Conference yukon::christian_v7

    RE:0

    The problem you present comes from a lack of understanding as to what
    "faith" is. "Faith," is a gift from God in that He reveals himself to us
    in some profound way. It is an experience with the divine being, God, 
    being present in our lives. A person who receives "faith," has no doubt
    about the existence of God or who He is.

    Religion, is the response to "faith." When we have experienced God, we
    then turn to ways of getting to know Him better and the better we know
    Him, the more we come to love Him and thereby worship Him. Most of
    us will seek out others who share this experience of faith. Its called
    church and for the most part, most of us will find  fellowship within
    the mainstream of religions.

    Those who claim God is dead, or that he does not exist, have not
    experienced the gift of "faith." To them, belief means believing
    and practicing of religion. However,  religion will become a yoke 
    to the person who lacks "faith." Their reaction to this will often be
    rebellion, because even though they don't have faith and religion has
    become non-sense to them, they still are seeking something which is
    beyond themselves. Their struggle has mostly to do with themselves,
    rather than what God is not doing for them. For them to acknowledge
    that there is a God, they must  look at their real selves. The must
    come to grips of who they are and what is their relationship with God.
    They come to the point of feeling like Adam and Eve did in the garden,
    after they sinned. They feel naked and feel they must hide from God.
    Knowing they can not hide, they cry out for some one to save them.
    Suddenly, through the power of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ comes to
    them and they feel redeemed. There is no greater joy, than the feeling
    of salvation, given to us through Jesus Christ. 


    I've rattled on, but this is what came to mind this morning as I
    wrote.  Its some of what I have experienced and what have come to
    believe.

    Jim

| <<< Note 580.1 by PCCAD::RICHARDJ "Living With A Honky Tonk Attitude" >>>


| Religion, is the response to "faith." When we have experienced God, we then 
| turn to ways of getting to know Him better and the better we know Him, the 
| more we come to love Him and thereby worship Him. Most of us will seek out 
| others who share this experience of faith. Its called church and for the most 
| part, most of us will find  fellowship within the mainstream of religions.

	Richard, then would you agree that PEOPLE'S views towards any
particular church really don't matter as the church's people only need
to please God, and not other people's views?

| to the person who lacks "faith."Their reaction to this will often be rebellion
| because even though they don't have faith and religion has become nonsense to 
| them, they still are seeking something which is beyond themselves. Their 
| struggle has mostly to do with themselves, rather than what God is not doing 
| for them. For them to acknowledge that there is a God, they must  look at 
| their real selves. They must come to grips of who they are and what is their 
| relationship with God.

	Jim, I really think this says it all. Thanks for writing it! 



Glen

    >Richard, then would you agree that PEOPLE'S views towards any
    >particular church really don't matter as the church's people only need
    >to please God, and not other people's views?
    
    It depends whether the people have a correct view of God or not.  Jesus
    said that He was the Way, the Truth, and the Life.  He went on to say
    that HE (Jesus) was the only way to the Father (John 14:6).  Romans
    5:8-10 says that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us, that
    we might be reconciled to God.  Now having been reconciled through His
    death, we are saved by His life!
    
    Now if your view of God is something other than what Jesus said,
    somebody's wrong.  Either Jesus was a lunatic, a liar, or He is Lord. 
    He's not just another prophet or just another god.  He is the risen Lord!
    He is the God of the universe!  He is Alive!  
    
    There is substantial evidence to support the resurrection of Jesus. 
    Most of His disciples ended their earthly lives as martyrs.  Would they
    have died for a lie?
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    Lots of people die for a lie.

    My proof that He has risen is that I've met Him.

    Glenn

    >Lots of people die for a lie.
    
    >My proof that He has risen is that I've met Him.
    
    >    Glenn
    
    I think it's both personal experience AND the evidence of scripture. 
    The Gospels and the book of Acts give us the accounts of how Jesus
    appeard to the disciples and MANY others after He rose from the dead.  
    Acts says that they witnessed Him ascending to the Father (Acts
    1:9-11).  My point was that the disciples had no motivation to create
    these accounts on their own and certainly would not have died if they
    KNEW they were covering up a lie.  It's just more evidence to affirm my
    experience.
    
    He's Alive and He lives in those who are His own! 
    
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    Don't you remember Waco?

    Let me add a conspiratorial note to this discussion.
    
    I'm of a mind that the missing link theory, as well as the basic theory
    that we have descended from apes, is a creation of Satan.  Why?  First,
    it tries to explain away the creation of the Bible.  It gives those on
    the fence a way to fall into the pit, by throwing out the entire word
    of God.  If Biblical creation is wrong, then the Bible cannot be the
    word of God (God is never wrong).  
    
    The secularists wish to make those who have faith look stupid or
    gullable, and mark them as people who believe in fairy tales and silly
    stories.  They attack religion.  Why?  Part of the answer is in reply
    .1, they run from God...perhaps without knowing it.  They must
    rationalize their choices in life.
    
    Another possibility is that many are not as secular as they
    claim...they are actually religious themselves, though one of a much
    darker origin.  They purposefully blaspheme and explain away God's
    word.  Many are teachers, psychologists, doctors, scientists, etc. 
    These "experts" get all the exposure, as their comrades control the
    media as well.
    
    Remember, our fight is with the principalities and powers of the earth. 
    
    I'll have to cut it off here...I have to go.  I'll try and expand on
    this and make it a bit more lucid later today.
    
    -steve (the conspiracy guy)

    And to take .7 one step further, by throwing away creation you have
    thus devalued life... 
    
    We are now as an animal equal to... 
    
    Of course I don't believe this.. but it makes sense.  
    
    My Pastor just spoke on this Wednesday night.

    As I've stated elsewhere, I don't really know enough about the
    evolution theory to throw it aside out of hand, but at the same time I
    don't think it accurate to say that a belief in evolution denies a
    belief in God. I've known people who believe in both.
    I do find it interesting that the order of creation according to Genesis
    is the same as the order of creation according to evolution (life
    starting in the sea, progressing onto land etc). 
    I don't pretend to know the answers as to how the earth was created and,
    to be candid, I'm not really that bothered about it :-)
                                      

Why would you believe the reports of finding the missing link?

Similar reports have come out before and later found to be frauds.
See note 25.*.  A good place might be 25.14.

Mark

    When I look at evolution, it makes me aware of how awesome God really
    is. Instead of a magical poof-type creation, God in his infinite
    wisdom, created a world that evolved and will continue to evolve until 
    its end. If the world did not evolve as it does, I don't believe life could
    exist in it. 

    Jim

Jim, how is evolution more awesome than ex nihilo creation?
Can you not bring yourself to believe in ex nihilo (out of nothing) creation?
Why or why not?

Mark

    We had a fellow by the name of Ron Carlson speak at our church a couple
    of years ago.  He refuted all of the major "scientific" evidence
    regarding evolution that is taught to us as fact.  I have his tape, I
    need to go back and listen to it again, so I can present his material
    in an intelligent manner.
    
    I remember him saying that the reason that the scientists keep pointing
    to evolution (and the big bang theory) is because they have violated
    one of the most basic principles of science.  They have eliminated a
    possible answer, before they begin searching for it.  The example was,
    its like scientist eliminated the number 4 as a possible answer to the
    question, "what is 2 + 2 = ?".
    
    Some of the stuff was like with one of the skulls that were put
    together to represent one of our supposedly "fore fathers".  The skull
    had a very large fore head.  This was presented on Dick Cavett.  Dick
    noticed a small portion in the back of the skull, which was made of of
    small bone chips.  When Mr. Cavett asked what that portion was, it was
    stated that those were the chips that the skull was reconstructed from. 
    Mr. Cavett then asked the scientist how they constructed the rest of
    the skull.  The answer was something along the lines that--that was how
    the pre historic man looked.  In other words, they reconstructed the
    skull to conform to their per conceived theory.  
    
    After listening to Mr. Carlson's lecture, I was convinced that it takes
    more faith to believe in evolution, than it does in creation.
    
    Julie, I used to be where your at.  It really didn't make a difference
    to me one way or another.  But the more I looked at it, it is a very
    crucial issue to the validity of the scriptures.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    Jim.
    
    re .1
    
    Good note.
    
    
    Patricia

    RE:12

    Mark, 

    ex nihilo ?  I don't understand the meaning of this.

    I believe God created the world from nothing, but that it evolved from
    that creation. Evolution is His way of creating the world in which
    we live. Evolution isn't something independent from God, but rather it
    is from God. 

    Jim

    .15
    
    Many believe this... however, check out the note on Creation/Evolution
    discussion that already exists you will find a very strong argument
    against such belief.
    
    

>    ex nihilo ?  I don't understand the meaning of this.
>

>>Can you not bring yourself to believe in ex nihilo (out of nothing) creation?
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I had the definition in the parenthetical remark.

Thanks, Jim.  My point was is should not be any more difficult to
believe that God went poof than to believe God took millions of years.
One might even ask in regard to creating things in six days, what took
God so long?

Mark

    re:16

    Nancy, 
          I don't know how you can say there is very strong arguments
    against evolution when we have concrete proof that man was different,
    as close as 500 years ago, than what he is today. 

    There are strong arguments against different types of evolution,
    i.e. what evolved from what etc., but creation does evolve.

    Jim

    > I don't know how you can say there is very strong arguments
    > against evolution when we have concrete proof that man was different,
    > as close as 500 years ago, than what he is today. 
    
    Survival of the fittest is very different from evolution from one life
    form to another, or from non-living matter to living matter.  Man may
    get taller, stronger, etc., but we aren't changing into another life
    form.
    
    >   There are strong arguments against different types of evolution,
    >   i.e. what evolved from what etc., but creation does evolve.
    
    Is this saying the same thing I said above?  There have been no
    intermediary remains found to show that one life form evolved to
    another life form (ie man from monkey).  There has been no evidence to
    show that living matter can evolve from non-living matter.
    
    

    .19
    
    Exactly

    I just looked at note 25.*.  There is much information in that note
    already, that is being restated here (I saw several of the things I
    just said, which were just rehashing note 25.*).  Should we continue the
    discussion over there (after looking at some of the previous entries, so
    we don't duplicate everything).
    
    
    Bing

re:17
>>    ex nihilo ?  I don't understand the meaning of this.
>>

>>>Can you not bring yourself to believe in ex nihilo (out of nothing) creation?
                                           ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>I had the definition in the parenthetical remark.

    Yeah, I saw it, but wasn't quite sure if it fit with the definition I 
    looked at in the dictionary.

>Thanks, Jim.  My point was is should not be any more difficult to
>believe that God went poof than to believe God took millions of years.

    It isn't difficult for me to believe either way. Its just that with the
    correlation between science and theology, I believe God created a
    world that evolves.

>One might even ask in regard to creating things in six days, what took
>God so long?
 
     True ! 
    
    I believe in an omnipotent God for those who are wondering.

    Jim

rep:19
    
>    Survival of the fittest is very different from evolution from one life
>    form to another, or from non-living matter to living matter.  Man may
>    get taller, stronger, etc., but we aren't changing into another life
>    form.
 
    Not all theories on evolution say that we evolved from another life
    form.  I don't believe we did. Neanderthal man was different than
    man today, well, perhaps for some they are the same.;) The point is
    that Neanderthal man was still human, but humans have evolved to higher
    degrees of intellect with different physical features over the
    millenniums.

       
    
>    Is this saying the same thing I said above?  There have been no
>    intermediary remains found to show that one life form evolved to
>    another life form (ie man from monkey).  There has been no evidence to
>    show that living matter can evolve from non-living matter.

      I think my point above should answer this.    
    

     Jim

>Jim, how is evolution more awesome than ex nihilo creation?
>Can you not bring yourself to believe in ex nihilo (out of nothing) creation?

Er, ex nihilo and evolution are not mutually exclusive.

/john

    G'day All,

    I didn't really want a Creation v Evaluation discussion it was more on
    the lines of our accepted norms, our feelings and fears.  I guess what
    worries me is that having had all these "facts" presented how will our
    children grow up.  As we are become more and more impersonal and
    society cares less and less for the poor and disadvantaged, I feel some
    of these theories are alienating from God and our fellow humans and the
    whole of God's creation is becoming a machanical equation.
    
    This alienation is causing me to reject the "facts" and rebel against
    these facts, I find that I am looking for shelter from God even more. 
    Is it because I cannot accept that I am a product of some statistical
    accident and related to apes does not do much good to myself esteem.  I
    find myself agreeing with some of your pro-God arguments :-).
    
    Regards,
    
    Sunil