Conference yukon::christian_v7

	
        If people thought I was a legalist a couple of years ago, they'll
        likely be convinced of it now. Indeed, legalism is the belief that
        obedience saves, and I certainly don't believe that. But legalism
        is also trying get get away with as much as you can under the
        letter of the law, while completely ignoring the spirit of the law.

	In this respect, kids are the world's best legalists. For example,
	you see one of your kids starting on a candy bar just before
	supper. You say, "Put that away, I don't want you to wreck your
	appetite before supper." A few minutes later, you see one of your
	other kids munching on a candy bar. You ask, "Didn't you hear me
	tell your brother not to eat candy just before supper?" The second
	one answers with, "Yeah, but you were talking to *HIM*, I didn't
	think you were talking to me, too."  We are just like that to God.
	

	
        Jesus made it clear that He came "not to destroy the Law." In fact,
        he magnified it. He made it clear that while you could obey the
        letter of the law, you could still violate the spirit of the law in
        your heart. He used murder and adultery as examples in Matthew
        5:21-22 and Matthew 5:27-28, respectively. In Mark 7, he
        demonstrates how the tradition of men had become more important
        than the commandments of God.

	Mark 7:6-9

                He answered and said unto them, "Well hath Esaias
                prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written. This people
                honoreth me with their lips, but their heart is far from
                me. Howbeit in vain do they worship me teaching for
                doctrines the commandments of men." (Jesus is quoting here
                from Isaiah 29:13)

		"For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the
		tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups and many
		other such like things ye do."

		And he said unto them, "Full well ye reject the
		commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition."

	Jesus then goes on to illustrate the tradition of Corban as a
	violation of the fifth commandment. 

        In searching the scriptures, I have come to find that most churches
        today violate the commandments of God to keep their own tradition.
        Sunday worship is one of the more obvious violations. Nowhere in
        Scripture could I find where the Sabbath was changed from
        FridaySunset-SaturdaySunset to Sunday12:00AM-Sunday11:59PM. Even
        worse, a lot of churches don't even think it's a big deal if people
        work or trade on the Sabbath, whatever day they observe as such.
        Try telling these same churches that Tithe is just as unimportant
        as the Sabbath in "New Testament" times. Sabbath observance was
        first mentioned in Genesis and was carved into stone by the very
        finger of God! You cannot find the same weight in scripture given
        to either tithe or "many other such like things ye do."

	Other clear violations are the celebration of pagan holidays while
	ignoring the Feasts of God. Christmas, Easter, Halloween, etc.
	Read Levitucus 23 to see what God's holidays are. He gave us seven
	annual Sabbath days, all of which Jesus Christ observed. When you
	read what God's holidays and feasts are, you will see that they are
	shadows and types of Messiah and God's plan! He was our Passover
	Lamb for us. He was the Firstfruits of the Resurrection. Pentecost
	brought the Holy Spirit into the Church. Trumpets announce the
	comings of Messiah. Atonement makes us compare what God has done
	for us with what we have done for Him. Tabernacles is God's
	Thanksgiving feast.

	Leviticus 23:21 "...it shall be a statute forever in all your
	dwellings throughout your generations."

	Leviticus 23:31 "...it shall be a statute forever throughout your
	generations in all your dwellings."

        God is not mincing any words, here. For those who say this is for
        the Jews only, read Romans 2:28-29 and related passages to see who
        is supposed to be a Jew today. 1st Peter 2:9 says that we are a
        Holy Nation, a peculiar people, a Royal Priesthood. This is what
        God told the Jews in Exodus 19:5-6! Sounds like the second child is
        saying, "Yeah, but you were talking to *HIM*, I didn't think you
        were talking to me, too."  

	Read Psalm 119. In almost EVERY verse, you will see "thy law",
	"thy commandments", "thy precepts", "thy word", "thy judgements",
	"thy statutes" .... God's law is forever. 

	As for the "churches" and their traditions, read about the seven
	churches in Rev ch 2 to ch 4. I'm afraid that things have really
	gotten away from God. I believe that by the time the apostles died,
	the churches were almost completely corrupt, with a few holdouts
	here and there. These holdouts were typically brutally opressed by
	the other "mainstream" churches that had compromised with pagan
	governments, adapting their ways and even their feast days, and
	synthesizing these things together to form a superstitious religion
	rife with specious ritual and ceremony.

	Jesus said, "The gentiles have princes over them, but it shall not
	be so amoung you. Whosoever would be the greatest amoung you, he
	shall be the servant of all." I don't believe that He would approve
	of the typical Church hierarchy, even in fundamental, independent
	churches. I believe that Pastor, Elder, and Deacon are offices, but
	they are *NOT* static, neither are they titles, they are *GIFTS* of
	the Holy Spirit. In most fundamental independent churches today,
	these have become titles and the sheep are expected to obey them as
	though they were princes. 

        We have been attending a couple of Sabbath keeping fellowships that
        meet in the homes of believers. These fellowships observe the
        Feasts of God and demonstrate a plurality of elders. The men are
        taught to lead their families in devotions and worship daily. One
        fellowship meets once a month, expecting the heads of families to
        lead Sabbath services for their families on the Sabbaths that they
        do not all meet together. Interestingly, all the families in these
        fellowships are homeschoolers, including us. 

        Anyway, this is where I am in my walk. We have been called
        heretics. It's interesting that most of the opposition has come
        from other Christians. Strange that one should be called a heretic
        for seeking obedience to God's commandments. We do not hold anyone
        to our standards, but we prefer fellowships that believe as we do
        and exhibit a desire to implement God's standards in their lives.

        God has continued to bless us each and every day, but there are
        dark clouds forming over our land, dear brothers and sisters, and I
        believe that the Lord is going to move soon to bring judgement to
        this nation. The winds of war are beginning to blow, as every-day,
        ordinary joes are talking about civil war to restore the
        constitution. The parade of unconstitutional legislation passed in
        just the last few months includes:

		NAFTA
		PDD-25
		The Brady Bill
		Goals 2000 Educate America Act
		Freedom of Access to Clinics Act
		The Crime Bill

	On the block and coming our way:

		The Health Care Bill
		GATT with WTO
		UN Treaty on the rights of the Child
		Freedom of Choice Act
		*** Rights Bill
		Brady II

	Each of these acts, bills, and treaties is rife with constitutional
	violations and perversions. Those enacting these things have no
	constitutional authority to do so, as they are sworn to uphold the
	constitution, not violate it. My concern is that there has not
	emerged among the opposition any having the faith or stature of
	Washington, Hamilton, Jefferson, Franklin, Henry, Coxe, Madison,
	Mason, Hancock, Stark, Pitt, etc.

        Today's Christians are supposed to be the Holy Nation of God, and
        we must begin to behave as such, to be salt and light unto the
        unbelievers, unless we want to suffer the indignation and judgement
        of our Holy and Just God. Too often, the unbeliever will say,
	"That's a Christian? Why would I want to be like them? There's
	nothing really different about them, except for their holier-than-
	thou snottiness." We are a much stronger witness in silent
	obedience to God, than we are in railing about the judgement of
	hellfire. Obedience to God by the Christians just might turn things
	around in this nation. This doesn't have to be the endtimes, but it
	certainly will be, at least for our nation (and us), if we don't
	seek God with all our hearts.

	2nd Chronicles 7:14
		If my people, which are called by my name [that's us,
		Christians!] shall
		^^^^^^
			[1] HUMBLE themselves and
			[2] PRAY and 
			[3] SEEK my face [seek to know His commandments] and 
			[4] TURN from their wicked ways [obey]
		then will I hear from Heaven, and will
			[1] FORGIVE thier sin and 
			[2] will HEAL their land
	
	May God protect, preserve, and keep us.

	Tony

>        God is not mincing any words, here. For those who say this is for
>        the Jews only, read Romans 2:28-29 and related passages to see who
>        is supposed to be a Jew today. 1st Peter 2:9 says that we are a
>        Holy Nation, a peculiar people, a Royal Priesthood. This is what
>        God told the Jews in Exodus 19:5-6! Sounds like the second child is
>        saying, "Yeah, but you were talking to *HIM*, I didn't think you
>        were talking to me, too."  

Tony (C),
  Are you trying to say that the "Jews" today are the Christians?  Then 
who are the Jews?  Isn't this replacement theology?

Galatians 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor
free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

  It seems to me that you've adopted some Jewish traditions (good for you)
but in the process think that makes you somehow the "real" Jew of Scripture.
Have I read this wrong?

As for the following verses:

Acts 2:28  For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that
circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
 29  But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the
heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but
of God.

This is a far greater warning against elevating the letter of the law
above the spirit of the law.  John the Baptist told the Pharisees that
it wasn't enough to be born of Abraham's line (Matt. 3:9), but did this
really negate their kinship?  Hardly.  Instead he was saying that with 
the territory of being God's chosen people comes the responsibilty to 
live according to God's laws.

Next, one could be brought into the nation of Israel and made a Jew,
and they would be bound to the Law as a Jew.  (Jewish scholars: feel
free to correct me if this part is in error.)

As the gentiles were coming to Christ, Acts 15 shows an issue about what
should be required of these converts in regards to Judaism and its Messiah.
Here's what Peter had to say about it:

7b Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice
among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel,
and believe.
  8  And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the
Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
  9  And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by
faith.
 10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the
disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
 11  But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall
be saved, even as they.
.
.
.
 19  Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the
Gentiles are turned to God:
 20  But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols,
and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
 21  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being
read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
 22  Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send
chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely,
Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
 23  And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and
elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles
in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia.
 24  Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have
troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be
circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
.
.
.
 28  For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no
greater burden than these necessary things;
 29  That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from
things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye
shall do well. Fare ye well.

I wish you well in your observances and may God bless you in them and through
them.  No doubt some others may benefit from adopting some of these for 
themselves, but I humbly disagree with your convictions about some of these
things being as "correct" as you seem to make them.

Mark

    Hello Tony,
    
    I couldn't have said it better myself.  People ignore the beauty of the
    Sabbath, which Jesus kept faithfully.  How can they justify this?  It
    isn't legalism.
    
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    | JESUS SAID:  "If you love me, keep my commandments"  John 14:15 |
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    
    God Bless,
    Janet

The Law of God in the New Testament
-----------------------------------

I.	"Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve".
    	Matthew 4:10

II. 	"Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen".  "Forasmuch then 
	as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead 
	is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device".
	1John 5:21; Acts 17:29

III.	"That the name of God and his doctrine be not blasphemed". 1Timothy 6:1

IV.	"Pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath 
	day". "And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not 
	man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the 
	sabbath". "For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this 
	wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works". "There 
	remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is 
	entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God 
	did from his". "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, 
	and that are in earth". 
	Matthew 24:20; Mark 2:27,28; Hebrews 4:4,9,10; Colossians 1:16

V.	"Honour thy father and thy mother". Matthew 19:19

VI.	"Thou shalt not kill". Romans 13:9

VII.	"Thou shalt not commit adultery". Romans 13:9; Matthew 19:18

VIII.	"Thou shalt not steal". Romans 13:9

IX.	"Thou shalt not bear false witness". Romans 13:9

X.	"Thou shalt not covet". Romans 7:7

>        And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not 
>	man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the 
>	sabbath".

What does this mean to you, Janet?

MM

Matthew 15:24-28

Jesus said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the
house of Israel.
 25  Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
 26  But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread,
and to cast it to dogs.
 27  And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall
from their masters' table.
 28  Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be
it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very
hour.

Who are the dogs?  Who is the house of Israel?
Next, we see that the great commission was first to Israel and then
to the rest of the (gentile) world.  Again, with the introduction of
the gentiles, what was required of them to observe from the law?

What is the spirit of the law of the fourth commandment?  Why is it
that it was made for man, and why should man observe it?  Is the spirit
of the law or the letter of the law tied to a particular day (Friday-Saturday)?

The dogs are the gentiles and the house of Israel are the Jews, God's 
chosen people.  The gentiles were not bound by Jewish law but were bound
by [the spirit of] God's law of love.  

My next note is a sermon from my dad some time ago, keyed in from an
audio tape about Sabbath Day Observance.

Mark

                               SABBATH DAY OBSERVANCE

          ...tape begins (I think after some paragraphs have been spoken).

          Personally, I'm thankful for the kind of Sabbath I was taught to
          observe because it seems to me that God gave me a special day.
          And it still means a great deal to me (although its my hardest
          day). Let's look then, basically, at these passages from the
          Scripture.

          First of all, we see that Jesus said that he did not come to
          destroy the law but he came to fulfill it. As we read Matthew
          5, 6, and 7, again and again these words ring out: "But I say
          unto you... Ye have heard that it was said of old time, But I
          say unto you..."

          And I believe that he was referring there, of course, to the
          heart of the Law which is the Ten Commandments. If you want to
          turn back in your song book to number 514, (as long as you've
          got them open, there), just for comfort, you'll notice the Ten
          Commandments in their entirety from the twentieth chapter of
          Exodus are here.

          "Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Thou shalt not make
          unto thee any graven image. Thou shalt not take the name of the
          Lord thy God in vain. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
          Honor thy father and thy mother. Thou shalt not kill. Thou shalt
          not commit adultery. Thou shalt not steal. Thou shalt not bear
          false witness against thy neighbor. Thou shalt not covet."

          All ten of these commandments, clearly stated, We don't have
          any trouble with nine of them. In fact, we understand that
          what Jesus was doing when he said that he related killing,
          for example, with anger; he related illicit or wrongful sex
          with lust; he equated having to have our statements oath-bound
          with just plain honesty as a way of life. We see that in every
          case, Christ's application of the nine commandments, at least,
          made them not something to be taken more lightly, but a deeper
          application.

          Jesus would have the Law written within us and internalize it.
          And yet, the Sermon on the Mount is strangely silent regarding
          the Sabbath. It doesn't say there, "Ye have heard how it was
          said of old, 'Thou shalt keep the Lord's day', but I say unto
          you, 'You shall really keep the Lord's day'."

          As a matter of fact, Jesus seemed to, by his practice and by
          his permitting his disciples, he seemed to want to break some
          molds when it came to keeping the Sabbath. Jesus did permit his
          disciples to break men's rules about keeping the Sabbath.

          You'll notice, one day, on a Sunday, - no, on a Saturday; on
          a Sabbath - he and his disciples were walking through a grain
          field. I have it pictured as a field of wheat because I've done
          the same thing myself. When wheat is really ripe, pick a few
          heads if your hungry and rub them out, blow away the chaff, and
          it gives you a nice something to chew, and its nourishing (I
          suppose). (I wouldn't want to make a diet of it.) But in rubbing
          out that grain, the disciples were harvesting, in the eyes of
          the people that would look on. Blowing the chaff away, they were
          threshing. And so they were breaking the literal law; they were
          doing what was wrong.

          And yet, when Jesus was rebuked for it by those who said,
          "You're not keeping the Sabbath the way that you should,"
          his reply was, "The Sabbath was made for man and not man for
          the Sabbath. And don't you know how David, our father, did..."
          thus and thus and so? (Remember how David, when he was running
          away from Saul, broke into a holy place and - well, he didn't
          break in; he burst in - and got the priest to give him the show
          bread from off the altar which was sanctified and separate; not
          supposed to be eaten by a lay person.)

          And Jesus, it seemed to me, almost made a point of healing on
          the Sabbath day. He commanded men to pick up their beds and
          walk. Of course, this was breaking the code; certainly doing the
          wrong thing as far as man was concerned.

          And so, while the Sermon on the Mount and pronouncements were
          pretty silent concerning the way the Sabbath should be observed,
          we've set up our own codes. We've set up our own ways of keeping
          the Sabbath. But Jesus did make some pronouncements about the
          Sabbath, and we've already read them.

          I like for us to lift up these pronouncements and look at them
          briefly, this morning. First of all, "The Sabbath was made for
          man and not man for the Sabbath." What can we get out of that
          pronouncement of Jesus?

          I infer from this that I need a day of rest and that this need
          is built in. it was found during World War II, when production
          was tremendously necessary, (we had to catch up), that a man who
          worked seven days a week, would produce less, in the long run,
          than a person who worked six days a week and rested one day.

          And, - I think I read just about every verse of Scripture about
          Sabbath observance and Sabbath from the Old and New Testaments
          in preparing this message - in one Old Testament passage it
          says, "keep the Sabbath so that your ox and your ass, and your
          manservant and your maidservant can have a day off, too." Even
          beasts appreciate rest. I don't know about machinery. But it
          seems to me that when Jesus says the Sabbath was made for man,
          there is a sense there in which we need - our bodies, our minds,
          our souls - need a day that's set aside; that's separate. And in
          a sense this is God's gift to us.

          We don't have to work six days a week. And that reminds me too,
          by the way, if you read that fourth commandment just right,
          it blesses work too. See that second verse there on page 524?
          "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou
          labor." So it doesn't say that we need two Sabbaths. I remember
          Prof. Naylor making a chapel speech, well over 25 years ago,
          and emphasizing the fourth commandment, part of it was "six
          days shalt thou labor. And if we really work six days, and give
          six honest days work, we'll need the seventh day." And I think
          that's a valid comment.

          But the Sabbath, in one sense then, is God's gift to man. And so
          we need to observe the Sabbath in the sense of need; from what
          we need.

          Then the second pronouncement: Matthew 12:12: "It is lawful to
          do well on the Sabbath day." Jesus healed. Jesus seemed like
          he made a point to be controversial on the Sabbath by doing
          that which wasn't generally done. "Don't you have six days to
          do those Miracles?" "Yes." But he made a point to say that it's
          good, it's well on the Lord's day, on the Sabbath day to do that
          which is good.

          I have a personal reference here. I think about how when I was
          first saved - well, after I came back to the Lord as a teenager
          - and had all that energy to burn on Sabbath days. I couldn't
          feature why it was the old people (meaning anybody over 25
          or 30), why they always seemed to get horizontal on Sunday
          afternoon and either listen to music or do something until they
          all went to sleep. I just didn't - I thought that was terrible!

          I remember in our youth group there at Akron First Church, and
          we had a live group, - I guess six or eight ministers came out
          of that group - but on Sunday afternoon, we used to get together
          and go to old folks homes and nursing homes - Joe Duncan can
          testify to that because he used to cart us before we all had
          driver's licenses. And we used to go around as much because we
          had so much energy we didn't know what to do with as that we
          wanted to do good but nobody ever criticized us. We lived in
          a Bible belt, in a legalistic place, in a sense. But you know,
          they never said that what we were doing was wrong. And we were
          burning up a lot of energy.

          I believe Sunday is a good time to think about and to do minis-
          tering to others on the Lord's day. It's a good time to think
          about others and to write a letter, perhaps; a letter that
          should have been written maybe a long time ago. Or make a phone
          call. Or go visit somebody that really would be lifted by your
          visit.

          Then the third thing Jesus says here: "The Son of Man is Lord
          also of the Sabbath." And in his own way, Jesus was saying,
          "this is where it all stops. You're criticizing me by the way
          I keep the Sabbath? I'm the Lord of all truth. All truth stops
          with me. And I'm the reason for the Ten Commandments and I'm
          the reason for the fourth commandment, too. I'm Lord also of the
          Sabbath."

          And I would just ask the question, "Is Jesus really the Lord of
          your Sabbath? Is your Sabbath open for inspection to the Lord of
          the Sabbath?"

          I know it's Old Testament but Isaiah 58:13 indicts the people
          for doing "thy pleasure on my holy day." And making the Sabbath
          merely a holiday. And if Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, then
          at least as Christians we ought to open our Sabbath to him and
          say, "Now, what would you have me to do? How would you have me
          observe the Lord's day?"

          And so my conclusion, this morning - it may be a lengthy con-
          clusion - but the last third of my message is "What shall our
          response be to the fourth commandment?"

          When we begin to make a response to this fourth commandment, we
          immediately say, "Now what did the early church do? What are our
          precedence? What does the New Testament say about how to keep a
          Christian Sabbath?" And you know there's not a whole lot, when
          you come right down to it.

          Most of our Sabbath laws, (if we can call them that), or a great
          many of them, come right out of own tradition; especially right
          here, in Boston. And some of you historians know a lot more
          about that than I do, but people could really be punished for
          doing things on Sunday.

          But I submit that the early church may have worshiped on the
          first day of the week as much because it was the end of the
          Jewish Sabbath as because Jesus rose on the first day.

          (... Tape flip ...)

          ...end of the seventh day. Now, you don't have to take that as
          gospel but the way I read the acts in the New Testament, the
          Christians largely kept both days. Most of them were Jews any-
          way. And it was the modus operandi of Saint Paul, for example,
          always to go to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, not necessar-
          ily because he felt bound to keep a Sabbath, but because that's
          when his congregation was there. And he was a learned Jew. And
          so he would go on the Sabbath day and they would say, "Here is
          a student of Gamaliel, a former member of the Sanhedren. We'll
          have him speak." And so he would reason with them and pretty
          soon he kind of had an M.O. like John Wesley. He would speak for
          a little while and then they would say, "Please don't ever come
          back here again. We don't want you anymore," because he would
          speak about Jesus being the Savior and the Lord.

          But, still they would keep the Sabbath day, in the sense that
          they would attend the Jewish worship on Saturday, and then the
          Christians would get together at the end of the Sabbath day.
          And, I don't know how it came about, but after a while they
          would keep the next day too. I'm certain that in the pagan
          world in which they lived neither Saturday nor Sunday were
          particularly sacred to the Romans or the other pagans. You can
          speak to that better than I can.

          When it comes to precedent, what the early church did is kind of
          hard for us to get our Blue Laws out of the New Testament. But
          what should the church in 1978 do? That's why I asked you at the
          beginning of the message, this morning, "Are you willing to be
          lead by the Spirit?" even though it cuts across convenience in
          your life; or it cuts across tradition; cuts across the way that
          you're doing now? Are you willing to do what the Holy Spirit
          would have you to do?

          If I had my way, I'd go back to a more legalistic Sabbath. I
          think it gives us, after we get used to it, it gives us more
          freedom; gives us a sense of rest. I have a member of my home
          that graduated valedictorian from this Eastern Nazarene College
          and never studied once on Sunday. I guess that's unheard of
          anymore, that you don't study on Sunday, but she figured that
          was her work and "six day shalt thou labor." She was super-
          organized.

          (H.B. London just crept into my speaking this morning. I said
          "super." I was going to try not to say "super" or "crumby." He
          said one of my words crept into his vocabulary, too. That was
          "understatement." I don't believe it.)

          I say she was super-organized in that she never studied after 11
          o'clock at night, as far as I know, either. She was just able to
          do that. And I'm not here to castigate anybody that studies on
          the Lord's day. I just said this is what I would like to see but
          what I would like to see isn't really important. What does the
          Holy Spirit want in my life, and in your life?

          I believe we do need to recognize our need for a Sabbath. And
          since God made the Sabbath for me, I will endeavor to keep one
          day special to Him. Will you go that far with me? Since God made
          a Sabbath built right into my system, built it into me, I will
          endeavor to make him Lord of my Sabbath. Will you do that?

          And then I would suggest that there are at least four things
          I can do on my Sabbath day or as I prepare for my Sabbath day.
          I will prepare my heart for worship. On my Lord's day, I will
          look forward to meeting God in a special way. And I believe we
          ought to pray every day, seven days a week; just like I believe
          we ought to eat every day. You know, you just can't go six days
          and then eat a great big meal and expect to go all week. But the
          Lord's day is something special. And I will seek to prepare my
          heart to meet Him.

          I believe many Christians can break the Sabbath or desecrate the
          Sabbath or break the fourth commandment on Saturday night, if
          they're not careful. For, I think, the Lord's day, we need to
          give our best to it. So I will prepare my heart for worship.

          And then on the Sabbath day, in a special way, I will seek to
          enter into God's word. What better day is there for in depth
          giving myself to the word of God? And I'm not just doing this
          selfishly but I want to give Sunday School a good plug right
          here.

          It seems to me that the church has got an hour set aside just
          for going into God's word. And if you find a class where there
          not digging into God's word, change classes. But Sunday is a day
          when I can enter into God's word in a special way.

          Now, once again, you ought to read God's word every day. But
          here's one day that's set aside. And as I say, "Sunday School is
          a natural, here." That's a good reason for Sunday School, too;
          not just to get a number up on the board, but to get God's word
          into my heart in a special way.

          Then on Sunday I will attend God's house and be a part of God's
          family. I will celebrate the church. I don't need to tell you
          that, here this morning. You're here. But that's one purpose,
          I believe, that God has given us a Lord's day so that we can
          get together and be part of the family and love each other, and
          celebrate worship.

          And then, lastly, the Lord's day is a time when I can assess
          my assignment to people. "It's lawful to do good on the Sab-
          bath day." And every one of us has to seek to be a minister in
          some way to other people. And the Lord's day, after we go home
          from being together, and worshiping and praying together, and
          listening to God's word together, it's a good time (instead of
          just settling back or roasting the preacher or doing something
          else) to say, "Lord, now, How'd I do this last week in serving
          You? How did I do this last week in being a blessing to other
          people? And is there anybody that you can think of to lay upon
          my heart today for this coming week - or today, even?" I believe
          the Lord's day is a good day to assess my assignment to people.

          I haven't totally succeeded, but I, at great cost to myself,
          have refrained from giving my personal convictions this morning.
          But I invite you to seek the Sabbath rest that God has for you.

          This closing hymn, (one of my favorites), number 283, I think
          applies in a very precious way to the Lord's day. And John
          Greenleaf Whittier said it so well. And as we think about the
          fourth commandment, and sing these four stanzas, let's ask
          the Lord to give us a new appreciation, raise our level of
          consciousness about all ten commandments, but especially this
          morning, "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy."

          Closing hymn: Dear Lord and Father of Mankind

          Dear Lord and Father of mankind, forgive our foolish ways!
          Reclothe us in our rightful mind; in purer lives Thy service
             find; in deeper reveernce praise.

          Drop thy stilldews of quietness Till all our strivings cease.
          Take from our souls the strain and stress, And let our ordered
             lives confess the beauty of Thy peace.

          Breathe through the heats of our desire Thy coolness and Thy balm.
          Let sense be dumb, let flesh retire; Speak through the earthquake,
             wind, and fire, O still small voice of calm!
          --------------------------------
          Rev. Russell F. Metcalfe
          Wollaston Church of the Nazarene
          1978

Does the Bible say we still need to keep the Ten Commandments?
  - Yes, of course it does (see John 14:15).  If you don't believe the Word of
    God then you should probably stop reading right here as the rest of this
    post will be boring to you.

You either believe that the Ten Commandments still need to be obeyed, or you 
don't. That's between yourself and God.

Personally, I believe that the Bible teaches that the Ten Commandments are 
still in effect, even in the New Testament, and still need to be obeyed.  I do 
not believe that this is legalism.  Let's look at it this way:
  - Is it okay to worship others gods?
  - Is it okay to bow down to graven images?
  - Is it okay to use the Lord's name in vain?
  - Is it okay to dishonor your mother and father?
  - Is it okay to kill?
  - Is it okay to commit adultery?
  - Is it okay to steal?
  - Is it okay to bear false witness against your neighbour?
  - Is it okay to covet your neighbors goods?

Then why do people have a problem with choosing to spend 24 hours with your 
Lord & Savior?  

I do not believe that we are saved by keeping any of the Ten Commandments or 
by 'doing' anything else for that matter.  We are saved by grace through faith
in our Lord & Savior, Jesus Christ.  I do believe that as a Christian we 
should behave the way Jesus behaved, and He kept the Ten Commandments.  He also
said that if we loved Him, we would do the same.  That's pretty simple.

Some say "I don't have to keep the Sabbath.  I worship the Lord everyday of 
the week".  That's fine, we all should worship the Lord everyday, but is that 
what Jesus asks us to do?  No, Jesus asks us to keep His commandments, and one 
of them is to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy".

The 4th Commandment separates God from all the other laws.  Do you realize 
that you can keep nine of the Commandments and not even be a Christian?  Even
people who don't believe in God keep some of the Commandments.  Even people
who are asleep keep some of the Commandments.  It is the 4th Commandment that 
lets us know that this is the God that made all things, and because of that we 
owe Him our allegiance and our time.  One way you prove your love is by giving 
your time.  

Some say "The Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross so we don't have to 
keep them anymore".  I don't see that the Bible teaches this.  It is the 
ceremonial laws (or sacrificial laws, if you prefer) that were done away with.  
The Bible teaches that the ceremonial laws ended when Jesus died for us because
they were no longer necessary but the Ten Commandments are still in effect.
There is a big difference between the two.
    
Our observance of the seventh day of the week as the Sabbath testifies to our 
faith in the true God as the Creator of all things, and is a visible expression
of that faith.  God established the Sabbath to be a memorial of creation, a 
weekly appointment for us to meet with Him.

Some say that they are keeping the Sabbath by going to church on Sunday.  They 
say the day was changed (even though there is NO Scripture for this change) 
and various reasons are given for the change, depending on your point of view 
or your church's specific spin on history:  i.e. "The Sabbath was changed to 
Sunday in honor of the resurrection.  We no longer honor the memorial of 
creation (Sabbath) but we now honor the memorial of re-creation because Christ 
rose on that day."  Sounds lovely, doesn't it?  And millions of loving 
Christians are doing this very thing.  However, the Bible doesn't say we are 
to do this.  A few things did change with the death/resurrection of Christ, 
but not the Ten Commandments.  A few things that changed are:  the veil of the 
temple was rent in two; animal sacrifices are no longer needed; circumcision 
is no longer the outward sign of God's people, baptism is;  the sabbaths (note 
the lower case "s" in sabbaths) or Jewish holy days were no longer required.  
BUT THE TEN COMMANDMENTS DID NOT CHANGE OR BECOME NULL AND VOID!

But wait....how can we be sure that Saturday is the seventh day?  How do we
know it's not Sunday?  Let's look at Luke 23:52 - 24:1.

       "This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus.
	And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a
	sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was
	laid. And that day was the preparation, and the sabbath drew on.
	And the women also, which came with him from Galilee, followed
	after, and beheld the sepulchre, and how his body was laid.
	And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and
	rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.  Now upon 
	the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they
	came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had
	prepared, and certain others with them."
                                       
Notice the three consecutive days mentioned here:
	-the preparation day
	-the Sabbath of the Commandment
	-the first day of the week
Nothing was better established among Christian scholars than that Jesus was 
crucified on the day we now call Good Friday and was resurrected on the day
we now call Easter Sunday.  The "Sabbath of the Commandment" is the day 
between Friday and Sunday.  That is our Saturday.  Simple enough?

Why would any of the Ten Commandments need to be changed?  Especially the 
Sabbath commandment, which came into effect in the Garden of Eden before sin 
was in this world?  Did God make a mistake?  Did He change His mind?  No, He 
is the same yesterday, today, & forever.

God's people at the end of time here on earth are spoken of as being 
"commandment keepers" (see Rev 14:12 & 22:14) so the Ten Commandments must 
still be in effect.  At least that seems reasonable to me.

Some people say that the Sabbath is a law only for the Jews. That is not true.
There were no Jews in the Garden of Eden (see Gen 2) only Adam and Eve, and 
they were God's brand new people. From that time on, God has always had people 
and the Sabbath was for them also, as it is for us today.  To make sure that 
the Sabbath should not be considered a Jewish institution, and cease with the 
Jewish nation, Christ emphatically declared, "the Sabbath was made for man" 
(Mark 2:27).  He added, "therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath" 
(v.28)  It belongs to Him; He is Lord of it.  It is "my holy day" says God 
(Isa 58:13).

The Sabbath is different from all the other feasts and holy convocations in that
it originated at creation (Gen 2:1-3), whereas the annual feasts and "sabbaths"
had their origin with the Jewish nation.  The seventh-day Sabbath "was made for
man" (Mark 2:27), and is an obligation for all men forever; the annual feasts
were made for the Jews and ceased to be an obligation at the death of Christ
(Col 2:16,17).

The weekly Sabbath is a divine institution given to man by God, the Creator,
and it's observance is required by God, the Lawgiver.

Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath.  If you reject or minimize or trivialize
the Sabbath, you are doing it to Jesus.

Some say that "we are no longer under the law, we are under grace". Absolutely!
But does this mean that the Ten Commandments are no longer in effect?  Does 
this mean you can break God's laws?  Absolutely not!  

	 Romans 3:31
	 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we
	 establish the law.

	 Romans 6:15
	 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under
	 grace? God forbid.

God has laws that we need to obey.  The first four of these laws concern our 
relationship with the Creator of the universe, and the last six concern our 
    relationship with the rest of God's people.  (Or 3 & 10, however you
    split them).

So, I guess the issue here is not legalism, but obedience to God.  As I said 
before:  You either believe that the Ten Commandments still need to be obeyed, 
or you don't.  That's between yourself and God.

Choose you this day whom ye will serve;..... but as for me and my house, 
we will serve the LORD.  (Joshua 24:15)

God Bless,
Janet Brown

      -------------------------------------------------------------------
      | The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God |
      |         shall stand for ever.    -Isaiah 40:8                   |
      -------------------------------------------------------------------

    With Jesus, everyday is the Sabbath.  

    
    The spirit of the law (the ten commandments) is Love.  Reread the Big
    Ten with the Greatest commandment in mind and you will get a different
    perspective.
    
     Dan

    Romans 6:14 says that we are no longer under law but under grace.  The
    next verse says that, "Shall we sin because we are not under law but
    under grace?  May it never be!"
    
    Romans 8:2 says that we have been set free from the law.  8:3-4 "For what
    the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did:
    sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering
    for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the requirement
    of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the
    flesh, but according to the Spirit."  8:5 "For those who are according
    to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who
    are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit."  8:6 "For the
    mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life
    and peace."
    
    Paul says in Phil 3:9 that his desire is that he, "may be found in Him,
    not having a righteousness of my own derived from the Law, but that
    which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which comes from
    God on the basis of faith."
    
    As Janet said, our salvation, and thus our acceptance, from God is
    based on His grace towards us.  Jesus repeatedly chastised the
    religious leaders for obeying the letter of the law, but never
    capturing the spirit of the law.  Religion focuses on the "Externals". 
    Jesus focused on the "Internals".  Jesus told us to abide in Him and HE
    would produce fruit through us (John 15:5).
    
    I believe we get off base so much of the time, because we focus on over
    coming sin.  We focus on DOING, rather that BEING.  We need to focus on
    BEING Intimate with the Jesus that dwells within us.  We need to set
    our mind on the Spirit, rather than on the flesh.  Obedience is
    important, but we can't be obiedient in our own power.  The order of
    things is of extreme importance.  The book "Classic Christianity" by
    Bob George shares what I believe is the correct order of things.  First
    we are to love God (we can't even do this without first receiving His
    love toward us).  Second we are to depend upon God (Abiding).  Third we
    are to obey God.  If our mind is set first and foremost on obeying
    God's commandments, without focusing on Him and allowing Him to live
    through us, we are going to end up living defeated lives.
    
    Are the 10 commandments still valid?  Sure they are.  God never
    changes, nor do His standards.  We are no more capable of living up to the 
    law, than the folks in the old testament were, however.  It is only in 
    realizing that we have been crucified with Christ (there is NOTHING
    good in our flesh) and allowing Christ to live through us that we can 
    experience His victory.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing   

    
    Bing
    
     good note.
    
     Gal5:16  says "Walk in the Spirit, and you will not fulfill the lust of
                  the flesh."  
    
       First Walk in the Spirit. We sometimes get it backwards as the
    Galatians did in chp3:3 "trying to do the works of the Spirit through
    the flesh"  Gal5:16  puts it in proper perspective and it is also a 
    promise.
    
    Dan

    Aside from the Sabbath issue, Tony has touched on something of which I
    have been thinking lately.  I even asked Steve M., to get me in touch
    with a Messaionic Jewish organization in my area.  Why?  Because I am
    increasingly aware that in order for me to truly know my God, I should
    look at his chosen people and the customs of the Bible that I so poorly
    understand.  
    
    The Jewish holidays are increasingly more important to me.  When I was
    younger [and in the faith], I was discouraged to pay any attention to
    those customs, that they were anti-Christian because the Jewish people
    did not receive Christ as Savior.  Now that I am older and my thought
    process is a tad bit longer, I ask myself what about the Jewish
    believers, how do they observe and respect the commandments of God in
    Christ Jesus?
    
    Nancy

    Congrats, Nancy!  Remember to view these holidays and customs with your
    Gospel glasses on ;-)
    
    Mike

RE: <<< Note 574.4 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

	Hi, Mark. Good to interact with you again! %^)

>>Galatians 3:28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor
>>free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

	Yes, and the very next verse says, "And if ye be Christ's, then are
	ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
	   ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^      ^^^^^
	1st Peter 2:9-10
	But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation,
	a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who
	hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light: which in
	time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which
	had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

        Exodus 19:5-6
        Now therefore if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my
        covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all
        people: for all the earth is mine: And ye shall be unto me a
        kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words thou
        shalt speak unto the children of Israel. 

>>It seems to me that you've adopted some Jewish traditions (good for you)

	The scripture calls them commandments. 

>>but in the process think that makes you somehow the "real" Jew of Scripture.
>>Have I read this wrong?

        If you believe in the salvation by faith in Messiah, and extended
        to us by the grace of God, then you, too, are a Jew, Mark. Not by
        replacement, but by adoption. 

>>This is a far greater warning against elevating the letter of the law
>>above the spirit of the law.

	Indeed, brother, but we cannot observe the spirit of the law and
	ignore the letter of the law, either. The spirit of the law is a
	condition of the heart that seeks to please God by obedience to the
	letter. When we are saved, our speeding tickets are nailed to the
	cross, but the law against speeding still stands. 

>>John the Baptist told the Pharisees that
>>it wasn't enough to be born of Abraham's line (Matt. 3:9), but did this
>>really negate their kinship?  Hardly.  Instead he was saying that with 
>>the territory of being God's chosen people comes the responsibilty to 
>>live according to God's laws.

	Amen. See the quotes from 1st Peter and Exodus above. 

[Acts 15]
>> 10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the
>>disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

	Wasn't this a reference to circumcision in the flesh? Does this
	really mean that God's commandments are null and void?
	
>> 19  Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the
>>Gentiles are turned to God:
>> 20  But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols,
>>and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
>> 21  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being
>>read in the synagogues every sabbath day.

        Exactly! Did James exclude the 10 commandments because he didn't
        think they were important any more? Does abstaining from strangled
        and blood mean the dietary law was still in effect? Are the com-
        mandments listed above in Acts 15:20 more important than the 10
        commandments or Passover observance? 

>> 22  Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send
>>chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely,
>>Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

	From what book did these missionaries preach to the Gentiles?

>> 24  Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have
>>troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be
>>circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:

	Indeed, one cannot be saved by circumcision and obedience. 
	Does this verse mean that converted Gentiles need not obey God's
	law, or does it have to do with circumcision and the traditions in
	the Mishneh?

	Could it be that James was referring to the words of Jesus adressed
	to the religious leaders of His day in Mark 7:8?
	
        "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of
        men, as the washing of cups and pots and many other such like
        things ye do"

	Thank you Mark for your sincere good wishes. You are indeed a
	brother. None of this will matter any more when we are at the feet
	of Jesus. But I do believe that it matters here on the earth, as a
	witness and the answer of a good conscience toward God. 

        God bless you,
		Tony
		

    The tile note speaks of New Winds.  I have to agree entirely.  The
    spirit of God is begining to sweep the land.  The scripture speaks of
    sending a strong delusion that they might believe a lie.  If Yahveh is
    indeed lifting the veil from the eyes of the people - watch out.  The
    corruption in this land goes much farther than most people realize.  We
    must turn back to Yahveh's laws.
    
    Obedience to the laws seems to be the primary thread in this note so
    I'll enter a little segment that I just put in a booklet that I'm
    writing to be called "The Government of God"; subtitled "A Timeless
    answer for a Christendom with little time left."  I don't have it in
    front of me, but I'll give you the genral idea.
    "God is unchanging.  Truth is timeless.  In the old covenant non
    Israelites could come under the covenant.  In the old covenant Yahvew
    gave the law in stone, and the spirit of the Lord came upon men
    sometimes, and sin was "forgiven" by a "perfect" blood sacrifice as
    type for the coming perfect sacrifice.  In the new covenant the law was
    written on their hearts(as promised), and the spirit of the Lord was
    dispensed to believers, and a sacrifice was still needed to forgive
    sin, but was fulfilled in the perfect sacrifice.  Christ and the
    apostles taught people who were already very familiar with the law. 
    They, therefore, did not teach the law as much.
    THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OLD AND NEW COVENANTS IS THAT THE 
    E M P H A S I S  IN THE NEW IS ON THE  S P I R I T  OF THE LAW BEING
    EVEN HIGHER THAN THE LETTER OF THE LAW(this was true in the old but
    because of the prevalent legalist, letter of the law is higher,
    traditions at Christ's time emphasis switched.  AND MORE IMPORTANTLY
    CHRIST FULFILLED THE BLOOD AND PRIESTLY TRADITIONS THAT WERE ONLY TYPES
    FOR HIM TO BEGIN WITH.  This lifted people from the curse of the law -
    the second death.
    
    Everyone thus far seems to be spending much time on the ten
    commandments as if that were the law.  They are only a summary of the
    law.  As any law is, they are virtually useless without the statutes
    and judgements.  In no way shape or form is it legitimate to argue that
    Christ did away with the laws of government.  They were not traditions,
    or rituals or such, they were THE law.
    example - The death penalty for violent criminals - 1st degree murder,
    rape and kidnapping.
    We are suffering not because we haven't kept a few of the laws here and
    there.  The rampant immorality that we see now is a consequence of our
    previous disobedience FOR NOT ESTABLISHING THE FORM OF GOVERNMENT
    (KINGDOM) THAT GOD TOLD US TO.
    
    The word church as used in scripture is terribly abused today.  The
    concept of separation of church and state(if you want to go on about
    this write a new note), is so alien to scriptural government AND to the
    foundations of our nation, it is ridiculous to argue it.  For thousands
    of years the church, the local government, and the community were
    thoroughly intertwined.  Until we establish LOCAL judges that are
    judging YAH's laws, and not mans, and until we become active in our
    LOCAL community and government and inextricably link the body of
    believers(church) to that, we will go nowhere, but down.  THAT is what
    we must repent of- FAILURE TO ESTABLISH A CHRISTIAN KINGDOM.  Seek ye
    first the kingdom of God.  
    
    The whole earth travails.  Even the new agers which are the farthest
    off the deep end believe that NOW IS THE TIME.  They sense the "new
    winds".  They know we are on the verge of a new age.  Believer and
    non-believer alike know that now is a crucial period.  We MUST repent
    and ESTABLISH THE KINGDOM- i.e. ENFORCE GOD'S LAWS on the local level.
    The plan established by God was NATIONAL COVENANT - LOCAL GOVERNMENT.
    National Covenant - being his laws/covenants.  Local government being
    believers everywhere with judges enforcing his law.
    
    Well, I kinda hit you with the punchline of my booklet, but you don't
    have the pages and pages of historical, and biblical background and
    substantiation, or gradual development of logical argument.  Your also
    missing some very important aspects, but alas this isn't the booklet.
    
       This is love - that we keep His commandments.
    
       Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep His commandments.
    
       Anyman that says I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a
       liar and the truth is not in him.
    
    Rich

    Just be careful not to be tossed to and fro with every "new wind" of
    doctrine.
    
    No one, Jew or Gentile, will be saved or earn an ounce of G-d's favor
    by observing *any* commandment.
    
    IF one wishes to be saved, one *must* have faith in G-d and His Promise
    - the Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth.  Such a person is a believer; and
    believers *are* expected to do good things, trusting that He is working
    through them (see Ephesians 2, James 2, and Galatians 2:20 - see Romans 
    14 for the argument of who's doing what right and how that ought to be
    handled).
    
    Believe me - I'm a fan of the Torah and enjoy it with all my heart, but
    its observance doesn't earn me a thing with G-d....the Work He did for
    me from before the foundation of the world - *that* and that alone is
    what allows me to have fellowship with G-d.
    
    Observe as you see fit and be convinced in your own mind.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Steve

      Hi,
    
        Just a quickie,
    
        It is incorrect to maintain that every day is a Sabbath.
        This is what the word says.
    
        In Hebrews 3,4 there is a long discussion of REST.  In this
        discourse, the continuous rest in Christ is spoken of quite
        a lot.  Never is the Greek inclusive of Sabbath rest.  The
        Greek makes it clear. (I'll look up the Greek word for this 
        at home.)
    
        However, the author of Hebrews does link the continuous rest
        in Christ to the Sabbath rest when he says, "There remains 
        therefore a rest [sabbatismos] to the people of God."
    
        One can do a word study of rest where it refers to the continuous
        rest in Christ.  It is never sabbatismos or sabbaton.  It is not
        the same thing as Sabbath rest.  However, they are linked by
        scripture.
    
        Resting in Christ continually is not the Sabbath rest.  
    
        And "there remains therefore a Sabbath rest [sabbatismos] to
        the people of God."
    
        In other words, that rest which is not the continuous rest in
        Christ, but which can only be entered into as one has that 
        continuous rest in Christ, _still remains_.
    
        It is the Sabbath rest which according to scripture takes
        place on the seventh day.
    
        That's what Hebrews says.
    
                                                       Tony

RE: <<< Note 574.18 by JUPITR::MESSENGER "The discerning heart seeks knowledge PR 15:14" >>>

    Amen, Rich!!

�        It is the Sabbath rest which according to scripture takes
�        place on the seventh day.

I understand this to be the millenium...

	That your take too, Tony?

							Andrew

RE: <<< Note 574.19 by POWDML::SMCCONNELL "Next year, in Jerusalem!" >>>

>>    Just be careful not to be tossed to and fro with every "new wind" of
>>    doctrine.

	Hi, Steve.

        The new winds refer not to new doctrines, but to a new spirit of
        obedience to the existing doctrines in scritpure. We are told to
        "seek the Ancient Paths" and that we be not "tossed to and fro with
        every new wind of doctrine." If I have introduced any new doctrine,
	please help me to understand my error. I mean this sincerely. 
    
>>    No one, Jew or Gentile, will be saved or earn an ounce of G-d's favor
>>    by observing *any* commandment.

	I pray that none have construed my entries to suggest otherwise.

        Obedience to God's law, word, statutes, ordinances, judgements,
        precepts, is meant to provide effective witness in the gathering
        storm. It is for lack of obedience to such that God's "name is
        blasphemed among the heathen." It was for their transgression
        against such that the nation of Israel was destroyed.

	Please read Psalm 119. Virtually every verse reveres "thy law",
	"thy word", "thy statutes", "thy precepts", "thy judgements" ...

        Obedience to God's law, word, statutes, ordinances, judgements,
        precepts, also have to do with the answer of a good conscience
        toward God.

        I do have a few questions that may be addressed better in a new
        topic. Is there any salvation without repentance? What does it mean
        to make Jesus your Lord? What about Matthew 7:21-27? 

	Respectfully,
            Tony
	

.18>    Everyone thus far seems to be spending much time on the ten
.18>    commandments as if that were the law.  They are only a summary of the
.18>    law.

.18>       Hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep His commandments.

.18>       Anyman that says I know Him and keepeth not His commandments is a
.18>       liar and the truth is not in him.

What were Jesus' *commandments* regarding the Sabbath?

We have Jesus, a Jew, observing the Jewish sabbath and breaking traditions
of the sabbath because "it is lawful to do good on the sabbath."  But
Jesus give no *commandment* about the sabbath.  Why?  He's a Jew and
it was his custom to be in the synagogue on the sabbath.

Mark 2:27  And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man
for the sabbath:
 28  Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

--------

>    THE ONLY DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE OLD AND NEW COVENANTS IS THAT THE
>    E M P H A S I S  IN THE NEW IS ON THE  S P I R I T  OF THE LAW BEING
>    EVEN HIGHER THAN THE LETTER OF THE LAW

You are correct.  And yet I believe it is an error to say that observing
the letter of the law is in fact observing the spirit of the law.  It is
the cart before the horse.  Consider this exchange between Jesus and a
Samaritan woman:

John 4:19-24

 19  The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.
 20  Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem
is the place where men ought to worship.
 21  Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall
neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.
 22  Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is
of the Jews.
 23  But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship
the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
 24  God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit
and in truth.

Jesus is saying that the Jews know God and know the forms of worship in
the law; they are proper to worship in Jerusalem.  Salvation is of the 
Jews.  But "the hour cometh" when you Samaritans won't worship on this
mountain, or we Jews won't worship in Jerusalem (per se).  Instead, "the
hour cometh, and now is," when true worshippers -- what? worship on 
the sabbath?  what?  worship in Jerusalem as a proper Jew observing the
law should?  what? worship in grass huts or fine cathedrals? --
True worshippers  s h a l l   w o r s h i p   t h e   F a t h e r   i n
s p i r i t   a n d   i n   t r u t h.

Now, if you can only find that worship in spirit and truth on Friday-Saturday
Jewish Sabbath, again, more power to you.  I'm glad for you.  I am happy that
you are finding it especially meaningful.  But Jewish sabbath keeping is not
a requirement for worshipping God; nor is it breaking the commandment to
remember the sabbath day to worship on Sunday at 11 am.

Mark

P.S.  Do the sabbath keepers among us labor for six days?

.10 Janet  TOLKIN::JBROWN

>Then why do people have a problem with choosing to spend 24 hours with your
>Lord & Savior?

Sunday worshippers don't have a problem with choosing to spend 24 hours
with our Lord and Savior.

>Do you realize  that you can keep nine of the Commandments and not
>even be a Christian?

I disagree.  If you break any of the nine, then you break the first.

>It is the 4th Commandment that lets us know that this is the God that made all
>things, and because of that we  owe Him our allegiance and our time.  One way
>you prove your love is by giving  your time.

Still no problems.

>Some say "The Ten Commandments were nailed to the cross so we don't have to
>keep them anymore".

No one in this conference claims this!  Being free from the law means to
be bound to the FULFILLMENT of the law and not the law itself.

>Some say that they are keeping the Sabbath by going to church on Sunday.  They
>say the day was changed (even though there is NO Scripture for this change)
>and various reasons are given for the change, depending on your point of view
>or your church's specific spin on history:  i.e. "The Sabbath was changed to
>Sunday in honor of the resurrection.  We no longer honor the memorial of
>creation (Sabbath) but we now honor the memorial of re-creation because Christ
<rose on that day."  Sounds lovely, doesn't it?  And millions of loving
>Christians are doing this very thing.  However, the Bible doesn't say we are
>to do this.

See Paul's commandment regarding Gentile observance of Jewish law.

>Some people say that the Sabbath is a law only for the Jews. That is not true.
>There were no Jews in the Garden of Eden (see Gen 2) only Adam and Eve, and
>they were God's brand new people. From that time on, God has always had people
>and the Sabbath was for them also, as it is for us today.

The sabbath was given by God to Moses, commemorating the seventh day.
There was NO COMMANDMENT GIVEN ABOUT THE SABBATH PRIOR TO MOSES.
Where does it say that Adam and Eve observed a sabbath?

>The seventh-day Sabbath "was made for man" (Mark 2:27), and is an obligation
>for all men forever;


Au contraire.  An obligation?!  What is the purpose of the sabbath?
Rest and worship.  Consider these verses:

Romans 14:5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every
day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
  6  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that
regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth,
eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the
Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

Colossians 2:14  Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against
us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his
cross;
 15  And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them
openly, triumphing over them in it.
 16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an
holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

>Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath.  If you reject or minimize or trivialize
>the Sabbath, you are doing it to Jesus.

Jesus' declaration was to show that traditions are not reason to obeserve
the Sabbath, and violated some of men's traditions about the sabbath.
He made the sabbath for man and did not make us so that we would be
tied hand and foot by it.

Mark

.17  Tony  WRKSYS::CAMUSO

>>>It seems to me that you've adopted some Jewish traditions (good for you)
>
>       The scripture calls them commandments.
>
>>>but in the process think that makes you somehow the "real" Jew of Scripture.
>>>Have I read this wrong?
>
>        If you believe in the salvation by faith in Messiah, and extended
>        to us by the grace of God, then you, too, are a Jew, Mark. Not by
>        replacement, but by adoption.

  Grafted into God's family, but still a Gentile.  The only way I can
  become a Jew is to adopt the laws and customs of Judaism.

>       Indeed, brother, but we cannot observe the spirit of the law and
>       ignore the letter of the law, either. The spirit of the law is a
>       condition of the heart that seeks to please God by obedience to the
>       letter. When we are saved, our speeding tickets are nailed to the
>       cross, but the law against speeding still stands.

  How is this different that the legalism that the Pharisees preached,
  Tony?  (Mind you, we're friends and I'm not calling you a Pharisee.  I am
  asking what the difference between your rationale is and the rationale
  the Pharisees gave?

  Indeed, Jesus told the Pharisees, these things ought ye do (tithe their
  mint and cummin, according to the law, and not neglect the weightier
  things of the law, such as justice and mercy).  We also know that the law
  brings DEATH, for by the law we are condemned.  Again, I offer Romans 14:

  Romans 14:5  One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth
  every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
    6  He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that
  regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth,
  eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to
  the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

  How does this square with "being obedient to the letter to obey the
  spirit of the law?"

>[Acts 15]
>>> 10  Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the
>>>disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
>
>       Wasn't this a reference to circumcision in the flesh? Does this
>       really mean that God's commandments are null and void?

  It means that God's commandment to circumcise the Jew was NOT to be
  applied to the gentiles as some said it should.

>>> 19  Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the
>>>Gentiles are turned to God:
>>> 20  But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols,
>>>and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
>>> 21  For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being
>>>read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
>
>        Exactly! Did James exclude the 10 commandments because he didn't
>        think they were important any more? Does abstaining from strangled
>        and blood mean the dietary law was still in effect? Are the com-
>        mandments listed above in Acts 15:20 more important than the 10
>        commandments or Passover observance?

  No, they are not more important, but what this is saying is that "we're
  not going to hold you gentiles to Jewish law.  There is a greater law in
  effect; the law of Love.  The letter of the law is the codification of
  the spirit of the law but FAILS miserably because of its rigidity.  The
  idea is to 'love God and do right.'  It was given to Jews because they
  apparently needed something a bit more defined than Deut 6:4-5.  The fact
  that these were added to, it became such a burden than we're actually
  going back to Deut. 6:4-5 and living by it.  The Spirit of the law
  preceded the letter of the law.  if you need some rules to help you out,
  avoid the idols, quit screwin' around, and watch out for these kinds of
  foods."

>>> 22  Then pleased it the apostles and elders with the whole church, to send
>>>chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely,
>>>Judas surnamed Barsabas and Silas, chief men among the brethren:
>
>       From what book did these missionaries preach to the Gentiles?

  I would GUESS that they used the prophecies, like Isaiah, to show the
  coming of Messiah.  Do you think they preached Jewish laws, or Christ
  come to save people from their sin?

>>> 24  Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have
<>>troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be
<>>circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment:
>
>       Indeed, one cannot be saved by circumcision and obedience.
>       Does this verse mean that converted Gentiles need not obey God's
>       law, or does it have to do with circumcision and the traditions in
>       the Mishneh?

  Not obey God's law?  Of course it doesn't mean (or imply) that.
  It does mean that Gentiles are not bound to Jewish law, though,
  even though they are bound to God's law.  Perhaps you have the two
  mixed up, since God gave the summary of the law to Moses.

  God gave a law to the Jews.  To all of us, the "law" of love
  is to be written on our hearts.

>       Could it be that James was referring to the words of Jesus adressed
>       to the religious leaders of His day in Mark 7:8?
>
>        "For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of
>        men, as the washing of cups and pots and many other such like
>        things ye do"

  Which commandment do you think they laid aside?

Mark

Steve McConnell

>    IF one wishes to be saved, one *must* have faith in G-d and His Promise
>    - the Messiah, Yeshua of Nazareth.  Such a person is a believer; and
>    believers *are* expected to do good things, trusting that He is working
>    through them (see Ephesians 2, James 2, and Galatians 2:20 - see Romans
>    14 for the argument of who's doing what right and how that ought to be
>    handled).

Thanks Steve.  

Mark

    Heavens - don't thank *me*, Mark....
    
    (I know what you mean, though, and you're welcome....)

      re: .24
    
      Hi Mark,
    
        Can you show me where in the Bible the seventh day Sabbath
        is termed the Jewish Sabbath?  I cannot.  I believe it is
        God's Sabbath and it is He who rested there first.
    
        I labor the other six days Mark...all the while, I hope I
        am also resting in Christ!
    
        The Sabbath rest requires the continuous rest in Christ and
        yet is not the continuous rest in Christ.  The six days of labor
        can be done while resting in Christ.
    
                                                    Tony

>        Can you show me where in the Bible the seventh day Sabbath
>        is termed the Jewish Sabbath?  I cannot.  I believe it is
>        God's Sabbath and it is He who rested there first.

I thought I had when I said that the sabbath day observance was 
given to Moses.  Is this not correct?  Was the sabbath day observance
given to Adam, Abraham, or Noah?

>        I labor the other six days Mark...

What?  No vacations?  What?  No Sunday outings with the family?
Do you always labor six days?

Please understand, I'm making a point about strict adherence to the
literal letter of the law.  Oh, and is that 6 24-hour periods, or
sun up to sun down?

Mark

      Hi Mark,
    
        On the basis that God 'made' the Sabbath day way back in
        creation week and that it was actually 'reinstituted'
        BEFORE the giving of the ten commandments, my interpretation
        of the word is that God's followers did Sabbathkeep since
        the time of Adam.   When the Israelites had the miracle of
        the manna experience, the context does not suggest one iota
        that this Sabbathkeeping thing was brand new.
    
        So I believe it was given to Adam.
    
        I appreciate what you said about the letter of the law.  I
        have rested other days.  I suppose personal conviction as to 
        what it means (IN SPIRIT) to "Remember the Sabbath day to keep
        it holy" is important.  My conviction is that the **7** part
        of the commandment is still important and was not a fleshly
        addition to the ten commandments.
    
        For me, it would include not being hung up if I rested on another
        day.  Or having a problem with doing certain things on the Sabbath
        under certain circumstances.
    
                                                   Tony
                                         

	One cannot observe the spirit of the law if he does not have the
	letter to instruct him. As for Sabbath observance, God says:

		. do no servile labor
		. have an holy convocation
		. do no buying or selling

        He says the other six days you shall work, but he does not say that
        you cannot rest or have convocations those other six days. He is
        just saying that you can do servile labor any time during the other
        six days.

	As for daily necessities and emergencies,

                LUK 13:15  The Lord then answered him, and said, Thou
                hypocrite, doth not each one of you on the sabbath loose
                his ox or his ass from the stall, and lead him away to
                watering?

                MAT 12:11  And he said unto them, What man shall there be
                among you, that shall have one sheep, and if it fall into a
                pit on the sabbath day, will he not lay hold on it, and
                lift it out?
 
                MAT 12:12  How much then is a man better than a sheep?
                Wherefore it is lawful to do well on the sabbath days.
   
	The spirit of the Sabbath commandment is summarized in Isaiah.

                ISA 58:13  If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath,
                from doing thy pleasured on my holy day; and call the
                sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and
                shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding
                thined own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:d 

                ISA 58:14  Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and
                I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the
                earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father:
                for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
     
	Days (yomim) are from sunset to sunset, as defined in Genesis.
	Nowhere in scripture has this been changed.

        Regards,
		Tony
		

	Sabbath was made for man, man was not made for the Sabbath.

	God's Law was made for man, man was not made for God's Law.

	Does this make a little more sense now? It means that we are to
	obey God's laws because they are good for us. We live for God, so
	we obey His commandments, observe His ordinances, adhere to His
	statutes, abide by His judgements, apply His precepts, and study
	His Word. 

        These things are good for us. When we fail, we sin. If we confess
        our sins, God is faithful and just to forgive us and cleanse us
        from all unrighteousness. Unfortunately, we usually have to live
        with the consequences of sin, even though our sins have been
        forgiven.

	Regards,
		Tony

Note 574.31  YIELD::BARBIERI 
>        On the basis that God 'made' the Sabbath day way back in
>        creation week and that it was actually 'reinstituted'
>        BEFORE the giving of the ten commandments, my interpretation
>        of the word is that God's followers did Sabbathkeep since
>        the time of Adam.   When the Israelites had the miracle of
>        the manna experience, the context does not suggest one iota
>        that this Sabbathkeeping thing was brand new.

Your interpretation is that God's followers did Sabbathkeep is
mere speculation.  My observation stands according to what is 
written.

================================================================================
Note 574.32  WRKSYS::CAMUSO 
>	One cannot observe the spirit of the law if he does not have the
>	letter to instruct him. As for Sabbath observance, God says:

 True, but the spirit of the law transcends the letter.  The spirit of 
 the sabbath observance as you say:

>		. do no servile labor
>		. have an holy convocation
>		. do no buying or selling

  ...is perfectly observed on any day of the week.

>	Days (yomim) are from sunset to sunset, as defined in Genesis.
>	Nowhere in scripture has this been changed.

 Garth Weibe may have something to say about this.

================================================================================
Note 574.33 WRKSYS::CAMUSO 
>	Does this make a little more sense now? It means that we are to
>	obey God's laws because they are good for us. We live for God, so
>	we obey His commandments, observe His ordinances, adhere to His
>	statutes, abide by His judgements, apply His precepts, and study
>	His Word. 

I have no problem with this, Tony.  What I have a problem with is saying 
that the observation of the Jewish Sabbath or observing another day *as*
sabbath has anything to do with keeping or violating the spirit of the
fourth commandment, ESPECIALLY in light of Romans 14.

Mark

        Jesus said, "If you love me, keep my commandments."

                1st John 5:2 By this we know that we love the children of
                God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
	 
                1st John 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his
		                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
                commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.
		^^^^^^^^^^^^  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

	God's commandments are not designed to make us grumble about how
	mean old God doesn't want us to have any freedom. They are designed
	to prevent us from harming ourselves, and others, and the testimony
	of God. I think we have freedom cofused with license, today. People
	don't use the word liberty much anymore. Liberty connotes responsi-
	bilities. Like self-esteem replacing self-respect. Self-esteem is
	vain, while self-respect is based on accomplishment. 
	 
	God gave the commandments to Moses. Jesus said to keep His
	commandments. Jesus said, "I and my Father are one."

	Consider the following.

                1st Cor 10:9  Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them
                also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
	 
                1st Cor 10:10  Neither murmur ye, as some of them also
                murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
	  
        Paul is talking about the nation of Israel in the Exodus, when they
        were groaning about their travails in the wilderness, tempting
        Christ. That means Christ was there! This passage equates the God
        of Israel with Christ Jesus. 
	
        It was Jesus that gave Moses the commandments. The commandments and
	laws are Messiah's.

	Regards,
		Tony
	

Tony C, 
  Do you follow all of the Torah?  Why ot why not?

Mark

What does observing another day *as* sabbath have anything to do with 
keeping or violating the spirit of the fourth commandment, ESPECIALLY 
in light of Romans 14?

MM

Genesis 26:5  Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my
commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

Exodus 15:26  And said, if thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the
Lord thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear
to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these
diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord
that healeth thee.

Exodus 16:28  And the Lord said unto Moses, how long refuse ye to keep my
commandments and my laws?

Exodus 17:1  And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed
from the wilderness of sin, after their journeys, according to the commandment
of the Lord, and pitched in Rephidim: and there was no water for the people to
drink.

Exodus 20:6  And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep
my commandments.

Exodus 24:12  And the Lord said unto Moses, come up to me into the mount, and
be there: and I will give thee tables of stone, and a law, and commandments
which I have written; that thou mayest teach them.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is apparent that God had some commandments before the law was given.
Were these the same commandments that we consider the 10 commandments in
Exodus 20?  Are we following the same commandments that God gave to Abraham
in Genesis 26:5?  Was it a commandment for Abraham or for all people that 
God gave to "get thee out of thy country (Gen 12:1)?  Does God give the
same commandments to all people at all times?  Does God give commandments
to some people differently than to other people?

It is my opinion that a focus on sabbathkeeping for anything other than
to express the fourth commandment on a *particular* day of the week, is
to apply legalism to other by claiming that it is one of God's immutable
laws; "it" being what exactly?  What is immutable is the spirit of the law
and NOT the letter.  The letter is helpful in understanding the spirit, but
NO PRIDE can be taken in observing the letter of the law as if by doing so
God is more pleased, or by doing so some prescription has been fulfilled.

It is interesting that on the one hand, there is a particular idea as to
what "remember the sabbath day to keep it holy" means, but "six days shalt
thou labor, and do all thy work" is modified by the spirit behind the words.  
It applies a different standard of interpretation to these two parts of the 
same command!

Every Christian must indeed follow Christ's commands!  I don't like the 
implication that by not worshipping on a Saturday instead of a Sunday that
a Christian is NOT following Christ's commandment, or God's commandment
for that matter (being One in the same).  There is too much Scripture 
to say that it simply is not so.

Mark

RE: <<< Note 574.36 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

>>  Do you follow all of the Torah?  Why ot why not?

	Mark, it is the condition of the heart, and the desire to exhibit a
	good witness, and to obtain the discipline that will be required in
	the dark days ahead that have led me in this direction. 

        We follow the law of the Old Testament in our Bible to the best of
        our ability to understand and implement it. We are not perfect, but
        we seek to be, becuse Jesus said, "Be ye perfect even as your
        Father in heaven is perfect."  Is the Old Testament Law in the King
        James Bible the same as the Torah? I don't know. Perhaps someone
        can enlighten me.

        With the exception of the animal sacrifices and temple rituals,
        (which are replaced by the perfect sacrifice and high priesthood of
        Jesus - Heb), we observe the Holy days and feasts as described in
        Leviticus 23 and Deuteronomy. Sometimes we share these feast days
        with others of the same persuasion, at their home or ours.

        In fact, we are observing Tabernacles now. Yesterday and next
        Tuesday are Sabbaths. I logged in from home yesterday specifically
        to post the base note. I did no servile labor, nor did I buy or
        sell. We had an observance at home, complete with a study, psalms,
        songs and praises. It ran a little longer than our usual devotions.
        We have not erected a tent (booth) to live in this year, as we are
        new at this and unprepared. We may do so next year, as the Lord
        provides. It would be a neat adventure to live outdoors this time
        of year, God willing and health allowing. New England ain't
        Palestine. %^)

        We observe the Feasts and Sabbaths that Jesus observed. The weekly
        sabbath He observed went from FridaySunset to SaturdaySunset. We
        observe this weekly Sabbath because it is the one that He honored,
        and He is not a God of confusion, that everyone may have his own
        day to observe Sabbath. God is very specific, as He was with the
        tree in Eden. We do not light the candles nor eat the challah
        bread (though we know of some that do) because that is not, to my
        knowledge, required by Scripture.

        We do not believe that circumcision of the flesh is required,
        because Paul said that it is the circumcision of the heart, the new
        creature, that makes the difference to God. There is OT scripture
        to support him in this, though I haven't got the references handy. 
	
	We cannot minister the OT civil law, as we are not a civil law unto
	ourselves, but must yield this to the secular civil authorities who
	God has seen fit to put into power.

        Regards,
		Tony
		

    You might do well to seek advice from some Messianic Jews, or other
    Jews to find out what the Torah has to say is required, which Jesus
    most certainly would have observed.
    
    I did find it interesting that you don't think circumcision is 
    no longer required, when it is a law of Moses, which Jesus observed.
    Yet, you haven't addressed the Romans 14 passage with regards to the
    sabbath.  As for God not being the author of confusion in reference to
    God being specific, why is it that you think that circumcision is no
    longer applicable... did God change His mind on this commandment or is
    there something deeper to it than it simply being a commandment?
    
    Q1:  What is the spirit of the law with regards to the fourth
         commandment?
    
    Q2:  What is the letter of the law - the letter - with regards to the
         fourth commandment?
    
    When you answer these two in succession, with comment, I hope, I'll
    comment further.
    
    Please understand that I am NOT attempting diminish your
    sabbath-keeping one iota.  I am only trying to show you that the
    Firdaysunset to Saturdaysunset is NOT the requirement to fulfill the
    fourth commandment.
    
    Mark

    I saw in one of the other notes that the reason most Christians attend
    church on Sunday is because that was the day that Jesus was
    resurrected.  It seems appropriate to celebrate His life.  What
    difference does it make if it's Saturday or Sunday?  Jesus healed the
    blind man on the sabbath by spitting on the ground, making mud, and
    rubbing it on the man's eyes.  He could just as easily have done the
    same thing with out breaking the "rules" of the sabbath.  What if your
    neighbors needed their grass cut, but were unable to do so due to
    illness.  Would it be a sin to cut it for them (on EITHER Saturday or 
    Sunday)?  Jesus is more concerned about our attitude than whether we get 
    all the details right or not.  He HAS fulfilled the requirement of the Law.
    The purpose of the law is to cause us to turn to Him.  He is more concerned
    about our dependance on Him, than on whether we are DOING all the right 
    things.  If we are abiding in Him, HE will produce fruit through us.   
    Christianity can NOT be condensed down into a set of rules or principles.  
    Christianity is all about RELATIONSHIP.
    
    John 6:28-29 "They said therefore to Him, 'What shall we do, that we
    may work the works of God?'  Jesus answered and said to them, 'This is
    the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent.'"
    
    Love in Jesus,
    
    Bing 
      
    
    
    "Watch over your heart with all diligence, For from it flow the springs of 
     life." (Proverbs 4:23).

	As for Romans 14, please read it again, Mark, with God's continuity
	in mind. Does it really mean that any day can be a sabbath, or is
	it connected more with fast days? Where in Romans 14 does Paul
	specifically mention the Sabbath? 

        Does "happy is the man that condemneth not himself in that thing
        which he alloweth" mean "if it feels good do it"? Of course not. It
	is more likely to mean, "happy is the man that doesn't do anything
	to bring shame upon himself."

	Circumcision as a requirement to fullfill the law is explicitly and
	repeatedly obviated by passages in Acts, Romans, Galations, and
	probably others. There is no such repudiation of Sabbath
	observance. As I said, there is OT support for the NT position on
	circumcision, and I will try to have those references for you
	tomorrow. 

        "Let no man judge you ... in meats ... holy days ... sabbaths" from
        Colossians does not repudiate the Sabbath nor the holy days nor the
        dietary proscriptions. It simply says, "Let no man judge you..."
        This could as likely mean to observe these to provide a good
        witness to believers and unbelievers alike. Many are the
        unbelievers who know that Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays,
        and who know that the Bible provides a different list of
        observances. 
	
                2nd Peter 3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our
                Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also
                according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto
                you;
  
                2nd Peter 3:16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in
                them of these things; in which are some things hard to be
                understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable
                wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own
                destruction.

	Do you think that Peter here is worried about people taking Paul's
	writings too conservatively?

	God bless and keep you,
		Tony
		

    .42
    
    I think you've read the Scriptures thinking that keeping the sabbath
    means friday-saturday, and you've found some "proof texts."  I don't
    think your proof-texts standalone and must be accompanied by the
    thinking that keeping the sabbath means friday-saturday.  I think that
    you are not in error to observe the sabbath on the same days as Jews
    do.  I do think you are in error if you believe that Sunday worshippers
    violate the law of God.
    
    Would you state it as clearly as that?  Sunday worshippers are
    violating God's law regarding the Sabbath?  
    
    Secondly, what is the disposition of those who violate God's law?
    
    Mark

RE: <<< Note 574.41 by ODIXIE::HUNT >>>

	Hi, bing

	-< Relationship NOT Religion >-

	Yes! Please see 574.32 to see your concerns addressed there. 

	Regards,
		Tony
		

    In Strongs concordance, sabbath in the OT means "intermnission"
    and in the NT it means "day of weekly repose from secular avocations
    (also the observance or institution itself)"
    
    So a literal translation is "Remember the intermission day"
    The Jews traditionally had this as friday/saturday.
    
    Tony, are you a converted Jew?
    And my other questions still apply as does Colossians 2:16ff.

>>    And my other questions still apply as does Colossians 2:16ff.

	Please read 574.42 again to address this. Remember that the
	"handwriting of ordinances" is your speeding tickets. The law
	against speeding still stands.

	The Law was not nailed to the cross.
	Sin was nailed to the cross.

>>    Tony, are you a converted Jew?

	I was not born a Jew. I was made "seed of Abraham and heir
	according to the promise" the day I decided to make Christ my Lord.
	
	As for your other questions, I will deal with them in a more
	general treatment soon.

	Regards,
		Tony
		

    >        Please read 574.42 again to address this. Remember that the
    >       "handwriting of ordinances" is your speeding tickets. The law
    >       against speeding still stands.
    
    Romans 6:10 "For the death that He died, He died to sin, once for all;
    but the life that He lives, He lives to God."
    
    Christ for ALL our sin--past, present, and future.
    
    >       The Law was not nailed to the cross.
    >       Sin was nailed to the cross.
    
    1 Corinthians 15:56-57 "The sting death is sin, and the power of sin is
    the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our
        ---
    Lord Jesus Christ."
    
    Rom 6:6-7 "knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, that
    our body of sin might be done away with [made powerless], that we
    should no longer be slave to sin; for he who has died is freed from
    sin."
    
    Paul said that the power of sin IS the Law.  He further stated that
    those who are believers have been CRUCIFIED with Him, and that sin has
    been made powerless.  The purpose of the law is FULFILLED when we come
    to know Jesus Christ.  Romans 7:6 says that, "we have been released from
    the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve
    in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of letter."
    
    Rom 8:3-4 "For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the
    flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and
    as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that
    the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk
    according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit."
    
    
    Galatians 3:19-20 "For through the Law I died to the Law, that I might
                                             --------------- 
    live to God.  I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I
    who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the
    flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me, and delivered
    Himself up for me."
    
    We are made "new creatures" when we come to know Christ.  He gives us a
    new nature.  He comes to live inside of us.  He will light our paths
    and direct our steps as we walk in intimate fellowship with Him.  Our
    righteousness is in Him, not in observing laws.  When set our mind on
    the Spirit, we will DESIRE to walk in His ways.  If the Spirit has led
    you to observe the Sabbath on Saturday, then great!  But we are no
    longer bound to the Law.
    
    Gal 3:21 "I do not nullify the grace of God; for if righteousness comes
    through the Law, then Christ died needlessly."
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing 

    
    Excellent Bing!

>	Please read 574.42 again to address this.

I don't have to.  It does not address it, except the way you think 
it addresses it.

Fact:  The sabbath was given to Moses (not before) to the people of 
       Israel out of Egypt.  It was given for man to commemorate God's
       rest from his labor on the seventh day.

Tradition: The Jewish sabbath has occurred on Friday-Saturday (F-S)
       since before the rest of the world named these days after the
       Roman gods (Saturn's day - I forget Friday's god).

Interpretation #1:  because God gave the sabbath to Israel, and Israel
       observes the sabbath on F-S, then God >intended< all men to 
       rest/worship on F-S.  

Interpretation #2:  because a gentile is adopted into God's family, 
       we are considered "God's People" and since God's people are
       the Israelites (Jews), we are also made "seed of Abraham and heir
       according to the promise" (taken from Gal 3:29), and since we are
       made the seed of Abraham, we should follow Jewish tradition
       because Moses and the Israelites were also a seed of Abraham.

Fact:  Galatians talks of a spiritual inheritance and not a physical one:

Galatians 3:26  For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
 27  For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
 28  There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is
neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
 29  And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according
to the promise.

       I am not any less male by being in Christ, therefore being one in
       Christ Jesus means something different.  I am not any less a gentile
       by being in Christ, therefore being one in Christ Jesus means something
       different.

Fact:  Paul opposed Peter when Peter was persuaded by the circumcision group.
       The circumcision group believed that a person could only become a 
       Christian if they first became a Jew (through circumcision), because
       the Messsiah came to the Jews.  Paul argued that it was unnecessary
       to require gentiles who come to Christ to observe Jewish law, but
       instead commanded them regarding matters that pertained to the spirit
       of the law (worshipping other gods, sexual impurity, and eating blood).

Interpretation: requiring the sabbath to be F-S for Gentiles is NO DIFFERENT
       than requiring Gentiles to become circumcized to be Christians.
       NO DIFFERENT!  Why?  Go back to Fact 1: the sabbath was given to
       Israel, not the gentiles.  We know the reasons it was given to 
       Israel, and we agree to the spirit of those reasons.  We do not
       agree that F-S is necessary to keep the spirit of the fourth 
       commandment.

Fact:  The 10 commandments are a condensation of the 613 (631?) Jewish laws.
Fact:  Jesus further condensed the 10 and the 613 to two commandment based
       on Deut. 6:5 and "love your neighbor as yourself."

Interpretation:  One keeps the spirit of the law by obeying the letter of
       the law.

Alternate interpretation: one keeps the letter of the law by keeping the 
        spirit of the law.

Fact:  Jesus violated sabbath code -- but did NOT violate the sabbath spirit!

Interpretation:  Jesus was showing that the understanding of the sabbath
       was NOT to be a legalistic one, but that it was made for man to 
       rest and enjoy God and to do good things on.  No where, except
       by implication of Jewish observance, does it maintain that this
       weekly intermission HAS TO BE F-S.  No Where!  God didn't maintain 
       it - not according to His word.  It is interpretation to say that
       this is so.

>        "Let no man judge you ... in meats ... holy days ... sabbaths" from
>        Colossians does not repudiate the Sabbath nor the holy days nor the
>        dietary proscriptions. It simply says, "Let no man judge you..."
>        This could as likely mean to observe these to provide a good
>        witness to believers and unbelievers alike. Many are the
>        unbelievers who know that Christmas and Easter are pagan holidays,
<        and who know that the Bible provides a different list of
>        observances. 

This to is interpretation, and I disagree with it pretty strongly.
The passage in Colassians is warning against legalism, plain and simple.
It is not talking about providing a good witness.  (Witness for what 
purpose?)

Fact:  Jesus said the "true worshippers" of God will worship Him in 
       spirit and in truth, not on this mountain or in Jerusalem.

Interpretation: the form and function of action (F-S observances, for example)
       is NOT the key to true worship.  Can true worship happen on F-S
       observance?  Certainly.  Can TRUE WORSHIP, acceptable and approved
       of God happen on a day other than F-S?  Absolutely.

More, but I have to go now.

Mark

	Hi, Bing.

	Do you think that Paul means that we can do whatever we think is
	right in our own eyes now that we're saved? Or do you think he
	might be trying to say that salvation is of grace, not of the law,
	for "by the works of the law is no flesh justified." Please re-read
	.42 with special attention to the warning from 2nd Peter at the
	bottom of the note. Also consider the following verses from Paul's
	pen under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. 

        Romans 3:31
        Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid:  yea, we
        establish the law.

        Romans 6:2
        God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer
        therein?

        Romans 6:15
        What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but
        under grace? God forbid.

        Romans 7:7
        What shall we say then? [Is] the law sin? God forbid.  Nay, I had
        not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except
        the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

        Romans 7:13
        Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But
        sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which
        is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding
        sinful.

        1 Corinthians 6:15
        Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ?  shall I
        then take the members of Christ, and make [them] the members of an
        harlot? God forbid.

        Galatians 2:16-17
        Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but
        by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus
        Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not
        by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no
        flesh be justified.  But if, while we seek to be justified by
        Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, [is] therefore Christ
        the minister of sin? God forbid.

        Last night we visited some friends for supper and fellowship. I
	told my 5-year-old daughter that she was not to run in the house of
	our hosts. Later that night, I saw her zipping along in the living
	room, so I called her to me. "Didn't I say that you were not to run
	in the house?" She replied, "But Daddy, I wasn't running, I was
	skipping."  A true legalist. She was able to obey the letter of the
	law while violating the spirit thereof.

	Why do we think that the spirit of the law provides us with
	license? Why are we always seeking loopholes in the law to see how
	we may circumvent it?

        Jesus explained the spirit of the law, being the condition of the
        heart, as follows. If you so much as think a sin, you have commited
        it. If you are compelled by law to carry a burden one mile, carry
        it two. If there is a judgement in court against you, pay double.
        Can you imagine anyone paying double for a speeding ticket? Do you
        think this might provide a good witness to unbelievers? Indeed it
	seems that the spirit of the law would compell us to cheerful
	obedience and overabundant compliance.

        How then does the spirit of the law grant us more leniency than the
        letter? Well, if you had to rush someone to the hospital for
        emergency treatment, you would have to violate the speed law, as
        indeed you should. There are weightier matters. There is an
        hierarchy to any just system of law. However, this is an
        extenuating circumstance. How often is it that we have extenuating
        circumstances that cause us to violate one of God's laws that we
        may keep a weightier one?

        I struggled for months trying to find a loophole to circumvent
        obedience to God's Sabbath. Finally, I surrendered, asking myself
        why it was I would go to so much trouble to avoid the law when it
        was simply easier and better to obey. When this decision was made,
        I found a peace. Bondage is in disobedience, not obedience.
	
        Indeed, there were consequences with respect to fellow believers in
        our congregation. Traditions are well entrenched. We sought 
        fellowships of like persuasion.

	Regards,
		Tony

        In bearing witness of the gospel recently, my correspondent replied
        that he believes in a kinder, gentler god than the one in the
        Bible. I have to ask, "How much kinder and gentler a God is there
        than one who would die for you?"

	My concern has been for the witness of obedience, the answer of a
	good conscience toward God, and preparation and discipline for the
	storm that I believe will overtake this land soon. I do not pretend
	to be any less a sinner than anyone else, and I certainly have
	enough of my own struggles in the flesh to deal with without
	pointing out those of others. 

        As for the condition or status of those who don't observe Sabbath
        or observe it on a different day, or those that observe Christmas
        and Easter instead of the feasts of God, it is between them and
        God. Let God's Word speak for itself, and let the hearts of the
        readers respond accordingly. Let every man be convinced in his own
        mind, it is certainly not for me to judge another man's servant.
        Indeed, God is magnified and many are the good works and much is
        the fruit from Sunday-keeping folk. My personal take is that God
        can do mighty works more in spite of our condition than because of
        it, and because He is most merciful and gracious, certainly moreso
        than we.

        If you told your son to rake the front yard and he didn't do it,
        you would be upset with him. If he raked the back yard instead, you
        would probably be a little annoyed. In both these cases, your
        relationship to him would still be father-son, though his
        fellowship with you may be affected to a degree commensurate to
        your level of displeasure and tempered by your sense of grace and
        mercy.

        If he raked the front yard as you asked, you would be pleased that
        he performed according to your commandment, and his fellowship
        with you would be unhindered. If he raked both the front and the
        back yard, you would be pleased that he performed above your
        expectations and his fellowship with you might be enhanced.

        Please do not misconstrue this as saying Sabbath-keeping, Feasts-
        of-God folk are better in God's eyes than Sunday-keeping, Christ-
        mas-Easter folk. This parable is meant as a general treatment of
        our application of all of God's Word to our lives. We are all
        sinners and can be saved only by the grace of God through faith in
        the Messiah. One day, we must all give account of our entire lives
        before the Almighty King of the Universe. We are one day closer
	even now. 

	God bless, protect and preserve you,
		Tony	
	

>        Indeed, God is magnified and many are the good works and much is
>        the fruit from Sunday-keeping folk. My personal take is that God
>        can do mighty works more in spite of our condition than because of
>        it, and because He is most merciful and gracious, certainly moreso
>        than we.

Please think more closely on this.  Would God do mighty works through
Sunday-keeping folk if they were >violating< the spirit of His commandment?

>        If you told your son to rake the front yard and he didn't do it,
>        you would be upset with him. If he raked the back yard instead, you
>        would probably be a little annoyed. 

If you told your oldest son to rake the front yard, and told your youngest
son to go and rake the yard, which yard should the youngest son rake?
This is more in line with the Scriptures, because Sabbath was given to 
Israel.  The principle meaning of the sabbath is a "weekly intermission."
F-S is legalism.  Weekly intermission is not legalism.  (Unless either
are observed in the spirit of the sabbath.)

Mark

    Tony,
    
    No where have I stated or implied that being free from the law gives us
    license to sin.  If fact I have been careful to include the verses in
    context, so that it is clear that we have been freed from the "power of
    sin."  Romans 6:1-4 addresses this, "What shall we say then?  Are we to
    continue in sin that grace might increase?  May it never be!  How shall
    we who died to sin still live in it?  Or do you not know that all of us
    who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His
    death?  Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into
    death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the
    glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."  We are
    FREED so we can walk in newness of life!  Rom 6:7 "He who has died is
    freed from sin."
    
    Its not just NOT obeying laws that is sin.  Romans 8:8 says that,
    "those who are in the flesh cannot please God."  Hebrews 11:6 says,
    "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to
    God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek
    Him."  As I said earlier, the Lord desires that we DEPEND upon Him;
    that we ABIDE in Him.  It is not our PERFORMANCE but what Christ has
    done for us that we are made acceptable to Him.  It is not our PERFORMANCE 
    but Christ living through us.  He loves me because I am His.
      
    Will God contradict the commandments in His word?  No.  But I don't
    view the bible as a list of rules either.  God's written Word points us
    to the LIVING Word--that we might know Him (Phil 3:10).  I view it sort
    of as the difference between living FOR God and allowing Him to live
    through me.  In the first its MY commitment and drive.  In the second,
    its realizing that "I" no longer live, but Christ lives in me.  Its
    realizing that its not what I can do for Christ, but what He has done
    for me and DOES through me.  There is nothing that I can do to make
    myself worthy in His sight.  Its what He has done for me that HAS MADE
    me righteous.  Romans 8:1 says, "There is therefore now no condemnation
    for those who are in Christ Jesus.  For the law of the Spirit of life
    in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death." 
    Even when we blow it, we are acceptable to Christ, based on what He has
    done for us.  When we really understand this kind of love and
    acceptance, it provides more motivation than an external law ever will. 
    An example I heard goes like this:  The state of Georgia has laws on
    the books for proper treatment of children by their parents.  Am I
    motivated by these laws?  No, I am motivated by my love for my
    children.  I will always go far above the requirements of the law,
    in providing for my children, training them up, and in providing a
    loving and secure environment for them to grow up in.
    
    My desire is that I, "may be found in Him, not having a righteousness
    of my own derived from the Law, but that which is through faith in
    Christ, the righteousness which comes from God on the basis of faith."
    (Phil 3:9)
    
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

RE: <<< Note 574.53 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

>>Would God do mighty works through Sunday-keeping folk if they were
>>>violating< the spirit of His commandment?

	Hi, Mark.

        David the adulterer-murderer violated the spirit and letter of
        God's commandments. Yet God Himself calls David a man after His own
        heart and continued to do mighty works through him, even in his
        trangression. Psalms 51 and 119 reveal why this is so, as they
        reveals the true nature of David's heart. God used Balaam's donkey,
        too. There isn't one sin under the sun which we have not committed,
        at least in our thoughts. Each of us is capable of the most heinous
	crime he can imagine. God is mighty, God is gracious, God is
        merciful, God is love.

>>If you told your oldest son to rake the front yard, and told your youngest
>>son to go and rake the yard, which yard should the youngest son rake?
>>This is more in line with the Scriptures, because Sabbath was given to 
>>Israel.  The principle meaning of the sabbath is a "weekly intermission."
>>F-S is legalism.  Weekly intermission is not legalism.  (Unless either
>>are observed in the spirit of the sabbath.)

        If I told them both that I wanted the yard raked Friday, I would
        expect to come home from work that evening and see it done. I would
        not be pleased to hear one of them say that he would get his share
        done the next day. Christ observed His intermission FridaySunset to
        SaturdaySunset. I want to be like Him. If you believe that this is
        legalism, I don't expect to be able to change your mind. Label me a
        legalist, and let's get on with our lives and service to Christ.

	Your legalist brother, %^)
		Tony
	

RE: <<< Note 574.54 by ODIXIE::HUNT >>>

	Hi, Bing.

        Excellent reply. We agree. You have either misread my motives, or
        have tried to assure that nobody else does. I just want to say that
        I believe that Christ living in me wants me to observe the Feasts
        and Sabbaths that He established and observed. It is the love of
        Christ, the fear of God, the desire to provide a good witness of
        obedience, and discipline for hardship that motivate me. I endeavor
        not to do these things out of any righteousness of my own or to
        seek any reward or to embarass or disparage those that don't.

        Many people speak of being on a different level of their walk with
        God. I would offer that we are all pretty much on the same level,
        but that God is applying us to different areas, that God has called
        some of us to do things which others of us may not understand.
        Different members of the body, if you will, performing more
        distinctly discreet functions. 

        There are indeed new winds blowing across this land. You have
        probably seen some changes in your churches and among the
        congregations, unlike the usual falling-out and falling-away. 

	Tony

    Allow me to ask a clarifying question, please.
    
    Tony - are you saying that one *must* observe the f-s Sabbath?  Or are
    you saying that you are now doing so, and would encourage others to do
    so as well?
    
    Or are you saying something else entirely? ;-)

RE: <<< Note 574.57 by POWDML::SMCCONNELL "Next year, in Jerusalem!" >>>

>>    Tony - are you saying that one *must* observe the f-s Sabbath?  Or are
>>    you saying that you are now doing so, and would encourage others to do
>>    so as well?

        More the latter than the former, Steve. I'm still pretty much
        surprised in the change in my heart with respect to this matter. I
        still have heartpangs in the flesh for Christmas, but I cannot in
        good conscience observe it anymore. Though, I confess, my ideal of
	Christmas has never materialized and is more a romantic stylization
	than anything else. Still, when cleaning up the file cabinet last
	week, I ran into "Baby's 1st Christmas" stuff. We are a sentimental
	race and steeped in the traditions of our fathers, not all of which
	are Godly.

	However, Thanksgiving has no pagan origins of which I am aware. ":^P'

	Regards,
		Tony
    

      Hi,
    
        I just want to touch on Romans 14 and I will mention
        something which I have mentioned several times in the
        past without any response.
    
        An exegetical interpretation includes incorporating the
        historical reality of the time something was written.
    
        Had ANY CHRISTIANS not been seventh-day Sabbath keepers 
        at the time of the writings of Romans 14, scripture would
        have mentioned this.  I base this on the mention of the 
        Judaizing influence (Galatians and Acts).
    
        To put another way...it is inconceivable that the Judaizing
        element would not have complained about non-Sabbathkeeping
        should such have been going on.  (Just as they complained
        that people were not getting circumcized.)
    
        It is nonexegetical therefore to apply Romans 14 to seventh
        day Sabbathkeeping for historical reality is not being taken
        into the context.  Far be it from us to apply Romans 14 to 
        that which Paul _does not apply it_.
    
        Paul would have been AMAZED if people were applying Romans 14
        to the ten commandment law of God.
    
        But, I will add this...
    
        I see it as possible that Romans 14 DOES apply to seventh-day
        Sabbathkeeping.  But, only in so far as the broad principle of
        not pointing out practises where the person is not convicted.
    
        BUT (and this is crucial), the above does not imply that not
        Sabbathkeeping is still not sin which is transgression of the
        law (according to 1 John).
    
        It simply means that people are accountable to the light they
        have and if one isn't ready for more light, it ought not be
        given - even if the light is in the realm of obedience to God.
    
        Rahab the harlot is a good example.  She hid the spies by lying.
        She was not accountable to that.  And it is possible that at
        that point in her personal experience, she was not ready to 
        receive that light, i.e. "Rahab, you sinned!!"
    
        We must be convicted in our own mind.
    
        AGAIN, this does not mean that anything we are presently not
        convicted of is not sin.
    
        God winks at our ignorance and He'll progressively reveal how
        we fall short of His glory.
    
                                                God Bless,
    
                                                Tony

      re: .51
    
      BEAUTIFUL REPLY!!!
    
                                           Tony

>        If I told them both that I wanted the yard raked Friday, I would
 
And that is my point.  God has not told the Jews and the Gentiles to
rake the yard on Friday.  He has only told the Jews to do so.  The
Gentiles are not bound by this.

>        I want to be like Him. If you believe that this is
>        legalism, I don't expect to be able to change your mind. Label me a
>        legalist, and let's get on with our lives and service to Christ.

Being like Christ and being like a Jew, are they one in the same?
Jesus was a Jew, no doubt about that.  Was any Gentile required to
become "like Christ" in His Jewishness?  No!  That's what the tiff
was about over circumcision.

If you feel that being like Christ by observing F-S as sabbath is a good
thing for you, then fine, wonderful, great!  But Sunday worship is NOT
akin to David's sin (and is NOT a sin at all), and you are WRONG to imply
such a thing.

The next thing to ask is whether God gives one rule to one child that
he does not give to the other.  The answer is yes and no.  No, because
the spirit of the law must be observed; yes, because each child it to 
fulfill his purpose.  A grafted branch is still a grafted branch and
not the original.  Adoption changes the legal state of a child - as if
the child was genetically born into the family, but it is a legal
writ and not an actual one.

MM

RE:  <<< Note 574.61 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

	Hi, Mark.

        I happen to believe that you are wrong about this. If you adopted a
	child into your house, into your inheritance, would you not expect
	him to adhere to the same commandments as your biological children? 

        Well, now there are two things over which we disagree. Rock'n'Roll
	and Sabbath/Feast observances. :-}

	God bless and keep you,
		Tony
		

    May I share what I think the disconnect is?
    
    
    (yes, you may)
    
    Thank you!
    
    (you're welcome)
    
    :-)
    
    
    I can imagine those early believers from the nations, having come from
    histories full of idol worship and confusion to learn of the One True
    G-d, the G-d of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, the G-d who honored His
    Promise and brought for the the Messiah....and I can imagine them
    wanting nothing to do with their old way of life and even seeking
    formal conversion to Judaism as believers in the Jewish Messiah.  I
    don't see any problem with this, and would go so far as to suggest that
    even Paul, who argued so strongly against "juadizing" wouldn't have
    been too upset with this either.
    
    However, the minute some crossed the line (even our friend Peter
    slipped here!) and *DEMANDED* such of Gentile believers - that could
    not be tolerated (then or now).
    
    Tony - while you say (in response to my clarifying question) that you
    are trying more to encourage others to share in your joy, .61 says
    otherwise (at least, it implies otherwise).  You seem to be saying that
    adopted sons (i.e., grafted in branches, Gentile believers) ARE
    EXPECTED TO observe the practices of the natural born sons (i.e.,
    Israel).
    
    Again - I can imagine one *desiring* to do this (read the book of Ruth
    for instance), but Acts 15 makes it abundantly clear - to REQUIRE a
    Gentile believer to observe Torah is wrong.
    
    I'm not Mark - but I guess that is what he is seeing in your writing
    and if so, is rightly objecting.
    
    This is an area believers can't just agree to disagree - this is
    crucial, as one view is Salvation to all by grace, and the other
    includes a requirement of works (lovely works - don't get me wrong, the
    Torah is beautiful - but not meant as a method of salvation...).
    
    I'd be interested in hearing your (Tony, Mark, others) thoughts and
    wrestling through this one together...
    
    Steve

>    for instance), but Acts 15 makes it abundantly clear - to REQUIRE a
>    Gentile believer to observe Torah is wrong.
>    
>    I'm not Mark - but I guess that is what he is seeing in your writing
>    and if so, is rightly objecting.

Correct, I am objecting to the notion that a gentile is REQUIRED to observe
Torah, even (and especially to this argument) with regards to the commandment
about one day in seven given to Israel to commemorate God's rest.

I observe the spirit of this commandment, and to suggest that by doing so,
I am sinning because the Jews observe the spirit of this commandment on F-S
so we should, too, is just plain wrong.  Further, attempting to bind 
people again to the law, instead of being free to express the spirit of 
the law, is prohibited in Scripture.

I love you, Tony, and do not question your righteousness in being convicted
to keep the sabbath on F-S.  Even if you understand this to be a more 
fulfilling form of observance, it is NOT more "correct."

Mark

    I'm with you, Steve.  Jesus fulfilled the rest that the OT point to. 
    I've entered the article on experiencing Jesus as our Sabbath rest in here
    before (might be in the EGW topic).
    
    Mike

RE: <<< Note 574.63 by POWDML::SMCCONNELL "Next year, in Jerusalem!" >>>

	Hi, Steve.
	
	Please allow me to mollify your concerns by repeating a bit of the
	interchange you and I had on this matter a little while back.

SM.19>>    No one, Jew or Gentile, will be saved or earn an ounce of G-d's favor
SM.19>>    by observing *any* commandment.

TC.23>>        I pray that none have construed my entries to suggest otherwise.

        Salvation is by grace through faith in the Messiah. In this, we
        gentiles are grafted onto the root of Abraham. We are adopted
        children, and, I believe we are expected to obey the commandments
        out of love and fear of our God, as the Word instructs. What is the
        problem with this? Please read Matthew 7:21-27 and see if Messiah
        expects us to repent, to have a change of heart, in order to be
        saved. What does repentence mean to you? To me it means a new
        creature; to be filled with a desire to please God; to turn from
        our way to God's way; to seek the Ancient Paths trod by the
        prophets of God. What does it mean to make Jesus your Lord?
	                                                      ^^^^
        Why do we get baptised? Peter says it is the answer of a good
        conscience toward God, not the putting away of the filth of the
        flesh. Baptism does not save us, because by the works of the law is
        no flesh justified. But once one is saved, one wants to obey. What
        is wrong with this? Why is this legalism? How can this be construed
        as salvation predicated on works of the law? Wasn't Corban also
        legalism, seeking a loophole in the law to circumvent it?

	Respectfully,
		Tony
			

      Can anyone point to any of the other nine commandments and
      show where observing them in Spirit is in contradiction to
      the letter?
    
       The letter of the commandment might be to not commit 
       adultery, the Spirit goes down deep and says even that
       lustful thought is a sin.
    
       Strange bit of reasoning that regarding the fourth commandment,
       some people believe the Spirit of the commandment may contradict
       the letter.
    
                                              Tony

    Tony,
    
    Nothing wrong with being obedient...not at all!  If we love Him, we
    will obey His commands, and we'll know the Truth and the Truth will set
    us free.
    
    Obedience isn't legalism.
    
    The problem is (it seems to me) that you're not only delighting in your
    own observance of the Torah (no problem there) but suggesting that
    Gentile believers who don't do as you do are somehow in the wrong. 
    That's very much akin to the practice of "judaizing" which *is*
    legalism.
    
    Again - see Acts 15; this question *had* to be resolved early on and
    the answer is found in that chapter.
    
    No one begrudges you for wanting to observe the Torah.  *However*, if
    you do so to "earn points" with G-d, or if you demand that other
    Gentile believers do the same, you're opposing Biblical counsel.
    
    Do you see, Tony, how your statements conflict?  On the one hand, you
    say Salvation is by grace (who wouldn't agree!?!? :-), and on the
    other, you *seem to be* (correct me if I'm wrong) suggesting that *all*
    believers, including Gentiles, are *required* and *should desire* to
    observe Jewish law.  If a Gentile is requireed to observe Jewish law to
    be saved, then salvation is not by grace (not also that this applies to
    the Jew as well, for salvation has always been by faith, see Gen. 15:6
    and Romans 4).
    
    Is that any clearer?
    
    Steve

    (.68 is for Tony C., not B....)

    >the Spirit goes down deep and says even that lustful thought is a sin.
    
    Matt 5:28 "but I say to you, that every one who looks on a woman to
    lust for her has committed adultery with her already in his heart."
    
    It's not a sin to have a lustful thought.  That's temptation.  It's
    when we take that thought in as ours and allow ourselves to dwell on it
    that it becomes sin.  2 Corinthians 10:5b "and we are taking every
    thought captive to the obedience of Christ."  We are to capture
    thoughts at the threshold of our mind (rejecting those that are not of
    God).  It may seem like a nit, but the Lord doesn't want us carrying
    around a bunch of false guilt.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing 

>       Strange bit of reasoning that regarding the fourth commandment,
>       some people believe the Spirit of the commandment may contradict
>       the letter.

I put it to you, Tony B:

(a) what is the spirit of the sabbath day observance.
(b) what is the letter of the sabbath day observance.

You haven't even adhered to the letter of the sabbath day observance
when you say that the people before Moses observed the sabbath, since
it was not given in letter before then.  And the letter of the law is
given to whom?  And does the letter specify F-S?  No.  It says "sabbath."
The Jewish sabbath HAPPENS to occur on F-S but this is beside the point
and not THE point.  The LETTER of the LAW says sabbath.  You want to say
that sabbath = F-S but the Bible says sabbath means "intermission" (Strongs)
and the Jewish happenstance doesn't negate the possibility of fulfilling
the LETTER of the law on a Sunday, Monday, or other day of the week.

Mark

RE: <<< Note 574.68 by POWDML::SMCCONNELL "Next year, in Jerusalem!" >>>

	Hi, Steve.

	The following is extracted from my ealier replies. I hope it will
	allay your fears that I require anything of anyone or that I'm
	seeking brownie points with God. 

	574.52
        "As for the condition or status of those who don't observe Sabbath
        or observe it on a different day, or those that observe Christmas
        and Easter instead of the feasts of God, it is between them and
        God. Let God's Word speak for itself, and let the hearts of the
        readers respond accordingly. Let every man be convinced in his own
        mind, it is certainly not for me to judge another man's servant."

	574.56
        "I believe that Christ living in me wants me to observe the Feasts
        and Sabbaths that He established and observed. It is the love of
        Christ, the fear of God, the desire to provide a good witness of
        obedience, and discipline for hardship that motivate me. I endeavor
        not to do these things out of any righteousness of my own or to
        seek any reward or to embarass or disparage those that don't."

	574.56
        "Many people speak of being on a different level of their walk with
        God. I would offer that we are all pretty much on the same level,
        but that God is applying us to different areas, that God has called
        some of us to do things which others of us may not understand.
        Different members of the body, if you will, performing more
        distinctly discreet functions."

    .70 Bing!
    
    Good nit!  That could also apply in topic on sexuality.
    
    Nancy

      Hi Mark,
    
        By letter of the law, the law I meant is the whole of the
        4th commandment within which it clearly states that the
        SEVENTH day is THE SABBATH of the Lord.
    
        I understand that we disagree as to who the decalogue is
        for.  But, Jesus prays that our flight not be on THE Sabbath.
        If it were every single day, that makes no sense.  When Paul
        speaks of the law as in "What shall we say then, is the law
        sin?", he quotes from the ten commandments, i.e. "I would
        not have known covetoussness (is a sin) except THE LAW said
        "Thou shalt not covet."  Here is a part of the decalogue (THE LAW) 
        quoted within the context of post-Calvary enduring law.
    
        Again...I believe God spoke directly to Adam and passed down
        the ten commandments to him.  My basis for this is the origination
        of the Sabbath (Eden), the Sabbath reappearing without a hint 
        of context suggesting it was suddenly added (miracle of the 
        manna event), and the Sabbath seeming to be perpetual ("there
        remains a sabbatismos to the people of God", praying that flight
        not be on the Sabbath).
    
        Given the above, the silence in between works both ways.  It does
        not negate the possibility that God told Adam about creation week.
        It is ludicrous to me that God would set aside a day (on creation
        week before sin entered earth), sanctify it, bless it, and then
        some thousand years later intend it exclusively for the Jews and
        have it be some nonspiritual sort of a commandment.
    
        Mark, could you respond to my Romans 14 reply?
    
      Hi Steve,
    
        If I could answer one thing for Tony Camuso.  Perhaps Tony is
        suggesting that the seventh day Sabbath is a part of that law
        of which sin is the transgression of.  And he simply wants to
        asisst in sharing more about what obedience to God is and what
        withdrawing from sin is.
    
        The disconnect I see is that you cannot seem to see that Tony
        might believe this about the Sabbath.  And if you could see
        that Tony might see it that way, then to urge another to think
        about the Sabbath as in God wants us all to rest during that time
        would not be an exercise in legalism.
    
        That's where I'm at.  I believe transgression of the 4th comm.
        is sin and I think God wants to call us all from sin.
    
        Thanks Bing...I hear ya and agree with ya on the difference 
        between temptation/sin.
    
                                                 Tony

        I love you, too, brother Mark. That goes for all my brothers and
        sisters in the Lord, also, but Mark and I, though never having met
        in person, have a special history. Alright, alright, put the
        hankies away. ":^}

        TonyB and I have shared off-line in the past, and while we may not
        be congruent on all matters, he is correct to say we share a lot of
        common ground concerning the Sabbath. I was compelled to share my
        convictions in this forum by the coaxing of more than one sibling
        in the Lord with whom I had shared them. Some of the encouragement
        to do so came from those outside of DEC, and therefore not privy to
        this forum. I was reluctant to do so, as I was concerned that it
        would do more damage than good, and that my clumsy articulation of
        my convictions would engender misconstruction thereof. Besides, I
        had just emerged from a lengthy, soul-searching, heart-wrenching
        struggle with the whole issue of sabbaths, feasts, and obedience.
        Let me explain.

        There was within me a great struggle to come to grips with the
        cavalier attitude displayed towards the Sabbath commandment by the
        overwhelming majority of Christians. If Sunday was the Christian
        Sabbath, why were we buying and selling and working and otherwise
        pursuing our own pleasures and our own increase thereon? Some
        Sabbath-keepers had challenged me on this point. Even many
        unbelievers know that the Sabbath is not a quaint Jewish custom.
        The glib attitude Christians exhibit towards the Sabbath, Sunday
        or otherwise, is a relatively recent phenomenon.

        I had no answers, so I went to my church leadership. The more I
        pressed my church leadership on this point, the more annoyed they
        became with me. I sought the counsel of Scripture, and became
        convicted that I should not violate the Sabbath any more. We began
        to observe Sunday as our Sabbath and kept it that way for a while.

        In the meantime, I did some studies on whether the weekly cycle had
        ever changed. I cannot find the reference now, but I had an article
        which quoted from the curator of a British astronomical society. He
        says the weekly cycle, ergo the position of the 7th day, hasn't
        changed since before the time of Christ. I began to suffer some
	discomfort from this. After wrestling with the idea for some time,
	I decided to move our Sabbath observance to the day Jesus honored
	as His own. We found peace, and our house was blessed.

        Even before being challenged on the Sabbath, I had been challenged
        by some Christians and unbelievers concerning Christmas and Easter.
        Soon after I adapted the Lord's Sabbath, I began to research these
        holidays and confirmed their pagan origin. Well, it looked like I
        wasn't gonna be able to observe these with a clear conscience
        anymore, so I started looking into the Feasts of God. What a
        refreshing contrast from the world's holidays. Last April we
        observed our first Passover.

	Regards to all,
		Tony
		

>        Mark, could you respond to my Romans 14 reply?  (.59)

>        Had ANY CHRISTIANS not been seventh-day Sabbath keepers 
>        at the time of the writings of Romans 14, scripture would
>        have mentioned this.  I base this on the mention of the 
>        Judaizing influence (Galatians and Acts).

Why would scripture have mentioned this?  It wasn't an issue that gentiles
were not keeping the sabbath because they were gentiles, not Jews.
This is pure speculation - not fact - and as Garth might say "an argument
from silence."  You did the same thing with your conviction that prior
to Moses, people kept a sabbath.

>        To put another way...it is inconceivable that the Judaizing
>        element would not have complained about non-Sabbathkeeping
>        should such have been going on.  (Just as they complained
>        that people were not getting circumcized.)
    
*** I F *** sabbath keeping was an issue, it *** M A Y *** be wrapped up
in the issue of circumcision (becoming a Jew).  And if this is so, then 
Paul has addressed this legalism with vigorous opposition.  Otherwise,
you have supposed much again.

>        It is nonexegetical therefore to apply Romans 14 to seventh
>        day Sabbathkeeping for historical reality is not being taken
>        into the context.  Far be it from us to apply Romans 14 to 
>        that which Paul _does not apply it_.
    
Actually, you have shown clearly that you have been extrapolating to 
hold the position you hold.  

The letter of the law kills; the spirit of the law brings freedom.
The fact of Romans 14 shows that no particular sabbath is commanded
in the NT - anywhere.  The fact of Acts 15:28-29 shows that gentiles are 
not bound by Jewish law; the *necessary* things do not include worhipping
on F-S.  (I realize that last one is an argument from silence *except*
that Paul says "these necessary things" and goes onto make a list.

No where is it stated (NO WHERE!) that Sunday-keeping is a human institution,
that Christians are obligated to keep any certain day or especially the
Jewish sabbath, that the Lord's Day (commonly known as Sunday) is the
Jewish sabbath, that Christian are not to work on Saturday, that the
law of Moses was for gentiles as well as for Jews, that the fourth commandment
was a sign between God and the gentiles as STATED of God and Israel in 
Exodus 31:13-17, Deut. 5:12-15, and Ezekiel 20:12-13, that Saturday was
the only day that the apostles recognized as the day or rest and worship, 
that people before Moses observed a sabbath, or that Sunday cannot be as holy
as any other day sanctified or set apart for the worship of God.

All you have is your interpretation and convictions, no facts. And while I
again applaud your setting apart F-S as your sabbath, as do the Jews, I
firmly oppose the idea that it is the day REQUIRED for the spirit of the
law.

Mark

Note 574.74 YIELD::BARBIERI
>        I understand that we disagree as to who the decalogue is
>        for.  But, Jesus prays that our flight not be on THE Sabbath.

Which sabbath?  Your sabbath or my sabbath.  My "the" sabbath is on
Sunday.

>        If it were every single day, that makes no sense.

Sure it does (and can).  Pray that our flight is not on your sabbath
or my sabbath.  Now, you might provide conjecture that "the" definite article
applies to one sabbath, but the subject is you (your flight) and the sabbath is
related to the subject.  Now, if flight must occur on Saturday, it certainly
won't be on the sabbath for me.  And if it must occur on a Sunday, it won't be
on the sabbath for you.

>        Again...I believe God spoke directly to Adam and passed down
>        the ten commandments to him.  My basis for this is the origination

Pure speculation.

>        of the Sabbath (Eden), the Sabbath reappearing without a hint
>        of context suggesting it was suddenly added (miracle of the
>        manna event), and the Sabbath seeming to be perpetual ("there

...an event of the people of Israel; not hint whatsoever about any
other people.

>        Given the above, the silence in between works both ways.  It does
>        not negate the possibility that God told Adam about creation week.

Does this mean that it is POSSIBLE that the sabbath does not have to
be observed by gentile believers in Christ?

>        It is ludicrous to me that God would set aside a day (on creation
>        week before sin entered earth), sanctify it, bless it, and then
>        some thousand years later intend it exclusively for the Jews and
>        have it be some nonspiritual sort of a commandment.

The Scripture is ludicrous because God said it was a sign between Him
and the Israelites in several locations.  Wnat them?

>        Mark, could you respond to my Romans 14 reply?

Yes, in .76.

>        That's where I'm at.  I believe transgression of the 4th comm.
>        is sin and I think God wants to call us all from sin.

Gentiles who worship on Sunday do not transgress the fourth commandment.

Mark

.75> Tony Camuso

I appreciate your spiritual journey.  I have dealt with similar searchings
and have come to a different conclusion, as is borne out in these discussions.
I would not want to take away the joy you find in F-S sabbath-keeping and
it is not my intent in arguing as I do.  However, it is wrong to preach
F-S as the only day on which the "weekly intermission" and "repose" is
to take place.  It is wrong to burden Christians to the letter of the 
law; and though you find freedom on F-S, it is the yoke of legalism to
suggest, imply or preach it as a requirement of God, which it is not.

As for your continued interest in Jewish custom, I would suggest some
conversations with Steve McConnell who may be able to expand upon some
of the feasts you are beginning to enjoy.  

Mark

Hi All,

    The parable of the lost coin, while having a primary and
more obvious application to the seeking of the lost and drawing
that lost person to repentence (see Luke 15:10), also has a
deeper and secondary application.

Luke 15:8-9
"Or what woman, having ten silver coins, if she loses one coin,
does not light a lamp, sweep the house and seek diligently until
she finds it?  And when she has found it, she calls her friends
and neighbors together, saying, 'Rejoice with me, for I have
found the piece which I lost!'"

    I think most of us agree that symbolically the woman is the
church.  What might the ten silver coins represent?

Proverbs 2:1-5
My son, if you receive my words, and treasure my commandments
within you,
So that you incline your ear to wisdom, and apply your heart to
understanding;
Yes if you cry out for discernment, and lift up your voice for
understanding.
If you *seek her* as _silver_ and search for her as for hidden
treasure...

    In Proverbs seeking as for silver is linked to receiving
God's words and treasuring His commandments.  The ten
commandments begin...

Exodus 20:1
And God spoke all these WORDS saying...

    One meaning of the silver coins which the woman seeks is the
word of God and here is referring to the ten commandments.  (God
does not use detail as filler.  Ten clearly refers to the ten
commandments.)

    What does it mean to light a lamp?

Psalm 119:105
Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.

    Who are her friends?  I believe all the other churches.

    Notice also, the woman refers to the silver coin which she
lost.  This woman lights the lamp and with that lamp seeks
diligently.  And she rejoices for she finds that one piece of
silver (that one word of ten) which she had previously lost.

    To connect this all and to assume (again) that God doesn't
use detail as filler.  This parable would seem to apply to the
ten commandments.  But, if so, something strange would have to
happen over history for this parable to fit.  The church would
have to lose sight of one of the ten commandments.  There would
have to be a falling away.  Not only that, but there would have
to be some sort of revival.  The church would diligently seek
God's word.  And in that seeking of God's word, she would
(according to the parable) find the lost commandment.  And,
rejoicing, she would tell her friends.

    And, except for the last part reaching complete fulfillment,
that is EXACTLY what has happened!

                          *************

Matthew 13:10-13
And the disciples came and said to Him, "Why do you speak to
them in parables?"
He answered and said to them, "Because it has been given to you
to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it
has not been given.
For whoever has, more will be given, and he will have abundance;
but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away
from him.
Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do
not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand."
                                                                
                                          God Bless,
                                                            
                                          Tony

      Hi Mark,
    
        Only God can make a Sabbath.  Only He can sanctify.
    
        The gospel pointed to by any sabbath (so-called) on any day other
        than that Sabbath made by God is justification by works which
        is legalism.  For if man can make a day holy, man's reliance
        is at least in part on self.
    
        Let the Bible speak for itself...only God can sanctify a day
        and the only day of the seven day week He sanctified is the 
        seventh day.  I invite you to show me where it is that God or
        man ever sanctified any other weekly day.  Man can't do it and
        God never did.
    
    
        Your Romans 14 interpretation is incorrect.  Had any Gentiles
        not kept the seventh day Sabbath, the Judaizers would have
        vehemently opposed this.  Gentiles did keep the seventh-day 
        Sabbath.  History bears this out.
    
                                                  Tony

    RE:  .79
    
    Tony B.,
    
    A most excellent note!  Thank you for the reminder; I had forgotten
    this little parable.
    
    God Bless You,
    Janet

>        The gospel pointed to by any sabbath (so-called) on any day other
>        than that Sabbath made by God is justification by works which
>        is legalism.  For if man can make a day holy, man's reliance
>        is at least in part on self.

Charge and countercharge.  I certainly knew you would not be persuaded
by the facts of Scripture, but have steadfastly held to your 
extrapolation of it.  And here you twist what we have said, because 
we know that God sanctifies the day, and I think your implication to
the contrary is false.  But God sanctified one day in seven, and for
Israel as a covenent between Him and them.  Only rationalizing places
you in that covenant - not the Word of God.

By the way, I went back and answered your question.
How about answering mine?

Q1:  What is the spirit of the law regarding the sabbath?
Q2:  What is the letter of the law regarding the sabbath?

      Hi Janet,
    
        Thanks sis!
    
      Hi All,
    
        I just want to offer a hypothetical situation and apply Romans 14.
        Lets say a group of Christians begin fasting every Wednesday 
        evening.  In the local congregation, this practise becomes common-
        place after awhile.  However, for whatever reason, others do not
        feel compelled to engage in this fasting.
    
        Or perhaps, one group of Christians begin holding prayer meetings
        or vesper services on Tuesdays.  Again, it becomes a common event
        among a group.  Others are not so inclined.
    
        Lets say for either case, the one group that fasts on one day or
        holds vesper service on another begins to push the others that
        aren't.  
    
        "Say, brother, you ought to be vespering with us!  I am concerned
        for you.  Its not right that you aren't coming along!"  Say some
        dissension is occuring.  The body is becoming less unified.  There
        are factions.
    
        With these hypothetical examples, an enlightened mind hopefully
        would come along and say, "One man esteems one day above
        another, etc..."
    
        The whole point of what I am saying is that we need to be careful
        and give adequate consideration to what specifically Paul was
        addressing.  In fact, I have heard that the church in Rome was
        having problems with a group of people that I think were known
        as Essenes (but it might have been another group).  The group
        was getting rather strict regarding what people should eat and
        even when they should eat or fast.
    
        You've gotta be exegetical.  If the above two hypothetical 
        examples are close to the mark of whatever was happening, then
        to apply Romans 14 to the 4th commandment is missing the mark
        by a country mile for it is making application where the inspired 
        author might not have been ballpark close to making it.
    
        History shows that friction was occuring in the areas of diet,
        when to fast, etc.  (By history, I mean the times of the apostles.)
        History does not show that during apostolic times any Christians
        were not seventh-day Sabbathkeepers.  
    
                                                       Tony

>        You've gotta be exegetical.  If the above two hypothetical 
>        examples are close to the mark of whatever was happening, then
>        to apply Romans 14 to the 4th commandment is missing the mark
>        by a country mile for it is making application where the inspired 
>        author might not have been ballpark close to making it.

Your examples are nowheres near the mark.  The ruckus was to release
people from bondage, not bring them into it.

Q1:  What is the spirit of the law regarding the sabbath?

Q2:  What is the letter of the law regarding the sabbath?

Mark

      Hi Mark,
    
        Excuse me for not answering the question.
    
        I would say the letter of the law would be to just sit down
        and not move a muscle from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.
        Maybe sleep the whole day off!
    
        The Spirit of the law would be to be so psyched with abstinence
        from any 'secular' activities that the whole time would be a
        time of prayer, drinking in the word, and of ministering to 
        others.  It would be a time of helping a friend, of sharing the
        good news with others, etc.  It would be the most active day of
        the seven, but none of the time would be spent on secular 
        activity.  It would be much like what Jesus did on the Sabbath
        and it would be so largely because the day is unencumbered with
        things like hanging laundry, cutting the front lawn, tuning
        up the car, or going to work.
    
        Note Mark, that the Spirit of the law does not contradict the
        letter which is abstinence from secular activity such as our
        jobs.  Your interpretation (somehow) has the spirit contradict
        the letter.  The Spirit magnifies, but it doesn't contradict.
    
        It would not be a time of using that time to do secular activities.
        It also (of course) would not imply that doing any of these good
        things (such as prayer, study, service) would be wrong at any 
        other day.
    
        I have not meant to be a thorn.  I _feel_ after a quick read
        of your last reply that you are getting hostile.  I'm not saying
        you are OR that I haven't been; this is what I feel.  I am being
        sincere.  My reasons for my convictions on the Sabbath I believe
        are scriptural and they run very deep.  What has transpired here
        is the tip of an iceberg.
    
        It would be too long to explain, but I believe the Sabbath is
        a God-given symbol (still enduring) which most illuminates on
        the gospel which is justification by faith.  I'd have to write a
        book to share all the ways I believe the Bible calls us to
        Sabbathkeep and all the reasons it does.  It is the symbol of the
        gospel and a gospel none of us understands fully.
    
        I believe that only God can 'make' a Sabbath.  Only He has.  Man
        can't do it.  Just point any scripture Mark that states that
        God sanctified any other day in 7 or that man has ever done so.
    
        With that, I am not persuaded that days 1 thru 6 can possibly be
        a Sabbath.  You said they could be and I wonder how that can be
        so (scripturally).  Just show me where the Bible says that God
        has done so or that man can do so.
    
        I'd like a reply on that Mark.
    
        But, when you write things like:
    
        "I certainly knew you would not be persuaded by facts or scripture"
        I believe you are judging my heart again.  Rather than keying to
        just sticking with the topic at hand.   
    
        Look, I'm real human and a sinner, but my heart tells me that
        you are in the wrong to say things like the above.  I realize that
        when we write, we 'play' by different rules.  But, those are mine.
        I hope to never tell you things like you refuse to be persuaded 
        by the word. 
    
        If I do, forgive me.
    
                                                    Peace,
    
                                                    Tony

Note 574.85 YIELD::BARBIERI  
    
>        Excuse me for not answering the question.
>    
>        I would say the letter of the law would be to just sit down
>        and not move a muscle from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday.
>        Maybe sleep the whole day off!

The letter:

  8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
  9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
 10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt
not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy
maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
 11  For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in
them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath
day, and hallowed it.

"Remember the sabbath" : does not expand on this
"keep it holy" : separate
"Doing no work": not moving a muscle?  Sleeping the day away?  Not.
"six days" : ordinal numbers, not necessarily Sunday, Monday, etc.
"rested on the seventh day" : day after the sixth, ordinal number.
"the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God"  
    
>        The Spirit of the law would be to be so psyched with abstinence
>        from any 'secular' activities that the whole time would be a
>        time of prayer, drinking in the word, and of ministering to 
>        others.  It would be a time of helping a friend, of sharing the
>        good news with others, etc.  It would be the most active day of
>        the seven, but none of the time would be spent on secular 
>        activity.  It would be much like what Jesus did on the Sabbath
>        and it would be so largely because the day is unencumbered with
>        things like hanging laundry, cutting the front lawn, tuning
>        up the car, or going to work.
>    
>        Note Mark, that the Spirit of the law does not contradict the
>        letter which is abstinence from secular activity such as our
>        jobs.  Your interpretation (somehow) has the spirit contradict
>        the letter.  The Spirit magnifies, but it doesn't contradict.

WRONG.  The spirit of the law says NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING about keeping
A SPECIFIC DAY.  The letter of the law was given to a specific people. You
ignore this, or call yourself the new Israel.

Further, You claim that the spirit should exceed the letter, ***but show NO
WAY in which your observance magnifies the letter of the law.***  Why? How
is your observance any greater than the observance in the OT?

                           ******************
Tell me also, that if the spirit of the law does not contradict the letter
of the law that the Judaizers were not upheld in regards to circumcision?
                           ******************

>        I have not meant to be a thorn.  I _feel_ after a quick read
>        of your last reply that you are getting hostile.  I'm not saying
>        you are OR that I haven't been; this is what I feel.  I am being
>        sincere.  My reasons for my convictions on the Sabbath I believe
>        are scriptural and they run very deep.  What has transpired here
>        is the tip of an iceberg.

I know your convictions are deep.  So are mine.  You say it is a sin to
worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.  I oppose this according to
Scriptural fact - not extrapolation as you have done.

>        I believe that only God can 'make' a Sabbath.  Only He has.  Man
>        can't do it.  Just point any scripture Mark that states that
>        God sanctified any other day in 7 or that man has ever done so.

God sanctified a day in seven, the seventh day.  Which seventh day is 
UNIMPORTANT according to Scripture (OT Jewish laws and NT gentile
freedoms).
    
>        With that, I am not persuaded that days 1 thru 6 can possibly be
>        a Sabbath.  You said they could be and I wonder how that can be
>        so (scripturally).  Just show me where the Bible says that God
>        has done so or that man can do so.

You continue to wonder despite scriptural fact.  Charge and countercharge.

>        I'd like a reply on that Mark.

There it is.
    
>        But, when you write things like:
>    
>        "I certainly knew you would not be persuaded by facts or scripture"
>        I believe you are judging my heart again.  Rather than keying to
>        just sticking with the topic at hand.   

This *is* the topic.  You are presented with Scripture, yet you come back
with extrapolation of Scripture.
    
>        Look, I'm real human and a sinner, but my heart tells me that
>        you are in the wrong to say things like the above.  I realize that
>        when we write, we 'play' by different rules.  But, those are mine.
>        I hope to never tell you things like you refuse to be persuaded 
>        by the word. 

Well, you have in stating that to worship on Sunday is sin.  You may throw
that out as a blanket statement and feel released from being personal about
things, but in fact you call all sinners who worship on Sundays, keeping
their sabbath on the Lord's Day.  And because this is a blanket statement,
I am not to be offended but see "the truth" you present and repent and
accept it?  It is not the truth and I reject it based on what Scripture
says.  I don't care if you worship on Saturday, but I would ask you to 
stop being as the Judaizers were in Acts 15.  I will oppose such a position
of legalism as did Paul (vigorously and "to your face").  Peter was wrong
and so are you regarding this matter.

Again, you are not wrong to observe Saturday; you are wrong to say it is
sin to worship on any other day.

Mark

Hi Mark,

  As far as I'm concerned, when someone's attitude toward someone
  is so variable, there is a problem.  When I am not addressed by
  name or when the tone is so hostile - Christ isn't there.  Cold,
  hard theology may be there.  It may even be 'good' theology (though
  I don't think it is), but Jesus simply is not there.

  There is a problem that is far more important than 'what day' and
  that is that I do not discern one iota of the character of Christ
  in your entire ~100 line reply.

  That is a grave problem.

  All right, but I will reply...

�"Remember the sabbath" : does not expand on this
�"keep it holy" : separate
�"Doing no work": not moving a muscle?  Sleeping the day away?  Not.
�"six days" : ordinal numbers, not necessarily Sunday, Monday, etc.
�"rested on the seventh day" : day after the sixth, ordinal number.
�"the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God"  
 
 God never said 'A' seventh day.  He said 'THE.'

 During the miracle of the manna experience, if one tried to take 
 extra on any day other than the 6th, it would go bad.  It was THE
 and not A.  We can back-extrapolate to before the time of Christ and
 deduce that the order has not changed.

 There was a specific day in 7 that was sanctified.

 I'm sorry Mark.  I HONESTLY do not see (scriptural or otherwise) how
 anyone can deduce that it is any one day in 7 and not THE seventh
 day which day we can extrapolate back to its keeping in the time of
 the life of Christ.
   
�WRONG.  The spirit of the law says NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING about keeping
�A SPECIFIC DAY.  The letter of the law was given to a specific people. You
�ignore this, or call yourself the new Israel.

 I believe it does specify a specific day.  Else, the miracle of the manna
 would have been flexible enough to allow for personal decision as to  
 which day in 7 to rest.  It did not.  The manna was unavailable on THE
 seventh day.  

 Again Mark...I am NOT trying to be unscriptural...I honestly do not see
 how it is that it is any day in 7.

 As far as Israel (sorry Steve!), I believe Israel in its spiritual
 application applies to anyone of faith and I believe the ten commandment
 law is a spiritual law and that it was given to Israel because Israel
 was to witness Christ to the world.  Israel in its spiritual sense (I
 believe) were those that received the light in the 1st advent and not 
 those that rejected it.  What advantage hath the Jew?  Much in every
 way for unto them were committed the oracles of God.

 When Paul asks in Romans 7:7, "Is the law sin?", he speaks of CURRENT 
 LAW.  He says further, before quoting from the decalogue, "I would not
 have known sin except through the law."

 Please, I'm TRYING to be scriptural.  I deduce from this that Paul speaks
 of that law OF WHICH SIN IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF IT.  And within this
 context, he quotes from the ten commandments.  My margin in Romans 7:7
 says Exodus 20:17 and Deuteronomy 5:21 which are the giving of the ten
 commandments.  He quotes from the ten and partial context of the discussion
 is: _this is the law which gives the knowledge of sin_.

�Further, You claim that the spirit should exceed the letter, ***but show NO
�WAY in which your observance magnifies the letter of the law.***  Why? How
�is your observance any greater than the observance in the OT?

 Well, perhaps I erred.  Perhaps, as one grows in Sabbathkeeping, one does
 things during that time that is of a much more spiritually elevating 
 nature than what one previously had done all the while what one previously
 had done would still have been construed as Sabbathkeeping.

 What do you say the spirit of the 4th commandment is?

 I'll continue...

 Continuing...

 You said something about circumcision...

 I distinguish the ten commandments from circumcision.  Paul did not quote
 on circumcision in Romans 7.  Neither did Jesus expound on circumcision
 on the sermon on the Mount.  They did discuss from the ten commandments
 however.  I make a distinction between that law God carved with His finger
 and other OT laws.

�I know your convictions are deep.  So are mine.  You say it is a sin to
�worship on Sunday instead of Saturday.  I oppose this according to
�Scriptural fact - not extrapolation as you have done.

 Yeah, I did.  I hope I did so in a nonhostile manner.  I only meant to
 hold up what I believe the law of liberty is.  (That mirror in James 1.)

�God sanctified a day in seven, the seventh day.  Which seventh day is 
�UNIMPORTANT according to Scripture (OT Jewish laws and NT gentile
�freedoms).
 
 I don't understand this.  Tony Camuso, does Mark make sense to you on
 this point?  I don't get it.  I don't see the ten commandments as an
 OT Jewish law.  Paul does quote from it a few times within the context
 of enduring moral law and none of the context of his quotes even remotely
 suggests to me the notion, "Oh by the way...while I'm quoting from the
 ten commandments, it is inferred that they are no more as they are 'OT
 Jewish' and I'm really quoting from what we all know is a new 'NT standard'
 and one which does not include just that one commandment."  As I read,
 the context does not suggest this to me.  Huge point for me.
   
>        With that, I am not persuaded that days 1 thru 6 can possibly be
>        a Sabbath.  You said they could be and I wonder how that can be
>        so (scripturally).  Just show me where the Bible says that God
>        has done so or that man can do so.

�You continue to wonder despite scriptural fact.  Charge and countercharge.

 I honestly do not see the 'scriptural fact' that supports the notion that
 God made any other weekly day (save THE seventh day) holy, etc.

>        I'd like a reply on that Mark.

�There it is.
 
 Man, Mark...be kind.  Otherwise, what's it really worth?

 Are you concerned with how I am when you write?
   
�Well, you have in stating that to worship on Sunday is sin.  

 I said that not resting on the seventh day is sin.

 Continuing once more...

Continuing...

�You may throw
�that out as a blanket statement and feel released from being personal about
�things, but in fact you call all sinners who worship on Sundays, keeping
�their sabbath on the Lord's Day.  

 How scriptural are you being?  Using the Bible and the Bible alone, please
 show me that the first day of the week is "the Lord's day."  I believe 
 Jesus claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath though.

 I need to see your scriptural support for this.  Please.

�And because this is a blanket statement,
�I am not to be offended but see "the truth" you present and repent and
�accept it? 

 We both present what we believe to be truth.  I am not at all offended
 by the obvious truth that falling short of the glory of God is sin
 and thus (hypothetically) should you be wrong and I be right, I sin
 by saying what I'm saying.  Your words infer this.  This doesn't bother
 me in the least.

 That's not hostility.  Hostility is the lack of kindness in framing the
 words.  To say 'hi' and really mean it is to make an (albeit small) 
 overture of kindness.  To end once in awhile with a 'god bless' or 'peace'
 or to remind us all that truth unmingled with love is probably not a
 good thing and that there is a better way.

 I'm just being honest Mark.  I discern NO LOVE.

 So what good is it even were the theoretical part of your words be true?

�It is not the truth and I reject it based on what Scripture
�says.  I don't care if you worship on Saturday, but I would ask you to 
�stop being as the Judaizers were in Acts 15.  I will oppose such a position
�of legalism as did Paul (vigorously and "to your face").  Peter was wrong
�and so are you regarding this matter.

 Well, I know that Paul had a hard time with people claiming you had to
 be circumcized in order to be saved.  He said salvation was by faith and
 faith alone.

 I never once conflicted with this.

 Paul also stood Peter to his face because Peter separated himself from
 Gentiles.  I don't think I've done this either.

 I have said that not doing a certain thing is sin.  This isn't the same
 thing as saying salvation requires more than faith.  Nor is it saying
 that I would separate from others.

 I guess its one more of those things I just don't get!!   ;-)

�Again, you are not wrong to observe Saturday; you are wrong to say it is
�sin to worship on any other day.

 I understand what you are saying, but I don't get it.  I do not see scripture
 saying the ten commandments was revoked.

 In consideration of the weightier matters of the law, I personally believe
 that to be so very sensitive to how others are doing and to really try to
 extend love in the fabric of what is being written, to somehow (however 
 small) include outward kindness and care for one another - well, that's
 far more important than what day one rests on.

 I hope this is something we can both agree on.

                                            God Bless You Brother,

                                            Tony

	Tony, great trio of notes. You definitely made your point in a VERY
NON-HOSTILE manner. Thanks for keeping your cool.


Glen

Note 574.87  YIELD::BARBIERI

>  As far as I'm concerned, when someone's attitude toward someone
>  is so variable, there is a problem.  When I am not addressed by
>  name or when the tone is so hostile - Christ isn't there.  Cold,
>  hard theology may be there.  It may even be 'good' theology (though
>  I don't think it is), but Jesus simply is not there.

  Then Saint Paul did not have Christ in him when he opposed Peter.

>  There is a problem that is far more important than 'what day' and
>  that is that I do not discern one iota of the character of Christ
>  in your entire ~100 line reply.
>
>  That is a grave problem.

  Who is judging whose heart, Tony?

..........................................................................
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
..........................................................................

>�Further, You claim that the spirit should exceed the letter, ***but show NO
>�WAY in which your observance magnifies the letter of the law.***  Why? How
>�is your observance any greater than the observance in the OT?
>
> Well, perhaps I erred.  Perhaps, as one grows in Sabbathkeeping, one does
> things during that time that is of a much more spiritually elevating
> nature than what one previously had done all the while what one previously
> had done would still have been construed as Sabbathkeeping.

But this spiritual elevation cannot include a sabbath other than F-S?
We part ways on this "legalistic" point (F-S).

> What do you say the spirit of the 4th commandment is?

  Man has a built-in need to "intermission"; time set apart for God.


............................
Note 574.88  YIELD::BARBIERI
............................
> You said something about circumcision...
>
> I distinguish the ten commandments from circumcision.

  Isn't this because you consider the 10 to be given to everyone in their
  literal entirety?  Circumcision was a commandment for Israel.  Indeed
  it has spiritual application, but the physical aspect was not required
  of Gentiles.

> Paul did not quote
> on circumcision in Romans 7.  Neither did Jesus expound on circumcision
> on the sermon on the Mount.  They did discuss from the ten commandments
> however.

  What did Jesus say about the Sabbath on the sermon on the mount?


>I make a distinction between that law God carved with His finger and other OT
>laws.

  Why?  Why make any distinction between any commandment that God gives,
  either by His finger, or by "Thus saith the Lord." since it is all
  a commandment of God.  Please examine the REASONS why you make your
  distinctions.

>�God sanctified a day in seven, the seventh day.  Which seventh day is
>�UNIMPORTANT according to Scripture (OT Jewish laws and NT gentile
>�freedoms).
>
> I don't understand this.  Tony Camuso, does Mark make sense to you on
> this point?  I don't get it.  I don't see the ten commandments as an
> OT Jewish law.  Paul does quote from it a few times within the context
> of enduring moral law and none of the context of his quotes even remotely
> suggests to me the notion, "Oh by the way...while I'm quoting from the
> ten commandments, it is inferred that they are no more as they are 'OT
> Jewish' and I'm really quoting from what we all know is a new 'NT standard'
> and one which does not include just that one commandment."  As I read,
> the context does not suggest this to me.  Huge point for me.

  A huge point?  A point that has very little scripture EITHER WAY as to
  exactly what and when a Gentile is to do with the Jewish sabbath day.
  You don't get it based on what Paul doesn't say?  Yet you get your view
  also from what Paul doesn't say.  Sorry, Tony, I'm the one who doesn't
  get how your reasoning has worked this through.

>�You continue to wonder despite scriptural fact.  Charge and countercharge.
>
> I honestly do not see the 'scriptural fact' that supports the notion that
> God made any other weekly day (save THE seventh day) holy, etc.

  FOR WHOM did God make THE seventh day?  For Israel.  This is the
  Scriptural fact.  You want to adopt it?  Great!  But let's not think that
  Scripture says anything about the sabbath day being anything more than a
  covenant between God and Israel (see Exodus 31:13-17, Deut. 5:12-15, and
  Ezekiel 20:12-13)

>>        I'd like a reply on that Mark.
>
>�There it is.
>
> Man, Mark...be kind.  Otherwise, what's it really worth?

  How is my comment different from yours!?!?!?

> Are you concerned with how I am when you write?

  I am concerned the the Truth is understood.  Paul said he opposed Peter
  to his face.  Was he concerned about Peter when he did this?  You bet he
  was, because Peter had become influenced by the Judaizers.  Sometimes the
  truth hurts.

>�Well, you have in stating that to worship on Sunday is sin.
>
> I said that not resting on the seventh day is sin.

  Sorry.  Thanks for the clarification.  My "seventh day" is Sunday.
  God has allowed me to make that my seventh day.  Want Scripture?

.............................
Note 574.89   YIELD::BARBIERI
.............................
>�You may throw
>�that out as a blanket statement and feel released from being personal about
>�things, but in fact you call all sinners who worship on Sundays, keeping
>�their sabbath on the Lord's Day.
>
> How scriptural are you being?  Using the Bible and the Bible alone, please
> show me that the first day of the week is "the Lord's day."  I believe
> Jesus claimed to be the Lord of the Sabbath though.

  The Lord's Day is commonly referred to as the first day of the week when
  Jesus was resurrected.

>�And because this is a blanket statement,
>�I am not to be offended but see "the truth" you present and repent and
>�accept it?
>
> We both present what we believe to be truth.  I am not at all offended
> by the obvious truth that falling short of the glory of God is sin
> and thus (hypothetically) should you be wrong and I be right, I sin
> by saying what I'm saying.  Your words infer this.  This doesn't bother
> me in the least.
>
> That's not hostility.  Hostility is the lack of kindness in framing the
> words.  To say 'hi' and really mean it is to make an (albeit small)
> overture of kindness.  To end once in awhile with a 'god bless' or 'peace'
> or to remind us all that truth unmingled with love is probably not a
> good thing and that there is a better way.
>
> I'm just being honest Mark.  I discern NO LOVE.

  You have interpreted my words and judged my heart; the very thing you
  have accused me of doing to you.


> I have said that not doing a certain thing is sin.  This isn't the same
> thing as saying salvation requires more than faith.  Nor is it saying
> that I would separate from others.

  And I have said that doing a certain thing on a different day is NOT sin.

> In consideration of the weightier matters of the law, I personally believe
> that to be so very sensitive to how others are doing and to really try to
> extend love in the fabric of what is being written, to somehow (however
> small) include outward kindness and care for one another - well, that's
> far more important than what day one rests on.

  Don't be too quick to judge the fabric of my words since this is what
  you have accused me of doing to you many times.

> I hope this is something we can both agree on.

  We agree that there are more important matters to argue about, except
  that you have called it sin to not do a certain thing on a specific day.
  And perhaps our understanding of "sin" has assisted in the emphasis
  places in this string.

  Mark

The following two or three notes are intended to be my final entries on
this, but I've had little success with these types of intentions.  Scripture
must be read with three things in mind:

o Observation
    What has happened?
    What is the context of the text?
o Interpretation
    What does it mean to me?
o Application
    How can I apply this to my life?

With this in mind, the following notes are a quick study on the sabbath.

  =========================================================================
                                OBSERVATION
  =========================================================================

  --------------------------------------
  I.  Definition of "sabbath"
  --------------------------------------
  Sabbath means "weekly intermission" or "day of repose" (rest).  It also
  is a name of the literal day (like "Saturday").  Source: Strong's
  Concordance

  --------------------------------------
  II.  Exodus 16:23
  --------------------------------------
  The first mention of the sabbath is in Exodus 16 before the Ten
  Commandments. The context of the sabbath in Exodus 16 is in gathering
  manna. Twice as much was to be gathered on the sixth day.  None was to be
  gathered in the seventh day.  In Exodus 16:23, Moses  tells the people
  that the Lord says, "Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to
  the Lord."  This is the first time the sabbath is mentioned in Scripture.

     a. Moses said the Lord commanded a Sabbath for the seventh day
     b. to Israelites who have come out of Egypt.
     c. "tomorrow" was the seventh day
     d. a day of rest

  --------------------------------------
  III. Exodus 20 (The fourth of Ten Commandments)
  --------------------------------------
   8  Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
   9  Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
  10  But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it
      thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter,
      thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger
      that is within thy gates:
  11  For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that
      in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed
      the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

     a. observance is a commandment given by God
     b. to Israel through Moses
     c. do your work in six days, rest on the seventh
         and include everyone under your care in that rest
     d. for rememberance of God's rest
     e. God blessed it and hallowed the sabbath

  --------------------------------------
  IV.   Exodus 31:13-16
  --------------------------------------
  13  Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, verily my
  sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout
  your generations; that ye may know that I am the Lord that doth sanctify
  you.

  14  Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every
  one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth
  any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

  15  Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest,
  holy to the Lord: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall
  surely be put to death.

  16  Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe
  the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

     a. Audience is Israel
     b. commandment to keep sabbath
     c. why? it is a sign between God and Israel
          throughout Israel's generations
     d. so that the Israelite know that God is God and
          sabctifies His chosen people.
     e. violation is a capital offense
     f. a perpetual covenant (agreement between two parties)

  --------------------------------------
  V.   Various passages in Leviticus and Deutoronomy:
  --------------------------------------
     a. Sabbath day rules and regulations
        i.    kindle no fire            Ex. 35:20
        ii.   afflict your souls        Lv. 16:31
        iii.  keep (maintain) it        Lv. 19:3,30
        iv.   holy convocation; no work Lv. 23:3
        v.    priests wave sheafs       Lv. 23:11
        vii.  *** others not listed
                  to save space ***

  --------------------------------------
  VI.  Leviticus 23:24
  --------------------------------------
  "Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the seventh month, in the
  first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath, a memorial of blowing of
  trumpets, an holy convocation."

     a. Commandment by God
     b. Audience: Israel
     c. A sabbath that occurs on the first day - not on the seventh day.

  --------------------------------------
  VII.  Leviticus 23:32
  --------------------------------------
  "It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall afflict your souls:
  in the ninth day of the month at even, from even unto even, shall ye
  celebrate your sabbath."

     a. Commandment by God
     b. Audience: Israel
     c. A sabbath that occurs on the ninth day - not on the seventh day.
     d. Referred here as "your sabbath"  (cross reference Jesus' declaration
        of the sabbath being made for man)

  --------------------------------------
  VIII.  Leviticus 23:39
  --------------------------------------
  "Also in the fifteenth day of the seventh month, when ye have gathered in
  the fruit of the land, ye shall keep a feast unto the LORD seven days: on
  the first day shall be a sabbath, and on the eighth day shall be a
  sabbath."

     a. Commandment by God
     b. Audience: Israel
     c. A sabbath that occurs on the first and eighth day - not on the
        seventh day.

  --------------------------------------
  IX.  Leviticus 25:4 & Leviticus 25:8
  --------------------------------------
  "4  But in the seventh year shall be a sabbath of rest unto the land, a
  sabbath for the LORD: thou shalt neither sow thy field, nor prune thy
  vineyard."

  "8  And thou shalt number seven sabbaths of years unto thee, seven times
  seven years; and the space of the seven sabbaths of years shall be unto
  thee forty and nine years."

     a. Commandment by God
     b. Audience: Israel
     c. Sabbath refers to the seventh year
     d. for the land
     e. the land has an "intermission commanded"

  --------------------------------------
  X.  Numbers 28:9-10
  --------------------------------------
  9 And on the sabbath day two lambs of the first year without spot, and two
  tenth deals of flour for a meat offering, mingled with oil, and the drink
  offering thereof: 10  This is the burnt offering of every sabbath, beside
  the continual burnt offering, and his drink offering.

     a. Commandment by God
     b. Audience: Israel
     c. Burnt offering commanded

  --------------------------------------
  XI.  1 Chronicles 23:31  (see also 2 Chr. 8:13)
  --------------------------------------
  "And to offer all burnt sacrifices unto the Lord in the sabbaths, in the
  new moons, and on the set feasts, by number, according to the order
  commanded unto them, continually before the Lord;"

     a.  more burnt offerings on the sabbath
     b.  New moons? (?)

  --------------------------------------
  XII. Nehemiah 9:14
  --------------------------------------
  "And madest known unto them thy holy sabbath, and commandedst them
  precepts, statutes, and laws, by the hand of Moses thy servant:"

     a.  Who made the sabbath known?   God.
     b.  Made known to whom?           Israel.
     c.  Through whom?                 Moses.

  --------------------------------------
  XIII.  Isaiah 56:2,4,6
  --------------------------------------

  2  Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth
  hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his
  hand from doing any evil.

  4  For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and
  choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

  6  Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to
  serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every
  one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my
  covenant;

  a. ...that keep the sabbath.  To whom is God speaking?
      i.   the man (of Israel?)
      ii.  eunuchs (in Israel?)
      iii. sons of the stranger that join themselves to the LORD
             (why not the stranger himself?)
      iv.  every one (of the sons of the stranger?)
  b. Audience: could be Israel only; could be Israel and all others.

  --------------------------------------
  XIV.   Ezekiel 20:
  --------------------------------------
   a. admonitions for profaning the sabbath
     b. audience: Israel, the covenant people

  =========================================================================
                              INTERPRETATION
  =========================================================================

  It should not be glossed over that the sabbath was commanded for Israel.
  Israel is a people, chosen by God, to bear witness to the world of the
  Living God.  It was commanded for Israel as a sign between God and
  Israel.  This theme is repeated over and over in the context of God's
  covenant with His people Israel.

  God commanded sabbaths to be observed on days other than the seventh day.
  While these are in addition to the weekly sabbath, it shows that there is
  more than one specific sabbath day.

  Further, God declares a sabbath for the land.  People are to observe the
  sabbath year for the land.  It is a different sabbath-keeping than the
  weekly sabbath, also showing that there is sabbath other than "the"
  seventh day.

  One assertion claims that because (a) Israel is God's chosen people, and
  (b) because we are adopted into God's family, that (c) we are also chosen
  of  God; i.e. "Chosen people" [too]. Therefore, a "spiritual Israel."
  Therefore (d) the literal sabbath should be maintained by the spiritual
  Israel.  Hmmm.  Does anyone else see a breakdown of logic here?

  =========================================================================
                                 APPLICATION
  =========================================================================

  Perhaps there are other passages of New testament Scripture that can show
  us that the literal sabbath was intended for more than just the literal
  Israel.  Or perhaps the reasons for the sabbath are more important than
  the literal sabbath.
  .........................................................................
  =========================================================================
                                OBSERVATION
  =========================================================================

  What the Bible *** DOES NOT *** say about the sabbath
                     ========

  o  Sunday-keeping is a human institution
  o  Christians are obligated to keep any certain day
       or especially the Jewish sabbath
  o  The Lord's Day (commonly known as Sunday) is the Jewish sabbath
  o  Christian are not to work on Saturday
  o  The law of Moses was for Gentiles as well as for Jews
  o  The fourth commandment was a sign between God and the gentiles
       as STATED of God and Israel in Exodus 31:13-17, Deut. 5:12-15,
       and Ezekiel 20:12-13
  o  Saturday was the only day that the apostles recognized as the day
       of rest and worship
  o  People before Moses observed a sabbath
  o  Sunday cannot be as holy as any other day sanctified or set apart
       for the worship of God.


  =========================================================================
                              INTERPRETATION
  =========================================================================

  Because the Bible is >silent< on these issues, the relative weight of the
  issue is small compared to other matters of importance, such as faith in
  God to save.

  =========================================================================
                                 APPLICATION
  =========================================================================

  The spiritual application should be observed since the literal
  application has a specific audience.  Christ came to fulfill the law, not
  to place us under its bondage.
  .........................................................................

                   TEN COMMANDMENTS WERE NEVER RECINDED.

  An argument was made that the Ten Commandments were never repealed by
  God.  The Ten Commandments were given by God and is a summation of the
  whole law.  Jesus further reduced this summation to two commandments
  based on Deuteronomy 6:5 and "love your neighhbor as yourself."

  The following chart discusses the progression from the Old Testament
  (Old Covenant) to the New Testament (New Covenent) in regards to Jesus'
  declaration that he had not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
  The chart shows the literal ten commandments (paraphrased; the letter of
  the law) and their fulfilling application (the spirit of the law).
  In the last column, the negation of the law (the effect of repealing the
  law) is given for contrast.

     =============================================================
     Commandment        Fulfillment         Negation
     =============================================================
     No gods before  ->  The love of       |  Do what you please
     Me              ->  money is the root |
                     ->  of all evil       |
                                           |
     Do not use      ->  We are temples    |  Call yourself
     God's name      ->  of the Holy       |  Christian, but
     lightly         ->  Ghost             |  do what you please
                                           |
     No graven       ->  The love of       |  Do what you please
     images (idols)  ->  money is the root |
                     ->  of all evil       |
                                           |
*    Keep the        ->  "Keep the         |  Throw out the notion
*    Sabbath         ->  Sabbath" ???      |  of a sabbath
                                           |
     Honor Father    ->  Obey your         |  Be your own man
     and Mother      ->  parents           |
                                           |
     Do not kill     ->  Do not hate       |  Murder is okay
                                           |
     Do not commit   ->  Do not lust       |  Commit adultery
     Adultery        ->                    |
                                           |
     Do not steal    ->  Do unto others... |  Take what you want
                                           |
     Do not bear     ->  Let your yes be   |  Protect yourself at
     false witness   ->  yes and no be no  |  all costs
                                           |
     Do not covet    ->  Be content in     |  It doesn't matter
                     ->  all things        |  what you feel
     =============================================================

  Some sabbath keepers would have people believe that keeping the sabbath
  on any day except between sundown Friday to Sundown Saturday (hereafter
  written as F-S) is tantamount to throwing out the notion of a sabbath.

  Jesus' comments about the sabbath were directed at the people of Israel.
  In fact, they were more directed at the people who taught the Jewish
  laws.  What Jesus said about the sabbath was that it was right and proper
  to do good on the sabbath.

...more

  Did Jesus say that Gentiles were to observe the Jewish Sabbath? No.
  Neither did he say that Gentiles shouldn't keep the Jewish Sabbath. What
  did Jesus say about the Gentiles?  Not much at all.  We do know that he
  interacted with them on a few occasions.  On one of those occasions,
  Jesus makes an interesting statement: "I am not sent but unto the lost
  sheep of the house of Israel."  The Gentile woman persisted, recognizing
  the Lordship of Christ and because of her faith in Jesus, her daughter
  was healed.  No where does it say or imply that she should adopt certain
  laws.

  In another case, Jesus speaks to a Samaritan woman.  Samaria had polluted
  the Jewish religion and intermingled with pagans.  As such, they were
  despised by good Jews.  Accentuating this outrage of the Rabbi conversing
  with a Samaritan, it was not proper for a woman to converse with a man
  as the story relates to us.  They talk of spiritual matters and
  specifically what constitutes a true worshiper of God.  Jesus said that
  true worshipers of god will worship Him in spirit and in truth.

  One might infer by this that worshiping in spirit and in truth includes
  a Sabbath day observance, since Jesus came to fulfill the law, not
  abolish it.  However, inference makes for poor proof-texting.

  Continuing: how does one progress from the OT-NT, action to attitude, and
  precept to principle, with regards to keeping a Sabbath day?  Is it to
  continue to keep the Sabbath day in one's action or in one's attitude?
  Is it to keep the precept or the principle?

  It certainly does not hurt anything to keep both the precept and the
  principle.  But one must remember that the precept is subordinate to the
  principle.  The action is subordinate to the attitude.

  The question then arises whether there are other subordinates to the
  principle.  Consider the commandment to make no graven image.  The Ahmish
  believe the photograph is a graven image.  This precept (not to take
  pictures), is subordinate to the principle of keeping God first.

  So too is the precept of keeping the Sabbath on a F-S subordinate to
  the principle of "remembering [the reasons God gave] the Sabbath day."

  If the principle (spirit) of the Sabbath is to rest one day in seven, to
  reflect on God's rest after creation, to set it apart (holy) for Godly
  things, then the precept of F-S *and* Sunday Sabbaths is subordinate to
  the spirit of the commandment.  In fact, any day is permissible under the
  principle and attitude of the Sabbath (intermission; repose) day.

  What other ways can the precept of the Sabbath day be brought into the
  realm of principle and attitude: the fulfillment of the law?   I suppose
  one could do more than rest physically by resting "emotionally and
  spiritually."  This is a possible explanation to keep F-S and yet
  bring the precept into the principle.  But what does it mean?

  After Jesus, the Sabbath day is mentioned 10 times.  Nine times it occurs
  in the narrative of Acts and is almost connected to the reading of the
  Word in the synagogue.  The audience has changed from just Jews to "Jews
  and Gentiles" and "Jews and Greeks."  The message is about salvation,
  and Messiah has come out of Judaism.  The tenth time the New Testament
  mentions the Sabbath is in Colossians, admonishing people not to "let no
  man judge you... in respect of... the Sabbath days."

  Were the Gentiles and Greeks who converted to Christ required to become
  Jewish to be saved?  Were they required to become Jewish to retain their
  salvation?  Some would say "yes, because Jesus was a Jew and we are to
  follow Jesus and keep His commandments."  I would say that this is
  incomplete logic.  Jesus was a Jew and came through Israel, but he came
  to save the world from sin through belief in Him, not as a Jew, but as
  the Son of God who has the power to forgive sin.

  Secondly, as has already been discussed, there were people who did
  believe that Gentiles needed to become Christians by first obeying the
  Law of Moses (which is the law God gave to Moses).  These people are
  known to us as the Judaizers or the Circumcision group.  The Bible
  passages that record this event is clear that Gentiles converting to
  Christ DO NOT NEED TO CONVERT TO JUDAISM in order to convert to Christ.
  Yet, some people would like to say, "yeah, but keeping the (F-S) isn't
  Jewish; its for everyone" or "when you come to Christ, you are adopted
  into His family and are therefore a 'spiritual Jew' which means that
  you should observe F-S Sabbath."   Both of these arguments are shown to
  be inconclusive (at best) or just plain wrong (at worst).

  Many other words have been written about freedom from the law to the Law
  of Love which is the fulfillment of the letter; the letter of the law is
  subordinate to the spirit of the law of love.  The letter of the literal
  F-S is also subordinated to the spirit of the law of love regarding one
  day in seven to commemorate God's goodness towards us, leading us out of
  bondage and slavery into His rest.
%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Mark

    the KISS method says, "I'll take eternal rest over a weekly rest any
    day!"

    I'm just glad we are all worshipping God.  This bickering really is
    growing tiresome.  Its like pounding someone in the ground to make a
    point, and not taking in consideration that persons feelings at all.
    
    No flames intended or wanted.  
    
    
    Sigh,
    
    
    dlh

        Greetings again, all.

        I've heard the principles vs. commandments argument before. This is
        how I came to grips with it:
	
		"If you love me, keep my principles."

		"For this is the love of God, that you keep His
		principles."

		"I am come not to destroy [God's] principles ..."

		What then, do we make void the principles? God forbid. Yea,
		we establish the principles."

	Incidentally, the word fullfill does not mean "make void" or
	"annul". Look it up. I don't have it handy, but the 1848 Webster's
	definition is particularly enlightening.

	Peace,
		Tony
	

        Aside from the disagreement on the obligations of Christians to God
        to honor Him for the generous provision of our salvation by His
        Grace through our Faith in His Son our Lord Jesus Christ:

        1.  Has anybody else detected the metamorphosis of traditional
        church hierarchies?

        2. Has anybody seen a growing number of once strong churches being
        rent by division and recalcitrance on the part of the leadership?

	3. Has anybody else experienced more "churchianity" than
	christianity in even the independant fundamental churches?

	4. Have you seen too much deadness in fundamental churches and too
	much chaos in charismatic churches? 

        5. Is the Spirit of God moving in the Body of Christ with New
        Winds?

	Regards,
		Tony
		

    
    RE:  .103
    
    >>more "churchianity" than christianity
    
    I love it!!!  It says SO MUCH.
    
    God Bless,
    Janet Brown

    re .103
    
    Although this may be a little sidestep from your note, 
    I have seen some churches subordinating themselves to 
    current social attitudes.  Doctrines or church charters 
    are more firmly grounded in societal acceptance than 
    in Scripture.  Seems backwards to me.  If a church 
    isn't going to hold the line on something as basic as 
    morality, who will?
    
    From this I have seen previously strong churches break 
    up, either through a confrontational split or through 
    a great part of the spiritual backbone of the church 
    leaving to look for fellowship grounded in the Word.
    
    Otto

RE: <<< Note 574.105 by ASDG::RANDOLPH >>>

        Amen, Otto! Your post is not a sidestep at all, but highlights one
	of the most destructive forces in our churches today.

	Peace,
		Tony
		

    re: last two
    
    Not only in our churches, but sadly in our entire society.  I feel this
    makes us responsible for the over all decline...  We must bring His
    message...
    
    In His Love,
    
    Daryl
    

  >>  Other clear violations are the celebration of pagan holidays
  >>  while ignoring the Feasts of God. Christmas, Easter, Halloween, etc.
    
    Jesus celebrated the feast of lights with the jews.  This law was not
    ordained under the Mosaic law.
    
    -Jack

RE: <<< Note 574.108 by AIMHI::JMARTIN >>>

>>    Jesus celebrated the feast of lights with the jews.  This law was not
>>    ordained under the Mosaic law.
    
	Chapter and verse, please.

	Jesus did not forsake the Feasts of God and replace them with
	anything else. 

        Also, I believe Channukah is a celebration of a miracle involving
        oil supply for the temple lamps during the the Macabeean rebellion,
        not based in pagan sun worship. Channukah is not Saturnalia. It is
        more akin to a national holiday, like our Thanksgiving.

        The degree to which the Jewish feasts have absorbed the traditions
        of the pagans is the degree to which they have been polluted. To
        see how the feasts are to be observed, see Leviticus 23. To see how
        they are not to be polluted by the traditions of the heathen, read
        Psalms, Proverbs, and the prophets. 

        Peace,
		Tony
		

>>  Other clear violations are the celebration of pagan holidays
>>  while ignoring the Feasts of God. Christmas, Easter, Halloween, etc.

Characterizing the Feast of the Nativity of Our Lord and and the
Feast of the Resurrection of Our Lord as pagan holidays certainly
seems like a ridiculous position.

Hopefully no churches celebrate Halloween, unless it be a completely
Christian celebration avoiding ghosts and ghouls and commemorating
famous people in the life of the Church devoted to the Gospel of Christ.

/john

1 Maccabees 4:36-59, King James Version:

Then said Judas and his brethren, Behold, our enemies are discomfited: let
us go up to cleanse and dedicate the sanctuary. Upon this all the host
assembled themselves together, and went up into mount Sion. And when they
saw the sanctuary desolate, and the altar profaned, and the gates burned
up, and shrubs growing in the courts as in a forest, or in one of the
mountains, yea, and the priests' chambers pulled down; They rent their
clothes, and made great lamentation, and cast ashes upon their heads, And
fell down flat to the ground upon their faces, and blew an alarm with the
trumpets, and cried toward heaven.

Then Judas appointed certain men to fight against those that were in the
fortress, until he had cleansed the sanctuary. So he chose priests of
blameless conversation, such as had pleasure in the law: Who cleansed the
sanctuary, and bare out the defiled stones into an unclean place. And when
as they consulted what to do with the altar of burnt offerings, which was
profaned; They thought it best to pull it down, lest it should be a
reproach to them, because the heathen had defiled it: wherefore they pulled
it down, And laid up the stones in the mountain of the temple in a
convenient place, until there should come a prophet to shew what should be
done with them.

Then they took whole stones according to the law, and built a new altar
according to the former; And made up the sanctuary, and the things that
were within the temple, and hallowed the courts. They made also new holy
vessels, and into the temple they brought the candlestick, and the altar of
burnt offerings, and of incense, and the table. And upon the altar they
burned incense, and the lamps that were upon the candlestick they lighted,
that they might give light in the temple. Furthermore they set the loaves
upon the table, and spread out the veils, and finished all the works which
they had begun to make.

Now on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month, which is called the
month Casleu, in the hundred forty and eighth year, they rose up betimes in
the morning, And offered sacrifice according to the law upon the new altar
of burnt offerings, which they had made. Look, at what time and what day
the heathen had profaned it, even in that was it dedicated with songs, and
citherns, and harps, and cymbals. Then all the people fell upon their
faces, worshipping and praising the God of heaven, who had given them good
success.

And so they kept the dedication of the altar eight days and offered burnt
offerings with gladness, and sacrificed the sacrifice of deliverance and
praise. They decked also the forefront of the temple with crowns of gold,
and with shields; and the gates and the chambers they renewed, and hanged
doors upon them. Thus was there very great gladness among the people, for
that the reproach of the heathen was put away. Moreover Judas and his
brethren with the whole congregation of Israel ordained, that the days of
the dedication of the altar should be kept in their season from year to
year by the space of eight days, from the five and twentieth day of the
month Casleu, with mirth and gladness.

RE: <<< Note 574.110 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>


RE: <<< Note 574.110 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

	Hi, John.

        Observance of the The Feast of the Nativity (Christmas) is not in
        the Bible. This does not disqualify the observance of a feast, but,
        to me, a pagan origin does. As a matter of discernment, we choose
        not to observe this one. For a treatment on the pagan origins of
        this feast, please consult the following. 

	1001 Christmas Facts and Fancies - Alfred Carl Hottes, 1937
	The American Christmas - James H. Barnett, 1954
	A Book of Christmas - William Sansom, 1968
	The Glory and Pageantry of Christmas - Time-Life, 1963

        I have an audio tape about Christmas that I can mail you if you are
        interested. Contact me off-line.

        Easter is the celebration of the Vernal Equinox and the fertility
        Goddess (Teutonic Oestre, OT Ishtar). It is rarely congruent with
        the Day of Firstfruits (Lev 23:9-14), which is the actual day upon
        which Christ arose in fulfillment of the prophecy of that
        particular feast. The Day of Firstfruits is the first day of the
        week (Sunday, by secular reckoning) following Passover, which is
        the day upon which our Lord was crucified. He is our Passover Lamb,
        the Firstfruits of the resurrection. 

	Peace,
		Tony
		

RE: <<< Note 574.111 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

	Hi, John.

	Thanks for the passage from 1 Maccabees, but I was looking for the
	passage where Jesus observed this feast.

	From 1 Maccabees, it can be easily discerned that this feast did
	not have a pagan origin and was actually a national holiday.
	
	Peace, Tony
	

** This Feast is not prescribed by the Lord but is mentioned in Scripture **

Hanukkah (or Chanukkah) - Feast of Dedication (November-December)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Hanukkah celebrates the defeat of an anti-Semite.  Antiochus Epiphanes defiled
the Temple and set up an image of himself on the altar.  He made the pagan,
Greek way of life mandatory.  But some zealous Jews, under the strong leadership
of Judah Maccabee, fought the strongest army in the world for 3 years, and won
back the Temple.  On the 25th of Kislev they rededicated the Temple and lit the
menorah, the Temple lamp.  Tradition teaches that miraculously, 1 day's supply
of oil lasted for 8 days; that is why the Hanukkah menorah has 8 candles and a
shamash, a servant candle to light the others, a picture of Jesus the servant.

This victory took place less than 200 years before Messiah's time.  It was an
important holy day in Israel when he was on earth.  This lends understanding to
what is written in the good news according to Yochanan (John 10:22-24).

How Judah Maccabee would have mourned that so many of his people did not believe
that Jesus was the Messiah.  Yet they would rejoice today, knowing that so many
Jews have trusted in him, re-dedicating, and cleansing themselves as temples of
the Spirit of God (1 Peter 2:5).

Jesus observed this celebration as noted in John 10:22-24.  This celebration
lasts 8 nights and is observed each of the nights by lighting one of the 8
candles of the Hanukkah menorah.  Give a small gift to each child.  Families
play games with the dreidal and eat Latkes (potato pancakes fried in oil).
Symbols of this feast are Light (Jesus is the Light of the World) and Oil (The
Holy Spirit is often represented by oil in the Bible).  You can tell the story
of the Macabees and the miracle of the Menorah.  Good themes to emphasize are
the themes: God is a God of deliverance and God is a God of Miracles.  We sing
"Shine Jesus Shine" and "This Little Light of Mine" each night.

re .112

The claim that the Feasts of the Nativity and the Feast of the Resurrection
have a pagan origin is pure nonsense.

The origin of the Feast of the Nativity is the Birth of Christ.

The origin of the Feast of the Resurrection is Our Lord's springing forth
from the tomb.

Only misguided persons would seek to stifle the observance of these two
critically important events in salvation history, events which, though
foretold in the Old Testament, completely overshadow any prior event with
the possible exception of Creation itself.

It is legitimate to choose to suppress truly pagan elements that have
become associated with these feasts.  But only truly pagan elements.
I am rather convinced that the association of the word "Easter" with
"Ishtar" is bogus.  But even if it's legitimate, it's a problem for
English speaking people, and not for French speakers, where the word
is Pacques (from Paschal or Passover).  And that problem can be avoided
by referring to The Feast of the Resurrection.

The date calculation for the Feast of the Resurrection and the date assigned
to the Feast of the Nativity really have little to do with what is being
celebrated.  There are adequate Christian and biblical titles for Jesus
(e.g. the Sun of Righteousness) to present against all of the arguments the
devil might put into people's minds to prevent them from observing in great
joy these two key moments in our salvation history.

/john

>    I'm just glad we are all worshipping God.  This bickering really is
>    growing tiresome.  Its like pounding someone in the ground to make a
>    point, and not taking in consideration that persons feelings at all.
>    
>    No flames intended or wanted.  

Paul thought it important enough to vigorously oppose Peter and some
other Christians - worshippers of God.  Did Paul consider Peter's 
feelings over the Truth?  I've said my piece on the sabbath day
observance.  I certainly didn't expect to change the minds of Tony,
Tony, and Janet.  I certainly wasn't "pounding" them.  In fact, I
was not pounding their choice of sabbath.  What I have opposed is
the notion that making Sunday one's sabbath is not permissible.
Some people sit back and don't get into the fray.  Sorry, that isn't
me, when the fray is important; when the fray is about legalism of
the sabbath, or baptism (Acts 2:38), or "circumcision."

I know that I have injured some of your feelings, and for that I am
sorry.  However, there are times for vigorous opposition... even among
dedicated Christians.  Paul and Barnabas split up over an issue.
God used it to send out two missionary journeys, bringing good from 
a bad thing.  

Conflict happens.  And it happens among dedicated, loving Christians.
(And I've been chastised for this before.)  And because what I have
said hurts, it doesn't mean my words are without love, even when 
they cannot be felt.  I'm not sure Peter felt very loved when Paul
opposed him.  I wonder if Peter felt loved when Jesus said, "get behind
me, Satan."  I wonder if the disciples felt loved when Jesus got 
frustrated with them and called them "ye of little faith" and worse.

Legalism is bondage and Christ has set us free from the bondage of
the law to the Law of Love, and anyone who wants to set a millstone 
of legalism around your neck should be opposed by God-fearing Christians.
Love wouldn't stand idly by to have people tossed to and fro by every
doctrine.

I am sorry if I have injured you, and Tony, and anyone else.
I am not sorry to proclaim the Truth.

Mark

      re: -1
    
      Hi Mark,
    
        Thanks for your reply.  I'm sure its another thing we disagree
        on, but I happen to believe that when Paul rebuked Peter or
        when Jesus did, that love for them was also evident.  We agree
        that often scripture is a very quick synopsis of events.  We 
        don't know facial expressions, gestures, etc.
    
        But, I believe love was evident.
    
        I've no problem with what you said, I had a problem with HOW it
        was said.  With my believe as stated above, love could have been
        more evident.  And I know its hard with this mode of communication.
    
        I think Andy Y. is a master at this.  Content-wise, he'll get the
        message accross.  There will be no missing the mark there.  But,
        you'll know love is there and you will see that an effort had been
        made to demonstrate it.
    
        I also thought you crossed that line of stating why such and such
        as in you knew I'd refuse the plain statement of the word or what-
        ever it was you said.  Well, if that be the case, you know better
        than I do.
    
                                                   Tony

RE: <<< Note 574.114 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

        Excellent entry! Thanks for the passage showing Jesus observing
        this feast (John 10:22-24).

	Again, this feast is a national holiday, commemorating a victory
	over the Hellenic invaders. There is no pagan origin to this feast.
	Incidentally, I remember reading somewhere that Antiochus Epiphanes
	defiled the temple by slaughtering a pig on the altar. 
	
	Peace,
		Tony

>	Incidentally, I remember reading somewhere that Antiochus Epiphanes
>	defiled the temple by slaughtering a pig on the altar. 
    
    makes it even more humorous that he set up an "image of himself" on the
    altar!

    Everything in the Torah (or the Pentateuch - the 5 Books of Moses) has
    a prophetic as well as historical significance and merits our careful
    attention.  Jesus indicated this:
    
Matthew 5:17
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to
destroy, but to fulfil.

    Paul also emphasized it:
    
Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning,
that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

    The prophetic role of the feasts is also highlighted by Paul:
    
Colossians 2:16
Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an
holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

Colossians 2:17
Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

    The New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed; the Old Testament
    is in the New Testament revealed!
    
    The many types or pictures I've been entering on Jesus Christ in the
    "Pictures of Jesus" topic are the New Testament in the Old Testament
    concealed.  There are stacks of books about 4 feet high on just the
    symbolism in the Tabernacle alone that all points to Jesus Christ.  
    Jesus Christ the Messiah revealed Himself and the Old Testament ways in 
    the New Testament.  This includes the Sabbath rest!
    
    Mike

Shabbat - The Sabbath (weekly)
------------------------------
As the sun slowly sets on Friday night, Shabbat, the Sabbath, begins.  It is the
7th day.  The whole week leads up to Shabbat, the day of rest.  Every other day
of the week is viewed in its relationship to Shabbat: "three days until, two
days after."  Shabbat is the crowning glory of the week.

Two Hebrew words are used to describe Shabbat: malkah (queen) and kallah
(bride).  Shabbat is a royal, beautiful woman, one to be wooed.

This is an incredible picture of the Messianic Kingdom.  Scripture teaches that
to the Lord 1 day is like 1000 years (Psalm 90:4 and 2 Peter 3:8-10).  In God's
7-day week, each day represents 1000 years.  The final day of that week is the
Shabbat of God, the 1000-year long Messianic Kingdom.  This millennium is like
the queen, the bride, whom we await each week.  Not only do we eagerly
anticipate her coming, but we work toward her arrival, as a man works for a
bride.  Jacob worked for Rachel 7 years; the time sped by, for his goal was so
beloved.  It is proper for us, too, to work all week to earn our bride, the
Shabbat rest.  And while there is daylight, let us work toward the most worthy
goal - the Shabbat of the Messianic Kingdom (Hebrews 4:9-11).

Jews observe the weekly Shabbat with a meal opening with bread and wine on
Friday night at sundown.  Christians can modify and celebrate communion on
Saturday night as a family before the meal begins.

The wife begins the Shabbat with the lighting of 2 candles representing the rest
of Creation and the rest of Redemption.  The husband blesses the cup and the
bread.  Then he blesses the wife and the children.

Leviticus 23:1-3
Matthew 11:28-30 (Jesus is our rest!)
Hebrews 4:1-11 (We rest in His work for us!)

RE: <<< Note 574.115 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

        Rather than dismiss this as "pure nonsense," why not investigate
        it. Surely, you would want to know the truth. I am willing to
        provide you the material if you are willing to read or hear it.
        Then you can judge for yourself. 

        Read Eze 8:9-18 and Jer 10:1-5 for starters. The winter solstice
        celebration of the birth of Tammuz, (the son of sun-god Baal and
        Semaremis (sp?), queen of heaven) predates the birth of Christ by
        many centuries and presents a an unholy counterfeit. The Egyptians
        celebrated the birth of Horus, son of Isis, at the end of our
	December.

        A better time to celebrate the birth of Christ is Feast of
        Trumpets. The trumpet announces the coming of Messiah, at His birth
        and on the Day of the Lord.
	
        There is no "Feast of the Resurrection" in the Bible. The Feast of
        Firstfruits, which is the correct day of Christ's resurrection,
        rarely falls on "Easter Sunday". The French Pacques is equivalent
        to the Italian Pasqua, both referring to Passach, or Passover.
        Easter is not Passover, but the Latin languages seem to have a
        better handle on what the real thing is all about. Incidentally,
        the Italian word for Saturday is Sabato. 

	Regards,
		Tony
		

RE:        <<< Note 574.119 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

>	Incidentally, I remember reading somewhere that Antiochus Epiphanes
>	defiled the temple by slaughtering a pig on the altar. 
    
>>    makes it even more humorous that he set up an "image of himself" on the
>>    altar!

	I love it!!!!!! "%^)   "%^)   "%^)   "%^)   

	Peace,
		Tony

Tony,

No Feast of the Resurrection in the bible?  The event and all the rejoicing
associated with it certainly _is_ there.  The cause for celebration is clear.

It is probably the oldest observance of the early Christian Church other
than Sunday, and its date was definitively established by the first Council
of Nicaea.

If you don't hold the first four Ecumenical Councils of the Church to be
authoritative, there is little for you and me to discuss.

/john

RE: Notes 574.12 and 574.121 by FRETZ::HEISER 

        Excellent entries!!!

	God bless you,
		Tony
		

RE: <<< Note 574.124 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

>>If you don't hold the first four Ecumenical Councils of the Church to be
>>authoritative, there is little for you and me to discuss.

        I don't hold the councils or traditions of men above Scripture.
        Where they agree with Scripture, good, where they do not, bad.
        Whether this means to you that there is little for us to discuss,
        it does not mean so to me.

	God bless you,
		Tony
		

>I don't hold the councils or traditions of men above Scripture.

Neither do I.  Participants in Councils are servants to the Word of God,
entrusted with the authority to interpret Scripture under the guidance
of the Holy Spirit and in a manner consistent with the teachings of the
Apostles.  The Council of Nicaea determined, under the guidance of both
Scripture and the Holy Spirit, to observe the annual celebration of Our
Lord's Resurrection on a specific date.  Prior to the Council, the Feast
had been observed annually on various different dates according to local
usage from Apostolic times.

I won't demand that you only celebrate a Feast of the Resurrection on
a specific date -- in my parish church the Resurrection is celebrated
every single day in the Holy Eucharist -- but consider the following:

	Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
	Therefore let us keep the feast.		(1 Cor 5:7b-8a)

Now certainly St. Paul is speaking of not just the Paschal feast, but of
the entire feast of life.  Christians celebrate Christ as our Paschal
Lamb every time they celebrate the Holy Communion.  But this passage can
also be used to legitimately allow a special annual celebration of Christ's
passover from death into life on an anniversary of the actual event, the
date to be fixed by competent Church authority.

To claim that celebrating The Feast of the Resurrection is wrong (as you
appear to be doing) is to claim that the Church does not have authority to
bind and loose (to decide what is right and wrong) that Jesus conferred
upon the Apostles and their successors.

You seem to be happy with Chanukah as a "national feast" established by
temple authorities to commemorate the victory by Israel and the regaining
of the temple which contains a shadow of the real tabernacle.  Why, then,
do you not allow Church authorities to establish a Feast for All of God's
People to commemorate the victory by Christ and his regaining entry for us
into the real tabernacle?  [Hebrews 9:11]

The Feast of the Resurrection is the ultimate National Feast of the Holy
Nation [1 Peter 2:9] of all faithful Christian believers.

/john

RE: <<< Note 574.127 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

	Hi, John.

	Thanks for your thoughtful and informative reply. 

>>	Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:
>>	Therefore let us keep the feast.		(1 Cor 5:7b-8a)

        I take this to mean we should keep the Passover and likely the
        whole 8-Days of unleavened bread, which includes the Day of
        Firstfruits.

>>the date to be fixed by competent Church authority.

        What church authority is more competent than God Himself? He chose
        the day of Firstfruits as the day of the Resurrection, both as a
        shadow in the OT (Lev 23), and as reality in the Resurrection of
        Christ. 

        I do not claim that celebrating the Resurrection is wrong. I do
        believe that forcing it to coincide with the pagan feast of Easter
        is wrong. The correct day is the Day of Firstfruits, as testified
        in Scripture, the first Sunday after Passover. This day rarely
        occurs on Easter Sunday.

	Jesus was crucified on Passover. He is our Passover.
	Jesus arose on the Day of Firstfruits. He is the Firstfruits of the
	resurrection.

        You may disagree, but I still love and pray for you, brother.

	God bless you,
		Tony
		

      re: .124
    
      Hi John,
    
        The oldest observance of the Christian Church was not Sunday,
        but was (and is) the seventh day Sabbath.
    
                                                     Tony

RE: <<< Note 574.116 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

        Thanks, Mark for being a fierce defender of the Faith. We may
        disagree on some things, but more of us should be willing to take
        so strong a stand against what we perceieve as error and be
        willing to exhort and even reprove our brothers and sisters
        accordingly.

	I do not believe that the things upon which we disagree effect or
	affect Salvation. I certainly do not believe that anyone is
	justified by works of the Law.

        Paul, however, was fighting people who were predicating salvation
        on works of the Law or covenental signs (e.g., circumcision,
        baptism). Mark believes that the Sabbath is a covenental sign, I
        believe it is a commandment. Neither of us believes that observing
        it has anything to do with obtaining salvation. 

        Peace,
		Tony
		

.117> Tony B

>        We agree
>        that often scripture is a very quick synopsis of events.  We 
>        don't know facial expressions, gestures, etc.
>    
>        But, I believe love was evident.
>    
>        I've no problem with what you said, I had a problem with HOW it
>        was said.  With my believe as stated above, love could have been
>        more evident.

You don't know my facial expressions, gestures, etc. yet you have
judged HOW it was said.  Is this an objective or a subjective view?

Mark

.130>  Tony C.

Thanks Tony.  We agree.  It certainly should not be a point of contention
regarding salvation.  

It is when one attempts to make a day of rest other than F-S a sin that 
I'll take up my opposition.  And this may be part of my Wesleyan background 
regarding sin, that being a willful trangression against a known law of God.  
Sin separates us from God.

I state for the Nth time that I have no problem with people oberserving 
F-S as your sabbath; and yes, I believe it was a covenant sign, as 
Scripture seems to indicate - a commandment for the covenant.  I do
have a problem when someone then attempts to say "You should observe
this day of rest on F-S because of the covenant/commandment" because
I do not see this borne out of anything more than conviction.  Normally,
it is not a point of contention for salvation, but where sin is concerned,
sin is a point of contention.

Mark

    Notes have intonation period.  Oftimes intonation is misperceived by
    the reader and many times not.  I'm learning and I've been noting for a
    while now that never ASSUME intonation... ask.
    
    However, when one assumes the wrong intonation then YOU intended, be
    gentle to them in response, it is a VERY COMMON error in notes.
    
    Love in Him,
    to ya'll,
    Nancy

>        Paul, however, was fighting people who were predicating salvation
>        on works of the Law or covenental signs (e.g., circumcision,
>        baptism). Mark believes that the Sabbath is a covenental sign, I
>        believe it is a commandment. Neither of us believes that observing
>        it has anything to do with obtaining salvation. 

Tony (C),
  You've caused me to think about this.  We know that the commandment was
given to Moses.  We know that it is >at least< a covenant sign between
Israel and God.  How has this covenant sign been transferred outside of
physical Israel.  What other covenant signs do we claim for Gentile
Christians?  Why or why not?
  For example, wasn't circumcision a commandment and covenant sign?  Yet,
we have Acts to show that it is not required of Gentiles.
  I believe that there are reasons for commandments to be given.  Some
commandments were given specifically as a covenant sign (such as 
circumcision).  Some comandments were given to specific people, such
as "Go to Nineveh."  Some commandments have application BEYOND the 
specific and BEYOND even the covenant.  Apparently, you see the sabbath
as one of these.
  I see Deut 6:5 (Love God will all...) as one of these that transcends
specific and covenant.  Jesus affirmed this with the greatest commandment.
  Can you explain what the criteria are for a commandment exceeding the
covenant agreement between God and His Chosen people, or God and an
individual (such as Jonah, or Abraham)?

Mark

>        I do not claim that celebrating the Resurrection is wrong. I do
>        believe that forcing it to coincide with the pagan feast of Easter
>        is wrong. The correct day is the Day of Firstfruits, as testified
>        in Scripture, the first Sunday after Passover. This day rarely
>        occurs on Easter Sunday.

Do you trust one group of men (rabbis) to fix the date more accurately than
another group of men (the Christian Church in ecumenical council under the
guidance of the Holy Spirit)?  Do you not realize that the calculation of the
15th of Nisan is done by the same sort of man-made astronomical formulas --
a different mathmatical calculation of planetary movements is used.  Even
within the Christian Church the East and the West have chosen slightly
different interpretations of the decision at Nicaea for their calculations
and the eastern and western dates for commemorating the Resurrection almost
never coincide.

The claim that it coincides with a pagan feast is a device of the devil
to spread confusion within the Christian Church.  It is obviously false,
since the Christian Church in the East and West calculate TWO DIFFERENT
DATES on which to observe Our Lord's Resurrection!  If you wish to choose
a different date, using the Jewish calculation, I would say you are free
to do so (not that it's a good idea), but please don't claim that the rest
of the Church is pagan.

It is no more valid than the claim that Chanukah (which you do accept, even
though its date was set by man) was established to supplant a pagan solstice
festival or the Roman Sol Invicta festival.  There is a long line of claims
about Chanukah and the way it is observed, including such things as the
lighting of lamps being a pagan sign of the lengthening of days after the
solstice and all sorts of bogus stuff, all simply designed to meet the devil's
goal to tear down instead of build up.

/john

| <<< Note 574.133 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>


| However, when one assumes the wrong intonation then YOU intended, be
| gentle to them in response, it is a VERY COMMON error in notes.


	Nancy, this is only good if the person does not come back with
something like, "I know what you really meant"..... this happens all too often
in here. One explains what they mean, another still says they're wrong. Make
any sense to you? Doesn't to me.

      re: .131
    
      Hi Mark,
    
        Once again...we disagree!  ;-)
    
        I believe judging someone must be inclusive of condemnation.
        I really tried to point something out in love.  Hopefully,
        there was/is no condemning spirit in my heart.
    
        I was not speaking of what may or may have not been in your
        heart, I was speaking of only how I perceived your words.
        Actually, after making my reply I received word of others 
        who felt the same and thanked me.  Perhaps others sometimes
        perceive your words in the same vein and perhaps there is some
        credibility to this.
    
        I cannot know your heart.  
    
        Please take all that I said to be in the realm of how the 
        words seemed to come accross.
    
                                                   Tony
                                                      

>    Notes have intonation period.

Intonation - the act of singing the opening phrase of a psalm, plainsong,
or canticle; the act of chanting part of the liturgy usually in a monotone; 
the opening phrase of a Gregorian chant, usually sung by the priest alone.

/john

    Mark, may I ask you a few questions?  You don't have to answer if you
    don't care to.  But if you have a few spare moments I would like your
    thoughts:
    
    1. Do you believe that God gave Moses (see Ex. 20) a different set of
       Commandments than the ones mentioned before that in Gen 26:5?
    
    	"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my
    	 commandments, my statutes, and my laws."
    
    
    2. What about the fact that Exodus 15:26 talks about the Commandments
       before Moses got them from God?  See also Exodus 16:28 and 17:1
    
    
    3. Along with that, what about the fact that the Israelites were given
       explicit instructions about the Sabbath before Moses got the Ten
       Commandments from God?  See Exodus 16:23, 16:25-26, 16:29.
    
    
    4. In your opinion, under which covenant was Melchizedek, King of Salem
       saved?  The Bible says clearly that he was the priest of the Most
       High God, and that Abraham gave him a tithe because of it, and yet
       he was never a Jew.  Melchizedek was also called the King of
       Righteousness and King of Peace (Jeru-Salem is 'city of peace').  
       Hebrews 7:4 says we are to consider how great this man was. Jesus 
       was a priest after the order of Melchisedec, not after the order 
       of Aaron (Heb 7:11).
    
    Clearly there were people who worshipped God in a mighty way who were 
    not Jews even in Abrahams time.  The Sabbath was made for these people 
    also, uh.... first actually, since they were on the earth worshipping 
    God before the Jews existed.  And since Jesus is a priest after the
    order of Melchisedec, not of Aaron, we who follow Jesus and are not 
    Jews might reasonably do the same.  Or might even be called upon to do
    the same.
    
    Any thoughts?
    
    God Bless You,
    Janet Brown

    >    4. In your opinion, under which covenant was Melchizedek, King of Salem
>       saved?  The Bible says clearly that he was the priest of the Most
>       High God, and that Abraham gave him a tithe because of it, and yet
>       he was never a Jew.  Melchizedek was also called the King of
>       Righteousness and King of Peace (Jeru-Salem is 'city of peace').  
>       Hebrews 7:4 says we are to consider how great this man was. Jesus 
>       was a priest after the order of Melchisedec, not after the order 
>       of Aaron (Heb 7:11).

    Janet, what do you think of the possibility that Melchizedek *IS* Jesus
    Christ?

    thanks,
    Mike

.137>

I'll see your people and raise you one.  I too have people who send me
mail thanking me for standing up for the Truth.

>        I was not speaking of what may or may have not been in your
>        heart, I was speaking of only how I perceived your words.

How is your perception not judging the intent of my words?
Perception is a judgment and often an unfair one.  Once again
I am judged not on the content of my notes but the tone with which
they are perceived to come across.

Perhaps an understanding of people's temperaments could help alleviate
some of these misperceptions.  My guess is that the emotive persons
felt a tone from my words, and that the logical persons considered the
content and issue at hand.  And this leads me to believe that is the reason
why you got confirmation and I got confirmation also.  Hmmm. 

>        Please take all that I said to be in the realm of how the 
>        words seemed to come accross.

How they seemed is how you recieve them and not necessarily how they
were transmitted.  I'm sorry you received them the way you did and
perceived them as "words without love" (a judgment on me, unless you 
were using that as a title, but I perceive you were using them at me -
were you?).

On the same token, I would ask that you to take all I said without applying
inference and see the words for the content of their message, because
your perceptions regarding this matter, as well as of those who have
perceived it similarly, are a matter of opinion and do not reflect what
is in my heart.  In fact, I am puzzled when you accuse me of judging you,
because this is an unfair and often inaccurate judgment that you make!
(The pot calling the kettle black.)  If you don't see it, well, then I've
said all I can regarding this matter.  But consider who is on trial here
and for what.

Mark

>I'll see your people and raise you one.  I too have people who send me
>mail thanking me for standing up for the Truth.
    
    Just as a slight aside, I selfishly hope God keeps Mark on at DEC for
    this very reason.  Not many have the burden and knowledge of the Truth
    that Mark has.  I just read in amazement sometimes because I can see
    God revealing His Truth in his replies.  If it's God's Will that he
    joins SAVE, I pray God will raise up a replacement.
    
    Mike

    RE:  .140
    >>Janet, what do you think of the possibility that Melchizedek *IS*
    >>Jesus Christ?
    
    Hello Mike,
    
    I feel very strongly that Melchizedek is/was both the real King of
    Salem during the time of Abraham and that he may indeed be Jesus
    Christ.  If he was not actually Christ Himself, then he was a 'type' of
    Christ.  I was just reading about this aspect of Christ this morning
    during my Bible study and it fascinates me to the point of giving me
    goosebumps when I think about it.
    
    Now, Mike, how do you feel about it?
    
    Warmest Regards,
    Janet

    Based on the characteristics we know of Melchizedek, I think it not
    only was a type, but could actually be Christ Himself.  We will
    probably never know until we can ask Jesus, but the possibility is
    definitely there.
    
    Mike

.139>  I'll answer you questions, Janet:

>    1. Do you believe that God gave Moses (see Ex. 20) a different set of
>       Commandments than the ones mentioned before that in Gen 26:5?
>    
>    	"Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my
>    	 commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

It would be an assumption that they were the same commandments.  Scripture
does not state it.  Abraham was commanded to sacrifice Isaac.  This is one
of God's known commandments to Abraham that was not included in the Law
of Moses.

>      2. What about the fact that Exodus 15:26 talks about the Commandments
>       before Moses got them from God?  See also Exodus 16:28 and 17:1

   
 26  And said, if thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the Lord thy
God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his
commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases
upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the Lord that
healeth thee.

This is establishing a covenant.  "If you... then I will...:"

16:28  And the Lord said unto Moses, how long refuse ye to keep my commandments
and my laws?

Exodus 17:1  And all the congregation of the children of Israel journeyed
from the wilderness of sin, after their journeys, according to the commandment
of the Lord, and pitched in Rephidim: and there was no water for the people to
drink.

You would need to assume that the commandments were the same for 16:28.
The commandment in 17:1 was to make camp at Rephidim, or do you see
17:1 as supporting the commandments given to Moses in Exodus 20?
Also, for whom is the commandment given?  Should we all pitch our 
tents in Rephidim?

What you don't need to assume with any of this is WHO is being
referred to: the Israelites.

>    3. Along with that, what about the fact that the Israelites were given
>       explicit instructions about the Sabbath before Moses got the Ten
>       Commandments from God?  See Exodus 16:23, 16:25-26, 16:29.

    
 23  And he said unto them, this is that which the Lord hath said, to morrow
is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the Lord: bake that which ye will bake to
day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for
you to be kept until the morning.
 24  And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not
stink, neither was there any worm therein.
 25  And Moses said, eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the Lord:
to day ye shall not find it in the field.
 26  Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the
sabbath, in it there shall be none.
 27  And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the
seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
 28  And the Lord said unto Moses, how long refuse ye to keep my commandments
and my laws?
 29  See, for that the Lord hath given you the sabbath, therefore he giveth
you on the sixth day the bread of two days; abide ye every man in his place,
let no man go out of his place on the seventh day.

Here God declares to Moses that tomorrow is the holy sabbath unto the Lord.
I have explained this in .94 as such:

>  --------------------------------------
>  II.  Exodus 16:23
>  --------------------------------------
>  The first mention of the sabbath is in Exodus 16 before the Ten
>  Commandments. The context of the sabbath in Exodus 16 is in gathering
>  manna. Twice as much was to be gathered on the sixth day.  None was to be
>  gathered in the seventh day.  In Exodus 16:23, Moses  tells the people
>  that the Lord says, "Tomorrow is to be a day of rest, a holy Sabbath to
>  the Lord."  This is the first time the sabbath is mentioned in Scripture.
>
>     a. Moses said the Lord commanded a Sabbath for the seventh day
>     b. to Israelites who have come out of Egypt.
>     c. "tomorrow" was the seventh day
>     d. a day of rest

Again, it is important to whom God was speaking.  See b.
Here we see no reason why God has given the sabbath as we do in 
Exodus 20 except that God has declared it, not unlike a King 
proclaiming a holiday.

So far, there is no Scripture that points to a sabbath that was a part of
anything other than an Israelite commandment.  Did you see it somewhere?
Since the first sabbath commandment comes in Exodus and not Genesis,
why would anyone assume that it came before the Israelites were brought 
out of bondage in Egypt?  There is no record of this.

>    4. In your opinion, under which covenant was Melchizedek, King of Salem
>       saved?  The Bible says clearly that he was the priest of the Most
>       High God, and that Abraham gave him a tithe because of it, and yet
>       he was never a Jew.  Melchizedek was also called the King of
>       Righteousness and King of Peace (Jeru-Salem is 'city of peace').  
>       Hebrews 7:4 says we are to consider how great this man was. Jesus 
>       was a priest after the order of Melchisedec, not after the order 
>       of Aaron (Heb 7:11).
    
An interesting question, though I confess, I do not see its relation to
the sabbath.  Some speculation about Melchizedek was that he was Christ,
the second person of the Trinity, and epiphany of Jesus before His advent.
Melchizedek preceded the law of Moses.  He had no beginning or end (which 
fuels the Christ epiphany speculation).  I have no idea how to answer
this in reference to the law of Moses.  Do you think Melchizedek kept
a F-S sabbath?

>    Clearly there were people who worshipped God in a mighty way who were 
>    not Jews even in Abrahams time.  The Sabbath was made for these people 
>    also, uh.... first actually, since they were on the earth worshipping 
>    God before the Jews existed.  And since Jesus is a priest after the
<    order of Melchisedec, not of Aaron, we who follow Jesus and are not 
>    Jews might reasonably do the same.  Or might even be called upon to do
>    the same.

Where does it say that the sabbath was made for these people?  Oh, you
mean "the sabbath was made for man" verse?  It assumes that "the sabbath"
means "THE sabbath" and this, I believe, is not a valid assumption.
Where does it say that Melchizedek observed a F-S sabbath?  Jesus was
after the order of Melchizedek; a high priest.  Now, are you implying
that because Jesus, a Jew, observe the covenant law of Moses as a Jew
that the order of Melchizedek is contained with this law?  Rather,
the order of Melchizedek precedes the law and is greater than the law.
The law is contained within His priesthood - not the other way around.
And this is why I have stated over and over that it is wonderful to
find joy in expressing your worship on a F-S sabbath because it is contained
within the Spirit of the Law of Love.  But so is worshipping on Sunday
as one's sabbath contained with in the Spirit of the Law of Love.

Those are my thoughts on the matter.  Thanks for asking.

Mark

>It assumes that "the sabbath" means "THE sabbath" and this, I believe, 
>is not a valid assumption.

One other observation is that it is dangerous to make a doctrine out of
an article, such as the word "the" as it refers to the sabbath, or "for"
as it refers to baptism washing sins away (Acts 2:38).  

"The" could be a definite article but even when it is, it does not
tell us past, present, future, or infinitive aspects.

Again, please observe your sabbath on F-S as you have.  Be convinced
and please God by your observance.  Only be careful not to take the
conviction and move it into the realm of doctrine.

Mark

    Thanks Mark!
    
    >Be convinced
    >and please God by your observance.  Only be careful not to take the
    >conviction and move it into the realm of doctrine.
    
    You be careful as well, and be sure not to take your conviction and
    move it into the realm of doctrine.  Even if you don't like it, Romans
    14 justifies the keeping of the seventh day Sabbath or any other day by
    any Christian who believes he is keeping it unto the Lord.  Keeping the
    Sabbath can become legalistic as keeping Sunday can become legalistic.
    To give more weight to Sunday is to go against Scripture and, as you
    have been mentioning, when you go against Scripture you are not
    speaking the truth.  This means you too.
    
    I appreciate you taking the time to give me your opinions.
    
    Warmest Regards,
    Janet 

Yes, Janet, I am aware that my words are reflective (and I will be held
accountable to them).  Perhaps you think I've made arguments to lead 
people astray from the "truth of the F-S" sabbath.  Perhaps you think
I am preaching a compromise of Scripture.  If so, I intend to continue
to study the Word with an open mind to the possibilities and trust that you
will also.

Study to show thyself approved.
God is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.
Seek ye first the kingdom of God and His righteousness.

Words to live by.

Ciao,

Mark

    I echo .142... Mike you put into words my heart as well.
    
    

    
    I think it is in my Haley's Bible Handbook that Melchizedek 
    is suggested as being Shem, Noah's son.
    
    Given pre-flood lifespans, it was therefore possible for Shem 
    to have received knowledge of God directly from Adam.  Shem was 
    thus able to act as a bridge from Abraham to the very beginning 
    of God's creation.
    
    Otto
                       

    Otto, I don't think that is possible because of...
    
Hebrews 7:3
Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of
days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest
continually.

    Who else do you know that has no parents, no origin, or no end?
    
    Mike

    
    I've seen a number of flaws in Haley's, but it did make 
    for interesting contemplation nonetheless.
    
    What I hold important are the qualities ascribed to Malchizedek 
    which then explain the importance of his meeting with Abraham 
    and serve also to help us understand Christ's role as our high priest.
    
    I don't have much answer beyond this and also wonder if more is 
    necessary.  Kind of like discussing what day one of creation was 
    like.  If God meant for the Bible to be a treatise on physics He 
    would have changed the format a bit.  ;-)
    
    Otto

    Re: .152
    
    >Kind of like discussing what day one of creation was
    >like.  If God meant for the Bible to be a treatise on physics He
    >would have changed the format a bit.  ;-)
    
    Well put, Otto, well put!
    
    Warmest Regards,
    Janet

      Hi,
    
        I'm just wondering so I can understand better...
    
        Mike (Heiser),
    
          Does Romans 14 apply to the Sabbath?
    
        Mark,
    
          In your personal experience with the Lord to worship on 
          Sunday...do you do this because you believe it is God's 
          will for His people that one day in 7 is rested on (in that
          way you rest)?
                                                      
                                                  Thanks,
    
                                                  Tony

RE:     <<< Note 574.134 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

	Hi, Mark.

>>  You've caused me to think about this.  We know that the commandment was
>>given to Moses.  We know that it is >at least< a covenant sign between
>>Israel and God.  How has this covenant sign been transferred outside of
>>physical Israel.  What other covenant signs do we claim for Gentile
>>Christians?  Why or why not?
>>  For example, wasn't circumcision a commandment and covenant sign?  Yet,
>>we have Acts to show that it is not required of Gentiles.

	This is a fair question, and one that haunted me in my effort to
	avoid Sabbath observance. Please be patient with me as I develop
	the reasons for my answer before the answer itself. 

        The line between what is meant for the grafted-on gentiles and what
        is meant for the ancient nation of Israel must be drawn somewhere,
        and, though I believe that God is certainly not the author of
        confusion, it is possible that those lines may be along different
        boundaries for each of us, according to God's plan, purpose, and
	calling.

        Furthermore, I believe that there are "New Winds" emerging in the
        land, in that people are seeking and being called to obedience in
        ways not recently considered, along the ancient paths of wisdom in
        the Bible. Moreso than in recent evangelical history, many are 
        seeking to be the Holy Nation, the Royal Priesthood, the peculiar
        people. I believe this, because I have seen people turning to
        higher ground, seeking closer communion with God, seeking the
        ancient paths. I've seen churches breaking-up not because of people
        falling away, but because of people seeking higher standards,
        closer adherence to Scripture, and better answers than the canned
        responses taught in seminaries. 

        Tried as I might, I could not shake-off or rationalize-away what
        was developing as a clear conviction to observe the weekly and
        annual Sabbaths. When it came to the question of Circumcision vs.
        Sabbaths, I saw that the circumcision of the flesh was not a
        visible sign, neither was it given to women. It was a sign of the
        covenant between Abraham and God that the Messiah would be one of
        Abraham's descendants. 

	Circumcision of the heart, however, was always a requirement. It is
	the covenant between the "new creature" and God. The new creature
	seeks to obey and to do good works. We become His workmanship unto
	good works (Eph 2:10, James). Indeed, good works and obedience do
	not circumcise the heart, the circumcised heart seeks to obey and
	do good works. Let's not confuse cause with effect. 

        It is only in recent times that Christians have abandoned the
        Sabbath. Irrespective of the contention over the day-of-the-week,
        there was a time when Christians would not trade or engage in
        levity on Sunday. I believe that many Christians are returning to
        stricter observance of Sabbath, whether as principal or command-
        ment, becuase it is another witness, another testimony of their
        allegience to the Creator, Jehovah God, and their desire to be
	holy, even as God is holy.

	Regards,
		Tony
	

>        Mike (Heiser),
>    
>          Does Romans 14 apply to the Sabbath?
    
    I entered my views on the Sabbath a long time ago in another topic, 
    but I'll add a few comments in this topic.  The basic theme of this 
    chapter is about Christians judging other Christians, but the Sabbath is 
    included in this.  Verses 5 & 6 are the ones that deal directly with
    the Sabbath.  Let's take a look...
    
Romans 14:5a
One man esteemeth one day above another: 
    
    Bascially, men have esteemed 2 days for worship.  Sabbath day (the 7th
    day, from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday), and Sunday (the first
    day of the week).  We know the Sabbath doesn't fall on Sunday.  
    
    The Jews and some churches observe the Sabbath as the holy day of the
    week.  Unfortunately, some of these churches condemn those who don't
    observe the Sabbath.  At one time the SDA church taught that worshiping
    on Sunday was the same as taking the mark of the beast and anyone with
    the mark of the beast had no hope of salvation.  So, worshiping God on
    Sunday instead of on Saturday was condemning yourself to hell.  I'm so
    thankful that God is broader than the narrowness of man.  If our
    salvation was predicated on the concepts of man, none of us would make
    it.  Fortunately, some in the SDA church have since modified their
    position.
    
    The Book of Acts records that Christians gathered to break bread on the
    first day of the week, Sunday (Acts 20:7).  Paul told the Corinthians
    to bring their offerings together on the first day of the week (1
    Corinthians 16:2).  Some of the early Church historians wrote about
    gathering to worship on Sunday.  For example, Tertullian noted that
    many believers felt they should only break bread together on the first
    day of the week because Christ arose on that day.
    
    Many who religiously observe the Sabbath claim that Sunday worship is
    linked with the Babylonian corruption of the Church during the time of
    Constantine.  However, the practice of Sunday worship began long before
    Constantine.

Romans 14:5b
another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his 
    own mind.
    
    Some people regard Sunday as a holy day and so refrain from certain
    activities on that day.  Others regard every day as a day of worship,
    and to them Sunday isn't above another day.  Personally, I consider
    every day alike.  My wife wishes that I'd be more observant of special
    family days, but I esteem every day as the Lord's day, and I do the
    Lord's business.  I don't say, "Today is the Lord's day and the rest of
    the week is mine."  All my days belong to Him.
    
Romans 14:6a
He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; 
    
    If you regard the Sabbath day, you're regarding it unto the Lord.
    
Romans 14:6b
and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. 
    
    If you don't regard a particular day, then you're regarding every day
    as unto the Lord.

Note 574.154 YIELD::BARBIERI

>        Mark,
>
>          In your personal experience with the Lord to worship on
>          Sunday...do you do this because you believe it is God's
>          will for His people that one day in 7 is rested on (in that
>          way you rest)?

I do this because it was how I was raised.  I observe it because
I believe in the principle of a sabbath, an intermission, a time set
apart and devoted to God.

Note 574.155 WRKSYS::CAMUSO


>        It is only in recent times that Christians have abandoned the
>        Sabbath. Irrespective of the contention over the day-of-the-week,
>        there was a time when Christians would not trade or engage in
>        levity on Sunday. I believe that many Christians are returning to
>        stricter observance of Sabbath, whether as principal or command-
>        ment, becuase it is another witness, another testimony of their
>        allegience to the Creator, Jehovah God, and their desire to be
>        holy, even as God is holy.

I believe you are correct to say that people are returning to a stricter
observance of sabbath, as it should be!  And if someone wants to do so 
by observing Jewish F-S sabbath, all power to them!  My only objection
has been that it is sin to hold to the notion of observing sabbath on any 
day other than F-S .

Stricter observance of the day?  Fine!  Observance of F-S as the sabbath?
A choice.

Mark

By the way, regarding your words comparing circumcision and sabbath:

You are correct to see that circumcision of the heart is the most
important thing.  It is not the physical observance of this covenant
sign that was the important thing.  It is only a symbol.

In the very same vein, it is not the physical observance of the
covenant sign of the Jewish Sabbath that is the important thing.
It is only a symbol.  The sabbath of the heart is the most important
thing.  Therefore, whether I am physically circumcised or not, or
whether I keep sabbath on F-S or not, whatsoever we do or do not do, 
do it as unto the Lord.

Mark

More to my own reply in .135:

I had already provided an answer to Tony about the choice of the date used
by the Church for the annual observation of the Resurrection, pointing out
that his claim that it is chosen to coincide with a pagan feast is baseless
and asking him why he would prefer the date chosen by one group of people
(rabbis), rather than by another group of people (Christians meeting in
council under the guidance of the Holy Spirit).

I've done some more research.  I already knew a lot about the way the Church
calculates the date for the Feast of the Resurrection, including detail about
the formulas used by the Western Church (and I'm trying to locate similar
formulas for the Eastern Church).  I've posted these formulas before.  In
brief, the date for the Feast of the Resurrection is always:

	The First Sunday after the Full Moon, which happens upon or
	next after the Twenty-first Day of March; and if the Full Moon
	happen upon a Sunday, The Feast of the Resurrection is the Sunday
	after.

	However, the Full Moon is the fourteenth day of a Lunar Month,
	reckoned according to an ancient Ecclesiastical computation,
	and not the real or Astronomical Full Moon.  (But it's very close.)

Tony claims it would be better to use the date of the Feast of Firstfruits.
Well, guess what:  that is _exactly_ what this Ecclesiastical computation is
intending to calculate.  I also did some research into the Jewish calendar;
from what I have found, the first day of each month is the day of the New
Moon, and the month of Nisan is intended to be the month containing the
first Full Moon after the spring equinox.

However, just like the ecclesiastical computation used for the Feast of the
Resurrection, agreed upon by the Church in council, the Jewish calendar is
calculated according to an old rabbinical formula.  And both calculations are
imperfect.  The Christian calculation from Nicaea actually happens to be
more accurate, at least over time.

The Jewish calendar is slowly progressing forward, with the month of Nisan
coming later and later each year.  Unless the rabbis get together and decide
to change the calendar formula (or unless the parousia happens soon) in
another 8000 years, Nisan will be occuring a full month later, in April and
May.  As a particular example, in 9795, if the Christian Church is still in
its pilgrimage here on Earth and using the calculation from Nicaea, it will
observe the Resurrection on the 29th of March (a reasonable date for the
Feast of Firstfruits), but the current Jewish calendar would not have the
15th of Nisan occuring until the 28th of May.

So I'll continue to stick with the calculation inspired by the Holy Spirit
at the Council of Nicaea.  I'll still wish Tony a joyous Feast of Our Lord's
Resurrection, even if he's celebrating it on a different day, way out in May.

/john

    re: .158
    
    Hi Mark,
    
      The main problem I have with this is that this reasoning
      invalidates God's will regarding certain things.  For
      example, take baptism.  I can maintain, with your reasoning,
      that whether its by sprinkling or immersion or however method,
      it doesn't matter.  As long as I'm baptized in my heart, who
      cares about the outward act God asks for.
    
      Or take communion.  As long as I partake of His bread (word)
      in my heart and drink His blood (again as that experience applies
      in the heart) I am free to disregard God's ordained ritual to
      break physical bread and to drink wine (grape juice I believe.)
      Or to footwash.
    
      I'll hope to be be as obedient as God seems to say to me.  I will 
      require for myself baptism by immersion.  I require breaking physical
      bread as part of the communion ritual.
    
      I also require 'Sabbathing' from F-S because (among other reasons),
      God never made any other weekly day a Sabbath and man can't do so.
    
      As one person said, "You can be holy on any day of the week, but you
      can't make any day holy because man can't make holy.  Only God can
      make holy."  And as the F-S Sabbath is the only Sabbath God made,
      then its the only weekly one there is.
    
      I need scripture telling me that God made any other of the days 
      in 7 holy.
    
      And I know that scripture says the seventh day has been set aside
      and made holy.  Even before a Redeemer was needed!!!
    
                                                  God Bless,
    
                                                  Tony

    A little twist down another path..
    
    Is the sabbath day of rest really a day of worship and church going, or
    a day of rest?  I mean we tend to think church is the sabbath keeping,
    somehow I see a disconnect potentially?

    If you keep the Sabbath because it's holy, I can see keeping it any
    other way except for what's prescribed by the Torah - to the very jot 
    and title of the law.  Anything more or less is man-made and unholy.
    
    Mike

      Hi Mike,
    
        I think Jesus showed us how to keep the Sabbath.
    
        Why Jesus kept the Sabbath is something we disagree on
        perhaps.  BUT, we all know that He did not transgress
        the 4th commandment in His way of Sabbathkeeping.
    
        Now, I believe He kept the Torah, but I also believe
        that a PART of that Torah was/is enduring perpetual law.
        For example, to love God with all the heart was a part
        of Torah.  That law was never done away with.  It would
        be false to say that it was done away with at the cross
        and brought back at the cross.  Thats the same thing as
        saying it was/is a perpetual law.
    
        Regardless, Jesus is a fine pattern of what it means to
        Sabbathkeep.
    
                                                Tony

RE: <<< Note 574.156 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>


	Hi, Mike.

        Nowhere in all the book of Romans is Sabbath specifically
        mentioned. Many people take Rom 15:5 to apply to the Sabbath.
        Others take it to apply to fast days. Let every man be fully
        persuaded in his own mind. Sabbath observance concerns obedience
        and witness, not salvation. The same goes for other "lifestyle"
        issues like music, television, attire, attitude, language, etc. 
    
>>    Many who religiously observe the Sabbath claim that Sunday worship is
>>    linked with the Babylonian corruption of the Church during the time of
>>    Constantine.  However, the practice of Sunday worship began long before
>>    Constantine.

        Correct. According to the _Christmas_Hoiday_Book_, the Persian
        Mithras cult, established well before the birth of Christ, observed
        Sunday worship and celebrated the birth of its god on Dec 25,
        according to the Roman calendar. Many of the observances churches
        make today were made as compromises to pagan cultures, the
        celebration of a church hero or doctrinal event being superimposed
        on a local pagan festival. We can still see this happening today in
        much of the world. Haiti, South America, Phillipines, Italy, etc.
        With compromise often comes corruption. 

	The writings of Tertullian and Justin Martyr are not scripture.
	Where they agree with scripture, good; where they disagree, bad. 

        The Apostles were the *original* church fathers. They were all
        Jews, observed the weekly and annual sabbaths, and followed the
        Jewish calendar. THE church Father is Christ. He mandated and
        observed the weekly and annual sabbaths. Christianity, as it
        emerged in the early centuries following Christ, began to exhibit
        the peculiarly schizophrenic trait of anti-semitism that culminated
        in the inexcusable persecution of the Jews. The separation from the
        Jewish foundation of our faith while accomodating the observances
        of the heathen exacerbated this condition. 

	God bless and keep you,
		Tony
		

>        According to the _Christmas_Holiday_Book_, the Persian
>        Mithras cult, established well before the birth of Christ,
>        observed Sunday worship

Tony, THERE ARE ONLY SEVEN DAYS IN THE WEEK.  I'm sure we can find pagans
who worship on Saturday.  This business of tearing down Christian practices
and branding them as pagan is, as I have said before, a device of the evil
one prowling around looking for the ruin of souls.

Christian sunday worship was established in apostolic times:

Acts 20:7 "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came
	together to break bread, Paul preached unto them...

1 Cor 16:2 "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him
	in store, as God hath prospered him, ...

These verses clearly show that the earliest Christians held a weekly
commemoration of the Lord's resurrection with the Eucharist, meeting
Jesus in Word and Sacrament, on the first day of the week.

No, Sunday worship is not pagan; it is Christian from apostolic times.  God's
redemption of the world, in which he burst forth from the tomb and made it
possible for all mankind to _enter_into_his_rest_ has sanctified Sunday as
a new sabbath for the people of the new covenant.  In the fifteenth chapter
of Acts, the Council of Jerusalem is recorded as specifically _not_ calling
upon gentile Christians to observe the details of the Mosaic Law, but to
be bound by the principles of the Noachide covenant (Genesis 9) and by the
new covenant law of love.

/john

RE: <<< Note 574.160 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

	Hi, John.

        The Jews adjust their calendar periodically to obviate the scenario
        you describe. Jesus observed the feasts as calculated by the Jewish
        Calendar.  He fulfilled the prophecies of His death and
        resurrection as prophecied by the feasts of Passover and
        Firstfruits were calculated thereby. His every move was inspired by
        the Holy Spirit. I will trust His judgement.

	Peace,
		Tony
		

re .167

>        The Jews adjust their calendar periodically to obviate the scenario
>        you describe.

OK.  I have some inquiries out to find out about this.

>Jesus observed the feasts as calculated by the Jewish Calendar.

And then he established his Church with the power to bind and loose, which
certainly means to decide which feasts to observe and when to observe them.

>He fulfilled the prophecies of His death and resurrection as prophecied by
>the feasts of Passover and Firstfruits were calculated thereby.

And now his own Church calculates the date of the Feast of Firstfruits and
calls it the Feast of the Resurrection.  I am a Christian, not a Jew, and
I will trust his Church to calculate the date, since the bible tells me to
trust the Church in such matters and tells me that his Church will be guided
by the Holy Spirit.

/john

	Hi, John.
	
	Acts 20:7-8
            7. And upon the first [day] of the week, when the disciples
          came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready
          to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until
          midnight.
            8 And there were many lights in the upper chamber, where
          they were gathered together.

        The first day of the week starts at Saturday sundown. That's why
	there were many lights. Paul was a missionary. The church will
	gather to hear a special missionaries on any day. 

	1 Corinthians 16:1-3
           1. Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have
          given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.
           2  Upon the first [day] of the week let every one of you
          lay by him in store, as [God] hath prospered him, that there
          be no gatherings when I come.
           3  And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by [your]
          letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto
          Jerusalem.

        All the more indication that the 1st day of the week was just a
	workday. This was a special collection for the poor of Jerusalem
	being organized by Paul. The firstfruits of your labors are to be
	laid in store for collection. Collection does not necessarily
	occur at assembly. There are churches that have a collection box,
	instead of passing the plate.

	Please consider the following verses.

          Luke 23:56
          And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and
         rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.
     
         Acts 13:42 
           And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the
          Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them
          the next sabbath.

          Acts 13:44 
           And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city
          together to hear the word of God.

          Acts 13:14 
           But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch
          in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the sabbath day,
          and sat down.

          Acts 13:27 
           For they that dwell at Jerusalem, and their rulers,
          because they knew him not, nor yet the voices of the
          prophets which are read every sabbath day, they have
          fulfilled [them] in condemning [him].
          
          Acts 16:13 
           And on the sabbath we went out of the city by a river
          side, where prayer was wont to be made; and we sat down, and
          spake unto the women which resorted [thither].

          Acts 17:2 
           And Paul, as his manner was, went in unto them, and
          three sabbath days reasoned with them out of the scriptures,

          Acts 18:4 
           And he reasoned in the synagogue every sabbath, and
          persuaded the Jews and the Greeks.

	Peace,
		Tony

re .169

In every single one of those verses, Paul is using the Jewish synagogue
to reach almost entirely Jews and Greek converts to Judaism.

Your point about Saturday evening is, in fact, correct.  Christian worship
did actually start on the first day of the week at Saturday Sundown, and
continued into the night.

The move from Saturday night to Sunday morning was gradual.  The tradition
of all night celebrations of the Eucharist still exists in some places,
especially in Greek Orthodox observances in the Church of the Holy Sepulchre
in Jerusalem.

/john

Note 574.161   YIELD::BARBIERI
>                               -< Yeah, But... >-
>
>    re: .158
>
>    Hi Mark,
>
>      The main problem I have with this is that this reasoning
>      invalidates God's will regarding certain things.  For
>      example, take baptism.  I can maintain, with your reasoning,
>      that whether its by sprinkling or immersion or however method,
>      it doesn't matter.  As long as I'm baptized in my heart, who
>      cares about the outward act God asks for.

  What's the problem?  This is a valid parallel in that whether your
  act of obedience to beomce baptized is by sprinkling, immersion, or
  pouring, it is not the FORM of MODE of observance but the ATTITUDE
  of observance.  YES, out of the attitude spring action, but that
  action is not a prescription for Immersion only, just as the action
  is not a prescription for F-S only sabbaths.

>      I also require 'Sabbathing' from F-S because (among other reasons),
>      God never made any other weekly day a Sabbath and man can't do so.

  He sure did... for the Israelites through Moses.

Mark

      Hi John,
    
        Do you realize that you steered outside of scripture in
        your statement that the first day of the week was sanctified?
        Only God can sanctify and I'd be interested in seeing where
        the word says He did so.
    
        Please show me this John.
    
        Much of what you offered was your interpretation which suits
        your belief.  I'm not knoocking this; I am just pointing this
        out.
    
        I mean you weren't there when Paul went to the synagogues.  You
        can't know that his sole purpose was to reach Jews and not that
        it was part of his activities to worship at a synagogue on the
        Sabbath.  You also can't know whether or not it was some special
        collection that took place (referring to the 1st day collection
        scripture verse) or that this text has the strength to
        insist that suddenly all Jewish converts switched from the seventh
        day to the first.  Certainly, those first day texts are a nebulous
        way to draw such a conclusion.
    
        Why didn't Paul just say it?  I.e. "We all swapped the first day
        for the seventh."
    
        Finally, the Sabbath commemorates a finished work.  In the topic
        the two crosses, I shared my belief that the physical death and
        resurrection are not the death and resurrection that saves; they
        are schoolmasters.  The death and resurrection of the sacrifice
        was Christ bearing the weight of sin (death) and He overcoming 
        the temptation to despair while enduring that weight and believing
        He was accepted in the beloved by faith (resurrection).
    
        When Jesus said, "It is finished", His sacrificial work was 
        complete.  Thus the seventh-day Sabbath commemorating a finished
        work, commemorates the death and resurrection of Christ.  The
        4th commandment reveals the seventh day Sabbath to be a commemor-
        ation of redemption (see Deut. 5).
    
        The first day, according to the Bible, was never set aside for any
        work Christ ever did.  The 7th day according to the Bible was
        set aside for every work Christ did (creation + redemption).
    
        Just realize that you are extrascriptural in giving the 1st day
        the memorial you give it and that this is not a tenet of this
        Conference.  Let the Bible speak.  It should be enough.
    
                                                   God Bless,
    
                                                   Tony
    

With all this talk about Romans, we should also not forget the verse
in Colossians in this:

Colossians 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in
respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

MM

>        Why didn't Paul just say it?  I.e. "We all swapped the first day
>        for the seventh."

Because we all didn't swap.  Some of us hold one day instead of another.

>        Let the Bible speak.  It should be enough.

Yes, it should be enough.  Why don't you see the truth in what we say, then?
You see, Tony.  Had I offered this, I would be accused of being unloving and 
judgmental.  But apparently some people feel differently.

MM

>                            -< Follow The Pattern >-
>        Regardless, Jesus is a fine pattern of what it means to
>        Sabbathkeep.
    
    Tony(s), here's a concept for you:
    
    Jesus *IS* the Sabbath!
    
    regards,
    Mike

    re: .175
    
    Hear hear.  Thanks, Mike.

    I just have two things to add here which I hope will add some clarity.
    
    First, given that the lunar calendar which the Jews follow does lose 
    time from the actual tracking of the moon, they periodically add a 
    thirteenth month.  A kind of leap year in which thirteen months are 
    observed instead of twelve.  The month is added, I think, right after 
    Nisan.
    
    Second, the establishment of the feasts was indeed based on a lunar 
    calendar but not calculated in perpetuity as is done today by both the 
    Jews and the Church.  The feasts were not left to calculations but on 
    actual observance of the new moon over Jerusalem.  In other words, it 
    was not sufficient that, for example, the month Nisan is scheduled to 
    begin on Thursday.  If the new moon was not observed until Friday then 
    that was the day from which the feasts were calculated.  This was done 
    every month.  The sighting had to be confirmed by three witnesses.  
    At certain times, such as prior to the Passover or in the month of and 
    immediately preceding the Day of Atonement there were required six 
    witnesses.  The Mishnah sets very clear qualifications for who can be a 
    witness.  The precise establishment of the new moon was utterly 
    important to the Jew because to miss the precise day meant to miss God. 
    At the time of Christ the Pharisees would throw a banquet about the 
    time of the sighting to encourage witnesses to come forth.  However, 
    misrepresentation of the sighting was a severe breach.  It was so 
    important that after the sighting was confirmed by the priests signal 
    fires were set to inform the outlying cities.  Israel's enemies were 
    aware of this and would light their own fires in hopes of throwing off 
    the calendar of the Jews outside of Jerusalem.  You might also notice 
    that it was based on when the new moon was over Jerusalem.  No 
    consideration was given for international date lines.
    
    In short, strict observance of the current Jewish calendar in regard to 
    the feasts probably has about as much accuracy as the Church's 
    calculations.  Neither are spot on.
    
                                                   

RE:  <<< Note 574.173 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

>>Colossians 2:16  Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in
>>respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

        Now, Mark, we've addressed this verse before, and I thought we had
        simply agreed to disagree concerning our differing understandings
        thereof.

	This verse could just as easily mean that you should be careful
	about these things so as not to bring shame upon yourself. For
	corroboration, I submit the following.

Romans 14:22b  Happy is he that condemneth not himself in that thing which he
alloweth.

	Does this verse mean, "Happy is he that allows himself to do things
	without feeling guilty"?
        Or does it mean "Happy is he that doesn't do anything to bring
        shame on himself"? 
	 
2nd Peter 3:15  And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is
salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom
given unto him hath written unto you;
	  
2nd Peter 3:16  As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these
things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are
unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto
their own destruction.
	     
        I don't believe that Peter was expressing concern about people
        having too *conservative* an understanding of Paul's writings.
	
	God bless you, and good Sabbath "%^)

		Tony

RE: <<< Note 574.170 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

>>Your point about Saturday evening is, in fact, correct.  Christian worship
>>did actually start on the first day of the week at Saturday Sundown, and
>>continued into the night.

        Because of the other verses in Acts where assembly for worship by
        Paul and company was held on the Sabbath, I believe that in that
        passage, they actually had met on the afternoon of the Sabbath, had
        worship, praise, readings, broke bread for supper at sundown, and
        stayed late to hear Paul preach.

        One of the assemblies we attend meets Saturday afternoon. After the
        service, we fellowship and then have dinner together. By the time
        dinner's over, it's well after 6:00 PM. If there were a special
        speaker, we'd probably hang around a lot longer. 

	God bless you,
		Tony
		

    Re .178 I thought it might help to look at Col 2:16 in the context in
    which it is written.  --Bing
    
    Col 2:13-23
    And when you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of
    your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all
    our transgressions, having cancelled out the certificate of debt
    consisting of decrees against us and which was hostile to us; and He
    has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.  When He
    had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of
    them, having triumphed over them through Him.  Therefore let no one act
    as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or
    a new moon or a Sabbath day--things which are a mere shadow of what is
    to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.  Let no one keep
    defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the
    worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen,
    inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the
    head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by
    the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.  If
    you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world,
    why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to
    decrees, such as, "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" (which
    all refer to things destined to perish with the using)--in accordance
    with the commandments and teachings of men?  These are matters which
    have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and
    self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value
    against fleshly indulgence.

RE: <<< Note 574.180 by ODIXIE::HUNT >>>

	Amen. Consider ....

>>    If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world,
>>                                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>    why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to
>>    decrees, such as, "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" (which
>>    all refer to things destined to perish with the using)--in accordance
>>    with the commandments and teachings of men?  These are matters which
>>             ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>>    have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and
>>    self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value
>>    against fleshly indulgence.

	Are God's commandments the "elementary principles of the *world*"?
	The KJV uses "rudiments of the world". In Galatians, Paul refers to
	these as the "weak and beggarly elements." Are God's commandments
	"weak and beggarly elements"?
	
        He is talkin about the commandments and teachings of *MEN*,
        *NOT* the commandments of God. This applies to specious ritual
        and ceremony and *FALSE* religion, *NOT* the commandments of God.

        Please read 2nd Peter 3:15-16 again.

	Peace,
		Tony
		

    I posted the Colossians text to help in the interpretation of Col 2:16.
    Does anyone know who Paul's Target audience was (I KNOW it was the
    Colossians, but were they primarily Jews or Gentiles?).  It seems to me
    that the elementary principles of the world were the Jewish customs and
    rituals (of which Paul mentions several in vs 16).
    
    vs. 13-15 just got through saying that Christ had cancelled out our
    certificate of debt (He paid a debt He didn't owe, for a debt I could
    not pay).  He had made us ALIVE together with Him.  He then goes on to
    say that we are to therefore let no one act as our JUDGE in regard to
    keeping various ordinances for their are but a shadow and Christ is the
    substance.  I believe we spend entirely too much time debating issues
    such as this among ourselves, rather than focusing on Christ, who is
    the substance, and allowing Him to meet the hurts and needs of others 
    through us.  I've been next unseening much of this topic, as it has
    become repetitive and tiresome.
    
    While we are to keep Christ's commandments, we are no longer under law. 
    I believe that there is a difference between a commandment and a law. 
    If we fail to keep a law, there is a penalty that must be paid.  We are
    no longer under law, Christ has "cancelled out the certificate of
    debt...having nailed it to the cross."  Commandments do not have a
    penalty associated with them.  There are indeed consequences for sin, but 
    the penalty has been paid for.
    
    Re 2 Peter 3:15-16.  Does anyone out there have a good commentary on 
    2 Peter?  I have a Ryrie study bible at home, which didn't go in depth
    on these verses.  The Ryrie stated something to the effect that verse 15 
    was dealing with God being patient for folks to come to salvation (The
    Living Bible says, "And remember why he is waiting.  He is giving us
    time to get his message of salvation out to others.  Our wise and
    beloved brother Paul has talked about these same things in many of his
    letters.  vs 16  Some of his comments are not easy to understand, and
    there are people who are deliberately stupid, and always demand some
    unusual interpretation--they have twisted his letters from what he
    meant, just as they do the other parts of Scripture--and the result is
    disaster for them."  The only thing that Ryrie had to say about vs 16,
    was that it was equating Paul's teaching with the rest of scripture. 
    Does anyone have a commentary which gives background on vs 16?  Who are
    the people who are deliberately stupid?  I don't think they're folks
    who are talking about being dead to sin, but alive to God.
    
    
    Love in Him,
    
    
    Bing
    

    This is from memory so those of you who have all your reference texts
    handy please be merciful.  Also, this is not a difinitive statement on
    the background of the letter to Colossae.
    
    It is presumed that the letter of Colossians was delivered simultaneous
    with the letter to Philemon.  Both indicate being delivered by the hand
    of Onesimus and Philemon was a leader in the city of Colossae.  The
    letter was written during Paul's Roman imprisonment to a church he had
    helped establish but probably never seen.  The most likely scenario was
    that during Paul's missionary journeys while in Ephesus, that men from
    Colossae were also converted by Paul's words and returned to Colossae
    to establish a church.  In all of Paul's missionary stops he preached
    the gospel to the Jews first and then to the Gentile (usually after
    being rejected by the Jews).  The church at Colossae would have been
    made up primarily of completed Jews and Jewish proselytes but based on
    some of the names referenced there would have been many who were Roman
    citizens as well.
    
    Kent
    

    Good stuff, Kent.  We recently did a study on Philemon.  In analyzing
    that chapter, you sort of get the impression that Philemon was the head
    of that church since it met in his home.  
    
    What I find incredible in study the Bible is the *NUMEROUS* times that
    the events support the definition of the characters' names.  For
    example, Philemon means "Affectionate" and Onesimus means "Profitable
    One."  The runaway slave sure profited from the grace and affection
    that Philemon extended to him ;-)
    
    Mike

      Hi,
    
        Well, Mark, I hope to 'do' a little better than you suggested.
        Give me a chance!  ;-)
    
        I'm still waiting for anyone to show me where the Bible states
        that days 1 through 6 were sanctified and made holy.
    
        Remember, God Himself explicitly did thus to the 7th day at a 
        time when there wasn't even the need for a Redeemer.  And He
        gave the seventh day further reasons to rest during it (after sin).  
    
        Imagine!  God sanctifying that day just after man was created!
        Not a nit!
    
                                                  God Bless,
    
                                                  Tony

    Hi,
    
    I feel the need to add something to this note. 
    
    "Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of
    them.  And on the seventh day God ended His work which He had made;
    and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had made.
    And God BLESS the seventh day, and SANCTIFIED it: because that in it
    He had rested from all His work which God had created and made."
    Gen 2:1-3
    
    As Tony has asked, Is there a verse that changes this work of God?
    
    "And He said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man
    for the sabbath: Therefore The Son of man is Lord also of the Sabbath."
    Mark 2:27,28
    
    God made the sabbath for man just as He made the other six days of
    creation for man. And there has yet to be any verses produced to show
    otherwise.
    
    I hope this helps.
    
    Clay
    
    
    

>        I'm still waiting for anyone to show me where the Bible states
>        that days 1 through 6 were sanctified and made holy.

      Hi Mike,
    
        Sorry, but that's kind of nebulous for me!
    
        Can you cite chapter and verse or are you giving your 
        _interpretation_ as to what the cross means in terms 
        of the 7 days of the week?
    
        The explicit word of God and an interpretation of it 
        are two very different things.
    
        If you have explicit scripture, please supply it.  If you
        do not and are relying on interpretation of scripture, I
        wouldn't mind seeing the scripture and your interpretation.
    
                                               See Ya,
    
                                               Tony

    see 382.17-382.18
    
    thanks,
    Mike

      Hi Mike,
    
        I read 382.17 and 382.18 and while not agreeing with all of
        it, found them quite uplifting.  Thanks!
    
        I did not see how they said that all six other days have ever
        been sanctified and made holy by God, but I appreciated reading
        them nonetheless.
    
                                                  Tony

>        I read 382.17 and 382.18 and while not agreeing with all of
>        it, found them quite uplifting.  Thanks!
    
    Some of it might have sounded familiar since I used tape #4 in Pastor
    Mark's SDA series as one of the sources.
    
>        I did not see how they said that all six other days have ever
>        been sanctified and made holy by God, but I appreciated reading
>        them nonetheless.
    
    Let's look at it this way:  If you are abiding in Christ, which we know
    is where God sees as as righteous, which day is more holy than the
    other?  
    
    None of them!  The Sabbath was a foreshadowing of the rest provided by 
    Christ.  The day(s) aren't significant.  Our righteousness and rest in
    Jesus is all that matters.  Look at the building where you worship.  Is
    the building significant, or is what's inside significant?  Do we yearn
    all week to see the building?  Or do we yearn all week to fellowship
    with our brothers and sisters in Christ and worship with them?
    
    Feel free to celebrate the Sabbath still, as Paul says in Romans 14. 
    However, next time you celebrate it, look at it as a living picture that 
    has pointed to Christ for centuries and rejoice in the rest that He has 
    provided for us!
    
    God Bless,
    Mike

    Hi,
    
    I am new to this conference and am taking a class at Gordon college 
    this semester.  The question has come up in lectures, "Is the Sabbath
    rest applicable to Us today?"
    
    I have enjoyed looking through the conference and seeing references to 
    out jewish heritage and it applicability for today.  The Lord
    specifically request that we (or they) keep the sabbath holy (5th
    commandment - deut 5:12 ).  There are several reasons why we should
    also observe the sabbath, none of which have been negated with the
    coming of our redeemer.
    
    1. Resting from Labors
    2. Sign of the covenent
    3. Remembering God's mighty acts in Egypt and the redemption of God's
       people.
    4. Death penalty!!!!
    5. connected to creation
    
    To add fuel to the fire there is a passage in Hebrews 4 that talks
    about a rest that we should enter; That we as believers have entered it
    already.  God calls that day of rest, Today.
    
    Any thoughts as to the application of the 5th commandment for today?
    
    Tim
    

 Welcome, Tim!  Glad to have you with us.



 Considerable discussion on this topic is/has been taking place in topic
 574.


 Also, if you'd like, feel free to introduce yourself in topic 4




Jim

Hey!  Blessings, brother!

Good to see you here.

:-)  :-)  :-)

Have a good weekend, and I'll see you next week.

Paul

    Welcome!  Like Jim said, there are lots of topics on this already.  I
    would like to refer you to 382.17-382.18
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    Welcome Brother!  Glad to have you aboard.  Lots of info on the Sabbath
    in here and it is one of many subjects that are dear to my heart.
    
    
     >>I would like to refer you to 382.17-382.18
    
    Shameless plug, Mike, simply shameless.  ;-)
    
    
    Tim, I think you will find all of #382 fascinating, also #574, 
    which is probably the most current of the Sabbath discussions.
    
    In God's Love,
    Janet Brown

>    Shameless plug, Mike, simply shameless.  ;-)
    
    I know, but somebody had to do it! ;-)  
    
    Mike