Conference yukon::christian_v7

 I'm no expert here, and I don't doubt what happened to you Donna, but
I'd get rid of that book.





Jim

    What you did is exactly what Jesus did when Satan came to tempt him. 
    He used scripture and he prayed to his Father.  You're on the right
    track.
    
    Donna, my heart goes out to you.. you certainly have been dealt a heavy
    load to carry... I remember your past, your testimony and your
    mother-in-law's occult practices.
    
    Her influence over your husband is profound.  I cannot recall are you
    living in the same house with her?
    
    Love,
    Nancy
    

  Hi Donna,

  The answer is what might appear to be an over-simplification.
  However, your sensitivity to this "evil presence" is greater than 
  your trust in your Heavenly Father. Get to know Him better, read,
  read and re-read the Psalms, the Proverbs and the Gospel of John. 
  Talk to Him as a daughter to a father, He loves you and dosn't want 
  you to fear anything. This thing will eventually go away. I've been 
  there and its very un-nerving.

  Hank

         Donna,
         
         Like Jim I do not consider myself to be any authority on these 
         matters, but after speaking with others who have had any 
         connection with things associated with the occult, however 
         tenuously, one of the first things to do would be to seek pastoral 
         help, preferably from someone who has knowledge and experience in 
         these things.
         
         It sounds as though the connections you have had in the past may 
         need to be prayed into, possibly over a period of time, in order 
         to reclaim any ground which the enemy may consider, however 
         falsely, to be his. Do get help though. The book may be only one 
         tool the enemy may wish to choose, but having identified it as a 
         possibility, it would be prudent to consider its removal, perhaps 
         even its incineration!
         
         Paul

    	Did anyone read the book "The Satan Sellers" by Paul Warnke (I
    	believe the title and author are at least close to the real
    	names.  It was way back in 1980 that I read it.)
    
    	I don't know if the book and incidents therein (supposedly a true
    	story) have been subsequently debunked, and I don't remember many
    	details, but one thing stuck with me.  If, when faced with
    	demonic forces, you hold fast to your faith in Jesus to either
    	protect you or sweep you up into His arms and His kingdom, if you
    	pray His name and invoke His name for protection, you will not
    	be collected into the legion of Satan.

    Thank you for your replies.  
    
    o Nancy, Mark and I are not living with his mother any more.  Thank God.
    o The book is on Marks side of the bed, not mine
    o I'd like to burn the book myself, but it belongs to my husband, who
      at this time insists on keeping the darn thing.  He's talked himself
      into thinking that its ok to have as long as he doesn't read it.  And
      calls me judgemental if I try to say otherwise. 
    
    I got the idea from the notes (.7 and prev) that I did the right thing. 
    Geez.  I've felt evil presences before, but this was really sinister.  
    Almost like it wanted to get in me or something.  Very hateful
    presence.  
    
    I will read and re-read the psalms, proverbs, and John.
    Pray that Mark will get rid of the book.
    Try to get closer to God.
    
    
    Thanks

    One more thing.  What should I do with something like that in the
    house?  What if he won't get rid of it??  Stay close to God, and pray
    "continuously"?  
    
    
    Donna

re.9 Donna

>He's talked himself
>      into thinking that its ok to have as long as he doesn't read it. 

	Tell him its illogical to keep a book he doesn't feel good about reading
and that the uncomfortableness he senses about reading it is the same
uncomfortableness you have about keeping it. Let him know you are not judging
him, but you are judging the presence of that book. It's a small judgement on
your part but nevertheless we are charged to make such judgements (1 Cor 6:2-3). 

	I'd get rid of the book. His reaction to getting rid of the book will be
an indication of the influence it may already have upon him. 

Regards,
ace

    Donna,
    
    It certainly sounds like you have made some good decisions here.  
    
    1.	Pray.  Not just in times of crisis but continually.  Praying is not
    only crying out to God for help but it is also a time of drawing near
    to Him.  As we draw near to Him we become aware that greater is He that
    is in me.  Allow God to minister peace to your spirit.  Allow Him to
    build you up in faith through the presence of His Spirit.  Pray also
    for your husband, that he will assume his place as priest of the home
    and restore the proper covering to your household.
    
    2.	Study the Word.  Jesus said that the Holy Spirit would bring to our
    remembrance His words.  If it doesn't go in it can't come out.  Through
    the Word, Jesus withstood the temptations of Satan.  Through the Word
    we realize our place of authority in these matters.  Scripture says
    that we have the authority to tread on serpents and scorpions.  This
    doesn't refer to literal serpents and scorpions but that we have
    authority over demonic spirits.  Hide the Word in your heart.  Let God
    reveal Himself to you through it.  It is your sword.
    
    3.	Exercise your authority.  As a believer you have the right and the
    power to rebuke demonic spirits.  My experience has been that demons
    will use deception and terror to destroy the children of God but in
    actuality they are sniveling, wimpering cowards who have no authority
    over blood-bought children of the King.  Do not fear them but treat
    them as the defeated foe that they are.
    
    4.	You have authority as a believer but you are not the priest of the
    home.  Is your husband a Christian?  Is there someone who can talk to
    him, witness to him?
    
    In His Love,
    
    Kent
    

	Donna,
	
	I have had dreams where I have been under attack, and have
	used the name of Jesus to stop the attack.  Every dream I
	have had where this has occured, I have immediately woken up
	(sometimes I may rebuke the thing or pray before calling out
	the name of Jesus).  The terror of the dream would seem so
	real, I would need to get my bearings and realize it had been
	a dream.  Then I would praise God for rescuing me.  Whether or
	not these were tied to any real demonic presence or attempt
	to harm me (mentally, spiritually or otherwise), I do not know.

	I think you did exactly the right thing.

	Karen

    Just to confirm what others have said, Donna, you're on the right
    track.  I too sense a spiritual battle with your husband that is trying
    to sway him.  As expressed before, keep praying for him and his
    protection and let him know how much the book bothers you.  You may
    also want to share with him what happened to you.  Hopefully he'll have
    the sensitivity to see how it affects you.  
    
    The cat hissing is common.  A friend's wife, who was demon-possessed
    before she was saved, used to hiss like that once in a while at night. 
    It's real and it happens.  
    
    There have also been times where my wife and I will awake at night
    feeling some awful presences and we'll be moved to pray.  It happened
    last week.  We've been putting Mexican tile in our house, so since it
    resembles a construction zone, my wife and kids spent the night at her
    mom's.  About 1am I felt an awful oppression and started praying.  The
    phone rang and she was feeling it too.  We prayed together over the
    phone.  We found out later during a block watch meeting that there was
    some crime activity in the neighborhood that night.  Praise God for His
    protection!
    
    The next time this happens to you, wake up Mark and have him pray with
    you.
    
    Mike

>    	Septuagint.  Have to get the curse revoked by the application of
>    	the blood.
    
    ...and thank you Jesus for the blood that cleanses us of all our pasts!

    (re: .18 - don't ferget to put :-)'s in notes like that, lest folks
    think yer serious)
    
    
    re: .0
    
    You've got a lot going on there, and you've received some good advice
    here.  I've none to offer, but thought I'd let you know I'm praying for
    Him to give you *His* wisdom here, and shelter you in His peace that
    surpasses all human wisdom.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    
    Steve
    
    
    PS - Pumpkin's fine :-)

 Donna ,

 No weapon formed against you can prosper!

 You have a weapon. This may sound a little absurd, but when I had these
 problems you are having, I kept my Bible under my pillow. When I had 
 "visitations", I would hold it next to me. If it got real bad, I would turn
 the light on and read myself sleep in the Psalms.

  Hank

    One could only hope.  I'm prayin' for ya, brother!

    It does seem odd, but these kinds of experiences are not uncommon.  One
    thing that we have noticed is that for some reason, houses or rooms can
    carry spiritual baggage.  We moved into our house in 1992, and prayed
    in all the rooms, gave the house to the Lord, etc.  But for some time,
    our kids felt scary things, felt that something was wrong, nothing as
    concrete as you felt.  It could have been the move that upset them, but
    it could equally have been spiritual influences from the previous
    owner.  He was no saint.
    
    A few things.
    
    Audible prayer is important.  God knows our thoughts, but Satan cannot
    read them.  He needs to hear us rebuke him audibly.  Same for other
    spirits of this world.  And, somehow praying out loud seems more
    comforting to me than silent prayer.
    
    Memorize key verses.  Psalm 23 is good, but there's so much more that
    can give us confidence.  Try JOhn 16:33, Isaiah 41:10.
    
    Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.  Rebuke him, using Jesus'
    name.  You're allowed to, as a Christian, and there's nothing with more
    power than His name.  Just tell him (the spirit) to go, and never come
    back.
    
    Don't forget, Satan is defeated, and he knows it...
    
    

    >    		You should all migrate to Gardner...
    
    You ever go to Redemption Rock church?  I think that's what it's
    called.  I know some people that go there, some used to go there.

    .25 You are just toooo funny!  What are we going to do with you? (smile
    smile)
    
    Lots and lots to reply to here, but I don't know quite what to say. 
    Greg, you are right (.11) about some pastors.  I'm not putting anyone
    down, but I don't know if its the denomination or the particular
    pastors I talked to that did not have a clue that such things actually
    happen.  Years ago after getting out of the "mild" experience with the
    occult I talked to a preacher, and instead of addressing the issue at
    hand he asked me if I loved my husband.  He was trying to deal soley on
    relationships and not what was going on spiritually.  And then I've
    dealt with pastors who say that you have to go to their church or your
    not really mature in Christ, etc etc.  So, although no one out and out
    laughed at me like that, I kind of know what your talking about.  It
    can be kind of lonely when people you look up to in the church act like
    your crazy.  It does get me to solely depend upon God and not solely on 
    peoples opinions.  I like opinions.  They do help.  I've also had the 
    experience of relaying stuff that happened to people and losing that
    friendship, I guess cause they think your weird or something.
    
    Anyway, what else was addressed.  I know ya'll are joking about the cat
    hissing.  But the cat didn't hiss.  The blank air next to me did.  Its
    hard to describe, but it was like something were crouching near me and
    hissed.  
    
    Enough about that for now.  I re-read .12 that said to tell Mark (my
    husband) that its illogical to keep the book.  I'm not putting Mark
    down, ok?  But the fact is that he has a lot of emotional
    hangups---extreme worriedness, etc and is not what I would call
    rational about things.  A lot of the time he just wants you to agree
    with him on stuff, not really tell him what you think about something.
    I've been dealing with this for so long.  I thought that a few years
    ago Marks mother (jo ann) said that her mother was a witch.  I know she
    dealt with psychic stuff.  Jo Ann really didn't, but got in heavy with
    astrology, and the last few years has gotten  involved in channelling
    and who knows what else.  I don't know the history any further back
    than that, but its possible that there could be a bad influence on Mark
    thats just been handed down the generation "pipe".  Sexual perversion
    is one area that he won't give up, and his mother incourages.  By this
    I'm just talking about porn.  Marks logic is that he doesn't drink or
    abuse me physically, so this one vice isn't bad.
    
    I will continue to pray about getting rid of that book, and will see if
    there is an oportunity to approach this with Mark again.  At lunch I
    was thinking of Paul or someone in the scriptures that was inprisoned
    on Patmos and the work they made him do actually helped build idolatry
    things.  So if he can keep close to God during that sort of pressure,
    so can I.
    
    Pray: continuously and audibly when dealing with spirits (rebuking)
    Read/Study:  Read the bible, especially the Psalms, Proverbs, and John
    Memorize Scripture:  If I don't know it, how can I call upon it
    
    .14  Yes, I've had dreams too every now and then that upset me greatly. 
    For those I will go into the living room and read the bible and pray
    until I am calmed.
    
    I'll write more in a little while.
    
    
    Donna
    

Donna,

I've had demonic-related experiences also - they're yucky, I know.  You did
the right thing praying from scripture.

re the book - I'm not 100% on this, but it might be the best thing if that
book "disappears" one day when your husband isn't home.  You may need to
confess your burning it, but that's better than letting it hang around,
in my opinion.  If there were some big holes in your kitchen floor, and
he wanted to leave them there, but people kept falling into the basement,
would you nail some boards over the holes?

When I've discussed things like this with my pastor, others, etc., one thing
that was helpful was to agree to pray together at a certain time.  I was
thinking, where do you live?  If there's some time zone differential, it may
be easy to get some folks to agree to pray for you at around your bedtime,
which would still be 'awake' time for others.

-Steve

>    .25 You are just toooo funny!  What are we going to do with you? (smile
>    smile)

    Yes, I must confess I've thought about that book disappearing some day. 
    Problem is that right now he's very aware that its there, etc etc.  So
    its kind of hard to do.  I'm in Dallas, Texas--central standard time. 
    I'm going to contact the priest at the episc. church I've been visiting
    and see what he has to say about the books presence.  He seems like a
    very wise and Godly man.  I'll let you know what he says.  He stepped
    out and I'll call him tomorrow.  I can't very well have him call me at
    home.
    
    I went out during lunch to go to the doctor regarding my foot, and had
    a little time to spare, and a little extra cash.  So I wet to Joshua's
    bookstore and prayed that if there was anything God would prefer that I
    read that he lead me to the books in question.  Let them catch my eye
    or something.  Ask and ye shall receive!  My goodness.  Tons of books
    on sale for $1.99 and other hardbacks on sale for $5.99.  I looked
    carefully and my arms were full by the time I left.  Now the challenge
    is to read them.  I'm starting a journal of memory verses, summary's of
    what I've read in the bible, prayers requests, praises, etc.  Prob.
    will put summary's/highlights of the books as I go along.
    
    What to do, what to do.  Turn to God.  
    
    Oh, I did share what happened last night with Mark.  He hasn't made the
    connection that it could be because of the book, but I'll probably
    approach that subject later tonight.
    
    .16 talked about singing outloud, etc.  Sounds like fun, and a good
    approach.
    
    .20 about the bible under my pillow.  Hmmm.  Interesting.  I really
    think that rebuking outloud is good too.  
    
    Well, I'm tired and am going home in a few minutes.  Thanks for
    everyone's imput.  Your sharing is very appreciated.
    
    
    Donna

    Donna
    
    There's been some excellent answers already and I don't claim to have
    any different theology to the rest. I would encourage you though that
    you're not alone. I have experienced this type of thing several times
    in the past and one of my friends has experienced a person in her room
    looking over her bed. 
    
    When I have experienced  this type of thing I have taken the following
    actions:
    
    1) If there is another christian in the house I wake them up and get
       them to pray with me
    
    2) If I am alone I put on a christian tape that declares Jesus' victory
       VERY LOUDLY (Keith greens 'The Victor' is the usual - it never fails)
    
    3) I pray and plead the blood of Jesus and proclaim His victory in my
       life and in my house.
    
    Remember that nothing can seperate us from the love of God, so even if
    you don't feel His presence close He is very close and none can snatch
    you from His hands.
    
    Forgive me if I sound rude, but is your husband a christian ?? If he is
    then you should point out to him that good can have nothing to do with
    evil and that to have such a book in the house is a grievance to God.
    
    I hope this helps a bit
    
    Ben
    

| <<< Note 544.20 by DNEAST::DALELIO_HENR >>>



| You have a weapon. This may sound a little absurd, but when I had these
| problems you are having, I kept my Bible under my pillow. When I had
| "visitations", I would hold it next to me. If it got real bad, I would turn
| the light on and read myself sleep in the Psalms.

	Hank, if one does this, aren't they really using the book as a security
blanket? Shouldn't we be using God Himself, and not items?

Glen

	Glen,

	The Word of God is a mighty sword.  It is not a "security blanket",
	but a weapon, as Hank said.

	Karen

 Glen read Ephesians 6:11-17 (verse 17 talks about the sword of the spirit
 being the Word of God) Its a good passage about spiritual warfare.  Also,
 read the Gospel of Luke where Jesus is in the desert and is tempted by
 Satan..what did He do?  Quoted Scripture!



 Jim

 Re: Glen  > The Word of God as a "security blanket" vs God Himself.

 There is some truth in what you say Glen, but I'm in good company :

 Psalm 119:105   Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.
           133   Direct my steps by Your Word and let no iniquity have 
                 dominion over me.
           140   Your Word is very pure, therefore your servant loves it.
           160   The entirety of Your Word is Truth and every one of your
                 righteous judgments endures forever.
 
 Just a few of many.

 Hank         

    Thanks.  I have WONDERFUL news!  Last night as I picked Mark up from
    work, we started talking about stuff, and I don't remember how it came
    up but I prayed to God to say the right thing to Mark about that book. 
    I basically told him that I wasn't judging him, but I wanted to let him
    know that I did not like having that book in the house.  He said
    something, and I said "I'd like to know what the hell that was beside
    my bed last night"  Mark does and says a lot of things, but I do
    believe that he respects what I have to say.  After that thing had 
    hissed at me the night before last, I had gotten up and gone in the 
    bathroom to pray even more.  Mark told me that before I had come out of 
    the bathroom and relayed what had happened, he had felt an evil presence.
    And after I layed down again he felt "that everything was ok".  
    
    HE AGREED THAT WE SHOULD GET RID OF THE BOOK RIGHT AWAY!!  Needless to
    say I'm so happy.  I didn't see how it would work out, but God made
    it work.  I threw the book in the dumpster after ripping the majority of
    it to screds. 
    
    I had bought a book yesturday called God's Promises.   What I didn't
    read  right after that was "for the Graduate".  I'm glad I didn't see
    that because I might not have bought it.  I'm very glad I did.  I
    called upon several verses last night.  Ps. 32:7, prov 29:25, Ps. 46:1,
    Isaiah 59:1, Ps 27:1, Isaiah 54:17, Prov. 3:25-26 and others.  
    
    Psalm 32:7 was one that I repeated in the still hours of the night.
    
    YEAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!  I'M SO HAPPY!!
    
    Someone asked if Mark is a christian.  Kind of.  He believes in God and
    Jesus.  He doesn't want to read the bible, and on his birthday a few
    days ago he had me buy "Jesus of Nazareth" the movie.  He loves it.  He
    also doesn't like to go to church.  I think thats because growing up he
    went to what I would call a "dead" church.   He believes all of this,
    but is not "on fire" for God.  Its hard to explain.  I believe from
    talking to him that he's improving his relationship with God, but he
    seems to be a baby christian and likes it that way.  This is getting into 
    a grey area.  Every time I talk about Mark I feel that I'm judging him.
    
    Thanks everyone for you help during this occurance.  You've helped me
    to grow.
    
    God bless,
    
    Donna

    Praise God!
    
    Donna, That is so GREAT! 
    
    Pam

 AMEN!

         Donna,
         
         Praising God with you from the UK too	:-)
         
                                    A M E N ! !
         
         
         Paul

| <<< Note 544.35 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>



| read the Gospel of Luke where Jesus is in the desert and is tempted by
| Satan..what did He do?  Quoted Scripture!

	Jim, do you think it was the actual words that prevented Him from ever
being tricked by Satan, or His faith in God?



Glen

| Psalm 119:105   Your word is a lamp to my feet and a light to my path.
| 133   Direct my steps by Your Word and let no iniquity have
| dominion over me.
| 140   Your Word is very pure, therefore your servant loves it.
| 160   The entirety of Your Word is Truth and every one of your
| righteous judgments endures forever.

	Thanks for the pointers Hank. But what will push Satan away, the words
you have read or your faith behind them?



Glen

RE:               <<< Note 544.42 by BIGQ::SILVA "Memories....." >>>

>| <<< Note 544.35 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>



>| read the Gospel of Luke where Jesus is in the desert and is tempted by
>| Satan..what did He do?  Quoted Scripture!

>	Jim, do you think it was the actual words that prevented Him from ever
>being tricked by Satan, or His faith in God?



Well, according to Luke 4 Satan tempted Jesus 3 times and 2 times Jesus 
replied "it is written" and once "it is said"..

Matthew 4 states "it is written" twice and "it is written again" once..and
in each case (Luke and Matthew) Satan withdrew.

Certainly faith is important (particularly when we are talking about Jesus).
Certainly Satan *new* that Jesus had faith, wouldn't you agree?  Were His
faith enough Satan would not have approached Him..it was the Word of God
that caused Satan to depart..see why the Word is referred to as the
Sword of the Spirit?



Jim

    Oh Donna!
    
    I'm overjoyed, a little wet around the eyes!  God is faithful and just
    and will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that ye are able to bear
    and he will make a way to escape!  
    
    Hugs Sis, [Big ones],
    Nancy

    .44
    
    Amen! Jim, I don't think I ever looked at it quite like that before.
    
    Learning,
    Nancy

    >Jim, do you think it was the actual words that prevented Him from ever
    >being tricked by Satan, or His faith in God?
    
    Glen,
    
    Jesus KNEW His Father.  He KNEW the Truth that the Father had given
    through the written word.  It's by knowing the Truth that we can judge
    what is error.  I have heard that when teaching bank tellers to look
    for counterfit currency, that they teach them by examining the real
    thing.  When they see a bill that does not have the traits of TRUE
    currency, they know its a fake.  Unless we know the Truth, we won't
    know when error creeps in.  Unless we know the Truth of Gods Word we
    won't know when its God talking to us, or when its a different voice. 
    Scripture tells us what God is like.  It is a plumbline to know if we
    are on the mark in our thinking/understanding, or off base.
    
    As we get to KNOW God, and we get to know Him through His word and
    through talking/listening to Him, our faith is strengthened.  Jesus said 
    that He did nothing on His own (as He was fully human, when He walked the
    earth), but only that which the Father did through Him.  If He didn't
    know God, He wouldn't have had the faith, or the knowledge of truth to
    discern and defeat the lies of Satan.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

	re. .45

	I know, I know, pick me!!

	That's Jack Shields' daughter... is that somehow important ??

	Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God.

    The fact that she's God's daughter is what's really important!
    
    Bing

| <<< Note 544.44 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>


| Well, according to Luke 4 Satan tempted Jesus 3 times and 2 times Jesus
| replied "it is written" and once "it is said"..
| Matthew 4 states "it is written" twice and "it is written again" once..and
| in each case (Luke and Matthew) Satan withdrew.

| Certainly faith is important (particularly when we are talking about Jesus).
| Certainly Satan *new* that Jesus had faith, wouldn't you agree?  Were His
| faith enough Satan would not have approached Him..it was the Word of God
| that caused Satan to depart..see why the Word is referred to as the
| Sword of the Spirit?


	I can understand why you would think the way you do, but I guess I
don't agree with it. If Jesus said the same things, but did not have such a
strong faith in God, I believe things could have been happened differently. But
because His faith was so strong, He KNEW He would win in the end and NOT be
fooled. If a demon was going after a non-believer and they quoted the same
things, without faith, don't they just become mere words?



Glen

    To me, the idea that having a certain book in your house has resulted 
    in a demon coming in to haunt you, is absurd! First off, if you have 
    a book that Satan approves of, he's already won and haunting you into 
    getting rid of it would be foolish. Perhaps, the book had truth in it
    and he didn't want you to have it in your house ? If you got rid of it, 
    he's won again. 

    If you have faith in Jesus Christ, Satan will not have power over
    you and neither will the falsehoods written in a book. 

    Jim

 RE .54 Glen



 Well, if you were to read Ephesians 6:10-17 you'd see how faith, the Word,
 salvation, truth, righteousness and prayer all work together to combat
 Satan and his fiery darts...but, I don't expect you'd believe that either.



 Jim

	Jim R.

	Have you heard of not letting Satan get a stronghold in your life ?

	Have you heard of cases where family members dabbled in the occult
	and opened the door to Satan ?

	Perhaps the demonic presence was hoping Donna was weakened by
	her husband's purchase of the book, and felt a stronghold could
	be gained.

	Karen

    Karen,
    
    I agree.  A friend of my mothers had taken a class in tarot card
    reading.  After she brought the cards home, her family was
    plagued by divorce, illness and even death.  She was told
    by friends to get rid of the cards and anything to do with
    them.  When she did, everything went back to normal.
    
    Satan was given access to her home and took full advantage of
    it.
    
    Pam

 There are times when I suspect that much of what we were dealing
 with when my oldest son was 15-16 years old was demon related.  I
 haven't the time to relate all that took place, but I suspect
 that was the case (and may still be for all I know).




Jim

    Php  4:8 Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever
    things [are] honest, whatever things [are] just, whatever things
    [are] pure, whatever things [are] lovely, whatever things [are]
    of good report; if [there is] any virtue, and if [there is] any
    praise, think on these things.
    
    Bing

    Satan will use temptations to get a stronghold on you and not
    necessarily fear. Fear would more likely, draw you towards God, not Satan.
    More people will turn to God in prayer after watching the movie the 
    Exorcist than they would after seeing an X rated movie. Which movie
    do you suppose Satan prefers to use? (not that he wouldn't use the
    Exorcist if he thought it would work)

    Satan will use  the things that appeal to your ego(spiritual pride
    is included here), or flesh to get a stronghold on you. 

    The temptations that he brought Jesus in the desert were of the
    strongest type of all temptations. They are the highest of all
    temptations. If we look at those temptations, we will see the
    relation our own  temptations have to them.

     Jim

| <<< Note 544.56 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>


| Well, if you were to read Ephesians 6:10-17 you'd see how faith, the Word,
| salvation, truth, righteousness and prayer all work together to combat
| Satan and his fiery darts...but, I don't expect you'd believe that either.


	Jim, I do believe what you wrote above. But what I am saying is without
faith, all the rest ain't gonna do any good.


Glen

    	All this talk about faith.
    
    	If one doesn't have faith they won't be memorizing scriptures
    	to quote anyway...

RE:               <<< Note 544.63 by BIGQ::SILVA "Memories....." >>>



>| Well, if you were to read Ephesians 6:10-17 you'd see how faith, the Word,
>| salvation, truth, righteousness and prayer all work together to combat
>| Satan and his fiery darts...but, I don't expect you'd believe that either.


>	Jim, I do believe what you wrote above. But what I am saying is without
>faith, all the rest ain't gonna do any good.


 Yep...The passage above says to use the "shield of faith, wherewith you are 
 able to quenc the fiery darts of the wicked"(v16)  our faith prevents the fiery
 darts (attacks from the wicked) from hitting us (shield) and renders them
 harmless.  The Sword of the Spirit (v17), being the Word of God, is the 
 offensive weapon by which the attacker is rendered harmless (or at least
 frightened off (Luke 4 where Satan withdrew)


 So, based on your statement above, you seem to be agreeing that the Word of
 God is indeed important (along with faith), correct?  Without faith the
 Word of God won't do you any good?




 Jim

| <<< Note 544.65 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>



| If faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God,

	There is a key word in there Greg.

| and someone is speaking the Word, - then the hearing of the Word must follow, 

	Ever see people get turned off by those who try to cram religion into
their faces? Ever see people open up when religion is discussed? Speaking the
word does not mean the other will listen, or even believe what you are saying.

| - therefore, faith must come as well.  

	If someone has heard of God, but never had a Bible, and (s)he put their
faith in Him to guide, protect, use them, do they have faith? Faith can come
from a lot of different things.

| It is God's Word, and God cannot lie.  

	I agree 100% that God can not lie.

| Therefore, the problem that you are concerned about is easily averted by the 
| simple act of speaking of the Word.

	Is it now..... I think you're confining faith to a too narrow a vision.
Faith to me is MUCH more than the vision you have spoken of. 


Glen

| <<< Note 544.67 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>



| So, based on your statement above, you seem to be agreeing that the Word of
| God is indeed important (along with faith), correct?  Without faith the
| Word of God won't do you any good?


	This is where we hit an area that I have to dance. :-)  Suffice to say
that I think many things can add/help one's faith grow. If you want more info,
send mail.


Glen

RE:               <<< Note 544.70 by BIGQ::SILVA "Memories....." >>>



| So, based on your statement above, you seem to be agreeing that the Word of
| God is indeed important (along with faith), correct?  Without faith the
| Word of God won't do you any good?


>	This is where we hit an area that I have to dance. :-)  Suffice to say

  Why is that?  Why do you have to dance?   




  Jim

    RE:72

    Greg,
         hearing the word of God, means hearing God speak through whatever
    means God uses. A person can read the Bible from cover to cover, but
    not hear God. Faith will not necessarily  increase the more we read 
    the Bible either. If we don't live a life of prayer and love, 
    Scripture will become dry and meaningless to us.

    To follow Christ we must take up our cross and follow Him by living
    the Gospel. By doing so, we will see God more and more in our daily lives.
    As a result, our faith will grow and be strengthened.
     

    Jim

    Just to quickly add my 2 cents for what its worth. 
    The 7 sons of sceva were"trashed" when they said "in the name of
    Jesus...", however when a believer says these words things happen.
    
    Its a combination of both. The words must be spoken with authority and
    faith in order to be effective.
    
    A person with childlike faith can use the Word and move mountains.
    A person who speaks the same words with fear or unexpectancy will not
    obtain the same results.(IMHO)
    
                                 In His service:
                                    Sylvain

  Re .38 

  Hi Donna,

  Thats really great. Dont let your guard down by neglecting the Word
  of Our God. Your strength will grow until it will soon be your turn to
  terrify Satan.

  Hank

 Re .45 Glen  The Word and Faith

 Hi Glen,

 As others have already shown, faith comes via the Word of God, it is
 a concurrent process (knowledge of the Word and Faith strength).
 
 Many accuse us (inerrant Bible believers) of bibliolatry (I dont mean you
 Glen), well, I accept the consequences of that "sin" because my Savior said

 "Man doth not live by bread alone, but by every word which procedeth out
  of the mouth of God".

 Hank

| <<< Note 544.71 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>


| | So, based on your statement above, you seem to be agreeing that the Word of
| | God is indeed important (along with faith), correct?  Without faith the
| | Word of God won't do you any good?


| >	This is where we hit an area that I have to dance. :-)  Suffice to say

| Why is that?  Why do you have to dance?

	Read note 2......

| <<< Note 544.72 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>


| Romans 10:17 says that 'faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God
| Its that simple.  People who want more faith should hear the Word more.  That 
| is how it is done. Its a simple procedure.  It is no mystery.  

	While I do believe that some people can get closer to God from reading
the Bible, I do not think that reading or hearing what is in the Bible will
bring everyone closer and build faith. Why do you limit God's tools so much?

| God spelled it out very clearly.  

	It does state that in the Bible....

| Why does this seem to offend you so much?

	Offend? No, I'm not offended in the least. What made you think I was?


Glen

| <<< Note 544.73 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>

| Well, its slightly different in BIblical terms, ( and this is a Biblical 
| notesfile ), faith has a slightly different twist to it.  

	It's the twist that I worry about.

| You mention other ways... but Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the 
| life.  No man comes to the Father without me."  

	I agree with what you wrote above 100%! And that is what *I* follow.


Glen

| <<< Note 544.74 by PCCAD::RICHARDJ "Living With A Honky Tonk Attitude" >>>



	Jim Richard, that was one of the best notes I have seen in a while!



Glen

| <<< Note 544.77 by DNEAST::DALELIO_HENR >>>



| As others have already shown, faith comes via the Word of God, it is a 
| concurrent process (knowledge of the Word and Faith strength).

	I believe faith can be strengthed from the Bible. 

| Many accuse us (inerrant Bible believers) of bibliolatry (I dont mean you
| Glen), well, I accept the consequences of that "sin" because my Savior said

	Hank, what does biblioatry mean?



Glen

>>	While I do believe that some people can get closer to God from reading
>> the Bible, I do not think that reading or hearing what is in the Bible will
>> bring everyone closer and build faith. Why do you limit God's tools so much?

	Glen, your statement above is a direct contradiction of Scripture
	(God's Word).  No one is limiting God's tools, we're making full
	use of what God has given us.  Why won't *you* use His tools?
	(never mind, that's a rhetorical question).

	Believe what you want to believe, but know that God has clearly
	said differently.

	Karen

| <<< Note 544.83 by CNTROL::JENNISON "Troubleshootin' Mama" >>>



| Glen, your statement above is a direct contradiction of Scripture. No one is 
| limiting God's tools, we're making full use of what God has given us.  

	I beg to differ. I agree the Bible is one of His tools, but it is not
His only one.

| Why won't *you* use His tools?

	I use His tools every single day of my life.

|Believe what you want to believe, but know that God has clearly said differentl

	That was in the Bible, right?


Glen

| Glen, your statement above is a direct contradiction of Scripture. No one is 
| limiting God's tools, we're making full use of what God has given us.  

>	I beg to differ. I agree the Bible is one of His tools, but it is not
>His only one.
    
    While the Bible is not God's only tool, He will never contradict His
    Word.  As Dudley Hall phrased it in the note I posted yesterday (Note
    545.0), "The Scriptures are God's eternal, objective standard of
    revelation".  It is the standard by which all subjective communication
    should be measured.
    
    Love in Christ,
    
    Bing

 Re 544.82  Glen

 Hi Glen,

 Bibliolotry is a concatonation of two words: Bible and idolotry.

 It means the worship of the Bible.

 We put the Word of God in same place Jesus put it, which is illustrated by
 the scripture :

 Man shall not live by bread alone but by every word which procedeth out of
 the mouth of God.

 Hank

    > -< But what does rathole mean? >-
    
    Sorta like beating a dead horse 8^).
    
    It's when participants in a discussion keep bringing up the same
    arguments over, and over, and over again and in the end they are no
    closer to agreement than when they started.
    
    Or, was that a rhetorical question? 8^)
    
    
    Bing

    Are you making fun of me?
    
    
    

>>	While I do believe that some people can get closer to God from reading
>> the Bible, I do not think that reading or hearing what is in the Bible will
>> bring everyone closer and build faith. Why do you limit God's tools so much?

Luke 16:29  Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them
hear them.
 30  And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the
dead, they will repent.
 31  And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither
will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Mark 4:23  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

Mark 7:16  If any man have ears to hear, let him hear.

    BTW, Donna you can sing... too! :-)
    
    

    My friend with the money problems has had many of the same
    types of experiences.  She was told every night before she
    went to bed that if she did not go right to sleep that 
    Satan would come and scratch her eyes out.  (Her grandmother
    was attacked in her sleep and had her face scratched up
    and did not see/feel anyone there) I don't know how much of
    her feelings of being surrounded by evil are her imagination
    and how much is real but she grew up acutely aware of spiritual
    things and the evil that abounds in the world.  
    
    She is the first person I met that had experiences such as these
    but I  believe many/most/all of her experiences are real.  Makes
    for a pretty scary childhood.
    
    Pam

    Nancy - great idea - that's what I do.
    
    Most of the verses I know I have memorized from the songs
    they are used in.
    
    Pam

    .92  Just checking, just checking.  Didn't know if I should be offended
    or not. (smile)
    
    
    Toodles,
    
    Donna

>	While I do believe that some people can get closer to God from reading
>the Bible, I do not think that reading or hearing what is in the Bible will
>bring everyone closer and build faith. Why do you limit God's tools so much?
    
    2 Timothy 3:16-17  "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is 
    profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
    righteousness:  That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished 
    unto all good works.
    
    The Bible doesn't limit God, it enables Him.  He moves through His
    Word.

>	I beg to differ. I agree the Bible is one of His tools, but it is not
>His only one.
    
    Glen, what are God's other tools?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

 can't help it folks

| <<< Note 544.85 by ODIXIE::HUNT >>>


| -< It is the Objective Standard >-

	But once humans start to interpret it, doesn't it then take on a human
side to it? I say this because of in this file alone you have many
interpretations of the same part of Scripture. (by taking on a human side I
don't mean the book itself changed, but humans changed the meaning of the book)

| While the Bible is not God's only tool, He will never contradict His Word.  

	I agree with the above statement 100%.


Glen

| <<< Note 544.86 by DNEAST::DALELIO_HENR >>>



| Bibliolotry is a concatonation of two words: Bible and idolotry.
| It means the worship of the Bible.

	That's what I thought, but I did not want to comment on it before I
knew for sure. I HAVE said on many occassions that there are some in this file
and in this world, that appear to put the Bible ahead of Him. 



Glen

RE:               <<< Note 544.101 by BIGQ::SILVA "Memories....." >>>


>	But once humans start to interpret it, doesn't it then take on a human
>side to it? I say this because of in this file alone you have many
>interpretations of the same part of Scripture. (by taking on a human side I
>don't mean the book itself changed, but humans changed the meaning of the book)


And some examples are....



Jim

| <<< Note 544.88 by ODIXIE::HUNT >>>



| > -< But what does rathole mean? >-

| Sorta like beating a dead horse 8^).
| It's when participants in a discussion keep bringing up the same
| arguments over, and over, and over again and in the end they are no
| closer to agreement than when they started.

	Bing, actually a rathole is while one thing is being discussed, someone
goes off on another topic within the topic. Make sense to you? :-)


Glen

| <<< Note 544.99 by FRETZ::HEISER "Maranatha!" >>>


| >	I beg to differ. I agree the Bible is one of His tools, but it is not
| >His only one.

| Glen, what are God's other tools?

	Mike, any and everything.


Glen

    > Bing, actually a rathole is while one thing is being discussed, someone
    > goes off on another topic within the topic. Make sense to you? :-)
    
    Sounds like a rathole to me 8^)!
    
    I would think it could be either.
    
    Bing
    

| <<< Note 544.103 by CSLALL::HENDERSON "Friend will you be ready?" >>>



| And some examples are....

	Jim, go read the topics in here. You've participated in a lot of them. 

    Glen, how about something more specific?

    >But once humans start to interpret it, doesn't it then take on a human
    >side to it? I say this because of in this file alone you have many
    >interpretations of the same part of Scripture. (by taking on a human side I
    >don't mean the book itself changed, but humans changed the meaning of
    >the book)
    
Glen,

I choose to dwell on the MAJOR issues that we agree on, and that the bible
is very clear about.  I trust God to clear up the minor issues, where we
may have a disagreement, in HIS own time.

Understanding Truth is a process, but the bible makes it very clear that 
scripture is the objective standard of Truth and points the way to the
Living Truth.  As for me, I will continue to seek to know Him, and the
power of His resurrection, and the fellowship of His sufferings.  I will
seek to know Him through all the various ways He makes Himself known, but I
will use the scripture to judge whether the subjective is really His voice
or not.


Love in Him,

Bing

        The heavens declare the glory of God;
             the skies proclaim the work of his hands.
          Day after day they pour forth speech;
             night after night they display knowledge.
          There is no speech or language
             where their voice is not heard.
          Their voice goes out into all the earth,
             their words to the ends of the world.

                                        - Psalm 19:1-4


    

    	re .105
    
    	Just sounds like more relativism.

| <<< Note 544.110 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "decolores!" >>>


| Just sounds like more relativism.


	Then you are setting limits on Him, aren't you?

    Can we do a DELETE ENTRY GLEN/RATHOLE?
    

| <<< Note 544.113 by MIMS::CASON_K >>>

| Can we do a DELETE ENTRY GLEN/RATHOLE?

	you can hit next unseen.....

    note .112 and .114 have been set hidden.
    
    Bing

    Just a thought - but maybe the less serious replies could be moved to
    the "humor" topic - Donna asked a serious question and perhaps the
    topic should remain focussed in that manner.
    
    Just my 2 cents...
    
    Steve
    

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