Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Oh Ladies, if you stop treating your husband like children they will
    stop acting like children.
    
    
    
    
    
    
    			Yeah, RIGHT!
    
    
    
    
    -s
    

    re: .19213
    >women use both hemispheres of their brain and MOST men don't<
    
    well, I'm glad to know that at least 1 man admits it! :-)
    
    re: .19221
    >>Hey, I represent that remark!!!!! .... :-}<<
    
    yes, you and most others of the male homosapien species! 
    
    Can you tell this has been an issue with me lately!! 
    You know the old saying "Oh Lord, it's hard to be humble when you're
    perfect in ever way!"
    
    Oh, HAVE A NICE DAY!
    (she-said-through-clenched-teeth-but-with-big-smileys-after-each-statement)
    
    

       >>women use both hemispheres of their brain and MOST men don't<
        
       > well, I'm glad to know that at least 1 man admits it! :-)
    
    I readily admit to having a one track mind (that's why I asked it
    you'd been talking with my wife. 8^)
    
    There are times that having a one track mind comes in handy and other
    times not:
    
    1) When I am working on a project I can concentrate on getting in done
       well, without being distracted by what's going on around me.  On the 
       other hand...
    
    2) When I'm reading the paper (or doing anything else) and my wife
       wants to talk with me, sometimes I literally don't hear her.  This
       is NOT good.  I've learned to have my atenna up when Sheila speaks
       (after all she is the most important person in my life). 8^)
    
    Bing 
    

    >> I've learned to have my atenna up when Sheila speaks
    
    It's always a pleasure to see a well-trained man :-)

    Oh, Good Afternoon, by the way.
    
    Today has been BUSY!!! I go home in half and hour though.

    Is everyone finished throwing spears... Is it safe to come out and chat
    now....

    I know this is suppose to be a tongue in cheek discussion (I think)
    but......

    I don't want to get to deep into this husband/wife thing, but I know in
    my case (not an excuse mind you just a cause) I'd been shaped into my
    attitude by my mother and my wife (earlier in our marriage)...

    WHY... growing up, everything I did and said was "stupid" in my
    mothers' eyes and mind... So I learned to keep things to myself. When
    Peggy and me first got married (well after about 1 year) it started all
    over again. Every time I had an opinion, it was "stupid" or "wrong".

    Again, it's not an excuse, I am responsible for my own actions... BUT I
    aloud these two people to convince me that when ever I expressed myself
    I'd be stupid or wrong... So, I built walls. I stopped talking, I
    didn't communicate... Not even to my kids for the longest time. Short
    one word or small phrase answers to everything...

    I feel I'm working my way (though slowly) out of this. But I've got a
    long way to go.. I still can not express myself to Peggy. Why just this
    morning she asked me what I'd been studying, in the Bible, the last few
    days... I told her only that I was studying "stuff about work"... What
    I really want to do is *talk*, really talk about what I've been
    reading, but I still have the "stupid" mind set....

    Sorry for the rambling, but this talk about husbands and such struck a
    cord/nerve because it's something I'm struggling with every day. 

    I guess I just took one big step by spilling my guts here..

    I'll crawl back under my rock now....

    Bob

 Don't crawl under a rock, Bob...I'm quite familiar with what you 
 expressed, having had a similar situation in my home (pre-marriage)
 and married life.

 When I'd express myself to my wife (who was frequently giving me a bad
 time because I wouldn't express myself) she'd say something like "do you
 realize how many times you said 'ya know'?"  


 
 I could also go on for quite awhile on this one.



Jim

	Bob,
	The previous were totally meant in fun.

	I know my husband's smart - look who he married ! ;-)

	Tearing down one's spouse never leads to gain.  

	Karen

    I TOTALLY agree and understand Karen, I'm not saying it wasn't "in fun"
    what I hoped to have said is that it struck a cord because I am
    presently stuggling with this very issue in my life. I still have
    trouble carrying on conversation with Peggy. She is a gabby type person
    and I am short, *sweet* and to the point type with little ability of
    carrying on conversation, at the present time. I'm working on this
    problem. I pray that things like Promise Keepers and the upcoming men's
    roundup will help somewhat.
    
    I do think my biggest problem in this is ingaging in conversation that
    becomes confrontational... I don't want that, so I don't converse at
    all.
    
    

    Bob,
    
    I am very impressed at your ability to express yourself here. :-)  And
    I'm so glad you opened up.  FWIW, your ability to communicate, express
    yourself and make complete sense comes across really well in your
    writing.  Perhaps, this is a way to start with your wife.  
    
    My Pastor often says that when you are in a relationship with someone
    that writing letters is paramount to understanding each other.  Somehow
    the impersonal pen allows for very personal communication.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

     >WHY... growing up, everything I did and said was "stupid" in my
     >mothers' eyes and mind...
    
    Yea, I was just having fun too.  My wife and I are learning more to
    understand and appreciate our differences.  It can go the other way
    too, where men think their wives are "stupid" because they think
    differently.  Men tend to be more logical in general than women, and
    women tend to be more intuitive.  One is no better than the other, just
    different.  God made us that way to learn from and build up each other.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    Bob,
    
    I agree with Karen (topic was just in fun) and Nancy (you express
    yourself very well here!)
    
    However, on a serious note (like Bing) I think it's something
    (communication between spouses and/or the world at large) that we all 
    have trouble with at one time or another, in varying degrees.
    
    It is interesting to note, as Nancy did, how much easier it is to write
    something and express it much clearer and direct than in conversation. 
    Probably because we are more removed from the EMOTIONS (i.e.
    confrontation) - we are not as concerned with the other persons feelings, 
    more with expressing our own. 
    
    Keep talking,
    Karen

    I really believe that the reason communication becomes strained in
    relationships is the "fear of rejection".
    
    We all want unconditional love, the love that God gave us on Calvary. 
    Unfortunately, when we marry, we tend to look to our mates for this
    love.  But our mates are only human and fail us.  And then we feel
    unlovable and/or unloved.  
    
    Brothers and Sisters, let's be careful to not make gods out of our
    mates by expecting them to meet our "inner" needs.  Truly we all know
    that only Christ can meet those needs.  A mate can be used by God in
    that way, but just remember God died for them too, they will fail or
    make mistakes.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

	ouch... I think Nancy just hit a nerve...

    From my journal 25-jan-1993
    
    
    God gave me the most incredible discernment this weekend.  It will
    probably seem so elementary to you... but I was dealing with a person
    who had been unfaithful to their mate and as a result is divorced.
    
    Now they are contemplating a relationship with someone else and the
    topic of sexuality came up.  As I was trying to explain that even
    though they or the other person don't have a spouse that immorality
    is sex between any two persons outside the bond of marriage.
    
    As I was saying this, these words and a beautiful picture behind those
    words came to mind, I will try to recreate it here:
    
    Even though you do not have a spouse for which to be faithful to, you
    and this other person still have someone else in your life.  That
    someone else is the Lord, Jesus, himself, and He requires you to be
    faithful to Him.  
    
    The image still in mind is this:
    
    Imagine the two of you standing before Christ pouring your love into
    Him, giving Him your best, making Him your first love and as you are
    pouring your love into Him, His arms are encompassing you with a
    greater abundance of love being poured out.  He is bonding the two of
    you together in His love, which is much more pleasurable and lasting
    then anything you can share in the flesh right now.
    
    I dunno, perhaps that discernment was more directed towards me, but
    nonetheless it was what God gave me for a friend of mine.
    
    It was so powerfully beautiful to feel this, even though I knew it in
    my head for a long time... !!! Sheesh I guess I'm just a romantic, even
    when it comes to love of Christ. :-)
    
    In Him,
    Nancy
    

The time to critically assess each other is before marriage.  When we are
least able to!  The marriage commitment implies that each accepts the
other, and by that commitment, we take on board the faults as well as the
virtues of the other.  After marriage, we begin to find out what this
implies, but by then we are mutually responsible for each other and to each
other. 

If I see a flaw in my spouse, it becomes my responsibility.  Not to speak
out correction - that would be pushing the responsibility away, instead of
accepting it; it is bound to put a strain on the relationship, and more
likely to build a wall retaining the flaw, than to remove it.  Rather, my
responsibility is to accept it before the LORD as an area I need to have
put right in me, so that it doesn't have power to concern me, any more than
it does my spouse. 

The difference between men and women at the same time attract and repel.
Sometimes of course, these are different differences... ;-} 

							Andrew

>    How do you handle differences of opinion/conflict between yourself and
>    the one closest to you?  This could be your spouse, parent, sibling,
>    friend.

    I read that book.

	I'm not sure if this should go here, or somewhere else, but
	since Nancy raised the point, I'll put my input here.

	Nancy's reply made me realize that the two things I've
	been struggling with are actually one.

	I have been feeling separated from God these past few
	weeks, and struggling to return to Him.  I know who it is that moved, 
	but yet I'm having trouble in prayer.  I feel as though I shouldn't
	be bringing my own needs before Him (I have no problem praying
	for the needs of others) because of my lack of discipline.

	At the same time, I've been experiencing some strife in my
	marriage.  The other night, I decided I was feeling unloved.
	I blamed it on Jamie, and began to point out things that showed
	he didn't truly love me, or at least made it feel that way.

	Of course, Jamie's not behaving any differently than he ever
	has.  I just realized that this distance I feel between God
	and I has left me feeling alone and unloved, and I have been
	turning to Jamie expecting him to fill that emptiness.

	Nancy, thank you so much for your note of awakening!!!!

	now, where's that repentence note ??

	Karen

	Due to another of Nancy's comments (this one to Bob), I re-read
	my note and realized it expressed what I've been unable to 
	communicate to my husband.

	So, I just extracted it and mailed it to him, and asked for
	his forgiveness.

	Nancy, do you feel at all like an angel today ??

    Oh I just got tingles inside.
    
    Isn't it wonderful how the Lord uses others to speak with
    us when we won't listen to Him speaking to us himself!
    
    

    Well, I'm in tears.   Praise God!
    
    We're all alike you know.  If we look inside ourselves and recognize
    our own fears, you'll soon find that your mate's fears aren't too very
    different.   God created us to be one, remember? :-)  So we must
    innately be alike, although our outputs are different. :-)
    
    Hugs, 
    Nancy

I have a problem with anger.  I have been an angry all my life, as far
back as I remember.  This causes problems, as you can imagine, in my
marriage.  I tend to 'stuff things' (keep it to myself) until it gets to a
point I could almost self-destruct, I'm so angry.  When I finally do start
to deal with the issues, it's hard to be rational, in control.  Half the
time, my spouse has no idea how I've gone from 0 - 60 in 10 seconds.  Alot
of my anger comes from childhood issues (controling, almost sufficating
parents; sexual abuse).  I was not aware of the abuse when I married; it
came to the surface about 1 year later and I've been (trying) to deal with
it ever since.  I am also aware, through reading books on the subject and
counseling, that I use sex as a way to stay in control (either by not
consumating at all or being distant in bodily/emotional response when we
do come together.)  Sexual intimacy is the ultimate in being vulnerable,
baring your soul, and to this point I have not been able to do it.  My
anger comes into the bedroom via the past or is transferred to my spouse
because of some way I've been hurt or wronged.  We have been married
several years and this has been a source of pain to both of us, as we know
it's not the way God has intended for it to be.  We have tried dealing
with it ourselves, gone to counseling, talked with people that have/had
similar problems, cried out to God.

Has anyone else dealt with this?  Do you have any words of wisdom for me? 
    

    I don't have any personal experience in this area, but it sounds very
    serious (as in, it may be putting your marriage at risk). My only
    advice (besides continual prayer) is to keep at going to counseling.
    Something this serious that's so deeply rooted is going to take time to
    eradicate. Keep at it until you succeed.
    
    	BD�

    Dear Anonymous,
    
    Due to a heavy workload I will be unable to respond to your memo right
    away.  But being so intimately aware of what you are going through, I
    did want to let you know I will respond.  I love you, Sis and my
    prayers are with you.  
    
    Nancy

    Bill and Anna Belle Gilham have a tape series entitled "Living the
    Victorious Christian Life".  The first 4 tapes deal with our
    relationship to God and allowing Him to meet our needs.  The last two
    tapes deal with the husband and wife relationship.  Bill is a former
    psychologist.  I would highly recommend this tape series to any
    Christian who is struggling (in their walk with the Lord or in their
    marriage).  The truths covered in this tape series have heavily
    contributed to both my wife and I learning how to "walk in victory". 
    Our marriage has greatly improved as a result of our understanding who
    we are in Christ, who our partner is, and how to better communicate and
    allow Christ to meet each others needs through us.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    I pray that you learn to bask in God's love, grace, and forgiveness for
    you so that your ability to love and forgive will increase. 

    Dear Anonymous...
    
    Even though you're not known to me, our heavenly Father surely knows
    you, knows your struggle and hurts, and loves you dearly...surely He
    wants the best for you and your spouse in marriage.
    
    It's so sad the way things are twisted in this world system.  Marriage
    is such a tremendous picture of His love for us, it's no wonder it is
    the primary "attack" point of the wicked one.  It may help you and your
    beloved, as you struggle and wrestle through things together, to be
    reminded of the fact that the One who lives in you is infinitely
    greater than the one who lives in the world.  What a blessing!
    
    He really wants to minister to you through your spouse and vice-versa -
    and though I don't know you, I would suspect that your spouse is likely
    strong in the areas you need help and vice versa; likewise, your spouse
    "iritates" areas in you that need work and vice versa - sort of a
    life-long Potter's workshop where togther, the two have become one, and
    the Potter does His fantastic work in your midst; molding, shaping,
    forming you more and more into His image (see Romans 8:28-30).
    
    Let me second (very strongly!) Bing's recommendation on the Gilham's
    materials.  Rather than view the Bible through the filter of our
    circumstances, the Gilham's have done a wonderful job of viewing our
    circumstances through the Bible, from its perspective.  Just wonderful
    stuff there.
    
    Lastly, may you both find the healing, comfort, and victory that are
    already yours by the grace and mercy of the One who gave all...
    
    Love in Him,
    
    
    Steve

	Sister, you are in my prayers.

	Just wanted to update folks on yesterday's happenings.
	
	Jamie didn't get a chance to read my mail yesterday, and we
	had a dear friend from California visiting last night.  I
	did tell him I'd sent him mail, and that it contained an
	apology.

	He read it this morning, and his first response was, "Why
	didn't you tell me?"

	The answer was complicated - I didn't know the whole picture
	until yesterday, and the pieces I did know were difficult to
	explain.  Also, I felt a bit guilty at my lack of discipline,
	and embarrassed to confess where I was at in my walk.

	Suffice to say, not all lack of communication comes from stuffing.
	Sometimes, we know something bothers us, but it takes a while to
	understand *why* it bothers us and where it's coming from.  I 
	believe that God worked through Nancy yesterday to show me
	something I needed to see, and that brought the whole picture
	into focus.

	Karen

It's difficult, at best, to try to help in a forum like this.  Having said that,
let me share a few simple principles.

First, I would agree with the statement that has already been made: continue
in counseling.  The most important aspect in counseling is the giving of hope.
It's too easy for us, in the midst of the pain and changes that will come, to
give up hope.  When we become discouraged, we need someone who can help us
refocus on Christ and move on *through* the pain to renewed hope.

Second, you will need to forgive.  One of the indications that we have allowed
anger to take root and become bitterness, is when we "blow up" over little 
things.  We react to the current hurt, or disappointment, so violently, because
we are reacting to the hurts and disappointments that this person, or others,
have inflicted upon us over weeks, or months, or years.  All the pent up anger
is vented on the current incidence, even though, looked at independantly, it's
probably not that big of an issue.

When forgiving those who have caused us pain in the past, we need to remember
a few things.  For one, the person who caused the pain is at fault.  This is
important, because many people, in particular victims of sexual abuse, tend
to blame themselves for what happened.  This is simply not true.  It is the
person who sinned against you that committed the "crime" regardless of whether,
or not, you gave them occasion to commit it.  There is no justification for
their sin, and they must bear the penalty alone, or seek forgiveness.

If you are concious of your own sin in the situation, then you need to seek
forgiveness from the other person, and from God.  For example: you get angry
and hit another person, who then beats you.  Your hitting them was as much a
sin as their beating you.  Ideally, both should seek forgiveness for their
individual sin.  But, at no time did your hitting the other person (my example)
justify the beating.  Both were wrong, and both need to be forgiven.

Another helpful thing would be to take a few steps back, and look at some things
objectively.  The first thing is Christ's love and forgiveness.  Realize how
great His love is, and how willing He was to forgive you and cleanse you from
your sin.  Recognize how much He, because of His love, suffered so that we
could experience the cleansing, healing and overwhelming power of His forgive-
ness.  Bask in His forgiveness.  Look deep into His eyes and know how much He
loves you.  It will overwhelm you at first, and you may never fully comprehend
how He could love you so much, but accept that He does love you more than you
are capable of accepting today.

Then think about the person who hurt you so deeply.  Their sin is inexcusable.
But, remember Christ's love, and His forgiveness.  You are incapable of for-
giving a person who has hurt you so deeply, but Jesus can give you all the
grace you need.  Cry to Jesus, and ask Him to heal the wound, and fill your
heart with love.  Plead with Him to take away the pain, and enable you to 
forgive completely, with all your heart.  Whenever this person comes to mind,
don't allow yourself to dwell on the sin that was committed, instead let Christ
take control of your thoughts, and actively desire to forgive.  Put the healing
power of forgiveness to work on the wound, rather than rubbing salt into it.

We always have to remember that our minds have stored away all the things that
have happened to us.  Some of those things we have pushed into some far off
dark closet in our memory, but the pain still haunts us.  We have to conciously
bring the healing, and cleansing, power of Christ's love to bear on those 
memories until Jesus takes that pain away.  Some things will go quickly, but
others will take some time.  Don't go looking for those closets, though.  Let
Him bring you to them slowly.  He knows what you can handle, and he will guide
you to those things that need to be dealt with, and leave others alone.  Trust
Jesus to know what's best.

Once the healing process has begun to take hold, seek to be reconciled with the
person who sinned against you.  It would be wrong to go to that person in anger
and bitterness, attacking them, in order to get them to confess to their sin.
When we have removed the beam (the unforgiveness and bitterness) from our eye,
we can help remove the "splinter" from the other persons.  Jesus did not mean
to assign any kind of value judgment to the other person's sin.  All He wanted
to make clear to us is: we must deal with our own sin first, because it is
hampering our attempts to help others.  We must be able to humbly accept our
own wrong-doing (sin), if we want to deal with other people's sin in accordance
with Galatians 6:1, ie in a spirit of meekness.

If the person does not want to be reconciled with you, then you have to leave
the situation alone.  It's regretable, but many times that is what happens.
None the less, we need to close the book on the situation, and get on with 
living our lives.  In some cases, time will tell.  It's always possible that
someone who doesn't want to be reconciled to us today, will soften with time
and the relationship can be healed later.

Thirdly, the lines of communication with our spouses need to be opened.  It
will take time and understanding from both parties to work through all these
issues.  The spouse is just as affected as we are.  God put man and wife to-
gether because we need companionship.  We need a deep bond with our spouses,
and there are two things that expediate that bonding.  Communication is one
and sex is the other.  The underlying catalyst is trust which is built on love.

In other words, we marry out of love.  It's a good feeling, we're excited, and
we make a commitment to each other.  As time goes on we learn more about our-
selves and each other.  We begin to realize that the person we married really
does love us, and will be with us for the rest of our lives.  Trust begins to
grow, and we are less afraid to open up.  We open up through communication
which helps us "bond" on mental, emotional, and spiritual levels.  We learn
to give of ourselves to the other person physically through our sexual rela-
tionship.

You see, both communication and sex are giving, and not taking.  We are giving
of ourselves, and that's why we shy away from it at times.  Especially when
we've been hurt in the past, we concentrate on protecting ourselves.  But, as
we learn to give of ourselves in these areas, the other person will also give
to us, and we receive the blessing of having tapped into that deep well that
God has put into each of us.  The encouragement that comes from the counsel of
the other person's heart, and the affection that grows as we see their trust
in us, and faithfulness to us, are the true blessings of marriage.  It all
basically becomes a continuous cycle of giving, receiving, trusting and giving
more...

I hope that this helps.

Rob

Thanks to everyone who took the time to reply.  Most everyone echoed
thoughts/feelings that I have and its good to have confirmation of those
things - sometimes being in the middle of this situation, we're not always
sure we're seeing things clearly because we're so desperate for a solution
(and quickly!)  It is good to receive the counsel of the brethern.

Note .30 especially struck a chord with me as I feel this is what God has
been revealing to me over the past month or so.  Sometimes when He reveals
something to us it's like a lightbulb going on and suddenly we "get it". 
Other times, the revelation comes in bits and pieces - one precept builds
upon another - and this is how God has been handling my situation.  For a
long time, I was trying to handle this on my own - I didn't see it that
way at first; I thought I was turning it over to Jesus - but He's shown me
I didn't and couldn't do it on my own power.  It's truly been "Let go and
let God".

I also appreciate the detail in note .33 - many good principles/thoughts
in there as well.

One other person expressed concern over the marriage - obviously, all this
anger (on my part, not his) is not good - but I have made progress over
the years.  Neither one of us feels our marriage is headed for the rocks. 
I'm not naive enough to believe "it could never happen to me" because it
can and does happen to christians every day.  I believe the first step
toward protecting a marriage is to be aware of what the problems are and
work toward fixing them.  It's the people that don't pay attention to
their spouses, don't spend time together, that suddenly find themselves
growing apart and leave themselves open to various temptations.  I have an
understanding and sensitive husband - it hurts me that he's had to go
through these hard things because of me - he's put up with more than I
think most men would.  If he was not a christian, I'm sure he would have
walked by now.  He is truly God's gift to me and has played the most
important part in whatever healing/progress I've made.    

I'm feeling very weary from fighting this battle over the past several
years.  Thank you for reading, for your counsel and for your prayers.
    

    Gee Greg, I have to admit that in respect to counseling I'd agree with
    you. =:-)
    
    My Brothers have done a wonderful job at outlining what I am in total
    agreement with in regards to healing.  I'd like to list what I believe
    the steps are in this process as God revealed them to me in my own
    healing.
    
    As you may recall I was sexually abused by my father.  I never
    confronted my father, but with my father's death, God released me from 
    the guilt and self-destruction by:
    
    1. By acknowledging my value lies in Him, not next to another Human
       (whether it be parent, brother, sister, friend, etc)
    
    2. Ownership awareness, taking inventory of my life and purging
    
    3. Separating from my parent... this is complicated.  The shame
       of what my father did, I blamed myself for, took on his sin
       as a defect in me.  Had to break that cord.  I couldn't 
       see what he did was wrong and get angry about it, cause I
       was the one to blame (I was 2 years old when it started)
       
    4. Seeing God as the loving Father, not the Critical parent
       I think this is self explanatory
    
    5. Victory in forgiveness - lest Satan have an advantage over your
       life.
    
    2Corinthians 2:10  To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if
    I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in
    the person of Christ;
     11  Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant
    of his devices.
        
    6. Renewing of your Mind
       Romans 12 "But be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind"
       Phil 4:8  "Whatsover things are true, noble, right, pure, lovely,
                  ...therefore think on these things"
	There needs to be a *purification* process... as was an old
	Jewish practice [details can be provided].
    
        
    Don't get trapped into a way of thinking that is false about yourself
    and about God.  
    
    More in another note.
    
    Love ya,
    Nancy

p.s.  re: Bill and Anna Belle Gilham tape series

Can I buy/order these from a christian bookstore or do I need to send away
to another organization?  Thanks.
    

    >Can I buy/order these from a christian bookstore or do I need to send
    >away to another organization?  Thanks
    
    You should be able to get them from most Christian bookstores.  If you
    have a problem, you can let me know through Nancy and I would be glad
    to either order them locally here (Atlanta) and mail them to you, or
    get the address where they can be ordered.  The Gilham's ministry is
    called "Lifetime Guarantee" and is based out of Texas.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing 

  Hi Everyone,

    I have been having some thoughts that I think are very
    relevent to this topic.  There have been times lately
    where I have been struck with how little my heart/mind
    is joined with those of my wife and two daughters.

    Its hard for me to convey; its much like a notion that
    I cannot put into words.

    Its sort of like sometimes when I interact with my daughters,
    I feel like I am one island and they are another.  I feel
    like the _essence_ of true interaction is to see right into
    the soul of someone and to know intimately their hurts,
    struggles, aspirations, needs, etc.  I feel like our inter-
    actions are on mainly a physical plane.  That the process of
    KNOWING is one in which I am a toddler at best.

    Sometimes, I think about this and I have this pretty deep
    sense of soul-poverty.  Its like I'm death inside.  Its like
    the essence of being a light for someone else is mainly cut
    off right at a core of what it all means.

    Hebrews 13:3
    Remember the prisoners as if chained with them, and those who
    are mistreated, since you yourselves are in the body also.

    I feel like if we walked in the light as He is in the light, we
    would be so overwhelmed with a need to uplift others that we
    would cry out for discernment.  We would KNOW people.  We would
    know the cry of their hearts.

    And do you know what?  We would remember those prisoners to sin
    as if chained with them in THEIR sin.  We would yoke up with them.
    If the discernment was enough, we would trace the evil impulses
    of every person from cause to effect, cause to effect.  And we
    would yoke with that experience and realize our complete need of
    a Savior.  We would actually feel their weight and in the feeling
    of their weight, of the mistreatment sin has brought on to the
    mind, we would have a compassion like we never had it before.

    And by the way, I do believe this was Christ's experience.  I believe
    He did that tracing of cause and effect and knew the heart of (for
    example) the woman at the well.  The bread He had for her mind was
    PERFECT and it was supplied in part through Christ's own experience
    of yoking up with her and being chained with her in her struggles.

    And if it doesn't start with the family, WHERE?

    I want to look at my children that way.  I want to know all their
    struggles and I want them to be my struggles as I yoke up in heart-
    union with them.  And of course my wife too.

    Malachi 4:5,6
    Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the
    great and dreadful day of the Lord
    And he will turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the
    hearts of the children to their fathers,...

    It must...it will start with the family.  Oh, may my 'looking' at my
    wife and daughters reach far beyond the physcal and into the very
    reins of their hearts!  And that will help them look at me the same
    way.

    A day is coming when we will look at others in a way that we have
    never looked at people.  We will begin to realize the essence of
    true communication.  And we will labor for others as we have never
    labored before.

    Ahhh, some tears come.  Praise the Lord!

    By the way...in my 8+ years in the Christian Conference, this is one
    of the very finest topics I have ever been blessed to come upon.

    This is what its all about.

    Thank you all for your inputs.

                                                     God Bless You All,

                                                     Tony

    Re: Note 542.41 by YIELD::BARBIERI
    
�    I want to look at my children that way.  I want to know all their
�    struggles and I want them to be my struggles as I yoke up in heart-
�    union with them.
    
    I pretty much try to be a family man (and all too often fail), so I can
    relate to what you're saying. I don't have an answer. I do have one
    comment, though, that I hope comes across the right way. Please
    remember that the "heart-union" is really only with your wife. I think
    our jobs as parents is to raise our children so they can be responsible
    independent adults. It's the husband and wife that are "one flesh" -
    not the kiddies too. (Unfortunately, I don't often feel the heart-union
    even with my wife, but at least that's a realistic target to shoot
    for.)
    
    	BD�

    re: last few...
    
    Brothers, allow me to offer a couple cents here, and if it's of value,
    wonderful - if not, don't let it get in your way...
    
    As I alluded to in my chit-chat entry this morning, I didn't always
    realize the treasure He provided me in Sue.  You might accurately say I
    didn't feel any heart-union; or if I did, it was infrequent and
    unreliable at best.
    
    Somewhere along the line, He showed me I simply needed to *know* it was
    there because the Bible *says* that we have become one (whether it
    feels like it or not).
    
    Knowing that union is there, even when it doesn't feel like it (and
    that still happens sometimes...), is cause to rejoice and hang on in
    faith.
    
    Lastly; it seems to me that as husbands, our role is simple (said quite
    tongue-in-cheek ;-) - that is, to love our brides as He loves us.
    
    I need to continually check in with Him and ponder how He loves me, and
    then trust Him to do the same *through* me to minister to Sue.
    
    I just finished writing something about this in SOAPBOX (believe it or
    not ;-).  Today must be "love day" ;-)
    
    Steve

    re .41
    
    Thanks for sharing from your heart Tony.
    
    I want so much for my kids to know their daddy loves them with all his
    heart, and even more so to know that their Heavenly Abba loves them in
    ways that we can't even begin to comprehend.  Sometimes I blow it,
    sometimes they blow it.  I want them to know that I am always there for
    them.  I try to do things with them that THEY like doing as well as
    trying to let them know who they are in Christ (I heard somewhere that
    kids spell love: "T - I - M - E".  Hopefully when they envision their 
    Heavenly Father they will be able to see Him the way he really is, as a 
    result of having a positive image of their earthly father.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing
    
    
    

    Barry,
    
    I agree/disagree with your statement about the union of parent to
    child.  The most powerful thing that anyone can do is speak the heart
    of another.  Edward Bach who was a naturalist wrote something very
    poignant, which I believe,
    
    "Before we diagnose others we have to achieve self knowledge.  We are
    only able to understand others in spheres where we understand 
    ourselves."
    
    I agree that we are not to become one flesh with our children, but I do
    believe that we are to be "unified" with our children, as we are called
    to do with body of believers in Christ.
    
    The statement above by Edward Bach gives insight as to how we should
    know our wives, husbands, children and other believers.
    
    Remember Christ says to make him FIRST and our relationship to others
    will naturally follow.  If you look at the beatitudes as steps of
    growth, you will find that one of the key ingredients is the poor in
    spirit, actually it's the first ingredient.  Being poor in spirit can
    take on many meanings, but give this one a try.  Knowing yourself.  God
    says that we are all sinners, very poor in spirit wouldn't you say? 
    Knowing our sin conditions [knowing ourselves] is paramount to our
    Christian walk, our self image is so vitally important.
    
    Please don't confuse this with selfishness.  Knowing oneself in truth
    is different than knowing oneself in pride.
    
    Be encouraged Brothers and Sisters, God knows us even when we don't,
    just keep going back to Him.  Let Him be your mirror.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy