Conference yukon::christian_v7

    >But, apparently some beautiful woman had cast her spell over
    >him, and he could not keep away from her. 
    
    How can anyone reconcile this statement with personal accountability?
    
    
    

    Interesting point Nancy.  When I read your reply, I thought of the 
    incident at the last supper.  Right before Judas left the room,
    it says the following:
    
    "And when he had dipped the sop, He gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son
    of Simon.  And after the sop, Satan entered into him.  Then said Jesus
    unto him, That thou doest, do quickly."  John 13:26,27.
    
    I happen to agree with you completely on the personal responsibility 
    aspect, I just find it an interesting subject as to who is to blame,
    the culprit or the tempter!!
    
    In Christ,
    
    -Jack

 James 1: 14,15.





 Jim

�    	Do I detect a Pharasaical attitude surfacing? 

Hi Greg, 

It's just that saying someone had 'cast a spell over him' makes it sound as
if he were incapable of controlling himself, and that it was the
responsibility of the spell caster.  In fact, the devil and his minions
have no *power* over the Christian, who is always responsible to exercise
his will to do right and not wrong.  The man merely gave in to temptation -
a severe temptation, apparently, but still just temptation, at whatever
level the enemy enticed him.  He was still responsible for his actions, and
to imply otherwise is to cloud the issue. 

Why do you think that this is Pharisaical?

							Andrew

    I think Greg was using a figure of speech that shouldn't be taken
    literally.

    People like myself who come from the lower ends of life, are use
    to such  terminology.;)

     Jim

    >and he could not keep away from her.
    
    Okay, forget the spell... why couldn't he keep away from her?  Do you
    believe that he is accountable for his behavior?

    
    Why does anybody sin?  Those who haven't and have gone living into the
    presence of God or have died accepting the sins of others are rather
    few in number.
    
    I am rather encouraged that prayer and the Holy Spirit can help a
    repentant sinner to overcome temptation and find redemption.
    
    Otto

      Count me as one who cannot see why these replies on Greg's
      description of how this fellow gave in.  Without knowing
      the heart, why not assume the best?  We know the guy gave
      in, we know Greg used the expression "cast a spell over him",
      but COME ON!!!  
    
      Give Greg a break.  This is absurd.  I honestly don't think
      Greg implied the guy was not accountable or if he had not 
      exercised faith, could not have denied the temptation.
    
      I see Pharisaism too.  Greg shares something important to him
      that he thinks might be edifying and without knowing his intention
      of his words, we pick gnats all the while the weightier matters of
      the law seem to be left out.  (I.e. as in give Greg the benefit of
      the doubt...be merciful and loving.)
    
                                                 Tony

Well, the Bible does tell us to judge the fruit in order to determine what kind
of a tree it is.  Obviously, since this man repented and his family has been
healed, there was good fruit.  The question remains, though, which branch did
God use in order to bear the fruit?  Was it the hot-napkin?  Or was it the
earnest prayers and supplications of a despairing wife?  Or simply the grace 
and mercy of a loving God?  Only God knows for sure.  The problem is that we
all tend to concentrate on the branch.

Sure it's nice to think that it was *my* branch that bore the fruit.  And it 
can be tempting to criticize the branch if it looks a little crooked to me.
Both the former and the latter attitude have drawbacks and problems.  And it
would be easier to not criticize the bends in the branch when the fruit, and 
not the branch, were being praised.

Rob

Hi Greg,

Remember that we're just people!  We participate here as individuals, and 
the fact that we also perform moderator duties shouldn't make you feel 
overwhelmed or threatened by our participation, as you imply in .7.  Note 
that we didn't add the 'co-mod' tag to our sign-off!

You seemed to rather miss the point of my .6.  You didn't respond to my
query, but focused on a minor aspect.  I was trying to clarify Nancy's
reservation as expressed in .1, which you seemed troubled about for some
reason in .3.  You still didn't understand from, Jim's reference, so I had
a try ;-) 

Re .10, what troubled me when I read .0 was the emphasis on the instrument
and means, rather than the Author of Life, in spite of the last sentence, 
which is in such contrast to the rest of the note.

This was where I was uncomfortable with it.  I wanted to give you the benefit
of the doubt, Greg, as I'm sure it was your intent to give glory to God. 
However, the bulk of .0 comes over with a different emphasis.  You can put
this down to my lack of experience in this area, or to yours in relating it,
but when miracles are recorded through disciples in the Bible, the means and
individuals - both disciples and healed - are so subsidiary to the LORD that
He receives the total glory in a very different way, throughout. 

I wouldn't have mentioned it, but you pushed for an explanation of the 
reaction to .0 .  I think that this is what it stems from, even if concern
focused on, say, referring to 'spell', implying a demonic compulsion. 

I can rejoice in what the LORD has done; even in what He privileges His
servants to be used for, and would rather leave it at that! 

Greg, I can sincerely rejoice with you in what the LORD has done so
wonderfully, to restore a backslider and heal a broken marriage.  But Greg,
apart from your claiming the verse from Malachi, did the husband return to the
LORD and to his marriage reluctantly and out of compulsion, or out of a
repentant heart, desiring cleansing and restored faithfulness to the LORD? 
Not asking to nit pick, but because I wish to understand how you perceive the
LORD as working here. 

						God bless
							Andrew 

Hello Jack,

� I just find it an interesting subject as to who is to blame,
� the culprit or the tempter!!

I would suggest that they are both [potentially] guilty of different sins,
simplistically assuming the case where we are identifying both 'culprit' and 
'tempter' as people with the same sin in view.  Certainly the tempter has 
the intent, though the culprit may be more overtaken than intending...  

It is interesting to consider the verse from James in this respect:
  "Each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and
   enticed.  Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin, and sin,
   when it is full grown gives birth to death."  James 1:15 

The situation of the one identified as 'the culprit' is clearly described here.
The situation of the one identified as the human 'tempter' is more complex.  
Their 'desire', as described in James, is not to perform the sin; that is the
part of the culprit.  Their desire is apparently to corrupt or dominate the
culprit to the point of corruption.  This is a horrendous situation, and not
one in which one should find a Christian at all.  However, we find it
reflected in Revelation 2:20, and the Jezebel in the church.  Here, even she
was given room to repent, but rejected it.... 

						God bless
								Andrew 

      re: .16
    
      Hi Nance,
    
        In .16, you infer Greg discerned pharisaism on the basis of
        your disbelief of what you describe in .16 (some of the so-
        called miraculous manifestations).
    
        I find that to be a huge disconnect.
                                                  
        I reread Greg's mention of detecting pharisaism (.3) and the 
        reply I think he referred to (.1).
    
        Perhaps give .1 another read.  It seems to me to have everything
        to do with critiquing Greg's choice of words and assuming that
        (therefore) he did not believe in personal accountability.  I 
        couldn't find an iota's worth of relevence of the manifestations
        Greg described as relevent to the mention of pharisaism.
    
        The way I took the string, Greg may have used words that could
        connotate a few possible meanings, some of which aren't the 
        greatest (such as nonbelief in personal accountability).  I just
        think you could have asked for clarity before pouncing on his
        reply.
    
                                                  Tony

�        			To put things into their proper
�    		perspective; firstly, this was a work of God; and
�    		He deserves absolutely positively ALL the glory,

Thank you Greg.  That was all I meant.  We can rejoice in the result.

							Andrew

Re .21, Greg,

Setting aside the area of personal responsibility, let's take a short look at
giving God the glory.  I assume that it was your intention to praise God, but
all you did with the following statements was to praise yourself:

>    		but who had no idea of what was about to happen, ( and
>    		I had no idea that God was going to use my gifts of the
>    		Spirit in such a way as that ).  At the time I came
>    		into the picture, they were separated, and it looked
>   		impossible to the eyes of the natural.  But, my faith
>    		being super-charged when I heard about this woman's
>   		plight.  Not that I am any better than any other
>    		Christian, I am not.  But, because I have fought the
>    		good fight too, and I know what God can do.  Because
>    		I have the gift, and I have the faith for this.  When

I think that you will find more acceptance for yourself, and your gifts, if
you would learn to deemphasize your involvement.  Remove phrases like:

	using my gifts
	because of my faith
	I have fought, and I know
	I have the gift
	I have the faith

from your testimonies.  Remember, they should be testimonies of God's faithful-
ness rather than *your* faith victories.

Rob

    Greg,
    
    It's true that if one's eyes are focussed on man, then that is what he
    will see.  I think that's why John said, "He must increase, I must
    decrease" (just went through this in another conference...).
    
    Let's all consider how we can draw mankind's self-focussed eyes to a
    vision of the Holy One.
    
    
    Holy, holy, holy is the L-rd of hosts; the whole earth is filled with
    His glory!
    
    Steve

re. whomever gives a hoot.. 

	Not all miraculous power comes from the Spirit. Pharoah's magicians were
able to perform miracles. Antichrist and his deceptive buddy (the False Prophet)
will also perform miracles, even raising the dead and performing spectacular
heavenly light shows. So if miracles impress you then stay tuned cause there's
plenty more on the way!

	We should always ask what is the source of such power. Is it from the
Spirit or from some other source? We think there are only two choices, God or
the evil powers. Actually, there is a third choice, that is the psychic
soul-power of man. Since we often think there are only two sources of "power" we
confuse soul-power (yet a third power) with the power of the Spirit. Christians
often make this mistake because it is inconceivable to most of us that a
bonafide believer would ever be used by evil powers (yet that is a questionable
assumption also). Left with two choices, they assume every manifestation of
power that is not from evil sources must be the Spirit of God. Therein lies the
mistake. For within man there is also a psychic force (a soulish power) that
some have "tapped into" able to perform healings, wonders, etc.

	Assuming its authenticity, with this particular incident I do not know
the source. However, the description does not match any of those applied to
Spirit in the Bible. 


 A thorough review of this matter may be found in a book "The Latent Power of
the Soul" by Watchman Nee. 

Regards,
Ace

>    		have to understand each other.  It is not a smart idea
>    		to try to control God.  Instead, we need to learn to
>    		yield ourselves to Him, and simply go with His flow.
    
    Amen!  It is sort of ironic how the "name it and claim it" crowd
    doesn't realize this.  The faith movement is actually hindering the
    growth of their faith by trying to impose their will into God's will
    and using God as some great Santa Claus.  The faith movement actually
    reduces faith.  It takes much more faith to do as you say - turn it all
    over to God and pray that His will be done.
    
    Mike

    
    
    While it's true that God can and does work in mysterious and miraculous 
    ways, He also works through people in simple and ordinary ways.  I have 
    no doubt that God could have chosen to use simple heartfelt prayer
    between some other person (including yourself, Greg) and this man and
    the same result would have occurred.
    
    In the case of your story, God chose another means to achieve His
    purpose, but as someone else pointed out, was the outcome God's
    response to his wife's ferverent prayer, His mercy and goodness or the
    paper napkin?  No one knows for sure.  It could have been a combination
    of all these things - or not.
    
    I feel we need to be careful that we don't always need to "see a sign"
    for evidence that God is at work.  (Wasn't this part of the Isralites
    downfall?)  Yes, He can and does work in these ways, and we should be 
    careful not to hinder that, but faith is the evidence of "things not 
    seen."  He can work just as life-changing, far reaching works in us in 
    the depths of our souls all alone - without any human help. 
    
    Greg/anyone:  Does He ever reach/touch you with his 'still small voice'?
    
    "Be still and know that I am God."
    
    Karen   

Hi Greg,

In .25 you said:

>    			If your eyes are focused on man, then that is
>    		what you are going to see.

Could you explain what you mean by that?

Even if it was not your intention, your earlier reply drew my "focus" on to
yourself through your particular choice of words. 

I would agree with you that, to a certain degree, we limit God's expression of
His greatness by our lack of faith.  However, I believe the emphasis should 
always be on God's greatness independant of, and at times in spite of, the
vessel or method He uses.  His strength becomes most evident in our weakness.

Rob

    >    		is wrong.  Typically, what you will hear the same preachers
>    		say is: 'God's Word is God's Will', and they will give you
>    		at least a hundred scriptures to support healing, blessing,
>    		prosperity, salvation, and many other good things from God.
>    		And that is quite correct!  It is good to claim in faith what 
>    		God promised in His Word and to expect it to come to pass.

    Agreed.

>    		Did you claim salvation from the Lord?  If you did, then

    No, God and His Holy Spirit drew me to Him.  I merely accepted what He
    had offered and the price He paid for me.

>    		complaining against those who preach faith, because they
>    		have sour grapes, and sometimes they are bitter against God.
>    		( And, BTW, that is exactly what you sound like, Mike: a very
>    		bitter, angry person with an axe to grind.  What you are 
>    		doing is wrong, and it does not edify the body. )

    You don't know a thing about me and it is presumptuous of you to make
    such a statement.  When you talk of total submission to God's Will out
    one side of your mouth, and then health & wealth out the other I could
    accuse you of being the double-minded man in James 1:8,4:8.  But like
    you just said, it doesn't edify the body.  So why make those
    accusations about people you don't know?
    
>    			For instance, there are people who have made
>    		prayers concerning other people which they have no right
>    		nor authority to make.  For instance:  "Lord Jesus, I claim
>    		that person to be my husband/wife!!!  Thankyou, Lord it is
>    		dun!"  Well... that is wrong,too!!  Firstly, it does not res-
    >
>    		There are other areas where people really mess up.  But,

    One very good example is in the "Fourth Dimension" by Paul Cho where he
    tells single people to make a list of the top 10 qualities you want in
    a potential spouse.  Do these people really think that the God that
    created the Universe can't answer their prayers without an itemized
    list?  Do they really think the Creator doesn't know exactly what's
    best for them?  Do they really think they can impose their will on
    God's plan for their lives?  There is a *huge* difference between
    praying for God to send you the right mate (and having the faith that
    God will provide the mate He wills for your life) and making out a
    Christmas list and confessing to God that this is how He should deliver
    the answer.

    Mike

>    	Biblical, scriptural, or reasonable grounds for asking God:
>    	"Lord, is it your will to heal me?  Lord, is it your will to
>    	bless me?  Lord, is it your will to save?"   Why????  Because
>    	it is _already_ in His Word!!!!  If you know His Word, then
    
    It's God's Will that all be saved.  As for blessings, it depends on
    what kind.  Spiritual blessings are promised and He promised to meet
    our physical *needs* (as opposed to wants) if we do His Will (Matthew
    6:33).  What about healings?  Isaiah 53:5 is more likely referring to
    spiritual healing (i.e., cleansing of sin) rather than physical
    healing, although it could be both.  The context of Isaiah 53 is
    atonement or spiritual healing, not physical.  Where else are we promised
    physical healing?  Keep in mind, there are many people in the Bible
    greater than you and I who suffered afflictions and weren't healed.  If
    a great man of God like Paul had to endure his thorn in the flesh, then
    I would sincerely question promises of physical healing.  This is also
    proven today in many great Christian people who suffer for Christ.  We
    were never promised that serving Christ would be easy in any sense,
    only that we are assured of salvation.
    
    thanks,
    Mike

     Hi Ace,
    
       How's it going, hermano?
    
       Is this 'soul power' thing scriptural?  I'm not saying I agree or
       disagree...I'm just asking!
    
     General...
    
       Be careful about asking for a spouse.  God's will for you might 
       bear similarities to His will for Jeremiah or John the Baptist!!
    
                                                    Tony

�       Be careful about asking for a spouse.  God's will for you might 
�       bear similarities to His will for Jeremiah or John the Baptist!!

Just so long as it isn't like Samson or Hosea.....

The tougher the marriage, the more work it's doing preparing you for a 
great eternity....

							Andrew

    Greg, there are some decent ministries in the faith movement.  Even the
    bigger names are generally okay, but some seem to have little
    idiosyncrasies that smack of cultic doctrines.  That is where the
    danger lies.

    BTW - My mom has Benny Hinn's video on the Tabernacle.  In it, he
    basically goes over the OT types in the Tabernacle that point to Christ
    and the new covenant.  I thought it was excellent and very well done. 
    There was one thing in it that I didn't agree with, but it was still a
    pretty good presentation.

    Mike

I am really having problems in the area of napkin energy.

First of all I found that Greg's statements are mostly wonderful, except some
of the wording may be uncomfortable to someone.  The area that I really have
problem with is the "napkin energy". It is not that I do not think it is
possible, on the contrary, I know it happens all the time, every day, even
to my closest relatives.  Non of the napkin energy type miracle I know is from
God.  They are from either "soul power" or Satan. I guess my problem is that I
have heard too many fake ones so I am afraid of that when I see the real one, I
will reject it. I do not want to be a pharisee.

Greg, can you describe what exactly the Gift you get from God and how do you
exercise it to reveal God's Glory?  I think this might be a good testimony.

Wally

Hi Wally,

The napkin energy part is akin to what happened to Paul in Acts 19:11-12.
The enemy doesn't copy anything there isn't a genuine original for - he 
can't create anything himself.  Like they don't circulate fake $2.50 bills 
(do they?).  But we need to discern between the genuine, which brings glory 
to God, health and freedom, and the imitation which puts people in bondage, 
and ultimately turns their eyes from God.  I think it was the uncomfortable 
wording in particular which made people wary in case this was the wrong sort.

							God bless
								Andrew

Hi Greg,

It's that sort of input that makes us hesitate to take you seriously...
Even spell check might help some... ;-)

							Andrew

536.49� Greg,

That's for others to witness.  Not for you to claim.

Besides, I don't believe spell check has been around that long.  
I remember working on it around 10 years back. 

							Andrew

� I'll have to check my "Abnormal Psychology" book 

	- Ahhhhh!  Thanks Greg.

btw - It's not a case of 'judging between us'.  It's each individual before 
the LORD.  I *want* your heart to be right, and am looking for the 
evidence to draw out that fruit.....

					God bless
						Andrew

      re: .42
    
      Hi,
    
        I hope this can be for anyone's benefit.
    
        This is in reference to knowing what is real.  Recently, in
        a topic I believe on healing or on blindness, I mentioned the
        account of the blind man who was healed by Jesus, but whose
        sight became better in stages.  Following this is the story of
        Jesus asking His disciples who He is.  Peter said he was the
        Christ.  Immediately after this, Jesus said He had to go to the
        cross and Peter denied the cross.  Jesus then told Satan to get
        behind Him.
    
        Here we see an object lesson.  Our _knowing_ the real is gradual.
        Peter saw Christ, he recognized things, but he had a lot more sight
        left to attain.
    
        To add to this, Matt 23 discusses Jesus telling the pharisees that
        they are guilty of the sins of their fathers.  Why?  Because its in
        their hearts.  The big thing I saw with that was the main sin He
        was singling out - the sin of rejecting more truth (a deeper revela-
        tion of just what is the real).
    
        He sees the prophets come and they slew them.  In fact, this is the
        abomination of desolation.  When Israel itself, the group unto
        whom the oracles of God are committed (see Romans 3 I think) is
        blessed with greater light, but rejects it.  This abomination makes
        desolate ("Your house is left unto you desolate") for Christ can
        only sanctify through truth.
    
        Anyway, the admonition I see is to recognize that "if any man
        thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he ought" and
        "Thou knowest not."  To believe we know, that we essentially
        clearly see the real, is a self-defeating posture for if something
        fresh comes along, how can we possibly believe it is real?  We
        already KNOW the real!
    
        All these things happened for examples and were given unto us for
        our admonition unto whom the ends of the earth are come.
    
        This is our challenge.  To approach God with that humility.  "Lord
        I hardly know you.  I need the eyesalve as Your counsel (Rev 3)
        says.  But, You can help me see.  I need to know the real You."
    
        Another one of several paradoxes, but I believe our inner sense 
        of how much more of God to know will be that we know so little at
        that time we know so much.
    
        Just an admonition for all of us.
    
                                                       God Bless,  
    
                                                       Tony
    
      

    In the time since I started writing this - there's been more activity. 
    Please, beloved...take a break for a moment; read this, and let's all
    consider our words and their motivation...
    
Perhaps it's not mine to add any more commentary to this string and the 
direction it has taken.  However, I don't wish to be silent about this 
anymore.  There is a very troubling thing happening here and I believe we 
all need to get to the bottom of it and consider whether our words are 
reflective of His grace, wisdom and compassion or whether they are only so 
much more babble, gratifying our flesh and making a mockery of His Name.

We represent Him in the here and now, do we not?  Can we then consider our 
words, our very public words in this forum, to have an impact on how those 
who don't know Him will view Him?  If man is more concerned about 
preserving his own reputation at the risk of His, what kind of servant is 
that man?  (That, BTW, is a generic question, aimed at no one, but meant 
for us all, me first, to consider...).

Greg claims (in .49) in what appears to me to be an indignant tone that 
"they" (whoever 'they' are) "did the same thing to Jesus."

Now Greg, I'm going to share some things that you should not misconstrue as 
an attack on Greg.  Rather, I think some of things you've said are 
questionable and should receive some inspection...

First of all, I don't know what you feel is being done to you, Greg, 
secondly, it seems rather anti-humble to suggest you're receiving His 
treatment, thirdly, I don't remember Him adopting the tone that you have 
throughout this notesfile.  I know you've been told off-line and publically 
(by myself and others) that your delivery is difficult to break through; 
that it appears (even if you don't mean it this way, Greg) to focus on yourself 
at the exclusion of the L-rd (save a few phrases here and there).  But for 
whatever reason, you don't seem to be listening, Greg.  And really - people 
are not "out to get you"; they're trying to help you see something that 
you're having a hard time seeing.

Take a look back at .47.  Is that the way Jesus talked to people?

Andrew responded to that in .48 with a wise perception, if you'll take note 
of it:

>It's that sort of input that makes us hesitate to take you seriously...

Moreover, in his own way, Andrew (it seems to me) sought to balance the 
"sting" of this observation with a lighthearted comment (so as to not break 
a bruised reed perhaps).

Unless dealing with people who claimed to know it all (but really knew 
nothing), isn't that really more in line with the way Yeshua treated 
people?

Andrew also noted, quite politely, that while you announed your lack of 
suprise (in .49), that such was not yours to claim, but should be left for 
others to witness.  Don't you agree with that?  Didn't Yeshua rebuke the 
Pharisees for making their contributions public?  Didn't He instruct that 
we rather pray and do such things in quiet, where our Heavenly Father knows 
and will reward us for what we've done in secret?  And again, Andrew 
provided another lighthearted comment (so as not to snuff out a smouldering 
wick perhaps).

Mike Heiser popped in with a quick reply that could easily be construed as 
being intended to mock you...announcing that Andrew was "killing him".  
And, Mike - as I said to Greg, you shouldn't receive this as an attack 
against Mike.  Rather, it's an observation of a comment you made that 
deserves some inspection...

My own guess is that you (Mike) meant that Andrew's lighthearted comments, 
intended to lessen the blow of his observations of Greg's entries, were 
funny - I doubt Mike you meant to mock Greg (and I doubt that great means
to appear proud and defensive).  Apparently, we all (myself chiefly, I 
readily admit) need to consider our words carefully and seek only to speak 
words that minister life and glorify Him (as opposed to seeking words which 
cut people down and build up our own fleshly egos); and even moreso in the 
highly troublesome medium of NOTES.

Greg - you may well have interesting things to share; things that will bring 
much glory to the L-rd; but you're ignoring the witness of the faithful who 
are trying to tell you that your method of communicating is getting in the 
way of bringing glory to the L-rd.  In nearly every topic you've either 
started or in which you've contributed, these kinds of issues have come up.  
I suppose one way of looking at that is to say that you're being persecuted 
because you've got pure truth and others can't deal with that.  Another way 
of looking at that may be to ponder the advice of other believers, and 
consider it to be as "iron sharpening iron".

For all our consideration,

Steve

    (yikes - pardon the multiple typo's in .63, please...most notably the
    use of "great" when I meant "Greg" toward the end there....sorry).
    

 Perhaps, then, Greg, you'd respond to the question posed in .62?






Jim

    Folks,
    
    I'm with Steve, we need to be accountabile not to another man but to
    God as a witness and representative of Him.
    
    It is important that we test everything whether it is of God or not. 
    I, for one, wouldn't take anyone's word for such an outstanding
    testimony as has been given us here.  
    
    I often wonder how Jim Jones and David Koresh began their ministries...
    if only there were a way to get truth out of anyone who survived those
    tragedies to really examine the deception that took place.  What we do
    know from some who did survive is that appeared as sheep. 
        
    I must admit that I am rather disbelieving of much of this as being
    from God.  But I also must admit that I do not *know* it isn't from
    God.   
    
    Be cautious, abide in the vine and discern for yourselves.  
    
    I will do my best to post the relevant scriptures about false prophets,
    who they are, what they are like and what to do.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy
    

            >Your biased commentary, ( tendered in a form of
            >humility ), totally side-steps the issue of the discussion
            >which is: whether the power behind this miracle was of God
            >- or not.
    
    Greg,
    
    From the way this is phrased, you seem to know what Steve's motivations
    were in writing his note, and is written in a way which demeans Steve.  
    When I read the note, I thought it was saying the same thing that I did in 
    note 533.0.  That we need to be responding to one another in love.  I 
    didn't read anything in Steve's note which attacked either you or the 
    message you were trying to deliver, but rather the WAY it was said.  
    Regarding side-stepping the issue, I don't think Steve cared to get into 
    the discussion, rather he seemed concerned about the TONE of the discussion.
    
    The tone of the note has gotten to the point where people are attacking
    each other - I think THAT'S what Steve was trying to address.  Several
    people questioned the WAY you phrased the original note (I think that
    has been well documented in previous notes, so I won't bother to rehash
    it).  I thought some people did a good job of doing this in a loving 
    non-personal way and other did it in a way that was not as good by
    directing their response to your person (ie attack), rather than at the
    topic being discussed.  These attacks, have come from both sides.  When
    a person is attacked, the first reaction is to attack back, rather than
    listening and considering what the other person has to say.
    
    James 1:19 "But let everyone be quick to hear, slow to speak, and slow
    to anger".
    
    Let's seek to build one another up in love.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing 
              

    Shalom,
    
    I can see the wisdom in NOTE .63.  Thankyou Steve for posting it. 
    There has NOT been any real unbelief mentioned on the incident of
    prayer on the cloth (napkin) and for that I am truely glad.  The 
    couple Greg mentions are very close friends of mine.  I've spent a
    great deal of time in prayer and counsiling both the husband and wife,
    and have witnessed God's power in it all.  Today, this same couple 
    have a beautiful relationship.  Their marriage has been completely 
    restored.  In fact, God has strengthened them in area's that were 
    lacking in their marriage prior to act of adultery.  I truely rejoice!
    His relationship with his wife had so deteriorated..he wanted out.  Our 
    God is an AWESOME God.   Before God had restored their marriage I was
    meeting with Greg for a prayer time lunch.  I held them up in prayer
    and later Greg had come to my office.  He said he had the faith for
    God to move in this area.  In my Church, the use of 'prayer cloths'
    is common.  Greg and I both laid hold of the napkin and Greg lead in 
    prayer.  Later that I night I gave it to my friends wife.  Within 3
    months the marriage began to be restored.   This was one act of faith
    by 2 believers.  This couple was also receiving counsil from a Pastor, 
    and many people in the church body was praying and fasting.  Not to 
    forget about his wife.  Who, was steadfast in her prayer life and
    fasting.  She continued to study the word, and stood on scripture and
    believed God would move and restore their marriage!  I praise God for 
    His faithfulness, for His mighty hand, for He truely deserves ALL the 
    Glory.
    
    	Richard
    

 .72 has been hidden and returned to the author with the suggestion that
 the discussion be continued in mail.




Jim Co-mod.

    Sounds to me like the prayer's of you and your church had more to do
    with it than the prayer cloth.

Wonderful, Steve.  I've been think much the same, and you said it beautifully.

.66> 		Your biased commentary, ( tendered in a form of
   > 		humility ), totally side-steps the issue of the discussion
   > 		which is: whether the power behind this miracle was of God
   > 		- or not.  

No, Greg.  There are two issues here.  You are correct in identifying one of
them, but there is another.

It is as if several large men stormed into my office, held me down, and
stuffed an entire 12-oz rib-eye steak down my throat, all in one piece,
causing damage to my throat from the passage of such a large object.  Then
when I objected to this manner of being fed, they said I was "totally
sidestepping the issue of the discussion which is: whether you like rib-eye
steaks or not."

No, Greg, that's not the only issue.  I like rib-eye steaks, but the most
tasty food presented in such a manner is not acceptable.  Likewise, the truth
of what you say is (nearly) always obscured in your force-feeding method of
presenting it.  For you to then respond that people are a) persecuting you or
b) blaspheming the Holy Ghost because they don't like the rib eye steak
shoved down their throat is, to coin a phrase, "totally sidestepping the
issue."

>    		I know what power was behind
>    		the miracle.  It was God.  Its that simple.  Those who do
>    		not realize this are _significantly_ in error.  

In all your interactions in this notes file, I have *never* understood your
claim that everyone should just believe you, and that to even ask you a
question is to reject Christ.  For example, were I to do the same, and claim
the Lord told me directly that you were in error, would you just believe me
without any questions?  Why or why not?

Paul

    Greg you and I have history, correct?  So if I seem a little doubtful
    of your fantastic experience, what do you think your response should
    be?  To ridicule, console and put out accusations of envy or to
    see me as a weaker sister that needs encouragement?
    
    I don't believe that my words of caution are out of line, they are
    Biblical and they are pertinent to this topic.  If you don't think so,
    I will not even attempt to change your mind.  
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

    Richard,
    
    Thanks.  That's an interesting note and I'll tell you...it reminds me
    of, for instance, the woman who had been bleeding for over 12 years. 
    When she touched the fringes on His garment, it was of course *not* the
    fringes that made her whole, but, as the Master said, her *faith* had
    made her whole.  And of course, Andrew has already addressed the
    situation in Acts...
    
    What's neat, and shouldn't be lost in the "discussion" ;-), is a
    restored marriage.  There are lots of issues we could debate (and
    perhaps should from time to time), but at first glance, the fruit looks
    good, and G-d should receive the glory!
    
    Steve

 It seems to me that we are seeing an escalation here, to the point where
 notes are being aimed, with accompanying personal barbs, at specific 
 individuals.  

 We can disagree, and obviously there is considerable disagreement here,
 without resorting to personal attacks.  Please note, that the moderatorship
 may and will, return such notes to the author and delete them from the 
 conference.



 In His Love..

 Jim 

 Co-Mod

    Thanks for note .73, Richard.  It is a Great and Awesome Father we
    have.
    
    I personally also agree with Mike in .76, that it was the prayers of
    many of the believers, rather than the prayer cloth which brought the
    couple back together.  Its not the AMOUNT of faith we have, but its our
    faith in a Great and Awesome God.  He is Worthy, Worthy, Worthy to
    receive Praise and Glory and Honor.  Its really neat to see the work
    that God can do through those who have fallen.  I heard someone say
    that God will use our greatest point of weakness to bring Him the
    greatest amount of glory in our lives (He moved through several people
    who failed at one time or another in the bible.  ie Moses, Abraham,
    David, Paul, Peter, etc.).
    
    Love in Christ,
    
    Bing

    
    Jim,
    
         I for one would like to see this issue settled once and for all so
    that we dont have to keep revisiting it every time Greg puts in a new
    string.  
    
     Greg,
    
    	You dont seem to be listening nor understanding what other
    believers are trying to get across.  It causes concern.  The Body of
    Christ should be unified in thought, we may all have different
    functions but we should all have the same mind.
    
    Dan

    Greg,
    
    Leaving the prophet question alone for the moment, you seem to have
    noticed that Richard's description of the same events you described in
    .0 received a completely different reaction.
    
    I think that's the point that some are seeking to communicate with you.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Steve

    RE: .76
    
    Mike Hi,
    
    I would perfer to rejoice in the fact that God healed a broken marriage
    and gets the Glory, not say where 'credit' should go, or whose prayers
    God answered.  To me, seeing this heart felt healing can only be God's
    work.  Perhaps, just prayer and fasting would have been enough, I'm
    just glad God moved. ;)
    
    Shalom,
    	Richard
     

    
    Richard,
    
     > Perhaps, just prayer and fasting would have been enough,
    
       Interesting comment. I would agree.  It begs the question, what is
    enough? Or more appropiately, why would a physical object be needed to
    complete an answer to prayer?
    
    >I'm just glad God moved. ;)
    
      I am also! God does move in mysterious ways, and when we pray for
    something that we know by scripture is God's will, then we can also be
    all the more confident.
    
    Dan
    

    Re: .89
    
    You're so right, Richard!  Praise God for the healing!  Things happen
    when God's people pray.  I still think the "cloth" is given a little
    too much credit here though.  

    Rich,
    
    I was in the process of writing you when my network crashed.  I wanted
    to say thanks for the confirmation of testimony.  
    
    I think I need to be specific in addressing what it is about Greg's
    notes that causes *me* concern.  It's the focus on the dramatics of his
    experiences.  It's as though the experience has the focus instead of the
    fruit.  
    
    This is a red flag to me that while God may have worked inspite of the
    way Greg is writing, the way he is writing causes me to not doubt God
    but him.
    
    I'm honest here.. very honest.   I hesitate to use this word, but it
    seems as though pride is evident versus humility.  I also don't believe
    that through the Spirit of God, Greg can discern other's thoughts and
    feelings about him.  
    
    I've seen Benny Hinn two times now on channel 65 and I sense from the
    way Greg notes that he wishes to place himself on this level of
    spirituality.  It reminds me of Miss June on Romper Room with her magic
    mirror saying hello to Johnny and Jerry and Lisa and Kathy...
    
    I'd like to get past this... and I'll admit to treading lightly with
    this.  Again, if you believe and are convicted, what should your
    response to me be?
    
    The response will determine if I am edified, admonished or discouraged.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

    Greg,
    
    please read what I've written to Rich in response to his confirmation
    of testimony... perhaps I should have addressed directly to you.  I
    admit I am reserved with you because of our past interactions and
    offline mail.
    
    I don't want to see the past repeated.
    
    Thanks,
    Nancy

Sorry, but I think that bringing in the whole discussion of false prophets 
was a mistake, and I can understand why Greg felt attacked.  As I said in an
earlier reply, we all end up concentrating too much on the branch.  The are
many reasons why we so meticulously inspect the branch, and end up criticizing
it.  It could be "crooked branches" in the past, ie we've had problems with 
this person's (or similar) doctrine before, so we've become more critical.
Or it might be that we've had personal experiences that have left scars and 
sore spots.  Before we begin to criticize, we need to take a time-out to see
what our motives are.  We can't know the other person's motives, but we can
examine our own.

Greg, in an earlier note, I tried to say that I found that your note missed
the mark.  If it had been your intention to give the glory to God, then your
choice of words and phrases had only served to draw the attention onto your-
self.  There was too much of an emphasis on how it was *your* involvement
that had brought about the change, and too little mention of the other things
that were going on.  In .73 Richard did a good job of presenting the whole
story, showing that there was a lot of prayer, counsel and faith at work.

Greg, we can rejoice with you, that you too had a part in this all, but I 
personally was offended by the over emphasis given to your involvement.  As I
have read through the other replies to this note, I have noticed several things
that would have been better left unsaid, and I am disappointed by the con-
descending tone in many of your replies.

You may have a great gift from God, but you will never find a broad acceptance
of that gift if you don't learn to show more mercy, love and grace with your
words.  Sometimes we all like to claim that others are jealous, and just per-
secuting us.  But, sometimes we need to humble ourselves and realize that God
has set us in a body of believers, all with different graces and rough spots,
to help perfect us.  Remember, the hand cannot say that it has no need of the
foot.  The body of Christ needs your gifts, but your current attitude is doing
a disservice to that gifting.

Rob

Something else just hit me...tthhhhwack!... :-)

One of the problems that I see with the "faith issue", is that we forget it's
still a matter of God's grace.  That is, it's faith and grace at work, and 
not just faith alone.  I know that most of us have struggled with the problem
of, "why doesn't everyone that believes get healed?"  I know that many "faith"
practitioners will find fault with the person seeking the healing, ie they
just didn't have enough faith, there's hidden sin, or even (gasp!) demonic
influences.

Part of the reason for this phenomenon is that we see faith as the key, which
is correct, but we miss the door.  We assume that faith is the absolute, and
final, answer, but it's not.  Faith is a key to the grace of God, which means
that God remains God.  Our problem is: we see God as a puppet attached to the
strings of our faith, dancing awkwardly as we pull this way, or that.

It is by God's grace, as a direct result of His Word being made alive by the
Holy Spirit in our hearts, that we have faith at all.  And it is this gift of
faith, wrought by God Himself, that gives us access again to His grace.  He's 
not a puppet, He's the sovereign Lord.

I can hear the objections from some right now.  They'll insist that God has
promised us healing, and we have a right, by faith, to demand, even command
it.  They might even say that there is no biblical basis for prayers of the
form: "God, if it be your will..."  Because, for them, God's Will is clear.
But, I don't want to argue with anyone about the method of prayer, all I want
to do is emphasize the source of grace.

The next time you have the faith to command healing, do it!  But, remember, it
was God's grace that gave you that faith, and His grace that responded to it.

When faith didn't seem to work, return to the throne of Grace.  Anyone can 
pick the other person apart and blame them for the failure.  But the man of
God will pick the person up and point him back to God's grace.  Through God's
grace we will either receive the strength to stand in spite of the circum-
stances, or our faith will be renewed to overcome them.

Rob

    I've just read this whole topic from .1 to .95 and I find it one of the
    most unedifying experiences of my christian walk (maybe I'm going a bit
    OTT saying this, but if I was a non-christian reading this I would see
    nothing to draw me to Jesus).
    
    I can see that satan has, once again, used christians to knock at other
    christians to bring them down and divide the body. Pride has been
    bruised, high horses have been climbed on and Jesus has not been
    glorified in most of the notes here. I'm no saint and I know that I
    often respond to other peoples comments in a bad way and end up causing
    hurt, but the way of love is to forgive other people when they hurt you
    (and if you forgive you don't bother bringing up that fact again
    [especially in the view of a host of others]). 
    
    There will always be a difference of opinions within the church until
    the day we're all taken up into Glory, so why don't we just accept that
    and start loving each other. Let's show the world that we belong to
    Jesus because of the love we have for each other (to be honest I found
    some of the more scathing retorts extremely disturbing).
    
    The Bible says (sorry I can't find the reference at the moment) that so
    long as the Gospel of Jesus Christ is preached it doesn't matter what
    the motive is. Jesus said not to criticise a man who was casting out
    demons in His name but was not a disciple - "whoever is not against me
    is for me" (sorry again if I have misquoted). 
    
    I'm not going to commit to supporting one side  or the other in this
    argument partly because I'm not totally sure where I stand
    theologically on this and partly because it is likely to put someones
    nose out of joint if I did express an opinion.  
    
    We must be careful what we say to each other, especially iff we know
    non-christians are looking on. I would imaging satan has been reading
    this topic with a wide grin on his face.
    
    If I've offended anyone here I'm sorry, I hope that my words come
    across the way I feel them (I know that we often write what we think is
    sound, but it turns out to be received in totally the wrong way). 
    
    True love covers over a multitude of sins. I've probably got more to
    say but I keep getting interrupted and losing track of where I'm at.
    
    God bless you all, let's get some topics going that really lift up
    Jesus and show the world how wonderful He is.
    
    Ben

	re: .98


	Great NOTE! It says it all. 


Glen

I apologize, Greg, for not being more specific.  You have not specifically
used the title of Prophet in reference to yourself.  But you have
consistently and repeatedly, in this string and in previous strings, insisted
that your words were God's words, and that to question them was to reject God.

It is the role of the prophet to speak God's words.  So though you have not
applied the title to yourself, I believe you HAVE claimed the role.

And thank you, Ben for your observation about the utterly unedifying nature
of the progression of this note.  It is a sad truth that being saved by Grace
does not finish the process of recreating us in His image.  Our worldly
selves have come through in a big way throughout this discussion, and I'm not
pointing fingers, I'll include myself in that characterization. 

Paul

Re 
536.99 � I have not seen you writing here for years.  I thought you went
536.99 � with the first transistion package!   I still remember way back around
536.99 � '88? when you were having dreams about Seabrook becoming another
536.99 � Chernobyl.  If I remember correctly, ( though I have not seen you here
536.99 � for awhile ), some folks kind of beat you up for it.   I think they
536.99 � sort of depicted you as sort of like an eerie space traveler from out
536.99 � of the twilight zone, touching down to communicate with mere
536.99 � earthlings. Yep... I sure remember that... 

That was a bad lapse of memory, Greg!  Bob has always been a well respected
and loved member of the conference, since he was noting in early 1989.  His
alert about the Seabrook dream was in ATLANA::CHRISTIAN_V4 note 117.0 (30-May
1990), and was entered on his behalf by Irena Pulkstenis.  In the ensuing
discussion, the warning was well accepted, and applied in private prayer by
many, if I read it aright.  Bob himself was able to join the discussion later
on 1-Jun-1989, in reply 117.10 .

I would recommend you to peruse the discussion if you are in doubt - there are
only 19 replies, and it is good supportive input.  Careful, naturally, but 
supportive.

In another discussion on the prophetic role (note 37, also in
ATLANA::CHRISTIAN_V4, one person came in with strong claims at reply .20 which
was, I think, the only significantly dissident voice.  Even so, I do not think
your description of Bob as being viewed as an eerie space traveler from out of
the twilight zone etc, or as being beaten up, has any foundation unless it was
your own personal impression... 

Just to set the record straight, so you don't leave Bob in an anomalous 
position!

							God bless
								Andrew

When you once again sidestep the issues that are raised, and manage to "get
your digs in" in the process of accepting an apology, it becomes clear that
the possibility of any fruit from this discussion is very slim indeed.

Paul

�Thankyou for the specific and exact reference to the date-time-subject; and
�your opinion about that _one_ note. 

Hi Greg,

You're welcome.  It stood out in my memory as significant for a number of 
reasons, and we were very sorry that Bob moved on shortly after.  It has 
been good to see him back again.

btw - not sure which note you meant by '_one_', but I won't inquire, as it 
looks loaded ;-)

						love
							Andrew

    re: .104
    
    Greg,
    
    I read the string that Andrew referenced.  His opinion was completely
    accurate regarding the *one* note in which Bob's dream about
    Seabrook was shared.  You remembered that *one* note as being an
    experience for Bob of being sort of "beat up" for sharing his dream. 
    Your memory is not at all supported by the string Andrew referenced.
    
    Greg, do you see the pattern people (or should I say, the L-rd
    *through* His people) are (is) trying to show you?
    
    Bob shared what he believed to be a prophetic dream and received what
    seems to be genuine concern and supportive prayer.  Richard shared his
    testimony of the same event you described in .0 and evoked
    praised-filled responses (praised aimed at the L-rd).
    
    How do you think Bob and Richard (and others) have presented their
    stories differently than you have; and is that difference significant?
    
    What do you think, Greg?
    
    Steve

    Shalom,
    
    Not to divert this testimony of faith, but I am complelled to tell why 
    I believe that an anointing on a prayer cloth can be used for healing.
    We all can see how God used Paul with this gift.  He could not be every
    where so he anointed prayer aprons and sent them out.  Now for where my
    faith is coming from.  In 1960 I was born.  I was classified as a
    miracle baby.  My mother is a large women who had gained over 50 lbs
    during her pregnacy.  She was a heavy smoker also.  When I was born,
    I had servere respitory complications.  I had a large amount of fluid
    in my lungs.  My mother was in labor 59 hours.  When I was born, they 
    didn't bring me to my mother, I stayed in intensive care.  The doctors 
    had told my father it doesn't look like I will live.  My father went
    home and called my great grand mother and told her.  She had called up
    Oral Roberts and Rex Humbard's prayer phone number.  They had just
    started an online prayer family.  Oral Roberts had sent an prayer cloth
    which he had anointed with oil and prayer.  She had received it in 2
    days.  My father pinned it to my blanket after holding it against me
    and prayed for mercy and healing.  Notice a lot of prayer had went on,
    plus both prayer families had agreement in prayer.  The very next
    morning the doctors brought me in to my mother with the doctors
    scratching their heads.  Since my great grand mothers passing away I 
    have received the original letters that had transpired between Oral
    Roberts and Rex Humbard, along with the red prayer cloth.  My parents
    had always given God the glory.  
    
    Richard

Richard,

Thanks for that testimony, which gives such vivid reality to verses like 
Psalm 22:9 :
 	"Yet You brought me out of the womb, 
	 you made me trust in You even at my mothers breast..."

Our God is gracious and faithful indeed!

							Andrew

    re: .110
    
    Ok, Greg - what say we agree to disagree on our perceptions of Bob's
    reception in the string Andrew pointed out to us.  Everyone perceives
    things differently to a degree...
    
    How about the latter part of my questions in .108 - do you want to
    pursue those questions?
    
    Steve

      Hi,
    
        I really thought .63 was an excellent reply and one that anyone
        can gain edification from.
    
        Thanks Steve!
    
                                                     Tony

   Hi All,

   Perhaps we _all_ should keep in mind the thought contained in the
   title of the latest Wayne Watson song being played on Christian radio:

	"Say What You Say Out Of Love And Compassion"

   In Christ,

	Ron

>     <<< Note 536.120 by ATLANA::SHERMAN "Debt Free! Thank You, Jesus!" >>>

>   Perhaps we _all_ should keep in mind the thought contained in the
>   title of the latest Wayne Watson song being played on Christian radio:

>	"Say What You Say Out Of Love And Compassion"

    Amen, brother.

    Another of his off the same release that I like goes something like;

	God ain't gonna stay in that little box I put Him in!

    Ron