Conference yukon::christian_v7

Tithing is [also] discussed in Notes 242 and 403.

>			In conclusion, my belief on tithing is that it
>	is strictly an Old Covenant Law.  It no longer applies to the
>	New Covenant. 

Believe it or not, I can buy this.  However, show me one instance where
Christ in the New Covenant called for LESS than what the law required.

Example: It was wrong under the old covenant to commit adultery ...
         ...but under the new covenant, it was wrong to lust, also.

Example: It was wrong under the old covenant to commit murder...
         ...but under the new covenant, it was wrong to hate your brother, also.

From old to new there is not dismissal of the old, but instead there is
a fulfillment of it.  Remember that Christ did not come to destroy the
law but to fulfill it.

You are correct to say that we should not be in bondage to a figure - but 
there is nothing wrong with using that figure as a basis from which to 
determine in our hearts what to give God.

You are also right that our lives are a bit more complex, with mortgages
and bills, benefits, escrow, etc, which makes it difficult for us to determine 
what a tenth would actually be.  However, the >principle< of the tithe remains
(because the law is not destroyed but fulfilled - from action to attitude;
and from letter of the law to spirit of the law).  And what is the spirit of
law regarding the tithe?  

Mark

    I remember the words of a song which was written by the late Keith
    Green.
    
    To obey, is better than sacrifice, I don't need your money,
    I want your life and I can't help thinking of how it will be...if 
    you keep on ignoring my plea.
    
    God wants our heart, once He has that, everything else falls into
    place.
    
    Maranatha...  

    How does a church survive without tithes?

    What was the purpose of your note Greg?  To add to the discussion or to
    insult?

Thanks, Greg at least for your positive perception of Baptists, in the 
expectation of them being near the top!  As it is, someone has to stay at 
the bottom to support all the others...... :-(

Though actually I suspect that amongst the wide variety of baptist
churches, some would be found in each band of the spectrum ...

								Andrew

    Gregg: I think that was a cheap shot.
    
    Sylvain

    Not so much cheap as hard up - at least in my Church :-) 
    Some of us tithe, some of us don't feel that they can commit
    themselves at the moment. 
    My minister always points out that it isn't just money that God wants
    us to tithe. How many of us can stand up to the challenge of tithing
    our time, for example?

    Good point Julie:  I would have to agree, tithing time is probably more
    difficult than tithing finances. 
    Sylvain
    

    Im sorry Gregg, I didnt realize you were joking. 
    
    

    /Greg,
    
    You apologized to Sylvain, but I must ask you as not only a participant
    but also as a moderator to steer these discussions away from personal
    insult.  As a Baptist, your comment was taken as a personal insult.
    
    Thank you,
    Nancy

    Well, it seems as though we had a note crash.  Thanks for your honesty. 
    I do understand why you made your comment.
    
    The truth is my church takes in just over $1m per year in tithes and
    offerings.... we run an average of 1600 per week at church.  Only 10%
    of the church tithe.  Of the 160, 16 people give more than the rest.
    
    We have over 500 givers in the church... Now how do we know who is
    tithing and who isn't... by numbers.  If a person gives only $300 per
    year, that means they are only making $3000.00 per year... this just
    isn't likely to be true..
    
    BTW, the Baptist church does teach 10% tithe + offerings.  The
    offerings are your sacrifice to God, the 10% is due him... which btw,
    contrary to what many believe in here, I believe is scriptural.
    
    I do believe that tithing is between you and God.. and that will be
    reconciled on judgement day.  
    
    Tithing is not as simple as we make it, because the attitude behind the
    giving is as important as the giving.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

    Thank-you for that. I agree strongly. Tithing is NOT an option.
    And the attitude in giving is key. My view is if you cant give
    cheerfully--then dont give at all. Tithing is not only our obligation
    as children of God, it is also an expression of our faith in God to
    accomplish what his word says in Malachi 3.
    Tithing is not a slot machine,where you deposit 10% and expect to
    receive 100 fold.  Its an offering to our Lord for his faithfulness
    and goodness in our lives.Im glad to see that you also know that.:-))
    
    Sylvain                  

    MAT 5:42
    MAT 6:19-24
    LUK 6:30 
    LUK 12:31-34
    1COR 16:1-2
    2COR 8:7
    PHI 4:15-19
    1TI 6:18

    
    
    

| <<< Note 531.23 by IMTDEV::KORALTAN >>>


| -< MONEY, MONEY, MONEY... >-

	Isn't that a song by ABBA!!??


Glen

    I thought KC and the Sunshine band did that one... 

| <<< Note 531.25 by CSOA1::LEECH "I understand the black flame." >>>



| I thought KC and the Sunshine band did that one...

	ABBA did. I have the cd... :-)  KC took one song tune and made mega
hits with it using different words each time it was released... :-)


Glen

Hi Sylvain,

I agree with you. I have tried not tithing and have experienced consequences
from it. It is like the Lord says - "Go ahead and try it on your own for a
while" and then I start having financial problems. The car breaks down etc. 
With me, he uses the CAR to get my attention. I have been married for 14 years
and he has always provided. It has been tough at times, but during those times
he has blessed us - showing us he loves us. I have been to the point of not
having enough money to fill up the oil tank for the winter or a car has died.
Each time he has come through in love. 

It would be much easier not to tithe, but why go through life being 
disobedient - making money more important than God or making it equal
with God. If we concentrate on how much we are giving(10% is quite abit of money
for most of us to give!!) rather than the obedience of it, then it is a problem.

Tithing is brain-boggling to the world. They never will understand it. I believe
all the discension with giving to the church is another scheme of the devil
to keep us from being obedient. Give to God not man!! 

Sylvain, I definitely do not have it all together on this issue, but I can
discern that this IS what God wants us to do.

Have a great day,

Steve

�Tithing is brain-boggling to the world. They never will understand it. 

Right on, Steve.  Just once I had an interview with the bank manager, whose
only aim seemed to be to wring more money out of me under the pretence of
providing for anticipated expences.  All he could point to in my budget was
what the church got, and he just couldn't understand why that was inviolate.
Communication just seemed to stop there. 

							Andrew

    Steve,
    
    Your note said it all.  I would agree that tithing is mind boggling. 
    It's amazing to me that many of the families that *do* tithe in our
    church are the families that have the miracles in their lives.  It's
    rather incredible to see there unlikely situations be God manifested.
    
    Tithing is only legalistic when it is required by an institution or
    a self inflicted attitude of grievous giving.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

    A further thought...
    
    I'm doing my bills..
    
    Uhmmm I think I'll pay the bank $525 this month even though my house
    payment is $1200.  And the electric bill is $80, I'll give them $30.
    
    

    
    > Uhmmm I think I'll pay the bank $525 this month even though my house
    >  payment is $1200.  And the electric bill is $80, I'll give them
    >  $30.
     
     I dont like that analogy, it seems to say we owe God our 10%.  Tithing
    is an exercise in obedience. So that we may p[artake in the many
    blessings that God has in store for us. It is giving 10% so that we can
    learn how to give 100%.  IF you cant give God 10% of your money, how
    can you give God 100% of yourself?  AFter all Job tells us that all we
    are and all we have ultimately belong to God, that is of course if we
    through realizing that, will give it back.
    
    Dan   

    Thanks for the expansion of the analogy...  I really like it!
    
    The problem lies in the fact that our tithe should be our first
    obligation to be paid.  I have not always been good at doing this...
    somehow God seems like the S&L to me.  That is what I've been under
    conviction about.

    tithe = firstfruits
    
    When Steve and I started to tithe, like most others, we found it hard.
    We were under financial strain because of a large mortgage and credit
    card bills.  It was like, "we can barely make ends meet now, how can we
    give the church $xxx per week?"  We always wrote the tithe check out
    first to make sure God was given his due first.  It was tight sometimes, 
    but there was always enough left to pay the bills and we never fell 
    behind - I think it made us better stewards of our money and while we
    still have a way to go (as far as how wisely or frivolously we spend
    the 'discretionary' part of our income), we have made progress.  He has
    since blessed us with a new (old) home with a significantly lower
    mortgage.  The amazing thing is that the new home has more 'things'
    (swimming pool, dishwasher, etc.) than our last home did!  I think
    people who tithe often find that, while material possessions are not
    the motivation for doing so, God will bless tham
    financially/materially.  I think it shows we are good stewards of what
    He has given us and "those who are faithful in little, shall be
    faithful in much".  I think it also ties in with the parable of the 3
    servants whose master went away and entrusted them with his money
    expecting them to HANDLE IT WISELY.  The two who did were rewarded, the
    one who did not was not rewarded.
    
    Tithing is now not a chore/burden, but a joy.  I want to do my part and 
    contribute to the Lord's work - it is a good feeling.
    
    Karen

    Are you poking fun at God's word? Those are not my commets about money
    and tithing...they are God's.
    
    Maranatha.

    Thanks for you advice 1TH 5::11
    
    Maranatha...

    Hi,
    
    Personally, I have a testimony that tithing is a commandment given to
    us by God.  Malachi 3:10 is rather explicit on this.  Personally, I 
    think that it applies to both the Old *and* New Covenants.  In my 
    church, we are asked to pay 10% of our gross income.  I do - and feel
    that I have a received a number of blessings as a result of this.
    
    The reason I pay tithing is not really because it is a commandment
    or that I have a testimony that I have received many blessings as
    a direct result of paying tithing, rather, I feel that it is my way
    of showing my Heavenly Father my gratitude for the many blessings
    He has bestowed upon me.  Every breath I take is a blessing from 
    God.  Others include job, family, health, etc.  I think that 10%
    of my gross (plus other offerings) is one small way that I can
    show Him that I am thankful for the blessings He has given me.
    Another way is to try to live His commandments and to try my
    best to follow the example of our Saviour - Jesus Christ.
    
    Best Regards (and have a great weekend!),
    
    
    Frank