Conference yukon::christian_v7

    What specifically is the question?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

Navarre Bible Commentary, Matthew 10:34-37:

Our Lord has not come to bring a false and earthly peace -- the sort of
tranquility the self-seeking person yearns for; he wants us to struggle
against our own passions and against sin and its effects.  The sword he
equips us with for this struggle is, in the words of Scripture, "the
sword of the Spirit which is the word of God" (Eph 6:17), "lively and
active, sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing to the division of
soul and spirit, of joints and marrow, and discerning the thoughts and
intentions of the heart" (Heb 4:12).

The word of God in fact leads to these divisions mentioned here.  It can
lead, even within families, to those who embrace the faith being regarded
as enemies by relatives who resist the word of truth.  This is why our
Lord goes on (Mt 10:37) to say that nothing should come between him and
his disciple -- not even father, mother, son, or daughter: any and every
obstacle (cf Mt 5:29-30) must be avoided.

Obviously these words of Jesus do not set up any opposition between the
[second] and [fifth] commandments (love for God above all things and love
for one's parents): he is simply indicating the order of priorities.  We
should love God with all our strength (cf. Mt 22:37), and make a serious
effort to be saints; and we should also love and respect -- in theory and
in practice -- the parents God has given us; they have generously cooperated
with the creative power of God in bringing us into the world and there is so
much that we owe them.  But love for our parents should not come before love
of God; usually there is no reason why these two loves should clash, but if
that should ever happen, we should be quite clear in mind and in heart about
what Jesus says here.  He has in fact given us an example to follow on this
point: "How is it that you sought me? Did you not know that I must be in my
Father's house?" (Lk 2:49) -- his reply when, as a youth, Mary and Joseph
found him in the Temple of Jerusalem after a long search.  This event in
Our Lord's life is a guideline for every Christian -- parent or child.
Children should learn from it that their affection for their parents
should never come before their love for God, particularly when our Creator
asks us to follow him in a way which implies special self-giving on our
part; parents should take the lesson that their children belong to God in
the first place, and therefore he has a right to do with them what he
wishes, even if this involves sacrifice, even heroic sacrifice.  This
teaching of Our Lord asks us to be generous and to let God have his way.
In fact, however, God never lets himself be outdone in generosity.  Jesus
has promised a hundredfold gain, even in this life, and later on eternal
life (cf Mt 19:29), to those who readily respond to his holy will.

Faculty of Theology, the University of Navarre.

>I could not reconcile the verses with Christian doctrine.

The verses ARE Christian doctrine.

/john

    .2  is a good commentary.   Thanks John!
    
    
    

	I love to think of them at dawn
	Beneath the frail pink sky,
	Casting their nets in Galilee
	And fish-hawks circling by.

	Casting their nets in Galilee
	Just off the hills of brown
	Such happy, simple fisherfolk
	Before the Lord came down.

	Contented, peaceful fishermen,
	Before they ever knew
	The peace of God that filled their hearts
	Brimful and broke them too.

	Young John who trimmed the flapping sail
	Homeless in Patmos died.
	Peter, who hauled the teeming net,
	Head down was crucified.

	The peace of God, it is no peace,
	But strife sowed in the sod.
	Yet brothers pray for but one thing --
	The marvelous peace of God!

				-- William Alexander Percy
				   "Enzio's Kingdom and Other Poems", 1924

    Peace of Christ is within, not without.

Hello Marcos,

Your verses concern two distinct situations.  The  first three :
Luke 12:51:	Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, 
		Nay: but rather divisison.

Matthew 10-34:	Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not 
		to send peace but a sword.

Matthew 10-35:	For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and
		the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law 
		against her mother in law.

These are about the natural results of conflicting forms of government.

Until Jesus came and died for us, He could not dwell within mankind.  Once 
there was the possibility of a man's heart of rebellion being displaced by 
the Holy Spirit reinging, you have a new species of man, with allegiance to
the eternal God.  Aliens on earth (Hebrews 11:13-16, 1 Peter 2:11... John
17:14).  People generally react against aliens.  Especially aliens who look
the same on the outside, and *especially* aliens they think they know are
'only' their own kin.  Hence the particular hatred that is inevitably going
to arise .... 


Its the same sort of thing as a prophet's rejection by his own countrymen 
being inevitable - as in Matthew 13:57 :
  "And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is 
   not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house."

Mark 6:4 
  "But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in
   his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house."

Luke 4:24 
  "And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his
   own country."

John 4:44 
  "For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honour in his
   own country."

   ==================================================================

Your other reference was :
Luke 14-26: 
	"If any man come to me, and hate not his father, and mother, and
	 wife, and children and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own 
	 life also, he cannot be my disciple."

This is not referring to outward conflict, but to devotion.

The Roman Caesars demanded worship.  Included in the job spec was the title 
of 'god'.  This was not a unique godship, but just one to be added on top 
of the pile of whatever gods the conquered nation happened to have.  On the 
basis that the Romans had won.

Jesus' principle above is that He is truly God.  For someone to be truly 
His disciple, allegiance to anyone else must take a totally second place.
ie, the claims of father, mother, wife, children, brethren, sisters etc are
not to override the claims fo the LORD.  None of them has the right to make
you deny Christ.  In fact, not even your _own_ personal desires, appetites
or needs are valid reasons to set aside God's claims on the Christian. 

'Love' is an absolute.  There is only truly room in the heart for one 
spouse.  that is the elevated position God calls us to.  In comparison, 
everyone else is 'hated', though once His love is within, they are loved to 
a degreee previously impossible.

If this sounds harsh, it is meant to.  It is so that the would-be disciple 
realises what he is letting himself in for.  Realises the significance of 
following Christ; the sacrifice of self to His will; the cost of receiving 
the very nature of God.

If it sounds cruel, it is because we easily overlook that we are placed in
our natural relationships by God.  He has put us in our families, and cares 
for them *more* than we know how to.  There are complex principles involved 
here which I haven't time to spell out, but putting 'family before God' in 
the world's sense, gives the family a false sense of their own and God's 
relative position, which would stand in the way of their salvation - the 
most important need of their lives.  Putting God first lets His love live 
through us to them.  Putting them (family, etc) first, limits what they can 
receive to our strength, which is puny by comparison.

I hope this us of help ...

 						God bless
 							Andrew

    Hi,
    
    Which doctrines conflict with these Scriptures?  Please provide some
    specifics to help focus the responses.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

    .10
    
    If that is your question, can you comment on what's already been
    submitted?

>Secondly it's commonly claimed that Christianity is a doctrine of love but
>the verses say it's of hate. To hate one's family is pre-requisite to be a
>disciple.

Well, I think .2 adequately explains this.

God is first priority; family is second.

/john

  The same God who wrote john 3:16 wrote the Book of Revelation.

  The peace which passes understanding is available TODAY

  Tomorrow... ???

  There is a time and a season...

  hank 

Hello Marcos,

The Bible lays down as a basis thath the world - mankind - is in rebellion. 
In a rebellion there cannot be a superficial peace.

In a lot of situations words are used ambiguously to give an appearence of 
peace when there is none.  Throughout the Bible, God is teaching mankind 
what He is like.  He is unique.  He is the source and cause of our being.  
Outside Him, any 'peace' is rootless and doomed.  Inside Him, there is 
conflict in the transition, but that is the only place to be.  

� the verses say it's of hate. To hate one's family is pre-requisite ...
'hate' in this context is the only [comparative] alternative to love.
Love which takes a second place is not love, it is hate, by comparison.
We can only love them with His love, not with ours.  The word 'hate' is 
used to give total emphasis; to underline the complete transfer of 
allegiance.

							Andrew

Suggest a title change (perhaps: Division a Christian doctrine? or something
better).

Please delete this note, when read, Mods.

      Hi Marcos,
    
        I haven't read all the replies, but since we're talking swords
        here I'd like to take a 'stab' at it!
    
        Hebrews says the sword is the word of God.  The word of God
        personified is Christ.  When you've seen Christ, you've seen
        the Father.  The full coming of the sword equates to a certain
        fulness of an expression of the love of God.
    
        There is a certain reality God will not circumvent and that is
        the light (the sword) is come into the world and men love darkness
        rather than the light.  Everyone that does evil HATES the light.
        (See John 3:19,20).
    
        Jesus came to declare the Father's character all the while He knows
        that should one be an instrument through which His love (His
        'sword') flows there would be enmity.  The reason for the enmity is
        because that light is a rebuke for all who love the darkness.  The 
        brighter the light, the greater the rebuke.  If the light is bright
        enough, the sword pierces even to the utmost recesses (the marrow) 
        of the heart.
    
        When Jesus was on earth, He radiated so much love that those that
        rejected His way couldn't stand to be around Him.  His light just
        revealed how pathetic and evil they were in contrast.  The response
        to this is that those that love darkness did all they could to 
        destroy the light.
    
        Right now, we are lukewarm Laodicaeans (see Rev 3:14-22).  Not a
        whole lot of light.  The day will come when God's people see Him
        so well that their faith (which works by love - Gal. 5:6) will
        deepen and they will correspondingly get brighter.
    
        And the same thing will happen.  The perfection of the last day
        remnant will usher in the mark of the beast movement.  God's last
        day people will be a sword that pierces to the recesses of any-
        one's heart and those that love darkness will ultimately seek the
        life on those that love the light.
    
        It all boils down to free will and God needing to demonstrate
        something in the last days.  Given free will and the course of some
        to refuse His way of love and the course of others to choose
        His way of love, the reality cannot be escaped that when the light
        gets very bright, the darkness can't stand to be around it and 
        will do anything to get rid of it.
    
        This is the division, the enmity.  This is why there is sometimes
        enmity between father and son, etc.  The enmity arises from some
        loving the light and others loving darkness.
    
                                                     God Bless,
               
                                                     Tony

      re: .2
    
      Hi John,
    
        I do not believe that just because there is division between
        relations, we are called to no longer love them.  The sword
        may have caused division between a person and his father.  This
        does not mean we ever stop loving our father.
    
      re: ??
    
      Hi Andy,
    
        I won't get into it, but I disagree with your statement that 
        before the cross one could not be indwelt with the presence of
        God.  Perhaps the indwelling was less intense often because so
        much of God's character was veiled to so many because the cross
        had not happened yet, but this does not imply that God was not
        in the hearts of the faithful.
    
        God dwelt in Abraham's heart.  Abraham was faithful to God and
        it was imputed to him for righteoussness.  Christ is our right-
        eoussness and thus Christ dwelt in the heart of Abraham.  Abraham
        saw Christ's day and was glad.
    
                                                        Tony

      Correction: I meant to say accounted (not imputed) to him
                  for righteoussness.

Hello Tony (you meant me?) 

I think you must have missed my point.  I agree with your second paragraph,
of course, but your first appears to address something else... 

Time has blurred my memory of our history here, but the connectin between
the incarnation and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is that Jesus is the
Baptiser in the Holy Spirit (cf John 1:33), and until He had completed His
work on earth, His followers could not fill the Christian (John 16:8). 

Jesus' blood prepares us for that in a way which was not available to the 
Old Testament saints.  They had meny deep revelations, and special fillings 
for a task, but not the identification which the Christian should 
experience.

						God bless
							Andrew