Conference yukon::christian_v7

I have to take issue with this statement of George Carey :
� Mainstream Christianity treats other religions with respect and
� allows that God can be known and is known by men and women of non-Christian
� faiths.  We do not deny that in the higher religions of mankind there are
� glimpses of the divine.

This implies compromise with idolatry.  The "particularity" of the gospel
is not just that we meet God wholly in Jesus.  The offense of the gospel is
that God can be met in NO OTHER way.  This means that all other worship is
idolatry.  We should treat *people* with respect, regardless of their
belief or stance; 'other religions' is another matter entirely.  They
should be shunned as subtle or unsubtle attempts of the devil to divert man
from salvation. 

Since taking position at Canterbury, GC's stance has increasingly been
perceived as one of social and political compromise, rather than that of 
representing the gospel faithfully.  Should he declare all non-Christian 
religion as demonic, he would lose political influence.  So he compromises 
on Christianity instead.  England is an apostate nation.  Not that we were
ever a 'nation of Christians', but that an earlier lip-service to Christain
standards, morals, and even acknowledgement of God, in matters of
government, has been reversed, and laws are introduced today to reverse 
that standard.  That is the circle in which GC moves.

Presumably by 'Mainstream', GC is still thinking in terms of the declining
organ of the C of E, rather than of the clear expression of the Word of
God.  John, I don't mean to direct this at you or your church.  But I am
not satisfied to ignore blatant humanism presented as Christianity. I take
this as the expression of an individual rather than as the belief of his
denomination. 

 "Jesus answered "I am the way, the truth and the life.  
		  No-one comes to the Father except through Me"
							John 14:6

 "Salvation is found in no-one else, for there is no other name 
  under heaven given to men by which we must be saved."
							Acts 4:12

 "For no-one can lay any foundation other than the one already laid, which 
  is Christ Jesus."

 "...when the LORD Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with His 
  powerful angels.  He will puinish those who do not know our God and do 
  not obey the gospel of our LORD Jesus."
							2 Thessalonians 1:7-8

 "There is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ
  Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all men - the testimony given in 
  its proper time."
							1 Timothy 2:5


The fact that Paul siezed upon the confession of a loophole in the Athenian
belief in no way equates their general idol-worship with any knowledge of
God.  He immediately clarifies that he is speaking ofg our unique Creator,
Who is totally distinct from any of their idols (Acts 17:24...29), and that
with revelation of this truth comes responsibility to repent, before
judgement (:30-31). 

Separation from idol worship continued to be an important and sensitive 
issue, as instanced in 1 Corinthinas 8.


						God bless
								Andrew 

>This implies compromise with idolatry.  The "particularity" of the gospel
>is not just that we meet God wholly in Jesus.  The offense of the gospel is
>that God can be met in NO OTHER way.  This means that all other worship is
>idolatry.

So Judaism is idolatry?

I always thought it was just incomplete.

/john

Acknowledging the truth amid profound errors in other religions, and speaking
against any compromise in the scandal of particularity, several of the
bishops of the Episcopal Church together with clergy and laity have issued
a call to Apostolic Mission.  This is an extract from that statement:

   While the world's religions and philosophies undoubtedly contain truths
   amid their profound errors, we believe that Jesus is the full revelation
   of God, that all persons need to come to know Him and to receive His
   forgiveness and be conformed to His image.  In and through the Gospel Jesus
   both critiques, corrects, and supplements all of our partial views and
   convictions.  "There is no other name given under Heaven whereby men must
   be saved."  Therefore, we are to be His witnesses to all persons, locally,
   regionally, nationally, and internationally.

Hi John,

I'm not quite sure what you meant in .3 - how do you equate my statement
to exclude Judaism? 

The way of worship that God gave to Israel was by the sacrifices which 
anticipated that of the LORD Jesus Christ.  That was the way that God gave, 
which applied their faith in advance, to offer worship via Jesus' sacrifice.

You could regard it as 'incomplete', just as a youth is an incomplete adult...

								Andrew

re .5

And I think that's exactly what Cantuar is saying in .0.  Other _higher_
religions (he doesn't list them; he certainly would exclude those that
deny the existence of the One God who created all things or those that
are explicitly evil) contain bits of truth, ways to begin to know God,
but that only through Jesus Christ can God be truly and fully known.

/john

� he certainly would exclude those that deny the existence of the One God 
� who created all things or those that are explicitly evil) 

That is not what he implies, nor the way he intends to be understood by the
world - I presume, or he would have been careful to word it very
differently.  Can you think of any 'other' religion which would be included
in this, other than Judaism?  By strong implication, at the very least, he
is representing compromise or worse.  His generality effectively makes
people feel that whatever their position, they are spiritually secure, in
conflict with what the gospel teaches. 

								Andrew 

I would certainly include Islam.

Though full of error, they believe in the God of Abraham, believe that
Jesus was a prophet, and believe in submission to the will of God.
(Islam means submission.)  They don't seem to be much different than
Jehovah's Witnesses.

Just like the Jews, they cannot fully know God unless they come to
know and believe in the particularity of Jesus.

Some Native American religions contain bits of truth about God.

But all except Christianity are partial and fraught with error.  Christians
must evangelize all non-Christians and bring them to the fullness of Truth.

/john

    Good topic, a key topic that we need to deal with in today's culture.  
    
    Framed differently, today diversity is embraced.  This spills over in
    the religious arena to read, "tolerance".  So, how would Jesus respond? 
    Certainly not with some waffling answer - "there may be truth elsewhere,
    etc."  But also certainly not in an unloving way.  
    
    For example, with Islam, which explicitly denies Jesus' divinity.  They
    seem to worship the same God, but by denying that Jesus is God, how can
    this be true?  They are unable to worship Jesus as God.
      
    I would try to respond as Jesus would, which was to proclaim the truth when
    ever possible, not waffle, but usually in a loving way.  His confrontations
    were carefully chosen, usually confronting hypocrisy within His own
    church.  Also, He continuously worked hard to build up those who
    believed in Him, equipping them to know Him more fully.

That's precisely the compromise GC implied.  Bear in mind that although 
Islam believes that Jesus is returning to judge the world, it does *not* 
believe that He died on the cross.  It teaches that Judas was substituted 
instead.  It denies Jesus' deity, and relegates him as the prophet of a 
lesser revelation than Mohammed.  In spite of the teaching of the Koran, 
Christians are terribly persecuted in Islamic countries.

To imply that Islam is merely an incomplete revelation of Christianity 
misses the point totally, and represents 'another gospel', as in Galatians 
1:9.

						Andrew

                                Great note!!!!

    .8
    
    What is the difference between Islam and Muslim?

�    What is the difference between Islam and Muslim?

	Islam is the religion, Muslim, or Moslem is the person
like
	Christianity	and	Christian

							Andrew

      Hi,
    
        I only read the first 5 replies, but if I understand correctly,
        I have a different posture than you do Andrew.
    
        No religion has all the light there is to have.  No religion 
        is 100% devoid of idolatry in the way you seem to apply it.
        That is some religion that has some error and thus to some degree
        is not worshipping in truth.
    
        To cut the chase...
    
        ANY religion in which even the creative word of God can be
        responded to by faith has some aspect of it (miniscule though it
        may be) that is truth and is not idolatry.
    
        Jesus Christ is the Creator and any faith response to the God
        the Creator is a faith-response to Christ is a faith response to
        truth.
    
                                                      Tony
    

Hi Tony,

    We're trying to look at it from the Biblical perspective, rather than
    just from personal opinions.

								Andrew