Conference yukon::christian_v7

I've come to realize that we are poor ignorant slobs, most of us.
The fact is that we don't know much and what we do know, we take 
beyond its original intent.  Ignorance is curable and truth is
verifiable.

Jesus is the truth and Jesus is verifiable.  You may not be able to 
put him into a test tube, but we do have the "Professor's records"
so we can study those.  (Of course, all this is predicated on believing
the Bible to be true, so those who believe otherwise need not apply.
For proving the Bible, see note mumble-mumble.)

Another axiom says that a little education is very dangerous.  What this 
means is that one can take a piece of the truth out of context and operate
on that incomplete truth.  John Covert has illustrated this with his
"sound bite Christianity" topic.  An example is quoting "the wages of 
sin is death."  True!  But there is more!  "but the gift of God is 
eternal life."  But there is still more to be complete: "THROUGH Jesus
our Lord."  Some people want to live defeated in the first part of the
verse.  Some people want to live as they please in the second part of the
verse.  The whole verse in context shows the defeat, the victory,
and the MEANS BY WHICH WE OBTAIN VICTORY.

A tenth grader learns the fundamentals of aerodynamics, proceeds to make
a properly shaped pair of wings out of popcorn and caramel.  He goes to 
the top of a building to fly.  He jumps off and the wings fall apart.
He never learned about materials needed for proper wing construction.
Incomplete knowledge.

The fact that we don't know doesn't mean we can't know.  Answers to 
the pertinent issues are found in the Bible; in Scripture.  The Bible
doesn't tell us all we need to know about God; it tells us all God
needs us to know about Him.  The rest is discovery - discovery that is
consistent with His Word, because God is consistent.  It is by His Word
that we verify an experience we believe to be from God so that the
very elect are not decieved.  The Bible talls us that deception will
occur and we are proud fools if we believe that it cannot happen to 
us with the incomplete knowledge we possess - so we must go to the 
source and ensure that experiences are at the very least not contra-scriptural,
even if they may be extra-biblical.

Mark

    First of all, I think it would be prudent for people to consider that
    there are some things that they just don't know, and will never know.
    There are some things we are just not meant to know. Of this I am
    convinced.

    We're so proud of ourselves, we think we can figure everything out. I
    for one am willing to say, I don't know, when it comes to certain
    things. Putting everything into the right or wrong buckets is really a
    huge job when you consider the complexities of life. Can't we let God
    deal with that? We've become so busy splitting hairs that we're
    forgetting about the golden rule. Seems to me, if Christians spent more
    time loving and less time haggling, the kingdom of God would really be
    at hand.

    Glenn

"Haggling" is sometimes guarding from error.  You might not consider
a challenge to the deity of Christ a topic of haggling.  

The question to ask is "what harm would be done if error was allowed to
be accepted with the truth?"  In some cases, not much indeed, and 
some ignorances can be overlooked; some interpretations boil down to
"haggling."  Then again, when it comes down to "how do you know God
is speaking or the devil?" knowing of a certainty seems to be important
enough not to haggle, but to identify and come to terms with the import
of such a question.  For some, they know and that is enough for them.
They don't have to prove their experience to anyone, and you know what?
They're RIGHT!  But when they bring their experience to another person
saying, "accept my experience, it is from God" then we've encountered
a bit of trouble.  Now, if folly, one seeks to draw another into folly
and that makes one responsible for another person's blood.  So the 
question is an important one and the loving thing to do is to determine
what truth is in the matter.

MArk

    I'll agree with that. I'm glad to see you use words like "sometimes"
    and "can be".

    However, I have found that defending the faith, as it were, is a lot more
    time consuming than sharing your faith. The way I see it, the fields
    are ripe unto harvest and we are trying to convince the weeds that they
    should be wheat all the while the crop is rotting.

    Glenn

    I'd really like to discuss the mechanics of testing.
    
    We've talked about the phrase "throw the baby out with the bathwater" -
    but how does one determine what is the baby (in this instance, G-d's
    revelation) and what is dirty bathwater (in this instance, something
    not of G-d)?
    
    Let's try to break this down into real "nuts & bolts" type stuff.
    
    I have found that many times, something doesn't "ring true" with me and
    I immediately discount it without really testing it.  Instead, I think
    I should:
    
    	a) acknowledge that something isn't ringing true
    	b) seek to identify *why* that is the case
    	
    		1: is my theology too small?
    			i.e., this experience is new to me, is
    			extra- but not contra-Biblical, and I "feel"
    			uncomfortable (next test: accurate feelings?)
    
    		2: is my theology 'spot-on'
    			i.e., this experience is new (or perhaps not)
    			to me, and is clearly contra- and/or anti-Biblical
                 	regardless of how it feels
    
    		3: is my theology unclear?
    			i.e., I can not determine whether this 
    			lines up or not with the Word and I'm 
    			feeling ambivalent
    
    	c) deal with each scenario appropriately
    
    This is an inadequate start, but there it is....can we discuss the
    mechanics of testing?  How do you (personally; reader; whoever you are)
    do it?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

    Deuteronomy 13:1-5, 18:20-22, Isaiah 8:20, Isaiah 9:15, and I John 4
    for starters.  God will *NEVER* contradict His Word in the Bible.  You
    also have to be honest in evaluating too.  You can't perform "mental 
    gymnastics" in order to save the prophet or source in question from 
    becoming a false prophet.
    
    I'm still waiting for an apology from the folks of TBN for the June 9th
    prophecy, but I doubt we'll ever get one.
    
    Mike

The first guideline has to be, as Mike expressed in .6 - it must conform to 
the Word as given :

  "But if we, or an angel from heaven, a should preach a gospel other than 
   the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!"
							Galatians 1:8

- and, of course the Deuteronomy tests (13:1-5) which condemn any prophet -
even if his prophecy is fulfilled - if it deviates from God's revealed
truth of the Bible.  The ministry has also to acknowledge the humanity and 
divinity of the LORD Jesus, from 1 John 4:2-3...

Beyond that, it's a learning experience; a faith walk.  All our time here,
we're learning to know and to be like our Father, by listening to the Holy
Spirit; the deposit within who guarantees our inheritance (eg Ephesians 
5:8-10,17).  We know, by listening to the Holy Spirit (John 14:26, 16:13 
etc).  Only those who are the LORD's - who have the Holy Spirit awakening 
their hearts - learn to know His voice, as in John 10:4,14, 1 Corinthians 
2:11-16.

The trouble is that being of binary state mentality, we tend to think that 
the equation transform is as follows :

	Jesus not in the heart	=	black ignorance, spiritually
	Jesus in the heart	=	total revelation

When we are converted, when the Holy Spirit enters, by Jesus' blood, the
holiness of God starts to work on us.  Starts.  We know that our character
develops as we mature, that 'sanctification' is a life-long process,
heading to fulfillment only when we see our precious LORD Jesus, as in 1
John 3:2.  It is also obvious that we don't know all the scriptures
prerfectly and automatically on being saved.  That, too, is a learning
process.  But also, we learn progressively to know the LORD's voice, and
recognise His direction.  If we knew all at once, we would be blown out of
our minds.  Worse than Isaiah in 6:, John in Revelation 1:17, Ezekiel in 
1:28....  The impact of holiness would burn us out.  His plan is so much 
more glorious than that.  He is wooing us from the jaws of distress, to a 
spacious place, free from restriction, to the comfort of your table laden 
with choice food .... (Job 37:16), and I'd love to go on to Isaiah 25:6-9, 
but then I'd never get back to the subject ;-)

He :
	*teaches* us to hear Him, 
	 *teaches* us to do His will, 
	  *teaches* us to know His Word (the Bible), 
	   *teaches* us to know His word (guidance to the individual heart). 

So that last is the tricky one.  That's the one which is different per 
individual, because each one is at a different stage on fulfilling God's 
personal plan for them.  That's the one where we tend to think that because 
it is revealed to *me*, it's something I have to make sure everyone knows, 
and rub their noses in it until they admit it's right.  Not so.  There's a 
lot of things we should keep in our own hearts, because it takes God's 
gentle touch to operate on that delicate instrument, the heart of our 
spirits, without doing damage.

Even if we *are* helping someone who admits need over a fault, we're to do
it gently, and beware in case it proves a trap for us who are ministering
(Galatians 6:1).  We are all fallible human instruments, learning, learning... 

Jesus knew exactly what was in people's hearts (John 2:25), but He didn't
blazon everything out publicly.  That would put up a wall of defense around
the error in the individual instead of melting it away.  He gave them every
opportunity to repent, and treated sensitive cases privately.  There's a 
place for each, and we need to discern which we're dealing with.

As we learn to listen to the LORD, we use what we hear.  In little ways,
usually - anyway at first!  Sometimes we're right, sometimes we make
mistakes.  These shouldn't be big doctrinal glitches, because our own
hearts should be testing them against the revealed Word of God first.  But
in insignificant areas, purely temporal / material, like dates, etc - very
fragile.  That's why any word spoken out has to be tested by those with
discernment, as in 1 Corinthians 14:29... 

Now everyone is at a different stage on the walk, some further on in one
area than others; others leading in different aspects, and our perceptions
of the relative importance of these areas differ as well.  So we can't
plant our stance on others as a guilt trip.  We can offer gently, where it
might be accepted, but if they are not ready to move into that area, we
only bring guilt on them, and discredit on ourselves by attempting to force
the issue. 

A lot of this is to do with the growth of faith within us.  That is very
important.  But it's not an 'act on what I tell you', passed on by another
Christian; it's 'walk with Me and learn to know Me', from the LORD.
Including learning to know the LORD in each other. 

Miracles and signs and wonders are two-a-penny tricks for heaven.  And they
close a faith / trusdt door, not open it.  When the enemy starts to use
them (2 Thessalonians 2:9, Revelation 13:13), God will keep step to protect
His followers.  They were authentication at certain stages as well.  But He
will not use miracles to intellectually force people to believe something 
their hearts totally resist.  They are not an 'easy convincer'.  Possibly 
the borderline on this is in 1 Corinthians 14:24-25, where the heart of an 
unbeliever is revealed to one of the fellowship, and that convicts the
unbeliever of his sin.  Not convicted by the miracle of knowing his heart,
notice, but convicted by realising the bare truth, the uncleanness, of what
has been exposed, that he would normally think of as private.  

I guess that some at least of the trigger for this note was :
	"What do we do about someone else's claimed relevation?"
as much as :
	"How do I know / test when I believe I have received a revelation?"

But I believe that we are talking the same thing, in that as we learn to 
discern the LORD's voice to / within us, we also learn to discern the LORD's 
voice to us via other human channels.

All I've time for just now, and I've blown the line limit too... 

							God bless
								Andrew