Conference yukon::christian_v7

          <<< Note 505.0 by ECFA01::JADDUS "Total Quality Services" >>>
			   Jaddus Manga
			S�o Paulo - Brazil

Jaddus,

If you have prayed concering this venture and are at peace about it,
then I think you could proceed with your plans.  Things to watch out
for are that you do not get caught up in any plans that go against 
the ways of the Lord.  For example, dishonest business practice, unethical
treatemnt of competitors, greed.  Perhaps you will be able to be a 
witness to this person with whom you go into business.  Make sure that
everything you do is above board and also legal.  Also make sure you do
protect yourself legally as well.  

To be yoked with an unbeliever is to accept their ways of thinking and
acting.  A lot depends on the person you would be going into business
with, and on yourself - your own temperant, the types of things you find to
be temptations for yourself.  I would suggest making a list of pros and
cons, advantages and disadvantages, goals you have - both personal and 
business goals, and so on, and then praying over the list.  Perhaps even
prayer and fasting is called for.

Leslie

    
    
    The very reason you shouldn't go on with it is what Leslie highlighted
    as things to look out for.  We don't have to pray about that which God
    has already spoken.  I would recommend that you do NOT go in a
    partnership with a non-Christian.
    
    
    Dan

But all of deal with and depend on non-Christians every single 
business day.  I think its something you have to look at on an
individual basis.

Leslie

    If you should not go into business with the non_Christian, then we must
    all immediately resign from Digital.  Digital is not a Christian
    organization and you are in partnership with Digital, you are an
    emissary of Digital, you represent Digital - therefore, you must leave
    Digital if you cannot partner with a non-Christian.
    
    I agree it would be much better to have a Christian partner and at the
    present time am trying to build something with three wonderful brothers
    in Christ, which would be ideal.  But, I am not leaving Digital because
    it is non-Christian(I may leave because they don't want me...).
    
    In His Love,
    
    Daryl

    I don't think we can cocoon ourselves into a nice, safe Christian haven
    and I don't believe that it's what God wants us to do either. If we
    don't interact with non-Christians, how are they to hear the Word of
    God?
    Christianity isn't an exclusive club and Christians shouldn't be
    spineless jellyfish, terrified of meeting anyone with differing views
    in case it undermines our faith. If we are, then our faith can't have
    been that much to start with.

There have always been Christians who have been convinced that they
cannot interact well with secular society.

These people may be called by God to join monastic or other religious
communities, set apart from the world.

Others are called to live in the world and be witnesses to God's plan
of salvation.

/john

�                     <<< Note 505.4 by SIERAS::MCCLUSKY >>>
Hi Daryl,
�    If you should not go into business with the non_Christian, then we must
�    all immediately resign from Digital.  

There is a difference between being employed by a non-Christian firm, and
going into voluntary partnership with a non-Christian.  When you set up a
firm, you take responsibliity for all its actions - legal and moral - for
its charitable commitments, and commitments to employees and customers.

This is not the case when you are employed by a firm.  There, you work as 
its servant, not as its master.  The total responsibility for Digital 
policy does not rest upon each Christian within Digital.  We may decide 
that there are areas we would not be happy working for, and generally have
choice to avoid them, while other areas are acceptable. 

Where you go into partnership with someone, you share responsiblity with
them, for any decisions taken on behalf of the firm.  By entering the
partnership, you imply that your partner's standards and values on all
relevant matters are as valid as yours.  This becomes critical when your
partners values are not Biblical / spiritual ones.  At first, the areas
will probably not seem to overlap, and the partnership can continue
comfortably.  However, as the business progresses, a time will come where
areas of morality and conscience are involved.  It is frequently hard
enough for Christians to reach a comfortable concensus in this sort of
area.  It is fraught for a Christian and a non-Christian to resolve it to
their mutual satisfaction.  The conflict area tends to grow, rather than
decrease, and implies considerable personal tension and grief on both
sides, almost inevitably leading to an uncomfortable parting of the ways.
This may take a short or a long time, depending on the details of the
circumstances.  It *may* be precluded by the salvation of the unsaved
partner, though this is not to be used as a reason or excuse for entering
such a state.  It is as likely to result instead in a compromise in the
witness of the Christian (which he may only perceive as a diplomatic
silence, not realising how it is affecting his actions and mental
perspective) 

The employment situation may, in extreme circumstances, request you to
behave in ways you feel incompatible with your Christianity.  However 
here, you have the progressive options of 
	 � Querying the policy
	 � Requesting a personal change of function
	 � Resigning
 - without any compromise of your Christian stance, and with no disloyalty
to the firm, or your commitment as an employee.  This is supported by the 
position of the slave in 1 Timothy 6:1-2, where clearly the slave should 
serve the non-Christian master sincerely, even though the one with the 
Christian master has a bonus motivation!

						God belss
								Andrew

    
    I understand that II CO 6.14 is relationed with the ethical and
    morals way of living as Leslie said we can't let us follow by
    non-christian ethical or against the way of Lord. If you are follow
    Lord's ethical you will not be wrong yoked.
    
    Sorry for my poor english...
    
    Peace of God
    
    			Jaddus
    

	My closest friend and I started a business together.

	I became a believer, he didn't.

	He could not accept my faith.
	
	The friendship suffered, so did the business relationship.

	His current (and my previous) values were not the ones I could live by
	anymore.  We could not agree on the right things to do....
	
	At times I wanted to use the business (professional video production
	facilities) for Christian efforts (for free), which he resented.  At
	other times he wanted to do business that I could not agree with.

	Yes, my witness to him was a strength and faith in God in some of the
	most brutal times economically I have ever been thru (ever collected
	soda bottles from your garage to have enough money to buy food for
	the weekend, hoping a check would come in the Monday mail to pay the 
	bills, and having it come in?).  And he commented on that faith.
 
	The business did not succeed, and many times I wonder if it could not,
	because of the mixed yoke.....I think adversity is what my partner needs
	to break his pride.... and a success in business would have kept him
	firmly rooted in the world.....


	Because a business relationship is so like a marriage, in closeness
	of partners, in joint decisions, in common goals, I really feel that
	the Scipture does apply to businesses.......


	(I agree with a previous reply, it has nothing to do with working FOR
	a secular company)

	Bob	

    I agree totally with .9  Do not go into a partnership with anyone,
    especially a friend.
    
    Before you do, find some successful partnerships, it will be hard.
    
    Check the suicide rate and murder rate among business partners.
    
    I have personally made this mistake and will never again.
    
    A close friend went into partnership with 3 Christian men, in a Real
    Estate deal.  3 years later the other 3 men had left, leaving Dennis
    holding the bag, net loss $350,000 which Dennis being a strong
    Christian took upon himself to pay back.
    
    Think long and hard about this before signing anything.
    
    Glenn Sparks

	Once you went into business with a fellow Christian, and things picked
up, would you only hire Christians to work there?


Glen

.12

I suppose that depends on one's definition of Christian.
Or not.

    Andrew, I think that your arguements for the difference between working
    for Digital and in a partnership, make the case for it being worse to
    work for Digital.  You are correct, we have very little we can say
    about the non-Christian decisions in Digital.  However, in a simple
    partnership you can influence or make the decisions in a Christian
    manner.  I think you convinced me that my point was even more important
    than I originally thought.  If you can't work in a non-Christian
    environment, then you must leave a company that is non-Christian, but
    you might stay in a partnership because at least that portion which was
    yours could be governed and display the Christian belief and you might
    even influence the rest of the partners.
    
    Daryl

Hi Daryl,

I think you missed my point.  Our responsiblity lies in what *we* do, not
in what others do.

� You are correct, we have very little we can say about the non-Christian
� decisions in Digital.
By the presence and influence of the Holy Spirit within, we affect to some
extent, the 'non-Christian' company decisions.  But we are not responsible
to God for company policy.  It does not affect our integrity either way,
unless it is an area we are personally involved in, where we have the
degree of individual choice.  Obviously you would not choose to work in a
company whose main purpose you perceived as immoral, because then you would
inevitably be inextricably involved with that immoral purpose.  But most
companies have a primary function towards which which 'we' would be happy
to contribute.  This would not implicate us in every aspect of their
dealings, whether as company policy, or taken on the responsiblity of other
individual employees.

� you might stay in a partnership because at least that portion which was
� yours could be governed and display the Christian belief and you might
� even influence the rest of the partners.

That is the fatal trap which compromises witness...  If you are in the 
partnership, you *have* total responsibility for *all* that is done in 
the company name.  You are unable to work on the basis of your spiritual
perception alone, because you are in harness with your partners.  The
division of responsibility is never clean and simple, as you represent it. 
The assignment and investment of profits - putting it into the business,
paying out dividends, etc, morality of attitude towards employees, use of
premises and employee care, especially in varying economic climate, where
employees expectations and commitments may be compromised, pension
commitments, and their devaluation as currency collapses...  Interests,
opinions and commitments will conflict sharply. 

The 'influence on the rest of the partners' is more likely to cause
intensely heated division than to melt them to the kindness of the partner
who is giving their investment away rather than see other people suffer. 

Remember, it is *their* investment you are dealing with as much as your 
own, only you have limited and tied your ability to control it, to what 
they can agree with.  

The compromise is that you effectively let *your* *responsibility* be 
administered equally by those who do not have the LORD.  Better to give it 
to them as a charitable gift, when you no longer have responsibility or 
control over it, than to put it in their hand with yours still trapped in 
there, implied in all it is used for...


Consider government.  My country (and, I expect, yours too) have some laws
we see as opposed to God's law, and bear a level of guilt by association
(eg the abortion laws).  Not that we commit or approve of these acts, but we
are a part of our country.  Daniel (9:5-19) and Nehemiah (1:6-7) identified 
likewise with the sins of the Israelites.  That is us as employees, 
standing beside our fellows to point the way, and be salt and light in the 
world.

However, the common citizen is in a very different position from the member 
of government who supports his party by obligation in actually bringing in 
these laws, and is committed to vote for them, though he knows in his heart 
that they are immoral.

Now that probably *has* confused the issue ... ;-}

						God bless
							Andrew

    re .15 :  
    
    You point out the situation with governments, but the difference here
    is that I may and do actively oppose abortion.  I can freely take that
    position, I can vote against it or for legislation that restricts or
    eliminates it.  I can also be outspoken about my religious veiws and
    openly oppose government veiws not in accord.  At Digital, I cannot do
    that.  This Notes file has a restriction that I do not agree with, but
    I cannot do anything about it.  I cannot take an action that is in
    opposition to the company's position on this same issue, but it
    certainly reflects on my religious views and how people view me and
    what I stand for.  In this particular area, I have had outsiders make
    comments and ask questions because of Digital's position.
    
    I believe in your assumptions about a partnership you are forgetting
    that we would have a legal agreement as to what each would do, what the
    partnerships goals are, etc.  Which if done successfully would prevent
    any problem about "giving away assests", which I can't believe a
    Christian partner would want to do.  That would be against his
    responsibility to be a good steward.
    
    All of the points you make, are causing me to be more uncomfortable in
    my relationship to Digital.  I feel more and more like I am
    compromising my beliefs by working here - in a partnership, I would
    have some control and influence...  

Sorry this seems to be making you feel uncomfortable about being employed
here Daryl!  I don't know if I can clear anything up, but I'll have another
try!

�    I believe in your assumptions about a partnership you are forgetting
�    that we would have a legal agreement as to what each would do, what the
�    partnerships goals are, etc.  Which if done successfully would prevent
�    any problem .....

That's like marrying a non-Christian, on the agreement that she accepts 
your church attendance.

Being a Christian affects *every* aspect of your life.  Or should do!  And 
as you grow older, you find it touches more, not less, of what you are.  
The limits set five minutes ago are suddenly meaningless when the 
inevitable new circumstances enter your life.

You find that God requires advancing steps of faith, which control what you
are in every area of life.  He needs what is *yours*, so that yuo are not
more attached to it than you are to Him (like Abraham, being prepared to
sacrifice Isaac...).  When those assets are closely tied to the operation 
of someone who has no allegiance to the LORD, you are limiting the LORD's 
access to your own life.

� about "giving away assests", which I can't believe a Christian partner
� would want to do.  That would be against his responsibility to be a good 
� steward.
When you give to a secular charity, you don't have responsibility for how 
they use the money you give.  You are giving to the publicised need.  If a 
dishonest management embezzles it, or uses it wastefully, that does not 
make *you* guilty, having given in good faith.  That's what I meant by 
giving money being less likely to implicate you in guilt, than if the money 
you invest in your own firm is used immorally, by majority vote of the 
(non-Christian) partners.

�    compromising my beliefs by working here - in a partnership, I would
�    have some control and influence...  

The point is that in a partnership you have responsibility for the actions 
of the whole firm, but ability to only *contribute* to decisions; not control 
them.

As an employee, you do *not* have responsibility for 'company' actions or 
policy; only for your particular individual contribution as an employee,
which you *do* have complete control over, in a moral context.  If you
don't, it would look to me like a personnel issue. 

					God bless
							Andrew

>Sorry this seems to be making you feel uncomfortable about being employed here.

Hey, *I* feel uncomfortable being employed here, and Digital's going to do
something about it!  ;-)  8^o

    " As an employee, you do *not* have responsibility for 'company'
    actions or policy; only for your particular individual contribution as 
    an employee, which you *do* have complete control over, in a moral context.
    If you don't, it would look to me like a personnel issue.
    
                                            God bless
                                                            Andrew"
    
    Here's where we are having problems.  I do have complete control - I
    can quit and not be a part of it - if I represent something to a
    customer, I am responsible for the effect that has, on the customer and
    on Digital.  True, Digital can fire me, but I am responsible for what I
    said and did and the "guidance" I gave the customer.  But, the ultimate
    control is that I can quit and disassociate myself from Digital, but I
    would be faced probably with joining another company that holds similar
    or other views that do not provide for my Christian beliefs.  
    
    Finally, would I not be a more effective "solider" in some other venue,
    like a partnership where Christian values can be adopted and
    incorporated by my actions, instead of a place like Digital where they
    won't even be considered?
    
    I understand too well the problems of an "unequal yoke", but I guess I
    am suggesting that gives me influence in this case as oppossed to
    supporting the non-Christian veiws of an employer.  
    
    In His love,
    
    Daryl
     End of note

A company is a microcosm of society.

In America, we have the freedom to leave it, too.  Whole societies are
judged by God and "innocent" people are judged along with them.  (In the
case of Israel, some "innocent" people died as a result of societal 
judgment, but let us remember where righteous dead go, and is this a 
punishment?  Back to the point:)   Some societies we have choice about; 
and some we have much less choice about.  

My brother works in a factory where the atmosphere is very
non-conducive to Christianity.  Some say he should quit and find another
job.  And to the point, he is looking.  but he has a family to support
and works numerous double shifts to support that family.  His choice and
opportunities are diminished.  

Not everyone who is part of the society is unequally yoked with those
other members of society.  I think that's called "being in the world, 
but not being of the world."  When the line between "in" and "of" gets
blurry, then it is time to evaluate if the yoke is not easy nor light.

Mark