Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Part 2 is the biggest loop hole I've ever seen.
    
    Not much of a defense in my opinion.
    
    Glenn

>			One answer is that the spirit came back.
>
>			One woman was bound by the devil for 18 years
>	with a spirit of infirmity.  The fact that the spirit left her
>	does not mean that it wanted to, or that it did not want to come
>	back to her.  When Jesus cast out a spirit, sometimes he would
>	command the spirit _not_ to return.  
    
    You are saying that God cannot complete a healing and make a healing 
    everlasting.  This is unscriptural.  God doesn't do anything half-way.

>2.) lack of patience
>	a.) sets up ultimatum time limits for God to act and 'thats it!'
>	b.) cannot wait upon the Lord or listen for His Word
		
>3.) misunderstanding of the promise 
>	a.) claimed the wrong thing for the situation
>	b.) added their own words to the promise and blew it
>	c.) got a wrong preconceived notion of what the promise is
>	d.) going around in circles for lack of wisdom/discernment

>4.) Misappropriation of the promise
>	a.) conditions for receiving not fulfilled, 'If you... then...'
>	b.) person unqualified to receive from God, 'They that wait...'

>11.) Lack of discernment between demonic and natural origin of the sickness.  
>		Sometimes, Jesus would cast it out.  Other times, he would 
>		heal it.

>12.) Lack of authority, faith, empowerment on the part of the person who is	
>		praying for the other person.  Jesus criticized the faith of
>		his disciples for inability to cast out the deaf/dumb mute.  

>15.) Judging according to the flesh rather than after the Spirit.

>9.) A blocking curse
>	a.) The Israelites were under a curse for not tithing
>	b.) The Israelites were under a curse for disobediences
>	c.) Some folks self-invoke curses over themselves/household
>	d.) Failure to respect and obey parents
>	e.) Generational curses never cleared away by the blood
>	f.) Curses invoked from past cult/occult involvement
>	g.) Curses invoked from past sin/idolatry
>	h.) Curses invoked for failure to consider the poor
    
    So you're saying the atoning blood of Jesus Christ doesn't wash away
    *ALL* sin.  Pure balderdash and unbiblical!  The rest is just
    superstition.
    

RE:                      <<< Note 504.0 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>
                      -< A Defense of the Faith Movement >-

    
				   -------------
>			Why do some people claim to be healed, and then
>	later lose their healing?  

>			One answer is that the spirit came back.


     So, conceivably, one with the "right amount" of faith can live for
     ever in their earthly body?




  Jim

    
    3.) misunderstanding of the promise
            a.) claimed the wrong thing for the situation
            b.) added their own words to the promise and blew it
            c.) got a wrong preconceived notion of what the promise is
            d.) going around in circles for lack of wisdom/discernment
    
    What?! Is God a Genie in a bottle?   
    
    	  Sorry you:  "claimed the wrong thing"
    		      " blew it"
    		      "got a wrong preconceived"
    
          Ahhh nuts! Can I try again?

    Another explanation as to why someone may not be healed, though asking,
    or may relapse after a healing:
    
    
    GOD IS SOVEREIGN!!!
    

    Sovereign, Yes...
       Arbitrary, No...
    

    .-1 Amen!!!

    The "'faith' movement" is neither.
    
    Such "faith" is based soley on results (didn't get what you want? 
    didn't have enough faith).
    
    Just say "no".
    
    Steve

.14>
 Title:  Hebrews 11:36-39

Hebrews 11:36  And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea,
moreover of bonds and imprisonment:
 37  They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with
the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute,
afflicted, tormented;
 38  (Of whom the world was not worthy:) they wandered in deserts, and in
mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
 39  And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not
the promise:

    @BROKEN_RECORD.COM
    
>	c.) When Saul yoked up with the prophets, he prophesied.  He just
>		so happened to be in the right place at: 1.) the right place,
>		2.) at the right time, 3.) with the right people.  Elisha
>		poured water on the hands of Elijah, and saw the chariot
>		of God.  The association and influence of Elijah brought
>		results.  He was in the right environment.  Gehazi saw
>		the chariots of Israel because he was Elisha's waterboy.
    
    Are you really saying that these men were lucky to have the ministries
    that they did?  Didn't God have anything to do with it?

    I guess my main complaint against, so called faith healers, is the
    unbalanced lifestyle they are leading many people in.
    
    I was a member of a charismatic church in Florida for a while and was
    involved in working with the youth there.  I remember alter calls being
    given and 80-90% of the kids were coming up for healing.  These were
    healthy 13-16 year old kids!  They didn't need healing, they needed to
    learn to walk with the Lord.  They needed to allow the Father to make a
    difference is the everyday practical areas of their life, but their
    focus was only on the supernatural elements of the Christian life.
    
    Don't get me wrong, I am not against the Charismatic movement (As I
    said in my introduction, if I didn't go to church where I now attend, I
    would probably go to a Church of God in our area).  The Charismatic 
    movement has done many good things for the Christian community, such as
    teaching a lot of us how to Worship & Praise and letting some folks
    know its OK to show signs of LIFE.  Its just that I have seen alot of
    folks who base their walk with the Lord on their emotions (feelings). 
    I believe that the Lord still leads some to speak in toungues today (my
    sister has received a prayer language & she is one of the most Logical
    people I have ever met).
    
    The Christian life is a life of balance.  It is based on Truth.  Jesus
    lives in me and He is the Truth.  God has given us His Truth in His
    Word, through which we can get to know the Lord and by which we can
    test if the voice we hear is really from God.  I believe the old train
    illustration  is very valid.  The engine should be Fact, followed by
    faith, and last the Feelings.  Its great when we can Feel God's
    presence, but our life shouldn't be based on continually seeking a
    feeling.  We should seek to walk in an intimate relationship with God
    Himself, who lives in the believer's life through the Holy Spirit.  If
    we have a feeling, great.  If not, it doesn't change the Truth.
    
    I believe God heals.  I believe that involves first - God's desire for
    the physical healing of that person and second - the person responding
    to God in faith.  Again, its not the AMOUNT of our faith, but our faith
    in a AWESOME God.  To say that the AMOUNT of our faith has anything to
    do with it is an insult to God.  Which takes more faith- to take a
    cross country trip in a brand new Mercedes, or to make the trip in a
    beat up old hunk of junk with 600k miles on it?  
    
    Getting back to the balance issue.  I don't think that 50 plus percent
    of a Christians life should be consumed with physical healing.  Our
    life with the Lord is based on the Spirit.  A balanced walk with the
    Lord may include physical healing, but it involves every area of our
    lives.  We need to major on the Majors and minor on the Minors.  The
    major being to know God and the power of His resurrection and the
    fellowship of His sufferings.  Let's focus on abiding in the Vine and
    on loving each other.  The Bible says that is how the world will know
    us, "by our love for one another".
    
    Bing
    
      

 Amen, Bing...


 I had forgotten about the train illustration!




Jim

    
    It continues to amaze me how someone can take a handful of scripture,
    put it all together in some convoluted fashion, and come up with the
    most incredulous conclusions.  
    
    Dan

    Dan, that's what we call a "CULT."

I see the problem as lying in focussing on the manifestation of the LORD,
rather than on the LORD Himself.  Everyone is individual, known to God, not
as 'another cancer case', or 'faith problem #739', but by name.  Not just
the tag we call each other by, but the name He is giving us for eternity.
The name which describes our character, and our part in the heavenly bride.

He sees the precise route each of us needs to travel to reach our place.  
Not the same place as each other, but each one with difference priorities, 
tasks, emphases, as in Ephesians 2:10 "We are God's workmanship, craeted in 
Christ Jesus to do good works which God prepared in advance for us to do."
*That*'s how deep His very personal love for each one of us goes.  The 
height His blood reached for us at Calvary, as opposed to the depth of our 
sinfulness...

Our battle here on earth is against a defeated foe, the devil, and his
minions (Ephesians 6:12 - our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but
against .... the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms.")  And 
that struggle is not primarily concerned with external, physical 
maladies, but with control of our will.  Using our bodies for the glory of 
the LORD, rather than for self-glorification, as in Romans 12:1-2 "

 "...offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God - this 
  is your spiritual act of worship.  Do not conform any longer to the pattern 
  of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.  Then you 
  will be able to test and approve what God's perfect and pleasing will is - 
  His good, pleasing and perfect will."

This is a tall order, and where our efforts should be primarily focussed, 
and so many scriptures (eg Ephesians 5) indicate that this is the way we 
should be learning to walk with the LORD.

Now undoubtedly, God can use us to do great physical / material works / 
miracles, but His sole aim is to bring us closer to Him.  The 'natural' 
result of a miracle is pride, which leads *away* from Him.  The one who is 
to be used in such a manner needs first to stand in sufficient humility to 
ensure that God has the total glory.

Again, who is learning most from the LORD, and growing most in Him : the
one who is sated with material / physical benefits, or the one who is
constantly before the LORD in physical or material need?  Which one has the 
greater testimony : the one who is rejoicing in the LORD with all worldly 
advantages, or the one who is rejoicing in the LROD though deprived of 
worldly benefits?  We serve a glorious Master, Who knows our frame, and 
remembers that we are but dust.  He does not ask of us more than we can 
endure, but is tuning us, not for something good en masse, but for our 
personal and individual best for Him.

Our growth in faith is not by 'seeing'.  Sight precludes faith.  Hebrews 11 
makes this totally obvious (:1 "certain of what we do not see").  The 
effects of faith are often pressed forwards as reasons for faith, instead 
of the - almost incidental - results of the LORD's activity.  I see the 
concentration on the 'results' as detrimental to walking there....

Meanwhile, I also see that there *is* a spiritual battle in which different 
people have a different part *under the LORD's hand*.  There is a place
where the LORD intervenes, but walking there is most concerned with
individual spiritual discernment and knowing His voice.  It is more
consistent with humility and reserve than with publication... 

						In Jesus' love
								Andrew

    The problem that I see with this stuff is that it causes a lot of
    people to throw the baby out with the bath water. Better safe than
    sorry approach, and if you're not like us, you're a cult.

    Glenn

	Thanks Glenn, said it better than I ever could...

	Karen

>    The problem that I see with this stuff is that it causes a lot of
>    people to throw the baby out with the bath water. Better safe than
>    sorry approach, and if you're not like us, you're a cult.

I agree with you Glenn.  But the balance must be found.  And there is
a means by which we can know.  Man does not live by bread - or circumstances,
or experiences, or feelings - but by every word that proceeds from the
mouth of God.  Without Biblical application (and I'm not saying that these
are God's only words - they are not), the footing is less sure.  And
certainly anything that CONTRADICTS the Bible is not of God.  Therefore it
is right to test things.  (And, as you admonish, not be too hasty with
things that are merely extra-bilical instead of contra-biblical.)

Mark

    RE: Note 504.26 by TOKNOW::METCALFE
    
    Not good enough. It's still a question of perspective. There is no
    clear objective approach.

    Look at how the experts on scripture handled Christ. They figured,
    "Hey, you can't do that!", "Hey, you can't say that!", "Hey, you can't
    go there!", "Hey, you can't hang out with this riffraff!", "Hey, you
    must be the Prince of Demons!"


    For the sake of "balance" I've seen the work of the Holy Spirit grieved
    time and time again. I've grown to hate the term "balance" as it
    applies to faith in Christ. From what I have experienced, the balanced 
    path leads to fear of the Holy Spirit and then declarations that
    certain manifestations of the Holy Spirit are demonic. Can you say
    `blasphemy' ?

    It's an endless debate and an endless schism.

    Glenn

>    Look at how the experts on scripture handled Christ. They figured,
>    "Hey, you can't do that!", "Hey, you can't say that!", "Hey, you can't
>    go there!", "Hey, you can't hang out with this riffraff!", "Hey, you
>    must be the Prince of Demons!"

Christ never did anything against the Scriptures.  And you can look closely
at his "sabbath breaking" to verify this.  Jesus said the scriptures testify
of Him.

John 5:39  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
and they are they which testify of me.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

>    For the sake of "balance" I've seen the work of the Holy Spirit grieved
>    time and time again. I've grown to hate the term "balance" as it
>    applies to faith in Christ. From what I have experienced, the balanced 
>    path leads to fear of the Holy Spirit and then declarations that
>    certain manifestations of the Holy Spirit are demonic. Can you say
>    `blasphemy' ?

Perhaps, Glenn, you confuse balance with compromise.  Can you say `mistaken,'
`misled,' or worse?  It is just as blasphemous to attribute to God 
manifestations of the devil.  HOW CAN YOU TELL!??!??!?  There is a way. 

Blanket statements on both sides of this schism are not helpful.

>    It's an endless debate and an endless schism.

Only by those who do not follow the scriptures but insist on verifying
their experiences with their own experiences.

Mark

    Then I contest that no one follows the Scriptures.

    They only follow the ones they want to. The ones they have deemed
    applicable.

    And when you show certain people Scriptures which they can't fit into
    their box they say "That was for the apostles" etc.

    When you say you follow the Scriptures, you better follow all of them.

    Even if you do, you can still justify your particular view. That's what
    denominations are made of.

    Isn't nice to know we're all right.

    Glenn

>    Then I contest that no one follows the Scriptures.

If you include yourself, then you may be more correct than you know.

>    They only follow the ones they want to. The ones they have deemed
>    applicable.

That is why balance is necessary, so that both views of predestination 
and free will can paradoxically coexist.  

I find your tone rather cynical, Glenn.  You want people not to 
throw the baby out with the bath water, but you should also want
the bath water to be thrown out or the baby remains unclean.

Mark

    I'd rather have an unclean baby than just a tub of bath water. One is
    life the other is not.
    
    Glenn

>    I'd rather have an unclean baby than just a tub of bath water. One is
>    life the other is not.

Interesting.  I didn't know this was a choice.  As I have said about
the prodigal son, what good is a dead son?

An unclean baby, (in this case, truth) is erring on the one side instead
of the other.  You don't have life (in your analogy) - you have an unclean 
and possibly disease-prone child that can spread death. 

Instead of throwing out the baby with the bath water, or having an unclean 
baby, why not simply throw out the bath water and have a clean baby?!?
It can be done, you know.  Or don't you think so?

Mark

    Well, I think we've taken that metaphor a little too far don't you
    think?

    The point I was trying to make is that in many ways we pursue
    what we think is right more than we pursue God.

    As for dirty babies, who let them out of their cribs anyway? And why
    should we be so concerned with dirty babies?.

    Rub a dub dub. ;-)

    Glenn

    .33
    
    And if one pursues God based on the inerrant word of Goin your opinion
    are they following God?

    Re. .19
    
    I agree with Bings comments about the altar calls. I've seen a lot of
    christians almost dominated by their feelings:- if they're not getting
    the "buzz" there must be something wrong so they go to the front to get
    prayed for by the celebrity. Their whole walk with God is based on the
    ministry of humans (albeit annointed of God [in most cases]) and
    feeling that supernatural "buzz".
    
    Surely true faith is trusting God when you don't see results:
    
    "Though the fig tree does not bud and there are no grapes on the vines,
    though the olive crop fails and the fields produce no food, though
    there are no sheep in the pen and no cattle in the stalls YET I WILL
    REJOICE IN THE LORD, I WILL BE JOYFUL IN GOD MY SAVIOUR" (Habakkuk
    3:17&18)
    
    Having said that I am a Spirit-filled, raving charismatic who has seen
    people healed by the power of God. As I read somewhere recently (may
    have been in thie conference) - often when we are faced with one
    extreme we back up right to the other extreme. God is sovereign and He
    longs to bless us and lead us, however, Gods idea of blessing is often
    VERY different to ours (ie blessed are you when you suffer). Suffering
    (ie not getting healed) leads to perseverance and the scripture
    progresses to hope (sorry I haven't got time to look it up).
    
    Love covers it all:- Gods immense love for us,
    			 Our love for Him (which trusts even when we see
   			 little reason to trust Him)
    			 Our love for each other by which non-believers see
     			 we belong to Christ.
    
    
    As Joni says "Let God be God".
    
    Ben

    re: .35
    
    Yeah - I'd say that's balanced (even if you did admit to being a
    *raving* charismatic ;-).

What you said, Ben, on all counts.  And thank you for that verse in Habakkuk,
it's lovely.

Paul

    re  Note 504.34 by JULIET::MORALES_NA
    
    |And if one pursues God based on the inerrant word of Goin your opinion
    |are they following God?
    
    Sorry Nancy, I didn't understand this.
    
    Glenn

>    |And if one pursues God based on the inerrant word of Goin your opinion
>    |are they following God?
>    
>    Sorry Nancy, I didn't understand this.
    

Fumble-fingers.  Happens to the best of us.  It should read as follows:

  And if one pursues God based on the inerrant word of God, in your opinion,
  are they following God?

Nancy should be coming online soon.

    .39
    
    Not fumble-fingers.. modem noise!!! :-(  Mark, got it right.

I think the best analogy that I've heard regarding the Word/Spirit and the
necessity of both is that of flying a kite: When trying to fly a kite, there are
two things that are absolutely necessary to make the kite fly:  wind and string.

Without the wind, the kite is lifeless.  The wind is the force that makes the
kite rise, and without it the kite is just sticks and paper, a lifeless bundle
that lies on the ground.  The string lies limp and useless.

Without string, the kite is uncontrolled and unable to rise into the air.  It
just crashes along the ground until it batters itself to pieces.

Only when the two are combined, the force and life of the wind, controlled by
the string, does the kite soar into the air.


In the same way, without the Spirit to illuminate us, our lives are lifeless. 
The spirit is the force that lifts our hearts.  Without it, with only the word,
our lives can turn to lifeless legalism, as did the Pharisees, as do many
mainline churches.

Without the Word, we become uncontrolled and reckless.  It is not that the Holy
Spirit leads us wrong, but that there are other spirits, both our own emotions
and demonic spirits, which are also trying to lead us.  Without the guidance of
the Word, we crash around in every direction until we are battered to pieces.

It is only when we have the power of the Spirit, guided and discrened by the
Word, that we are able to soar to the heights that Jesus desires for us.

Paul

    |And if one pursues God based on the inerrant word of God, in your opinion,
    |are they following God?
    
    I think the term "based on" is the key. If you mean "based soley on"
    then I would think that these people would be following God to a point,
    and sincerely trying to do their best. 
    
    The fact that the scriptures are considered inerrant (not not true)
    doesn't change the fact that they can be, and are, used errantly.
    
    Glenn

        Paul, thanks for that kite analogy. That was excellent!
    
    	Glenn

>			I try not to nit-pick, but...  re: .15

Greg,
  Do you take one piece of scripture over another and exclude the other?

I don't know what you are trying to say by offering Heberews 6:12-15 
in response to Hebrews 11:36-39.  Both are scripture and both must be
granted equal weight.  To exclude one is to miss it.

Mark