Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Sylvain
    
    Excellent note, the Bible clearly states that nobody knows when the
    Lords return will be, indeed it will come like a thief in the night.
    And if Jesus doesn't even know Himself when He's returning then I don't
    think we're gonna be in a more priveleged position than Him !!
    
    Personally I believe there's a lot more prophecy to be fulfilled yet
    and I believe the bride has yet to make herself ready for the return of
    the Groom (probably through persecution). 
    
    The one thing we are sure of is that God wants us to be ready ALL THE
    TIME. I had a dream once, before I was saved (but was a church goer),
    that the holocaust was announced on the TV. I fell to my knees in
    repentance because I knew I was not right with God and not ready to die. 
    It turned out to be a false alarm but, in my dream, I heard an audible
    voice say something like "You should always be ready, you don't know when
    your time will come". I heard Andre Crouch singing 'It won't be long'
    recently and it all came back to me and me and my friend both felt the
    conviction of God that we weren't ready if that trumpet were to sound
    there and then. 
    
    Bless you all
    
    Ben
                          
    
     

  Re .0, .1

  Good warning and I've given one like it myself.

  There is a however, however.

  Remember the scribes, pharisees and saducees, they had a meticulous
  systematic theology with proof texts in abundance, but Our Heavenly
  Father proved them wrong. We (I) should be very careful in our dogmatism
  especially in the area of "prophetic" things. He loves to bring down the
  proud (i know).

  If the Lord "rips the evil" from the world, that will be cause for
  rejoicing (and someday He will). If not, I'm not going to say
  na-na-na-na-na-na because I've been there and its not a nice feeling
  on the receiving end. We just have to keep on keeping on and pleading
  with our Father to stop the lawlessness and cruel evil in the world.
  I think the June 9th thing is a manifestation of the anguish and 
  lack of power we feel concerning the wickedness and the display of 
  its fulness in these last days and its probably going to get worse 
  before it gets better.

  Lets not be too hard on one another and be patient.

  Therefore be patient brethren until the coming of the Lord... 
  For the coming of the Lord is at hand.          James 5:7;8. NKJV.

  Even so, come Lord Jesus.

  Hank

Hi Sylvain,

Good to be careful!  True, we do not know the day or the hour, but the
'June 9th' topic is not about the LORD's return - it makes that very clear,
and several links in the chain would have questioned it seriously if this
were claimed. 

We live in a time when prophecies and fufillments are not seen on an 
international scale.  That is not to say that they never will be seen.  In 
fact, Joel 2:28-32 speaks of them in a dimension not experienced at the 
initial outpouring in Acts 2.  One day we will see these.  At the same 
time, there will be false prophets (Matthew 24:24, etc).  Our task is to 
walk close enough to the LORD to discern what is from Him, and what is not. 
One of the tests is whether it comes to pass, as you referred to in 
Deuteronomy 18:18-22.  We also have to discern the heart of the one 
prophesying (1 Corinthians 14:29, 1 John 4:1), so that we know whether to 
accept the prophet and the complete message; the prophet and some 
proportion of the message; the prophet but not the complete message; or 
neither the prophet nor the message.

One day Jesus is coming back again.  When this happens, it will be 
overwhelming.  And the whole course of events will be completely changed.  
He will destroy the antiChrist with His coming (2 Thessalonians 2:8, 
Revelation 19:20, Daniel 7:11, 26).  At that point it will be too late to 
say "Now I will follow Jesus" - the decision has already been taken; faith 
is swallowed up by sight, in the fulfillment of the promise.

The awakening signs that Jesus' return is approaching are not setting the
date; just recognising the signs of the times, as in Matthew 24:33, 
1 Thessalonians 5:4-5.  And as recommended by Jesus in Matthew 16:3... 

We listen and test.  Some prophecies are clearly aiming to exalt man, and 
take advantage of gullible people.  We can dismiss those immediately.  Some 
are more plausible.  Some have the ring of truth.  All must be tested.

We need to be as careful *not* to reject where God *is* moving, as to
*reject* where He is *not* moving.  So we wait and see!

�    P.S. What happens on June 10th when it doesnt come to pass? Are these
�    people who claim to have had a word from God going to do as the JW's
�    did when they were wrong, or will they ask God's forgiveness for 
�    falsely speaking on God's behalf?

We would then know to question the source very carefully another time...  
Some might repent and review their place before the LORD.  This is rare.  
It is their responsiblity before God.  Ours is to remain faithful 
ourselves.

We also have to ask ourselves "What happens on June 10th when it *does*
come to pass?  Are those people who said this is all false going to repent 
before God for faithlessness?"

Meanwhile, the burden of the warning is to examine ourselves before the 
LORD, that we might walk righteously before Him.  That is the immediate 
effect, and I pick no holes in that!

Thank you, Silvain, for raising a point we need to be aware of...  the 
exercise of discernment...


						God bless
							Andrew

Um...  I've only skimmed this (because I don't attach much significance to 
future dates), but I believe I did see it stated that this (June 9) was
NOT a prophecy about Jesus' Second coming, which is not known to anyone
but the Father, but a prediction (or prophecy) of some impending heavenly
sign which is distinct from the Second Coming of Christ.  (Corrections 
are welcome.)

Also a reminder, we should know the season in which Christ will return, 
as did the Jews (and magi, for that matter) knew the season when
the Messiah was to be born.  God doesn't seem to be into surprizes
on the big events and provides a whole lot of warning (which sadly goes
unheeded by many) as to what is to take place (witness: Exodus, Sodom, Ninevah,
Advent of Christ, Pentecost, and the end times).

So let's be careful, like Mary, to "treasure up" (ponder) things in our hearts
and not be found guilty of naysaying what could be correct prophesy.  As
Gamaliel said, "If it is of man, it will fail; but if it is of God, it cannot
fail! and nothing you do can stop it."  But what you say could be held 
against you.

Acts 5:34  Then stood there up one in the council, a Pharisee, named
Gamaliel, a doctor of the law, had in reputation among all the people, and
commanded to put the apostles forth a little space;
 35  And said unto them, Ye men of Israel, take heed to yourselves what ye
intend to do as touching these men.
 36  For before these days rose up Theudas, boasting himself to be somebody;
to whom a number of men, about four hundred, joined themselves: who was slain;
and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
 37  After this man rose up Judas of Galilee in the days of the taxing, and
drew away much people after him: he also perished; and all, even as many as
obeyed him, were dispersed.
 38  And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for
if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
 39  But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even
to fight against God.

    Mark is correct.  The June 9 prophesy is not the second coming or the
    rapture, but of a "sign" from heaven.  I hope and pray that the
    prophesy is from God...this world needs to be shaken up a bit, turned
    form its evil course.
    
    However, I will not be harmed in any way (spiritually) should it be a
    false prophesy.  As much as a sign from God would excite me, I don't
    place my hope and salvation in "signs", but in the Lordship and Blood
    of Christ.
    
    I will keep my eyes open regardless of how this turns out.
    
    
    -steve

One thing that may result from all of this is somewhat of a "sifting".  It may
serve to help unmask some false prophets, or confirm the prophetical office of
some.

Rob

And to add balance (again):

Matthew 12:38  Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered,
saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
 39  But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation
seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of
the prophet Jonas:

Matthew 24:3  And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto
him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be
the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Matthew 24:24  For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and
shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they
shall deceive the very elect.

Matthew 24:30  And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of
man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 8:11  And the Pharisees came forth, and began to question with him,
seeking of him a sign from heaven, tempting him.
 12  And he sighed deeply in his spirit, and saith, Why doth this generation
seek after a sign? verily I say unto you, There shall no sign be given unto
this generation.

Mark 13:22  For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew
signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

Mark 16:17  And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall
they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

Mark 16:20  And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working
with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Luke 11:16  And others, tempting him, sought of him a sign from heaven.

Luke 11:29  And when the people were gathered thick together, he began to say,
This is an evil generation: they seek a sign; and there shall no sign be given
it, but the sign of Jonas the prophet.
 30  For as Jonas was a sign unto the Ninevites, so shall also the Son of man
be to this generation.

Luke 21:7  And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things
be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

Luke 21:11  And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and
pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.

Luke 21:25  And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the
stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and
the waves roaring;

John 4:48  Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will
not believe.

John 20:30  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his
disciples, which are not written in this book:

      Another thing that strikes me is the possibility that there
      is a sign that _seems_ like it is from heaven.  Satan is a
      deceiver.  He will appear as an angel of light.  He is probably
      in the business of offering food that contains much wholesomeness
      (at least seemingly) with a pinch or two of dangerous error.
      Error is best disguised in the midst of that which is not.
    
      Just because the message is one that may appear to be as one given
      by an angel of light doesn't necessarily mean it is of God.
    
      We need discernment.  The signs and wonders which are false will
      be so deceptive as to deceive even the elect if that were possible.
    
                                                      Tony

    re .0 (MKOTS3::GELE)/Sylvain
    
>    P.S. What happens on June 10th when it doesnt come to pass? Are these
>    people who claim to have had a word from God going to do as the JW's
>    did when they were wrong, or will they ask God's forgiveness for 
>    falsely speaking on God's behalf?
    
    	When June <whatever> comes and goes without anything happening, how
    will merely asking God's forgiveness make any difference, or make these
    people any different (better?) than JWs [who have made their mistakes
    in the past and learned from them]?
    
    	Often times a person or group learns more from making mistakes than
    from being right all the time.  JWs realize that their mistakes have
    helped them learn a thing or two.  Could it be that the 'born again'
    community can't bear the thought of being human, and prone to (honest)
    mistakes, just like JWs?
    
    
    								-mark.

Hi Mark - long time! ;-)

				Andrew

    I've just been casually observing this whole thing while waiting for
    the day.  I'm not really expecting anything, but will find it
    interesting if something does happen.

    
    
    Just to re-iterate we may not know the day nor hour of the 2nd comming.
    But we will most certainly know the season. The parable of the fig tree
    is a powerful one.  

    I don't know about the year or day, but after studying the Biblical
    holy days, I think the season is probably going to be during the fall 
    holy days - somewhere during The Days of Awe which encompass Rosh 
    HaShanna and Yom Kippur.  This is the time of judgement, of the Book
    of Life, of atonement, and the closing of the Gates of Heaven. I think 
    that Succot (Feast of Tabernacles) which follows close behind Yom Kippur 
    will be the time of the wedding feast of the Lamb, and a joyous celebration 
    of being in the presence of God's Sh'kina.

    Leslie

Yes, Leslie, I had heard that too, for several reasons.  Two great events 
events occurred during two of the three high feast days on the Jewish Calendar
leaving the third open (the one you suggest).  God's symmetry and sense of
balance is uniquely perfect.

  Re .10 Mark S  (where've you been?)
  
  Hi Mark,

  > honest mistakes, just like JWs

  Uh, well, er, um, how about William Miller (a Baptist trinitarian)
  who predicted the coming of Christ around the 1840's.
  October 22, 1844?

  It was called The Great Disappointment (or something like that).

  Hank  

  > honest mistakes, just like JWs

Then again, some people let their yes be yes and their no be no
and avoid such "prophesies" but some people become convinced of
their [supposed] station.

Further, (Hank) was William Miller speaking for the Baptist denomination?

    re .16 (DNEAST::DALELIO_HENR)/Hank
    
>  Re .10 Mark S  (where've you been?)
    
    Out getting my kicks elsewhere ;-).
    
>  > honest mistakes, just like JWs
>
>  Uh, well, er, um, how about William Miller (a Baptist trinitarian)
>  who predicted the coming of Christ around the 1840's.
>  October 22, 1844?
>
>  It was called The Great Disappointment (or something like that).
    
    	How about William Miller?
    
    	As some people know, Miller's forray into the interpretation of
    Bible prophecy caught the attention of Charles Russell [the founder of
    the Watchtower Society].  Interestingly, Russell was initially quite
    loath to give much credence to such speculation.  However, Russell had
    to admit that the Bible prophecies involving chronology meant
    *something*, and eventually concluded that God would eventually help
    faithful people understand them at the right time, as long as those
    people were showing genuine interest in them in the first place.
    
    	I don't believe Miller claimed his predictions were based on fresh
    divine revelation.  I know Watchtower interpretations are not.
    
    	Are these June predictions real new prophecies, or are they
    interpretations of existing Bible prophecies?
    
    								-mark.

Well, actually 3 great events:

   * the crucifixion of the Messiah aligns with Pesach (Passover),
   * the resurrection of the Messiah aligns with the first day of Sfirot Omer 
         (the counting of the Omer, the first fruits of the first fruits - 
          barley harvest),  
   * and then the outpouring of the Spirit aligns with with Shavuot (Feast of 
          Weeks or Penetecost in Greek - which is also celebrated as Feast 
          of First Fruits - wheat harvest, and as the anniversary of God's 
          revelation to Moses at Mt. Sinai)

Some think that the Messiah's first coming aligns with Succot as well,
again, God dwelling with humanity.  This would put His birth in the autumn,
around the time of the fall lambing season.

I think that the church as a whole has lost a tremendous source for under-
standing God's relationship to humanity, how God operates, and what God's 
design for humanity is, as well as how to live in the here and now, by having 
deviated so much from the Jewish roots.  Instead of being grafted-in branches,
we have tried to become the whole vine and root.  We have not been humble 
enough in our view of our position in history, nor as married to the Tanakh 
as we should have been.  The Tanakh needs the New Testament, but the New
Testament needs the Tanakh just as much in order to be complete.  

Now we must strive to recover what has been lost, as well as try to establish 
a good relationship with the Jewish people which the church has really messed 
up through its persecution of God's chosen people, the apple of His eye, via 
the Crusades, expulsion, the Inquisition, pogroms, the holocaust, and the
things that are happening today.  These include what is happening with 
Israel - the pressure of the peace process for Israel to give up pieces of
land in exchange for what in all liklihood is the false pretense of peace, 
and even so many attempts at deciphering the end times without taking into 
the Jewish people and the Jewish faith.

Leslie

.19 was in response to .14 & .15, Mark I realize after I wrote the last 
reply that you were referring to the three pilgrimage holidays - Pesach,
Shavuot, & Succot, so yes, you're right.

Leslie

  Re .17 Mark M

  >speaking for the Baptist Denomination?

  I don't think so.

  Baptist are famous (or infamous) for their independence, even from each
  other, so I would say no. He was known more as an Adventist (one of the
  first of the modern movement).

  I believe he had something to do with the SDA Church, though Im not
  sure if we was a sabbath keeper. Any one have anymore details?

  Hank 

.21

There seems to be a difference between a person who deviates from 
a doctrinal stance while asccociated with that church (until booted out)
and the teaching of the church itself.  Because of this difference, I
thought it unfair to castigate the Baptists because of William Miller
(who I only heard of today), just as it would be unfair to castigate the
Church of the Nazarene because Jim Jones once attended a Nazarene Church
in his younger days, or because Tonya Harding went to a Nazarene church
before flying out to the Olympics.  That's called guilt by association
as opposed to guilt of the Association (by doctrinal stance).

Thanks for the clarification, Hank.

Mark

    Passover also marks the birth of the NT Church.  Hebrew folklore states
    Enoch's birth and rapture occurred around Passover.  If true, it
    wouldn't be unlike our God to rapture us around Passover.
    
    Mike

What I find most interesting is that this prophecy seems to have come from
several entirely independent sources which are very unlikely to have any
"cross-pollination" so to speak.  Not only that, but the source tell unique
sides of the same event: they appear to be different but if you closely examine
them, they are really the same event.

I would probably dismiss it almost immediately if it weren't for the fact
that it is independently corroborated by entirely different sources.

Eric

> Passover also marks the birth of the NT Church.  Hebrew folklore states
> Enoch's birth and rapture occurred around Passover.  If true, it
> wouldn't be unlike our God to rapture us around Passover.
    
The Jewish Pentecost (50 days after the 15th of Nisan), or the Christian
Pentecost (50 days after Holy Pascha, that is, Easter)?

    Actually - some schools start the counting of the omer (the 50 days) on
    the first day of Passover; some start counting on the first
    Friday/Saturday Shabbat within the Passover/Unleavened Bread week...
    
    Steve

>              <<< Note 492.25 by KOLBE::eje "Eric James Ewanco" >>>
>                      -< Jewish or Christian Pentecost? >-

>The Jewish Pentecost (50 days after the 15th of Nisan), or the Christian
>Pentecost (50 days after Holy Pascha, that is, Easter)?

I think that the anniversaries the church has chosen - Christmas, Easter, 
and its time for Pentecost are actually in error.  We should not have 
deviated from the original Biblical holy days.  I don't even care for the names
anymore: Pentecost being the least in error for a name, Easter being the most
in error for a name, Christmas in the middle, because they deviate from
what God ordained and revealed to us through the Biblical feasts.  Yes, it 
wasn't and isn't necessary for the gentile believers in Messiah to convert to 
Judaism, but by deliberately blotting out the knowledge of these days, which
God established and used to teach us about life, truth, and Messiah, we have
in fact, robbed ourselves and our children of a deep richness in understanding
God and history.

Leslie

If I come off a little strident, please forgive.  This is something that has
been growing closer and closer to my heart in recent months.  I would like to 
someday see the church change its celebrations to the Biblical days, or at 
least to know and acknowledge in some way that these days exist and understand
their significance in God's plan for creation, history, humanity, salvation, 
and restoration.  I'd like see the celebration, rememberance, and anticipation
of all that pertains to God's salvation separated from the commercial, the 
secular, and the pagan so that the full focus is on God, where it should be.  
In the meantime, I continue to celebrate Christmas, Easter, and Pentecost with
my local church and others at the normal times for the Christian church because
I am a part of community.  But my husband and I are also working to bring
awareness into our church about Pesach, Sfirot Omer, Shavuot, Rosh HaShanna,
Yom Kippur, and Succot, and also to begin to incorporate Jewish concepts of 
marriage, family, life, and worship into the church.  Its been a terrific 
journey of discovery and revelation, sometimes wonderment and awe, and 
sometimes pain to delve into this stuff.

Also, to bring this back more along the topic lines, I think a greater
knowledge and awareness of the Tanakh - the Torah, the Prophets, and
the Writings, and a greater knowledge of the history of Judaism, the
Jewish culture, and the Jewish faith - putting the Tanakh into the context
of a people, of real space-time history, and putting the New Testament 
into a continuous whole with the Tanakh which preceded it  - would help us 
all be better able to identify truth in prophecy, preaching, and teaching.  
I mean this as much for myself as anybody, I've got a long way to go, a 
lifetime of study ahead of me.  We need to arm ourselves with the proper
tools to be able sift through all that is said and claimed in the name of
God.  Prayer and diligent study of His Word will equip us so that we are
not blown about like dandelion fuzz in the wind.

Leslie

      So much here suddenly became *very* relevent to me!
    
      William Miller:
      He was a farmer who came to the conclusion based on personal 
      Bible study that Christ would come in 1844.  This movement 
      became known as the Great Awakening.  The basics of his
      prophetic interpretation was that the 70 weeks prophecy of Daniel
      was given by God to Daniel in order for him to understand the 
      beginning of the 2300 days.  Miller believed the 70 weeks were
      symbolic day = literal years and hence 490 years.  He believed
      the 2300 days were 2300 literal years of which the 70 weeks 
      composed the first segment.  He located the position of the
      70 weeks, placed the 2300 days alongside it, and concluded from
      the termination point of the 2300 days that Christ was coming.
      (The symbolic day = literal year is fundamental historicist 
      prophetic interpretation.)
    
      The 2300 day prophecy reads: "Unto 2300 days, then shall the
      sanctuary be cleansed."  Mainline Christianity at the time of
      William Miller essentially unanimously believed this event to be 
      synonymous with the second coming of Christ.  And so Miller believed 
      the same.
    
      By the way, SEVERAL individuals (and groups) completely independent
      of each other came to the same conclusion as Miller.  Pockets
      of people throughout the world (without any communication among
      each other) came to the exact same prophetic interpretation as did
      Miller and believed the 2nd coming to be ~1844 (depending upon
      where exactly the 70 weeks and thus the 2300 days were thought 
      to begin.)
    
      After the Great Disappointment, there was a splintering.  Many 
      believed it was all a hoax.  Others continued to dateset (no offense
      intended and these were the forefathers of the Witnesses).  Another
      group came to believe that the TIME ASPECT of the prophecy was
      correct, but the EVENT aspect was incorrect.  That is, they came to
      continue to believe that something took place in 1844, but what that
      something is (the beginning of the cleansing of the sanctuary) they
      concluded to be something other than the second coming.
    
      William Miller died not too long after.  He was never an Adventist,
      but he can be considered the father of Adventism (in a sense).  The
      group that continued to believe the time setting of the 70 weeks and
      of the 2300 days (as developed by Miller) to be true came to be a
      distinct denomination called Seventh-Day Adventism.
                
      I believe that God worked through William Miller, that his work was
      of God.
    
                                                    Tony

      Hi,
    
        A quickie on feastdays.  Recall that the spring feastdays 
        took place at Calvary or very shortly thereafter.  There
        are three fall feastdays; Trumpets, Yom Kippur (also known
        as the Day of Atonement), and Tabernacles.  I agree with you
        Leslie that Tabernacles is after the second coming.
    
        I suggest that not only may there be a fulfillment regarding
        time of the year, but that the sequence of the feastdays at
        least roughly coincides with the Christian era where the springs
        are at the beginning and the falls are at the tail end.
    
        Now, consider this.  Tabernacles post-second coming.  The purpose
        of Trumpets was to usher in Yom Kippur.  
    
        I just want to say that there is something about Yom Kippur and
        what that means practically to the Christian Church that is HUGE.
        Part of Yom Kippur is this event I noted previously called _the
        cleansing of the sanctuary_.  (This then seems to fit well with
        my last reply.  Check out Leviticus.  The cleansing of the
        sanctuary is the biggie event that takes place on the day of 
        atonement.  So you have this prophecy in the mid 1800's pointing
        to the cleansing of the sanctuary and now we have the sequence
        of the feastdays particularly pointing to the day of atonement
        thus pointing to the cleansing of the sanctuary.)
    
        There is something important about the cleansing of the sanctuary
        and the day of atonement.  And we don't hear much about it, do we???!
    
        Two other things pointing to nearing the time of the end.
    
        One, the reason for a seven day creation week.  There is a reason
        for everything.  God created in 7 days for a reason.  Here is what
        I believe.  Through foreknowledge, God saw the fall of man.  In
        the plan of redemption, something huge must be accomplished through
        the last generation (read Hebrews for example).  This thing that
        needs to be accomplished is accomplished by God, but He doesn't 
        force, He needs a willing people.  This suggests that God does not
        set the time.  God foresaw that a people would permit Him to work
        through them in a special way roughly after 6000 years.  Prophecy
        also points to a Sabbath millenium.  I believe the Sabbath and
        creation week are schoolmasters pointing to something God will 
        accomplish in the endtimes.  Six days of rest followed by the
        seventh (Sabbath) day.  Six time periods of a thousand years
        followed by a Sabbath time period of a thousand years.  God is 
        going to finish some work roughly after 6000 years and after it is
        finished He will say, "It is very good" [perfect].  Check the 
        context of Peter where he says a day is like a thousand years to
        the Lord.  Its illuminating.
    
        We are nearing 6000 years folks.  No datesetting here, just a 
        rough estimate.
    
        Two, "all these things happened as examples and were given for
        our admonition unto whom the ends of the earth are come."  Sinai
        was a time for a certain big shift in covenant.  A whole system
        established.  
    
        TWO THOUSAND YEARS after Sinai, Christ comes.  A tremendous shift
        in covenant takes place.  A huge resorvoir of light is injected
        into the world.  
    
        Was that change in covenant one of those things given to us for
        our admonition unto whom the ends of the earth are come?
    
        Is there a future change of covenant?  Read Hebrews...the law
        written in the heart!  A group that rests perfectly in Christ!
        A group enabled to inhabit Mount Zion!
    
        Deuteronomy pictures the latter rain as TEACHING.  And its an
        outpouring!
    
        I suggest that a shift in covenant is about to take place.  When
        we went from animal sacrifice to Christ our Lamb, we went from
        symbol to symbol.  The blood is still physical blood.  The death
        is still a physical death (largely).  
    
        A change of covenant is yet future.  One took place that was 
        something that happened for us AS AN EXAMPLE.  (A change in
        covenant would take place again.)
    
        Physical symbols will pave way to their reality that is of
        the spiritual realm.  All will apply to concepts, things of the
        heart/mind.  It won't be literal blood anymore.  It won't be a 
        physical death anymore.  A new covenant is coming.
    
        And we can expect the same reception Israel gave Christ.  That
        also serves as an example.  We can expect Christianity to do to
        this change of covenant just what Israel sought to do to the word
        of Jeremiah.
    
        Anyway...Sinai to Christ was ~2000 years.  
    
        What is Christ to our day???!
    
        Oh yes...fasten your seat belts.  There is a change coming.  The
        Spirit is going to pour truth on a willing body.  That truth will
        prepare the bride.
    
        ALL THESE THINGS were given as examples (for us).
    
                                                    Tony
    

Re: .10, .18  (Mark Sornson)

             <<< ATLANA::DUB1:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN_V6.NOTE;1 >>>
        -< See 642.* - Conference rollover, Friday 2/27 @5pm EST (USA) >-
================================================================================
Note 489.70           JWs and 1874, 1914, 1925, 1975, etc.              70 of 70
KALI::WIEBE "Garth Wiebe"                              1 line  26-FEB-1993 16:56
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Well, so much for 1874, 1914, 1925, 1975, etc.

>If I come off a little strident, please forgive.  This is something that has
>been growing closer and closer to my heart in recent months.  I would like to 
>someday see the church change its celebrations to the Biblical days, or at 
>least to know and acknowledge in some way that these days exist and understand
>their significance in God's plan for creation, history, humanity, salvation, 
>and restoration....

I am pleased that a person can get closer to God through a better understanding
of culture and history.  I believe that studying these things and understanding
them better can give a Christian a clearer appreciation of Scripture.  However,
I do have a reservation which is centered around legalism, which I do not see
but caution against as a danger in adopting any culturally-based activity,
(including the American culture and church).  And the opposing danger you
cited, which was to go so far as to become a vine unto oneself rather than
be engraften into the True Vine, needs to be heeded.

I've pondered the rightness or wrongness of doing this or doing that and 
the reasons for it.  What is the reason for religion except to convey through
generations the remembrances (rituals, which help us to remember) of God's
grace?  Think back on any ritual instituted and why.  The focus of the 
remembrance is worshipping God.  Some rituals may bring this focus more
keenly to our conscience.

Jesus told the samaritan woman that a time was coming when God wouldn't 
be worshipped "on this mountain or in Jerusalem" (proper contexts of the 
culture) "but true worshippers would worship God in spirit and in truth."
Ritual and history can enhance this and give clarity to a person, growing
them into a greater knowledge of God's character.  Ritual and history can
also be a trap of death, as some of the religious Jews "who tithe their
mint and cummin but neglect the weightier things of the law, such as justice
and mercy" and "the circumcision group" who wanted to make Jews of gentiles
before they could become Christians.  Yes, the understanding of Judaism
as it relates to Christianity is and can be very valuable to the Christian.
I'm uncomfortable with stridence, though, because the council decided not
to constrain the gentiles to Jewishness and knew and experienced the 
Spirit of God in the lives of the gentiles.  "There is neither Jew nor Greek, 
there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are 
all one in Christ Jesus."

At the core is relationship.  And grace which comes from God extends to the 
whole world (John 3:16) to those who believe (faith).  Israel was chosen as
an example to other nations; a covenant people.  Each of us is chosen, also,
in a covenant relationship to God Almighty.  How we express that relationship
may vary fairly widely.  Understanding Christ's Jewish roots can deepen that
expression if handled properly and in accordance with God's desires.

My Bible hero is Enoch.  I do not think all of us will be called to be
Moses and lead 3 million people out of slavery, or Abraham to sacrifice the
son of promise (not talking the symbolism, here), of Peter the Rock, or Paul
the Evangelist, or John the Baptist, or Elijah the Prophet, and so on.  
(In a sense we are called to be these people - in their obedience to God.)
But I like Enoch because "he walked with God" and then God took him.  I 
get a picture of two friends, God and Enoch, walking along and talking 
with each other.  One day, as they were enjoying each other's company,
God turns to Enoch and says, "Let's go back to my place; come and live with me;
I've got some really neat things I want to show you."  And they went.
Enoch was never listed as someone who DID anything special, like parting
the Red Sea, or healing anyone.  He just "walked with God."  And this
reminds me of the verse in Micah (6:8) which says, "He hath shewed thee, O man,
what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and 
to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Mark

      re -1
     
      Amen Mark.  I really appreciaqte your reply...especially what
      you said about Enoch.  I think he was taken up not real long
      before the flood by the way.  I wonder if he preached to the
      antedeluvians to repent and be spared from the flood.
    
                                                  Tony

Thanks, Tony.

    I can't remember what topic where Miller came up, but my references
    state that Sir Robert Anderson was the first to decipher Daniel's 70
    Weeks.

The basenote (476.0) apparently had some "solicitation" in it and was set 
hidden; later re-entered as 476.28 sans-soliciation.  As a side note, I am 
personally offended by out of hand religious solicitation (as I see it) 
in 99% of "christian" TV.  There's my bias, so you know.

Many things are simply not sitting right with me on this June 9 thing.


>       I bring you this morning the greatest message that the Lord God has
>  ever given me.  It is so totally powerful and glorious, and I am so humbled
>  and awed by it that I have prayed with all my heart and mean it with all my
>  soul that if any word I speak this morning is not directly from the Holy
>  Spirit of God that He would prevent me from speaking it, even by taking my
>  life if necessary, so that no word would go forth that is not His own and
>  His Word is for the whole world to hear.

He's convinced this is of the L-rd; but there is no mention of his "testing 
the spirits" re: this particular revelation.

>       I will not try to convince you, for He said that the Holy Spirit will
>  do the convincing of those who were to believe Him.  

While it's true that only G-d can convince anyone of the truth, there's an 
elitist, if not manipulative ring in my ears to this not-so-simple 
statement.

>	A few months earlier
>  the Lord showed me in a vision that Heaven was coming to earth.  

Not that He doesn't give visions; but there's a set-up here that suggests 
this man is an "antenna" of sorts and really tuned-in; ergo; his message 
deserves credibility on its face.  I don't agree with that perspective (if 
that's his tact).

>       I ask you to open your hearts and souls now and invite the Spirit of
>  the living God within the depths of your being to listen to the message He
>  gave me.  

Biblically, all believers *have* (present tense) the Spirit of the Living 
G-d within them [ref. 1Cor 6:19,20, etc.]....his statement doesn't sit well 
with me.

>       This is the startling message that He gave me, "ON THURSDAY, JUNE THE
>  9TH, I WILL RIP THE EVIL OUT OF THIS WORLD."  There was no doubt that this
>  was the voice of God speaking, 

Again - where is the "testing"?  There was no doubt?  How was there no 
doubt?  It sort of "felt" like G-d was speaking?  There is nothing 
(anywhere in the text of his sermon provided) that indicates this man 
actually tested what he thought was G-d's voice.  IMO, He should not speak 
with "no doubt" here without testing...

>but my human mind asked a question, and I 
>  asked the Lord, "Lord, you said in your Word that no man would know the
>  hour of the Second Coming."  Instantly the voice spoke and said to me, "I
>  did not say the Second Coming," and in that moment I knew it was going to
>  be a great cleansing and destruction of evil forces and powers in the world.

Here, the voice (whether G-d's or not) said nothing about "great cleansing 
and destruction of evil...".  This rings to me very much like Eve's saying 
that G-d said we couldn't eat from the tree OR EVEN TOUCH IT.   G-d's 
revelation is sufficient - if He says, "Don't eat from this tree" - that's 
what He means...if He says, "and don't touch it either", then that's fine - 
but He never said the latter.

>  It is not the Rapture, but God's Love and Glory overcoming all evil.

Fine - it's not the rapture, but this man, claiming to be sharing a 
revelation from the Almighty, has interpreted the message he recieved 
(without testing) to say that on June 9th, G-d's Love and Glory will 
overcome all evil.  If there is a single lie told, item stolen, blasphemy 
spoken, murder committed, etc. on June 10th, is this man a false prophet?

>	but on that day all men
>  will see Him as He truly is and fall on their faces before Him.  It will
>  be the fulfillment of the Scriptures that say, "Before Him every knee
>  shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

This is a statement of ENORMOUS gravity!!!  Consider what this man is 
saying!  On June 9, the Scripture will be fulfilled which says that before 
Him *EVERY* knee shall bow and *EVERY* tongue confess that He is L-rd.

If there is *one* who denies on the 10th, is this man a false prophet?

Please - understand; my heart cries out that this would actually be so - 
what a glorious thing!  But are we getting a sense for the magnitude of 
what this man is claiming G-d revealed to him?  And if this man's words 
(claming to be of G-d) do not come to pass - what then?

>	The hair on the back of
>  my neck literally stood up and the power of the Lord just shook me as I
>  stood there.

The Bible does not say to test the spirits by the physical reaction of your 
body.  How many of you have ever been totally frightened by something and 
had the hair on the back of your neck stand up?  Was that reaction brought 
about by G-d?

>       Then He spoke to me again and said,  "Read Isaiah 25, beginning with
>  verse 6."  Verse 6 speaks of the great feast prepared on the mountain of
>  the Lord, and of course the mountain is Jesus Who has prepared the great
>  forgiving love of God for the whole world.  

"...of course the mountain is Jesus..."?

Isaiah 24 speaks of the coming destruction of the earth as the L-rd punishes 
the powers in heaven and the kings of the earth (v. 21).  Then in v. 23 the 
prophet says, "The moon will be abashed, the sun ashamed; for the L_RD 
Almighty will reign *ON MOUNT ZION* and in Jerusalem, and before its 
elders, gloriously.  Then Chapter 25 starts with praise to the L-rd for who 
He is, for all He's done, and all He is to do (which is an interlude 
through 25:5, and then leads to 25:6).  The mountain in 25:6 is clear; and 
while I do not disagree that Yeshua is Himself "like" a mountain (in all 
its majesty, beauty, etc.), there is no cause to spiritualize away the 
plain meaning of this passage.

>And then in verse 7 it says,
>  "And He will destroy on this mountain the covering that is cast over all
>  peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations."  And this was a direct
>  confirmation of ripping the veil of darkness and evil out of this world.

...by his interpretation of a message he never tested.  This *may* be a 
confirmation; but we don't really know if this message is of G-d or not.  
On the other hand, it may be as much confirmation of this message as 
Yeshua's statement about reaching sheep of another fold was confirmation 
for Mormon theology.

>       Verse 8 says, "He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord God will
>  wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of HIs people He will take
>  away from all the earth; for the Lord has spoken."  I cannot tell you how
>  my heart and soul rejoiced as I read these words that we would live to see
>  the fulfillment of God's mighty promise for His people.

Again - consider the magnitude of this statement!!!

For June 9 to be all that this man says it will be; there is tremendous 
conflict with  Second Thessalonians 2.

2:3-4
	Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will
	not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness
	is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.  He will oppose and
	will exalt himself over everything that is called G-d or is
	worshipped, so that he sets himself up in G-d's Temple,
	proclaiming himself to be G-d.

2:9-11

	The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work
	of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs
	and wonders, and in every sort of EVIL that deceives those
	who are perishing.  They perish because they refused to love
	the truth and so be saved.  For this reason, G-d sends them
	a powerful delusion so that they will believe THE LIE...

So this man says that this isn't the second coming, but that G-d is going 
to "rip the evil" out of the world on June 9; yet the Bible says that there 
is still work of Satan that will be done on the earth before His coming and 
that people will be decieved by EVIL (does that sound like all men will 
have bent the knee to the L-rd?).

It does not add up as I understand the Scriptures.  And let me be quick to 
add that my understanding of the Scriptures may be flawed!  But I do not 
see how this can possibly be true.
	
>       Verse 9 says, "It will be said on that day, 'Lo, this is our God; we
>  have waited for Him, that He might save us.  This is the Lord; we have
>  waited for Him; let us be glad and rejoice in His salvation.'"  Praise God,
>  at that time, the world will truly see God in all of His perfect love and
>  glory reaching out to mankind, and I believe that millions at that time
>  will say, "This is our God!", and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
>  The cloud of unknowing and doubt will be gone and the glory of the Lord in
>  all of His love will attract millions to Him.

Now it's "millions" and not "every knee".   Which are we to believe?  And 
frankly, even millions would obviously be something to rejoice about!!!!  
But on June 10, if there is no confirmation of these millions - what about 
this prophet?

>       In verse 10, He speaks of the overcoming of all the evil, and again  
>  let me say that this is not the Second Coming, this is the revelation of the
>  power and glory of God in Jesus Christ to all the world as a great cleans- 
>  ing.

Fine - that's broad enough that we can wait until June 10 to assess what 
was meant; but what of all the specifics he gave earlier in his sermon?

>       He then referred me to Isaiah 40, verse 5, and it says, 

So far, he has displayed a habit for looking at single verses out of 
context to prove his point (which he's not really supposed to do to 
convince us).  Refer to Is. 40 1-5 to see the context of v. 5 itself.

>	As I
>  read the Scriptures, I believe there's a great difference between the day
>  Jesus is revealed and the day He comes for His people.  I believe that God
>  is coming to His people before he comes for his people.

i.e., June 9, He is "revealed" and at some future date, He'll come for His 
people.  But what about the fulfilment of "every knee" bending on June 9?  
Everyone on the planet will bend the knee, according to this prophecy.  May 
it be!  Yet, if this is not G-d's plan; from where did this 'prophecy' 
arise?  And if on June 9 everyone becomes a believer (which is the clear 
implication of his prophecy), then what of the parable of the tares and 
wheat; where Yeshua himself speaks about *not* pulling up the tares early; 
rather, to wait until the harvest, where He will give the order to pull up 
the tares to be burned, and then the wheat to be brought to His barn (more 
on this later....).

>       He referred me to Luke 17, beginning with verse 20, and it says the
>  Kingdom of God is in our midst, but we do not know it yet.  Verse 30 says,

Before he jumps to v.30, what about v. 21?

Lk 17:20-21	"Once, having been asked by the Pharisees when the
	Kingdom of G-d would come, Yeshua replied, 'The Kingdom of G-d
	does not come with your careful observation, [21] NOR WILL PEOPLE
	SAY, 'HERE IT IS', OR 'THERE IT IS', BECAUSE THE KINGDOM OF G-D
	IS WITHIN YOU.'"

Note as well 26-27

	"Just as it was in the days of Noah, so also will it be in the
	days of the Son of Man.  People were eating, drinking, marrying
	and being given in marriage up to the day Noah entered the ark.
	Then the flood came and destroyed them all."

Was there some special revelation in the time of Noah - some time when He 
"ripped the evil" out of the world prior to His deliverance?  No.  And here 
the L-rd says that it will be just that way before He comes back.  Life 
will go on as "normal"; without regard for G-d (does that sound like all 
have bent the knee?).  Did all bend the knee in Noah's time?

>       He also spoke to me concerning Matthew 13, concerning the parable of
>  the wheat and the tares, and I quote verse 41: "The Son of man will send
>  His angels, and they will gather out of His Kingdom all causes of sin and
>  all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep
>  and hnash their teeth.  THEN THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE LIKE THE SUN IN THE
>  KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER."  Praise God for the cleansing and for the pre-
>  cious shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ that takes away the sin of the
>  world!  Now that great truth is about to be revealed before the whole
>  world.

Matthew 13:41 is Yeshua's explanation, at his disciples' request (v. 36b), of 
the parable He had delivered earlier (Mt. 17:24-30).  Note that in this 
parable, The Master is asked by His servants "Do You want us to go and pull 
them (the tares growing with the wheat) up?" (v. 28b), to which the Master 
replies, "No, because while you are pulling the weeds, you may root up the 
wheat with them.  Let both grow together UNTIL THE HARVEST.  At that time I 
will tell the harvesters; First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles 
to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into My barn." (29 & 30).

Hinkle seems (from my view) to be explaining this parable in the exact 
opposite manner the L-rd Himself did.

>       Remember the message and pray with all your heart for His great
>  cleansing power to come upon the whole world and, of course, beginning with
>  each one of us who believe.  

I'll certainly remember the message and pray for His will to be done...

>"ON THURSDAY, JUNE THE 9TH, 1994, I WILL RIP THE EVIL OUT OF THIS WORLD."  

We shall see.  If what Hinkle has said actually takes place on June 9, what 
a glorious thing it will be!  Would that it were so!

However, if On June 10th, 1994, there is any evil left in the world, or so 
few as *one* person has failed to bow his knee to the L-rd in fulfillment of 
that Scripture, if the L-rd's own explanation of the parable *hasn't* 
changed and He (as He said) doesn't have the tares pulled up; then there is 
only one conclusion left to be drawn.

Indeed - May His Kingdom come and may His will be done on earth as in 
heaven.

Watchfull,


Steve

    Thanks Steve, it needed to be said.
    
    PDM_at_risk_of_laughing_in_the_face_of_June_9th_and_false_prophet[es]s

Hi,

Actually, it would be interesting to know what this man's basic theology is. ie
Is he a "Restoration" theologist?  If I have the term correct, at any rate
those who believe that the fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel "this mountain
shall fill the earth", takes place before Christ returns.  What that would 
mean is, it would be totally in line with this man's theology for God to do
something cataclysmic in order to spread the kingdom of God throughout the
earth, and establish righteousness, BEFORE Christ returns.

The essential question being: will the Son of Man find faith on earth? when He
returns.  Restoration theologists would answer with, yes.  God will establish
His kingdom throughout the earth, and Christ will return to find faith and
righteousness "ruling" on earth.  

Of course, the answer might also be, no.  ie, That when Christ returns the
world will be totally seeped in sin, the majority of the church apostate, and
just a "remnant" of true believers will be left.

I personally think that it's possible to understand eschatology such to support
both extremes, and something in the middle.  How's that for fence-sitting? :-)

Obviously, I would prefer it, if God could move such on the hearts of men that,
when Christ returns, the kingdom has already been established, and the majority
of mankind has been yearning for His return.  I would rather see the judgements
in Revelation NOT happen, but I know that God keeps His Word, regardless of 
what I would rather see.  Basically, unless God moves and brings man to repen-
tance before Christ's return, then the judgements will come.  But, God may do
something similar to that which he did with Nineveh, and that which He wanted
to do with Sodom and Gomorrah, ie be merciful.

At any rate, as of June 10th we will either have seen the great mercy of God,
and the repentance of mankind, or we'll know the names of a couple of false
prophets. 

Rob

    Thanks, Steve....good notes.
    
    
    One of the parts of the June 9 prophesy, the part about "evil will be
    ripped from the earth and EVERY knee shall bend before the Lord" (not
    an exact paraphrase, but you know which one I am talking about), never
    quite sat right with me, either.  The reason being is that this will
    not happen until judgement day, when all go before the Lord.  The
    truth will be revealed to all that day, and all will acknowledge that
    Jesus is Lord on that day...even those who rejected Him all their life.
    
    Of course, my interpretation of this event could be flawed, and perhaps
    the June 9 "prophet" may be talking of something else.
    
    In any case, there have been a few earthquakes this week around the
    Pacific rim (perhaps incorrect terminology on my part).  San Andreas is
    one large fault line on this 'rim' that hasn't buckled yet.  Just
    maybe... (yes, idle speculation agian).
    
    What if something does happen on this day, something major, yet it does
    not match up with the predictions of the "prophets"?  Could Satan be
    decieving these people so that all who listened to them will not think
    that this sign is from God, as it does not match the predicted event?
    
    More idle speculation.  8^)
    
    Satan is not called the great deceiver for nothing, though.  If
    something huge happens, that is totally different from what anyone
    thought, is it from God?  Will it be viewed differently (indifferently)
    because the "prophets" were wrong?
    
    I'm not holding my breath for anything huge to happen, nor am I going
    to try to interpret anything into an event that may occur.  I'll stick
    to prayer and let God convince me of the truth in the matter.
    
    
    BTW, had another dream last night...nothing apocalyptic, but one of
    deception.  This one isn't as clear as the others...the details are
    scattered (and once again, it is probably nothing prophetic and I don't
    claim it to be).
    
    Scattered details: deception; something being bought and sold
    criminally between nations- one or both were Asian; the number 20,000
    is very specific...and it was just the begining of something larger.
    
    I don't read much into this one, as I don't remember everything is
    quite the same detail as the first three, and what I remember is
    difficult to put into print (no, it's not dirty  8^) but there is more
    to it than what is written above).
    
    (to poke fun at this dream...I'm sure many things illegally exchange
    hands between nations on a regular basis...)
    
    -steve

Well, it's already June 9th in Sydney, Australia (12:17 am)...

    Re:  evil ripped out of the world
    
    See the end of REV 12; the dragon [satan] spews water [evil] out over
    the world. the earth aids the woman [the people of God, the Church] by
    opening and swallowing it up. In this sense, evil would be eliminated
    from among the people. This does not end the witness of Christians or
    the presence of evil. Rather, the dragon [satan], enraged at the woman
    [the Church, people of God] goes with added vengance and fury against
    all the faithful. After that comes the beast, etc.. Therefore, evil
    is removed from the earth yet it does not end evil from the Evil One
    himself in the form of other types of persecutions.
    
    I'm not saying that this is THE scriptural fulfillment of this 
    prophecy, but it is one place where I can see that evil is removed
    and yet continues in a different form/manner in scripture.
    
    re: every knee will bend
    
    The way I read this, it is Rev. Hinkle's interpretation of his own
    prophecy and not necessarily that as given by the Lord. This is a
    lower level of understanding which may be faulty because it is colored
    by human expectation. It is more like a speculation based on what was
    given.
    
    Rev. Hinkle does demonstrate another form of divine prophecy when he
    states something to the effect that he 'knew that this meant that
    God was going to come against evil'. His 'knowing' in this case is
    a prophecy; it was not received through words or visions but by 
    'infused knowledge'. This often happens when God gives a word to
    someone; more knowledge and understanding comes 'packaged' within the
    message. I have had this happen a number of times myself and I
    recognize it in the way Rev. Hinkle has described his reception of
    the message. 
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary
    

re.144

>REV 12; the dragon [satan] spews water [evil] out over the world

	Mary,

	The whole world abides in the evil one already.

	The more probable meaning of "water" in this verse is armies.

	See Isa 8:7-8; 17:12-13; Jer 46:7-9; 47:2-3

regards,
ace

    And the more probable meaning of "the woman" is the nation of Israel -
    not the Church.
    
    	BD�

>    And the more probable meaning of "the woman" is the nation of Israel -
>    not the Church.
    
Believing Israel, or unbeliving Israel?  Children of the flesh, or children of
the promise?

I do not make a distinction between the Church of Christ and Israel, for 
Scripture says that in the new covenant, they are the same. St. James even
addresses the Church of Christ as "the twelve tribes" (James 1:1).

I see the Woman as Mary, the Mother of God the Son, but also the Church of
Christ (yet those two types are closely related).  The Church pre-existed in
the Hebrew nation; but now Israel is a spiritual nation made up of all
believers in Christ: "For not all who are descended from Israel are
Israel. . . . [I]t is not the natural children who are God's children, but it
is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring."
(Romans 9:6,8)

See also 1 Peter 2:9, which was previously applied to the Hebrew people in
the book of Exodus.

Eric

    Another perspective:
    
    Israel hasn't changed; it is the natural olive tree that has received
    grafted-in branches from all other nations.  Natural branches that were
    broken off due to lack of faith are also grafted back in to the natural
    olive tree by the Master Gardener.
    
    (or maybe this too is semantics?)

� See also 1 Peter 2:9, which was previously applied to the Hebrew people in
� the book of Exodus.

Exodus 19:5 
  "If you obey Me fully and keep my covenant, then out of all the nations 
   you will be my treasured possession.  Although the whole earth is mine, 
   you will be for me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation."

Lost by Israel as a nation at the fall via the golden calf, but retained by 
the Levites by their faithful dedication to the LORD in Exodus 32:26...29.

This is an exciting fulfillment of Jacob's prophecy about Levi in Genesis 
49:5-7.  The violence of Levi and Simeon in Genesis 34 25-30 brought the 
curse; the faithfulness of the Levites in Exodus 32:26-29 turned it into 
a blessing - cf Deuteronomy 18:2.

Praise the LORD for turning cursing into blessing for us too, by becoming 
the curse of Deuteronomy 21:23.

							Andrew

  Re the Woman of Revelation clothed in heavenly light
 
  Here is one of the few places where God is symbolized in the feminine
  gender.
 
  The woman is the Spirit of God who gives birth to the children of God

  We (the Children of God) are *begotten* of the Father and *born* of the
  Spirit.

  Hank

�                   <<< Note 492.50 by DNEAST::DALELIO_HENR >>>

�  Re the Woman of Revelation clothed in heavenly light
 
Referring to the woman of Revelation 12:1..., I would identify her with 
Israel, because of the sun moon & 12 stars parallel with Genesis 37:9, and 
the following events...

 - but have to rush.  later, as someone says ;-)

						Andrew

  
  Re Genesis 37:9

  An allegory of the Church, especially the Church of the book of Hebrews :

  The Church of the Firstborn, the church in the Wilderness.


  Hank

Rev 12:1: The Church and Mary

Mary is a type of the Church; both bring Christ to the world.

  Re: the heavenly woman of Revelation 12

  See also Galatians 4

  But the Jerusalem above is free, which is the *mother of us all*...
 
  Now we brethren as Isaac was are the children of promise
  but as he who was born according to the flesh, then persecuted
  him who was born *according to the Spirit*, even so it is now...

  So then brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman 
  but of the free (woman).

  Hank

re last dozen

	Well, now that that's settled we can go to something else...  8*)

�           <<< Note 492.55 by LEDS::LOPEZ "A River.. proceeding!" >>>

;-)

:*)

"We never claimed to understand women."

:*)

      For a sober thought...
    
      We've had appromximately as many interpretations as individual's
      entering replies.  
    
      We are confused.  Babylon is in us.
    
                                                 Tony

 Eh?

�      We are confused.  Babylon is in us.

Now that is one interpretation I am totally confident in rejecting....  And
am also confident that the bros who have different ideas from me on facets
of eschatological interpretation would be correct in rejecting.

No bondage here ... He has broken our chains - Hallelujah!

							Andrew

�      We are confused.  Babylon is in us.

Ditto, Andrew.  Piecing out Revelation is a bit different than Matthew,
Mark, Luke, and John.  And in the end, who cares?  I mean it is like 
watching the taped rerun of a sports event when you already know the 
outcome (1-0; God wins).

MM

>it is like 
>watching the taped rerun of a sports event when you already know the 
>outcome (1-0; God wins).

:-) :-) :-) :-)

"False prophets" appears to be apropos about now.

Life goes on -- c'est la vie.

      Its my own personal belief that all of the Bible is ultimately
      a revelation of the gospel.  Being in bondage to Babylon and
      being Babylon are two different things.  
    
      In Jeremiah's day, Israel needed to know their spiritual 
      condition.  They refused to believe it, but spiritually they
      were in bondage.  Their captivity to Babylon was just a physical
      object lesson letting them know.  It was almost impossible for
      Israel to believe they really were in bondage.  They even sought
      alliance with Egypt!
    
      And I am sure we have a different understanding of what it means
      to be free.  I have assurance that were I to die today, I would
      see Jesus' face at the time of the resurrection.  I am His.
    
      But, my chains are sin itself.  I am not free from sin.  It is 
      still in my heart.  God willing, the time will come when I will
      be free and I can see God's face without a Mediator.  No more
      veil.  No, I am not free.  I am still a sinner.  I am saved.  I
      am pardoned.  But, there is a freedom God longs to give me that I
      presently lack.  Freedom from sin in my experience.
    
                                                  Tony

    Tony,
    
    If you are a believer, sin is *not* in your heart.
    
    No time (sorry) to continue the thought...see what Bing and I were
    writing about yesterday for starters....
    
    Steve

    See Also - Romans 6 (the whole chapter, but particutlarly vs. 2,7,11)
    and Romans 8:1-2.
    
    Bing

      Hi Steve,
    
        I appreciate what you said...I know you meant to comfort.
        I know Jesus looks at me though I were spotless, but I also
        know that I have sinned in the past and do sin.
    
        Perhaps a terminology disconnect?
    
        Maybe I should call it something else.  The meaning behind
        the term is this...
    
        I am still a sinner.  My mind sometimes consents to sin.
    
        Give that whatever term you want to Steve.  That is the condition
        I refer to.  That is the deliverance I seek.  I seek deliverance
        from ever sinning again.  I seek knowing God's love so well that
        I just drink it in and its so good that I just keep on drinking 
        and certain things I now do today appear as very dim next to what
        I'm into.  I seek knowing the motivating force of God's love so
        well that my sinful flesh is entirely in subjection to Him and I
        find it impossible to sin against my Lord.
    
        That is the only deliverance I seek.  I feel at this moment that
        if it were possible, I would rather be eternally lost and glorify
        God by perfect obedience rather than be saved and still falling
        now and then.
    
                                                   Tony
    

re.68 Tony,

> I seek deliverance from ever sinning again.

	Never happen in this life. Accept that and accept the blood. 

	The deliverance you need is from that objective. 

ace 

�                     <<< Note 492.65 by YIELD::BARBIERI >>>

Hi Tony,

�      Its my own personal belief that all of the Bible is ultimately
�      a revelation of the gospel.

Beware of private revelation!!!! :

2 Peter 1:20 :
	"Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any
	 private interpretation."

Meanwhile, a word of comfort.  This particular view is not your private 
belief; it is commonly taught amongst Bible believers, starting with Jesus 
in Luke 24:27 on the Emmaus road!

� In Jeremiah's day, Israel needed to know their spiritual condition.

The reason for the way God reached out to mankind throughout the Old 
Testament was to SHOW them that :
	� Man is fallen 
	� He cannot, in his own strength even begin to live up to the minimum
	  level of law God revealed (cf Matthew 5:17-48, Romans 7:7, etc)
	� Each individual NEEDS God's grace and intervention to effect the 
	  work of salvation
	  
Then God stepped in, in the person of the LORD Jesus Christ, in answer to
the awareness He awoke in people's hearts.  A sort of anticipation of
Matthew 23:39: "...you will not see Me again until you say 'Blessed is he
who comes in the name of the LORD'", and an answer to that early heart cry 
which Job was brought to express, in Job 9:33 "If only there were someone 
to arbitrate between us, to lay his hand upon us both..."

� I have assurance that were I to die today, I would see Jesus' face 
� at the time of the resurrection.  I am His.

I have the assurance that departing this life means instant presence with 
the LORD.  If you can't take the example of the theif on the cross, there's 
verses like Philippians 1:23 "I desire to depart and be with Christ,  which 
is far better...".  Not "...desire to go into hibernation state until the 
time comes to go hyper.", but "depart and be with Christ".  this is not 
dependent upon the resurrection of the body (a later fulfillment), but 
instant ecstacy....

While your hunger to live without sin is commendable, and is echoed in the
heart of everyone who loves God, the expression comes over as if you were 
living in defeat because of 'this mortal body of sin', rather than in the 
joyful anticipation of the fulfillment of what He has promised.

While Paul could say, in Romans 7:15 :
  "For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but
   what I hate, that do I."
	 - experiencing the struggle in the flesh, he could also walk in 
the depth of joy of God's revelation,  showing us how to live the life of 
victory, as in Philippians 4:8 :
  "Finally brother, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right,
   whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable - if anything
   is excellent or praiseworthy - think about such things.  Whatever you have
   learned or heard from me or seen in me - put into practice.  And the God of
   peace will be with you." 

Don't bemoan yuor faillings; rejoice in His successes.  Focussing on Him 
melts the old life out of sight.  The slightest sin hurts more, because it 
is interrupting a communion so much more important, but as soon as 
recognised, it can be dealt with 'keeping short accounts', preparing you 
for His work at the next level...  The fact that completion isn't achieved 
by no means belittles the stage of the work within which God has now 
brought us to.

						God bless
							Andrew

      Re: .69
    
      Hi Ace,
    
        It must happen to some generation before Christ comes.
        Read Hebrews!  Some group...
    
               rests perfectly in Christ
    
               Receives the covenant of the law written in the heart
    
               is able to inhabit Mount Zion
    
        Hebrews is talking about perfection.  And this perfection is
        necessary (Heb. 11:39,40).
    
      re: .70
    
      Hi Andrew!,
    
        Thanks for the encouraging words!  I'll try not to 'privately
        interpret'!  No sense getting into when I'll see my Lord, but
        I still believe I won't see Him when I'm dead; I'll see Him
        when He makes me alive again (provided I'm not translated).
    
                                              Thanks,
    
                                              Tony

      Hi,
    
        I'm not being facetious here.  Did anything happen on
        June 9?  Anything that could be construed as a fulfillment
        of this prophecy?
    
                                               Tony

     >>I know Jesus looks at me though I were spotless, but I also
     >>know that I have sinned in the past and do sin.
     >>I am still a sinner.  My mind sometimes consents to sin.
    
    Tony, I can find no place in the new testament where a Christian is
    refered to as a sinner.  God calls us Saints!  Scripture refers to 
    NON-Christians as sinners.  We are saints who sometimes sin, not sinners.  
    As a new creature in Christ, I am righteous.  It is my NATURE to perform 
    righteous acts, if I sin I am going against my new nature.  A sinner is 
    enslaved to sin, he has no choice in the matter.  We, however, as born 
    again believers, have to choose to sin.  
    
    The important thing that I have to remind myself of, is the goal of the 
    Christian life is NOT to stop sinning.  We have become overly sin conscious
    in the church today, instead of being focused on Christ.  The goal of the
    Christian life is to know God and the power of His resurrection and the 
    fellowship of His suffering.  In John 17:3, Christ states that eternal 
    life is knowing God.  Its by grace that we have been saved, and that not 
    of ourselves, it is a gift from God (Eph 2:8,9).  If Jesus looks at me as 
    spotless, why do I look at myself as anything else?  Satan wants us to 
    measure our Christian life on OUR performance, and to measure that 
    performance by the law.  The purpose of the law, however, has already been 
    fulfilled when we come to know Christ in a personal way.  We have already 
    been freed from the law. (Rom. 6:7, 8:2).  After that the law becomes the 
    "power on sin" I Cor. 15:56 (it actually produces that which we are trying 
    to stop!).  Paul exhorted the Galatians in Gal 5:1- It is for freedom that 
    Chist has set us free...do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke 
    of slavery.  Rom 6:11 says, " Even so, consider yourselves to be dead to 
    sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus".  In other words,  It's true - 
    consider it to be so".  We no longer have to be shackled to a yoke of 
    slavery.  We are free in Christ.  Christ says in Matt 11:28,30, "Take My 
    yoke upon you...for My yoke is easy and my Burden is light".  The Christian
    life is not meant to be a struggle, but its walking through life in the 
    arms of our loving heavenly Father in a dependent relationship to Him.
    
    Love in Christ,
    
    Bing                                           

 
 Paul refers to himself as "chief sinner" 





 Jim

    re: did anything happen
    
    Well, for me something happened.  I became more aware of the
    fact that I need to be prepared.  The prophecy spoke of making
    people aware of their sins so they may repent.  And that is
    what the prophesy did for me personally.  I don't see it as
    an actual cataclismic (sp?) event that transformed the world
    and I didn't personally see anyone on their knees, except
    for me in the privacy of my own home.  But, I feel that
    these prophesies, false or not spoke to me.  Yesterday, I
    was acutely aware that something might happen and I was
    excited for it and I want to feel that way everyday....he
    could come at anytime.  
    
    I don't know if anyone else felt this way but I'm glad
    that I had the chance to realize my own failings in this
    area.
    
    Pam

    Re: .74
    
    I can't remember exactly where the passage you're referring to is (and
    I just have a Daily Walk bible at the office), but wasn't Paul
    referring to himself in the past tense in that passage?  I believe he
    was talking about the fact that before he came to know Christ, he
    followed the letter of the law closer than anyone, but yet he still
    came up short of the requirement of obeying all of the law.  Even
    though he was the "chief sinner", he still needed the grace of God.
    
    In Paul's letters, he starts out writing to the Saints at [fill in the
    blank].  Was this because they no longer sinned?  No, it was because
    they had been justified by faith in a living Christ!
    
    Bing

Bing, I'm very much with you in the essence of what you are saying.  I
completely agree that focusing solely on stopping sinning will get us
nowhere, that is what the Jews tried to do under the first covenant, and the
New Testament is clear that to try to follow that way leads to condemnation
and death.  We need to focus on Christ living in us, and let our sinful
selves fall away as we seek after him.

But I believe you are going too far with it, by denying the reality that
while we are here in this life we will continue to struggle against our
earthly, sinful natures.  We may be just beginning that struggle, and the
earthly nature may be strong.  Or we may have been seeking to live in Christ
for many years, and it may have grown very weak.  But we will not be free of
it in this life.

This is Paul, in Romans 7:14-25, speaking in the present tense:

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to
sin.  I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but
what I hate I do.  And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law
is good.  As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living
in me.  I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.
For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out.  For
what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do --
this I keep on doing.  Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer
I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 

So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with
me.  For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at
work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and
making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members.  What a
wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death?  Thanks be to
God -- through Jesus Christ our Lord!  So then, I myself in my mind am a
slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin. 

    re: .75
    
    You are not alone in this. 
    
    I think maybe some prophesies are not what we think/want/expect them to
    be. 
    
    I'm not saying that this was a true prophesy given by God...neither am
    I saying it wasn't.
    
    
    -steve 

1Timothy 1:15 
 "This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, 
  that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of 
  whom I am chief."

In :13 he had referred to his past life as a blasphemer, persecutor of 
Christians, and a violent man

�    I just have a Daily Walk bible at the office), but wasn't Paul

You're welcome to an on-line concordance.  (Details elsewhere in this 
conference)

      Hi Bing and Mr Weiss (Paul?),
    
        Thank you very much for your replies.  Bing, I especially
        appreciate your encouraging to focus on Christ and not on
        self.
    
        Back to the prophecy.  I concur with Bob Poland.  The expecta-
        tion of a prophecy in and of itself may have been a blessing,
        but I don't think there is any real fulfillment to this June 9
        thing.  Again, I'm not being facetious...you'd think it would
        have been of enough magnitude to be reported by the media.
    
                                                 Tony

    Paul,
    
    I didn't mean to imply that I've got sin licked.  Satan will always do
    everything in his power to get me to live according to my old
    programming (flesh) and occasionaly I will sin, but I am now "in Christ" 
    and its not my "nature" to sin anymore (for an interesting study, count
    the number of I, me's, and my's in Romans 7 and go back and count the
    number of Holy Spirits, Jesus Christ, and Gods).  I am a Saint who 
    sometimes sins.
    
    Will my behavior always match my identity (who I am)?  Absolutely not. 
    but I don't have to be stuck in Romans 7, either.  When I blow it, I
    can confess my sin, accept the forgiveness that Christ has already
    provided me, and come boldly & confidently before the throne in my time
    of need.  I can get on with living a victorious "spirit controlled"
    life, as described in Romans 8, 12:1,2.  Only by "considering myself
    dead to sin, and alive to God in Christ Jesus" (abiding in Christ) can
    I experience this kind of life.
    
    Bing

Christian perfection means to be *completed* for the purpose of intent,
and NOT without scratch, dent, or human frailty.  

Just remember that when we come to Christ, we are saved, but we must also
"work out our salvation."  How do these two conditions co-exist?  It is the
difference between being born and living: both are alive but they each deal with
different aspects of living.  So, too, does being saved (AND BEING PERFECT)
have different aspects, as different as being born and living are to life.

When Jesus takes us home to that place He has prepared, He will clothe
us with incorruptible immortality and then all aspects of being alive, 
being saved, and being perfect will be brought into one.

Philippians 1:6  Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath
begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Mark

      re: -1
    
      Hi Mark,
    
        Again, I don't want terminology to be a cause for misunderstanding.
    
        What I am talking about is what you are saying perfection is not.
        And I do believe the Bible is calling a people to that.
    
                                                Tony

    on the false prophet topic...
    
    Apparently, G-d did not "rip the evil out of the world" (plenty of
    examples of evil left in our newspapers well after the 9th), nor did
    the Scripture saying that every knee would bow and every tongue confess
    that He is L-rd become a reality on the 9th as 'prophesied'.
    
    I shudder to think about this, but this man is clearly not a prophet of
    G-d; and yet, has presumed to speak a word in His Name.
    
    May G-d have mercy,
    
    
    Steve

    I think there are enough warnings regarding the last days about "do not
    be deceived" to get the point across that there would be many false
    prophets that would even decieve the elect, if that were possible. 
    Since there are so many warnings about this, we have to be of a mind
    that none of us are safe from being fooled.  This could happen by
    putting too much faith in a powerful Christian figure (pastor,
    "prophet", visionary, etc.) and not concentrating enough on the
    perfecter of our faith, Jesus.
    
    The Bible is a book of understatements..something that you shouldn't
    over-look when reading it, or divining truth from it to apply to your
    lives.  For a long time, reading the prophesies and warnings of
    deception, I thought that I would somehow be immune to being deceived
    since I was a Christian, but Jesus specifically addresses His deciples
    in the very first sentence of His longest prophesy to "do not be
    deceived" (which specifically deals with the end of the age.  Such 
    warnings are many.  This leads me to believe that even
    if we believe ourselves to be mature Christians (something I lay no
    claim to personally), we are not immune to being deceived by Satan's
    trickery.  We must be ever vigilant in discerning the truth.
    
    I've found myself trying to put more weight into certain events,
    subconsciously, to fit them into some preconceived mold of the last
    days.  I've rebuked myself on this, and plan to be more careful to
    discern the truth that God has placed into my heart.  This just show
    that excitement of the coming of the Lord can be used against us if
    we are not careful.  Be vigilant, discerning, and skeptical of modern
    day prophets...as the Lord has told us that many shall come in His name
    in the last days to try and fool even the elect (though this can be
    done in many ways, I think false prophesy can be one of them).  In this
    day, we must be VERY cautious, as the number of false prophets- very
    believable and trustworthy people, in some cases- will increase
    dramatically.   Some of these could very well be well-meaning
    Christians who believe they are receiving word from God.  What better
    form of trickery could Satan use?
    
    I think the general  signs we are seeing today- ever increasing number
    of earthquakes, famine, false prophets, wars and the polarization of
    the wheat and chaff says enough on its own.  I'm not sure knowing exact
    dates of future prophesy fulfillment is even beneficial to us...knowing
    teh time draws near should be enough (and keeping watch, as the Bible
    tells us to).
    
    
    As I said before, the wording of the June 9 prophesy seems to refer to
    the final judegement that comes after the 1000 year reign of
    Christ (if I have my timing right).  "rip evil out of the world" "every
    knee shall bow..", refer to the ending of the universe as we know it,
    before God remakes the heavens and the earth.  Obviously, believers
    know who the Lord is and already have their knee bowed to Him in their
    heart, so when the scripture mentions that "every knee shall bow", it
    speaks of those who refused all their life to bow to Jesus, making Him
    Lord of their life.  They will accept their punishment knowing the full
    truth, and knowing that they have been justly sentenced.
    
    
    When the wording was explained further (the June 9 thing), I understood
    it to mean some miraculous sign from God- either disaster or an
    eye-opening event that enlightens those on the fence (so to speak).
    I have not yet seen such an event...which should be very obvious to a
    believer who is keeping watch.
    
    I've been praying on this a lot lately, and have come to the conclusion
    that this prophesy was not from God.  Even the devil knows what is to
    come, though in a limited way.  If you wish to see his work, look to
    all the astrologers and modern-day prophets that are very accurate on
    many different events that they could only have known with supernatural
    assistance.  Problem is, they are also wrong in many prophesies, which
    is a sign that they do not recieve supernatural help from God, but from
    another (God isn't ever wrong).
    
    As much as I would've like to have had the June 9 prophesy be confirmed
    to me, I cannot let that wish color the truth.  God has not confirmed
    anything to me, and has lead me to believe that this was not His
    prophesy...earhquake or no.  Earthquakes seem to be a specialty of
    modern-day false prophets, if you have read about the many psychics and
    astrologers who predict them with alarming accuracy.
    
    Such things are also spoken of in God's word.  I specifically remember
    a passage concerning the end times that state that it will be "a time
    like that of Noah before the flood" (paraphrased).  In Noah's time,
    there was an epidemic of degredation, as well as many astrologers and
    mediums (sp?).   We are well down this road today.  Just look to the
    myriad number of occult practices that are becoming more and more
    popular each day.
    
    
    -steve

      Hi,
    
        My burden (which I have mentioned a few times) is that before
        Christ comes, there will be a tremendous injection of truth 
        into the church.  Ultimately, rejection of God will not come
        about by walking away from presently known ideas, it will come
        as in the day of Christ.
    
        When Christ came, one could not adhere to (what was until that
        time) the gospel as it had been understood for centuries. 
        Rejection came when more light was made available and the
        'status quo' was held onto.
    
        The Spirit comes like a "still small voice."  When Elijah came,
        the word he gave was rejected.  There was no rain.  The abundance
        of fruit which the rain could produce was unavailable for his word
        was rejected.   The church remained lukewarm as is Laodicaea.
    
        The change in covenant which Hebrews predicts (and clearly
        enunciates as being future to the cross and apocalyptic) will only
        come about with a corresponding change in understanding.  As Daniel
        said, "Knowledge will increase."  (I'm not saying other things are
        not important.)
    
        Its that word of Elijah, that word of Jeremiah, that increase of
        knowledge that will separate at the last day.  For then, faith will
        be the only anchor.  Tradition alone will not accept.  One brought
        up Christian (by basis of his Christian _education_ alone) will not
        be any more prepared to receive the transformation than a Hindu who
        walks by faith in what little light has been afforded him.  
                   
        There is a transformation coming.  The magnitude of which is typed
        by the transformation that took place in Christ's day ("ALL these
        things happened as examples...").
    
        Only faith will be the sight that can discern anything in the 
        still small voice of the transition of covenant forecast by the
        book of Hebrews.
    
        The overwhelming delusion is the position to hold onto what we 
        have and refuse the light God longs to give His people.  
    
                                                    Tony
    

>        My burden (which I have mentioned a few times) is that before
>        Christ comes, there will be a tremendous injection of truth 
>        into the church.  Ultimately, rejection of God will not come
>        about by walking away from presently known ideas, it will come
>        as in the day of Christ.
    
    There is no more truth in the church than Christ Jesus as Savior. I
    believe that to even interject such a supposition is rather bold and
    perhaps falls in line with false prophecy.  
    
    
       
>        The Spirit comes like a "still small voice."  When Elijah came,
>        the word he gave was rejected.  There was no rain.  The abundance
>        of fruit which the rain could produce was unavailable for his word
>        was rejected.   The church remained lukewarm as is Laodicaea.
    
    The Spirit can be a still small voice, but it can also be as tongues of
    fire in Acts 2.  Spirit empowers a person, as well as calms, comforts
    and brings peace to a person's inner being.
    
    
>        The change in covenant which Hebrews predicts (and clearly
>        enunciates as being future to the cross and apocalyptic) will only
>        come about with a corresponding change in understanding.  As Daniel
>        said, "Knowledge will increase."  (I'm not saying other things are
>        not important.)
    
    Knowledge did increase... it increased unto Christ.  What do you think
    the knowledge is about?  God has revealed all the Truth we need to do
    that which is important... receive Christ.  Further knowledge will come
    when we meet Him face to face... then we will understand that which is
    not understandable in our humanity.
    
    
>        Its that word of Elijah, that word of Jeremiah, that increase of
>        knowledge that will separate at the last day.  For then, faith will
>        be the only anchor.  Tradition alone will not accept.  One brought
>        up Christian (by basis of his Christian _education_ alone) will not
>        be any more prepared to receive the transformation than a Hindu who
>        walks by faith in what little light has been afforded him.  
    
    Tradition has never been acceptable in the sight of God for salvation. 
    That was the purpose of Christ to bring in all Truth.  Take a look at
    the book of John, Jesus speaks the "Truth"and even identifies himself
    as the Truth in John 8:32.  I count 24 times alone in John that Jesus
    spoke of the Truth.
    
    I'd say that Tradition has little to do with faith and that to compare
    a Hindu who does not accept the deity of Jesus "alone" to a Christian
    who has faith is like comparing Martin Luther King to Malcolm X.
    
                   
>        Only faith will be the sight that can discern anything in the 
>        still small voice of the transition of covenant forecast by the
>        book of Hebrews.
    
    The transition of Hebrews is from the law into Faith through Christ. 
    This transformation happens each time a lost soul receives Jesus as
    their Savior.  It's happened yesterday, is happening now and will
    happen until Jesus comes again.
    
    
    
>        The overwhelming delusion is the position to hold onto what we 
>        have and refuse the light God longs to give His people.  
    
    The overwhelming delusion is the lack of faith that even Christians
    have in this world today... God has given the light of the Universe to
    us already... Jesus Christ.  It is knowing him fully and abiding as in
    John 15... that is knowing the fullness of the Gospel.. learning to
    abide.
    
    Abide = to remain, to dwell with, to endure...
    
    That is the secret of living a Christian life to its fullest... the
    Truth, the Light is already available.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy    
    
    

>   Tradition has never been acceptable in the sight of God for salvation. 
>   That was the purpose of Christ to bring in all Truth.  Take a look at
>   the book of John, Jesus speaks the "Truth"and even identifies himself
>   as the Truth in John 8:32.  I count 24 times alone in John that Jesus
>   spoke of the Truth.
    
>   I'd say that Tradition has little to do with faith and that to compare
>   a Hindu who does not accept the deity of Jesus "alone" to a Christian
>   who has faith is like comparing Martin Luther King to Malcolm X.

Without attempting to start another rathole ...

Jesus did indeed bring in all truth, and he entrusted it to His Church
(1 Tim 3:15), and promised His Spirit would teach them all things and remind
them of his teaching forever (John 14:26).  Scripture does speak positively
of tradition:

"Hold fast to the traditions which you received, whether by word of mouth or
by letter" (2 Thes 2:15).

"And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God,
which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it
actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe." (1 Thes
2:13) 

"It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness,
than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that
was passed on to them." (2 Peter 2:21)

"He who listens to you, listens to me; he who rejects you, rejects me, and he
who rejects me, rejects Him who sent me" (Luke 10:16).

While I am sure you would not condescend to agree with me on the place of
tradition, I don't think, Scripturally, you have a leg to stand on if you
dismiss it out of hand as completely contrary to the Gospel.

I might add that someone who despises Tradition is forced to teach the 
opposite, that is, new and novel ideas which have no history in the Christian
church and disagree with what other Christians have taught.   This is a
recipe for failure! Did Christ intend for us to revise our doctrine frequently
so as to avoid following "Tradition"?

Eric

    .89
    
    Hold fast to the Traditions... is used quite frequently to espouse
    doctrines not in the Bible... these kinds of traditions are contrary to
    Christ imho.  This is that which I speak of in my note as being
    unaceptable to God.  Well, actually, when I think about... holding fast
    to traditions does not save you... again, I must state that any
    tradition whether Biblical or not does not lead to salvation... only
    faith in Christ.
    
    :-)
    
    Oh well, I tried to agree somewhat. 
    
    Your Sis,
    Nancy

>   Tradition has never been acceptable in the sight of God for salvation. 

True.

>   I'd say that Tradition has little to do with faith...

Not so true.  Tradition is one facet of support to faith.  Very few of us 
can attest to a faith without tradition.  I repost some information on this 
very type of subject:

John Wesley has a "quardalateral sources of authority" (and the scholars
in here can help me out) for determine what Truth is when it is in question.

1. The Word
2. Tradition
3. Reason
4. Experience

The trouble is that many of us want to zip on past 1, 2, and 3, and rely on
number 4.  Nothing is Truth that contradicts the tenor of Scripture.

But Scripture is interpreted.  Anyone who says we rely on the word of God
and the Word only has their interpretation of the Scripture.  So these other
pieces come into play, remembering the *hierarchy.*  An interpretation CANNOT
contradict the tenor of Scipture and be held as a truth.

"Tradition" is claimed by some, and should not simply mean "the unbroken
succession" of an orgainzation.  The one, holy, catholic, and apostolic
church of Jesus Christ is not limited to an organization. The church is One 
in Jesus, holy in that it belongs to God not men, catholic in that it is 
worldwide; universal, and apostolic in that it has not varied from what 
the disciples taught.  

Reason is given to change with the debasement of humanity and only
more fleeting is personal experience.  Yet, when they affirm the tradition
which affirms the Word, they then can be trusted, for none of these four
points of the quadralateral are sufficient alone, but taken together,
provide a mechanism by which we, as humans, can interpret the Truths
that pre-exist the law.

    I don't agree with you on this one Mark.  I've seen faith from those
    who have no traditional background in religion.  
    
    It kind of blows of the steps... imho.

>I've seen faith from those who have no traditional background in religion.  
    
Really?  From where did they get their faith (that you have witnessed)?
How was the word delivered to them?  Did these people have no tradition
either?  Tradition is not merely ritual that is performed and remembered,
Nancy.  Tradition is the Calvinist's interpretation on predestination,
for example, or the belief that Mary only had one child.  

Mark

      Hi,
    
        I am not saying tradition (because it is tradition) is bad.
        I am just saying that sometimes people do adhere to tradition
        even when it is meant to be a precursor to something else.
        An obvious example is the tradition of the sacrificial system.
    
        Nance, the position I put forth is scriptural; not prophetic.
        Daniel's reference to knowledge increasing (its context) was
        endtime.  Deuteronomy likens the latter rain to teaching.  The
        entire context of Hebrews is perfection.  The covenant of the
        law being written in the heart is just one of four ways the
        author points to something apocalyptic.  The other three being
        resting perfectly in Christ, transition of compartment in 
        heavenly sanctuary, and inhabiting Mount Zion.
    
        In contrast with your interpretation of the covenant, Hebrews 
        refers to it as an endtime event and a corporate event.  It is
        a BODY which is described as inhabiting Mount Zion.  
    
        Nance, its all a matter of interpretation and I am definitely
        seeing Hebrews say different things than you are.  An example
        being the entire illustration of Mount Zion.  When this event
        takes place...we're talking some bigtime things you haven't even
        hinted at.  
    
        The position that there is not a big amount more truth yet revealed
        (to me) smacks of the same mistake Israel made.  This example of
        tradition serves as an example.
    
                                                       Tony

      Correction: in my last reply, in the last sentence, I meant
      to say that this TRANSITION (not tradition) serves as an
      example to us.
    
                                               Tony

    Sure, I can give you an example... but I sure hope we are mincing
    words just to come around to agreement.
    
    The folks in Haiti that are lead to Christ by the missionaries.
    
    The average american walking on the street who doesn't even know the
    story of Jonah and Whale, and when presented the gospel, by faith
    receives Christ as Savior.
    
    

>    The folks in Haiti that are lead to Christ by the missionaries.

The folks in Haiti are led to Christ because of the Word and tradition
of the missionaries who also have come to their convictions by 
reason and experience of new birth through the Holy Spirit.  The
Hatians you refer to receive the tradition from the missionaries.
They will be taught about Jonah and the big fish at some time, and
perhaps the doctrine of predestination, too.

Mark

    We are mincing words... 
    
    Okay. :-)
    
    Love ya,
    Nancy