| By the way, the punishment in 1 Chronicles 21 is especially curious, if you
have not read it. It wasn't for his adultery with Bathsheba, or his planning
the murder of Uriah the Hittite. David's crime? He numbered the men in
Israel.
To the outsider, (and to many insiders: Christians) they scratch their heads
and wonder what the big deal was. Does this crime fit the punishment?
What do you think? David says "Go, number Israel from Beersheba even to Dan;
and bring the number of them t o me, that I may know it." Soon after he
is overcome with guilt and says "I have sinned greatly, because I have done
this thing; but now, I beseech thee, do away the iniquity of thy servant;
for I have done very foolishly."
God offers one of three forms of punishment for David to chose. Because
of David's numbering, 70,000 men died because of a pestilence the Lord sent
(1 Chronicles 21:14).
17 And David said unto God, Is it not I that commanded the people to be
numbered? even I it is that have sinned and done evil indeed; b ut as for
these sheep, what have they done? let thine hand, I pray thee, O Lord my God,
be on me, and on my father's house; but not on thy people, that they should be
plagued.
27 And the Lord commanded the angel; and he put up his sword again into the
sheath thereof.
28 At that time when David saw that the Lord had answered him in the
threshingfloor of Ornan the Jebusite, then he sacrificed there.
Comments?
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| Logos Bible Software
Hebrews 12:1-29
Hebrews 12
1. Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let
us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles,
and let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us.
2 Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who
for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat
down at the right hand of the throne of God.
3 Consider him who endured such opposition from sinful men, so that you will
not grow weary and lose heart.
4. In your struggle against sin, you have not yet resisted to the point of
shedding your blood.
5 And you have forgotten that word of encouragement that addresses you as
sons: "My son, do not make light of the Lord's discipline, and do not lose
heart when he rebukes you,
6 because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and he punishes everyone he
accepts as a son."
7. Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as sons. For what son
is not disciplined by his father?
8 If you are not disciplined (and everyone undergoes discipline), then you
are illegitimate children and not true sons.
9 Moreover, we have all had human fathers who disciplined us and we
respected them for it. How much more should we submit to the Father of our
spirits and live!
10 Our fathers disciplined us for a little while as they thought best; but
God disciplines us for our good, that we may share in his holiness.
11 No discipline seems pleasant at the time, but painful. Later on, however,
it produces a harvest of righteousness and peace for those who have been
trained by it.
12. Therefore, strengthen your feeble arms and weak knees.
13 "Make level paths for your feet," so that the lame may not be disabled,
but rather healed.
14. Make every effort to live in peace with all men and to be holy; without
holiness no one will see the Lord.
15 See to it that no one misses the grace of God and that no bitter root
grows up to cause trouble and defile many.
16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a
single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
17 Afterward, as you know, when he wanted to inherit this blessing, he was
rejected. He could bring about no change of mind, though he sought the
blessing with tears.
18. You have not come to a mountain that can be touched and that is burning
with fire; to darkness, gloom and storm;
19 to a trumpet blast or to such a voice speaking words that those who heard
it begged that no further word be spoken to them,
20 because they could not bear what was commanded: "If even an animal
touches the mountain, it must be stoned."
21 The sight was so terrifying that Moses said, "I am trembling with fear."
22. But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of
the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful
assembly,
23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You
have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made
perfect,
24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that
speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
25. See to it that you do not refuse him who speaks. If they did not escape
when they refused him who warned them on earth, how much less will we, if we
turn away from him who warns us from heaven?
26 At that time his voice shook the earth, but now he has promised, "Once
more I will shake not only the earth but also the heavens."
27 The words "once more" indicate the removing of what can be shaken -- that
is, created things -- so that what cannot be shaken may remain.
28. Therefore, since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us
be thankful, and so worship God acceptably with reverence and awe,
29 for our "God is a consuming fire."
NIV Copyright 1973, 1978, 1984, International Bible Society. All rights
reserved.
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| There's several points in .0 that I think are an interesting basis for
discussion - not least being the perspective that 'crime' and 'punishment'
(presumably of the state / imprisonment variety) are the province of the
ungodly. I rather think the days are changing, as a sign of the times
towards Matthew 24:9... But that's not what this is to discuss, so I won't
go offtrack so soon! ;-)
� open a discussion on how the Lord punishes His own children when they
� have been foolish, or have sinned. I mentioned one instance in 478.10
� where David was given his choice of punishment, and proverbs talks about
� using the rod to save a child from hell.
� What is the purpose of punishment? (Leading question)
� What is our response to punishment?
� What is our reaction towards God because of punishment?
� Does God punish His own children? Why? When? How?
A verse which I find very pertinent follows the communion instructions in 1
Corinthians 11. Verse 32 says:
"When we are judged by the LORD we are being disciplined so that we will
not be condemned with the world."
Hebrews 12:10-11 tells us explicitly that God's purpose in disciplining us
is that we may share in his holiness, and that it produces righteousness
and peace in us.
ie The purpose of discipline is to make us to be like Him, instead of being
like the world; so that our works are not wood, hay, stubble (1 Corinthians
3:12), and therefore consumed as useless, but that which will bring Him
glory, and fulfil what we are to become before Him for eternity.
As far as your last question is concerned, it is *only* His own children
that God disciplines - this is the burden of Hebrews 12. Because He cares
for them enough to make them be like their Father in heaven...
Now punishment, per se, only follows judgement, which is when the whole
world is called to account. Punishment is for God's enemies only (as in
Revelation 20:11-15, etc).
ie, our discipline during our lifetime (which to those with only temporal
vision looks like punishment) is directed at training us to be those who
can receive maximum benefit from eternity. Those who, by opting out of the
relationship with the Father in this life are unprepared for holiness,
suffer punishment with the unholiness they cling to....
Re your point about David:
� David's crime? He numbered the men in Israel.
A census was a way of testing God's blessing on the nation, and was carried
out at God's instigation, rather than at mans. Each man counted had to
be covered by an offering to the LORD. In Numbers 3:44-51, the
Levites were dedicated to the LORD on behalf of the Israelite men, and a
precise sum had to be collected for those over the quota.
In Exodus 30:11-16, the rules for a census are clearly laid down, and it
even says that this is so that no plague will come upon them.
David wasn't acting as a free individual. He was acting as king, on behalf
of the nation. The nation bore his guilt, as the nation did later under
kings who turned away from God to idolatry. Israel had become unclean, and
needed to be cleansed. Just as they did when Achan sinned - the nation
suffered defeat at Ai, though purging Achan's family from the nation was
enough to regain the victory over Ai.
It's getting late here, or I woudl go on... But when God takes someone's
life, it is not the horrendous thing from His perspective that it is from
ours. Even if it is done in a judicial sense, it doesn't necessarily imply
loss of salvation. Rather, the ultimate activation of a dedication which
we cannot live up to, humanly speaking.
That's all I have time for now, but it's a fascinating study... - thanks, Mark!
God bless
Andrew
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