Conference yukon::christian_v7

    If you go back and look at Satan's tactics in the Garden of Eden, what
    do you find?
    
    He's always having you question that which is already known.  Eve knew
    that God had expected... but Satan had her doubt first her own
    knowledge, then preyed on her pride.
    
    I believe hwas following the same tactics with Jesus to no avail.
    

    Re: Note 477.0 by MKOTS3::GELE
    
    Sylvain, I've done a bit of reading which may interest you.
    
    Matthew 4:3; from English transliteration in my Interlinear bible;
    
    "And coming near him, the tempter said, if son you are of god, say that
    stones these loaves may become."
    
    Word definitions for this sequence up to and including "god".
    
    
    Word No.	Greek Pron.		Meaning
    
    		kai			(and)
    4334	pros-er'-khom-ahee	(coming near)
    846		ow-tos'			(him)
    		ho			(the - male sex)
    3985	pi-rad'-zo		("to test" - tempter)
    2036	ep'-o			("said" - past tense speaking)
    1487	i			(see below)
    5207	hwee-os'		(immediate or remote kinship)
    1487	i			(see below)
    		tou			(of)
    2316	theh'-os		(God)
    
    More on word 1487;
    
    a prim. particle of contitionality; if, whether, that, etc.: -
    forasmuch as, if, that, ([al-])though, whether.  Often used in
    connection or composition with other particles, espec. as in ...
    See also 1437.
    
    On 1437;
    
    ... often used in connection with other particles to denote
    indefiniteness or uncertainty ...
    
    Look at Jesus' own words in Matthew 5:22; "The lamp of the body is the
    eye.  If, then, the eye of you sound be..."
    
    *This* IF is the 1437 one, an uncertainty-if, whereas what Satan said
    in Matthew 4:3 was not an uncertainty-if, but rather a more certain
    variety; a "forasmuch as" style of if.
    
    My conclusion; I don't think Satan was saying it in such a way as to
    cast doubt on _who_ Jesus really was.
    
    (Apart from that, there would be very little point in doing so; nobody
    else was present... ;-) )
    
    James
    
    
    Bibliography
    
    Learn New Testament Greek, by John H. Dobson,
    The Interlinear Bible, edited/published? by Hendrickson,
    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible, also marked Hendrickson.

Hello Silvain,

I also understood it to be as James represented.  There are different Greek
words translated into English as 'if', which imply more than just the
uncertainty we understand from it. 

So the devil's words were not a challenge for proof.  They could better be
represented by 
	"...as you are the Son of God..."
ie, implying "You, as the Son of God have no need to suffer hunger in any
circumstances!  Why are you letting the material world dominate you?" 

Another example of 'if' being used in this sense is in Acts 5:39, from
which we can deduce that Gamaliel was [at least very close to being] a
Christian.... 


							Andrew

Well done, James.

In the vernacular of the street: we often use this phrase to taunt someone
into something.  "If you're not a chicken, go ahead and do this."
The implication is not in finding out whether you're of the chicken
species by doing something, but getting you to do something [to prove
something you already know].  It is a matter of control.  If I can taunt
you in to a fight, I have manipulated you and you have not made the
decision of your own accord.  

No, Satan had no question as to who Jesus was; instead, he was using that
to water the seeds of pride (if there were any to be watered).  "The 
Son of God can do anything.  Why don't you turn these stones to bread and
feed your hunger?"  This is more passive than the goading Satan was 
attempting.  Remember, temptation is NOT passive and doesn't try to
reason with you - it tries to goad you into something, or lure you into
it.  Satan's phrasilogy was designed to tempt.

MM

   RE: 477.0 <MKOTS3::GELE>

   Hi, Sylvain!

       I'm mostly read-only these days, but I do have a few minutes for a
   quick reply.

   >When Jesus was casting demons out of people,they would come out screaming
   >"we know who you are..." and Jesus Himself said that he had seen Satan
   >cast out of Heaven. Now obviously Satan and demons recognize the fact that
   >Jesus is God and that they were in Heaven with him at one time.

       I think that satan was playing on the "human" side of Christ and trying
   to plant a seed of doubt in Jesus as to WHO he really was.  Satan is a liar
   and the father of all lies.  If he could get Jesus to doubt who He was and
   his purpose for being here, he have won a major victory.

   FWIW,
   In Christ,
   Tony

   Subjectively, I think Nancy has a valid point, the truth never got in the 
   serpent's way before...

   Objectively AUSSIE::CAMERON James; is making a valid point
   subjunctive (if) koine clauses come in different classes and one of 
   the classes (I forget which and even how to recognize it, but I think 
   its 3rd class condition) could be translated :

   Since you are the Son of God...  

   In either case its a "challenge" orchestrated by the temptor 
   (will he never learn?) to bring about a flesh reaction from Christ.

   (imo) 

   Hank

    my understanding had always been along the lines of MM's explanation:
    Satan was trying to get Jesus to *prove* He was the Son of God.
    
    interesting question, tho...
    
    p

    My belief is that Jesus, though He was God, never utilized His divine
    power to fulfil His needs.  He did this because He came to live *as a
    man* to demonstrate that men can live in complete dependence on our
    heavenly Father.  I believe that Satan's futile attempt was to get
    Jesus to utilize His divine power in order to meet His human needs. 
    Had Jesus done this, He would have been "disqualified" to fulfil God's
    purpose to live as a perfect man.
    
    (As an interesting aside, try to find anyplace where Jesus performed a
    miracle solely to benefit Himself.)
    
    Mark L.

    Re: Note 477.8 by CHTP00::CHTP00::LOVIK

>   My belief is that Jesus, though He was God, never utilized His divine
>   power to fulfil His needs.  

    This leads me to think that God (all three parts) does not actually
    "need" us, otherwise what he did by becoming Jesus in the flesh would
    have to be considered a use of divine power to fulfil his needs...

    Walking on dangerous ground here... but if God chose to love us, which
    is his nature, and therefore wanted the best for us, did he not use his
    divine power to fulfil his wants?   ;-)

    How 'bout "to fulfil his material/bodily needs".

    James

	What Mark L. said (ref .8). This is further evidenced by the Lord's
response. 

	Satan's tempting of the Lord Jesus was to appeal to His status as the
Son of God (declared by the Father 40 days earlier at His baptism). However, the
Lord replied "*Man*, shall not live by bread alone" signifying His status and
ground of temptation as a man. The Lord Jesus overcame and defeated Satan as a
man.

ace

Re 477.9 (James C.)

>>   My belief is that Jesus, though He was God, never utilized His divine
>>   power to fulfil His needs.  
>
>    This leads me to think that God (all three parts) does not actually
>    "need" us, otherwise what he did by becoming Jesus in the flesh would
>    have to be considered a use of divine power to fulfil his needs...
>
>    Walking on dangerous ground here... but if God chose to love us, which
>    is his nature, and therefore wanted the best for us, did he not use his
>    divine power to fulfil his wants?   ;-)

    I guess I should have been a little more specific.  I should have said
    "During His days on earth, Jesus never utilized His divine nature in
    order to fulfil His own needs."  Clearly, at other times (the creation,
    to name a few :-) ) Jesus (or more clearly, the Son of God) excercised
    His divine power.  And according to Colossians 1, He has never ceased
    exercising that divine power in the creation.
    
    However, I also do not think that God "needs" man.  God has chosen to
    love man, and to work His eternal purpose through man, and to manifest
    His great love toward man.
    
>    How 'bout "to fulfil his material/bodily needs".

    Yeah.  What I meant to say. :-)
    
    Mark L.

 
re.11 Mark

>  However, I also do not think that God "needs" man. 

	Sooner or later I knew we'd find something to disagree about. 8*)

	Actually, God needs man to fulfill His purpose and defeat His enemy. We
don't why He chose to use man in this way, but it is apparent that "man" is very
much a part of God's plan. God has chosen man to lead all creation in universal
praise to Him, He needs man as His expression on the earth today (the church),
and He needs man to exercise His authority over His enemy (Satan) to defeat him
and thus glorify God.

	His plan is full of grace and wonder to include man in fulfilling His
purpose. Yes, He needs man. Amazing as it sounds!

ace

    Re: Note 477.11 by CHTP00::CHTP00::LOVIK
    
>   Yeah.  What I meant to say. :-)
    
    ;-)

      Hi,
    
        I believe Jesus walked by faith all of His earthly life
        and thus He came to _believe_ He was the Messiah not by
        prior knowledge of the fact, but rather by faith in the
        word of God.
    
        So when Satan said "if" it could have been a temptation to
        Jesus to lose faith in who He was.
    
        All of faith (I believe).
    
                                                  Tony

    I don't think Satan was casting doubt on Jesus' identity at all.
    The Greek is plain to me.
    
    James