Conference yukon::christian_v7

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Jim Co Mod.

 A message from a concerned noter leads me to comment that the base note was
 not hidden because of the topic, but what appears to be a solicitation.  
 Because of recent events, I'd prefer to err on the side of caution and have
 asked the author to edit and repost.



 Jim co mod

While I have been unable to track down the sources, I have heard rumors that
various Catholic visionaries have received from the Lord the date June 9th in
relation to what is known as the Day of Conscience, or the Warning, best known
through the messages from apparitions of Mary at Garabandal, Spain in the
1960s, but also referred to by other prophets and visionaries throughout the
years.

The Warning is an event which will be a great grace of God.  Something --
exactly what is not revealed -- will appear in the sky for all to see.  As
people look at it, it will be transmitted interiorly to them, and every human
being on the planet with experience it: at that moment, each will see his own
sins and where s/he stands in the light of God's justice.  All will know then
that God exists and where they stand in His eyes.  It will, in essence, be our
personal judgments in miniature, but it will be a great grace because we will
have the opportunity to repent of our sins before we die, something which is
not true at our final judgment.  While no one will die from the Warning itself,
some may die from the shock of it.  If humanity does not respond to the Warning
and repent, a chastisement will begin.

For those who know God and are in His good favor, it will be painful but it
will draw us closer to Him.

Some believe that this Warning will be associated with great earthquakes and
three hours of darkness.  The earthquakes seem to match with some of the
prophecies posted here.  The three hours of darkness, in turn, will be symbolic
of the Three Days of Darkness which have been long prophesied to occur just
prior to the Second Coming, but that's another story. I wonder if it is not
related to one of the seals in Revelation:

    REV 6:12  And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo,
    there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth
    of hair, and the moon became as blood;

    REV 6:13  And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig
    tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

    REV 6:14  And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled
    together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their
    places.

    REV 6:15  And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the
    rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every
    bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the
    rocks of the mountains;

    REV 6:16  And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide
    us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the
    wrath of the Lamb:

    REV 6:17  For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be
    able to stand?

Now whether the Warning will occur, and whether it will occur on June 9th are
two different questions.  I am fairly confident that the Warning WILL occur,
but much less confident that it will occur on June 9th, although I do believe
it is very near.  There are other issues surrounding the Warning (particularly,
less than one year later it will be followed by a great Miracle, which has a
whole lot of timing conditions associated with it), but I'll just suffice it to
say that I do believe that the time is right for the Warning, so I find the
June 9th date at least reasonable.

A nun who lived early this century and who was visited frequently by our Lord
who told her many things had a personal experience very much like this Warning.
She was called judgment seat of God and had all her sins revealed to her.  She
commented, "I did not know that even the smallest transgressions will have to
be accounted for." Perhaps this is a prefiguration of the Warning which all of
us will experience.  The Lord also told her that shortly before the Last Day,
there would be a time of darkness when a great cross would appear in the sky
with rays of light coming down from Christ's wounds.  I would not be surprised
if He was describing this Warning.

I find it quite interesting that various Evangelical ministers would receive
the same date as various Catholic visionaries.  It certain sounds like a kind
of confirmation, since I doubt that there is much possibility of
cross-pollination, especially since the messages are different but
complimentary.  For example, some Evangelical prophecy posted earlier said that
on that day, something would happen to the presidency and abortion would end 
in this country.  Well, this fits in well with the Warning: abortion will end
because everyone will see finally how wrong it is, and one wonders what effect 
the revelation of the seriousness and gravity of his policy of death will have
on President Clinton.

    Eric,
    
    This is very interesting.  While I believe that this is well within
    God's capabilities and would indeed be a great act of mercy I have a
    question.  When I read .1 I immediately thought of Luke 16:19-31, the
    parable of Lazarus and the rich man.  While it is not exactly the same
    scenario the words of Abraham, "If they hear not Moses and the
    prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the
    dead", at the conclusion of the parable indicate to me that the
    Scripture is sufficient testimony of God's mercy and judgment.  How do
    perceive these two being reconciled?
    
    Kent
    

>    If they hear not Moses and the
>    prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the
>    dead",

After having an extensive conversation with a self-avowed atheist, I 
understood more fully (having known it underneath) that people will 
believe whatever they want, even in the face of [what we understand to
be] incontrovertible evidence.  Simply by declaring the opposite ("No it 
isn't") the opposing debater can nullify any "fact" you bring to the
discussion.  You can say "but it is, and is accepted to be so by 
millions of people."  The response "millions of people are wrong" is
sufficient to disprove a "fact" in the mind of someone who will not see.

Someone who will not see:  "Let those who have ears, let them hear."
Jesus was not short-shrifting those with the misfortune to not have ears.
Nor was it speaking only to those who were not physically deaf.  Jesus
clearly understood that those who will be receptive to the Truth will
hear the good news and those who will not will merely harden their hearts.
Pharoag is a pimary example of this, having the truth presented he was 
given the choice to accept it as truth or challenge the truth with his own
idea of truth.  As with all things, when "truths" are pitted against one another,
the real Truth will eventually be shown.

God holds the ultimate truth.  "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
Those who have ears, let them hear.

Re: .5

I'm not sure I understand why there is a contradiction.  I would point
out that while Jesus did say here that they would not believe even if
someone were to rise from the dead, he nevertheless _did_ do exactly
that: rise from the dead so that they might believe, and they did not.
If one were to argue on the basis of this parable (which is, after all,
only a parable) that God would never do anything to prove beyond a
shadow of a doubt his existence and his truth, one would be arguing
against the Resurrection (which after all, is not in "Moses and the
prophets" :-))

That being said, in no way am I suggesting that this Warning will 
convert everyone to Christ, for it is quite clear from this parable
and also the witness of Scripture that some people will NOT believe
even if the truth is revealed to them without a doubt. What I believe it
will do is knock everyone off the fence so that everyone is either a
zealous believer or a God-hater. 

Eric

    Eric,
      Although I respect your desire to align yourseslf with the June 9th
    "warning", I find nothing Biblical reagrding its invocation. I
    categorize announcements such as this along side those that predict the
    second coming. (I am enthusiastic, but cautiously skeptical.)  The
    premise I work from is this:
    	1. The Lord has given us enough Revelation through his son, the
    	   prophets and His Word to secure eternal life. (period)
    	2. For those that are already believers, such a day has no
           significance, and is therefore religious noise.
    	3. (Most importantly,) I remember the words of my Lord who said,
    	   be careful not to listen to those that say, "There He is!", or
    	   "He is over there." (Now I know he was speaking of the second
    	   coming, but it is applicable to those that seek affirmation
    	   that the Lord's words are true.) I for one believe that Christ
    	   will come again and that I need not worry about anything (I
    	   need no "warning"), because Christ told me to trust my God.
    	   With this trust, there is no anxiety for the furture or for
    	   future events. (period)
    
    
    I *do* believe it is a lack of faith to look for (special) signs in this
    day and age. SImply because we have the complete Word of God for salvation.
    I say special, because the Lord did tell us that we would know the time
    of *his coming* was near when we read the signs of the times. This in
    no way aludes to **additional** revelations.
    
    
    -PDM_humbly_added_,_not_meaning_to_ruffle_feathers.

Hi Eric,

� while Jesus did say here that they would not believe even if someone were 
� to rise from the dead, he nevertheless _did_ do exactly that: rise from 
� the dead so that they might believe, and they did not.

'The rich man' wanted the visible proof to effectively convert.  ie, 
bypassing faith, 'the evidence of things not seen'.  When we are finished 
with these bodies, and 'know as we are known' (1 Corinthians 13:12), there 
is no room left for faith growth.  Knowledge replaces the whole area.  In 
fact, what the rich man asked for would have meant the judgemental 
appearance of the resurrected LORD...  This is parallel to partaking of the
tree of life, which we are protected from until the day of grace is 
complete.

� God would never do anything to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt his 
� existence and his truth, one would be arguing against the Resurrection...

Note that when Jesus rose from the dead, He only appeared to those who already
trusted in Him.  cf Acts 1:3 'these men...', 1 Corinthians 15:4-8...
The faith they had placed in Him needed to flower into realisation and
understanding.  The resurrection visit wasn't to convert them.  The nearest
you could come to this was Saul / Paul on the Damascus road.  I believe
that in this case he knew a truth in his heart which he had not been able 
to translate into action, because of the LORD"s words to him as recorded in 
Acts 26:14 "It is hard for you to kick against the goads", as if his very 
actions were raising a conflict within him.  "I'm following the letter of 
the law as instructed, but the more 'religiously' I press it, the more 
turmoil it raises in my heart, in conflict against the deeper reality I see 
in those I am compelled to oppose...".

� What I believe it will do is knock everyone off the fence so that everyone
� is either a zealous believer or a God-hater. 
That's more like it!  The ultimate revelation of the glorious presence of 
the LORD leaves no room for doubt or compromise.  When He appears, each one 
will either love Him perfectly or hate Him unbearably....

� If one were to argue on the basis of this parable (which is, after all,
� only a parable) 
Perhaps a quibble, but there are differences of opinion as to whether this 
is a parable of not....

							God bless
								Andrew

    Isn't it interesting that the man Jesus DID raise from the dead
    was named Lazarus. We see time and again where God does everything
    possible to reach hearts so as to provide every opportunity to receive
    Hos Mercy. Many of Jesus' day did not beleive Jesus even after he
    raised Lazarus nor after his own resurrection. Yet Jesus did these
    things for those who are humble enough before God to see and believe.
    
    So many people are struggling between the draws of the world and the
    call to follow Jesus Christ by living the gospel and Commandments. Each
    one of us knows the role the illumination of our own conscience has 
    played in firming our resolve for Christ; God's Grace comes with his
    Light. The Warning is a great outpouring of Mercy but it will be up
    to each to accept the grace. From scripture we can see that a large
    percent will not accept the grace and will deny God further yet for
    those who are open this will be a confirmation of God's presence and
    an opportunity to convert. I think it will also energize those who \
    are already dedicated to the Lord.
    
    
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    
    Mary
    
      percent  n

| <<< Note 476.6 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>



| After having an extensive conversation with a self-avowed atheist, I
| understood more fully (having known it underneath) that people will
| believe whatever they want, even in the face of [what we understand to
| be] incontrovertible evidence.  Simply by declaring the opposite ("No it 
| isn't") the opposing debater can nullify any "fact" you bring to the
| discussion.  You can say "but it is, and is accepted to be so by 
| millions of people."  The response "millions of people are wrong" is
| sufficient to disprove a "fact" in the mind of someone who will not see.

	Mark, this logic is flawed. Millions of people can believe something to
be true/false and they all could be wrong. Look at Germany from the mid 30's
through the 40's. They thought they were right, but were in fact, wrong.
Numbers do NOT prove something to be true/false, facts do.

| God holds the ultimate truth.  "I am the way, the truth, and the life."
| Those who have ears, let them hear.

	Agreed, GOD does hold the ultimate truth. 


Glen

>      Although I respect your desire to align yourseslf with the June 9th
>    "warning", I find nothing Biblical reagrding its invocation. 

I see it as possibly a fulfillment of the sixth seal of Revelation 6. Even if
this is wrong, though, God is not bound to do only what is prophesied in
Scripture, and it makes little difference to me whether it's found in Scripture
or not, God can do it if he wishes.

> I categorize announcements such as this along side those that predict the
> second coming. 

Why?

This is not a "prediction", this is a private supernatural revelation -- a
prophecy, you might say.  It's not a matter of doing numerological calculations
from Scripture or attempting to interpret symbols.  As a private revelation,
it is certainly not binding on anyone, and does not constitute any new public
revelation, but that does not mean it is useless.

>    	1. The Lord has given us enough Revelation through his son, the
>    	   prophets and His Word to secure eternal life. (period)

No one is doubting this.  This "warning" is not a matter of doctrinal revel-
ation but of an enlightenment of the status one's own soul.  Scripture says
that the Spirit was sent to convict us of sin; this could be viewed as the
fullness of that promise.

I would point out that it is God's grace who leads us to His Word and causes us
to believe and accept it, and not everyone has yet received this grace. You
sound as if you believe it is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer
that the Bible is God's Revelation to man; it may be to yourself, but only
because of God's grace.  To those who have not received this grace, no matter
how hard they might wish to believe, no matter how much they try on their own
power, no matter indeed how often they read it and how much they pray, they
will not believe.  Therefore we have no reason to boast because we believe and
others do not: it is only by God's grace that we believe, both in God's Word
and in Christ Himself.

In this sense, _everyone_ requires a personal "revelation" in order to believe,
in the sense that God must move individually in our hearts for us to believe.
The Bible and the prophets won't do any good when God's grace isn't given to us
to move us to believe. I see this Warning as a kind of a grace which will
enable all to believe as you and I believe: not because it is new revelation,
but because it will move people's hearts to believe, as your heart and my heart
have been moved to believe by the grace of God.

>    	2. For those that are already believers, such a day has no
>           significance, and is therefore religious noise.

Hardly, my friend.  Should it happen, you and I and all Christians are going to
be on our knees weeping our eyes out and imploring the Lord for His forgiveness
for all the sins we have left unrepented.  It is an awesome thing to stand
before the righteous judgment of God Almighty and, as Scripture says, have to
give an account for every thing which we have done.

Even so, it not only would give us hope, but it would also draw us closer to
Christ because it would increase our love for him, because we would see just
how great a debt he has forgiven.  Not only that, were it to happen, it would
throw the world into such an upheaval as has never been seen before.  It would
certainly affect us there.

> 3. (Most importantly,) ... I for one believe that Christ will come again and
> that I need not worry about anything (I need no "warning"), because Christ
> told me to trust my God.  With this trust, there is no anxiety for the
> furture or for future events. (period)

I agree that no Christian should be anxious about the future.  But while you
may believe that you need no warning and no grace, I need all the grace I can
get even though I believe without doubt.
    
>  I *do* believe it is a lack of faith to look for (special) signs in this
>  day and age. SImply because we have the complete Word of God for salvation.

Ah, but how are all to know without doubt that this IS the Word of God?

>    I say special, because the Lord did tell us that we would know the time
>    of *his coming* was near when we read the signs of the times. This in
>    no way aludes to **additional** revelations.
    
Nor does it rule them out. Scripture says that in the last days, young men will
have visions and old men will dream dreams, and the Spirit of God will be 
poured out on all flesh.  Are we to reject what these visions and dreams have
to say, since Scripture prophesied them?

Help us, save us, have mercy on us, and protect us O God, by your Grace!
Eric

>	Mark, this logic is flawed. Millions of people can believe something to
>be true/false and they all could be wrong. Look at Germany from the mid 30's
>through the 40's. They thought they were right, but were in fact, wrong.

You missed the point.

| Simply by declaring the opposite ("No it 
| isn't") the opposing debater can nullify any "fact" you bring to the
| discussion.  You can say "but it is, and is accepted to be so by 
| millions of people."

If anyone cares, the point is this:

Note the comma and the subsequent conjunction.  In addition to it being 
a fact, it is also accepted as fact by millions of people.  Being accepted 
by millions alone does not make it fact, but the belief of millions of 
people does add to the argument of fact by agreement of definition until 
and unless a greater power is able to redefine accepted definition.
Further:

>| The response "millions of people are wrong" is
>| sufficient to disprove a "fact" in the mind of someone who will not see.
>
>	Mark, this logic is flawed. Millions of people can believe something to
>be true/false and they all could be wrong. Look at Germany from the mid 30's
>through the 40's. They thought they were right, but were in fact, wrong.
>Numbers do NOT prove something to be true/false, facts do.

All that has been said here is that "millions of people don't prove a fact" 
in response to my saying "contradicting a fact is sufficient [in the
minds of the contradictor] to disprove a fact" (in quotes, showing that 
the fact of fact is yet to be agreed upon).  Numbers were never intended 
to prove the fact, as my note should be clear to those who would care to
read it for what it says instead of supposing what it says.  The addition
of numbers was intended only to demonstrate the conversation between
conversants.  Had I meant to use numbers as intent to prove fact I would
have written: "but it is, *because* it is accepted by millions of people..."

Mark




  Now back to our regularly scheduled conversation,
thank you.

    
    re: .8
    
    >> 2. ... religious noise.
    
    But for those of us who have unsaved friends and family, this
    'prophetic utterance' is not just NOISE.  It offers us some
    hope that all those hearts will be opened before the final
    judgment.
    
    So a prayer:  If a 'warning' is to come, Lord let it come so
                  that they will no longer doubt and their eyes will
                  be opened.
    
    Paul

    !         <<< Note 476.14 by IMTDEV::GAVIN "Beam me up Lord!" >>>
    !                   -< Call me a fundie, but noise?  >-
    
    !But for those of us who have unsaved friends and family, this
    'prophetic utterance' is not just NOISE.
    	Sorry for offending you. As I said, the opinion I presented
    	is my opinion. I think predictions and pontifications is NOISE
    	as is so much of what christian perspectives profess as gospel.
    	Call it what you will, but any addition, subtraction or alteration
    	of the Word is noise to those trying to hear with their ears and
    	see with their eyes (through the veil of sin) that which God is
    	revealing to us - FROM THE WORD.)
    
    
    
    !                                          It offers us some
    !hope that all those hearts will be opened before the final
    !judgment.
    	Opening the eyes of your neighbor is YOUR job. Besides Christ
    	tells us that God is all around and for those with eyes will
    	see it. Remember when Christ came into Jerusalem? If the people
    	would not shout, the very rocks themselves would proclaim
    	Christ is Lord!
    	God does not need to stoop to do anything more. The Holy Spirit
    	is in the hearts of man from the pouring out of the Spirit
        (sha'vout). To think that God needs to show Himself, or any of the
    	beloved in Christ their conscience is pure foolishness in my
    	OPINION. - Come June 9th, let us see who is laughing ok.?
    
    	As for your unsaved friends and MINE, let the Holy Spirit do the
    	watering and cultivating after WE have down the sowing. Again,
        remember the great commission of Christ was, Go and teach the Word
    	to all nations.  If you and I do ouor jobs, the unsaved will have
    	heard the message and:
    	1. THe fell on rock
    	2. the seed fell in shallow soil
    	3. The seed fell among thorns
        4. The seed fell on fertile ground.
    
    	Your, and my unsaved friends fall in one of these categories.
    
    	Shalom,
    	  PDM

!Note 476.11                  The JUNE 9TH Topic ...                     11 of 15
!NACAD2::EWANCO "Eric James Ewanco"                   87 lines  18-MAY-1994 13:38
!                               -< on revelation >-
    
!                                                                      Even if
!this is wrong, though, God is not bound to do only what is prophesied in
!Scripture, and it makes little difference to me whether it's found in Scripture
!or not, God can do it if he wishes.
    	I understand what you are trying to say Eric, but it should make a
    	differnce whether it is found in scripture or not. More
    	importantly, and especially if WE add it in there. Any addition
    	to the Word, no matter how slight is blaspheming the perfection
    	of God's Word.

!> I categorize announcements such as this along side those that predict the
> second coming. 

Why?
    I have the complete revelation I need from the Word to be saved. What
    ever the Lord did not write is of little importance to me. I have been
    taught, believe on the Lord thy God with thy whole strength, mind and
    soul. (Period) Believing in Christ my redeemer is the only thing that
    keeps me from eternal damnation. I do not need anyone saying, "Repent
    for the time is near", because, if I TRULY believe, (and God I hope
    that I do), I will know I am a sinner and that I need the grace of
    God. I will WANT to seek His will and sin would be as offensive to me
    and it is to God. Albeit I am a lowly sinner, but thanks be to God!
    

!I would point out that it is God's grace who leads us to His Word and causes us
!to believe and accept it, and not everyone has yet received this grace. You
    	This is where we disagree, I believe that God's grace has been pour
    	out completely upon all creation. That is why God was able to give
    	hope to Adam and Eve when they sinned by *TELLING* them of the
    	emnity between Satan and them. God's grace was and has been present
    	since the beginning - alone with His love, patience, mercy and
    	PEACE. We however have been most fortunate to live following the
    	redemption! We are most assuredly aware of the grace where Adam,
    	Abraham, Issac and Jacob had to "hope" in the Grace. Christ IS
    	*my* grace.
    
    
!sound as if you believe it is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer
!that the Bible is God's Revelation to man; it may be to yourself, but only
!because of God's grace.  To those who have not received this grace, no matter
!how hard they might wish to believe, no matter how much they try on their own
!power, no matter indeed how often they read it and how much they pray, they
!will not believe.  Therefore we have no reason to boast because we believe and
!others do not: it is only by God's grace that we believe, both in God's Word
!and in Christ Himself.
    	Alas, I must agree with you to a degree. There are those souls out
    	there that have been beaten so badly by thie world that they find it
    	difficult to *believe* in the grace of God. Likewise, WE as good
    	little Christians have done little to provide solace. (As an aside,
    	I am convinced that christians {in the name of God mine you}, have
    	done more to separate and debilitate the Work of the Body, than any
    	blasphemous spirit or soul.)

!In this sense, _everyone_ requires a personal "revelation" in order to believe,
!in the sense that God must move individually in our hearts for us to believe.
!The Bible and the prophets won't do any good when God's grace isn't given to us
!to move us to believe. I see this Warning as a kind of a grace which will
	Christ said, "They have Moses and the prophets."
    
>    	2. For those that are already believers, such a day has no
>           significance, and is therefore religious noise.

!Hardly, my friend.  Should it happen, you and I and all Christians are going to
!be on our knees weeping our eyes out and imploring the Lord for His forgiveness
!for all the sins we have left unrepented.  It is an awesome thing to stand
	By the grace and mercy of God, I stand before you and God SINLESS
    	this day! (and yet the worst sinner of you all!) - Figure that one
    	out Eric.
    
!before the righteous judgment of God Almighty and, as Scripture says, have to
!give an account for every thing which we have done.
    Not me, the page with my name on it is as white and snow. I fear no
    judgement. When I awake from my slumber in Christ, I will be able to
    enter His courts and praise Him face to Face.
    
!Even so, it not only would give us hope, but it would also draw us closer to
!Christ because it would increase our love for him, because we would see just
!how great a debt he has forgiven.  Not only that, were it to happen, it would
!throw the world into such an upheaval as has never been seen before.  It would
!certainly affect us there.
	You make some interesting point here. I do not disagree that a
    	little revelation wouldn't hurt us, but the world would certainly
    	convulse and vomit because of the awesome God who judges
    	righteously.
    
> 3. (Most importantly,) ... I for one believe that Christ will come again and
> that I need not worry about anything (I need no "warning"), because Christ
> told me to trust my God.  With this trust, there is no anxiety for the
> furture or for future events. (period)

!I agree that no Christian should be anxious about the future.  But while you
!may believe that you need no warning and no grace,
    	ERIC! I am not going to let you slip this statement past me.
    	Quite the contrary, I *think* my friend I believe in more
    	grace than you give me credit for. I believe the Grace of God
    	was with God in the beginning and poured out on mankind from the
    	first rebellious act instituded by Adam and Eve.
    
    
!                                                   I need all the grace I can
!get even though I believe without doubt.
    	Contradiction Alert!
    
!>  I *do* believe it is a lack of faith to look for (special) signs in this
!>  day and age. SImply because we have the complete Word of God for salvation.

!Ah, but how are all to know without doubt that this IS the Word of God?
    
    huh?

!>    I say special, because the Lord did tell us that we would know the time
!>    of *his coming* was near when we read the signs of the times. This in
!>    no way aludes to **additional** revelations.
    
Nor does it rule them out. Scripture says that in the last days, young men will
have visions and old men will dream dreams, and the Spirit of God will be 
poured out on all flesh.  Are we to reject what these visions and dreams have
to say, since Scripture prophesied them?

	I do not reject out of hand any prophecy given in the Word, I do
    	however questiona dn decern the words of my sinful brothers and
    	sisters, as well as my own words. Any good preacher worth his salt
    	would not have you believe him, but test everything agains the
    	power of the word for its truth!
    	So dream who is stopping you. Hey I dream of the end of time too,
    	but it is just wishful thinking in my mind. I firmly believe the
    	world is not yet ripe for the harvest. -Though some fruit may be
    	rotting on the vine, the majority is still green. When then is
    	enough enough? As one observes the season, and knows when teh fig
    	tree will bear fruit, so too will it be with the coming of hte kingdom
    	fo God.
    
!Help us, save us, have mercy on us, and protect us O God, by your Grace!
    !Eric
    I second the prayer. For through faith , by grace you are saved, and
    not by your won that no one may boast.
    
    PDM

  CNN, early this morning :

  A comet (burntout-whatever that is) will collide with Jupiter
  in July of this year.

  The brief went on to say that the collision would cause an energy
  release in the oreder of "several million nuclear devices".

  A graphic showed the comet pieces colliding with Jupiter accomanied by
  flashes of light.

  Hank

�  A comet (burntout-whatever that is) will collide with Jupiter
�  in July of this year.

This was highlighted in an advertisement in a national newspaper in the UK
a few weeks back. Put in by a self-styled prophet(ess), but the detail
didn't match with scripture.  I meant to retain the cutting but didn't... 
It was portrayed with similar purpose to the June 9th prophesy, but more
clumsily, and with too much weight given to the name of the advertiser. 

							Andrew 

	re: June 9

	June 9, 1994 should have no more significance to the watchful believer
than May 19, 1994, or May 20, or May 21, etc. 

	Every day is a day of expectation and anticipation for the wise virgins.

	
ace

    Two comments.
    
    First, the Jupiter collision will be on the other side of Jupiter, so
    not visible from Earth.  The impact to Earth of the release of that
    energy will be none, according to the astronomer I listened to on Talk
    of the Nation.  Life at Digital is more turbulent than this event will
    be.
    
    Second, if the warning scheduled for June 9 should cause Christians to
    fall on their knees with a new appreciation for the Lord and a new
    repentence, I'd submit that nothing prevents us from doing that before
    or after June 9.  We're called to!  Admittedly, a direct call from God
    is more immediate, but a good time in the Word, in relevant passages,
    can equally speak to our hearts.  So, do it now - don't wait.  And, be
    assured that we have God's forgiveness.
    
    - Don 
    
    

 AMEN!

On April 18, 1994 during a long afternoon of prayer I received two messages
from Jesus. This was proceeded with a Prelude understanding which I did not
discover until this week when I was updating my spiritual journal from the
many loose notes. I believe that it is another one of many confirming message 
to these impending times. I cannot vouch for the June 9th date, but I do
believe we are nearing at least the beginning of the Purification/Chastisements.

I received this message many weeks prior to first becoming aware of other
messages concerning June 9th events or similar recent prophecies.

PRELUDE TO THE MESSAGES:

Here is what I had written in my original notes:

	Prior to receiving the messages the Lord indicated that there 
	would be a whirlwind, but for God's chosen ones it would lift us
	up to Him. We are not to fear it. The time has arrived for all
	things to come to pass.


TEXTUAL MESSAGES:

Subject:	Choose God/Be Vigilant

Source:		Message from Jesus given to Mary Nelson, 18-APR-1994; first
		published 19-APR-1994 in note 1186.1 of CATHOLIC-THEOLOGY

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Messages from Jesus, Monday, April 18, 1994:

      "I am your God. Open your hearts to Me. I desire to fill you, flood you 
with My graces and very Presence. O sweet children who come to Me with 
your love. Sweet children, I desire your hearts I desire to be with you. 
Seek Me and cherish our union. Together we will glorify God the Father. 
We will be before Him together in heaven. This is a mystery of love.
      Now I have some hard words. Woe comes to those who rebel against 
Me and My love. Woe to those who seek Me not. They move away from 
Truth, from Love from all that is God. They embrace darkness, sin and all 
forms of evil. The time of separation is near. The time is at hand when you 
will drink fully of your choices.
      Choose Good. Choose Life. Choose Me your Lord and Savior. You will 
be lifted up, or you will be cast down for all eternity. Oh, how bitterly I cry 
that you might choose well! Oh ho My Heart aches for each sinner who 
does not choose to hear Me in this Hour. Woe and more woe. Rivers of 
blood will flow. I cannot go against your free will. Only you can choose 
Life. Only you can choose Salvation. There is no God besides Me. Turn 
to Me, dear children, and allow Me to lead you to the Father. Allow Me 
to send My Holy Spirit upon you. Allow Me to illumine your heart and 
soul. Do not remain far from Me.
      The glories of heaven are open to those who will choose Me, choose 
Life. I, your Savior call you now. I your Savior call you from My Cross. 
Oh ___ ! Oh _____ ! come to Me, dear children. I call. I plea. I seek you 
relentlessly. My arms are open to receive you. Hasten to find Love. Hasten 
to find Holy Life. I call."

[a pause occurs here for a short time; it seems to be a break onto a new 
message]

      "Holy virgins, I seek your prayers an sacrifices. I seek you to intercede 
for your brothers and sisters. Now is the time for holy vigilance of love 
and supplication. I know that you hear Me sweet ones. I see that you have 
the desire within your souls for Me. Now is the time when your prayers 
and offerings will bear much fruit. Continue to pray and offer yourselves 
for Me in all that you do. I, your God, am with you. I, your God, will make 
your works holy by My Cross. I will transform every offering into a sweet 
aroma of prayer. This is love, my child, to do everything with and through 
Me. O, I bless you and love you all. You are written on the palm of My 
Hand. Come and be consummated in the love I have for you today. I open 
My Sacred Heart to you. My Peace be with you."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notes:

A long prayer time proceeded these messages. I was called into a 'prayer 
of the cross'. After that I felt something change in my ears and I heard 
God say that now I would hear him more clearly. The prayer time ended 
and I was very alert. The Lord told me, "Write". He told me I would write 
for Him. Although this was said in the imperative, I had a clear ability to 
say yes or no to this. I said yes. He then gave me this message which was 
recorded very quickly and smoothly. 

The Lord expressed much feeling while giving me these messages. I could 
feel very intently his yearning for souls. The words "Oh _____!" were 
long an said with great yearnings that could be felt. 

"Holy Virgins" - I understood that this refers to the 5 virgins who have 
prepared for the Bridegroom. 

"This is love, my child..." - here Jesus became very personal, very direct 
to each person.
      

    re: .22
    
    I forgot to add that shortly after receiving the messages posted in
    ,22, I received the scripture HEBREWS 12. Verses 25-29 are particularly
    confirming on an upcoming event although the entire chapter applies.
    
    Mary

Hebrews 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped
not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we
turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:
 26  Whose voice then shook the earth: but now he hath promised, saying, Yet
once more I shake not the earth only, but also heaven.
 27  And this word, Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things
that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be
shaken may remain.
 28  Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have
grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:
 29  For our God is a consuming fire.

    re: .24
    
    Thanks for posting the scripture, Mark.
    
    re: .1
    
    I don't know what was posted in the basenote, but in reading Eric's
    posting in .1 he refers to 9-June coming from a Catholic source. This
    has yet to be tracked down and confirmed as of yet. We have read that
    a priest in the Northeast has given this date, but there is no
    confirmation.
    
    At least two Protestant sources have given the June 9th date:  John
    Hinkel and David Griffis. I have also read that Paul Couch [spell] and
    someone named Nolte have also given this date, or at least it was
    implied by the use of their names in association with this date by
    one of the others. 
    
    I do not know any of these people but they seemed to be considered
    rather mainstream evangelical by the response to the postings on
    America Online.
    
    Those who have given prophecy associated with June 9, 1994 describe
    events in such a way that we Catholics have recognized the content to
    be those events given in Catholic prophecy. There is such a bulk of 
    it that common 'themes' have emerged and therefore we discuss the 
    coming Warning. 
    
    If it is the Warning prophecized at Garabandal, Spain in the 1960's
    then it will be announced by one of the visionaries 3 days beforehand
    according to the prophecy.
    
    I thought it would be good to have some of this background information
    as to the orgins of this date.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary
    

    I have had some other intresting spiritual experiences, for me, has
    made me take the possiblity of the 9-June events seriously.
    
    1)  Last July while in prayer the Lord revealed to me that He wanted
    	me to spread the message of His Peace, that which comes only
    	from conversion to Jesus Christ. Some very particular details
    	were given and confirmed. A few months later when I had not
    	been able to DO anything towards this I asked why this was.
    	The Lord told me He was still preparing me and that this 
    	Apostolate would not come into being until the HEIGHT of the
    	turmoil.
    
    	On May 6, 1994 while in prayer the Lord told me that it was now
    	time to begin this ministry and He annointed me for this 
    	purpose. The turmoil is near.
    
    2.	One of my family members has been very steadfast in his negative
    	view towards all organized religion and Catholicism in particular.
    	Last December I received a word of knowledge about this from the
    	Lord but it was meant for my mother. On either the night of May
    	6th or 7th, 1994 I had a dream in which this person converted,
    	becoming a Catholic, and it also involved my mother. I'm sure
    	it is a prophetic dream and it will probably be the 'illumination
    	of soul' that will bring it about.
    
    Both these items are inconceviable to me without a outpouring of the
    Holy Spirit to bring them about. June 9th may or may not be THE date,
    but it's coming "soon"!
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary

.0 is a detailed prophecy given by some Protestant minister. I did not post it.
I caught a glimpse of it twice before it was hidden.  I wish the author would
fix the note and repost it! (It was hidden only because he posted information
on how to purchase a copy of the tape at the bottom, as near as I can tell.)

I would emphasize with Mary that there are only vague rumors of the June 9th
"theory" in Catholic prophetic circles, and given the multiplicity of unproven
sources in these circles, I would be unwilling to say anything definite about
it; even if I knew who the sources were, depending on who they were, I might
not even bet very much on it.  And with all due respect, while I do not doubt
that the charisms of the Holy Spirit exist in other churches, I don't feel
comfortable putting much stock in the prophecies posted here from non-Catholic
sources, mainly because I am not familiar with the prophets.

I would comment that there appear to be a lot of prophets mentioning this
date; in fact, so many I wonder if this isn't just a rampant rumor, the same
alleged prophecy attached to different names.  If one prophet says it, that's
not remarkable; if two prophets say it, that's interesting; if twenty prophets
say the same thing, that's urban myth. (The Gabriel thing again.)

One of the doubts I've entertained is wondering why, if this is the Warning
prophesied at Garabandal, that someone ELSE received the date.  There were
several visionaries at Garabandal: one received the exact date of the Miracle,
which will occur within a year after the Warning, and another received the YEAR
but not the DATE of the warning. Why would God choose to reveal the date to
someone else entirely, when he intentionally kept it hidden from the original
visionaries (even though he revealed the date of the Miracle)?  In addition,
in thinking about this alleged date, it seems rather pointless to me for God
to reveal the date of the Warning: unbelievers will experience it anyway
whether or not they know about it in advance and there is not a whole lot of
reason for us to warn them to prepare: the purpose of the Warning is to bring
them to repentance, so why spend our effort getting them to repent beforehand?
And for believers, we should be living every day as if we were going to be
judged tomorrow anyway. So why reveal the date?  I'm not sure I believe God
has a reason to do it, but then again I'm not God and my mind is finite.

And as the person from whom I originally received the rumor said, it is very
highly unusual for specific dates to be revealed publicly.  Usually events
of this magnitute are spoken of without specific dates for fulfillment, or
dates are revealed to the visionaries but they are required to keep them
unrevealed until a few days before the event.

This is not to say I don't think the warning may be _near_ -- if it happens, 
I would expect it no later than next year, and possibly this year, based only
on the conditions given for the Miracle at Garabandal.

But I believe that we are drawing very near to the end of the age, and it's
only a matter of time before everything comes to pass.

As a fill-in, I am re-posting .0 without the problem paragraph.  I hope the 
original author doesn't mind! - Just to put discussion in contxt.

								Andrew
								co-moderator

    Mike in topic 470.13 asked about "June 9th"; here is some info ...

    One night a few months ago, I was watching TBN during one of their
    "Praise The Lord" broadcasts.  The guests that evening were Pastor John
    J. Hinkle and Pastor John Wimbur.  During the conversation with Pastor
    Hinkle, host Paul Crouch asked about a prophecy that Pastor Hinkle had 
    preached about, and had received independent confirmation on.

    After the <FF> is the text of Pastor Hinkle's message (with permission)
    which will explain what "June 9th" is all about ...

    Maranatha!

	[original post]



			"THY KINGDOM COME"
		Message by Pastor John J. Hinkle  3/14/93

       I bring you this morning the greatest message that the Lord God has
  ever given me.  It is so totally powerful and glorious, and I am so humbled
  and awed by it that I have prayed with all my heart and mean it with all my
  soul that if any word I speak this morning is not directly from the Holy
  Spirit of God that He would prevent me from speaking it, even by taking my
  life if necessary, so that no word would go forth that is not His own and
  His Word is for the whole world to hear.

       I will not try to convince you, for He said that the Holy Spirit will
  do the convincing of those who were to believe Him.  A few months earlier
  the Lord showed me in a vision that Heaven was coming to earth.  We have all
  prayed the Lord's Prayer many times and we have repeated the phrase, "Thy
  Kingdom come and Thy will be done on earth as it is in Heaven," but we have
  always projected this into the future as some future time.  However, Scrip-
  ture says by bthe lips of Jesus Christ that He came to establish His Kingdom
  in the midst of us (Luke 17:20), but we have never quite believed it.

       I ask you to open your hearts and souls now and invite the Spirit of
  the living God within the depths of your being to listen to the message He
  gave me.  On Thursday night, March 4th, at about two o'clock in the morning,
  the Lord spoke to me in a very loud firm voice, as clear as a ringing bell
  and with such power and clarity there was no way to doubt it.  I heard it
  both outside and inside, and I was amazed that it did not wake up my wife
  Bonnie as well, but it didn't.

       This is the startling message that He gave me, "ON THURSDAY, JUNE THE
  9TH, I WILL RIP THE EVIL OUT OF THIS WORLD."  There was no doubt that this
  was the voice of God speaking, but my human mind asked a question, and I 
  asked the Lord, "Lord, you said in your Word that no man would know the
  hour of the Second Coming."  Instantly the voice spoke and said to me, "I
  did not say the Second Coming," and in that moment I knew it was going to
  be a great cleansing and destruction of evil forces and powers in the world.
  It is not the Rapture, but God's Love and Glory overcoming all evil.

       I thought of the word "rip" for it seemed rather strong language for
  the Lord, but again His voice spoke clearly and very firmly. "Have you for-
  gotten that I ripped the veil of the temple of the Holy of Holies from top
  to bottom on the day that my Son died on the Cross for the world?"  And as
  He spoke this, I saw a great dark covering like a blanket over the world
  and I saw it rip right up the middle by His power and glory.  The Holy of
  Holies is no longer hidden behind a veil of a temple, but as Jesus said,
  He has come to establish His Kingdom in the hearts of men, and now that
  veil of Satanic darkness that covers the minds and the hearts of believ-
  ers, and non-believers as well, is about to be ripped out of the world so
  that men can see the wonderful glory of God.  No man has ever seen the
  glory of God in Jesus Christ as He really is, for He is far more wonder-
  ful, far more loving and far more kind, far more merciful and glorious
  than anything the mind of man can conceive of, but on that day all men
  will see Him as He truly is and fall on their faces before Him.  It will
  be the fulfillment of the Scriptures that say, "Before Him every knee
  shall bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord."

       As I sat there shaken by the glory of the Lord, the thought came to
  check on the date, so I got out of bed and went into the other room, turned
  on the light and checked the calendar that I had on my desk, and at first I
  was shocked, for June the 9th is on a Wednesday, not Thursday.  I thought,
  "Is Satan trying to play some kind of trick?"  But before I could complete
  the thought, that great wonderful voice spoke again and said, "Check 1994."
  I did, and there it was, Thursday, June 9th, 1994.  The hair on the back of
  my neck literally stood up and the power of the Lord just shook me as I
  stood there.

       Then He spoke to me again and said,  "Read Isaiah 25, beginning with
  verse 6."  Verse 6 speaks of the great feast prepared on the mountain of
  the Lord, and of course the mountain is Jesus Who has prepared the great
  forgiving love of God for the whole world.  And then in verse 7 it says,
  "And He will destroy on this mountain the covering that is cast over all
  peoples, the veil that is spread over all nations."  And this was a direct
  confirmation of ripping the veil of darkness and evil out of this world.

       Verse 8 says, "He will swallow up death forever, and the Lord God will
  wipe away tears from all faces, and the reproach of HIs people He will take
  away from all the earth; for the Lord has spoken."  I cannot tell you how
  my heart and soul rejoiced as I read these words that we would live to see
  the fulfillment of God's mighty promise for His people.

       Verse 9 says, "It will be said on that day, 'Lo, this is our God; we
  have waited for Him, that He might save us.  This is the Lord; we have
  waited for Him; let us be glad and rejoice in His salvation.'"  Praise God,
  at that time, the world will truly see God in all of His perfect love and
  glory reaching out to mankind, and I believe that millions at that time
  will say, "This is our God!", and accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
  The cloud of unknowing and doubt will be gone and the glory of the Lord in
  all of His love will attract millions to Him.

       In verse 10, He speaks of the overcoming of all the evil, and again  
  let me say that this is not the Second Coming, this is the revelation of the
  power and glory of God in Jesus Christ to all the world as a great cleans- 
  ing.
 
       He then referred me to Isaiah 40, verse 5, and it says, "And the glory
  of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together, for the
  mouth of the Lord has spoken."  When He says "revealed" it means that we
  are able to see or comprehend something that was there all the time but did
  not know it, or were unable to see it.  We cannot see in a dark room until
  the light is turned on.  Then the things in the room are revealed.  As I
  read the Scriptures, I believe there's a great difference between the day
  Jesus is revealed and the day He comes for His people.  I believe that God
  is coming to His people before he comes for his people.

       He referred me to Luke 17, beginning with verse 20, and it says the
  Kingdom of God is in our midst, but we do not know it yet.  Verse 30 says,
  "So it will be on the day when the Son of man is revealed."  And then He
  goes on to speak of following Him and not turning back for anything into
  the great new way of life and glory He has prepared for us.  Verse 34
  speaks of the cleansing when the evil is being taken out, one person taken,
  one left.  And when the disciples asked Him, "Where, Lord?" He said to them,
  "Where the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together."  Which of  
  course is not the Rapture, but the cleansing.

       He also spoke to me concerning Matthew 13, concerning the parable of
  the wheat and the tares, and I quote verse 41: "The Son of man will send
  His angels, and they will gather out of His Kingdom all causes of sin and
  all evildoers, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep
  and hnash their teeth.  THEN THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE LIKE THE SUN IN THE
  KINGDOM OF THEIR FATHER."  Praise God for the cleansing and for the pre-
  cious shed blood of our Lord Jesus Christ that takes away the sin of the
  world!  Now that great truth is about to be revealed before the whole
  world.

       Remember the message and pray with all your heart for His great
  cleansing power to come upon the whole world and, of course, beginning with
  each one of us who believe.  "ON THURSDAY, JUNE THE 9TH, 1994, I WILL RIP
  THE EVIL OUT OF THIS WORLD."  Praise God for His glorious victory in Jesus
  Christ and the power of the blessed Holy Spirit to reveal this to everyone
  who believes.  For the believer, always remember Revelation 3:10 when the 
  Lord said, "I will protect you from the hour of trial that's coming upon
  the whole world."  Praise God for our great wonderful loving Father Who is
  fulfilling His promise of love for the whole world.  Thy Kingdom come, Thy
  will be done on earth as it is in Heaven.

       "When the Spirit of Truth comes, He will guide you into all the truth;
  for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will
  speak, and He will declare to you the things that are to come."  (John
  16:13)

	<this line contained an offer of a cassette copy of this sermon,>
	<with a request for a donation to help defray costs>
	<To avoid any appearence of "solicitation", this has been omitted>

  Address:	Pastor John J. Hinkle
		Christ Church
		P.O. Box 75275
		Los Angeles, CA
		90075

       Come quickly, Lord Jesus, Amen!

    I will be posting several entries on this topic which I extracted from
    America Online :
    
    	Lifestyles/Religion&Ethics/Bulletin Boards/Christian Doctrine/
    	Topic: Chastisement and Renewal.
    
    There is a whole series at that location of words given to David
    Griffis. He along with Rev. John Hinkel both independently received
    the June 9th date. A description Hinkel's experience has been
    reposted in .28.
    
    I will add several given by David Griffis beginning with the prophecy
    of the June 9th date. These are under a heading entitled FOR SUCH A
    TIME AS THIS. I'm only posting the ones that seem to most directly
    apply to this topic. I do not know any of these people but I must say
    that the manner in which these people describe their spiritual
    experiences and scriptural confirmations has given more gravity
    to the postings. They have a ring of authenticity about them that
    even others have commented upon.
    
    I will then post three entries of prophecy given by Kim Clement which
    concern the USA and possibly the world. In part #3 the person who
    posted them mentions that it is prophecy for June 1994.
    
    It is interesting to me that in this one Clement also received 
    Heb12:25; it is the same scripture that I received on 18-APRIL
    in relationship to the words I received from the Lord and posted
    here.
    
    Finally, there is a posting of words given to Kelly Rashe, a
    church memeber of one of the posters.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary

Subj:  For Such A Time -14
Date:  94-05-11 14:20:47 EDT
From:  DUKEOFDISC

FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS - 14
 (from David Griffis spiritual log: Renewal Ministries
  Box 740100, Arvada Co. 80004)

       A  SPECIAL  DATE  (received Sept 1, 1993)

This day I heard the Lord speak and I saw a picture in
my mind.  I heard, *"June the 9th."*  I saw the date in
my mind and I saw "85."  Then I heard "Ten times
worse."  My immediate thought was that this meant
disaster, and probably an earthquake.

      THE SEARCH

At the office that day, I sent my secretary, Veta, to
the library.  My thinking was that something must have
happened on June 9, 1985, and something was about to
happen that would be ten times worse.  She didn't find
anything significant.  I only told a few people, but
when I told Peter Warren, he immediately thought of 8.5
on the Richter scale for an earthquake.

On September 9th, I spoke at the Rocky Mountain Bible
Institute chapel service and shared a few prophetic
things the Lord had given me.  After chapel, a lady
came up to me and showed me some notes she had taken
from a TBN program back in May.  From her notes I
learned that a man named John Hinkle said the Lord had
given him the date, Thursday, June 9th, and on that day
something special was going to happen.  He checked the
calendar and found Thursday, June 9th, was in 1994.

Although I have been greatly moved that God had spoken
this specific date to me, I have said nothing about the
date while teaching at YWAM, because it is so specific,
and I have not had confirmation.  I know now that I
have to find this man, John Hinkle.

Subj:  For Such A Time - 18
Date:  94-05-13 11:47:26 EDT
From:  DUKEOFDISC

[from the spritual log of David Griffis
Renewal Ministries, Box 74010,
Arvada Colo, 80006-0100]

FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS - 18
October 14, 1993

                     SPECIAL DATE - CONFIRMATION

Today, I talked to Pastor John Hinkle!  We are both
greatly excited that we have found each other.  Praise
God, he is an older gray-haired man.  The Bible tells
us to learn form such men.

On the phone, he told me his story, and I told him
mine.  In addition to the specific  date, he received
the scriptures; Isaiah 25:5-9, Luke 17:20,21, Matthew
13 and Isaiah 4:5.  (Pastor Hinkle heard the Lord speak
in an audible voice and say, "On Thursday, June 9th, I
will remove evil from the earth.")  We are both very
excited.  He wants to fly out to visit.  We hung up.

A little while later he called back with flight
information to come Tuesday, October 19th.  When he
shared with his wife the part I had gotten from the
Lord, she felt the Spirit say that the numbers 8,5
meant Revelation 8:5. "And the angel took the censer;
and he filled it with the fire of the altar and threw
it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder
and sounds of flashes of lightning and an earthquake."

As I started to tell this story to another lady who
knew nothing about my vision, I said the "8,5" and she
blurted out, "Revelation" before I could finish.  This
seems to be another confirmation.

I believe God has said this event is a consequence of
our sin and that if we repent, it does not have to
happen.  Like Ninevah, it is real, but can be averted.

Subj:  For Such A Time - 21
Date:  94-05-18 11:52:55 EDT
From:  DUKEOFDISC

[from the spiritual log of David Griffis
Renewal Ministries, PO Box 740100
Arvada Colo  80006-0100]

          FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS - 21
          December 06, 1993
          WHAT IF NO ONE LISTENS?

I heard this word while in prayer.

"I am like a brooding chicken.  I will spread out My
wings to protect My little ones.  They will be
protected from the rain at Judgment.  All will fail; no
security in sight."

"Look to the Jews.  They are a sign for you."

"Do not be afraid, but do prepare.  It will be as
Jonah, and it will be as Noah.  It is still not too
late, but the time grows short.  Why do My people not
pray and turn from their vile ways?  It is not My
desire to bring this next calamity. It will be felt by
the entire earth.  This is all I need to speak; it is
as Noah.  Most will not listen, but do not be afraid. 
It will come to pass if My people do not bend their
knee in humility before Me.  Sin is great, but no one
seems to really care and change."

I asked, "What if no one listens?"

"So!  Has man ever listened to My warning?  Prepare
your family, but if no one listens, be at peace.  It is
not you they reject, it is Me."

"Do not watch from day to day.  It will change like the
wind.  An event is on the horizon.  Watch to the East. 
Even as the sun rises, so will the sign come from the
East."

Subj:  For Such A Time-22
Date:  94-05-19 12:37:14 EDT
From:  DUKEOFDISC

[From the spiritual log of David Griffis
Renewal Ministries, Arvada Colo]

        FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS - 22
           (December 10, 1993)
         
          FOR THE NIGHT COMES

I received this word during prayer time.

"Pray that this calamity will not have to happen to
bring them to their knees and out of their sin.  The
diseases from sex sins will increase in great
magnitude.  Everyone must turn from their wicked way. 
I am sad that they do not listen to My spirit or to my
messengers.  They will pay.  Cry and wail for them. 
This is their last chance; the time grows short. I grow
weary of their slow progress.  I am tired of their
complaining.  In their excess, they cry for more.  Do
they not see the gracious spirit I have poured out on
them?  It will change to a spirit of disaster."

"The world has not seen such things.  It will be
cataclysmic.  Prepare in the natural and spiritual. 
Work while it is day for the night comes when no man
can work.  My message has not changed.  The conditions
are the same.  My people must repent and turn form
their wicked ways for Me not to bring this forth."

"There will be great glory also, but for a great price;
the disaster of a nation.  I have built this great city
to share My Word among the nations.  It spends its
wealth upon itself. What greed and what luxury it has.
Has any nation been so blessed?  Has any people been so
provided for?  It will burn in an instant.  Watch and
see.  Do not be afraid.  It will not consume you, but I
must judge this evil of defilement.  the blood of the
little ones cries out from the earth."

"Tell all who will listen, but do not be discouraged by
those who do not listen.  This calamity is great and
hard to comprehend, but it will come to pass if My
people do not come clean from their sexual sins.  Why
does the world have to see it on TV?  Why are my
shepherds so defiled?  More to come.  I must sweep My
house clean form such things."

Subj:  For Such A Time - 19
Date:  94-05-14 02:20:00 EDT
From:  DUKEOFDISC

[from the spiritual log of David Griffis
Renewal Ministries - Box 740100
Arvada Colo,  80006-0100]

FOR SUCH A TIME AS THIS - 19
November 05, 1993

                    COMMERCE INTERRUPTED

My mind and heart are heavy concerning June 9th.  I
feel it will be such a shaking.  As I lay down tonight,
I reread some of the words the Lord has given me
concerning revival and judgment.  I heard the Lord
speak in my mind.

"Commerce will be interrupted.  The earth will be black
with smoke; distress as never before.  Prepare in the
natural and in the spiritual.  I am angry at all the
nations, they will feel my fury.  Commerce will be
interrupted. *Everything to this point has been a
warning.*  It is not my heart or desire to bring this
next calamity.  I want My people to turn from their
wicked ways."

"My house is still an abomination.  Many of the
shepherds still sleep with the sheep in infidelity.  It
should not be so.  It will not be allowed to continue
unchecked."

"Multitudes, multitudes in the Valley of Decision. 
They must turn from the chaff.  It will burn in an
instant in My wrath.  Why do they require the rod?  It
should not be so."

"Arise and shout!  The day of judgment and darkness is
at hand.  All will know and see that I am the Creator,
but all will not believe.  Do not fear.  Write the
words that I say, for they will come to pass unless My
people turn from their wicked way.  Pray.  Pray.  Pray. 
You are not abandoned.  You are not alone.  It will
come to pass says the Lord God.  No eye has seen what I
am about to bring forth."

                    PERSONAL

He then turned His attention to me, personally, and
said, "I will reveal more if you will sit at my feet. 
TV is a curse to you.  The time I would talk, you are
watching the natural news.  Why?  It will change from
day to day.  Visit Me, and I will show you the great
things to come."

Subj:  June 1994- Kim Clement pt. 1
Date:  94-05-07 13:31:23 EDT
From:  Desver9

An excerpt from the Internet discussion.
**************
 I heard Pastor Hinkle on TBN when he presented this word from the Lord
 earlier this year (actually I taped the program). TBN also had a prophet
 named Paul Cain on the Praise The Lord program who spoke along these same
 lines. I wasn't familiar with Paul Cain's ministry until I read Jack
 Deere's new book "Surprised By the Power of the Spirit". Then just a 
 couple of weeks ago, they had another prophet on PTL, Kim Clement from
 South Africa (new book The "Voice of God" or something like that). I
 transcribed his prophecy from the video tape I made of the program. They
 were discussing a prophecy that he had made in 1992 when he began to 
 prophecy on TV...some of the newer prophecy helped to clarify or 
 interpret what the 1992 prophecy was:

Kim Clement 9-30-92:

"In this land I have called my own people. A land that is the only nation that
has declared Christ as their God. You say there is much evil in this nation
but God says there is also much good. And this group of people tonite as you
have shouted your shout has come up into the heaven of heavens and I have said
to the Father, "What is it that they are asking for?" And there was a cry that
came from the hearts of these people in unity, "Righteousness. May
righteousness prevail in this nation, oh God." 

And I said I will visit the Supreme Court myself. Yes I will. For I am the
Supreme Justice. And there will be a sudden turn of events. And my children
within the schools will be able to open their mouths and declare My name. And
I will do it myself says the Lord.

A new president. A sudden death. And God says many will be shaken and say, "Who
do we do turn to now? And suddenly says the Lord from all over this nation the
sounds of praise shall come from the senate. The sounds of praise shall come
from the house of representatives. The sounds of praise shall come from the top
and they will know that there is only One who that able to save this nation and
it is I. And I will visit you again America. I will visit you again with a
great visitation says the Lord, yes I will.

And I will visit you. I will visit you again. It will be greater than 300
years ago. It shall be the final visitation. And let this be known to my
people that if you would continue and be one as I have prayed that you would
be one this nation shall bring the Muslems, the Islamic people to their knees.
Not by war nor by weapons but by the power of His Word. The prophets shall go
from this nation to the east. China will be crying out the words that have
been taught by the people that I am sending from this nation. Japan, Iran and
suddenly, says the Lord, there will be an incredible unity in the body. But I
will visit you again America but this time it shall not be a visitation but it
shall be a habitation of My Glory and My Presence. This is My promise. This is
My promise. and this shall be fulfilled by 1995. As I have promised says the
Lord this is My promise, yes it will be so."

Subj:  June 1994- Kim Clement pt. 2
Date:  94-05-07 13:33:27 EDT
From:  Desver9

Kim's explanation:

300 years ago: great awakening in the US 300 years ago. At this same time
witchcraft (occult) was being sown - in Salem, Mass. 1692 5 citizens were
hanged for witchcraft from Feb - Sept, 1692 (20 hangings). 

At the same time religious liberty was planted, the enemy was sowing
seeds of the bondage's of occultism in this country. 2 years after 
witchcraft was planted into the US, slavery and addiction (rum traficking) 
was introduced into this culture. 

The Lord is going to deal with this--the reverse will happen. While he
was interpreting what the prophecy meant, the Spirit of the Lord came on
him and he began to prophecy:

(April 13, 1994 on TBN Kim Clement)

In fact,

"The Spirit of the Lord says I will raise up a brand new and a fresh and a
powerful anointing thats going to destroy and expose the hidden works of
darkness. Do you realize that this nation has been called by God and I will not
change my mind, I will not change my mind says the Lord. This is the beginning
of a tremmor this is the beginning of a shaking. But even though the ground is
shaken says the Lord even though the ground is shaken from beneath you God
says there will be a shaking in the heavenlies and a mighty move of My Spirit.
Haven't I promised to this nation that there will liberty and that there will
be freedom. Why must there be freedom for this nation because it shall go from
this nation to others and especially to the east says the Lord. Therefore get
ready for even as the enemy tried to destroy and bring addictions and bring
witchcraft upon the nation so liberty and revival is about to take place like
you have never seen. For this is the final move of My Spirit. This is the
final thing that I'm preparing for your hearts to do. Therefore get ready says
the Lord for I'm about to charge you with my power and my anointing and it
shall flow over into the schools and into the government. Surely I'm about to
judge. I'm about to judge from the very top says the the Lord. And the
judgement has already begun and it will not go by June before it is absolutely
done with saith the Lord. Therefore rejoice people of God. For I'm about to
bring a flame of fire that will reach out not only in this nation but it shall
go beyond the border says the Lord and yeah there shall be an economic
breakthrough that will take place as a result of this that I'm going to do.
Therefore take it now. Take My Word and rejoice for I will bring about the
greatest move of The  Spirit that this nation has ever seen and the people will
shake and they will rejoice because of this that I've said tonite. It is so and
it shall be done for I have spoken says the Spirit of the Living God.
Hallelujah."

Subj:  June 1994- Kim Clement pt. 3
Date:  94-05-07 13:36:01 EDT
From:  Desver9

Excerpt from the Internet discussion regarding prophecy and the month of June, 1994.
***********
After this word he said what he was seeing while he was giving this word:

He saw that this struggle we're going through now is not because we are going
to be taken out of here right now but because of this final awakening, this
final move which is the later glory. Satan knows his time is short and has come
with great fury against us...

CONTINUING THE INTERPREATION OF THE FIRST WORD:

First word (Sept. 1992) George Bush was the top pick but Clinton got the
election.

Death - spiritual death...sudden turn of events...could be a death of a ruling
power. Whatever the death, a turn of events will happen after this. The
praising of His name from the senate, etc. Praising doesn't always mean singing
hymns. Saying what God wants to be said is declaring His praise.

Many are shaken by the event...

-----

What about the kingdom? There'll be a shaking.

Heb 12:25
The things that can be shaken will be removed.
The things that CANNOT be shaken cannot be removed.
The receiving of the kingdom CANNOT be shaken.

v 28
We are receiving a kingdom

Dan 7:5
receive and possess the kingdom...

prevailing against the saints...judgement made...time for the saints to
possess the kingdom... 

v26 they shall take away his kingdom...

This process talked about in Daniel could begin in June
The church is going to get to its most glorius state and be visible and be
seen.

In the later days I will pour out my spirit...

What rips evil out the world any better than the Holy Spirit pouring out upon
the earth people getting saved...

Subj:  Re:What now?  ...well...
Date:  94-05-23 20:02:41 EDT
From:  Desver9

A sister from my church got a word from God which I believe is related to the June prophecies.  It is as follows:

Kelly Rashe  4-16-93:

"Watch and listen to what I am about to do.  News of it will reach from nation to nation.  All those who do not know me will be greatly afraid.

But to those who know me, this will be a sign of comfort, of excitement, of the beginning of coming things.

Listen and know that I am your God.  I have planned this for a purpose.  Now I will begin to tie up all the loose ends.  I am telling you only as you will not be afraid when it comes.

You can rejoice.

You can comfort others and lift them up.

You can tell them about your God."

    Is this the same Griffis that works for DEC?

    No. You're thinking of Greg Griffis; these postings are from DAVID
    Griffis.
    
    

    can you reformat and repost .38?
    
    thanks
    p

Subj:  Re:What now?  ...well...
Date:  94-05-23 20:02:41 EDT
From:  Desver9

A sister from my church got a word from God which I believe is related to the 
June prophecies.  It is as follows:

Kelly Rashe  4-16-93:

"Watch and listen to what I am about to do.  News of it will reach from nation
to nation.  All those who do not know me will be greatly afraid.

But to those who know me, this will be a sign of comfort, of excitement, of 
the beginning of coming things.

Listen and know that I am your God.  I have planned this for a purpose.  Now 
I will begin to tie up all the loose ends.  I am telling you only as you will 
not be afraid when it comes.

You can rejoice.

You can comfort others and lift them up.

You can tell them about your God."

  Has anyone heard about the flesh eating virus which has invaded England?
  rumor has it that its here in America now.

  James 5:3 

  Hank

    From what I've heard, the "flesh eating virus" is a mutant
    (streptococcus) bacteria that has some nasty side effects of destroying
    tissue.  They say it can be treated with penicillin.

    Mark L.

 I don't doubt the Lord's ability or desire to do *something* to get
 the attention of those who would deny Him.  However, as I drive around
 the town in which I live (Derry, NH) I see posters pasted on light poles,
 and various other objects asking "Are you ready for the Rapture..Oct 22, 
 1992?", and wonder where are those folks who were "given" this date, and
 should nothing of consequence occur on June 9th (and it may very well 
 occur) where will those who were "given" this date be?





Jim

  Re .45 Oct 1992  Where are they

  dejavu... William Miller and the Great disappointment.

  June 1994? Where will they be?

  uh, right here on planet earth?

  In any case, as someone has already said, we should be already be in 
  a state of readiness and watching. All these "prohecies" which have been 
  given are really "prophetic"  they dont say anything that is not already 
  revealed in one way or another (except for the date).

  Perhaps Our Father is sending a message through humans, but its because 
  we are (imo) weak in the "meat" of scripture.

  This one seems different though, Catholics, protestants, etc...

  Lets hope for the best. We all want the slaughter to stop.

  Hank

    that new virus sounds like leprosy.
    
    BTW - last night's CBS national news had a blurb about how ineffective
    antibiotics are against all these new strands.

Yes, I saw an article on Prodigy from the wire services on this nasty
strain of streptococcus.

I also read an article a few weeks ago -- extremely frightening -- in
Newsweek which said that a large number of deadly bacteria which we
have had conquered for many years are developing resistances, one by
one, to all the antibiotics we have to fight them. For some of these,
there is only one known antibiotic left which is effective against them.
As a result, diseases which we conquered long ago are rising up again
and we are becoming powerless to stop them.

Even MORE frightening, these buggers have learned how to exchange DNA
with other kinds of bacteria and share their resistance!  That's right!
Totally unrelated bacteria are able to do their own genetic engineering
and give their resistance to a particular antibiotic to another bacterium
which is not yet resistant to it yet!  They even gave an example of two
deadly bacteria which are resistant to different drugs, and said that all
it would take is the two of them to meet and exchange genetic 
resistances, and then one or both would be unconquerable to all known 
antibiotics!

It was a real doomsday scenario.  It was surprising to see such alarm in
a secular, mainstream news article.

Eric

    News show reports new, deadly, airborn viruses...don't know where they
    come from or how to cure them.
    
    Sorry, I watched this a couple weeks ago, and due to my continual channel
    surfing, I can't remember the station or the name of the news show.
    
    Not a lot of reports of it yet, but...

    Concerning dates.....
    
    I have not read any of the books that have given dates for the Rapture
    or anything else for that matter, but I have read some of the
    discussion and summaries on them in this file. It is my understanding
    that these past dates were derived through attempts to calculate them
    on the basis of certain models and 'theorms' taken from scripture.
    If the underlying 'theorms' the person had proposed was faulty then
    the derived date would also be wrong.
    
    The 'June 9th date' was not derived by Hinkel and Griffis, but they
    received this date independent of one another. This is another 
    category because it is not based on human evaluation or reason, but
    it is given as prophecy.
    
    Am I correct about the past foundation of former dates or have
    some of them come through prophecy?
    
    I know last summer a friend and I heard of a woman who was receiving
    prophecy including dates for certain cataclysmic events. My friend
    was invited to a talk she gave but it was very evident that this woman
    was not reflecting the Lord. She became intimidating and annoyed when
    people were not receiving her messages which involved not only the
    calamities but such advice like 'its too late to pray for others' and
    'stock up on food and supplies' and speaking against the church and
    others thought to be holy people. My friend, and indeed the whole
    group rejected her almost instinctivly at the time but in discussing
    it with me later we could both see why. Of course the prophecies all
    turned out to be bogus. 
    
    True prophets of God will always encourage us to trust in Him and
    to see His true light and have hope and faith in Him. There is always
    hope because we know God is a loving God and therefore does not in
    any way seek our destruction nor does He punish us gratuitously.
    Whatever He permits or sends is ment for the benefit of our eternal
    souls. It is better to undergo a tribulation, any tribulation which
    God sees as necessary to save our soul from eternal damnation.
    
    In the process of saving souls through such extreme measures,
    Christians are called upon to bear heavy burdens of sacrifice and
    persecution also. It is an opportunity to participate in the Lord's
    plan of salvation by being good witnesses. We may also have to see
    certain securities fall away and we may also have to grow in our own
    trust in God's providence for us. But, we are already guaranteed that
    He will be our strength; God's grace is sufficient for us if we act
    in trust.
    
    As God acts to rid the world of evil and injustice we are to be there
    as active, although far junior 'partners' to effect God's plan in the
    world and being a witness that beacons people to God. 
    
    To receive prophecy from God which is meant for our particular time
    helps us to know that this is an act of God at work and it gives us
    an added confidence. This does not negate the fullness of scripture
    prophecy, but rather it confirms that the time is now. If the
    Spirit gives prophecy it is meant for our good, even if we do not
    recognize it at the time.
    
    I think also, that the content of much prophecy is meant for
    unbelievers. However at this time there is such a denial of the
    spiritual that it is not even heard. The Warning, if this is indeed
    that Mercy of God which awakens people, will open them up to God's
    constant attempts for their conversion and salvation.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary 
    
    

	RE: .48


	Kind of sounds like what AIDS does, which makes it hard to find a cure.

    I looked back on the preceeding notes, and I'm not sure what is
    prophesied to happen on June 9.  One note speaks of a warning, with a
    visual event that all will see, people being shown their sins and being
    urged to repent.  The original note talks about the evil in this world
    being ripped out of the world.  Other notes are less focused, but talk
    of different things.  Well, what is it?  I'm sure the Lord isn't
    confused.....
    
    - Don

    re: .52
    
    Don,  
    
    The prophecies mentioning the dates seem to speak of cataclysmic
    events. However it is often the case, even in scripture, that a
    few passages in even one prophecy spans a large timeframe. Therefore
    I think it is helpful to get a wider sense of how and what the Spirit
    has been giving people lately. Perhaps we are not meant to discern
    something exactly but to understand certain qualities about it.
    
    The events might start our with an 'illumination of conscience' and
    then move into other prophetic elements. Or perhaps it will only
    involve a natural event in which people start to sense 'we're not
    in Kansas anymore....!" 
    
    My own approach is to sense the Times, prepare spiritually through
    prayer and examination of conscience [ongoing anyway, as it should
    be], try to encourage others along the same path particularly in
    conversion, and to take some small material measures out of 
    prudence. I know if something big happens than these prophecies will
    give me strength to know that God loves us enough to warn us and it
    will help enbolden subsequent witness.
    
    If nothing happens then I will still believe very firmly that we are
    on the edge of such a major event because there is still a great
    spiritual ourpouring which is calling for conversion to God and
    preparedness.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary
    

    The next several entries are from my spiritual journals. They relate
    to this topic in the broader sense as described in .53. I don't have
    any SPECIFIC reason to believe that any of these will happen on
    June 9th, but they do give a sense of the Spirit's messages concerning
    what is ahead.  
    
    The first, called the "Red X List Prophecy" is the most important and
    encompassing of them all, not for the vision itself but in the 
    scripture that was given as an interpertation. Several of the elements
    of this prophecy can be seen in many others posted here and elsewhere.
    
    I hope that noters in CHRISTIAN [particularly the moderators! :)] will
    consider that they should be allowed in this file and topic.
    
    Despite the omnious note that many of these strike, the Lord has only
    made me more and more at peace and confident in His Will for us all.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary
                                         

    
    
    
    Visions:		Red X - sign of God's nearing Justice

Source:			Mary L. Nelson
			24 Athol St.
			Danielson, CT, 06239

Dates :			Red X List Vision  --  02/28/93
			Exekiel 8 - 11 readings  --  03/02/93
    			Red X List Vision given again  -- about 11/22/93

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Red X List Vision  --  02/28/93

I was in prayer which began as concern over the World Trade Center 
bombing that had occurred a few days earlier; this particularly concerned 
me because I had received a vision in December 1992 of a huge bombing; this 
event was not similar to the vision, but it prompted the time of prayer. I 
was given a nine-day rosary novena for these prayer intentions. 

Right after that, I received this vision:

I saw a list on a small notepad. The writing on each line was brief, like 
bullet statements, and there were approximately 9-12 lines. I could not 
read the writing on any line. All the lines were written in black ink except 
for one line. About 2/3 down the list, one line was all in red and was 
proceeded by a large red X. This seemed to be both important and also 
ominous.

I did not know if this related or not to my earlier prayers or the novena 
and I pondered the meaning of this prayerfully over the next days.

Meaning given in Scripture  --  03/02/93

Two days after receiving the vision, I felt a particular call to attend our 
weekly charismatic prayer meeting although I was feeling the first effects 
of the flu. The meeting began with Mass and during the Eucharist I had 
a deep interior sorrow for the Church and the abuses within her. I also 
had a vision of Jesus; it was during His Passion after he was beaten and he 
was very weak yet he was reaching out in an imploring way to us. 

At the beginning of the prayer meeting which followed the Mass, I 
received "Ezekiel 8-11". I briefly looked at Ezekiel 8:11 but it did not 
indicate anything to me. Near the end of the prayer meeting I once again 
received, "Ezekiel 8-11" and this time I briefly looked at the Chapters 
8-11 instead of just 8:11 and understood immediately that it was in 
reference to the Red X list vision from two days before. 


Chapter 8 has to do with Abominations in the Temple and God's
resolve to purify the temple of them. This is significant to me because I 
have had at least 3 dreams relating to the Church in this regard and part 
of the last reminded me in particular of one of the verses (EZEK 8:10). 
Chapter 8 specifically deals with the priests who give adoration to false
idols in the temple which are, of course, abominations. [The biggest
false idol I see all the time is that of a secular humanistic and material-
istic faith vision; many priests [and other shepherds] have become worldly
and, in effect, give more 'power' to such things as psychology and politics
to change lives than to God, His Word, Church and Sacraments.]

Chapter 9 is the one that really made me sit up and take notice. God sends 
his angel to mark the forehead of those who grieve over the abominations 
in the temple with an X..........those marked with the X are not harmed 
during the wiping out of the abominations and those who practice them. 
God says that He will start first with the sanctuary and go outward from 
there.   [I only later observed that at the Mass before the scripture was 
given to me, I had been led to grieve over the abuses in the Church and 
see Jesus so scourged and neglected; this confirmed to me the scripture 
and its association with the vision.]

Chapter 10 is of God leaving the sanctuary; this is the first vision I 
received from the Lord in May 1989 after being filled with the Holy Spirit. 
We may be nearing the time when the Mass and Eucharist will be taken 
away from the daily life of the Church. It may be the time when it is only 
available through an 'underground church'.

Chapter 11 is the judgment of the princes and the restoration of the exiles.

In the months that passed, I understood the 'Red X List' to be events that 
would occur -- warnings or signs for the world.


'Red X List' Vision given again  -- about 11/22/93

I was given two quick visions, one after another, of the same 'Red X List' 
Vision that I had in February. In both of these visions, I was drawn to 'scan 
down the list'. I did not think to do this, I just did. In both times, I was 
stopped at the *same place* on the list and not allowed to go down the list 
any further. The place where I was stopped was about 2 lines above the Red 
X line on the list.

I understand this to mean that the 'Red X' event is nearing. From the 
association given to this in Exekiel 9, we are nearing a significant moment 
of God's Justice, particularly in regards to the purification of His Church. 

Subject:		Harvest Vision

Source:			Mary Nelson
			24 Athol St. 
			Danielson, CT 06239

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

The following vision occurred in the morning of 18-JAN-1994.
The vision was in two sections and the second image directly followed 
the first.

      The first image was of an implement made of what appeared to be cast 
iron metal rods. They were black and sturdy but thin. The rods all met at 
the center and radiated outward. Each of the outer tips, about 1/5 of the 
length, was bent slightly to the right, in the clockwise direction. There 
wasn't really a hub in the middle. Although the overall shape was not that 
of a rake, the bend of the tips reminded me of a lawn rake.

      Right after this image faded away, I saw the earth as a globe in space. 
It came plummeting towards me at high speed as if in a free fall or out of 
control. The earth was rotating as it came towards me. I could see the 
colors of the earth - blues, browns, and white. I saw the Americas and 
then the continent of Asia although I was seeing them upside down rather 
than in the usual orientation.

I wrote up an account of this vision for a network friend and as I wrote it, 
I described the association I had made with a lawn rake. With this, I realized 
that the implement was associated with the rake in another way; the implement 
was a harvester. This resonated deeply with me. 

My interpretation of the vision:  We are spinning out of control and
 'upside down' as we are now.  The Harvest of the earth is nearing!

Pray, pray, pray!

Vision:		Promise of God's Protection

Source:			Mary L. Nelson
			24 Athol St. 
			Danielson, CT  06239

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vision recorded on September 17, 1993; it occurred either on that day 
or shortly beforehand while in a time of prayer and intercessory sacrifice:


	Jesus was on a large cross outside the office of My Father's House 
	Retreat Center. To the west there were two very black funnel-shaped 
	clouds; they looked like tornadoes, but they were very dense with 
	black smoke like from an oil fire. It seemed that Jesus on the cross 
	prevented them from touching the Retreat Center.

I recorded this in my spiritual diary and thought no more about it, but 
over the next several days it kept coming back to me; on 9/25 it came to 
mind several times which made me feel that perhaps God wished me to 
do something with it. 

I asked God that if He wished me to give this to the Directors of My 
Father's House, then to give me a scripture reading that was a firm 
correlation to this vision. I prayed over the Bible to the Holy Spirit 
and then opened it blindly and put my hand down on EXODUS 12:21-23 
which reads:

	"Moses called all the elders of Israel and said to them, "Go and 
	procure lambs for your families, and slaughter them as Passover 
	victims. Then take a bunch of hyssop, and dipping it in the blood 
	that is in the basin, sprinkle the lintel and the two doorposts 
	with this blood. But none of you shall go outdoors until morning. 
	For the Lord will go by, striking down the Egyptians. Seeing the 
	blood on the lintel and the two doorposts, the Lord will pass over 
	that door and not let the destroyer come into your houses to strike 
	you down." 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This also confirmed the Director's own prayerful understanding that the 
Retreat Center would be protected by God and that it was indeed a 
place of refuge.

Beyond this specific application, I see it as a general warning to us all 
that these apocalyptic times are nearing. 
 

Dream/Visions:		Time of Day of Darkness/Various

Source:			Mary L. Nelson
				24 Athol St.
				Danielson, CT  06239

Date:			weekend of January 23/24, 1993

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

While in prayer I sort of nodded into a dream/vision state in which I 
was still partly aware of my surroundings in the room. A unique 
series of dream/visions followed. 

Beautiful Graphic

It began with a very very beautiful "graphic"; numerous very thin and 
delicate rays of light emanated in two different directions from a point 
and they bent around so that the tips were in front of my eyes; 
suddenly, the tips of the delicate white rays burst into very beautiful 
and very clear colors. I remember brilliantly clear blues and reds in 
particular. 

It was very beautiful and 'loving' and it impressed me a lot since it seemed 
to be beyond my own imagination and creative ability. I've never had 
anything like this. It had a delicate 'feminine' quality which I associated 
with Our Lady.

3-Day 'Dream/Vision' :

It was not actually the 3-days [of Darkness], but more like a warning of 
its nearness.

I went to my sliding door to let a cat in and it was open about 10 inches. 
The postman had just been to my back porch to drop off a package so I 
knew it was *about 2 - 3 PM* , the normal time for our postal delivery. I was 
alarmed that the sky was so terribly dark and I felt the darkness increasing 
dramatically. The door was open for my cat and I wanted to close it, but I 
was all entangled somehow in my curtains. I was wrapped in them and 
could not get my hands free to close the door. This made me anxious since 
I knew that it would be death to keep the door open. For a time I could not 
even see out, but I was able to get my head out of the curtains and I saw 
that there was still some light and the darkness was not quite here yet.

[Personal message to me - I'm too 'wrapped up with the material'!]

Series of brief visions/messages: 

I saw a book of prophesy open before me; I could almost make out the 
words, but not quite.

Then St. Jude came to mind, but I forgot or do not know the context.

Then I understood that Satan was fighting against the gospel and against 
the Apostles.  [I had never considered that Satan was fighting against 
the Apostles before!]

The session concluded with a dream that was personal for me but which 
was a call by God to be spiritually prepared and to repair a situation in 
my life:

My mother was with me and this took place in my home entrance way. It 
was not actually my entrance because the walls were of very white tiles. 
It was raining outside and had been for quite some time. Apparently there 
was a leak in the poarch roofing because the rain was coming in above 
the entrance ceiling and a tremendous amount of mildew was lining the 
ceiling and wall joints. I asked my mother what to do and if the Lysol 
spray would help. (The mildew was monsterous in size.) She said that it is 
easier to prevent than to rid once it is there. Then to my dismay, I noticed 
that the wall tiles were buckling from the moisture and about to come 
down. I was able to press them back in place. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------

I have further reflected on this message and I see the following :


1) correspondence with the 2 pm EST start to the darkness which was
	given by an unnamed visionary in Thunder of Justice as the
	time of the Warning. This visionary thought that the Warning
	would last 3 hours instead of 3 days and would begin rolling
	in at 2 pm EST.

	When I first journaled this I thought it indicated a 1 pm 
	timeframe since on Saturdays, the only day I'm regularly home,
	the mailman comes about 1 pm. However, having advanced notice,
	I WOULD take the day off and be home during a regular day when
	the postman comes between 2 and 3 pm. 

2) I even expressed that it was a *warning* of the 3-days and not
	the actual event.

3) The Lord gave me the area in which I had to prepare and convert by
	not being so 'wrapped up in the material'. The curtain had
	wrapped around me by a strong wind, a whirlwind, which I did not
	mention. 

4) The graphic was an expression of love and care. It also seemed to
	be a spiritual 'grace' or 'opening' from which the visionary
	messages flowed one after another. It was definatly beyond any
	visual capacity I've ever had before to imagine something so
	delicate and brilliant. The colors were 'out of this world'.

5) The mention of St. Jude led me to read Jude in the Bible; it is right 
	before Revelation and it primarily speaks against sexual sin. 
	[This lesson did not apply personally so I understood it
	to be telling me that God is firmly against our current cultural
	sexual practices.]

6) The dream at the end was one in which I recognized my need for
	confession and a more stalwart and active resistance against
	daily temptations to be lax. Again, it was calling me to
	prepare.

Peace of Jesus,

Mary

Visions:		Flood/Water Visions; Psalm 93

Source:			Mary Nelson, 8-MAR-1994

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Friday, March 4, 1994, at night after an evening of Adoration of 
the Blessed Sacrament:

	I had just gone to bed and was in a spontaneous prayer. I received a 
	vision of raging flood waters rolling with a lot of force; the waterway 
	seemed to expand. Then I sensed a rapid water rise. This vision just 
	stayed and stayed.

I prayed one of my rosaries the next day for the people involved and 
for any mitigation possible.

Sunday, March 6, 1994:

During Mass I had a spiritual sense that we the church were not worthy 
to receive Jesus; it was briefly like I could see every soul and I was seeing 
darkness. This made me grieve for my own sins and for those of the church. 
When I received the Eucharist I did not at first sense Jesus and this further 
grieved me but then I was spiritually drawn to His cross and experienced his 
presence and union. After Mass I prayed a while longer and experienced 
His Peace.

At home I was immediately called to lie down and do the Rosary, Sorrowful 
Mysteries. During it I was once again drawn to a union with Jesus on his 
Cross in a reparative spiritual intercessory way. 

	About mid-way through the rosary, I received a vision in color. It 
	was of a river flowing through low landscape; beyond the river was 
	a city and in the lower right foreground there was a domed structure. 
	The river was rising and flooding the lower regions. 

I immediatly thought of Washington DC of the Jefferson Memorial along 
the Potomac River.

After the Rosary I did the prayers for the Morning Office; the first 
reading was Psalm 93:

The Lord is king, with majesty enrobed;
the Lord has robed himself with might,
he has girded himself with power.

The world you made firm, not to be moved;
your throne has stood firm from of old.
From all eternity, O Lord, you are.

The waters have lifted up, O Lord,
the waters have lifted up their voice, 
the waters have lifted up their thunder.

Greater than the roar of mighty waters,
more glorious than the surgings of the sea, 
the Lord is glorious on high.

Truly your decrees are to be trusted.
Holiness is fitting to your house,
O Lord, until the end of time.

Our God is Lord over the mighty waters and their raging is under his 
command. The psalm contains both the raging waters and also the words, 
"Holiness is fitting to your house, O Lord, until the end of time."  Is the 
raging of the waters another sign of our need to repent and become holy 
people in His House? 

I first associated the city with Washington DC, the capital of the United 
States and symbol of our nation's secular power. I saw the waters, a 
symbol of God's power rising there and through the flooding rendering 
powerless the powerful. As God is God of all creation, everything and 
every place is the "house" referred to in the above verse : person, 
church, and nation of people. All must repent of their sins and return 
to the Lord.

Since hearing the February 6 and 13, 1994 messages to the United States 
given by the Blessed Virgin in Conyers, GA to Nancy Fowler, I've had 
an inspiration to write our leaders, particularly President Clinton, 
concerning God's view of abortion. God has sent two messengers in this 
past year : Pope John Paul II in Denver in August 1993 and Mother 
Theresa at a Breakfast meeting in Washington DC. Both spoke against 
abortion in the presence of President Clinton. Now comes the grave 
warning messages from Conyers. God is not going to allow us to continue
 in this sin much longer; our nation must heed God's merciful call for our 
conversion and change of heart and practice.

On Monday, March 7th, I heard the news about all the turmoil in 
Washington D.C. that weekend over the Whitewater matter; Special Counsel
Nessbaum had been forced to resign and there had been a big 
furor over supoenas and the First Lady. I had been only vaguely aware 
of some of these things over the weekend. The 'water' was rising fast 
and the scandal was flooding over the Capitol and nation. It is interesting, 
also, that the Nixon scandal was known by another 'water' : Watergate. 
Floodgates are again open.

Subject:		1996 - persecution

Source:			Mary L. Nelson
			24 Athol St.
			Danielson, CT 06239

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vision received during a night of prayer, September 20, 1993:

The year 1996 came to me very clearly. Then I saw a host above a 
chalice. The host began bleeding into the chalice for a short time. 
Then the chalice was tipped over, as if with violence. The blood 
spilled, staining the top and then the front of the altar linen.


There was definitely a sense of violence to this. I felt it was that 
the Body of Christ, the Church, would be particularly persecuted 
in 1996.

Visions:		Consolations for Christians

Source:			Mary L. Nelson
			24 Athol St.
			Danielson, CT 06239

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cross Vision -- 02/02/93

I saw a vision of a beautiful large cross in the sky; a beautiful white 
light radiated from the cross and there was a multitude of people who 
were seeing it; the words that came to express this was "The cross 
appeared in the sky and the people of God saw it and were exceedingly 
glad."


I have had several visions and dreams that have had this particular 
theme of the 'people of God' and of the Lord consoling His people 
during trials and sufferings. I understood that in the example just given, 
the cross appears during a time of trial and persecution and it is an 
encouragement for the people of God to persevere. It was like to say that 
their trials and their faith was not in vain and somehow it spoke against 
the errors and evil that was being propagated.


Vision during Mass while on retreat, on Sunday, 31-JAN-1993 :

I saw a multitude of people and received the words 'Covenant people of 
God'; I had the sense that these people were not quite at their destination, 
but they were not troubled because they were being shepherded by 
someone they considered trustworthy.

Several days after this vision, I heard the words, "Covenant Community" 
and understood the time frame of September - October. Soon after this, 
the messages given to Cyndi Cain began to concern 'Eucharistic 
Communities' and 'Refuges'.  My spiritual experiences during September 
and October supported the sense of an increased unit with Jesus and with 
His people which will come through the Holy Spirit; it will be very
Eucharistic in nature.


Dreams:

I also have had several dreams of us being prepared for the '3-Days 
Darkness' by the coming of the Holy Spirit. 

In one dream, a small group of people were gathered together in what 
looked like a rather barren warehouse in preparation for the 3-Days. 
We were all calm and rather quiet. A pleasant young man came into the 
room and announced that God was going to give us something special. 
My mind went to mundane things like food, money, etc... The young 
man came back with a glass pitcher filled with clear water and we were 
each given some to drink. When I drank the water I realized that we had 
each received the Holy Spirit.

About a month after receiving this dream I got together with a friend
and we began sharing spiritual experiences. She told me of a dream
she had had which was almost identical to this one. Other people have
also shared similar dreams in which water symbolizes the Holy Spirit.
In these experiences we are brought the water or the water is given to
us.

Peace of Jesus

Although I sometimes have been allowed 'sufferings' and sorrows for 
that which we will face, particularly for the loss of souls and for the
abuses and weaknesses in the Church, I also have a great peace and 
confidence of the Lord's care for us. I don't fear the times ahead and I 
attribute this entirely to God's Peace. 

The time after the tribulation will be glorious and something new with 
our Lord. It will not be heaven, but it will be a time when we will be able 
to see the fruits of the Spirit, fruits of the life with Christ, able to 
flower in an unprecidented way.

 

    Speaking of water...I had a strange dream last night (not in color or
    anything, probably a creation of my overactive subconscious mind  8^) )
    that had water in it in a strange way.
    
    The way I remember it, there was a MASSIVE earthquake, and rather than
    large cracks appearing, peices of the earth were throwing themselves
    into the air (a good ways)...not just chuncks, but hexigonal chunks
    (not precisely, but that was my impression)...many of them. 
    
    I got the impression I was in a shallow cave looking outside...I was
    safe from the wreckage outside, the shaking didn't even knock me over
    (I felt that I was being protected by God..who else, right?).  There
    were several people with me, though I only remember a friend of mine
    specifically (a non-Christian friend).  He was safe, too.
    
    We ventured out after things settled, climbed up to another, smaller
    cave (I think in preperation for more nastiness).  When I climbed up to
    the higher cave, I noticed that between the cracks was water.
    
    After a while we climbed down and went to a strange house (no idea
    who's, I'd never seen it before...though I seemed to know where
    everything was at once I was ther....dreams can really be strange
    sometimes) to get some warmer clothes.  It was nightime (to be honest,
    I think the whole dream was "dark", though we never had trouble seeing
    where we were going).  Anyway, after gathering up clothes from this
    house (which was nearly destroyed, BTW), I decided to go use what's
    left of the restroom...toilet was still there, though there were gaping
    holes in the wall.  Before I got on with my business, a man appeared
    out of thin air across the street, which really freaked me out,
    especially since I KNEW instinctively that he was absolutely evil.  
    
    Anyway, he was a rather handsome man, dressed in a nice stylish suite. 
    Our eyes met and fear went through me.  I knew he was either a demon or
    the devil himself, but I was so scared I couldn't even yell at him to
    go away (though I tried to say as much, in Jesus' name..nothing came
    out but a blurb of noise).  As I was trying to "banish" him (quite
    unsuccessfully), he created a small ball of fire...it just sort of
    popped out of thin air right above his outstretched hand.
    
    I woke up sweating and shaking.  It was a bit...weird, and more than a
    bit unnerving.  It would seem that I not only had to go to the bathroom
    in my dream, but that's the reason I woke up...thank God for those
    early morning wake up calls!  8^)  It wasn't so much the man's
    appearance or even the fireball that unnerved me...it was just the
    sensation of it all, the feeling.  Not rational, to be sure.
    
    I felt like a little boy again turning on all the lights while heading
    to the bathroom...like the boogyman was waiting in the shadows.  8^)
    
    I have not had a dream this unnerving since I was a child (and of
    course, kids are more easily unnerved by dreams).  I kid you not, it
    seemed absolutely real...the last part, anyway.
    
    
    You may now call me childish.  8^)   (to my defense, I snapped out of
    the dream induced psychosis after I was truly awake...though I did get
    chills thinking about the man and his fireball just now).
    
    Maybe I will schedule an appointment with a good psychiatrist...
    
    
    -steve 

    Re: Note 476.62 by CSOA1::LEECH
    
>   Maybe I will schedule an appointment with a good psychiatrist...
    
    Not a good idea.  Evidence suggests that if you are well, and you seek
    such help, you will have a high probability of being unwell by the end
    of the year.  Also, if you are unwell, and you seek such help, you will
    have an even higher probability of being unwell by the end of the year.
    
    But if you are unwell, and you do NOT seek such help, you have a high
    probability of being well by the end of the year.
    
    (Wossname said this.  Thingo.  On the tip of my wossname.  Guy with
    the follicle challenged condition.  Writes books that you find in
    Christian bookshops.  Just can't remember his name write now...  Author
    of "It's Friday, But Sunday's Comin'".)
    
    James

    Wasn't that Tony Campolo ??
    
    Yours suggestingly
    Ben

Hi Hank,

.43�  Has anyone heard about the flesh eating virus which has invaded England?
.43�  rumor has it that its here in America now.

This has hit the headlines over here in the UK over the last 2-3 weeks.
I've lost count, but about 12 people have died from it.  It's a virus
piggy-backing on a common bug, and kills in about 24 hours. 

They've had pictures on the television news of two people who have survived 
it.  Large areas of flesh had to be removed, and the wound kept open until 
they were sure it was all clear.  They then had to have plastic surgery.  
We don't usually get such explicit stuff published.  It looked *bad*.

One woman was cleared to leave hospital as ok (from another cause), but 
died instead from this...

							Andrew

    Speaking of flesh eating viruses, I had this weird dream last night....
    
    8^)

>It's a virus piggy-backing on a common bug, and kills in about 24 hours. 

No virus.  No piggy-back.

It's a virulent strain of the streptococcus bacillum.

It's nothing new; it typically kills about ten people a year.  The brouhaha
is because it got twelve people in a short time period.

/john

� No virus.  No piggy-back.

The way it was portrayed on the television news, it was piggy-backing.  Not
that I take the media as that reliable, but have no other source of
information on this! - unless John proves to be one ;-) 

� It's nothing new; it typically kills about ten people a year.  The brouhaha
� is because it got twelve people in a short time period.
Agreed.  The medical profession is denying rumours that it's an epidemic.  I 
would expect massive numbers if it were, but the scare is because of the 
increase in numbers, their close locality (most are within one county), and 
the speed with which it kills.  It's the UK 'norm' which is vastly 
increased; other European countries have difference levels.  I believe 
Germany has had a lot of cases in one locality over past years, but I can't 
recall the figure./

Interestingly (if that's the right word), the county these cases are
occurring in has had another source of notoriety recently.  A couple has
been arrested for multiple murders over many years, and the police have
excavated the places where the have lived, to find the remains of something
like 12-15 bodies of people they had murdered.

Gloucestershire usually has the image of a quiet rural county - in my 
awareness, anyway.  These change that image.  There's an inevitable mental 
link, whether there's any spiritual or physical connection or not...

							Andrew

re: .62

I think your 'wierd dream' is very interesting. Let me as briefly as possible
relate two of my own of a similar nature and some others and then go thorough
a possible interpertation. These dreams may only be 'personal' but there are
so many common elements....

	******************		*******************
8/93

This happened at night as I began the second of 3 very spiritually powerful
retreats last August:

Vision : I saw a 'Covenant Community of God'; very peaceful, interactive,
	small houses and a beautiful delicate plaza stones in either a 
	hexigonal or octagonal shape; very delicate, beautiful, serene, and
	peaceful.

Harrassment : As the vision faded I experienced a sense of a harrassing
	presence but with prayer it went away quickly.

Nightmare :  I was in this huge ugly concrete building, it was over-build
	with concrete to be secure against everything. Everything was very
	functionally built but there was no grace to it. I wanted to leave
	[perhaps to the community of the Vision?]. I went out onto a 
	concrete plaza which surrounded the building; this plaza was also
	very functional, overbuilt and heavy.

	When I was a ways away from the structure I saw an evil man in
	the distance. He looked like a hardened criminal and he was staring
	at me like I was prey. He started running towards me and out of
	fear I ran back to the concrete building. As I was opening the big
	heavy doors I was crying out, "No, No No!" I awoke at that moment.

Aftermath:  I concluded that the concrete building was something of my
	construction and that the Lord was calling me to the other place
	spiritually, anyways. The Evil man was Satan's means of making
	me fearful of entering into this new community of God in which
	we are nearer to Him and to one another. I prayed to the Lord to
	'bring an earthquake' to the concrete building so I would not have
	the opportunity to rely on it so much. On the third retreat the
	Lord moved in just this way in my life. Actually on the first
	retreat there was also a spiritual experience that foreshadowed
	this. 

----------------------------------------------------------------------

about a month ago:

I had a dream which involved being on a run-down campus with dorms; I
had one roommate but I knew there would be a restructuring and many
more would be joining us. I was in the cafeteria and an evil man was
staring at me, again, as to mean me harm. He came behind me but I
confronted him loudly saying, "What do YOU want!" He turned and went
away. 

Later he was in an automobile and driving at breakneck speed towards me;
there was a white banner with his ingsignia on it and this banner was
evil and filled me with more fear than even the car coming at me. I
was able to get back to my dorm room.

Later a messenger came to my door instructing me to go to a meeting,
but I saw through the deception and understood that it was a trap
and I said "No way!"  This ended the dream. I had a sense upon awaking
that the Lord was pleased because I had rejected evil in a certain way.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

My friend told me her dream over dinner a few weeks ago:

She was in one of the large concrete DEC facilities. People were outside,
probably at lunchtime. The sky got dark and they saw an enormous tornado
in the distance coming at them. It was miles wide at its base. People
wanted to know where to go and my friend looked around and saw a run-down
small wooden building and she said to go there. Most people went into
the DEC concrete building but a few followed her into the shack. The
tornado passed and she and the others in the shack were safe but the
concete building had been wiped off its foundation and was totally
gone.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

I think one common parallel in these dreams is the sense of the 
difference between what God builds, which looks weak and humble and
what man builds which appears to be secure. A disaster comes and it
is only that which is humble and of God that survives and only those
who choose to trust in God and God's ways remain. 

God seems to be actually CALLING us to these 'weaker' structures at
this time. Are we also being told that the moment in which the
destroyer is to come is near? Is Satan now trying to make us hang onto
our old securities through fear?  

The change is difficult; it is hard to choose to be vulnerable and to
forego many of the good things of this world, however I believe that
the Lord is intending to replace our 'sturctures' or 'homes' with something
wonderful. None of these things may occur externally, but might happen
in our own 'interior'. God, of course, is always working within to
sanctify us, but I see these dreams to be a way in which God is trying
to speak to us about a major change which will involve greater trust
in Him. Many of us might be having such dreams as means of coming to
terms with an inner witness to these expected changes.

Comments/notes from your dream:

The contract of cave = rock, natural, humble, created by God
vs. the house = man-made, ravaged by the earthquake, not as secure and
never to be as secure again. The cave is a sure refuge.

After the shaking there is a desire to return to normal but the 'house'
is now open, vulnerable and in ruin. The restoom is a desire for 'relief'
from the situation, turmoil, destruction. Before this relief can come,
evil appears to threaten.

This evil seems to have everything that had been lost [he's nicely dressed
while you search for warmer clothes]. However you know this is evil and
you should not give in; you try to evoke Jesus' name [notice your will is
very strong although physically your weak]; the evil one comes with 
powers and intimidating magic. The dream ends.

There could be an apocraphyal nature to this pattern also. Our old securities
are destroyed and we feel more vulnerable. God still protects us and we have
a heightened sense of danger and evil now. The evil man and his magic could
represent, perhaps, the antichrist appearing on the scene??

Thanks for sharing this; I hope you don't mind the analysis!

Peace of Jesus,

Mary

    I had lunch today with a gentleman who is sales representative for the
    Unigraphics Software division of EDS.  He works out of their Denver
    office.  I have known Don for many years now and we have become good
    friends, mainly because we have a good friend in common, Jesus!

    Anyway, over lunch today he asked, "What do you know about a guy named
    Hinkle and a guy named Griffis?"  I replied, "You mean the June 9th
    thing?"  His eyes lit up.

    It seems that David Griffis spoke at his church recently and then he
    had lunch with David that next week and they discussed all of these
    events.  Don told me that when he left his house this morning he felt
    like he should bring along some tapes and printed material that he got
    from David.  Don gave me the set of tapes and printed material to look
    at and listen to.  Unfortunately I have a midterm tonight so I may not
    get started on them till tomorrow.  I'm looking forward to reading
    this.  As I quickly perused the printed material I saw several bits and
    pieces that I read in previous replies here.  The tapes should be good.

    Ron

    re: .69
    
    I don't mind the interpretation, Mary, actually I was hoping the dream
    had some significance...I'd hate to be that unnerved over a meaningless
    dream created by my daft imagination.  8^)
    
    In any case, when you mentioned the evil one in my dream as possibly
    being the anti-christ coming on the scene, it struck a cord.  The
    overwhelming emotion of fear conveyed to me by the dream was
    irrational, as I did not think he could harm me (God protects me). 
    Even though I knew I was protected, I was still scared and could not
    act.  I was thinking (in my dream...weird that I still remember the
    whole thing quite clearly) that the evil man that popped in on me was
    Satan himself...until he did the magic trick with the fireball (which
    never came towards me).  When I saw this, "antichrist" popped into my
    mind, along with the Biblical prophesy of the antichrist tricking
    multitudes of poeple with magic (and bringing fire down from the sky in
    full view of men).   I forgot to mention the Biblical excerpts popping
    into my mind, as they were not concise passages coming to me word for
    word, but just the general themes of certain parts of prophesy.
    
    [to be fair, I have read several books on prophesy, and have been dwelling
    on different parts of it lately, which may have been cause for the
    dream...who knows?]
    
    Unlike most dreams, I seem to get more out of this one each time I
    contemplate on it.  The *only* other dream I can remember (which was
    close to a year ago, I think), was one that had Jesus in it.
    
    Wonder what the deal is with the hexigonal chunks of
    earth...earthquakes don't do that.  8^)  And where did all the water
    come from?  I distinctly remember hard ground being churned into big
    hexigonal chunks, while the rest turned into some sort of water-filled 
    marsh or something.
    
    Very strange.  Especially since I rarely remember dreams, and the ones
    that I do remember, only stick around for a couple of days in my
    memory, if that.  This one is not going to vanish anytime soon-
    especially since as I discuss it in here, I seem to remember more
    peices of it.
    
    
    -steve (dream-dude...not to be mistaken with "dreamy-dude")  8^)

    Re: Note 476.64 by LARVAE::PRICE_B
    
>   Wasn't that Tony Campolo ??
    
    Yep, that was him.  Tony Wossname.  ;-)

    RE: .70
    
    Ron, I take it that your friend Don thought David Griffis was sincere
    in his faith and ministry and that his witness about the prophecy
    was compelling? Did Don say how his church responded to the talk?
    
    Mary  

In skim mode:

Re:  "God protects me."

Ultimately, this is true for the believer, for we merely pass through this
world.  However, sometimes we may get caught up into think no personal harm
will come to us, and if it does, God has not protected us or we have done
something to offend Him.  To address this issue, I call as witness every
apostle - except John (who I could include because even though He died 
an old man, he certainly suffered for Christ).  Each was martyred,
as were many others.  Wasn't God protecting them?

God protected Daniel from the lions and Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo
from the fire, but their words "...but if He does not save us from the fire,
we will not bow to you" ring loudly as to what our attitude should be when 
facing a time where "protection" doesn't seem apparent.

Completed salvation (saved forever; "finishing the race") will be for those
who endure to the end.

Scary?  Yes, sometimes, for me at least.  I don't think Paul and Silas had
fun being flogged; I don't think for a minute that they enjoyed it.  But
understanding why and for Whom they suffered and believing in a God of Love
who can overcome all circumstances, they praised Him from their jail cell.

What sweeter words will we hear than "Well done, thou good and faithful
servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler 
over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord." 
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Mark

    re: .74
    
    Amen!
    
    You expressed that beautifully. Just as in any disaster and difficulty
    in life both believers and unbelievers suffer. However if we have great
    faith then we are never defeated by suffering in suffering in the same
    way suffering defeated us as unbelievers. As we grow in faith I think
    we have greater vision on our eternal destiny with Christ and therefore
    the world cannot make us suffer any ultimate loss.
    
    However, both in scripture and in many of these private prophecies the 
    Lord seems to say that there will be a measure of supernatural
    protection given to His chosen ones so as to bring a good many through
    the ordeal. This does not mean that there will be no suffering involved
    nor that a good many people will not be called to martyrdom. Of course
    this will happen also. 
    
    When it comes to the kind of satanic harrassments we are not
    invincible, but we cannot be forced or 'taken' against our will and if
    we are believing Christians who live our faith then demons cannot do
    more than harrass us. We have far more assurances of this than we
    do concerning physical protection.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary
    

>                     <<< Note 476.73 by JUPITR::MNELSON >>>
>                               -< interesting! >-

>    Ron, I take it that your friend Don thought David Griffis was sincere
>    in his faith and ministry and that his witness about the prophecy
>    was compelling? Did Don say how his church responded to the talk?
    
    Mary,

    Absolutely!  Don's opinion was that David is no fly-by-night preacher
    and that he is a VERY reliable source regarding this prophecy.  Don
    firmly believes that God is getting ready to do some amazing things.
    Now whether everything comes about on June 9th or that day is just the
    start of these events he (David) does not know.  Regardless, Don is
    preparing and is passing on this information to everyone in his family
    (some of whom are not yet believers) so that they are not caught
    unaware.

    I don't recall if Don mentioned how the church received the prophecy,
    but as it is a charismatic church, and seeing Don's response, I expect
    that it was regarded with much respect and recognition as a true
    prophecy.

    Ron

Don (.52), 

> One note speaks of a warning, with a visual event that all will see, people
> being shown their sins and being urged to repent.  The original note talks
> about the evil in this world being ripped out of the world. . . . Well, what
> is it?  I'm sure the Lord isn't confused.....

Well, what I thought when I saw that both coincided on the same date was that
they could be related if the Lord ripped evil out of the world by illuminating
people's consciences.  One prophecy discusses what specific event is going not
happen (the Day of Conscience); the other tells the result.

If this is the Day of Conscience, I know other Catholic prophets/visionaries
who have said that on this day, a few signs may accompany the Warning:

1) Earthquakes;
2) Three hours of darkness;
3) An image of the Cross in the sky with light shining down from where the
five wounds of Christ are.

The Griffis/Hinkle prophecies seem to indicate earthquakes and other natural
disasters, which would agree with this.  The illumination of conscience might
bring people to repentance, especially on the issue of abortion, for many if
not all would now see how wrong and immoral it is.  Hence the predictions that
abortion would end.  Some people may be so shocked at this revelation that they
die or become incapacitated.  This would match other parts of the G/H prophecy.

So the answer is that they both may happen.

However, personally I sort of wonder whether or not such a warning would turn
the world, at this point, to good: would it really "rip evil out of the world"?
Or would it turn some people all the more rabidly against God?  Do we really
suppose that the good, repentant people will be the leaders of our countries?
Or will the leaders of countries be among those who choose to reject God and
become totally evil instead of repentant?  Frankly I have a hard time imagining
all of Congress repenting and passing all sorts of anti-abortion
legislation. What is happening now seems to be a precursor to a very evil
United States, and while it would be great if we repented, it seems to me to be
unlikely: I think this culture and this world is just too far gone for that to
happen.  But that's my opinion.

Eric

About the virulent strep strain (necrotizing fasciitis):

I have several Clarinet articles on it, but unfortunately I believe Digital
cancelled its subscription to Clarinet so I can't post them.  But I will say
that there have been 13 cases in Britain (a new one popped up a short time
ago), I think about 7 in Iceland, between 25 and 30 in Norway, and, recently, 
two in Canada (a total of 17 in Canada this year if I understand correctly).

Not only that, but there has been discovered a new hantavirus transmitted by
harvest mice: if you remember the hantavirus which killed 42 people in 18
states, mostly in the Southwest, which first puzzled doctors but later was
traced to mouse droppings.  This is a new virus, but doctors don't know yet if
it infects humans.  The virus was found in infected mice from Orange County,
California, by a pathology professor at the University of New Mexico School of
Medicine.

    re: June 9
    
    I think the only way to know whether any of this is of G-d is to judge
    from June 10th.  Any of this is entirely possible; however, it does not
    line up with my own understanding of Scriptures, which indicate (in my
    view) that if anything, things are going to get worse, evil will
    increase, not be "ripped out of the world".
    
    That said, again, the only way to really know is to survey it from the
    10th.
    
    If this is of G-d, we should be grateful He's speaking in such a way. 
    If this is not, those involved in this "prophecy" should never be
    listened to again.
    
    FWIW,
    
    Steve

    re: .79
    
    June 10th will indeed be telling, but we need to have a sense for what
    cannot be seen, the spiritual, also. This 'ripping' may not be manifest
    in a way that will be apparent to all.
    
    Looking at all the prophecies I would say that even the June 9th
    prophecies do not say that no evil will exist after that one date. In
    fact most seem to indicate that we are entering in on a time of great
    turmoil which will be THE great spiritual battle between good and evil.
    
    A lot of time and events can be compressed into a few lines of both
    prophecy and scripture and we should avoid the temptation to consider
    that everything will wind up in a timeperiod no longer than a TV
    mini-series! 
    
    What I see from the larger body of prophecies is that 1) God's people
    will be purified further and united in common cause in a spiritual war
    against Satan and his workers of evil; we will receive the gifts of the
    Holy Spirit to empower us to this end. 2) Satan, knowing his time is
    now REALLY short will begin raging stronger and bolder. Eventually he
    will bring forth the antichrist as his 'ace in the hole' and Christians
    will face the worst persecutions. People will have to choose one side
    or the other and many people will be very frightened because they will
    find themselves so unprepared spiritually.
    
    This is NOT going to happen in one day. Just as with every person who
    has read the June 9th prophecies, I will be praying about it and
    looking for evidence that either supports or denies it. 
    
    Mary

    Perhaps, if the speakers are right about June 9, this represents what
    is promised in the Bible...separating the wheat from the chaff.  There
    are many folks on the fence, so to speak, and these people have to
    decide for themselves which direction they will go.  There will only be
    two choices to make...there will be no more middle ground.
    
    (of course, from our view, those that are not saved are on the "other
    side", though this may be due to ignorance and societal brainwashing
    more than a direct denounciation of God)
    
    Sooner or later, people will have to *consciously* make their choice-
    either to follow Jesus or to follow the world.  I think that if the
    June 9 prophesies come to light, then God is giving those who are
    confused a good opportunity to change their stubborness into acceptance
    of His son.  
    
    The separating process has already begun, IMO, but I think that in the
    last days, it will be accellerated by some event(s, and people will
    have a chance to rethink their previous stands on spiritual matters.
    
    IMO, of course.  I always like to speculate and put things
    together...doesn't mean I do this correctly.  8^)
    
    
    -steve

    Some folks are definitely going overboard with this.  Saturday night on
    TBN, E.W. Shambach told Paul Crouch that we are currently in the
    tribulation and that all the evil people will be snatched away on June
    9th.  Of course the TBN hosts jump on every bandwagon that people spout
    off on their show.
    
    How conveniently they forget about the rapture, the angels proclaiming
    the gospel from heaven, the 2 witnesses, and a host of other
    tribulation events.
    
    Mike

 Shambach!  I've been trying to remember that name for a while..




 Jim

    All the evil people will be snatched away on June 9??  Where do they
    get these ideas?  We may indeed be in the *very* beginning of the
    tribulation...though I'm not quite sure how you put a start date on
    this, unless there were some major Biblical event.  
    
    Actually, I don't think we're in it yet.  Perhaps if something big does
    happen on June 9, it will mark the beginning of the trib.  
    
    More idle speculation on my part.
    
    -steve

    In a sense the tribulation began when the Church began because God's
    people are all refined like gold in the fire of the trials of this 
    world. Certainly the Church has endured through numerous and horrific
    attacks in the past. These could be considered the begining of the 
    birth pangs. The 20th Century certainly has demonstrated a deepening
    and increased frequency of these pangs with brief lulls where the
    people have said, "peace and security" only to be hit with another
    pang.
    
    Some of our brothers and sisters will be very very literal and perhaps
    too physical in their expectations surrounding this date and events.
    I beleive that we should use these days to turn all expectations that
    we might have over to the Lord to be replaced by His Spirit by which
    we might discern *spirituall* what is underway. Personally, I think we
    will all bear good fruit from this just through our increased
    meditations and prayers during this time. 
    
    Peace,
    
    Mary

I had the following three visions during a prayer time a week ago. I entered 
into a deeper state and the following visions and understandings were given.

First Vision:

	I saw in the sky a darkness that was coming towards us; it was
	triangular like a wedge of pizza. The small end was nearer than the 
	wider end and it was all darkness. Despite the fact that it was
	darkness, it did not fill the entire sky so it was a limited darkness
	although as it passed it would be very dark.

Second Vision:

	The CNN stories about the comet's impact on Jupiter had just been on
	TV a few days earlier. Now I was seeing the same graphic image that
	CNN used, but the comet segments were in motion being drawn to the
	planet. There was a great and grand certainty and majesty to this
	process and I was given an understanding from God. God said that it
	will be like this with Him. He is analogous to Jupiter and we are like
	the Comet segments. God will draw us to Him as certainly as the gravity
	of Jupiter will draw the comet parts. We will also be drawn to Him
	in a sequence; those who are nearest to Him get drawn in first and
	then, just as inevitably, those who are further away.

Third Vision:

	I saw a plastic crucifix but I understood immediatly that it was
	not genuine; it was an abomination and hideous deception. Instead of
	Jesus Crucified there was a short plastic figure of a man with arms
	outsreached and help upward similar to some of the Risen Lord 
	crosses but yet different. I do not believe I saw any nailmarks.
	I understood at the time that this was a deception that would be
	offered - Christ without the Cross.

The above is what I received at the time of seeing the visions. I have 
prayed and meditated about this and I see further interpretations.

First of all, I think it gives a sequence of events, at least spiritual events.
There will first be a time of darkness but it will pass like a storm passes.
Also we will know that it is not an all-encompasing darkness. 

After that we will be drawn to God with a certain inevitability and majesty
which will speak of the glory of God. 

The third vision I saw as a depiction of the evil church of the antichrist.
It is likely to deny the Cross of Christ or our need to take up our own
cross and follow Him. I had dream a week or two prior to this vision that
was also pointing to the existance of such a church. 

Peace of Jesus,

Mary

    At last Thursday night's Prayer Cenacle [a few days after I had received 
the three visions] one of the women who rarely says much told of an unusual
incident that had happened during the week. It had been rather stormy that 
week. A friend of hers went outside during a break in the weather at 
lunchtime with a few of her friends. 
    
    This woman saw a dark shape move across the sky; she associated it with 
a 'vacuum cleaner' with a kind of funnel nozzle at one end and sort of 
drooping towards earth. Apparently this thing was also very dark. She 
pointed it out to her friends who also thought it was extremely strange.
    
    Mary

re .87

That's what a tornado looks like; they don't always touch down.

    re: .88
    
    That's what I thought it probably was. I've never seen one myself.
    The storm weather we had did not seem to have the kind of winds
    associated with tornado weather and this incident happened during
    general calm. Nevertheless, many of the visions and dreams mention
    tornados, funnel clouds, etc... and scripture says that people will
    be alarmed at the crashing of the waves and at the storms that come...
    

    Did it make any noise?  I once saw a tornado, in funnel cloud form, go
    over my house, and it made lots of noise!
    
    Tornadoes often occur during a "calm" in the storm...typically, it will
    stop raining and the wind will die down before it hits, though not
    always.
    
    -steve

    Like I said, there are bandwagoners who are adding their own little
    twists to the June 9th prophecy.  It's not only dangerous, but also
    laughable.  To believe we're in the Great Tribulation, and ignore all
    the prerequisites is blatantly unscriptural.  I don't see how anyone
    can take anyone seriously who thinks we're in the tribulation.
    
    Mike

RE:            <<< Note 476.91 by FRETZ::HEISER "ugadanodawonumadja" >>>
                             -< be careful people >-

   > Like I said, there are bandwagoners who are adding their own little
   > twists to the June 9th prophecy.  It's not only dangerous, but also
    
     My friend Ron was telling me he heard a preacher who broadcasts
     on short wave say that the US will be attacked by Russia on June
     9th and that Robert Dole will be the final US President.



   Jim

Hi folks ....

    I've tried again to catch up on this note, which is of some importance!
    I have only skimmed later replies, but want to make my input 'so far',
    for what it's worth!.

.1, Eric� 
    The 6th seal of Revelation is preceded by the first 5 seals, which
    include wide-scale devastation (eg :8, with � of the earth's inhabitants
    perishing).

.5, .6, Kent, MarkM�
    The effect of a warning is not necessarily for those hearing it to repent
    en masse, though there are those (I would hope!) who would respond
    positively to the LORD.  Rather it is to face them with their own guilt,
    so that on the day of judgement, they can see that God fulfilled His
    part in loving warning.  Ezekiel was told to preach, even though the
    people's hearts were hardened not to receive the word of the LORD, but
    their blood would then not be upon his head (Ezekiel 2:17-21).  This is
    also reflected in .32 (Mary).
    
.8, PDM�
    The 'sign' indicated is not for those who are looking for signs; it is
    directed towards those whose eyes are still turned away from God, and
    towards unrighteousness.  They do *not* want any signs!  I see from .33 
    (Mary) that this is also directed at Christians who are not living as
    Christians.

    ...judgement starts with the household of God.

    Incidentally, this seems to focus specifically upon America.  In
    .35 onwards, there are several pointers in this direction.  This also
    says 'by 1995', rather than naming June 8th 1994.  This is besides the
    effect impacting the world, as mentioned in an earlier note (.28)

1 Corinthians 14:29 - 
	"Two or three prophets should speak, and the others should weigh 
	 carefullly what is said"
ie, under the new covenant, with the indwelling Holy Spirit, the word through
    the prophets must be tested by those who have discernment.  Not because
    God is limited, but because He trusts us with His word to a greater
    degree than under the First Covenant.  There are 'learning' phases a
    prophet goes through, and the word delivered must be tested against
    scripture, etc, as it may be diluted with the prophet's own personality
    in places.  It is the responsibility of all to submit each portion of the
    word to the Holy Spirit in their own hearts.

    As for testing the words given; the call to repentance rings true.  The
    decadence of the 'civilised' world is only covered up by the steepness of
    the slope of depravity we're on, and by the move in both public opinion
    and law, to follow this slide.  So far, God has left it in man's hands to
    repent from the Word of God, the witness of His glory in creation, and
    the conscience He has given us.  These are largely denied, and at some
    point we hit against the Stop sign.  The words of prophecy hold up this
    sign.  The test of whether they are ultimately true and from the LORD or
    not comes later....  I would not pin it to an absolute date (even though
    one if explicitly given), because God's mercy is great, and His testing
    seem, in my experience, to take us just beyond what we would set as our
    'time limit', to give us that extra mile (to mix meta...).  Also, His
    view is from the eternal and spiritual, while ours is from the temporal
    and physical.  We need to ask for eyes that see, as well as hearts that
    obey.

Meanwhile ...  Amos 3:7, 8b
	"Surely the Sovereign LORD does nothing without revealing His plan
	 to His servants the prophets."
	"The Sovereign LORD has spoken - who can but prophesy?"

    As far as he fulfillment of apocalyptic scripture is concerned, the sort
    of thing mentioned could foreshadow the events mentioned in Revelation,
    but other passages seem to me to indicate a different overall precursor
    to the ultimate fulfillments (as Mike Heiser mentioned).  Matthew 24, for
    instance, gives an explicit progression of world events and attitudes
    leading up to the LORD's return, which 

	�v7  World wars.
	�v9  Persecution, opposition on an international and murderous scale.
	�v10 Betrayal, apostacy, spiritual coldness.
	�v11-12 False prophets [another reason to test prophecies carefully!!!].
	�v14 The gospel preached to the whole world.
	�v15-21 Specific events, against God and His people focussed on
		Jerusalem, corresponding to other scriptures.
	�v30-31 The return of the LORD Jesus, to the intense distress of the
		majority, who have rejected Him.

    This last point, where Jesus' return is to a world deep in sin, is
    reflected in various places, eg 2 Thessalonians 2:8, Daniel 7:25-27,
    Revelation 19:19-21.

    I see the burden of the message as a perfectly possible precursor to
    the fulfillments of Matthew 24 etc, but limited, in that it is apparently
    concentrating on one nation, rather than on the world as a whole.
    I would certainly not see them as the final fulfillment of events in
    Revelation 6.

    I await the results with ... more than just 'interest', because this
    touches on the God Who is my eternity, and His dealings with mankind.  I
    just want to hold His hand very closely, and look into His eyes, that I
    might consistently walk faithfully.

					God bless
							Andrew

	North Korea comes to mind as a possible June 9th start......


Glen

    I think it's too soon for NK to do anything major, though I firmly
    believe that they already have nukes available to them.  
    
    But, you never know.  We'll have to wait and see if anything does
    happen.  NK and China will play certain roles in the future, as will
    Russia, but that is still a ways away, IMO.
    
    -steve
    
    
    [I think those who say that Russia will launch an attack on the US on
    June 9 are off their rocker, personally...they don't want this country,
    they want the oil in the Middle East- which is why they supply Iraq
    with arms.  They have been plotting the take-over of the oil nations
    for some time now.  They know that at this time, the US cannot sustain
    a war half-way across the world; if they mobilized a direct assault
    there, we are very limited as to what we could do in response.  They
    are taking our relief money and are biding their time...they will not
    sit idle for too much longer, though.]
    
    More idle speculation...   8^)
    
    
    -steve

>    [I think those who say that Russia will launch an attack on the US on
>    June 9 are off their rocker, personally...they don't want this country,

Some people not too long ago thought an attack on Kuwait was an attack on
or at the US.  Not so far off the rocker.  It is also interesting that
the Middle East is in the direction of Armageddon.  Israel, a priciple ally
of the US, will have to be subjected in any take-over of the Middle East oil
fields.  It might be World War III but it won't be much of a war if 
Blitzkrieg (lightning war) is successful in taking over the middle east.
Of course, the nations will gather and the blood will flow as high as 
a horse's bridle.

I'm not much of an escatalogical buff; if it happens, it happens.  It will 
happen, but when has not been much of a concern of mine.  But this may pique
my curiosity for some extra study.

MM

Revelation 14:20  And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood
came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a
thousand and six hundred furlongs.
 

Revelation 16:16  And he gathered them together into a place called in the
Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
 17  And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a
great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
 18  And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a
great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an
earthquake, and so great.
 19  And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the
nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto
her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
 20  And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
 21  And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about
the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the
hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

    Actually, I was referring to a direct assault on the US via nuclear
    strike.  This would cause a retalitory strike on them.  
    
    Though I would not put such a thing beyond possibility, it will not be
    the first thing they do.  Currently, due to the depleted US ranks
    (military spending cuts) in the mid-east, and the lack of a strong ally
    presense there, Russia could very well Blitzkreig (sp?) their way to
    Isreal, if they wanted to.  They have allies in Iraq and land access to
    do this.  They have the numbers and technology to do this, and there is
    nothing the west could do to stop it outside a nuclear strike (though
    by the time one could be ordered, Russia would be too close to allied
    territory to risk it...perhaps Isreal would use tactical nukes?).
    
    More idle speculation.  8^)
    
    I don't think that a first strike on the US is in the cards (or
    scripture  8^) ), though I'm not saying that Russia or some other
    anti-american country would not launch a few nukes in our direction
    down the road a ways, after the initial movements are under way (they
    don't want a retalitory strike before they can get into position).
    
    On another note, newsblurb has it that due to a slick treaty (or
    somesuch agreement), Russia is no longer pointing ICBM's in our
    direction...or won't be after they finish taking these things off line
    (or re-directing them).
    
    Peace, peace...  kinda scary. 
    
    -steve 

RE:      <<< Note 476.96 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>


>I'm not much of an escatalogical buff; if it happens, it happens.  It will 
>happen, but when has not been much of a concern of mine.  But this may pique
>my curiosity for some extra study.


 This is the way I feel.  If it happens, it happens. The job for us is not
 to speculate and argue over these matters..our job is to make sure our friends
 and families know that God is in control and one day the trumpet is going to
 blow, and they need to come to Christ.  Yes it's interesting and good fodder
 for discussion.  But we need to keep our focus on the mission.



 Jim

 Please note my comment in .92 with regard to Russia, was in reply to
 Mike's note regarding how folks are jumping on this bandwagon and the more
 that jump on, the more outlandish the predictions.




 Jim

 June 1st Snarf!

    Ezekiel 38-39: Russia will invade the Middle East, not the U.S.

    Ezekiel 38-39: Russia will invade the Middle East, not the U.S.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------Ezekiel 38:1  And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Ezekiel 38:1  And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
  2  Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief
prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
  3  And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the
chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
  4  And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring
thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with
all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of
them handling swords:
  5  Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and
helmet:
  6  Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters,
and all his bands: and many people with thee.
  7  Be thou prepared, and prepare for thyself, thou, and all thy company
that are assembled unto thee, and be thou a guard unto them.
  8  After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt
come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of
many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste:
but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of
them.
  9  Thou shalt ascend and come like a storm, thou shalt be like a cloud to
cover the land, thou, and all thy bands, and many people with thee.
 10  Thus saith the Lord GOD; It shall also come to pass, that at the same
time shall things come into thy mind, and thou shalt think an evil thought:
 11  And thou shalt say, I will go up to the land of unwalled villages; I
will go to them that are at rest, that dwell safely, all of them dwelling
without walls, and having neither bars nor gates,
 12  To take a spoil, and to take a prey; to turn thine hand upon the
desolate places that are now inhabited, and upon the people that are gathered
out of the nations, which have gotten cattle and goods, that dwell in the
midst of the land.
 13  Sheba, and Dedan, and the merchants of Tarshish, with all the young
lions thereof, shall say unto thee, Art thou come to take a spoil? hast thou
gathered thy company to take a prey? to carry away silver and gold, to take
away cattle and goods, to take a great spoil?
 14  Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord
GOD; In that day when my people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know
it?
 15  And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and
many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a
mighty army:
 16  And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover
the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my
land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog,
before their eyes.
 17  Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time
by my servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many
years that I would bring thee against them?
 18  And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against
the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
 19  For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in
that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
 20  So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the
beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and
all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence,
and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and
every wall shall fall to the ground.
 21  And I will call for a sword against him throughout all my mountains,
saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
 22  And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will
rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him,
an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
 23  Thus will I magnify myself, and sanctify myself; and I will be known in
the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.

Ezekiel 39:1  Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus
saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of
Meshech and Tubal:
  2  And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and
will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the
mountains of Israel:
  3  And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine
arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
  4  Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands,
and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of
every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
  5  Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the
Lord GOD.
  6  And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in
the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.
  7  So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and
I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know
that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
  8  Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day
whereof I have spoken.
  9  And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall
set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows
and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them
with fire seven years:
 10  So that they shall take no wood out of the field, neither cut down any
out of the forests; for they shall burn the weapons with fire: and they shall
spoil those that spoiled them, and rob those that robbed them, saith the Lord
GOD.
 11  And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will give unto Gog a place
there of graves in Israel, the valley of the passengers on the east of the
sea: and it shall stop the noses of the passengers: and there shall they bury
Gog and all his multitude: and they shall call it The valley of Hamongog.
 12  And seven months shall the house of Israel be burying of them, that they
may cleanse the land.
 13  Yea, all the people of the land shall bury them; and it shall be to them
a renown the day that I shall be glorified, saith the Lord GOD.
 14  And they shall sever out men of continual employment, passing through
the land to bury with the passengers those that remain upon the face of the
earth, to cleanse it: after the end of seven months shall they search.
 15  And the passengers that pass through the land, when any seeth a man's
bone, then shall he set up a sign by it, till the buriers have buried it in
the valley of Hamongog.
 16  And also the name of the city shall be Hamonah. Thus shall they cleanse
the land.
 17  And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every
feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and
come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for
you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat
flesh, and drink blood.
 18  Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes
of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them
fatlings of Bashan.
 19  And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be
drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
 20  Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with
mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
 21  And I will set my glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see
my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid upon them.
 22  So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that
day and forward.
 23  And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity
for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my
face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all
by the sword.
 24  According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions
have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
 25  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity
of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous
for my holy name;
 26  After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby
they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and
none made them afraid.
 27  When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of
their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
 28  Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to
be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their
own land, and have left none of them any more there.
 29  Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my
spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Subject:	Please listen, America!

Source:	Mary L. Nelson, received October 3, 1993.
                  [email protected]
                  [email protected]

-------------------------------------------------

During an nighttime of intense prayer on October 3, 1993, the 
Lord 'spoke' to me with a message which He intended me to 
post. It is paraphrased by me in my spiritual diary in this way:


God the Father was very angry with America because we were 
being blind and only pretending to convert. We are thinking 
that we can "scam" God into accepting a false, surface 
conversion. He is angry because we are making gods of 
ourselves and justifying our injustices.

I got the impression that, for our sake, the sake of our eternal 
souls, God was not going to tolerate this much longer. When 
and if He acts it will be in His Justice, but it will be His Mercy 
because it will remove our blinders -- saving souls that would 
otherwise be lost. 

--  God wants me to communicate this.


Further comments:

God the Father was angry, but not angry at us in a hostile way, 
but angry in the way a parent gets angry at a child they deeply 
love who is repeatedly doing something that will hurt 
themselves. It is an anger which comes from love and the 
frustration of not getting through in the time of an emergency. 

I have also received in prayer over and over that these are 
grave times; there is a need to get our spiritual selves in shape 
through constant focus on God in the center of our lives.

This MUST be understood as God's love for us! It is a grace 
so that we can persevere if we heed His counsel to prepare.

    This should actually be a reply to the "Beware of false prophets" topic
    but since it relates to this one I'll put it in here.  I think this may
    have been clarified in this topic but I want to be sure.

    One of the features of this prophecy is that God is going to "rip evil
    out of the world".  My friend Don, in his conversation with David
    Griffis, asked him to explain what that meant.  David stated that he
    does not believe that God is going to remove evil from the world. He
    believes what is meant is that God is going to expose all evil for what
    it is.  In other words, it is as if there is a veil or a filter over
    the eyes of this world such that sin is not seen as sin.  God is going
    to remove this filter such that everyone will recognize sin as it is.

    Ron

    That is a good clarification.  Makes a lot more sense that the image
    that "rip evil out of the world" brings to mind.
    
    -steve

See note 492.8 about pertinent scripture about "signs."

>     David stated that he
>     does not believe that God is going to remove evil from the world. He
>     believes what is meant is that God is going to expose all evil for what
>     it is.  In other words, it is as if there is a veil or a filter over
>     the eyes of this world such that sin is not seen as sin.  God is going
>     to remove this filter such that everyone will recognize sin as it is.

This matches very well with the Catholic prophecy of the Day of Conscience
occurring on June 9th.  They Day of Conscience, which I've talked about in
earlier notes, is a common theme among various prophecies which refers to a day
when every person on earth will see where they stand in the light of God's
justice: a Last Judgment in miniature.

So this is even more confirmation that both David Griffis and these Catholic
prophecies are really speaking of the exact same event, and support one 
another.

Thanks for the note,

Eric

    Isaiah 25:7  
    
    "On this mountain he will destroy the shroud that enfolds all
    peoples, the sheet that covers all nations;"
    
    I'm not sure of the contexual place for this portion of prophesy, but
    it struck a chord with me.  The semi-colon separates it from the next
    sentence, similar to the prophesy that Jesus preaches to a crowd when
    he reads half of an old testament verse and says "today, this prophesy
    is fulfilled".
    
    This may have nothing to do with the June 9 prophesy, but I thought the
    similarities made it worth posting.
    
    -steve

Here is a summary of recent discussion of June 9th on Protehy as posted
through the CONYERS Internet list.

From:	US4RMC::"[email protected]" "Conyers, GA Apparition List"  
4-JUN-1994

From a video tape of a talk by Denise Morgan Estrada:

  ..."You used the word devastation...could you elaborate."

  "Okay...Through my messages Jesus and the Blessed Mother
revealed to me that Our Heavenly Father is bringing a
purification, that's actually a dual purification. We will
be purified in our spirits and also He will purify the
world, and that the beginning of this in a...global type
way...or in a resounding way will be a tremendous earthquake
that will rock California..."

QUEEN OF THE AMERICA'S TRUST
DENISE MORGAN ESTRADA
AND FR. MATTHEW PERAINO
SAINT FRANCIS DI PAOLA CATHOLIC CHURCH
JANUARY 24, 1993 - SAN ANTONIO, TX
FR. KRZYSZTOFF (KRIS) BAUTA - PASTOR


Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      CATHOLIC ROMAN
Subject:    CONYERS, GA

To:                ALL                   Date:    05/26
From:   UDPD03B    PAMELA PRESSGROVE     Time:    11:09 PM

Dear Marian Friends,
     Last Sat. My husband, Stan & I went to Louisville to
hear Michael Brown, author of"Final Hour, Prayer Warrior",
etc. He sat right in front of us when he wasn't speaking. I
got to tell him about Prodigy & the great subject he surely
would be interested in. He had not heard of it but was very
interested. I wrote down all of the info he needed & asked
to join us. I had always thought how great it would to have
him on our board although we already have some great
writers. Anyways, he was a great speaker. He is writing a
new book about "Angels" but not just the good angels but
also it will include the bad angels. He said it was
important that we keep things in the proper balance.
Prayer,Mass, & fasting are so important. He said upfront
that he would not respond to any question as to whether he
thought an apparition site was true or false. He was not an
official on this & did not want to cause any division by
stating his opinion, which I thought was very wise of him to
say.  He did mention June 9th in that he had heard it might
be a day when God would wipe evil from the world. (not an
exact quote). He said not to tell anyone he said that. He
laughed and said he would make sure he wasn't in CA that
day.  He seemed anxious to get home to his wife who is
expecting their first baby in Aug. I think. They were
married last year. Anyways, please pray for him. Hope he
will join us.
Thanks for all the wonderful posts. Thank God for all of
you.  Trusting in His Mercy with Mary's help, Pamela

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      CATHOLIC ROMAN
Subject:    JUNE 9TH?

To:                ALL                   Date:    06/02
From:   BCJN34A    M MC ALLISTER         Time:     6:56 PM

This date keeps coming up on various BB as a possible 1st

warning date. Just maybe if we gather evidence from several
different sources, we can come up with a clearer picture as
to its' importance. MAYBE!!!

Fact 1) Maria Esperanza (visionary from Betania) has stated
        that GODS' justice will began to be felt in the
        middle of 1994. (May,June,July,August)
Fact 2) Sandy (visionary from Kentucky) has stated that a
        sign will be given to the world in the spring of
        1994. (April,May,June)

Fact 3) A minister in California (I misplaced his name) has
        said that he had a vision of a ripping away of sin
        to occur on June 9th of this year.
Fact 4) May 12th,1994 (NOT) or April 13th,1995 have been

        thought to be the day of the Garabanbal Miracle. If
        April 13th is correct then a warning will come
within
        one before this date.
Fact 5) June 9th is the feast day of St. Ephraem who was
        was responsible for the propagation of the
Immaculate
        Conception of Mary dogma and a teacher on the Last
        judgement.
Fact 6) Another visionary in California says that the
        "Illumination" is close at hand. The Illumination is
        the revelation of ones' own sins.
Fact 7) Marys' appearances are winding down. (Ex. Conyers)


        Just Maybe Folks?

                            Michael McAllister
                               +JMJ+


===============   Reply    1 of Note    1 =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      CATHOLIC ROMAN
Subject:    JUNE 9TH?

To:     BCJN34A    M MC ALLISTER         Date:    06/02
From:   EBJN73A    EDWARD FITZPATRICK    Time:    11:02 PM

Thank you for this information.

I have read that the warning is expected to be a great gift
from God -- supposedly people will see in an instant the
state of their souls before God.  God is infinite Mercy and
infinite Justice!
Peace!  Ed

PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service            06/03
    1:39 AM

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      CATHOLIC ROMAN
Subject:    CONYERS, GA

To:                ALL                   Date:    06/03
From:   MKST21A    JOYCE LANG            Time:    11:21 PM

Tonight I was channel surfing and surfed back and forth to
the 700 club and happen to catch Ben Haden talking about
June 9th.Pat Robertson was not there.Apparently Pat
Robertson had talked about June 9th on an earlier show(what
he said I do not know) and asked if anyone not by reading
about it or gossip but by word of knowledge or in dream etc
have had messages about June 9th to let them know.apparently
their phone and fax machines rang off the hook from various
people known and unknown to them saying they have received
messages about June 9th supernaturally including some
members of the staff.Ben Haden gave the usual disclaimer
that they neither endorsed or condemn these messages.They
did not say what these messages say just that something was
going to happen June 9th.I do not know if they are the same
messages as the Rev.Hinkel or not.As anyone else heard
anything. Joyce


===============   Reply    1 of Note   12 =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      CATHOLIC ROMAN
Subject:    CONYERS, GA

To:     MKST21A    JOYCE LANG            Date:    06/03
From:   MKST21A    JOYCE LANG            Time:    11:55 PM

I have backdated and check out a few other religions and
topics on both boards.Yes they are talking about June 9th
and the usual bashers ridiculing.Apparently Trinity
Broadcasting and the ministers on that network have been
discussing it too. You know you also have to wonder if the
Evil One isn't setting people up so if nothing happens they
can have further laughs.also one person said even if Jesus
 appeared in the sky she would wonder because Satan can do
great deceptions also.she also said who knows how far
advance holograms might be and it could be evil forces
trying to deceive.I don't know,all I know is if Jesus on the
Cross does appear and everyone see their sins and many,many
people repent and start praying and leading better lives and
just try to follow 10 commandments I still don't see how
this could benefit satan. Joyce


===============   Reply    2 of Note   12 =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      CATHOLIC ROMAN
Subject:    CONYERS, GA

To:     MKST21A    JOYCE LANG            Date:    06/04
From:   MDKW51B    PATRICIA KISSINGER    Time:     7:10 AM

Joyce,  Didn't Our Lady tell the Medjugorje visionaries that
there would be three warnings prior to the great miracle?  I
thought all of the visionaries were to receive all 10
secrets before ant of them were to happen.  I don't know if
I read this or just assumed it.
However, I had a dream just yesterday about a warning.  I
hope people don't think this is odd because its true.  The
dream started with a very clear day. Sometime in the
afternoon the sky started to change slightly.  A cross was
appearing in the sky but it was not a vision of the
crucifixion. There was the shape of the cross in the sky and
inside the image it was like looking at a movie screen. You
could see different things inside the cross.  The thing I
remember most is a vision of lots of babies.  I don't
remember much else except that if you were inside you COULD
NOT see the image.  I am not expecting anything but I am
prepared for anything.     May Christ's Peace be with you
                                    Pattee

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      CATHOLIC ROMAN
Subject:    MEDJUGORJE MNTHY MSG

To:                ALL                   Date:    05/25
From:   SNGH12A    JEROME SUTTER         Time:     4:14 PM

                MESSAGE FROM OUR BLESSED MOTHER

                         May 25, 1994

"Dear Children,

     "I invite you all to have more trust in me.  And to
live my messages more deeply.  I am with you, and I
intercede before God for you.  But also, I wait for your
hearts to open up to my messages.  Rejoice!  Because God
loves you, and gives you the possibility to convert
everyday.  And to believe more in God, the Creator.  Thank
you for having responded to my call."

                                       Jerry


===============   Reply    1 of Note    1 =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      CATHOLIC ROMAN
Subject:    MEDJUGORJE MNTHY MSG

To:     SNGH12A    JEROME SUTTER         Date:    06/03
From:   HCRB73A    ROBERT WILSON         Time:    10:11 AM

I heard a rumor type message (from MEDJUGORGE) that
something big will happen June 6..if true, be advised that
people should have extra water stashed away...also heard
that July 16 a METORITE will hit Gulf of Mexico causing a
huge earthquake that could affect the Texas area.. have you
or anyone else heard these rumors?


===============   Reply    2 of Note    1 =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      CATHOLIC ROMAN
Subject:    MEDJUGORJE MNTHY MSG

To:     HCRB73A    ROBERT WILSON         Date:    06/04
From:   HCRB73A    ROBERT WILSON         Time:     8:52 AM

correction..June 9 something big will happen..I assume a
catastrophe..visionarries were called back to Medjugorje..
has anyone else heard similar rumor ?
PRODIGY(R) interactive personal service            06/04
2:23 PM  Number of notes exported:     8

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Board:  GOD OF THE BOOK BB   ^^^^^^^^^^^^
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^   Topic:  BIBLE                ^^^^^^^^^^^^

===============   Note     1              =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      BIBLE
Subject:    JUNE 9TH NEXT THURS

To:                ALL                   Date:    06/03
From:   UNBM55A    JAMES WOODALL         Time:     6:41 PM

What is all the discussion of next Thursday, June 9th.  I
have heard this date mentioned by three different sources
just this past week--a Christian charismatic, a surviving
Branch Davidian, and a Southern Baptist--all expecting
different things.  Anyone know the source of all this?
James Tabor


===============   Reply    1 of Note    1 =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      BIBLE
Subject:    JUNE 9TH NEXT THURS

To:     UNBM55A    JAMES WOODALL         Date:    06/03
From:   NAHE27A    CARMELLA MOYERS       Time:     7:42 PM

Hi James,
   This vision came from a preacher in CA, as to what
exactly is to happen, I do not know, but I can say this, If
things don't improve real quick with n. Korea, it could very
well be a nuclear war.  But, we must remember that the bible
say's we will not no the day.  So, I'm not sure.
         God Bless,     -Carmella-


===============   Reply    2 of Note    1 =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      BIBLE
Subject:    JUNE 9TH NEXT THURS

To:     NAHE27A    CARMELLA MOYERS       Date:    06/03
From:   UNBM55A    JAMES WOODALL         Time:     9:07 PM

Just for the record:
The Christian charismatic spoke of a kind of invisible
"pre-coming" of Jesus, not the Rapture idea, but an
outpouring of the Holy Spirit in which God will "rip the
evil out of the world."
The Branch Davidian said she had heard from confidential
police department reports in Texas and California that the
authorities were expecting major civil disturbances on that
day, hardly any outpouring of any Holy Spirit.
The Southern Baptist said that this would be the day of the
Rapture.  Back to October, 1988 I thought.  Anyway...what
most intrigued me about all of this is that three separate
and unconnected sources all came up with the same date, but
with completely different ideas about what would happen on
this day.


===============   Reply    3 of Note    1 =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      BIBLE
Subject:    JUNE 9TH NEXT THURS

To:     UNBM55A    JAMES WOODALL         Date:    06/03
From:   FCKF43A    MICHAEL PERDUE        Time:     9:38 PM

It was also mentioned on Pat Robertson last night. I have
seen three different Prophetic writings on this issue. the
just of it seems to be some event that will shake the
foundation of the world. I have read a major earthquake,
financial collapse, some major event that will get people to
turn to there knees, to make the world know that judgement
is at hand. It should be interesting!!!     MIKE


===============   Reply    4 of Note    1 =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      BIBLE
Subject:    JUNE 9TH NEXT THURS

To:     FCKF43A    MICHAEL PERDUE        Date:    06/04
From:   RSXR83A    VINCENT LA BASH       Time:    12:55 PM

Suppose nothing out of the ordinary happens on June 9th.
Then what?  I'm not trying to start a controversy, just
asking.


===============   Reply    5 of Note    1 =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      BIBLE
Subject:    JUNE 9TH NEXT THURS

To:     RSXR83A    VINCENT LA BASH       Date:    06/04
From:   UNBM55A    JAMES WOODALL         Time:     1:37 PM

Then it will turn out to be just like the 1988 Rapture
hysteria, that swept certain fundamentalist churches, or all
the other dates in history.  Actually, I was more interested
in trying to track down the SOURCE of this date.  Who first
began to mention it, why this particular date, etc.?  Also,
I am curious as to whether Pat Robertson mentioned this date
on his program in a positive or negative way--has he bought
into this as well?  It does not surprise me that the TBN
folks have picke up on this.  Any more information as to who
is saying what, and how this all started would be
appreciated.   James Tabor-Woodall


===============   Reply    6 of Note    1 =================

Board:      GOD OF THE BOOK BB
Topic:      BIBLE
Subject:    JUNE 9TH NEXT THURS

To:     FCKF43A    MICHAEL PERDUE        Date:    06/04
From:   UNBM55A    JAMES WOODALL         Time:     1:53 PM

For what its worth...further, someone just informed me today
that between June 9th and July 17th is precisely 40 days.
So what?  It turns out that July 17th is the 9th of Ab on
the Jewish calendar, a very significant day in Jewish
history, also it is the date the Comets are to hit Jupiter
(Zeus).  There is a guy in South Africa now predicting a
major earthquake on this date, July 17th, in California of
course, while 3 billion people from 180 countries are
watching the World Soccer Cup final that day, in the Rose
Bowl.  So far, from what I can draw together, this June 9th
date has been applied in the most diverse ways by those
pushing it.

**************     Conyers Apparitions     ***************
   Journal of Reported Teachings and Messages of Our Lord
       and Our Loving Mother at Conyers, Georgia, USA
          Compiled by Our Loving Mother's Children,
      P.O  Box 309, Conyers, GA. 30207   -   May 1994
***********************************************************

                      Introduction
     Messages are reportedly being given from Jesus and the
Blessed Mother to Nancy Fowler, a middle aged housewife and
mother in Conyers, Georgia.  Each month, recent messages are
published in a "Journal" which is distributed for free
through a network of volunteers who mail and further copy
and disseminate the "Journal".  The text of this month's
Journal appears below.
     On the 13th on each month from October 1990 to May
1994, the Blessed Mother appeared to Nancy at a farmhouse in
Conyers, Georgia to give a message for the United States.
Tens of thousands of people gathered in the fields each
month on the 13th to pray the Rosary and hear Nancy repeat
the monthly message from the Blessed Mother.  On Saturday,
November 13, 1993 and Friday, May 13, 1994 over 100,000
pilgrims were present.  These people came and prayed on hot
sunny days, on cold and cloudy winter days, in a blizzard,
in threatening tornadoes and in pouring rains.
     The last formal monthly message for the United States
was given on May 13, 1994 yet Nancy continues to experience
apparitons and receives messages from Jesus and the Blessed
Mother.  Jesus has told Nancy that the Blessed Mother will
appear to her each October 13th, the anniversary of the
monthly Conyers apparitions.
     Readers are encouraged to print, electronically copy
and forward this ASCII text file of a monthly Journal with
the condition that these messages not be altered in any way
and that all the messages in this Journal remain together in
one document (or in series of documents if the file is too
large to post/send as one).  Basically we ask that nothing
be added, changed nor taken away from a printed copy or the
electronic copy of the Journal which follows.  We also ask
that these messages be kept separate from and not be
incorporated with any other materials.
     If the reader wishes an official copy of the monthly
Journal as well as more information on the Conyers
apparitions and on books that contain compilations of
messages dating back to the late 1980's, please send a
stamped, self-addressed, standard business size envelope (4
x 9.5 inches) to Our Loving Mother's Children, P.O. 675,
Newington, VA  22122.  Thank you and may God bless you!
***********************************************************

  OUR LOVING MOTHER'S MONTHLY MESSAGE TO THE UNITED STATES
                     May 13, 1994
         Feast of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament,
        the day after the Feast of the Ascension and
      the Anniversary of the First Apparition at Fatima
                    *  *  *  *  *

     "My dear children, in the Peace and Love of my Son,
Jesus, I greet you.
     "My heart is joyful to see you gathered together in
prayer.  Pray always.  Be united as you are today.
     "Surrender.  Abandon your life to God.  Do not hold any
areas of your life back from God.  Trust in His care of you.
[A tear appeared in the Blessed Mother's eye.]
     "Do not be sad.  I do not leave you.  I remain with
you.
     "My Son desires your heart; please give it to Him.
     "My children, you have the Rosary.  Pray the Rosary
each day.
     "Accept the Scapular as a sign of devotion and
consecration to my Immaculate Heart.  Consecrate your
families and your children to me.
     "The refuge that you seek is in my heart.  I will take
you to the Heart of my Son.
     "My children, for several years I have come among you
in a special way.
     "The time has come for you to walk in faith.  Begin by
examining your life.  Seek frequent reconciliation with God.
     "Children, pray for each other.  Help each other.
     "There is sadness in my heart that my messages have not
been received by many.  Many of my children are lost; please
children, pray for them.
     "The purpose of my coming is to bring you to my Son.
     "Children, my Son has given you the Living Bread.  He
is the Living Bread come down from Heaven.  Partake of Him
with utmost purity and respect.  Please do not reject my
Son.  He has given you everything.
     "My mantel is outstretched over you.  I am gathering
you together to take you to my Son.  I need your help.  Go
out in Love among your sisters and brothers; perform acts of
charity and speak of my Son.  He lives among you and many of
you do not know Him."  [The Blessed Mother was crying clear
tears.]
     "Difficult days are ahead for you.  Repent, repent,
repent.  Please amend your ways.
     "I am the Loving Mother of God and I am [She paused]
your Loving Mother.  A mother has a child and I have given
you my Child.  I ask you to give of yourselves and begin to
live the Life of my Son.  My Son is being rejected by His
children everywhere.  [A map of the world appeared in red.]
I ask you to open your hearts and let Him live in you.
     "Thank you for responding to our invitations of Love.
     "Pray, children, pray.
     "With our hearts joined, let us walk behind my Son.
The time has come now for you to live the messages and to
walk in faith.
     "I love you."  [The Blessed Mother was crying.]
     "I am giving you a special blessing now which you can
extend to each other in Love.  I will bless everything you
have with you.
     "In the Peace and Love of my Son, I leave you, yet I
remain with you."

***********************************************************
*                                                         *
*          "The time has come now for you to live         *
*            the messages and to walk in faith."          *
*             The Blessed Mother - May 13, 1994           *
*                                                         *
***********************************************************

 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

     The Blessed Mother's May 13, 1994 monthly apparition
introduced a new phase of the apparitions in Conyers.  This
transition can be best explained in the words of Jesus and
the Blessed Mother to Nancy.  Some of these messages follow:

***********************************************************
*                                                         *
*        "Let My children come in faith and pray.         *
*          I promise you, My daughter, that they          *
*            will receive in great abundance."            *
*                  Jesus - May 11, 1994                   *
*                                                         *
***********************************************************
                        May 11, 1994
     Before Mass Jesus said to Nancy, "Our presence will
remain in Conyers in a special way.  Let My children come in
faith and pray.  I promise you, My daughter, that they will
receive in great abundance."
     Nancy said, "I'm sad."
     Jesus said, "Come to Me."

***********************************************************

             "Nancy, I am calling My children
                    to walk in faith."

***********************************************************

     A while later Jesus said, "The mockery that My Mother
has endured in coming to you is great.
     "My Mother loves each of her little children."
     Nancy said, "I'm sad.  I feel like crying."
     Jesus replied, "Nancy, I am calling My children to walk
in faith.
     "Will they come to a place where My mother has appeared
or will they not?

***********************************************************

            "Do you look for signs and wonders
                or do you look for Me ... "

***********************************************************

     "Do you look for signs and wonders or do you look for
Me in the silence of your heart, in all of creation, in each
other, in the breaking of the Bread, in My Living Word, in
My poor, in My sick, in My lonely, in My abused children, in
the blind, in the lame, in the deaf, in the imprisoned, in
the many lost souls?
     "I am inviting you to walk by faith and trust Me and
surrender your will to My Will.  Let My Kingdom come.
     "Live in My Will.
     "Pray: Thy Kingdom come, Thy Will be done."

***********************************************************

            "the children she has come to help
                    are rejecting her."

***********************************************************

     Nancy asked, "Is the mockery the Blessed Mother
receives because of me?"
     Jesus replied, "It is because My Mother is coming to a
land that receives her not.
     "The mockery is great because the children she has come
to help are rejecting her."


***********************************************************
*                                                         *
*              "Graces will continue to flow              *
*                 from my home in Conyers."               *
*                                                         *
***********************************************************
                    May 12, 1994 (12 am)
     Around midnight the Blessed Mother said to Nancy,
"Remember all that I have told you and I will ask you again
to live in imitation of Christ ...
     "Graces will continue to flow from my home in Conyers
...
     "Behold, I point you to the Eucharistic Jesus.  He is
the Living Manna come down from Heaven and His Mercy and
love are endless ..."

***********************************************************

          "I point you to the Eucharistic Jesus."

***********************************************************

     "Come.  Go before my Son.  He is in the Blessed
Sacrament.  Come to the memorial of my Son's passion.  Come,
little ones.  Come all to the Holy Mass ...
     "Be not sad but be joyful for my Son has given you
everything ...
     "I do not leave you.  I remain with you."
[Note: More of this message will be published in a future
Journal.]

                   THE MONTHLY APPARITION
                        May 13, 1994
     May 13, 1994 was a beautiful, sunny and warm Spring
day.  Public employees indicated the number of pilgrims
joining the Blessed Mother to pray the Rosary exceeded the
size of the previous largest crowd.  Officials had estimated
the largest crowd previously to be 100,000 people.  After
the apparition Nancy heard Jesus say that the number of
pilgrims was "well over 100,000."
     Earlier that morning as Nancy awoke, she looked up at
the crucifix on the wall above her bed and saw Jesus on the
crucifix glowing in light.  Next to the head of Jesus was a
circle of solid white light.  This vision of the circle
reminded Nancy of a Host.

         JESUS SPEAKS BEFORE THE MONTHLY APPARITION
     Nancy prepared herself in prayer in a small room
adjacent to the apparition room at the Farm.  Jesus appeared
in whiter than white, mystical light on the crucifix.
     Jesus said, "I am the Living Bread come down from
Heaven.
     "I am the Eternal Light."
     Nancy saw many saints and there was mystical light,
whiter than white.

***********************************************************

           "I have come as a mother and I have
           presented Jesus to you.  Go to Him."
              Blessed Mother - May 13, 1994

***********************************************************

            THE ACCOUNT OF THE MONTHLY APPARITION
     As the pilgrims sang the Fatima song, the Blessed
Mother appeared in mystical light and was dressed
beautifully all in white.
     The Blessed Mother said, "I come with my heavenly
court.  I will deliver a message for the Unites States at
the end of the Glorious Mysteries.  It is a long message.
     "I thank you, my dear children, for joining me in
prayer.
     "Pray from the heart, dear little ones, pray."
     Nancy saw great areas of red appear behind the Blessed
Mother.
     The Blessed Mother continued, "I have come to deliver
messages from the great Peacemaker.  My messages are not
being received.
     "My children should know that my Son and I are not
leaving this place but will remain here with you.  Come in
faith and pray."

***********************************************************

        "My children should know that my Son and I
        are not leaving this place but will remain
         here with you.  Come in faith and pray."

***********************************************************

     Nancy continued silently talking with the Blessed
Mother.  Then Nancy repeated what the Blessed Mother said:
"Look at the areas of the world that have great strife.
This and more awaits you if you do not return to God."
     Later the Blessed Mother said, "I am happy my children
have come to pray.  Now will my children go to my Son and
remain with Him?"
     Later the Blessed Mother said, "My children are living
their lives as if God does not exist.
     "Pray for them, pray ...
     "My messages are rejected.
     "I have come as a mother and I have presented Jesus to
you.  Go to Him.
     "Please thank all my little workers.
     "My Son showers my home in Conyers with many heavenly
graces ..."
     The Blessed Mother explained to Nancy that she was
giving a special blessing that day to the pilgrims.
     Nancy asked the Blessed Mother if the end of the formal
monthly messages was a sign of end times.
     The Blessed Mother replied, "It will be a sign of
faith."

***********************************************************

         "My visits here are to bring you to Jesus.
          Each time I come, my purpose is to bring
            you to my Son.  Always He is first."

***********************************************************

     Later the Blessed Mother said, "My visits here are to
bring you to Jesus.  Each time I come, my purpose is to
bring you to my Son.  Always He is first.
     "When you keep your eyes on my Son, you need not be
concerned about the many distractions that come to you."
     Nancy asked, "What about a sign for the people, Blessed
Mother?"
     "The sign my Son has given is written in the hearts of
His children.  You know His signature.  It is Love."
     The Blessed Mother then said, "Remember, I have not
ended my visits here."

***********************************************************

       "Remember, I have not ended my visits here."

***********************************************************

     The Blessed Mother showed Nancy a globe of the world
and said, "Wherever you go, my Son will bestow on you graces
and signs about you."
     With tears in her eyes, Nancy said, "Thank you" to the
Blessed Mother and said, "I will miss you."
     Then, with much tenderness in her voice, Nancy said, "I
love you.  I love Jesus."
     The Blessed mother replied, "Remember, I am not
leaving."
     Later Nancy saw the continents of the world appear in
red again.
     The Blessed Mother spoke of future events that Nancy
can not reveal.
     The Blessed Mother then said, "Remember these words: Be
strong for my Son."
     The Blessed Mother continued, "Now, no tears."
     Nancy replied, "Help me."
     At the end of the Rosary, the Blessed Mother said, "Now
it is the time for me to give the message."  The Blessed
Mother then gave the monthly message for the United States
which appears on the first page of this Journal.  After she
finished the message and as everyone made the Sign of the
Cross, the Blessed Mother with the Baby Jesus ascended and
departed.
     During the apparition, a person who was in the
apparition room while the Blessed Mother was appearing saw a
mushroom shaped cloud.  Nancy has also seen a vision of a
mushroom cloud several times previously.
     Another person who was also in the apparition room saw
scriptural references on the wall behind the Blessed Mother.
The Scriptures were Luke 3:18 and John 5:38.  Quoting from
the Good News Bible, these Scriptures read:
     Luke 3:18 - In many different ways John preached the
     Good News to the people and urged them to change their
     ways.
     John 5:38 - ... and you do not keep his message in your
     hearts, for you do not believe in the one whom he sent.
     Prior to the monthly apparition, Jesus told Nancy that
the Blessed Mother would appear and speak privately to her
in times of great need and trial.  Early in the morning on
May 27, 1994, the Blessed Mother appeared in Nancy at a time
of personnal need.
     Jesus also said that the Blessed Mother would appear to
Nancy and speak to her on the October 13th anniversary in
Conyers.  [Note: A large number of pilgrims are anticipated
on October 13, 1994.  Please make your travel arrangements
well in advance and plan to arrive early at the apparition
site.]
     October 13th is also the anniversay date of the last
apparition at Fatima.  The Fatima apparitions began on May
13, 1917 and lasted for six months.  The formal monthly
messages on the 13th for the United States at Conyers lasted
for 44 months and ended on May 13, 1994.  May 13th is also
the Feast of Our Lady of the Blessed Sacrament.
     Since May 13, 1994, the Blessed Mother has appeared to
Nancy as Our Lady of Fatima, all in white, and as Our Loving
Mother holding the Baby Jesus.  She has also appeared on the
top of an old Greek or Roman classic column and with an
angel kneeling in front of her.  In all these apparitions
the Blessed Mother was silent.
     After the May 13, 1994 apparition, Nancy received a
number of calls from pilgrims from Texas, Mexico, Miami and
other places.  These pilgrims informed her of their
experiences in seeing a glistening, golden colored dust on
their hands and clothes.  Also a photographer for a large
newspaper asked Nancy, "I had to keep wiping this glittering
dust off my camera.  What was that?".  Nancy was not
surprised by these events because the Blessed Mother had
told her in advance that this would happen.  [Our Loving
Mother's Children requests that the pilgrims who experienced
these graces to please send their testimony to Our Loving
Mother's Children, P.O. Box 309, Conyers, GA 30307 Attn:
Joy.]

***********************************************************
*                                                         *
*           "I have come to deliver messages              *
*               from the great Peacemaker.                *
*          My messages are not being received."           *
*           The Blessed Mother - May 13, 1994             *
*                                                         *
***********************************************************

 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

***********************************************************
*                                                         *
*          "When I stop giving monthly messages,          *
*             you can know the time is near."             *
*                                                         *
***********************************************************
                    Undated - Circa 1992
     The Blessed Mother said, "When I stop giving monthly
messages, you can know the time is near."

***********************************************************
*                                                         *
*                  "I am the Peacemaker."                 *
*                                                         *
***********************************************************
                        June 12, 1993
     Jesus said, "My dear children, I welcome you.  My
little ones, I love you.  Pray much, My little ones.  Pray
much for peace.
     "More conflicts will come.  Men will disagree with men.
One conflict after another will come because man refuses to
come to Me.  I am the Peacemaker.
     "Behold, I am the Living Son of God.  I am He who
appears before you now.
     "Pray children for peace.  Pray that My children
everywhere will come to Me.  I am the Peacemaker."

***********************************************************
*                                                         *
*        "I am here and I am blessing My children."       *
*                                                         *
***********************************************************
                        May 20, 1994
     After praying the Rosary in the Friday night cenacle at
the Farm, the prayer group was reading message #253 from the
Blessed Mother in Father Gobbi's book, Our Lady Speaks to
Her Priests.  The message was originally received by Father
Gobbi in Rome on November 20, 1982.  The title of the
message was "Obedient, Chaste and Poor".
     Speaking to her priest-sons, the Blessed Mother asked
them in this message to be docile and obedient to the Will
of God through obedience to the Church, their superiors and
particularly the Pope.  The Blessed Mother also asked for
chastity in mind, heart and body and that they be poor in
material goods and in spirit.
     As the message was read, Jesus said, "My children need
to hear these words.
     "I am here and I am blessing My children."
     The second reading was message #340 from Our Lady
Speaks to Her Priests which was titled: "My Remedy for Your
Illnesses" and it was given at a cenale in Dallas, Texas on
December 3, 1986.  As the third paragraph of the message was
read, Nancy felt chills as she heard the beautiful words of
love, encouragement and hope from the Blessed Mother to Fr.
Gobbi.
     Jesus then said, "I know how to get your attention."
     Towards the end of the Blessed Mother's message to Fr.
Gobbi, Nancy saw a vision of a solid black circle suspended
in mid-air which reminded her of a Host.  She understood
this vision as an affirmation of the Blessed Mother's words
in the message concerning her children receiving Holy
Communion sacrilegiously.
     In the message the Blessed Mother spoke to Father Gobbi
of three wounds causing pain to her motherly heart.  The
Blessed Mother was talking specifically about her children
in the United States.  The first wound was caused by
apostasy.  The second wound was caused by disunity and the
third wound was caused by infidelity.
     As she spoke of the third wound, the Blessed Mother
talked of the necessity of frequent confession and how it
becomes indispensable before one who is in the state of
mortal sin may receive Holy Communion.  The Blessed Mother
also said to Father Gobbi that the Church in the United
States is all wounded because of Holy Communion received
sacrilegiously.
     Later Nancy saw a vision of a black heart over a white
crucifix.
     Jesus said, "Many sacrileges are being committed
worldwide."
     Nancy kept seeing the vision of a black heart over a
white crucifix.  Then as the prayer group sang the song "Let
There Be Peace on Earth", Jesus said, "Men do not desire
Peace today.  They do not desire Me."
     Nancy also recalled seeing visions during the cenacle
of several mushroom shaped clouds.  [Nancy does not share
the visions nor any message she experiences during the
cenacle but reverently waits until afterwards.]

[Note: The messages of the Blessed Mother to Father Gobbi
are available in the book Our Lady Speaks to Her Priests.
The book in English is over 800 pages and is available by
donation from The Marian Movement of Priests in the United
States of America, P.O. Box 8, St. Francis, Maine  04774-
0008.  The book is also available in many other languages.

                        May 27, 1994
     Nancy saw a vision of what looked like bacteria as they
would appear under a microscope but magnified many times.
The bacteria were moving and changing in appearance.

                        May 28, 1994
     At the Saturday vigil Mass, during the reading of the
second part of the responsorial psalm, Nancy saw an angel
appear, holding a trumpet to his mouth.  Nancy did not hear
any sound from the trumpet.

                 May 30, 1994 - Memorial Day
     After Mass Nancy saw very large oriental writings
suspended in the air like on a huge banner.  The writings
were in black characters and stretched across the sanctuary
of the church.

 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

                        July 13, 1993
     During the monthly apparition, Nancy asked what would
happen when the apparitions and the monthly messages for the
United States on the 13th of each month come to an end.
     The Blessed Mother said, "My Son will continue to
instruct you in His ways.  I will be at His side.  Only
rarely will I speak as God permits."

***********************************************************
*                                                         *
*               "... it saddens My heart;                 *
*         if only My children would be children."         *
*                                                         *
***********************************************************
                       August 7, 1993
     Nancy came to Jesus asking for help with her talk in
Puerto Rico.  She was afraid of speaking in public.
     Jesus said, "Oh My little one, you come like the
innocence of a child.  I love your childlike qualities.  I
am drawn like a magnet to a little soul.  Let My children
come unto Me.  Again I say, it saddens My heart; if only My
children would be children.  Tell them, precious one, repeat
My words often.
     "Let My words burn within your heart.  Implant My word
deep within your heart.  Oh how I love you, all My
children."
     Nancy said to George, "I'm never going to be a public
speaker."
     Jesus replied, "As long as you keep on saying it and
doing it, I do not mind.
     "See what My life and My strength can do.  You come to
Me like a little child, frightened and in need of help.
Again I say in your weakness and littleness, I am attached
to you.  Teach others to depend on Me.  I am the Way, the
Truth, the Life.  Tell them, Nancy, I am living.  I am their
living God.
     "If they knew Me and were close to Me, they would hear
Me in the greatest silence of their hearts.  Be still and
know that I am God."
     When the mystical light faded, Nancy told George that
she thought the vision had ended and that Jesus was gone.
     Jesus then said, "That is what the world thinks.  They
think I am finished with them.  I am ever present to them.
The world does not know it.  Tell them, precious one, about
My living presence."

***********************************************************
*                                                         *
*         "I am ever present to them.  The world          *
*      does not know it.  Tell them, precious one,        *
*               about My living presence."                *
*                                                         *
***********************************************************

               PLEASE VISIT OUR LOVING MOTHER!
     Pilgrims are welcome to the apparition site and the
Holy Hill daily.  The Divine Mercy Chaplet and Rosary are
said at 3 pm each day including Sunday.  On the 13th of each
month the Rosary will begin at the Farm in the apparition
room at 12 noon.  Our Loving Mother's continuing presence
"in a special way" will be honored in faith.

      BACK ISSUES OF ALL MONTHLY JOURNALS NOW AVAILABLE
     The monthly Conyers Journal will continue to be
published and distributed through Our Loving Mother's
Network.  Due to the delays in publishing Volume III of To
Bear Witness that I AM the Living Son of God, a complete set
of back issues of the monthly Journal, beginning with the
first issue in April 1992 through May 1994, is now
available.  Please send $10.00 plus $2.00 for shipping and
handling to: Our Loving Mother's Children, P.O. Box 675,
Newington, VA  22122.

             THE SCIENTIFIC AND MEDICAL TESTING
     We have received a number of requests for information
on the results of the medical and scientific tests performed
on Nancy in the late Spring and Summer of 1993.   We will
cover this topic in an upcoming issue of the Journal.  This
topic is also the subject of a new book by the Australian
lawyer, Ron Tesoriero, titled "Why do you test Me?".  The
book documents the medical and scientific testing done on
Nancy prior to, during and after the June 13, 1993 monthly
apparition.
     On April 29, 1993, Jesus told Nancy, "The results of
the scientific team will be astonishing."  Needless to say,
the doctors and scientists were astonished!  The book gives
an in-depth account of how the team tested Nancy's claimed
mystical experiences.  The book can be ordered for $9.95
plus $2.00 for postage and handling from Our Loving Mother's
Children, P.O. Box 675, Newington, VA 22122.

                OUR LOVING MOTHER'S NETWORK
     The monthly Conyers Journal is available for free.  To
receive, please send a six month supply of stamped, self-
addressed envelopes to the address on the first page of this
Journal and write the name of a different month on each
envelope.
     To hear the latest available Conyers messages call:
404-498-1891; 404-922-8226; 716-827-0955, 703-913-0139 or
703-503-7991.

A friend of mine found an interesting prophecy posted on SOPABOX which might
have bearing on this topic. I have extracted only the prophecy and information
surrounding it; the author of the note discusses some oddities concerning the
Comet and speculates further on what might happen when it impacts Jupiter
in July. The mystic was quite accurate on the date for this impact; it is
expected to occur between 16 - 24 July, 1994. 

			******************************

Note 157.21
SOAPBOX
Topic: Shoemaker-Levy


Polish astronomer Sofia (RELIGIOUS NAME SISTER MARIE GABRIEL)
printed a cosmic forecast seven years ago on the _4TH JULY
1986_ in all the northwest London press newspapers that a huge
cosmic event is due soon namely the great cosmic explosion of
a giant comet in our solar system. ...

        A GIGANTIC COMET IS ABOUT TO COLLIDE WITH THE PLANET
        JUPITER BY 25TH JULY 1994 CAUSING THE BIGGEST COSMIC
        EXPLOSION IN THE HISTORY OF MANKIND!!! AS A WARNING
        ULTIMATUM FROM ALMIGHTY GOD TO ALL GOVERNMENTS

that they must obey his message at top speed or face global
extinction by an asteroid read the prophet Isiah chapter 24
God commands all nations to:  ...

From:	US4RMC::"[email protected]" "Apparition List"
3-JUN-1994
Subj:	Re: June 9th

(Mary Ann Daly said)
At the risk of appearing to promote interest in knowing more than God's
mercy means us to know, namely the date of the Warning, and of cluttering
your mailboxes with further redundant mailings, I am attaching the
"original post" referring to a priest's insight on the June 9 date,
since so many people here have been wondering about it.  Perhaps Peter,
the sender, would be able to elucidate further.
***************************************************************
(Original post)
Subj:   "... 3 months ...."  Unusual time reference?
                :
                :
Subj:   April 7, 1994 Scottsdale, AZ Messages
                :
                :
This is from Fr. Jack's sermon on Mercy Sunday.  He stated the
following in a short homily:
                :
                :
2. For the next three months until the feast of Corpus
Christi pray like you have never prayed in you lives.  Pray
for peace and for the Mercy of God.
                :
                :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        It is unusual/unheard of for specific time periods/dates
to be mentioned; the above may confirm something said last Fall
from a local priest who has been a continuing host to visionaries
these past many years, that being that the Day of Conscience would
occur June 9th-94 (the Thursday following Corpus Christi). We were
shocked to hear him say such a thing, dates being dangerous in these
matters, but I pass it on anyway.

        Peace.
        Peter
***************************************************************
(further elucidation)
        I sent the above after a coworker, whom I feel is a truly
spiritual person, related it to me and after asking her permission
to do so. This spring her father passed away and her best friend, with
whom she and her family traveled to Conyers several times as well as
to Fr. D'Orio several times (and from whom she received quite a remarkable
healing), passed away. I had planned on asking her Thursday for permission
to reply to the inquiry but she called in to say her father-in-law
suddenly and unexpectedly passed away the night before...she has her
crosses and I pray for her and her loved ones. So I'm replying but feel
it is all right with her.
        She did see this priest two or three weeks ago and he confirmed
his belief, telling her it was told to him by another priest last year.
The priest I mention runs a retreat house and has hosted Maria Esperanza
(Betania), Eileen George (Mass.), Fr. Robert DeGrandis S.J. and Anne Ross
Fitch (Scottsdale), Ted Flynn, Michael Brown, etc. etc. In fact there is
available an excellent 4 video series taken at the house from the DeGrandis/
Fitch "Spiritual Healing Retreat"(1994), videos of the Michael Brown/Ted Flynn
talks, etc. but I digress.
        I'm reminded of one of Eileen George's conversations circa 1982 with
The Father where she was told of a fifteen year war, which didn't seem to
fit into any of the current postulated time tables, and then the more
recent message, the source of which I think was Fr. Gobbi, stating that the
prayers of the faithful have already greatly reduced the duration times of
the events...let the events happen when they may, it is our joyful duty to
lovingly pray and make reparation for ourselves, our country and the world.
I hope all of us join in this First Friday/First Saturday weekend...Peace.
        Peter

% ====== Internet headers and postmarks (see DECWRL::GATEWAY.DOC) ======
% From: Approved/reputable apparition repository <[email protected]>

I had a difficult dream the night of 1-JUN-1994. The meaning became obvious
to me as I shared it with a friend afterwards. I will give the meaning of 
the elements within the dream and relate the larger meaning.

In the dream I was not so much a participant as a spectator along with 
another person [Witnesses!]. It was like watching a drama. There was a rich 
family that had a mansion. One night there was a terrible and evil carnage 
that went on and most of the family and staff were brutally massacared. A 
young person survived and so did one staff member. Both of these people had
good souls. The staff member warned the young heir not to take claim of the 
mansion because it was now turned over to the evil one due to all the savage 
killings. 

The staff member handed the person a suitcase with a foam interior. Imbedded
in the foam were three objects. I did not see these clearly but had a distinct
impression about them nevertheless.  The two outer objects were some kind of 
'tool or aid' but they had ornate and very colorful figurines on the top.
I understood that these figurines were representations of Jesus and Mary.
The inner object was shiny and it looked like a chalice and a small shallow
pan which would be represenative of the Mass. The young person heeded the 
warning, took the kit and left by car.

Somehow, I and the other viewer continued to watch this mansion and scene.
Another heir, one with a more arrogant nature, came along and tried to claim 
the mansion. The same servant warned him that this was dangerous but he 
insisted. What followed was a fury of demonic activity which even affected 
myself and the viewer because of its intensity. For us it was only a 
harrassment but the arrogant heir was utterly consumed by the evil 'blast'.

The end is really fuzzy. It seems that a few of us were standing around in
a very spacious area like the entrance of a movie stage set. We were saying
good-byes and everything was all right now. Somehow it was as if the whole
thing were a drama that we had been in or witnessed. 

			****************************

Self & friend - witnesses

rich mansion - ungodliness

initial carnage/fury - a judgement/purification?

Good servant - Jesus

good heir - obedient to God; humble. Protected from the carnage and called
	out of the mansion - called out of the ungodly; heir = God's chosen.

suitcase - represents valuables and indicates a journey. We are pilgrims in
	this life. Our aids our are faith. [In this case I saw in the case
	representations of my Catholic faith.]

arrogant heir - rebellious one who does not listed to God, who seeks to
	turn back to unrighteousness

final fury of evil - consumes the evil ones; chastisement; not merciful
	protection from God; time of God's Justice.

ending scene - the good remain and are thanked for their witnessing role
	to the work of the 'director' [God]. 

		*************************************

I see this as being a dream which indicates that there will be a Warning
in which the faithful will be protected. We will be called out of 
unrighteousness and given all that we will need; this, of course, is our
Faith in Jesus. We are warned not to go back to our old ways but to stay
on the pilgrim's journey. Those who do not remain converted and try to
enter back into the evil of the 'old mansion' will not have God's merciful
protection again, but will open themselves up to the fullness of their
evil choice.

	Less than 3 days!!!!!

re.114

Maybe something will happen tonight and June 9th will never arrive for some of
us.

re.115

Hello Ace ...... you there????

								Andrew

re.116

	Yes, Andrew. The Lord has extended another day to me on this earth to
know Him more.

	Tommorrow I don't know about, but today is here. 

ace

Phew!  After .115, I needed that reassurance, bro ;-)

							Andrew

    The European elections are tomorrow - not sure if that's at all
    significant. 

Kidding aside, Ace is exactly right.  Who of us knows when God will call
us personally to account for ourselves.  As the cliche goes, you can't
get ready, you have to be ready.  If you plan on someday becoming ready,
you may already be too late.

Thanks Ace, because it is a reminder that we have often.

 Good point, Mark.  I've talked to so many people that like to say 
 "when I see those things happening, those signs, I'll get saved"..thinking
 that they can get saved in the "twinkling of an eye"



Now is the appointed time, today is the day of our salvation..




Jim

	2 days and counting...... tick tick tick tick......

Exactly so, Mark.  Recently in my fellowship, we've been reminded of very
poignantly that we do not know when He may call any into His presence.

Even for Christians, we need to continually think how we are living - in 
His presence all the time.  Would you be ashamed if He were to step into 
the room...  If so, change to live more comfortably, and be ready to 
welcome Him at any time!

Julie, I think the majority of the June 9th warnings appeared to be 
directly concerned with the U.S., but even so, I think the European 
elections are a sombre reminder of man's dsire to reverse Babel, and a sign 
of the times.

							Andrew

Luke 12
 16  And he spake a parable unto them, saying, The ground of a certain rich
man brought forth plentifully:
 17  And he thought within himself, saying, What shall I do, because I have
no room where to bestow my fruits?
 18  And he said, This will I do: I will pull down my barns, and build
greater; and there will I bestow all my fruits and my goods.
 19  And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many
years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.
 20  But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required
of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
 21  So is he that layeth up treasure for himself, and is not rich toward
God.
 22  And he said unto his disciples, Therefore I say unto you, Take no
thought for your life, what ye shall eat; neither for the body, what ye shall
put on.
 23  The life is more than meat, and the body is more than raiment.


This passage has so much more to do with the condition of our soul than it
does about "treasures" which is what we like to focus on.  It isn't the
treasure but the attitude towards the treasure, folks.  The treasure was
plentiful but the attitude was selfish.

 30  For all these things do the nations of the world seek after: and your
Father knoweth that ye have need of these things.
 31  But rather seek ye the kingdom of God; and all these things shall be
added unto you.
 32  Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give
you the kingdom.
 33  Sell that ye have, and give alms; provide yourselves bags which wax not
old, a treasure in the heavens that faileth not, where no thief approacheth,
neither moth corrupteth.
 34  For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.

Make a living, sell your wares, make a profit - and be generous with it,
because God gave it to you.   Whatever your attitude is towards your 
treasure (and not just talking things but selfishness at the core), that's
what will determine your destiny when God requires our soul from us.

 37  Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find
watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to
sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
 38  And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch,
and find them so, blessed are those servants.
 39  And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the
thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be
broken through.
 40  Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye
think not.

MM

>	2 days and counting...... tick tick tick tick......

Is this ridicule, Glen?  

I would be careful of ridicule, even if I suspected that some of these people
were misguided, but then when have you been careful?

MM

    In a sense I'm still looking forward to the day.  I've completely wiped
    out the bandwagon jumpers and still keep the original prophecy (by
    Hinkle) in mind (and the confirmation by Griffis).

	Mark, I've noticed if I put any type of snarf/joke etc in you jump all
over it. Why is that? Should I only be in the joke part of notes to do that?
Oh, I guess chit chat would be ok too. Coming from someone who does joke from
time to time, I can't figure out why you would mention it. Oh well....


Glen

>	Mark, I've noticed if I put any type of snarf/joke etc in you jump all
>over it. Why is that? Should I only be in the joke part of notes to do that?
>Oh, I guess chit chat would be ok too. Coming from someone who does joke from
>time to time, I can't figure out why you would mention it. Oh well....

(a) check the record of me ignoring you for the past several months
(b) I know you can't figure it out, which is why I've ignored you
(c) but I asked a question as to whether you were ridiculing, which
      you call here a "joke".  Perhaps you need to figure out
      the appropriateness of certain "forms" of humor;
(d) our joking does not appear to be the same thing; 
(e) neither does our Lord.

Mark

The very first time I read anything about a 'June 9th date' it was a vague
entry on 23-APRIL from an Internet list; apparently a priest had been
told this date from a well-known visionary. The person who originally
posted the note has now responded with more information. 

From:	US4RMC::"[email protected]" "Apparition List"  3-JUN-1994
Subj:	Re: June 9th

[request for more clarification was deleted]

***************************************************************
(Original post)
Subj:   "... 3 months ...."  Unusual time reference?
                :
                :
Subj:   April 7, 1994 Scottsdale, AZ Messages
                :
                :
This is from Fr. Jack's sermon on Mercy Sunday.  He stated the
following in a short homily:
                :
                :
2. For the next three months until the feast of Corpus
Christi pray like you have never prayed in you lives.  Pray
for peace and for the Mercy of God.
                :
                :
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        It is unusual/unheard of for specific time periods/dates
to be mentioned; the above may confirm something said last Fall
from a local priest who has been a continuing host to visionaries
these past many years, that being that the Day of Conscience would
occur June 9th-94 (the Thursday following Corpus Christi). We were
shocked to hear him say such a thing, dates being dangerous in these
matters, but I pass it on anyway.

        Peace.
        Peter
***************************************************************

(further elucidation)

        I sent the above after a coworker, whom I feel is a truly
spiritual person, related it to me and after asking her permission
to do so.

	[non-applicable paragraph removed for further clarity]

        She did see this priest two or three weeks ago and he confirmed
his belief, telling her it was told to him by another priest last year.
The priest I mention runs a retreat house and has hosted Maria Esperanza
(Betania), Eileen George (Mass.), Fr. Robert DeGrandis S.J. and Anne Ross
Fitch (Scottsdale), Ted Flynn, Michael Brown, etc. etc. In fact there is
available an excellent 4 video series taken at the house from the DeGrandis/
Fitch "Spiritual Healing Retreat"(1994), videos of the Michael Brown/Ted Flynn
talks, etc. but I digress.

	[another digressing paragraph removed]
        
        Peter

% From: Approved/reputable apparition repository <[email protected]>

	Mark, you bring a smile to my face everytime you note to me. Man, I
know a good laugh is needed from time to time, but you're taking it to the
limit! 


Glen

 Please take any notes directed at individuals to mail.  The moderator
staff is rather limited right now, and your cooperation is appreciated.



Jim Co-Mod

 Please take any notes directed at individuals to mail.  The moderator
staff is rather limited right now, and your cooperation is appreciated.

Any further replies with comments aimed at individuals will be deleted.

Jim Co-Mod

    
    
    >Any further replies with comments aimed at individuals will be
    deleted.
    
    Jim ( this is aimed at you), I think your doing a great job!

  Re: Dan...take it to mail ;-)






 Jim

Jim, please take your reply to Dan to mail.

 Done

>Jim, please take your reply to Dan to mail.

John, please take your reply to Jim whose reply was to Dan whose note
was aimed at Jim to mail.

MM

Well, it's already June 9th in Sydney, Australia (12:17 am)...

Mark, please take............

Paul, was that directed at ME!??!??!

Jimbo!!!  

 Wise guys...

    re:139

    John, I would guess the supposed event will be on June 9th in the
    time zone the prophecy was given.

    Jim 

    re: .139
    
    Also, we are not really sure of the scope of the June 9th action; it
    might be a 'beginning' of this ripping of evil out of the world. In
    that case it might begin with only one localized action which sets
    into motion a full work of God. Anyone who has read the Old Testamnet
    from Genesis to Malachi knows that God's timing is not like our own
    human expectancy. We must prayerfully discern everything here.
    
    Many of the June prophecies [Griffis & Clement] seem to point to 
    some event in the USA in particular.
    
    MAry
    

Well, it is June 8th. I admit once again that I have not received any direct 
word concerning June 9th yet I have taken it seriously based on an inner sense
of the truth and spiritual honesty that I have perceived in the prophets 
who have been given this date. I have spread these prophecies on this basis.

Furthermore, I do firmly believe that we are at least NEARING the great 
events of the End Times. Much of the prophecy in this string might come at a 
later date; it is true that we have not been given much indication of either 
the time of these events or their sequence. Even those giving the June 9th
date cannot tell us how it will all unfold or how much is to occur on that
one date. From reading both the Hinkle and Griffis material I feel that, if
anything, this will be a beginning. As Christians, we will be called into
further evangelical service as our unconscious world begins to awaken to
both the realities of sin and evil and of God and His Righteousness and
Goodness. First and foremeost we must look at all events with an openness to
the underlying spiritual battle being waged.

I have prayed about this and the Lord has quite dramatically motivated me
beyond my own capacity and waffling to spread not only the Hinkle & Griffis
prophecies, but a larger body of End Times prophecies that I have collected
over the years, a small portion of which has been given here. I compiled
them into an inch-thick booklet and, along with a letter and personal note,
sent them to family and friends. Some of these people have been far from
the Lord and others are faithful.

My Christian sister accepted the prophecy about the 9th with the comment
that she was planning to leave on the 8th for a trip to North Carolina but
she had been interiorly bothered about leaving then. When I told her the 
prophecy it confirmed her inner sense about that date and she has postponed 
the trip until next week and now has no inner reservations.

My father has been far from any Christian faith but I've had both prophecy
concerning his conversion and I sense the Holy Spirit at work with him. When
I spoke to both my parents last night he came to the phone while I and my
mother [a Protestant Christian] discussed the prophecy and booklet. She,
also, received the material very positively. She had heard some discussion
about the June 9th date on TBN but had never caught enough of it. Her
attitude towards it was open and mature. What is remarkable is that my 
father did not scurry away from this religiously oriented discussion. Also,
he had a quality of peace about him that I can only say is from God.

Now, I know that if nothing is perceived to happen on June 9th there might
be some risks here. However, I really believe the Holy Spirit will use
this to all good for those who truly love God. I will praise Him today, on
the 9th, on the 10th, and every day of my life.

I'm sure Hinkle, Griffis, myself and others have spread these prophecies
after much prayer and in obedience to our understanding of God's Will, and 
for God's praise and glory. The spirit giving prophecies is discerned in
many ways; it is more than just an immediate questioning of the spirit but
it is also the way we are motivated through prayerful discernment. 
Furthermore, each of us have had to overcome the same doubts, fears, 
weaknesses and attacks that would have us remain silent. Rev. Hinkle and
David Griffis have put their entire ministries on the line before the
whole church over this. I would say that they have already endured and
demonstrated many trials of discernment already. 

Just as it took the veil to be torn on Calvary before the centurian and
others could see that, 'this was, indeed, the Son of God', so may it take
events to be fulfilled for even the faithful to see the scriptural 
correlations. Griffis, Hinkle and others have received scripture related
to their prophecies. In prayer, may we be led in the same manner.

Peace of Jesus,

Mary

re.145

>Just as it took the veil to be torn on Calvary before the centurian and
>others could see that, 'this was, indeed, the Son of God',

	The centurian did not see the veil torn if that is what you meant. The
veil separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies. And there is no
indication that those who were in a position to see the veil tear ever
recognized that he was "indeed, the Son of God". 
	There was an earthquake however, and no doubt this caused the centurian
and others to recognize the power associated with the Lord. Earthquakes often do
that to people. At least for a while.

	The point may still stand that it often takes calamity to turn people's
hearts to the Lord. But it is important to be accurate.

Regards,
ace

    Mary,
    
    There is nothing in Hinkle's prophecy that indicates a beginning on
    June 9.  In fact, he clearly states that "on that day" ALL men will see
    Him as He really is and it will be the fulfillment of the Scripture
    that says "every knee shall bow..." etc.
    
    You may sense that tomorrow will be a beginning of something, and
    that's fine, but I wanted to clarify that Hinkle's prophecy says
    nothing of the sort.
    
    Steve

    And if nothing happens will Hinckle and Griffis be stoned?

re.148

It's against the law to get stoned |*) whether anything happens on June 9th or
not.

8*)  

    *be* not *get* sheesh!  
    
    

re.151

	But Bob, the opportunity was staring me right square in the face! I just
couldn't let it pass by.

ace

    Nancy, you're not the one to be saying they should be stoned just
    because you're stoned.

re <<< Note 476.155 by FRETZ::HEISER "ugadanodawonumadja" >>>
>-< Everbody must get stoned >-

Well, it's June 9 here, and it's 1994....
Did we miss something?

Chele

They say you're going to have to wait until 4AM tomorrow your time
for the event, whatever (or if) it's going to be.

/john

re <<< Note 476.157 by COVERT::COVERT "John R. Covert" >>>

>They say you're going to have to wait until 4AM tomorrow your time
>for the event, whatever (or if) it's going to be.

>/john

That's what we get for living in the provinces  :^)


Chele

    Last night I got home from work to my 7 year old son telling me 
    the Jacob (who's Dad is a pastor) and his whole church and 
    even his Mom and Dad said that the rapture is going to be 
    today.
    
    Talk about a teachable moment.

    I told my son that some speculate today is the day Christ comes to get
    us.  I aid, "If it is, I'll meet you there."  He said, "REALLY?"  I
    said, "Well, since we really WON'T know becasue God did promise that it
    would happen in the twinkling of an eye and without warning... - I'll
    just plan to meet you there whenever it happens."
    
    I have a bumper sticker on my car..."In the twinkling of an eye..."
    showing a pair of empty sneakers...
    
    -sandy
    

 Hah!  I like that bumper sticker!




Jim

    9:30 and all's well...
    
    as far as I know, anyway.

re.161

	What makes you think the sneakers won't go with you? 


8*)

re.163

>   9:30 and all's well...
    
>    as far as I know, anyway.

This made me think that we should be this watchful everyday...

ace

	Good thing I turned my timecard in early! :-)


Glen

I'm not sure the rapture will see our earthly bodies transported upward.
I am sure that "we" will be what goes to heaven.  I'd be happy if
today was the day, and I anticipate His return.  Do you?

But if not today, then tomorrow I shall anticipate Him still.

MM

    I don't think we're going to get an exact date of the rapture, though
    study of the prophesies may reveal certain time-frames of major events,
    and may suggest the "season" of the rapture.  Only the Father knows the
    exact day and hour.
    
    Not that I won't anticipate daily..  8^)
    
    -steve

 Last night we sang the hymn "it will be worth it all"


 It will be worth it all
 when we see Jesus
 lifes [?] will seem so small
 when we see Christ

 One glimpse of His dear face
 all sorrows will erace
 so bravely run the race
 til we see Christ..


 And our pastor interrupted between verses and talked about "what if..right
 now He were to call us..and we do glimpse his face, smiling as we rise
 to meet Him"

 
 "know this first of all, that in the last days mockers will come with their
 mocking, following after their own lusts, and saying 'where is the promise of
 His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep, all continues just as it
 was from the beginning of the creation'.."But the present heavens and the
 earth by His word are being reserved for fire, kept for the day of judgement
 and destruction of ungodly men, but do not let this one fact escape your notice
 beloved, that with the Lord one day is a thousand years, and a thousand years
 one day, the Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but
 is patient toward you, not wishing that any should perish, but all come to
 repentance, but the day of the Lord will come like a thief..."

 2 Peter 3:3,4,7-10a



Jim

Hi Jim,

It will be worth it all when we see what the Lord has prepared for us.
Seeing Jesus face to face, hearing Him speak is something I look forward
to with great anticipation and excitement.  But that next line in the song,
I'm not so sure I agree with:

>> lifes [?] will seem so small
>> when we see Christ

I think that when we meet God, that is when we will see how truely valuable
and important we are to Him.  Not because of what we have done, but because
of how much He loves us !  We will see our proper place in His creation and
will realize that we are an integral, irreplaceable part of it.  I think
we will have a great sense of completion and fulfillment then -  it won't be 
a puffed up pride because of our accomplishments, but it will be a very, very
good feeling.  We will each be over-joyed to have been and to be exactly who 
we are because God has made us who we are.

Leslie

    re: sneakers staying behind...makes me think of leaving so quickly he
    walked out of his shoes...in the drawing the lines that depict
    departure are flowing upward...guess he was in a hurry
    
    -sjd
    

RE:         <<< Note 476.170 by KAHALA::JOHNSON_L "Leslie Ann Johnson" >>>


>It will be worth it all when we see what the Lord has prepared for us.
>Seeing Jesus face to face, hearing Him speak is something I look forward
>to with great anticipation and excitement.  But that next line in the song,
>I'm not so sure I agree with:

>>> lifes [?] will seem so small
>>> when we see Christ


 I remembered...its "life's cares will seem so small" when we see Christ.


>I think that when we meet God, that is when we will see how truely valuable
>and important we are to Him.  Not because of what we have done, but because
>of how much He loves us !  We will see our proper place in His creation and
>will realize that we are an integral, irreplaceable part of it.  I think
>we will have a great sense of completion and fulfillment then -  it won't be 
>a puffed up pride because of our accomplishments, but it will be a very, very
>good feeling.  We will each be over-joyed to have been and to be exactly who 
>we are because God has made us who we are.


AMEN! 



Jim

� lifes [?] will seem so small
� when we see Christ

Depends what the [?] is.  I don't think it means that our lives are of 
minimal significance, or it would be 'lives', and no need for a [?].

- probably something like life's troubles, or life's pains, corresponding 
to Romans 8:18 :
 "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the 
  glory that will be revealed in us."

or 2 Corinthians 4:17 :
 "For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal 
  glory that far outweighs them all...

or Philippians 3:8
 "...I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of 
  knowing Christ Jesus my LORD..."

Leslie, I fully agree with your balance there - I just think the song was 
saying something else.  But don't those verses just put everything into 
perspective?  When I see Jesus...  The fulfillment of all I could hope for. 
It would be exhilarating and totally fulfilling if I could but exist for an 
instance of eternity, beholding Him....  but He doesn't do things by half 
measure.  He's actually making me to be a part of eternity with Him!  
Constantly adoring Him and worshipping Him; feasting my soul on His 
perfection.  And His work in my life down here is what builds me into what 
He has for me, for eternity...  Looking forward to seeing all you
perfected folks also.  No weight loss note in eternity ;-)

					love you

							Andrew

�                               -< life's cares >-

Mmmmm.  I picked up your's after entering mine, but figured I wasn't too 
far off ;-).  Must have taken me around 8 minutes between starting and 
finishing entering my reply (which probably has lots of other things 
happening during the time as well...).

							&

    Mike set this up to be posted in the event the rapture took place
    today.  He sends his love and is having a great time.  He wishes all of
    you were here!
    
    {posted by the ENOTES batch-mode Notes tool}

Ah life's cares - okay, makes sense :-).  For some reason I read that as 
meaning life or lives (plural of life) and not as a "fill in the missing 
word" mark.  Ah well.  In a way, I'm still glad for the trigger it provided 
to comment on what it will be like to experience the completing of what God 
designed us for, and His great love for us.

Leslie

RE : <<< Note 476.176 by FRETZ::HEISER "ugadanodawonumadja" >>>
                  -< weather's here, wish you were beautiful >-

cute, Mike, real cute :-)

Life's trials will seem so small...

But maybe the Baptist version has cares in it.  ;-)

>    Mike set this up to be posted in the event the rapture took place
>    today.  He sends his love and is having a great time.  He wishes all of
>    you were here!
    
>    {posted by the ENOTES batch-mode Notes tool}



Quick...somebody see if his shoes are still there!



Jim

Re Mark...



"trials" it is...The Baptist hymnal has it right..you guys musta copied it ;-)





Jim

>"trials" it is...The Baptist hymnal has it right..you guys musta copied it ;-)


Well, perhaps Esther Kerr Rusthoi was a baptist?  She lived from 1909 to 1962
which is plenty of time for her to be a Nazarene, which is NOT a prerequisite
for our hymnal (or Charles Wesley was Nazarene). ;^)

Mark-Shell-answer-man-Metcalfe

 .183 set hidden pending mod discussion.





 Jim Co Mod

    Well, it is June 10th and I only have one thing to day
    
    hahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahahahahahahaha
    
    So who is going to listen to those preacher guys now? 
    
    When will people learn not to put a D in Day for the will of the
    Lord?!
    Live your lives to the best knowledge you have of the Father, and
    concern yourself not about the future for today has concerns enough of
    its own.
    
    -PDM

    So was Mike the only one to go? Avoids TFSO and now this!

    Well, there was an interesting earthquake...hail in Iowa, and snow
    somewhere else that shouldn't get snow this time of year.
    
    These are all just signs on the times, IMO...not part of any special
    earth-shattering prophesy.  Fact is, there was no damage from the
    earthquake (to speak of), though it was an unprecedented 400 miles
    underground and was felt 5000 miles away.  This is worth taking note
    of, but I still find this short of "ripping evil from the earth" (in
    whatever sense), or a natural DISASTER.
    
    Perhaps the prophesies weren't from God after all?  Or did something
    happen that I am not aware of?
    
    -steve 

  !<<< Note 476.188 by CSOA1::LEECH "Homer of Borg,prepare to be..MMM,beer" >>>
                              -< It's June 10... >-
  !  Perhaps the prophesies weren't from God after all?  Or did something
  !  happen that I am not aware of?
    
  	No Steve, you didn't miss anything, It was just men trying to play
    god again. teehee!  ooohhh, June 9th,....oooohhhhh
    
    Anybody elses have a special date we should take notice of? Hmmm?
    
    -PDM_Just_Say_No!

 Folks, I'm not sure that ridicule of those who were behind this 
 activity is really the thing to do.  There are plenty of Non-Christians
 around who will see to that and apply such ridicule to all  Christians.




 Jim

I wouldn't treat it as something to laugh at, either way.  Rather, we
should be aware that  God *is* well able to step into human affairs - He
did once before, resulting in (amongst other things) this conference... ;-}

The start of 2 Peter 3 warns us against dismissing the times lightly, and
says:
   "...you must understand that in the last days scoffers will come,
   scoffing and following their own evil desires.  They will say
    "Where is this 'coming' He promised?" Ever since our fathers died,
    everything goes on as it has since the beginning of creation..." 

That is directed at non-Christians, but I find it very sad when Christians
treat the promise - or warning, in that chapter... lightly. 

I know your comments weren't directed at the actual fulfillment, PDM, but
speaking of it is a solemn thing. 

About the 9th;  Too soon to say anything definitive yet.  The superficial 
understanding of something to impact all people - the sort of thing to 
satisfy the media - certainly not.  But then God doesn't rely on the media, 
He's aiming at people's hearts.

The most world-shattering event had the sun disappear for a few hours.  But 
most of the world wouldn't have realised that day, that something had 
happened to touch the eternity of every living person...

Significant decisions have been taken; laws passed which changed the 
*spiritual* course of a nation, with people scarcely noticing at the time. 
Later, some would be aware of the changing climate of society, the 
constraint over using the name of 'Christian', some other aspect which on 
paper could be dismissed as trivial, while it had become a burden on the 
hearts and in the lives of many or all...

Don't focus on THE DATE; focus on THE LORD.  
	- Just as you have been doing (I hope...!)

							Andrew

    
    
    False teachers and false peophets perpetuate scoffing from the secular
    community.  I firmly believe that the true Christians need to take a
    stand against these wolves in sheep's clothing.
    
    Dan
    

    How can we be so sure nothing happen ? Because we didn't read it in
    secular newspapers ? How can we be so sure that on June 9th,
    God hasn't announced something in heaven that is going to unfold over
    the course of a given period of time here on earth ?

     Remember those who laughed at Noah, and perhaps you won't be so
     self assured that because you haven't seen or heard anything,
     the June 9th prophecy isn't being fulfilled.

     I'm not so sure that there was any truth in the June 9th prophecy, 
     but I'm equally unsure that there wasn't any truth in it as well.

     Jim

� I firmly believe that the true Christians need to take a stand against 
� these wolves in sheep's clothing.

But by treating it as a matter for solemn evaluation, rather than by scoffing 
or humour.  We should not overstep the mark in either direction.

							Andrew

    A christian who professes God and Christ crucified and risen need not
    concern himself with such prohecies! In fact, the prophet and the
    prophecy become foolishness. God has revealed the truth and the Life on
    the heart of all people. That those that believe will have life eternal
    and those that do not, will die. - The Lord himself told us that his
    sheep know his voice and come when called. - The others, well, no
    matter how much prodding and Bible thumping you do will have no effect.
    
    Face it, you or I are going to save no one. Sure, live your OWN life to
    Christ and some will be intrigued to learn, but do not think for one
    second that by telling the world to be prepared that anything will
    change that is not in God's plan.
    
    To all those that thought they underwent a transformation yesterday. To
    you I say good. But I also say where was your faith? Will you need to
    be told again?! The forst time you came to christ was not enough?!
    
    >Leave the dead to bury the dead< - The June 9th prophecy was spoken by
    a dead person for dead people who need miracles and signs to believe.
    Oh ye of Little Faith! Wake UP! Search your own heart! The Lord said,
    "Be still and know I am God.!"
    
    The events of this world are unfolding just as God would have them. His
    Word is complete. There is no more 'PROPHECY' to be revealed. To those
    that look for signs, look first within your self.
    
    So who is going to jump on the next band wagon? You?!
    
    Furthermore. Andrew, it is not a matter of non-christian or christian.
    I tell you the truth, believers have as much right to ridicule and to
    laugh as does the non believer! More so, because they already have the
    truth which is Christ - they need nothing more! They BELIEVE already
    the promise of Christ and do not fear the furture or the events that
    must come to pass. And all events are within the will of God!
    
    As for the non believer, nothing is changed! Don't kid yourselves. The
    Lord's plan is His, not ours. We will not convert or save a single life
    in our life time. Only the Lord knows who his sheep are and he knows He
    is not going to lose one that has been put into his care.
    
    -PDM

    I'm not scoffing, nor ridiculing those who were given the June 9 
    prophesy.  I'm just stating that, in fact, there was no earth shattering
    event that non-believers can point to and say "God *does* exist" (at
    least some...we know that all will not do this- even during the great
    tribulation). 
    
    This was what I was expecting, at least with regards to the June 9
    prophecy being a REAL prophesy given by God, as interpreted by those
    who recieved it.
    
    Now, perhaps it is in the interpretation that we should look.  God does
    not give out messages that are not true, though the interpretation of
    what the message really is may be wrong.  And there is always the
    possibility that this prophesy was not from God.
    
    The deep rumbling of the earth on June 9 may merely be an echo of
    something happening on a much larger scale in the heavens.  A beginning
    of something?  Maybe, could be...but who knows for sure?  Speculation.
    
    Perhaps there will be a deep rumbling within our spirits as a new
    empowerment of the Holy Spirit, like that of the first church, will be
    given to us who are in the last days (if indeed these are the last
    days as the signs point to).  
    
    The earthquake was around the 8.0 mark, which makes it one of the most
    powerful earthquakes in recorded history.  It was over 400 miles deep
    and was felt 5000 miles away, which is unprecedented (on both counts).  
    Perhaps those looking for signs need not look further.  This could be a 
    sign, symbolism of what is to come...or even a precursor to something even
    bigger.  
    
    More speculation.
    
    I guess I look for signs, like many do...is this such a bad thing? 
    Does it show a lack of faith?  I don't think so.  I think it shows a
    a strong belief in Biblical prophesy, and an excitement towards its
    fulfillment.  Will a lack of signs affect my faith?  No.  Will the
    lack of an earth-shattering event/spiritual revelation (of the June 9
    prophesy) affect me negatively in my faith?  No.   Such things will not
    keep me from "being alert", either, and looking for the fulfillment of
    Biblical prophesy.  If anything, I pray harder to find the meaning of
    it all.
    
    
    -steve

     > As for the non believer, nothing is changed! Don't kid yourselves.
    >The Lord's plan is His, not ours. We will not convert or save a single
                                      ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    I am the vine and ye are the branches...   John 15
    
    And the branches must bear fruit.  How?  By abiding in the vine.  I
    happen to disagree with this statement without any clarification.  If
    we as Christians do not bear fruit, we are not abiding in the vine...
    
     
     
    

    Actually I believe it is both.  The grapevine is a prolific plant. 
    A single vine cna bear many grapes.  In the Old Testament, grapes
    symbolized Israel's fruitfulness in doing God's work on the earth.
    Psalms 80:8, Isaih 5:1-7.  In the Passover meal, the fruit of the vine
    symbolized God's goodness to his people.
    
    Christ is the vine and God is the husbandman who cares for the
    branches to make them fruitful.  The branches are all who claim to
    follow Christ.  The fruitful branches are true believers and the
    unproductive branches are those who make surperficial commitments and
    will be separated from the vine.  God is very clear the difference
    between the prunings, cutting back or severing from the vine.
    
    I believe the fruit is not only that of the Spirit as in Galatians 5,
    but also of bringing forth others to Christ.
    
    

Hi PDM,

I think you're missing the point somewhere along the line, or we're talking
at cross purposes.  No-one is saying that Christians *should* be relying
on, or affected by, warnings given to the world generally.  It is obvious,
that there are some Christians who are not living ready for the LORD's
return, and this may touch something to make them aware, but that is not
the primary purpose. 

The purpose is that God may be glorified, and all the world seen as sinful 
before Him, that in the judgement there is no defence except the blood of 
Jesus.  That none will have any cause to accuse God, but will see how His 
mercy was ignored by them...  

�    I tell you the truth, believers have as much right to ridicule and to
�    laugh as does the non believer!

Not so.  The sinner can ridicule what he does not understand.  It reduces 
him to the status of the fool in Psalm 14:1 / 53:1 / 92:6.  But for the 
Christian, the Name of the LORD is not one to be taken lightly.  If a 
prophecy is true, it is a matter for solemn consideration.  If it is not 
true, it is a matter for concern, not for foolish ridicule.  That should be 
out of character for the Christian.

            re. 197

    > The earthquake was around the 8.0 mark, which makes it one of the most
    > powerful earthquakes in recorded history.  It was over 400 miles deep
    > and was felt 5000 miles away, which is unprecedented (on both counts).  
    > Perhaps those looking for signs need not look further.  This could be a 
    > sign, symbolism of what is to come...or even a precursor to something even
    > bigger.  

    I'm not a geologist, but I can't help but believe a disturbance of this
    magnitude, while not immediately noticable, can only be the prelude to
    some major shifting in the near future.  I don't know how long this
    would take, but I would venture in less than a decade.  My brother in
    law who is a geologist still contends his property on the Arizona / New
    Mexico line will be beach front property some day.

    And to think we waste time worrying about our jobs and worldly stuff.

    Definitely a wake up call for me, who has been growing rapidly the last
    year or so spiritually.
    
    I would love to see some mighty acts of God, but I think those feelings
    are from the worldly "See I told you so, I was right" part of me, and
    not the spiritual side.

    Sparky

    Well, the 3 hours of darkness occured here in Canada, but it happened
    at night so it's hard to prove.
    
    Glenn

>    law who is a geologist still contends his property on the Arizona / New
>    Mexico line will be beach front property some day.
    
    this sounds reasonable.  My fellow Phoenicians tell me they want to buy
    land on the California border for the new beach when the big one hits. 
    I always tell them that since Phoenix is only 700' above SL, we'll be
    swimming too.

    Andrew,
      Thank you. Indeed we are crossing discussions. I must admit
    I am anyway. I do not disagree with what you are saying.
    
    I for one, who is laughing at the June 9th prophecy, (and admittedly
    was chuckling oh, somewhere around May whenever I first heard of it),
    am not taking the Lord lightly. I am exercising my right to test the
    spirit of the words spoken and cast them out. The Lord will do what He
    pleases, He needs no trumpets to announce His plans. - Just be ready.
    And as for the unsaved, again, no one will be saved that does not heed
    the call of the shepherd, and, none will be lost that follows the
    shepherd. It is that simple.
    
    I put to you, what of these people that made this prophecy? Will you
    follow what they say, ever again? What of those that jumped on the
    bandwagon? Do you not feel sorry for them? What of all the people that
    may have sold all they had awaiting the hour? Were they good stewards
    of what the Lord had giiven them?  Each of us is called to be
    responsible for ourself first and then to attend to the needs of
    others. For me, this translates to "No further prophecies needed,
    thank you very much. I have God's Word on it."
    
    -PDM
    
    ps. Not meaning to argue with you Andrew, but I do find prophecies such
        as "Rip the Evil out of this World" to be just a tinsy winsy bit
        queer.
    
    pps. Unless of course, that Earthquake some 400 miles deep last
         Wednesday was the releasing of the Evil One and all his minion. Oht
         oh now we are in for it!

Hi PDM,

� I put to you, what of these people that made this prophecy? Will you
� follow what they say, ever again? 

I do not consider that I 'followed' these people in any way.  The only 
difference to my life that their message made was in certain keystrokes 
entered to this conference.. ;-)

The aspect of their message which indicated that we should be constantly
ready for the LORD's return, active intervention, or such, is no more or 
less than everyday truth by whcih we should be living.

The aspect of their message which said that a particular effect was going 
to influence the U.S. on a particular day wasn't something that required 
any action beyond the faithfulness to the LORD that we should all live by.

I have heard plenty of prophecies which are more way out than this.  I 
rely, not on the word of men, but on the word of the LORD, and His witness 
in my heart.  My own heart needs to be continually tested in this respect 
also.

But I consider it unChrist-like to treat a weaker or disadvantaged brother
as a target for sarcasm or humour.

I am unaware of any factor in the messages that justified any such action 
as you describe - selling up, etc.  Had they implied such (as have earlier, 
and more man-centred prophecies), the caution against following man rather 
than hearing from the LORD directly would be needed.

� ps. Not meaning to argue with you Andrew, but I do find prophecies such
�     as "Rip the Evil out of this World" to be just a tinsy winsy bit queer.

I would not describe it as 'queer', so much as outside my experience of how 
the LORD deals with us, and outside my sense of His Spirit's communication. 
But when He uses someone, there are other factors to be taken into account. 
Like, how much of their own personality is flavouring the message (without 
it necessarily being totally invalidated).  Like the limitations of their 
usual communication and vocabulary.  If I recall correctly, the person who 
used that particular phrase checked himself at it - maybe a warning flag; I 
don't know.

PDM, the warning wasn't directed to me.  Perhaps you felt that I championed 
it disproportionately.  Perhaps I felt that such things are so easily 
scoffed at as to numb us to the reality of the LORD's active involvement in
the world.  Personally, I felt that Steve gave us the best input on this
one, some replies back, scripturally considered, without human cruelty. 
But from your input : 

� For me, this translates to "No further prophecies needed, thank you very 
� much. I have God's Word on it."

I have the impression that you don't believe that the LORD speaks to His
children.

Scripture is complete.  We are not disputing that.  The Bible is God's 
Word to all people for all time.  But we are still supposed to discern 
God's individual word to our hearts, to hear and recognise His voice, not 
only individually, but collectively. and act on it when it so requires.  
Were it not so, we would have no pators or missionaries for a start, as 
surely none would dare to take such a task on without being pretty sure 
that the caling was from the LORD.  Be ready, PDM.  Don't bother about what 
the LORD isn't saying - concentrate on hearing what He *is* saying!

						God bless
							Andrew

The Lord speaks to me in various ways.  On occasion, he has used me to speak to
someone else on His behalf, more often than not unknown to me.

God has purpose for everything, whether it is the active or permissive will
of God.  *ALL* things work together for good for them that love God.

  The October 22, 1992 people were expectant and hopeful.
  The 88 reasons the Lord will return in 1988 were also.
  The June 16th people are hopeful.

When Andrew speaks of the weaker or disadvantaged brother, we should consider
what repercussions punishment and rebuke can have.  Punishment for children
of God is always designed to improve and educate the believer, not just
to hurt them for the purpose of hurting them.  What does the Bible say about
restoring a weaker brother?

Galatians 6:1  Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are
spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself,
lest thou also be tempted.

Mark

    
    
    Let's keep within the context here.  I dont believe we are talking
    about a weaker brother, but of a false prophet.  I am tired of the
    secular scoffing at "christians".  Just watch Trinity Broadcasting one
    time.  They say some of the most ignorant things.  Then the whole of
    christianity gets lumped in with the wackos.  We are in the last days
    simple because of the crowd of false teachers and prophets out there.
    
     The "weaker brother" issue is one thing and in that I agree. But the
    false teachers and prophets, even Jesus had some alarming things to say
    about. 

Phil,

To proceed on a tangent, I notice a particular theme in your arguments which I
think deserves some discussion.

You say that we should be living every day as if it were the end.  That is
true.  You say that we should not be seeking for signs, at least as an
end.  That is also true.  You mention a lot of noble characteristics of the
attitude a perfected Christian should have, and they are good.

But I think you are tending to look at things in a binary way: either there are
very zealous Christians, such as you and I and people in this conference, who
are slaves of the Lord and follow Him daily with the fullness of their
strength, or there are unbelievers.

You neglect to consider that there are believers in various states of the
Christian walk who may be weak and need some prodding.  There are backsliddlen
Christians and others who have put the Lord aside.  The Lord loves them, too,
Phil, and I think that perhaps the signs are for them.  Because they are not
yet mature in their Christian walk, they may not be living according to these
ideals which you rightly hold up.  No, you're right, we shouldn't _need_ these
signs, but some _do_ need these signs, and our Lord loves them, too, and wants
to move them out of their complacency.  Some people need their faith
strengthened; some people, right or wrong, look for a sign from the Lord, and
not all of them are hard-hearted and destined for unbelief anyway.  And some
people need to be reminded that they should be living for the Lord every day.
Some people need to start thinking about spiritual things.  Even in the case of
prophecies gone sour, I know that for some people, this has caused them to
start thinking about the Christian faith again and prompted them to start
living it out more fully.  These things, fulfilled or unfulfilled, serve as an
invitation to the weak in faith to shake off their apathy.

The fact that shouldn't need these signs is no argument that they don't exist
or that God would not use them.

And for the mature Christian who does not "need" signs, when they occur they
nevertheless provide an encouragement that the time of the Lord is drawing
near.

Let's consider God's great mercy, even to those who are weak in fact and not
spiritual mature, who don't live up to the Christian ideals but who nonetheless
are not unbelievers.  I see these events as movements of God's mercy toward the
complacent.  Let us not be prideful in assuming that if we, the Spiritually
Mature do not need them, God would not deign to grant them for the sake of
those backsliding slimeballs.  Praise God that he is more merciful than we are!

Let's also consider that God promised signs by which we could tell that the
time was near, even if we couldn't tell the day or the hour.  He tells us not
to despise prophecy, and that in the last days God would pour out his spirit on
all men and there would be prophecies and dreams.  

Eric

    
    Eric,
    
    Thank you Eric, you touched on the intent I was epousing. Yes, I do not
    deny that there are those that need these prodings and prompting,
    but,...
    
    I begin to chuckle when I observe people that have strong confessions
    (or at least visible recognition of the Truth the Way and the Life),
    yet get wrapped up in these "prophecies". One person in this conference
    comes to mind.
    
    
    Andrew,
      Thank you, you made your point. Oh, an no, I do believe the Lord
    speaks to us and that His plan is made known to us. But for world
    wide prohpecy in which dates are stated, well, I think that is where
    we differ.
    I do however, strongly agree that Steve M. stated my thoughts well
    also. As for false prophets, - in the olden days they would be stoned!
    Today you are telling me we can not even chastise them?! Excommunicate
    them? Or leave them to learn what it means to mock the mystery of the Holy
    Spirit?
    Furthermore, I do not believe as do you that individuals will be privy
    to the plans of God. My current understanding is that the Lord will
    reveal His plans to all His children. How? When? By the signs of life
    on the Fig Tree. (symbolically speaking of course.)  All believers must
    take notice of the season and the signs that come with it. But as for
    any particular individual, single event (with a date attached), ah,...no.
    
    -PDM_Even_So,Come_Lord_Jesus,come.

    Eric,
    
    We are no longer under the old covenant (stoning).  Jesus said, "He who
    is without sin, let him cast the first stone".  God is love.  He loves
    us unconditionally.  It disturbs me that so many people are taken in (or 
    misguided), but we need to treat them with love and respect.
    
    The Christian life is a life of balance.  There are always going to be
    people that put more emphasis on the spectacular signs & wonders. 
    There is an expression that I think is very appropriate, "The main
    thing is to keep the main thing as the main thing".  We need to stay
    focused on maintaining an intimate walk with our Father.
    
    Bing
    
    
    

>    We are no longer under the old covenant (stoning).  Jesus said, "He who
>    is without sin, let him cast the first stone".  God is love.  He loves
>    us unconditionally.

Yes, but after Jesus said "He who is without sin, let him cast the first
stone" he immediately said to the woman "go and sin no more."

Sorry, but I have taken a vow to not let anyone get away with that particular
sound bite without pointing out "the rest of the story."

See the "Sound bite Christianity" topic.

/john

    >>Yes, but after Jesus said "He who is without sin, let him cast the
    >>first stone" he immediately said to the woman "go and sin no more."
    
    I had a feeling someone was going to come back with the "go and sin no
    more" to complete the phrase Jesus used.  The reason I didn't quote
    this part of the verse, was because it didn't apply to the folks who
    were casting the stones, it applied to the woman who the stones were
    going to be cast at.  If someone is using this verse to excuse their
    sin, then I would have quoted the last part of the verse.  I didn't try
    to excuse the actions of those giving the prophesy, I was saying that
    OUR response to them should not be condemnation, but love.
    
    I believe we (myself included) have a tendency to always try to apply
    scripture to others' lives, rather than applying it to my own life.  So
    when I read the scripture about "Husbands love your wives as Christ
    loved the Church.....& wifes submit to your husbands", I need to be
    listening to the part that applys to my and love my wife the way Christ
    loves the church.  I don't need to build up expectations of how my wife
    should meet my needs, I need to allow the Holy Spirit to work in her
    life and not be the Holy Spirit for her.  Its like listening to a
    sermon and nudging my spouse, rather than listening to what the Lord 
    has to say to me.
    
    The point I was originally trying to make is that we, as Christians,
    need to love one another (They will know us by our love for one
    another).  More often, we tend to shoot our wounded, rather that
    "gently restoring them to the faith".
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing
    
    

About signs and needing them, consider the signs God had more often given:

With Elijah, God sent but was not in the earthquake, wind, or fire.  He was
in the "still, small voice."  

With Jesus, He was born in a housing for livestock and who were the people
who got the spectacular display of Heavenly Christmas carols?  The lowly, 
shepherds, and but a few of them near Bethlehem.  The announcement of Jesus'
birth was in the Scriptures so that NON-Jews (Magi) came to worship!

With Samuel, God came and called him alone.

With Gideon, who ASKED TWICE FOR A SIGN, his "fleece" sign was granted.

Now let's consider some of the more spectacular events and their purpose:

Moses: lots of signs, put fear in the other nations (read: the Promised Land)
The purpose was to establish the people of Israel as Chosen (begun with 
Abraham - another quiet (or private) sign, by the way, was Isaac).
Read about the effect all this pyrotechnic/fabulously-mega-miracle display
had on the israelites: they grumbled and complained and whined.  They turned
their backon God numerous times.

Jesus: healed many, transformed elements, commanded weather.  The effect?
The ruling class wanted him dead.  Nine out of ten healed lepers went off
happy they'd been healed; one came back to thank the Lord.

In just about every occurrence, the private sign, the personal sign, the
quiet sign has had more personal, lasting, and changing impact on a person's
disposition towards God.

Beware of the spectacular sign.  Don't discount it, but don't grant it
the immediate Christian Biblical stamp of Approval either!  God does 
make the fleece wet and the ground dry, or the ground dry and the fleece
wet when His purpose, time, and will are at the center of our "putting out
the fleece."  

Signs are given good and bad exposure in Scripture, as I posted numbers of
replies ago (from the online Bible).  So the right or wrong of a sign depends
on its context.  A "sign" in and of itself is nothing.

An illustration I heard yesterday is pertinent here:

A concert violinist performed a work which the audience received well.
During the applause, he took his violin over to a chair and smashed it 
to pieces, the the shock of the audience.  He explained to the audience
that he bought that violin in a pawn shop for a few dollars.  He then
went to a case hidden from view and pulled out another violin.  "This
is my priceless Stratavarius."  And then he played the same work he played
on the "cheaper" violin.

The comment by all but the highly trained musical observer was that they could
tell very little difference if any.  The reason?  One instrument may produce
a better sound, but the quality of the music DEPENDS ON THE MUSICIAN playing
the instrument.

Mark

    Mark,
    
    Good note.
    
    Bing

>    	Do we be gentle to these 'prophets' or do we chastise them for
>    their childishness?  I do not have an answer for that one.  But I
>    certainly do not wish to hear anymore of this nonsense.

Gentle?  No.  Stoning?  No.  Correction?  Yes.  Restoration to "go and sin no
more?"  Yes.

I am reminded of a discussion we had some time ago about the Pastor who
has a moral failure, perhaps due to an adulterous relationship to which 
he succumbed.  On the one hand, there are those who want to run him out
of town on a rail, and on the other hand there are those who want to 
"forgive him" and reinstate his position as Pastor.  Both of these views
are the extreme and neither of them represent what should be done.

What should be done is to institute corrective action, which sometimes 
involves punishment or rebuke - but always with the eye towards restoration
and not retribution!  Correction may not include restoration of the duties
and responsibility as Pastor (or prohet as the case may be).  Restoration
may not include the office, but instead restoration to the body of 
believers, recognizing that we have all sinned and sin gives birth to
consequences (some of them dire).

Mark

    Just because somebody predicts something is going to happen and it 
    doesn't, doesn't mean that it's satanically inspired.

    People can be silly all on their own.

    Glenn

    Mark,
    
    I totally agree with .219.  James Dobson wrote a book about "tough
    love".  Showing love and compassion to someone is not just "live & let
    live".  
    
    I don't think it serves any purpose to laugh at or ridicule others
    when they are off base (I was responding to a couple of noters who were
    ridiculing others for believing the prophesies).  II Tim 2:2 says that
    "All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for
    reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness".  I believe
    we can point others in the right direction, without kicking them while
    their down.  As someone else mentioned, I believe Steve did a very good
    job of this (pointing out the phrophesies were spiritually off base).
    
    Bing

Hi PDM,

No, I am certainly not denying church discipline today.  What I am saying 
is that discipline should be applied in the church / eldership context, and 
that what is never appropriate is the ridicule I see many descending to.

Today is a very busy one for me - I've only just got into the conference, 
and it's 6:13 p.m. here, so I haven't time to address anything else here,
particularly your belief that God's revelation is general across all His 
children.  It is there for them to see, but many are so unwilling to admit 
to His very real involvement, that they will not even see the fig tree 
budding.  I have close experience of that approach.

I hope to get back in a few days time, as I'm out Tuesday / Wednesday.

					God bless
							Andrew

I'm torn.

On the one hand, Hinkle (and Crouch and frankly, nearly the entire TBN 
empire) has made a grevious error.  Focussing in solely on what Hinkle has 
said and the state of the world today, it is obvious that his 'prophecy' 
was not of G-d.

The question is not whether to stone the man, the question is *why* did G-d 
demand such of a false prophet?  Minimally, it seems clear that in His 
concern for His people; He does not want any to be led astray as if by some 
'word' of the L-rd that is not His.  Moreover, this is the Name of the L-rd 
we are talking about here.  Is the L-rd a liar?  Should the world view the 
prophet's message and determine that the G-d who gave it was incapable of 
giving a correct one?

I actually found myself saying "so much for June 9" as I heard the news
about the Hatian military government seeking the protection of some voodoo
'god' during any impending sanctions that may be placed against them - a 
fleshly, frustrated response on my part I'm sorry to say.

While my frustration is aimed at the one who falsely claimed to speak on
behalf of G-d; how will the non-believer's frustration be manifested when
such 'prophecies' don't come to pass?  Instead of "so much for June 9",
he'll likely say "so much for G-d".

This is terribly serious stuff and precisely why false prophets were dealt 
with so harshly.  In all honesty, Hinkle et al. should be grateful that the 
L-rd *didn't* take his life as he 'requested' in his sermon!

Shoot the wounded?  No.  Allow that kind of thing to be thought of as 
godly?  Also no.  Sweep it under the carpet?  Shout it from the housetops?
Rejoice at their falling?   No, No, and No.
    
I'm torn in that I want to ask G-d to be merciful to this man (and 
Crouch/TBN), while at the same time, I want to see the mouths of the false 
prophets closed (and TBN removed from the air) forever.

But perhaps this is not to be yet.  G-d is certainly able to protect His Name 
(giving me new desire to pray that His Name be kept holy....), in spite of 
the fact that many false prophets will arise...our mission is to trust Him
in spite of such 'prophecies'.
    
We must keep our focus on Him who is not only the Author, but also the 
Perfecter of our trust (and our trust should be the one thing that can't be 
shaken while everything else around us is...).  Many will do and say things, 
supposedly in His Name - and I believe we are to test every spirit, test 
every revelation and "hold on to what is good".

I will never listen to these men if they have a "word" and I'll say now 
that I hope all of you reading this will do likewise.  Sin, even (or perhaps 
*especially*) for a forgiven believer has tremendous consequences (and it's 
with no small amount of trepidation that I say this, aware of my own flesh 
patterns and wrong choices...).  Consider the believers Ananias and Saphira 
(who, I believe, we'll see in the hereafter, in spite of their sin-induced 
deaths).

I pray there will be repentence and a removal from any authority position -
that these men would humble themselves and get right with G-d.  If I can
follow on to a theme the L-rd Himself gave...it would be better for Hinkle
and Crouch (and frankly, all of us) to enter the Kingdom without
'credentials', than to have all the treasures of this world for a time -
only to spend eternity in hell.  He who humbles himself will be
exalted....he who exalts himself will be humbled. 

Beware wolves in sheep's clothing; test *everything*, absorb the true Word 
so you're not tossed about by every wind of 'doctrine'.

Sad all the way around on this one,

Steve

>I'm torn in that I want to ask G-d to be merciful to this man (and 
>Crouch/TBN), while at the same time, I want to see the mouths of the false 
>prophets closed (and TBN removed from the air) forever.
    
    AMEN!  
    
    I remember when this network was a blessing.  Now they continually
    pollute themselves to the point of being unscriptural.  The Faith
    movement support was more than obvious.  Now you can hear Paul Crouch
    and others embracing cults that don't accept the Trinity (how ironic
    given their name) in the name of Unity.  Chuck Colson's book "The Body"
    is one of the most dangerous books on the market today.
    
    The icing on the cake for me was R.W. Shembach stating we were already in
    the tribulation earlier this month.
    
    It seems TBN has been more interested in jumping on spiritual bandwagons 
    than sticking to sound Biblical doctrine.
    
    Mike

 Funny you should mention "The Body".  I borrowed a friend of mine's tape
 of that book and I found it rather troubling, and I haven't quite got to
 the second (of 2) tape yet.  I have to give it another listen.




 Jim

    Give Colson's recent track record by comprising with cults and
    accepting that $1M award from them, and writing "The Body," I have some
    serious problems with his ministry.

Clue me in, fellas, since I don't have cable and get my information
about this fromthis conference:

  What did these people say on June 10th?  Did they say anything?

  Do they intend to continue?

As in the case with a "fallen" Pastor, restoration to pastoral duty is not
impossible but certainly long and arduous.  And I think the office of 
prophet is even a bit different.

Yes, Paul, it concerns me when people speak for God.  And I want to think it
is foolishness, for the fool can be corrected.  Deliberate evil can be exposed,
too.  But which is it?

I've told this story before: A woman from Swaziland went to pray at an altar
at my father's church in New England.  We had a man who spoke Swazi who went
to pray with her in her native tongue.  A young man thought what he was seeing
and hearing was the gift of tongues and so he stood up and began to "interpret."
My father told the young man to sit down, but it took about three of these
firm reprimands until the young man left the service altogether.  My father
spoke to the missionary who was dealing with the Swali woman afterward and
asked about the "interpretation."  The response was that the man "wasn't even
close" to interpreting the contrition on this woman's heart; the young
man had no clue as to what this person was praying about.  This young man
likely left without ever knowing how foolish he had been, though I may just
not know whether there was follow up to see this young man to correct him.
I wish I knew the end of it, but there it is.  Does it nullify other 
experiences?  No. Does it cast doubt on the other experiences (and not just
the young man)?  You better believe it does.

What steps are being taken for correction of these people who presumed 
to prophesy?

Mark

Now what's going on with Colson?!?

    I haven't heard from Colson in quite a while now.  The last time I
    heard him was right after Clinton was elected president, when he was on
    a Focus on the Family show.  
    
    What are some of the areas where he's gotten off target?
    
    Bing

    Steve M. You continually nail the target. (I am not as eloquent as you,
    but you are certanly saying that which I think.)  I would ask people
    who profess to be believers in the L_rd to closely examine what these
    men have stated and what has transpired. Secondly, to those that dreamed
    dreams and to those that joined the bandwagon I would encourage you to
    re-examine yourself and to recognize your foolishness in light of June
    9th.
    
    It does not matter I suppose. No matter how many times we say read your
    Bible, test the spirit of those who speak G_d's word, ... there will
    always be someone who wants instant gratification, rapture or G_dly
    proof that He does exist, IS in control and HAS a plan of salvation.
    
    So what am I feeling,... 
    ANGER that there are those are in the spiritual spotlight and YET
          contaminate the Word of the Lord with profanity.
    SORROW for the little ones that do not YET know any better BECAUSE they
           have not the mind or desire to READ the Word themselves.
    FRUSTRATION - For I as would G_d want NONE to be lost, but that too is
                  part of the plan.
    
    HOPE that people who profess Christ would learn to trust G_d only and
    not men. Men make mistakes as well as read in their own desires to what
    G_d would offer.
    
    Of course I, as Eric correctly stated, am targeting ONLY those that
    profess belief in Christ. Now for those that do not believe or are
    fence sitters... This kind of stuff just makes us all look like fools.
    Who in their right mind would want to have a belief in a religion that
    from time to time has these hair brained pompus selfcentered
    individuals that cause riffs, arguments and scisms within what "they"
    see as a single belief. The last angnostic I spoke to could care less
    about the differences between a Protestant and a Catholic he looked
    apon all as fools who have to deal with these people that make
    prophecies that come to naught.
    
    THAT bothers me! I would much rather they do not say anything than they
    say something and have it come to naught. -Ya, ya I know the scripture
    that deals with not speaking that which the Lord commands us, but then
    that is a personal decision as is most stuff. Why some chose to shoot
    off their mouths and destroy credibility of anothers faith or potential
    walk is beyond me.
    
    -PDM
    
    ps. I am in agreement that we should not mock, but I purposefully took
        a strong stand against these self professed prohets to make a point
        of how foolish we are when we allow ourselves to believe that which
        we have failed to read for ourselves. Now I have said my peace, and
        will close the case of this June 9th thang. But I will be back to
        speak about the next foolish prophecy which is not Biblical, maybe
        by then I will be as eloquent and Steve M.   naahh probably not.

    I, and many others, took the possibility of June 9th seriously enough
    because it came from two faithful Christians who seemed to have 
    authenticlly documented independent experiences in receiving the date.
    
    According to Hinkle's understanding of what he received it was to be
    a spiritual experience of our sinfulness which was going to be like
    a warning. He used cataclysmic imagery which is supported by scriptural
    accounts of men trying to hide themselves from God and His Justice. 
    Just as Adam and Eve tried to hide from the Lord after they sinned, so
    too, will it be for many on the 'day of conscience'. It depends on ones
    interpretation and the degree of literalness that one assigns to
    Revelation to determine if Hinkle's prophecy was 'unscriptural' or not.
    Therefore, for some of us, it was not, and is not necessarily an
    unscriptural prophecy.
    
    The Griffis prophecy was more sketchy but his own understanding was
    that it would be an earthquake. Perhaps this did indeed happen and
    the unusual quake 400 miles beneath the surface of the earth on 
    June 8th [June 9th some other places in the world when it happened]
    might be the 'release pin' to later events. Nevertheless, since 
    earthquakes are certainly prophecized in scripture we cannot say that
    his prophecy was blatently unscriptural.
    
    What I observed among believers [common folk, not TV media] was a 
    balanced approach. The people I know were neither afraid nor frantic
    in their response and all have told me that they felt they have
    received a blessing through their prayerful response to this 
    possibility. All have said that it is a good idea to have this 
    expectancy every day.
    
    Many people, myself included, made extra efforts to gently approach
    the non-Christians and lukewarm members of our family and friends.
    I don't know anyone who did this that did not balance their remarks
    to modify their comments. I never said XXX was going to happen on
    June 9th. I said that two independent people have given prophecies
    for this date and although date prophecies are always questionable,
    it is good to be as spiritually prepared as possible. I also said 
    that there are increasing signs that a serious time is ahead, but
    this is my sense. I gave people some material and said they should 
    seek their own response, if any, through prayer.
    
    It sounds like some specific things were said on TBN that sounded like
    further prophecy [Russia will attack on that day, etc.]. Many things
    were passed along as being knowledgable when it was speculation.
    
    In this note file a number of us have shared spiritual experiences and
    dreams, etc.. NONE of us said that any of these were specifically tied
    to the June 9th date. Perhaps this was wrong to share *everything* but
    it has been exceedingly rare that there has been a suitable topic to
    share such experiences and it seemed that it was proper to let people
    see the range and nature of what has been received. The dreams,
    visions, and words given to others and expressed during this time
    might indeed be valid and prophetic, but not associated with the
    June 9th [non-]event. 
    
    Furthermore, if a person has received warnings from God and has done
    his or her best to discern them as being from God, then there is also
    a responsibility to share them with others. I'm sure Hinkle, Griffis
    and the most people try their best to prayerfully discern such
    experiences, both those given to us and those we hear from others.
    
    We need to learn from these mistakes. I don't think the proper
    response is to ignore all private revelation [prophecy] but to 
    be more prayerful in discerning it properly both with scripture and
    in the way we respond interiorly. Had I spent more time in prayer and
    asking God directly about this one perhaps it would not have gone
    further for me.
    
    Nevertheless, I felt blessed through all the activities I DID do
    related to this, including the noting and sharing here in CHRISTIAN.
    I believe God is already bringing good from this experience for me
    and for others in my life. Scoffers and the evil one might have a 
    good scoff, but they have received the 'cheap thrill' while I and
    others who DID take this with some seriousness have received a 
    blessing! 
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary
     

    Mary,
    
    Thanks for .231; it's interesting to see how others view this
    situation.
    
    I think one of the main issues for me (speaking about Hinkle now) is
    how he was *sure* (without testing) that the voice he heard was that of
    G-d, how he proclaimed that on the 9th a certain Scripture would be
    fulfilled, and how he proclaimed to be speaking on G-d's behalf when
    in fact (in retrospect) we can see he wasn't (evil has not been ripped
    out of the world, no matter how hard Hinkle et al. backpedal or
    insinuate that a hidden heavenly process was begun on that date, etc.).
    
    You make a good point in that we shouldn't shun "private revelation";
    however, the Bible is clear that such should be tested and moreover,
    that we should shun one who presumes to speak on the L-rd's behalf
    without the L-rd actually giving him the words.
    
    And yes - we all need to learn from this mistake.
    
    Sad and difficult lesson....
    
    Steve

    what surprised everyone to is that Hinkle is fairly quiet and
    straight-laced compared to the rest of the TBN cast of characters.

    What has been his reaction to the lack of activity around his date?
    
    anybody know?

From America Online:

Subj:  John Hinkle's Followup
Date:  94-06-22 23:17:58 EDT
From:  Alert1844

FURTHER MESSAGE FROM JOHN J. HINKLE CONCERNING 6/9/94

Christ Church, 635 South Manhattan Place, P O Box 75275, Los Angeles, 
CA  90075

June 15, 1994

Dear Friends:

	I want to share with you more information concerning the 
message that the Lord gave me that "ON THURSDAY, JUNE 9TH, I WILL 
RIP THE EVIL OUT OF THIS WORLD," and God has moved mightily to 
bring forth His promise.
	Let me share with you what the Lord has given me and made 
evident in the world.  First, let me answer the question that is frequently 
asked, "Did you really hear the voice of God?"  The answer is yes, there 
was no possible way for His glorious voice to be misunderstood.  Every 
word He spoke and the Scriptures He gave me will be fulfilled and in fact 
are being fulfilled even as I write this.
	Many others received the confirmation of June 9th, as well as 
the month of June itself, for a great spiritual turning point in this world.  
On June 8th and 9th tens of thousands of people in churches, prayer 
meetings, and homes all over the world were gathered together in prayer 
for one purpose, and that was to see God's Word fulfilled in our lives and 
in the world.
	Many of us expected the outer, more powerful demonstration of 
His glory to take place at once, and at first myself and the others were 
very disappointed it did not take place in the way we expected.  It did 
begin, and is continuing to take place, but it happened in the spiritual 
realm first.  Great numbers of people were physically healed and blessed 
as we all prayed together.  Lives were changed, broken homes and broken 
relationships were being restored.  Pastors in churches have reported the 
greatest outpouring of God's Presence and Glory in their own lives and 
services that they have ever known.
	At first I was disappointed that the great manifestation of His 
healing glory did not come upon everyone as I expected it, but as I 
sought the Lord with all my heart, humbly asking Him about this, He told 
me that first the spiritual darkness had to be ripped out of the world so 
that all people who turn to Him would have easy access to His great 
loving heart and that He could welcome them home to Himself in a great 
and a more wonderful way.  
	In my heart and soul He gave me this message, "If I had given 
the people the outer manifestation of healings and power first, they would 
have accepted my gift and gone back into the world they knew before to 
remain there until another need arose.  But the world they knew before 
under the bondage of darkness is all being changed so that my new 
Kingdom of Heaven that I have prepared for them will be their new home 
free of the old of fear and darkness.  The old world will get darker, but my 
new world will become brighter and brighter in the hearts and lives of all 
those who believe."
	On Thursday, June 9th, at zero hour plus 33 minutes and 16 
seconds Greenwich time, the greatest earthquake and the most unusual 
happened four hundred miles deep in the earth under Bolivia.  It measured 
some 8 plus and shook two continents, North and South America, yet 
miraculously not one person was hurt.  Science has no explanation for 
this quake deep in the earth.  I believe that it was the beginning of God 
showing us His power and authority that will overcome the evil just as 
He said He would.
	As Isaiah 25 says in verse 6, that He has prepared the great feast 
on the mountain.  Yes, our Lord has prepared the new life and the glory 
for all who believe, and who are going to believe very soon, and He has, 
as the next verse says, taken away the veil that covers all peoples and all 
nations, and I know that very soon He will come in the power of His Spirit 
and Life into the hearts and souls of every believer, and as it says, "God 
will wipe away all tears from all faces, and the reproach of His people He 
will take away from all the earth; for the Lord has spoken."
	I know in my heart we are on the way to the greatest fulfillment of 
God's love for mankind and His glory in the world that it has ever known, 
and it is in the process of taking place right before our eyes and in our 
hearts just as He said it would.  Praise God for the victory that we have in 
Jesus Christ our Lord!
	Colosians 1:13  "He has delivered us from the dominion of 
darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son."

God blesss you always, In Christ's Name, (signed) John J. Hinkle, Minister

    I admit that when the news of the earthquake was reported, my left
    eyebrow raised a bit.  However, I'm still in a wait and see attitude.
    
    Natural and supernatural (unusual quake, if supernatural) phenomena
    can be performed by either side.  It still comes back to "how do we
    know?" 
    
    Mary, do you buy Hinkle's address for yourself?
    
    Mark

    I think Hinkle is grasping.  His "evidence" doesn't support the theme
    of his revelation.
    
    meanwhile, Jan Crouch is telling us that angels are taking evil people
    out of the world.  Sort of a rapture for the unsaved if you will.  
    
    I think all these people should just give it up, admit they were wrong,
    and apologize to God's people before they deceive anymore believers.
    
    Mike

    re: .236
    
    Mark,
    
        I know from my own experiences of hearing God, I often initially
    embrace a very literal meaning to the words or visions only to find
    out that the Lord has meant otherwise. As I meditate on what has been
    given I find the truth; it is only then that I can see the Lord's
    fulfillment. Also, I know there is a tendency to expect things to
    happen in a time period that I, a human, consider proper whereas God's
    timing is different. I am still finding insights in things the Lord
    has revealed to me years ago and I have come to expect that valid
    prophecy must have a spiritual dimension and that usually our 
    understanding takes time to comprehend God's meaning.
    
        After June 9th, I thought, 'gee, I should have known....Hinkle
    prophecized a spiritual event which Griffis prophecized an earthquake,
    a physical event.....yet I did not see this.' Therefore, I thought it
    must have been false. However, I am more neutral on it now. 
    
        First of all, it is possible that the Griffis prophecy was a 'sign'
    given in support of the Hinkle spiritual prophecy which is unfolding.
    It was the physical sign 'confirming' the spiritual event. [I am not
    saying this IS what happened, but it is something that I've pondered
    to much spiritual benefit.] The nature of the earthquake was very
    unusual, not a 'run of the mill' quake.
    
        I know of many people who approached June 9th in a very prayerful
    and positive way without any fear or paranoia. These people were 
    initially unsettled by what seemed to be a non-event, but they have
    also found continuing blessings in their lives. I am very willing,
    personally, to claim this as a grace from God! 
    
        I am neither trying to force-fit a fulfillment of the June 9th
    prophecies or to be like some who have been almost rabid with ridicule,
    so as to put distance between their own initial acceptance of the
    prophecies. [I've mainly seen this elsewhere; one person in particular
    on AOL was a great advocate and is now almost paranoid about any
    prophecy.]
    
        God unmasks evil; that is, He exposes it and therefore we see it
    in the light of God's goodness and thereby choose to reject or embrace
    it. I think this illumination might come over a period of time;
    therefore, as some words I received in April indicate, 'the time of
    separation is near'. That is, we are being called to choose and take
    a stand for God or against Him. I know this is eternal in every age,
    but we may be entering a particular fulfillment now. 
    
        I choose to be mindful of these prophecies and to refrain from
    making a final judgement on them but to allow the Holy Spirit to 
    continue to lead me to understanding or to let June 9th drop away.
    It never was a fundamental or central point in my Christianity!
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary

    One of my favorite stories concerning the reception of private
    revelation [post-apostolic age prophecy] concerns St. Francis of
    Assisi.
    
    Francis was feeling a call on his life by God, but it took a long
    time for Francis to discern and understand. One day he was in
    prayer before the crucifix in a church when Francis heard God 
    speaking to him. God said, "Francis, go rebuild my church."
    
    Francis wondered what this meant, but he observed that many of
    the churches in the area of Assisi were in really shabby state, some
    with missing or crumbling walls. He thought God wanted him to repair
    these buildings so he set out to do this task. 
    
    He worked every day into the evening gathering materials and working
    by himself with great joy in this service to the Lord. As he did this
    others were inspired by his love and dedication and other men began
    to join him in rebuilding these ruined churches. Many of these men
    became Francis's first 'Franciscans'.
    
    Eventually Francis and the others began to see God's words in a more
    glorious spiritual meaning and he understood that God was really
    calling for a *spiritual* renewal of the church. St. Francis and
    his followers lived the gospel life of Christ so completely that
    his witness influenced men and women throughout his time and space
    and into the future to this day. His witness chastened popes and
    moved the heart of pagan Sultan in control of the Holy Lands. 
    
    [The Sultan allowed the Franciscans to become caretakers of the 
    Christian shrines in the Holy Land due to Francis' courageous attempts 
    to evangelize the Sultan in the face of certain death; to this day it 
    is the Franciscans who continue this ministry of the shrines. This
    is further ironic because as a young man Francis wanted to participate
    in the Crusades to free these very shrines by force in the Name of
    God. Instead, God worked through Francis' evangelical and peaceful
    witness to accomplish that which armies were unable to do!]
    
    I just thought this was a good story concerning the discernment of
    God's words to us and His Will.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    Mary  
    Secular Franciscan
    
    
    
    

Acts 5:38  And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them
alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
 39  But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even
to fight against God.

re.242


>   	It was necessary that Mr. Hinkle spoke his words and it was
>    necessary that all of this discussion come to pass for reasons that are
>    far beyond our present comprehension. 

	This case from beginning to end and all the discussion in between did at
least one thing. It exposed our spiritual condition. Mr.H may have just made a
mistake. But what about us? 

	"And he does great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of
heaven to the earth before men. And he deceives those who dwell on the earth
because of the signs which he was given to do before the beast, who had the
stroke of the sword and lived"  Revelation 13: 13-14

	"For false Christs and false prophets shall arise and shall show great
signs and wonders so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. Behold, I
have told you beforehand." Matthew 24:24-25

	Signs, wonders, supernatural manifestations in the sky, people rising
from the dead, these type of things characterize the end times. These events
will deceive those who dwell on the earth and even the elect will be lead
astray. The Lord specifically warns us against these things. "Behold, I have
told you beforehand". Satan/Antichrist will employ these techniques to deceive
us. He wants to lead you astray as he will lead many astray. We know the Lord is
returning soon, maybe today. Every normal christian understands this and senses
this in their spirit. I believe this, many of you also believe this. Therefore,
we should reject all such peculiarities such as signs and wonders. Signs and
wonders will increase but we should not be affected by them, rather we should
cry out the more "Come Lord Jesus!".
	Many were disappointed and many others scoffed on June 10th. What would
have been your response if something spectacular had occurred on June 9th? Would
you then have been led astray? Is it the supernatural manifestation that we want
to be convinced by? We hold the misconception that if a prophet is false his
prophecy will not come to pass. Not always so, for "false prophets shall arise
and shall show great signs and wonders". I am much less concerned about Mr.H now
that his speaking did not come to pass. God was merciful to him. I think he was
well meaning, he just got a little excited and over extended his boundry.
However, I am concerned that some among us will be lead astray the next go
around when the next sign comes to pass. 

	Therefore, I have a prophecy: In the last days, many false prophets will
arise and they will show great signs and wonders. The things they say and
demonstrate will deceive many Christians. These christians will be carried off
by these supernatural and miraculous events. They will think that they are
following God but will have become ensnared by Satan. Do not think I am speaking
only to you. I pray that God is merciful to me as well and will become my
discernment in these perilous times. 

May we all understand His words and His warnings concerning this matter.


Ace

	

.243 Ace

Thanks, Ace.  Excellent.

    re: .243 Ace
    
    I can certainly see your point that anyone seeing spectacular things
    might be misled if they are so slothful as to accept them blindly
    without discerning the spirits. [1 John] 
    
    I don't think it is scriptural to say that all signs and wonders will
    be from the evil one, which you do imply in your note.
    
    Check out the supernatural powers God will give the 2 witnesses!
    REV 11:3-7. Also, God will do many things in the form of cataclysmic
    and heavenly disturbances as signs for the people to repent and return
    to God. 
    
    The antichrist will do 'miraculous' and horrific things but he will
    do it to support his own claim of being the messiah, of being God.
    It will be to intimidate or lure others to his power over creation
    and he will make it clear that he is the one doing it. As in the
    garden of Eden, he will likely say we can have such power and control
    also. 
    
    It is clear in Rev 13 that the actions of the two beasts are 
    blasphemous of God; the people of the world ignore the blasphemies
    are are enthralled by the power and authority that the beast does
    in his own name or that the second beast does to promote the
    first beast. 
    
    The blasphemy is that the beast's themselves are gods and have
    control over creation. It is like Jesus' temptation in the desert;
    Satan comes and makes it seem like Satan has power and control
    over life and creation. Jesus knows it is a deception and a 
    blasphemy and rebukes his deceptions. 
    
    The true prophets point to God and his power, presence and glory;
    they say turn to the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The two witnesses
    act in the Name of God, not as gods. 
    
    Furthermore, God Himself in Revelation does mighty works such as the
    darkening of the sun and the moving of the heavens. We do not know
    for certain, but some of the visions of Revelation might also be
    fulfilled in a mystical way as a sign or wonder. [Rev 12, Rev 21]
    
    When Jesus says there will be false prophets and false messiahs,
    he seems to mean exactly that; the false prophets point to the
    false messiahs and the false messiahs point to themselves and call
    themselves God/Messiah. Even in the Old Testament, the false prophets
    were the ones who prophecized in the name of the pagan idols, calling
    them god.
    
    Yet the Epistles points to the gift of prophecy and says that the
    Holy Spirit calls some to be prophets. In 1 John we are told not
    to stifle the Holy Spirit in this regard, but to test the spirit
    and retain what is good.
    
    Those who only look at the signs and wonders without evaluating
    the message of the prophet in light of the Gospel of Christ and the
    teachings of His Church are poised to eventually be swept away by
    the deceptions that clearly are to come and, indeed, are with us
    today. 
    
    We should do EXACTLY as scripture tells us, which is to discern
    the spirits;; to go overboard by rejecting all prophecy or signs
    and wonders is not what God intends according to scripture and
    therefore it is not God's Will for the faithful either.
    
    Pray for the gifts of the Holy Spirit, including discernment!
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary

    Also, scripture says that the faithful disciples of Jesus Christ
    will do all that Jesus did in the Name of Jesus and these will
    be signs of the Authority of Jesus Christ. 
    
    Mary

Mary,
  As I came in to work this morning, I had the Gospel of Matthew playing 
on my cassette deck.  The parable of the soils came on.  It is a VERY familiar
passage, and therein lies the danger with me sometimes because I tend to 
think I've understood it.  But I have found that I do need a refresher,
or a reminder, of how the passage applies to me today.
  We all want to think of ourselves as the seed in the good soil.  And we 
go about ensuring that we (a) understand it, (b) have root so that when
trouble comes we can withstand it, and  (c) do not have our fruit choked
by cares or wealth.  Very familiar territory.
  But what struck me this morning was this:

Matthew 13:20  But he that received the seed into stony places, the same 
is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;

  Here and in the other passages, the seed are those that HEAR THE WORD *AND*
RECEIVE IT.  I used to think, "okay, so if the soils are equal, then one
quarter of all seed will fall on good soil; three quarters lost."  This
is much worse because these are people who hear and receive the word.

  I believe Ace's warning to be heeded is that false Christs and false prophets
will do things to lead some astray, and some of it will be so convincing that
the elect are in danger of being lulled into it.  You are also correct to 
say that we should discern, but given these dire warnings of Christ, discernment
will likely not come easily to most people, and may even fail those who
place too much sotck in their gift of discernment.  The parable of the soils
is about those who hear and receive the word, not those who are pagan or
heathen.  *We* need to take care that *we* who have heard the word and
have received it joyfully are not fallen on stony, hard, or corrupt soil.

  If we go too far in seeming as if all signs, wonders, and prophecies
are rejected, I don't think this is the message to be conveyed.  But,
neither do we want to seem to jump on every bandwagon that offers these
things because good religious, even Christian people have claimed a word
from the Lord.  

MArk

	RE: .245

	Thanks for that note Mary, I appreciated it!

	Karen

    re: .247
    
    Mark, I have long understood us to be the soils and God's Word the
    seeds. God scatters the seeds everywhere, not just to those called
    Christians. Receptivity to the Word of God depends on our level of
    pridefulness; the hardened soil is like the hardened heart or the
    one who has made a god of themself, needing no other God. Certainly
    some Christians who are of the most 'in name only' variety might
    fit this category, but I think the parable fits those who have no
    receptivity to God and His Word at all.
    
    God created us to know, love and serve Him in this life and to be
    happy with Him in the next. The other soils, the ones other than the
    good soil have neglected to place much regard on the things of God,
    the seed, the Word. They allow the things of the world [the weeds]
    to choke the seedlings or they do not prepare themselves through
    humility and obedience so that the seeds can take good roots.
    
    It is right that God would expect us to be like the good soil and
    this means that we should be seeking the Word and all the grace of
    God to grow in sanctity. The Holy Spirit sanctifies us by nurturing
    us through the Gifts of the Spirit. As we use these gifts we grow
    in the Spirit and produce the Fruits of the Spirit.
    
    Discernment is sort of the result of the use of the gifts of the
    Holy Spirit. We need Understanding and a zeal for the things of the
    Lord and His Word in order to discern. If one values the things and
    the 'wisdom' of the world more than the things of God then one
    has not properly discerned their own existance, for one thing! One
    becomes one of the poor soils. 
    
    God speaks to us all the time in many differnt ways, not just through
    scripture, although it is absolutly true that God will never go against
    His Word. Do we say to God, "Stop speaking to me because I'm not
    up to discerning your Will?" Do we say, "Stop giving us prophetic
    words because then we have to choose and we might choose wrong?"
    No. We must recognize that we need the sanctification of the Holy
    Spirit and God's Wisdom and to ask God for it. We must cooperate
    with the Holy Spirit and pray for our sanctification so as to
    have discernment.
    
    God is calling us to become 'elders' in our Christian communities
    and families and to be wise enough to seek our wise elders among us
    now as needed. 
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary 
    
    

>Matthew 13:20  But he that received the seed into stony places, the same 
>is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
>
>  Here and in the other passages, the seed are those that HEAR THE WORD *AND*
>RECEIVE IT. 

Correcting myself:  I was mixing seeds of Matthew 13.  It is not the seed
that hears and received, but he that received the seed into stony places.

I was mixing this with the wheat and tares parable which is later on in the
chapter:

 37  He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son
of man;
 38  The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
 39  The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the
world; and the reapers are the angels.

  Here the seeds are people, while in the other parable the soils was the
people on whom the seeds of the gospel are scattered.

Sorry for any mix-up I may have caused.

Mark

    re: .250
    
    Keeps us on our toes!

    In a manner that would make Charles Taze Russell proud, Hinkle is
    using the exact same method to justify his false prophecy.  Russell is
    the one who incorrectly prophecied the rapture for JW's in 1914.  He
    called it a "spiritual" fulfillment rather than a "physical"
    fulfillment.  Hinkle is using the same excuse saying the fulfillment
    couldn't be seen with human eyes.  He did point to the earthquake under
    South American as a fulfillment as well, but he never prophecied a
    "shaking."  
    
    I've read reports on his sermon of June 12th at his church.  They state
    you could hear a pin drop during the service!  At one point Hinkle
    asked the congregation for a reaction by asking for an "Amen!"  People 
    were obviously dumbfounded as evidenced by the many who left the church 
    afterwards.  Hinkle will probably start the next cult with those that 
    decide to stay. ;-)
    
    Meanwhile, no apology has been issued by Hinkle or TBN who hyped up
    this prophecy during their annual beg-a-thon(tm).  TBN has been strangely 
    silent on the false prophecy.
    
    Mike