Conference yukon::christian_v7

    This brings to mind a situation which I have been thinking about.
    I'm not sure if you'll agree that it belongs here, but I don't know
    where else to put it.
    
    Good friends of mine recently became christians.  They have been
    attending a baptist church in central MA.  A woman that my friend used
    to work with is also attending this church with her fiance.  They are
    to be married this summer, however, they have been living together for
    1 - 2 years.
    
    I am not saying the engaged couple is not 'saved', however, one would
    think that if they are, they would not be living in sin!  Secondly, I
    wonder if the church knows of their living arrangements and is looking
    the other way (I would find it hard for a baptist [or any true church] 
    to do this.)  But, if this is the case, I am concerned about the 
    doctrine they are teaching there, as my friends are 'baby' christians.  
    It is so important to have a strong foundation to build on.
    
    If the church they are attending is 'off' in their teaching, I feel
    it's my responsibility to (1) find out for sure and (2) if so, tell my
    friends.  I know they have been enjoying going there, so it would be a
    touchy subject.
    
    Thanks for any advice.
    
    Karen
    
    

RE:                      <<< Note 461.3 by POWDML::MOSSEY >>>
                         -< sheep in wolves clothes? >-

       
   > Good friends of mine recently became christians.  They have been
   > attending a baptist church in central MA.  A woman that my friend used
   > to work with is also attending this church with her fiance.  They are
   > to be married this summer, however, they have been living together for
   > 1 - 2 years.
    
   > I am not saying the engaged couple is not 'saved', however, one would
   > think that if they are, they would not be living in sin!  Secondly, I
   > wonder if the church knows of their living arrangements and is looking
   > the other way (I would find it hard for a baptist [or any true church] 
   > to do this.)  But, if this is the case, I am concerned about the 
   > doctrine they are teaching there, as my friends are 'baby' christians.  
   > It is so important to have a strong foundation to build on.
    

   
     My pastor likes to say "we catch the fish for the Lord, and he'll do
     the cleaning"..that's not to say that we shouldn't admonish (carefully)
     folks, but we can also scare people off, particularly new Christians..
     I knew of a couple who attended a church one time (they were living 
     together) and were subsequently visited by the pastor and they were 
     saved...as soon as they lifted their heads the pastor said "Now, son,
     you need to get a good Christian haircut and stop living together right
     now"...those folks, to the best of my knowledge, never set foot in a church
     again.


     Surely it bothers us when we see this happening, and clearly it is not
     Biblical...but, I'd be careful how it is handled.  Pray for them, and I'm
     sure the pastor is dealing with it in one way or other..



    >If the church they are attending is 'off' in their teaching, I feel
    >it's my responsibility to (1) find out for sure and (2) if so, tell my
    >friends.  I know they have been enjoying going there, so it would be a
    >touchy subject.
    
    
     I can't imagine a Baptist church being off in their teaching :-) so I'm
     sure they are aware of what is going on.  




 Jim    
    

    
    
    Thanks, Jim.
    
    As with most everything else - balance is needed.  This is what I'm
    concerned about - walking the fine line to correct, without 'scaring'
    them off.  I'm not saying it's my place to correct, just saying it
    needs to be done at some point and time by someone.
    
    I have a reputation as a "heavy-hitter" :-)
    
    Karen

    
>    I can't imagine a Baptist church being off in their teaching :-) so I'm
>    sure they are aware of what is going on.
    
    glad you put the smiley in!
    
    (FWIW, I was born and raised Baptist)
    
    Karen - 
    I'd say don't take anything for granted.
    
    How would you check the church out for yourself? (ie, you were going
    there and weren't sure of what was being taught) Would you listen and
    take notes on what was said, and then ask questions later? Perhaps
    something got misunderstood and was taken out of context.  How they respond
    to questions would also be an indication of where they (the leadership) are.
    I didn't take it that far, there are some things that aren't acceptable
    to me...
    (and I think you know everything I've said:-)

re.1

	Hi Karen,

	I think your sense is right on. 

	Not addressing the matter is bad for them, bad for the young people in
the assembly, bad for the whole assembly. A little leaven leavens the whole
lump. Purge out the leaven.

	Perhaps they would appreciate it if someone who cared enough for them
would kindly show them the teaching of the Bible. Given a chance to repent and
right the situation will make them a whole lot healthier and happier when they
finally tie the knot. Otherwise, a cloud may hang over their entire future
together (or apart).

	It's best to follow the biblical teaching and the uncomfortableness in
your spirit affirms it.

Regards,
Ace

    Just what *is* a good Christain haircut, anyway?  8^)  

    Bald.

With Ace here....

By living in conflict with God's law, this couple are (presumably
unwittingly) laying the sort of foundation which will undermine aspects of
their marriage, maybe later in life.  The church is responsible in this 
respect, but the delicacy needed in handling this is such that some church 
leaders would shirk the duty.  It doesn't need to be heavy handed, as in 
the case that Jim mentioned, but it does need to be done as soon as 
possible, or they will 'find out' from a source which leaves them in an 
embarrassingly compromised position.

From the church perspective, the pastor should be in a position to suggest 
that some basic / simple Biblical teaching is needed to help them in their 
new-found faith / walk (this should be done in any case, even if there 
were no other problem).  It should cover the basic areas of salvation - 
	� What has happened (delivered from the trap of sin, to live in 
	  righteousness - the need to resist temptations which still exist...)
	� Who I am in Christ (enthroned on high, as we live in humility before
	  Him)
	� Where I go from here (sanctification progression through life)
	� How I should live (examination of christian character and behaviour)

etc etc, as far as the pastor feels the ability or need to instruct.

The last item of course includes basic morality - inside and outside 
marriage; sexuality as bestowed by God, the destructive nature of 
fornication. etc etc.

This should be bathed in prayer, and the Word should be allowed to expose 
the couple's situation to their hearts.  Because of the circumstances, it 
may be that this part of the course would be given a high priority.

Above all, they need compassion and tenderness, because the realisation can 
be traumatic.  However, if the LORD has truly worked in their hearts (as is 
not at all unlikely), He will prepare them to recognise and accept what the 
situation is.  Bear in mind that they *will* find out one day, and the 
later it is, the more traumatic 
	� Being at more of a distance from the special time near conversion
	� Realising the length of time that 'everyone except themselves' 
	  were aware that they were in a state that needed correction, 
	  but no-one cared deeply enough to spare them the continuing shame.
 - that sort of pain can break friendships and make them ashamed to return 
to the church - even if they manage to go to another one, it can cause 
immense damage.

For you, the situation is  a bit more difficult, because you haven't the 
natural responsibility position of pastor.  I would suggest that you maybe 
approach the pastor, and ask if any specific teaching is planned for the 
couple, 'as they are personal friends'.  Be careful about mentioning their 
cohabitation with [lack of] marital state, as if the pastor is really not 
able to handle the situation, he may not only react negatively towards any
suggestion that he should do something; he may give damaging advice to the
couple, telling them to 'ignore judgemental people', actually warning them
off your careful concern.  Take it delicately, as if prepared to accept 
whatever the pastor says, so that he does not feel confronted.  Time enough 
to address the root problem here when yuor friends specific case is taken 
care of.  They may not be the only ones in this position in the church; the 
pastor may have turned a blind eye on the basis that 'they're getting 
married anyway soon'.

If the pastor is not going to address the situation, or if there's no-one
in a better position who is ready to accepot the responsibility, you need
to pray very pointedly for the right words, the right time, the right
spirit in both you and the couple, for you to raise the topic.  We'll be 
praying with you, of course....  

You need to have the right verses to hand, not to bombard them, but to give
answers as their awareness unfolds.  Even if they find it hard to accept
stright off, they will ultimately love you much for caring for them enough
to do bear the embarrassment and pain of reaching out to them. You need to
let it show that you love them more than the situation; that it is a minor
thing compared to their eternity, and their peace and joy in the LORD, but
that ensuring that everything is 'in order' removes even unrecognised
obstacles from their spiritual growth; that same peace and joy, and the 
depth of their relationship together, which is goven by the LORD...

Enough.  I run on....  And will be praying.  Just to clarify; is it the
friends of your particular friends who are involved? - which may put you
out of reach for the above, and could change the position a little?  

Will be praying.

						God bless 
							Andrew

 I hope my .2 in this string wasn't indicating that my pastor condones
 such activity..he most certainly doesn't.  He feels it should be handled
 carefully.  The needs to balance the scripture, the testimony of the church
 and the delicacy of the new lives in Christ come in to play.




 Jim

    
    To clarify the situation:
    
    The people in this situation (living together, not married) is a woman
    that my friend (who recently accepted Christ) used to work with and is
    friendly with.  These people - I'll call them Jane and Dick - have not 
    been attending this church very long (6 months?) but are planning to 
    be married there this summer.  Again, I'm not sure if the pastor is
    even aware they live together, but after this amount of time, he should
    be.
    
    What makes this a delicate situation further, is that our friends (new
    christians) also lived together before they married, so they may not
    see a problem with this. :-( 
    
    Hence, my concern for the doctrine being taught there....
    
    Thanks for your words of wisdom, Andrew.
    
    Karen

      Hi,
    
        Ezekiel talks a lot about shephards who dirtied the water
        and goes on to talk about a time when God's sheep are fed
        with pure streams and good pastures.
    
        I think a big responsibility is to feed the sheep with 
        the gospel and to feed them with as fresh a gospel as possible.
    
        I think that we feed the sheep with dirty water these days,
        but prophecy looks forward to a change.
    
                                                     Tony

 What do you mean "fresh gospel"?




 Jim

� What do you mean "fresh gospel"?

Sola Scriptura.  Like you get in B**t**t churches

						;-) 
							&rew

      re: .11
    
      I do not want to get into a single doctrinal point except
      one and that is simply that we do not have the full gospel
      and if we did, we would turn the world upside down we would
      be so motivated to serve Christ.
    
      So anyway, whatever the complete gospel is (the one that
      the last generation gets a hold of) and the _difference_
      between that gospel and the gospel as we understand it today...
      that difference is what I would call fresh.
    
      We need not define it here.  We can simply recognize that
      the latter rain comes as teaching (Deut 32:1,2), we have not
      received the latter rain, thus there is an abundance of teaching
      yet unrevealed.
    
      The greatest thing the sheep could use is to be fed with that
      yet unrevealed teaching (whatever it might be).
    
      Ezekiel 32:18,19
      Is it too little for you to have eaten up the good pasture, that
      you must tread down with your feet the residue of your pasture -
      and to have drunk of the clear waters, that you must foul the
      residue with your feet?
      And as for My flock, they eat what you have trampled with your
      feet, and they drink what you have fouled with your feet.
    
      I like how the KJV puts it: "Seemeth it a small thing to you?"
    
      I hope to be challenged by this.  I hope to allow God to convict
      my heart as to how pathetic a gospel I share with others, how
      poverty-stricken I am.  
    
      If we could paint the cross and portray Christ hung for others as
      perhaps Paul did so, I believe that in seeing that more complete
      gospel, that deeper revelation of the goodness of God will lead
      to a deeper repentence among the sheep.
    
      "The goodness of God leadeth thee to repentence" and so if we
      could supply deeper, fresher drafts of that goodness for them to
      drink in, we would be instruments in God's hands allowing for
      a deeper repentence.  
    
      And this is exactly what Laodicea needs.
    
                                                Tony

    >      I do not want to get into a single doctrinal point except
    >      one and that is simply that we do not have the full gospel
    >      and if we did, we would turn the world upside down we would
    >      be so motivated to serve Christ.
    
    I dunno about this statement.  Did Adam and Eve have sufficient
    motivation to follow God?  They spoke with Him.
    

RE:                     <<< Note 462.14 by YIELD::BARBIERI >>>
                               -< Clarification >-

       
   >   I do not want to get into a single doctrinal point except
   >   one and that is simply that we do not have the full gospel
   >   and if we did, we would turn the world upside down we would
   >   be so motivated to serve Christ.
    

       If we can't be motivated by what we can hold in our hands now,
       we can't be motivated by anything.  It is man's heart that needs
       changing, not the gospel of Jesus Christ.



      Jim

    re:  not having the full gospel until the last generation
    
    I'm sorry, Tony - I don't buy that.  If Yeshua is the Lamb slain from
    before the foundation of the world, then we've had the Gospel since
    Adam and Eve.  But I 'spect that's another long topic...
    
    re: shepherds & sheep
    
    Not much to add to what Andrew has already said here.  Remember the
    passage about not bruising a bent reed or snuffing out a smouldering
    wick?  Somehow, G-d is able to balance the need to deal with sinfulness
    while not killing even the dim light of a believer (be they newly
    reborn or far along in their walk).  
    
    I've heard the phrase "we need to have hearts of fire and heads of
    ice"; meaning, we must be deeply compassionate with one another, yet at
    the same time, not let our thinking be swayed by the world or our
    emotions.  Balancing those two (especially in the ways Andrew described
    earlier) is key in acting on the love we have for one another.
    
    
    Steve

      Agreeing to disagree.
    
      But, I just want to say that I have been to gospel seminars
      where I have heard the cross painted in a way that I almost
      never had heard it painted.  And having spent a few days of
      this...well, in seeing that goodness I've come out of them
      bewildered that I could do half the things I presently do, like
      sometimes watch TV.
    
      And I believe Paul painted the cross like noone here has heard
      it painted.  If only the sheep could see someone like that show
      them the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world.
    
      Prophecy foretold a "falling away" and this is mainly a falling
      away of ideas, concepts.  The dark ages were exceedingly dark.
      It is my belief that Satan dismembered the gospel so thoroughly
      that it was practically indistinguishable from what the apostles
      had.
    
      And every time, some group comes along and gets a little nugget
      of truth.  But, all too often, they feel they've arrived and
      the complete gospel has just been drunk.  The Reformation began in
      the recent centuries...who knows when its really finished?
    
      The path of the just is a shining light that shines brighter and
      brighter...
    
      If any man thinks he knows anything, he knows nothing yet as he 
      ought.
    
      The abomination of desolation was when Israel refused to advance 
      with the fresh light that stared them in the eyes.  "Your house is
      left unto you desolate."  They had all the advances for unto them
      were committed the oracles of God.  And yet they knew not God when
      He hung for them.
    
      ALL these things happened as examples and were written for our
      admonition unto whom the ends of the earth our come.
    
      There will be an endtime abomination of desolation.   It will be
      when today's 'Christianity' do with advancing light just what Isreal
      did with theirs.  And their 'house' will be just as desolate.  And
      they will join hands with 'Rome' and persecute just as readily as
      Israel did (i.e. civil powers).
    
      Read Jeremiah!  Look at the endtime relevence!  babylon.  Expectation
      of early and latter rains, covenant of law being written in the 
      heart (which is quoted in Hebrews).  And what happens when Jeremiah
      gives the word of God!  He's flogged, put in stocks, they seek his
      life, the word is burned.
    
      There will be Jeremiah's in our day.  And they'll give a word and
      that word can be none other than a fuller revelation of the gospel.
      And most will say, "We already KNOW that."
    
      And Jesus shakes His head and says..."Thou knowest not."
    
      But, what can He do?
    
      Simon the Pharisee feels well fed.
    
                                                       Tony
                                     

 I have no problem understanding the full message of the Gospel 
 with the scriptures that we have. God provided us with all the 
 tools that we need, and entrusted us with them. I believe it is
 dangerous for us to believe that the message of the Gospel has 
 not been given to us completely. (Check passages below).

 JUDE 1:3	Dear friends, although I was very eager to write
		to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had
		to write and urge you to contend for the faith that
		was ONCE FOR ALL ENTRUSTED TO THE SAINTS.
      1:4       For certain men whose condemnation was written about
		long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They
		are godless men, who change the grace of our God
		into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ
		our only Sovereign and Lord.
    
 MATH 28:19 	Therefore go and make disciples of all nations,
		baptizing them in the name of the Father and the
		Son and of the Holy Spirit.
  
 Oleg
    

RE.18  Tony

>     It is my belief that Satan dismembered the gospel so thoroughly
>      that it was practically indistinguishable from what the apostles
>      had.
 
	God's Word contains His complete revelation to us. Nothing is lacking.
However, our *ability* to comprehend it may be impacted by the deceptions of
Satan and even our own tradition. 

	The Lord's recovery of the divine truths began with the Reformation
which recovered the Bible (thank God!) from the Dark Ages where it was closed
for so many centuries. Justification by faith was also recovered in that
movement. However, we cannot say that the Reformation was a complete recovery of
the divine truths. Nevertheless, what was recovered in the Reformation was a
beginning. Even Martin Luther retained concepts and traditional understandings
that we cannot agree with. Since then the Lord has continued to recover the
divine truths thru faithful brethren throughout these last few centuries. 

	But all these recovered truths are *according to the Bible*. Satan has
not dismembered God's truths. The divine truths stand forever. Satan can confuse
men, but he could never dismember divine truth. He is not that powerful. Don't
give him so much credit!


regards,
ace  

>Justification by faith was also recovered in that movement.

I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean.  Possibly this is the false
claim that prior to the Reformation, the Church was believed to have taught
that one could be saved by doing good works even if one rejected the Faith.
That is most certainly not true.  Faith is what is required for justification,
but we sin if we do not also do those works to which we are called, and we
cannot be saved if we consciously continue to sin by leaving undone that which
we ought to have done.  We must make an honest effort to at least _try_ to
stop committing (by omission) those sins of which we are aware.  This requires
us to do works to be saved, unless we are physically unable.

Remember that in his discourse on the Mount of Beatitudes Our Lord said:

	Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost
	its savour, wherewith shall it be salted?  It is thenceforth
	good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under
	foot of men.  Ye are the light of the world.  A city that is
	set on a hill cannot be hid.  Neither do men light a candle,
	and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it
	giveth light unto all that are in the house.

Our Lord is pointing out that we are useless unless we spread ourselves,
like salt, among all peoples, and leave the taste of Christianity and
the results of our good works.  The Roman Catholic Church teaches the
importance of this, and I wish my Church and your Church were more
forthright in promulgating this teaching of that Church, for it is True:

"Laymen have countless opportunities for exercising the apostolate of
evangelization and sanctification.  The very witness of a Christian life,
and good works done in a supernatural spirit, are effective in drawing
men to the faith and to God; and that is what the Lord has said:

	`Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your
	good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.'"

					-- Apostolicam actuositatem, 6

"The Church must be present to [groups of people who do not even believe
in God] through those of its members who live among them or have been
sent to them.  All Christians by the example of their lives and the witness
of their word, wherever they live, have an obligation to manifest the new
man which they put on in Baptism, and to reveal the power of the Holy
Spirit by whom they were strengthened at Confirmation, so that others,
seeing their good works, might glorify the Father and more perfectly
perceive the true meaning of human life and the universal solidarity
of mankind."
					-- Ad gentes, 11

If Our Lord tells us to do good works, how can we fail to obey his commandment?

   "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead."

						-- James 2:20

As an illustrative example: in another conference I was asked, "How many
children died of hunger while you were pontificating in here?"  I was able
to reply that I had just produced a show which donates its proceeds to the
relief of world hunger, that I had made significant donations to relief in
Somalia in the past year, that I was raising money in the Project Bread
Walk for Hunger (next Sunday), and then invited the person who made that
statement to come with me to my parish in downtown Boston on a Tuesday
evening and help wait on tables feeding the homeless.

Saturday the 7th of May I have organized a work day and will be working at
"Friends of the Unborn" to do necessary Spring cleaning, painting, and raking.
I might point out that I posted the announcement of this work day in this
conference and others, and not one single person from this conference has
contacted me to offer to help work.

I point this out not to brag about my own accomplishments, because no matter
what I do, I should do more, for I am an unprofitable servant.  I point this
out because it is so important, especially in this time when so many people
are ashamed of the Gospel, to live it not only with our lips but in our lives,
and to do works not that we may be saved, because if we have faith we are
already saved through Our Lord's one sufficient sacrifice on the Cross, but
that others will see in our works our lively faith, and that we will be
believed and will bring others to Christ.

/john

    re: .21
    
    One could infer from this note that instead of being the fruit of
    salvation, works are actually a requirement *for* salvation.  Maybe I
    read it wrong, John; but if the teaching you're espousing includes
    works (whether on their own or combined with faith) as necessary to be
    saved, I believe the Bible does not support that position at all.
    
    Steve

re.21 John

>Justification by faith was also recovered in that movement.

>>I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean. 

	It's a matter of historical record of which volumes have been written
about. No need to take up disk space on the elaboration of it.

Regards,
ace

>    One could infer from this note that instead of being the fruit of
>    salvation, works are actually a requirement *for* salvation.  Maybe I
>    read it wrong, John; but if the teaching you're espousing includes
>    works (whether on their own or combined with faith) as necessary to be
>    saved, I believe the Bible does not support that position at all.

I believe that Jesus makes it very clear in the Beatitudes (as I posted)
that if the salt loses its savour (the people do not do God's will) that
they will be trampled and cast away as worthless.

The Bible says that "Faith without works is dead."  How can a dead faith
save?  God calls us to have a lively faith.

Now, none of us can judge whether another person is doing those works that
God requires of him, but certainly rejecting the call of God to do good
works, a call that is clear in the bible, is disobedience to the direct
command of God.

Is it necessary to keep God's commandments to be saved?  Just when will
your last chance be to turn from laziness and wickedness and respond to
God's clear call?

/john

re: Note 462.24             

>I believe that Jesus makes it very clear in the Beatitudes (as I posted)
>that if the salt loses its savour (the people do not do God's will) that
>they will be trampled and cast away as worthless.

That's fine, John.  But isn't a believer one who *wants* to do His will?  
And again - who (according to Gal. 2:20) is doing the performance?  I'm not 
arguing against doing good things....

>The Bible says that "Faith without works is dead."  How can a dead faith
>save?  God calls us to have a lively faith.

Yes He does.  And I would never suggest that good works are not important 
for the believer (see Eph 2:10, James 2:18, etc.).  In other words, as 
Yeshua said, "If you *love* Me, obey My commands."  Love = performance; 
obedience.

Believers *love* G-d and their evidence of that love is in the good works 
they are to do.  But those works do not save (as seen in Romans 4:1-5, 
emphasis mine...)

	What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered
	in this matter?  If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he 
	had something to boast about - but not before G-d.  What does
	the Scripture say?  "Abraham believed G-d, and it was credited to
	him as righteousness."  Now when a man works, his wages are not
	*credited* to him as a *gift*, but as an *obligation*.  However,
	the man who does not work but *trusts* G-d who justifies the 
	wicked (!!!  wow  !!!), his *faith* is credited as righteousness.

>Now, none of us can judge whether another person is doing those works that
>God requires of him, but certainly rejecting the call of God to do good
>works, a call that is clear in the bible, is disobedience to the direct
>command of God.

I agree.  Believers are called to do good works.  I'm not arguing that.  
I'm simply asking whether you believe those works are (as above) things we 
do so that G-d is *obliged* to pay us our wages (i.e., Salvation), or 
whether G-d is not obliged to pay us for works, but rather *credits* us 
with the wage of Salvation on the basis of our trust in Him?

To be sure, good works are *required* of believers; not for salvation; but
because this is what our lives are to be like, now that we've been
transferred from a kingdom of darkness into His marvellous light. 

>Is it necessary to keep God's commandments to be saved?  Just when will
>your last chance be to turn from laziness and wickedness and respond to
>God's clear call?

Is that aimed at me personally, John?

Regardless - ask the thief who died next to Him and put his trust in Him 
before doing so.  What good works was he able to accomplish from his own 
cross?  No baptism, no good works, no tongues, no rituals, no doctrinal 
debates, no time to accept the inerrancy of the scrolls....good heavens, 
was Yeshua lying when He promised that thief that he would be with Him in 
paradise?

I'll say again - good works are a necessary part of the life of the 
believer.  As far as their value towards salvation; they are unclean rags 
(to be polite).



Steve

re .25

No, that was not aimed at you, personally.

I think we have a semantic problem here.

Faith saves.

Rejecting good works damns.

Are works therefore necessary for salvation?  Clearly, if the opportunity
presents itself to do good works after salvation, the failure to do them
damns; therefore doing those works is a necessary part of salvation.

But it wasn't the works that saved; it was the faith.  The works, however,
were still necessary, unless there never were any works that God called
the believer to do.

/john

 "Feed my sheep..."
 
 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, that which is born of the Spirit
 is spirit.

 is it not part of our very nature to do good works because of 
 the spiritual nature that we received at our birth from above?

 So, the test of goods works is evidential of salvation not causative. 
 However only Our Father knows for sure whether these good works are 
 spontaneous or are some kind of offering to prove our "worth".

 Personally, I think we (the sheep) can forget who we are and begin producing
 fleshy works to "impress" Him, presumably, not a good thing, but these 
 "good works" make us feel OK. A spiritual aspirin to take away our pain?

 The flesh does good works as well as the Spirit. 
 I know that from experience.

 "Without me you can do nothing..."


                             Hank

    re: .27
    
    I am in 100% agreement with what you've said here.  Fantastic!
    
    Steve

    
    re: .27 good works of the flesh and good works of the spirit
    
    Would a good litmus test of this be:
    
    good works of flesh = "what can I get out of it"
    
    i.e. - you buy someone a gift, they don't thank you for it, you are
    hurt/offended - you were looking to receive something back for your
    (selfish) giving.
    
    good works of the spirit = selfless giving
    
    i.e. - giving financial and/or emotional support to a needy person
    (maybe a family member) knowing that they cannot repay you in any way -
    doing it for their good, not yours.
    
    Karen

  Re .29  

  Yes, thats how I sometimes realize my motives aren't the purest,
  when I want to be thanked or aknowledged, tho I'm sure its ok to appreciate
  an acknowledgment or even a good feeling for having done a good work.

    Hank

    And to add to this... these works will be tried by fire and it will be
    made manifest as to works of the flesh or spirit at that time.

 
 When one truly accepts the gift of Salvation (the sacrifice 
 on the Cross), and surrenders his/her life to Jesus, one is no
 longer his/her own, but becomes the property of Jesus,
 and one can rest assured of the eternal salvation BECAUSE
 THE WORD OF GOD SAYS SO!!

 JHN 10:27	My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and
		they follow me.

     10:28	I GIVE THEM ETERNAL LIFE, and THEY SHALL NEVER
		PERISH; NO ONE CAN SNATCH THEM OUT OF MY HAND.

		(not just for today or tomorrow, but FOREVER!)
 
 ROM 8:28	And we know that in all things God works for
		the good of those who love him, who have been
		called according to his purpose...

 ROM 8:38	For I am convinced that neither death nor life,
		neither angels nor demons, neither the present
		nor the future, nor any powers,
      :39	neither heights nor depth, nor anything else
		in all creation, will be able to separate us
		from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus
		our Lord.

 I COR 6:19	Do you not know that your body is a TEMPLE OF
		THE HOLY SPIRIT, WHO IS IN YOU, whom you have
		received from God? 

		YOU ARE NOT YOUR OWN;
	 :20    YOU WERE BOUGHT AT A PRICE...

	        (Jesus didn't die for nothing...)

    And if we make a boo boo...
    
    HEB 12:5	..."My son, do not make light of the Lord's
    		discipline, and do not loose heart when he 
    		rebukes you,
          :6    because the Lord disciplines those he loves, and
    		HE PUNISHES EVERYONE he accepts as a son."...
    
    	        (That's enough motivation for me to do a few good works...)
 Oleg
    

    
    re: .27 and .29
    
    Christ speaks about doing favors for the wealthy, having them 
    over for dinner, all the while knowing you will be invited back.
    This return is our reward.  Doing the deed when we can't be paid back
    stores up rewards in Heaven.
    
    I would take the analogy of .29 one step further.
    
    1) do a favor/help someone who can and will help you back.
    
    2) do a favor/help someone who cannot repay you in kind.
    
    3) do a favor/help someone who cannot repay you in kind, 
    	but do this anonymously.
    
    There is nothing wrong with any of the three examples.  I believe all
    are good.  They are, however, different.
    
    All, including the first, show the fruits of the spirit.  We *should*
    be helping each other and all of us can help someone in some way.
    
    The difference I see between 2 and 3 is the possibility of public
    adulation.  A politician would have his reward through a well
    publicized stint in a soup kitchen (donation of time) or charity
    support (donation of money).  I wouldn't know if the politician was
    sincere unless he did this when nobody was watching.  
    
    I catch myself now and again and need to pause and think hard about my
    actions.  Am I doing the right thing?  Am I doing it *because* I will
    receive praise?  Am I *not* doing something for lack of praise or fear
    of scorn?  
    
    Sadly, as I look back, I see that all too often I have succumbed to
    peer pressure or whatever and have done things for the wrong reasons 
    (both right and wrong actions) and left some things undone.  I pray 
    for God to guide me to better purposes in the future.
    
    Otto
                                  

Re: .33

On a lighter (and yet more somber note)
 
Some tests to see how we stack up against what God's standard is:

If we add more categories to those 3 in .33 -- 




 4) do a favor/help someone who can repay you in kind, but will not, and in 
	fact will go out of their way to repay you with hurt....
    
 5) repeat 4 again, knowing that you will probably get hurt again...


 6) do 4 for a dysfunctional family member with years of negative history.....


Bob