Conference yukon::christian_v7

    For myself, we haven't finished moving house yet; everything in our new
    place is not yet settled; the so-called living room is our unclassified
    storage area...
    
    Then we intend to invite a few people over...
    
    James

    I believe that regular fellowship is vital in Christian growth. As I
    said in my intro note (I think) I belong to a small, close fellowship.
    This means that the people who are mostly around me are close brothers
    and sisters who are very loving and also very loving. I have to be
    careful that I don't make us sound legalistic 'cos we're not, but you
    can guarantee that if I'm not right with God then it won't be long
    before someone lets me know (to my closest friends I am like glass - I
    can't hide anything !!). 
    
    Close fellowship also knocks the rough edges off; I've had a couple of
    people from my church live in my house at times and during those times
    God has been able to deal with things in our lives that probably
    wouldn't have come to the surface if we hadn't rubbed each other up the
    wrong way a bit.
    
    Finally, good fellowsship is uplifting. It takes your mind off of the
    things that have been taking up too much of your time (and often puts
    those kind off things into a more spiritual perspective). Often the
    devil puts me off just sitting and talking about the things of God in
    case my bro's and sisters think I'm being 'super spiritual'. This, of
    course, is a load of trash and the only reason I'm fed those lies is 
    because satan knows that talking about Jesus is the most uplifting
    conversation a Christian can have.
    
    I'll step off my soap box now !
    
    Ben
    
    P.S. Sorry, but I always go on when I'm well-blessed and God has
    blessed me loads !!!
      

A big part of the word we received this last weekend is that we are too busy
and preoccupied with activities other than the Lord.  Busyness is probably
one of the single most effective weapon being used by the enemy against the
church in this country today.  "Get busy, get involved in ........" so many
of which are worthy or fun causes but do not advance the kingdom.

Paul

    
    A big part of my struggle with all this is the fact that, while growing
    up, my family belonged to a charasmatic group that went haywire.  
    Basically, our lives were not our own.  Practically every aspect of our 
    lives was "controlled" (in some fashion) by this group.  Even God
    doesn't violate our free will, our right to choose and make our own
    decisions.  People dropped in any time of day.  You were expected to 
    drop what you were doing to counsel other people.  The church took 
    priority over all else - instead of God-spouse-family, it was 
    church-God-family.  Even though I was young and could not put into
    words what I was feeling, I knew it wasn't right.  As a result, I
    "rebelled" (according to them - because I wouldn't let them control me)
    and built some pretty strong walls.  I convinced myself I was a loner
    and didn't need anyone - I was my own best friend.  Only in the past
    few years have I realized (admitted to myself) that I am a social being 
    and need to connect with people.  And when I do, it's great!  But it's 
    taking that first step that is risky for me.  Yet I know that is what God is asking me to do - to grow, change, to give up
    my "right" to control my life - sometimes it feels like He's asking 
    just that little-bit-more than I think I can give, but I guess that's 
    where faith comes in.
    
    It's my past experience that makes me unsure where the boundaries are,
    what the balance should be.
    
    Karen

How sad, Karen.  I'll pray for you that God show you the right balance.  I
haven't been part of such a controlling group, but I can certainly see how it
could happen.  The vast majority of American churches fall into the opposite
category, we don't expect nearly enough of people.  As our church begins as a
body to think about expecting more from people, I'm very aware of and
concerned that we not fall into the opposite error which you have experienced.

Paul

"Satan put evils into the world in matched pairs, so that if we focus too
closely on one and back away from it, we will back straight into the other"

						- C. S. Lewis

    I can identify with this one... 
    
    Fellowship amongst Christians is so very important... especially
    for those of us whose biological families are not Christian.  It can
    oftimes feel lonely in a room full of people that you love, but have
    little commonality.
    
    My Aunts and Uncles are all now in their 50's and 60's.  They live
    lives so away from God that it is incredible.  Their morals and values
    in life are so contrary to Biblical morals that conversations are often
    laced with obscenities when discussing the weather.
    
    To add to that, I am 3000 miles away from any of my relatives.  I am
    alone here in Santa Clara without any family.  I have also found that
    most Christians have busy lives and don't have time to truly bond with
    others.  So while I have tons and tons of acquaintances, I have very
    few intimate friends in the church.  I have some... but not many.
    
    Then my life is so busy, when do I have time for others.  With working,
    single parenting, service in the church, and now Little League for two
    sons, even my life seems scattered so fiercly I can hardly gather the
    pieces together for dinner.
    
    During quiet times with the Lord, when I feel the most lonely, yet the
    most loved, I ask Him to fill me up so that my lack of familial
    interaction doesn't leave me cold and unsociable.  Most folks who know
    me would laugh at this, because, "You are such an outgoing loving
    person!" If they only knew the longing at times for Christian familial
    intimacy.
    
    I suppose that's why for me, each of you who participate in here mean
    so much to me.  While this medium may seem cold without sight or touch,
    it has helped to keep me focused on Him and be intimate with many of
    you.  Thanks for participating and fellowship that I have gleaned from
    all of you.
    
    I know it's not the same... especially when you need a sibling to help
    you put on a screen door, :-), but it is none the less diminished for
    me.
    
    Your Sis,
    Nancy
    

�    So what about you?  Do you feel a need/desire to fellowship more?  
�    If so, why?  If no, why not?

Karen, you have raised something which is very close to my heart.  I've 
been looking for an opportunity to get in to reply all day...

The pressure of the 'world' drive us apart as people.  It makes 'things' 
take precedence over people.  It makes 'money' a god, and people 
disposable.  Our hearts tend to become as hard as the metallic 'money' we 
strive for, until we realise that 'money' doesn't bring heart peace, joy, 
contentment at all...

OK - for money, you can substitute any of the common desires of man.  
Power, responsibility, honour, achievement, etc etc etc....  They all end 
in pride, the fall of the devil (1 Timothy 3:6).  Whereas God wants us to 
release our hold on self, and yield ourselves to Him.  "Be kind and 
compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ, 
God forgave you..."  Ephesians 4:32

I find myself hungry for fellowship.  Meeting with people I can share the 
LORD with answers a yearning in my heart which nothing else reaches.  I see 
heaven as totally answering that hunger.  I'm sad when I find Christians 
who seem to count worldly companionship as important as spiritual, and when 
met with Christians, their conversation seems to drift to the everyday 
matters instead of God's Word and work...  I can empathise with Ben's 
expression, though I have never been a part of a fellowship as closely knit 
as he has.  Perhaps if I had, I would have found all I wanted there, 
instead of having to hunt out those who were similarly hungry for 
fellowship.  I guess that's even a large part of my involvement here, over 
the years...

Karen, it sounds as though in your early experience, the leadership 
demanded legalistically what can only come from the heart.  I've thought a 
lot about this over the years, as I've seen leaders who tried in various 
ways to stir up their fellowships, with great heartsearching as to whose 
fault it was that they didn't get a great outpouring of blessing (generally 
expected as many conversions).  My conclusion has been that our motivation 
to serve has to come from a great realisation - vision - of our God.  His 
love; His greatness, His beauty.  The delight in realising that for Him, I
would do *anything* ... And He is so tender with us, He wouldn't demand 
what we could not give.  He has made us, and understands us through and
through.  As we are perfected, He is expressed more and more through us.
That includes our interactions with others; knowing what not to confront
them with, as much as what's needed there.  It is for each to hear the LORD
for himself; not for any to 'dominate'.  The pastor ... shepherd ... led
the sheep in Palestine, who followed the voice they knew. 

I believe that we need to know the spirit in a group, to know how open we 
can be.  Whether they would refelct Galatians 6:1-2 ... 
 "Brothers, if one of you is caught in a sin, you who are spiritual should
  restore him gently.  But watch yourself, or you also may be tempted.  Carry
  each other's burdens, and in this way you will fulfil the law of Christ. 
  Each one should test his own actions...." 

The motivation is from [the LORD] within, to serve as we are able.  Not
from pressure to keep up with the standards of the fellowship [legalism],
whether explicit or implicitly applied.  Mind you, there are some who would
feel convicted by being in a very giving fellowship, and compelled to leave
rather than be an inactive member, while at anothr point, they might be
able to enter into the joy of involvement - maybe not in that fellowship...

In contrast to Nancy's experience, just about all my family are Christians.
I have a complete family - my sons and wife are keen for the LORD.  Yet I
still haven't enough, and this conference has been a very precious means of 
fellowship to me over the years.  Thank you, folks, for showing the LORD to 
me....

						in Jesus' love
								Andrew

    
    I appreciated your note, Andrew.
    
    You referred to the former group I belonged to as demanding something
    that only comes from the heart - you are right.  The friends that we
    met with on Saturday night (referenced in my base note) were also part
    of that group.  While many who belonged no longer communicate with
    each other, (people who left the group were basically 'shunned') there
    are a few of us who still have relationships.  It helps to have this
    common experience because at least you can talk about it with them -
    it's very difficult for someone who has not gone through the same
    trials as you to relate - they may be able to emphathaize, but they
    cannot truly understand (just as with any situation in life.)
    
    Relationships take time to grow because they are based on trust and
    respect (one would hope, anyway).  They progress at their own rate and
    if you want it to last, you can't force it. 
    
    I, too, am thankful for the fellowship I receive here and don't take it
    lightly.  This forum has allowed me to speak or be silent of my own
    choice.
    
    Karen

    a friend of mine went through a similar experience with a controlling
    group.
    
    She is now out of it, because God worked through some rough times to
    bring her out (her parents went and said come live with us, which was
    the only way she could leave w/o being shunned, but she was slandered a
    bit).  She has mentioned several times how wonderful it is for her to
    be able to choose what ministries she's involved in and so on.
    COurse, this is getting off the topic...
    
    but fellowship can be great, but can also be stiffling.  
    If we get into the rabbit hole (or fortress) mentality, then we are no
    longer able to impact the world with the Gospel...
    
    (there, now this one fits...:-)

    re: last
    
    Yes, Phil.  That is the trick - balance.  Not to be so inwardly focused
    that you collapse from within and/or have no impact in your world, and
    not to be so outwardly focused that you are pulled in 20 different
    directions and get your priorities confused.
    
    Karen
    

	Okay, this might sound kind of odd...  I'm beginning to find some
good fellowship during abortion pickets and other (peaceful and legal)
activities of pro-life Christians.  It's mildly exhilarating to sing hymns
and pro-life songs, pray, get honks of approval or jeers of disapproval from
various passers-by, have plenty of police protection, and to know that we
are providing the clientele (and the abortionists) the opportunity to think
it over one more day before going ahead with that gruesome business.  The
picketing is very effective.  Please participate whenever you can!

Hi Bob (.11) 

That one is not at all odd!  Where people are united for a common
commitment, they know that they share care, concern and a priority on that
commitment.  It makes a strong basis for 'fellowship', in "'", because it 
can be manifest for quite secular reasons.  However, where it is for the 
LORD's cause, it goes into 'eternity in the heart', at its deepest level.

When a group of us used to go open air preaching some years back, we knew a
strong bond, sharing in opening ourselves to ridicule.  Each of us wass
effectively making the statement that 'preaching the gospel' is more
important than our personal reputation.  The fellowship bond was precious.

I think David and Jonathan must have shared a deep love for the LORD, from 
2 Samuel 1:26 :
"I grieve for you, Jonathan my brother; you were very dear to me.
 Your love for me was wonderful, more wonderful than that of women."

								Andrew

    
     Hi all :: Fellowship......what a rare thing indeed. 
    
     Karen, I was part of one of those Charismatic groups for about 4 years 
    from '82 to 86. I know *exactly* what you mean. I think they all use
    the same handbook or something. I thought that I had found a very
    loving, caring group of Christians who were committed to living out 
    New Testament principles and thus were committed to each other. It
    turned out that it was not commitment but control that they were
    interested in. The pastor wanted to be treated as a mini-God. In fact,
    he even went so far as to say that people couldn't follow Jesus, they 
    had to follow elders who followed Jesus and look to them for guidance.
    I shudder to even repeat the words. (I should note that this was said
    *after* we left but it has been verified by several witnesses). Anyway, 
    I had been very trusting of these people. About 3 years into it when 
    things started going crazy I began to point out from Scripture where I 
    believed the group was going wrong. I was then shunned by the so-called 
    elders. They didn't want to hear it. We left this group about a year 
    later. There was only one couple from the group that would have anything 
    to do with us after we left. When other people would leave they would 
    contact us and ask us about why we had left....it turned out that our 
    reasons were always very similar.......the spirit of error and control, 
    but before that we would not have heard a peep from them.......the reason 
    was that the "pastor" had been fabricating stories about us and why we 
    left. Angry.....you bet I was. I had trusted this man, whom I had believed 
    thought of me as a brother in Christ.......now I looked upon him more
    like Judas.
     Anyway, I find true Chistian fellowship to be all too rare. I must
    admit that I find it very hard to be trusting and to bond with other
    Christians after my experience with this group. Quite frankly I wish I 
    lived a little closer to some of you folks you occupy this notesfile. 
    You're a great group.
    
     In Christ
     Ryan  

    Hello,
    
    We have 2 or 3 couples we meet with at somebody's house every Sunday
    night after church.  Usually Popcorn, and some kind of desert is made.
    
    This is the highlight of our week usually, and we miss it when it
    doesn't work out.
    
    1 of the couples go to another church which helps to keep perspective
    on things going on in our respective churches.  Talk ranges from church
    problems to kids, to work and anything else.
    
    I also meet at 5:30 am on Tuesdays with a Promise keepers small group,
    but it is more bible study than just fellowship.
    
    Sparky

    
    Thanks for replying, Ryan.
    
    There truly is 'nothing new under the sun' (which is unfortunate in
    this case).....but God uses even these situations to teach us, grow 
    us closer to Him.
    
    Just last night we were 'fellowshipping' :-) with a couple from church. 
    These people are about 15 years older than us, but we really connect
    with them.  It seems that people our age are too wrapped up in their
    own lives to desire this connection with others.
    
    Karen

Fellowship does have different levels.  Picture concentric rings with yourself
at the center.  People closest to you occupy the inner circle, and others
at varying degrees occupy other rings all the way out to total stranger
with whom you come into contact.  People move in and out of these rings
fairly freely except that we each grant permission in some way to move closer
to the center.  The closer to the center, the tougher it is to gain access
to another person; or the closer one tries to get to us, the tougher we 
make it for that person to draw closer to us.  You know people who have
wanted a faster or slower relationship than you are prepared to grant.

The unmet expectation is cause for misunderstanding and sometimes hurt.
I want to get closer to you, but you can't deal with another close 
relationship (for whatever reason).

When we begin to understand this dynamic on the individual level, we
can also begin to see how it affects the group dynamic.  Some people
think there is not enough fellowship (and they are right) and some
people are taxed by too much fellowship (and by their understanding of
fellowship/relationships, they are right, too).

We know that we should not forsake the fellowship of the saints, as
some are in the practice of doing.  And we know that we should not 
be doing things to the detriment of our relationship to God.  Balance
and priority are the keys.  When we say God-family-church we need to see
this as a triangle where God is the pinnacle and family and church are the
same (others).  The anacrostic for Joy is Jesus-Others-You.  Family
does have a precedence over church, but only slightly, as the husband
is the head of the wife, yet they are co-equals.  Family is usually
in the inner circle.

Mark

    re: last
    
    Well put, Mark.  In an earlier note I referred to the fellowship we had
    with another couple last night - this exact topic - the 'whys & hows'
    of levels of fellowship came up.  Priority and balance are key (as they
    are with most other things.)
    
    Karen