Conference yukon::christian_v7

>    man should lead, do I need to lead Rafael into leadership?  And how? 

Short answer: yes, by example.

    I've told this to Nancy offline before, but I think it's somewhat of a 
    cultural problem.  My in-laws are Hispanic as well and traditionally,
    the woman is more the head of the household duties than the man.  As
    great a Christian man my FIL is, my MIL is really the spiritual leader
    of the house.  Because of this clash of cultures, we experienced some
    problems in my own marriage, still do sometimes.
    
    Mike

    You are right Mike, in the hispanic culture women do lead the home...
    in every area.  
    
    I asked Rafael if he felt uncomfortable reading scripture and then
    explaining what he got from that scripture in applying it to our lives
    [if applicable].  He said okay, but he didn't want to argue. :-)
    
    We'll see.. Hey Markem... could you expand on the Yes, there Bro.
    
    I'll start a new note and move these into it.. er, uh, what should it
    be titled?

>    I'll start a new note and move these into it.. er, uh, what should it
>    be titled?
    
    "How Women can lead their homes while letting the men think they are the
     leader"

>    "How Women can lead their homes while letting the men think they are the
>     leader"
    
    My mother is an expert on this one - she's been doing it for years!!

Note 6.675              Prayer Requests (prayers in 7.*)              675 of 681
    
    Addendum
    
    Spoke to Rafael tonight to let him know that I had accepted his
    direction in not teaching my Sunday School class.  He was really
    surprised and acknowledged how hard that must be for me.  He knows my
    heart's desire to give and teach those girls [who aren't too different
    from me, when I was a young girl].
    
    Then we really talked, I mean intimate talk [not sexual].  I told him
    my frustration of not ever having been a *real* Mom to my boys, a
    full-time at home making cookies kinda Mom that was stressed out, too
    tired or rushing to meet some schedule.  I told him I feel like a sheep
    herder, always checking the cattle, making sure their shoes are on the
    right feet, hair combed, shirts tucked in, teeth brushed and then
    herding them out the door into the car to make it to school and work on
    time.  
    
    I also told him that Yosemite was needed in order for me to begin the
    transition of parenting with my kids as they are real different then
    one year ago.  One's going through puberty and the other one got his
    first jock strap. :-)
    
    I then was able to share with him what I thought a best friend was and
    what I needed in a best friend, spiritually, emotionally and
    physically.  He really still struggles with the spiritual part.  I
    asked him how he felt about my desire to have him lead in that area. 
    He understood, but he said, "If I asked you to lead in helping Matthew
    with his math, you couldn't do as well I can [he's really a genius in
    this area, its his lifes work formulations].  I believe you know the
    Bible better then myself and have no problem with your leading."
    
    Men, women and whoever else is reading this... He has no problem, I
    have the problem.... Does God have the problem?  His word states the
    man should lead, do I need to lead Rafael into leadership?  And how? 
    This is very strange for me.  God is so good to me, He is always there
    and I know that if I pray and humble myself before and God and give Him
    my heart's concerns, He can give direction.
    
    Also, I shared with him my fears of old patterns of behavior that he
    has refused to acknowledge in the past.  I said if we don't explore
    what went wrong, it can go wrong again.  I also told him that the fact
    that I feel something makes it valid, whether he sees it my way or not
    and that he needs to take seriously the fact that I cannot live in
    constant criticism... I need encouragement, not negativity... and
    frankly, I will shrivel up and become a miserable rebellious wife under
    criticism, I know, I've lived it before. Please understand I can take
    direction, its NEGATIVITY that is unbearable for me.
    
    Rafael and I are not saying that we are getting married again in the
    next 6 months, what we are talking about is a *real* attempt at
    becoming friends.  I need to be able to pour my heart out to him
    without fear of rejection or invalidation.  And of course, he needs the
    same from me... It's painful to hear that I hurt him in ways that were
    unjustifiable, but in order to become intimate friends, I must bear the
    pain, acknowledge the wrong and work towards a better communication. 
    This is what I asked of him tonight as well.  I also told him there was
    no anger or resentment involved in my heart, that all was forgiven and
    that he needed to forgive me as well, [and I apologized for my wrongs]
    so that we could base our communication on a clean foundation with
    God's forgiveness and His principles as the base part of that
    foundation.
    
    This trip to Yosemite set my mind so clear on things... so clear that
    it's almost scarey... the time to think, meditate and regroup
    priorities was very much a part of this past week.  Markem, I know you
    can relate to what I'm about to say.  The realization that Matthew is
    11 leaves me with very few years left to enjoy and influence him in my
    home.  I've lost an inordinate amount of time already of creating a
    sanctuary at home for my kids.... I don't want to lose any more time.
    
    Please pray that I will know God's direction and that Rafael will grow
    in grace, in God's time [not mine and man I hate asking for patience,
    but I must] and my patience.  
    
    I know I've rambled on here now for a while, it's late and I still have
    to drill Matthew on his spelling words in about 5 minutes, so I'll
    close.
    
    Thanks Brothers and Sisters for your prayers,
    Nancy
    

    Moved applicable notes from topic 6 to this topic.
    
    Nancy
    co-mod Christian

>    "How Women can lead their homes while letting the men think they are the
>     leader"

My father has said that "man is the head of the home and wife is the neck
that turns the head."

I have also heard that "the best wife is the one that lets her husband think
he's in charge."

All these humorous axioms have a grain of truth in it for some couples.
Mike brings up a good point about culture that I hadn't really considered
but I'll try to answer a little from a non-cultural perspective of husbands
and wives where the wife is more spiritually grounded than the husband.

It's one of the toughest row to hoe, I think, when the wife has been growing
in the Lord and the husband is plain content with the way things are with
football, sailing, yardwork, or weekend play.  By nature there is a drift.

I saw another one of those axioms that said that a woman marries a man
hoping to change him and a man marries a woman hoping she'll never change.
Both are wrong because change occurs no matter what but it isn't we who 
will do the changing of the other.  We will change ourselves based on 
influences and experiences, and not least, time and aging.

Persistence instead of pestilence, encouragement instead of nagging, pulling
instead of pushing, drawing instead of dumping...  the idea is that the same
types of things can be done but with the attitude of selfless love it 
becomes one and not the other.  Sometimes encouragement seems like nagging, 
especially of the Holy Spirit has had a hand in preparing the wayward spouse.
This is where patience is required not to react poorly when some resistence
is encountered accusing you of selfish love (changing another to suit you)
instead of selfless love (unmerited favor for another).

Start out leading 100% to Rafael's 0%.  Read the Bible to the kids with
him present.  Later, you may take turns with this group effort, involving
the kids and then Rafael.  Perhaps you can get it to 90% to 10% participation.
(Note: I believe in the 100%-100% marriage, not the 50-50 marriage; these
percentages refer to leadership participation).  Also, this is just one
example.  Leadership carries through all areas of family life.

Discuss such things as child privileges and disciplines so that the two of
you are agreed, and involve Rafael in generating these thoughts.  The
questions is often an effective way to grant control to another.  "What
do you think about this?"  This places the power of decision squarely
in their lap.  (They may reject it: "I don't know" or "I don't care."
Don't be discouraged.  Perhaps something else is going on to cause them
not to place a priority on the topic of discussion.  And perhaps it is 
an opening to discuss that, instead, or to give it some air (breathing space)).
This is where discernment comes in.  But use the power of the question to 
involve him and to empower him.

If self-esteem is the issue, the slow road to assuming leadership will not
happen at once (in fact you wouldn't want it to happen that fast!).  Be
grateful and look for the small steps before the big strides.  (We're
happy when our child says his or her first words but it isn't long before
we can't shut them up! ;-) )

Gradually, if you continue to grow, and continue to draw, you will come to
a place where the priorities will right themselves.  And one day you'll
see that it is so (a tap on the shoulder by the Holy Spirit to remember
how it was and how it is).  The change in a person who gives their life over
to the Lord and means it cannot help but right itself, like Weebles that
wobble but don't fall down.  When Rafael comes to the Lord, sincerely,
in time the rest will follow.

Mark

Nancy,

I'm not as convinced that there needs to be such a big distinction in roles
in a marriage as many people think.  I think there are differences between
men and women, and I think there are probably different roles, but I don't
think the distinction needs to be as clear cut, black and white, as we often
make it.  But that's not really a rat hole I want to go down, and you probably
don't want to either.  What I really want to do is make a couple of suggestions
that you may or may not find helpful in your relationship with Rafael, and
that may or may not feel apply, but I hope you'll at least consider them.  
Maybe at first they sound a little contradictory, but I don't think they are.

The first is that if a woman wants a man to be her leader, she's got to be
his follower without always finding fault with his leadersip.  Its very 
easy for me to find fault with other people and I find I have to guard my
tongue sometimes.  (And between you and I, and everyone reading this note,
shh, don't tell anyone :-{ - I sometimes fail and find myself wishing I 
could erase some negative remark that just came out of my mouth)  If someone 
is criticized for how they do things, what they say, and what their suggestions 
are, and if they don't feel as strong about the particular subject as the
person doing the criticizing then they're probably not going to speak up or 
lead.  They'll turn to the other person to take the lead in those areas they 
don't feel as strongly about.  

I had some personal experience in that area as the recipient of fault-finding 
because my Dad, in his eagerness to see us do our very best, constantly 
criticized.  Unfortunately what happened is that we, his children, became 
afraid to try.  It was less painful to hang back and not do something
than to try something and then feel like a failure when your father tells
you all ways you did it wrong.  All three of my sisters and I have had to work
hard in the area of confidence building in order to become more "functional" 
adults.  We don't blame Dad, he wanted us to well and knew no other way and 
as he's matured he's recognized that criticizing trait in himself and does 
much better now at curbing his own tongue.

The second thing is an example.  I'm not going to try and draw any conclusions
from it, but one of my favorite heroines of the Bible is Abigail.  Abigail
recognized that her husband's stinginess to David (the David who became
King of Israel) was wrong, and realized it would also probably cost the lives 
of many in her household and in the service of that household.  So she very 
quickly and authoratively gives instructions to the servants to load up 
provisions and take them to David and his men who are already on their way in 
anger to meet out vengence on her husband.  And she hurries along too, to 
confront David and hopefully mollify him and stop him from his march for 
vengence.  David is confronted by Abigail's courage and the rightness of what
she says and does, and he, the one who is rightfully king of Israel, humbly 
acknowledges that she has kept him from doing wrong and he thanks for that.  
(And later marries her after her husband dies)

Leslie

    Leslie,  I agree that I must have the attitude of the follower, for
    which I need prayer... I've been independent now, for almost 4 years.  
    
    Which is why I took the first step in giving up my Sunday School
    Class.  I just hope and pray that I can continue.
    
    Thanks for the note, encouragement and example.... the example is a
    little over my head right now.. but in God's time. :-)

One other thing, maybe try asking Rafael what he'd like to do, or how
he'd like something done instead of asking him to lead in something.

For example, instead of telling Rafael you'd like it if he would read
the Bible to the boys and then tell them what he (Rafael) got from it,
ask, "Rafael, what do you think could be done that would help Clayton 
better understand xxxxxxxxxxxx ?"  

Now you're turning to Rafael for help, asking him for advice, and looking 
to him for leadership in this area.  Then, even if you're the one who's 
doing the actual activity, Rafael is the one who led in the area of what 
you are doing.  Don't play dumb though, and really be looking for and
listening to what he has to say or you'll just be roll playing and 
manipulating.

Leslie

    .11
    
    Yup, and he's a sharp one, he knows manipulation games.  
    
    But you know the biggest battle is yet to come... The enemy is not
    pleased with our commitment.  A strong union in the Lord is not making
    him happy and I need to be in a state of realization that set backs
    will occur and I must remain loving and faithful...
    
    Now that I've said that, a woman sure has the hormones to battle and
    mood swings which come without any notice and yet I must be stable... 
    Only through the Lord. :-)
    
    

    Once a month, every wife should let the husband be "Leader for a Day"!

 :-)

    I slay me!

RE:  <<< Note 451.15 by FRETZ::HEISER "Clinton Impeachment: 14.4M+ signatures" >>>
   


>                    -< you folks are gonna miss me! >-

 

    right ;-)

    I'll echo Leslie on the negativism.
    
    When I was engaged, my fiancee would often point out things I did wrong
    (occasionally with spiritual implications) or that I was wrong about,
    and I never took it well.
    Especially since she was right so much of the time.
    I don't think my reaction was necessarily right, but I do think that
    the best you can do is pray for him to grow into that role.  I told her
    more than once that if she really wanted me to change to pray God would
    convict me of that change, and not to be so vocal (cuz I couldn't hear
    God for her), otherwise my rebelliousness (a couple times I found
    myself doing what was wrong simply because she was telling me what was
    right and I knew it) would rear it's very ugly head.
    So out of my experience, I'd say pray, pray and pray some more.
    Then encourage him, build him up and respect him.
    Positive reinforcement was something I don't think I got much of.
    
    hope you made it through all the parenthesessessesees.... 
    I tend to overuse them (like this) and ellipses... 
    :-)
    
    HiR!
    p

    .17
    
    BTW, folks, I'm not a negative person at all.  I don't find the wrong
    in things and praise it... it's not my character.  I typically always
    make excuses for the other person ... did it for 12 years with him
    already.
    
    Negativity comes from his direction towards me... and *that* is what I
    struggle with... how would handle it?  Like Leslie said, you shrink
    backwards and become fearful to do anything.

    Are you saying what do you do when he is negative towards you?
    be positive when he does things right (ie positive)
    
    since I've never been married, I don't claim to be very wise in this
    area (I'll leave that to MM who I think has written some wise things on
    marriage and relationships)
    
    I wasn't trying to imply you are a negative person. :-)
    Rather, I was warning you to make sure you don't become that way.
    :-)
    and by negative I mean point out the wrong in things and point it out
    again and again and again and again (you get the point I hope)
    
    

    Absolutely get the point Phil... thanks for that.
    
    Yes, how does one respond to CONSTANT critcism.

    Nancy,
    
    Confront him *immediately*. Not in a combative way, but with your goal
    of understanding one another as friends and interacting with one
    another positively always first in your mind.  His habit
    patterns/negativity may be so ingrained that he doesn't realize what
    he's doing - you can help him become more aware of how it affects you
    and help him understand how to interact with you. When he is critical or 
    says something hurtful to you, (not necessarily in the heat of the
    moment - you may need to wait until you've both calmed down), but ask
    him why he chose to say *that* to you or why he spoke in *that* way.
    Try to get him to think about what he's doing/ saying, and tell him how
    you feel when he does it - and if you know, why you feel that way when
    he does/says something negative. Stand up for yourself, but not by
    lashing out or withdrawing - rather by taking the time to retrain, if
    you will, the pattern of interaction. Like working with oneself to
    break a bad habit, or raising children by continually providing
    positive correction/feedback. It'll take time and a lot of work, but
    it'll be worth it.  Hope this is clear.
    
    Rebecca
        

    Thanks Rebecca... Immediate confrontation is easy with me.. :-) :-) :-) 
    It's the manner in which I confront that must change within me...
    typically, I cry, sulk and then get angry... not a good pattern.  I
    need to be able to accept, reject and redirect... need prayer, need to
    spend more time in prayer....
    
    You are right, I don't think he realizes it...he's really a good person
    folks, I hope I don't make him out to be something horrible in your
    eyes...because Rafael has some very wonderful qualities and he's a very
    responsible person, always up front and there when you need him.  He's
    also turning into the best father to my boys... really.
    
    It's amazing what God can do with a life surrendered.  Even if it's
    only partially surrendered, the key part is the door is open of his
    heart... 
    
    Nancy

  Hi Nancy, 

  There is a place for negativitey, Our Heavenly Father does not always
  treat us in a "positive way". 

  Take the example of Jesus...

  "Though He was a Son, yet He learned obedience by the things 
   which He *suffered*"

  His other sons also...

  "For whom the Lord loves He chastens, and scourges every son whom He
   receives"

  "...afterward it (chastening) yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness
   to those who have been trained by it".  

   Hebrews 12 NKJV.

   Nancy, the fig tree is putting forth its leaf...

   Therefore *be patient* brethren until the coming of the Lord, see how 
   the farmer waits for the precious fruit of the earth, waiting patiently
   until it receives the early and latter rain. 
   You also be patient, establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord
   is at hand.  James.

                       Hank

    Neither my wife nor myself have ever had the sole leadership role in our
    family. Rather than one leading with the other following, we've walked
    side-by-side. We've been married for 22 years. Our spiritual level
    has always been as the same level. Next month, both of us will be
    accepted into formation as Carmelites of the Third Order. Our marriage
    is surely blessed, because Christ is head of our lives.

    I think there is a danger when one believes that he or she has the God
    given right to be leader of the family and the other must submit to
    that authority. Such thinking is ego based and not the fabric of a
    healthy Christian marriage. The bottom line is that only Jesus Christ can 
    be the head of a successful family. If He is the head, all else will fall 
    into place.


    Jim

     .24
    
    You bring up a very valid point.  I hope no-one sees this as an
    abusive dysfunctional relationship that I want.
    
    I believe that the man is to be the headship of the home, setting
    the direction and the wife most definitely is the rutter.  A head
    without a rutter would go nowhere, a rutter without direction would be
    chaotic.
    
    22 years experience warrants listening to... thanks!

    Nancy,
    
    My grandmother always talked to me about marriage - she and my
    grandfather were married for sixty-two years and had one of the best
    relationships I've ever seen. One of the things she said that really
    stuck with me, was that she never let my grandfather leave the house in
    the morning without telling him that she loved him, and how handsome he
    looked, etc. She continually built him up and concentrated on him
    feeling good about himself. The second thing that stuck was that when
    he came home at night, even after they had children, she ensured that
    he had a half hour to an hour to sit down and relax and unwind. He used to
    tell her that it was a blessed place to come home to. Now she didn't
    work outside the home, which made the latter much easier. I do think
    though that it illustrates how the wife can set an overall positive tenor 
    for the home. And where a man has perhaps learned negativity that may
    have served a purpose in a different environment, that loving
    environment, day after day, begins to show him that there is indeed a
    different way. I believe the home should be a safe haven, not as some
    people believe, where they can let their hair down and behave any way
    they want, no matter how horribly, but rather, where they can relax
    because they know they're loved and that love is continually
    reinforced.  It can never be stressed enough, that the people closest
    to us deserve the best treatment. Everything we read in the New Testament 
    about loving one another and building one another up should be applied
    tenfold in the home. 
    
    The other thing is simply to stress that marriage is teamwork, and that
    the strengths of each person work to the good of the whole. My grandfather 
    was a very shy, sweet, quiet man and my grandmother was feisty and full of 
    life all the time. He thought she made life the most fun, and she thought 
    he raised her and taught her everything worth knowing. They completed each 
    other, in a sense. They were strong Christians and were united on all 
    fronts. My mother always commented that she and her sister knew they were 
    important and loved, but they also knew that their mother and father were 
    first in each others' hearts and that provided a stability for them as 
    children.  My granny and grandad, who were married for sixty-five 
    years, complemented each other similarly. My grandfather was outgoing, 
    never knew a stranger, always had a joke handy and never compromised on 
    his beliefs. You'd like as not find him in the grocery store talking to 
    someone about the Bread of Life. Granny was quiet and serious, and knew 
    the Bible inside and out. She ministered to people quietly, always in the 
    background, ready to help where needed. It was to her grandaddy would turn 
    when he wanted to know a particular verse or reference. They were always 
    together and always loving and respectful of each other. But it took a
    lot of time and effort for each of their marriages to reach those places. 
    
    One thing that it always helps me to remember, is that although men and
    women are different and go about things in different, sometimes to each
    other, incomprehensible, ways, at bottom we're alike. We feel the same
    emotions - hurt, embarassment, joy, love, etc....and we're all utterly 
    dependent on our Father in Heaven for all things.
    
    Sorry for rambling.
    
    Rebecca      
      
    

>    I think there is a danger when one believes that he or she has the God
>    given right to be leader of the family and the other must submit to
>    that authority. Such thinking is ego based and not the fabric of a
>    healthy Christian marriage. The bottom line is that only Jesus Christ can 
>    be the head of a successful family. If He is the head, all else will fall 
>    into place.

I'll take issue with your statement, Richard, and say that such thinking
merely misunderstands what leadership, authority, and submission is all 
about.  We don't disagree on the head of the church (in Jesus) and as
that head, husbands are also to be head of their homes.  That's scripture
that most people want to pass by.  Why?  Because they misunderstand what
it is trying to say:

  Husbands, love your wives AS CHRIST LOVED the church...

Christ is the spiritual head of the church "and gave himself for it"
So too is the husband the spiritual head who is to give himself for
the one who submits to him.  

It's not ego-based in its proper context, or Jesus is the head of the church
based on his ego.  No, the proper context of the home does has a leader,
and yet the two are made ONE FLESH (which means indistinguishaby one).
The Trinity is also the archetype of the Marriage.  God the Father is
the head, Jesus the Son is subject to the Father but is One with the Father
and the Holy Spirit proceeds from both Father and Son, and is also ONE
IN THE SAME BEING and ESSENCE.  So while there is a head in the home, in
the proper context (which is not ego-based), the two are one.  And we agree
that the third person overruling the other two is the Lord who is the
head of any successful family.

Mark

    
    
    Thank you for sharing your memories and lessons from your grandparent's
    lives.....I want a marriage like that.
    
    Karen
    

    
    Sorry....my last entry was directed to Rebecca :-)
    
    Karen
    

    Something they teach you in COM100 (Intro to Human Communications),
    which also comes from John Gottman's "Why Men & Women Can't Get Along":

    - Men and women respond differently physiologically to conflict.  Men
      respond sooner and stronger (pulse, blood pressure, sweat), find it
      more adversive (don't enjoy it), and come down from it more slowly. 
      Women bring it up more often because they find it less unpleasant.
      In an argument, this becomes a vicious cycle with the men, women
      don't allow them to come down from the stress.

    - In marriage, women are more confrontive and men more avoidant.  Men
      view conflict negatively.

    - Men complain that wives complain, criticize, and escalate.  Women want
      to talk it out until resolved.  

    - Women complain that men emotionally withdraw or are too aggressive
      (when backed into a corner). 

    - Inequities in marriage contribute to women's dissatisfaction.

    In a survey on the top six complaints on their spouses, these are the
    results:

       Women on their Husbands         
       -----------------------                  
    1. Housework - don't do their share
    2. Communication - you interrupt, don't listen, or don't talk
    3. Spending - you spend too much money
    4. Driving
    5. Calling - you don't call me
    6. Pay attention - not enough attention when being spoken to

       Men on their Wives
       -----------------------                   
    1. Spending
    2. Complaining/Nagging
    3. Irritable
    4. Interference - can't do what you want
    5. Don't Cook
    6. Appearance - you're too fat or sloppy

    Rebecca!
    
    AMEN! YES!  You have just described a marriage that is wonderful! 
    Thank God for Godly Grandparents.  I had a set too. :-)
    
    Nancy

    RE:27

    Mark, I agree with what you have explained as what being the head of
    the family means, however, too often it is interpreted as grounds for
    domination by husbands over their wives. The title and context of this 
    note tells  me that it is not always  understood as you explained. 

    Jim

    .32
    
    I think you're wrong about the title and context of this note.  Go back
    read my input about marriage, husband/wife roles and it'll show you
    that leadership as Mark has defined is EXACTLY what I'm talking about.

    re:32
    
    OK, then I misunderstood.
    
    Sorry !
    
    Jim

    :-) No problem. :-)
    
    BTW, I REALLY liked your input.

    We recently had a revival at our church where the minister focused on
    the successful marriage. One of the things he mentioned was the need to
    understand and respect the differences between a man's needs and a
    woman's needs. He listed those needs as follows:
    
    Man's Needs                              Woman's Needs
    
    1) Sexual Fulfillment                    1) Affection
    2) Recreational Companionship            2) Communication
    3) Attractive spouse (men visual)        3) Honesty & Openness
    4) Domestic Support (peace & quiet)      4) Financial Support
    5) To be admired by his wife             5) Family Commitment
    
    As you can see, men and women desire entirely different things from
    each other, which is why it's so important to try to understand each
    other and meet the actual needs, rather than what we think the needs
    are, or for a woman to give a man what she wants or vice versa.  I 
    believe marriage is the single most challenging and growth stimulating 
    earthly interaction we have - I've only been married coming up on four 
    years, and I've learned more about forgiveness and acceptance and my 
    shortcomings than I'd learned in my whole life.
    
    Re: .30  I believe that in a close relationship men are more vulnerable 
    than women, perhaps because women are more used to sharing their
    emotions. That's why I believe it's important for a woman to remember
    that at bottom his pain is the same or perhaps even greater than hers,
    even though his may not find outward expression in the same way hers
    would.
    
    Rebecca 
    

    .36
    
    Excellent, Rebecca I was going to enter EXACTLY the same thing!	
    
    AMEN!  :-)

    P.S.
    
    My Grandmother's wisdom for marriage [remember she was a country girl
    from the hills of Kentucky], married 68 years when Grandpa died:
    
    "Nancy, just one thang I kin tell ya.  Women bend and men break."
    
    

    RE:36

    The two list you supplied state that these are needs, then in the
    second paragraph you state that these are desires. I'm not so sure
    needs and desires are the same. However, looking over both list of
    needs, I see needs under the women's column that men have and ones
    under the men's column that women have. I think you could combine the
    list under one column title "the needs of men and women."
 
    I do believe that men and women are different and they have different
    emotional and physical needs, but its not all cut and dry. There's a little 
    overlap on both sides and its important to know the needs of your
    spouse rather than what you think they need based on some list of what
    specific genders require. To love your spouse means to know your spouse
    and to give yourself to him or her without taking away their own
    person-hood. You must allow them be the person that God intended  them to
    be and they in turn should do the same for you. 


    Peace
    Jim

>    Mark, I agree with what you have explained as what being the head of
>    the family means, however, too often it is interpreted as grounds for
>    domination by husbands over their wives. The title and context of this 
>    note tells  me that it is not always  understood as you explained. 

I could tell you would by the description of your marriage.  However, rather
than attempting to balance things by pushing the pendulum the other way, I
want to state it as it should be according to what is meant to be and not
in terms of reacting to what is (which I suppose there is call for at times).

And congratulations on 22 years, Jim.  15 for me and looking forward to lots
more.  Wish I could spin back the odometer, though, and get more miles out
of my marriage.  I want to enjoy my wife for a long, long, long time.

Mark

    Re: .39
    
    I agree with you - the context for the lists was a sermon on
    affair-proofing your marriage and the lists were taken from a book
    where so many couples had been interviewed and the needs listed were the
    top five for men versus the top five for women.  I agree that were
    the list extended, you would eventually see the same things on both
    lists, but the point was priority placed on them by each sex. And as
    with all such things, it varies with individuals and individual
    couples.
    
    Rebecca                      

>    I agree with you - the context for the lists was a sermon on
>    affair-proofing your marriage and the lists were taken from a book

I have a Sunday School lesson (online) by that title.  I wonder if it 
came from  the same source material.  (I think it is also entered somewhere
in this conference.

MM

    I started a topic about affairs and havent finished entering in all the
    lessons... there's not *that* much more to go, but there is quite a bit
    of typing, which I don't have the at home time to do it right now.
    
    These lists are part of that lesson as well.

    Well folks the first trial came yesterday and I sorta failed the
    test... agape wasn't too present... I coulda kicked myself all the way
    home...
    
    He became unjustly critical of me and even after having had this 
    discussion, I blew up!!!  It was so incredulous that I found myself
    wanting to retreat, take back my Sunday School Class and GIVE UP!
    
    Driving to work this morning, I cried once again reliving the hurt... I
    thought we had dealt with this and things were going to change and man
    within just one week, he was back to biting me again... I had trusted
    him with my heart once again, and it *felt* like I had been violated.
    I felt unsafe..
    
    And he thought he was making a good point. 
    
    After Matthew's baseball game tonight I went alone over to Rafael's
    house and poured my heart out once again, letting him know just how
    incredibly painful his action/words had been to me.
    
    And folks, he was reasonable... and apologized.  WOW!
    What a difference, I couldn't believe it...  We talked in depth about
    his need to put me down... and you know we actually got to the root of
    it... it was the divorce.  The divorce was the ultimate put-down,
    rejection of himself and he developed such a strong resentment of me,
    that he took every opportunity to give it back.
    
    I asked him the question how long did he thing he needed to punish "us"
    for this false belief?  And we established it was a false belief... I
    hadn't done anything to him in the divorce that wasn't true... no lies,
    no fabricated, blown out of proportion stories, plain, simple facts of
    truth.  As painful as it was for him to look at himself and realize
    again the insanity his alcoholism created, and my co-dependency
    prolonged, he did it.
    
    We made some headway tonight at being friends....  He listened,
    acknowleged and discerned what some of the next steps need to be in our
    communication.
    
    Keep praying folks... I keep shaking my head in wonder at what God is
    doing...
    
    

    re:44
    
    I'll be praying for you and Rafael, Nancy.
    
     Jim

    Nancy - 
    one step backwards, two steps forward!

    I just shared this with someone offline and thought I'd post it in here
    as well.  Nehemiah is a great Biblical example of a leader.  This
    applies to fathers, pastors, and even managers in the workplace.  This
    outline applies to Nehemiah's example on how to lead in Nehemiah 5:14-19.

1. Don't live above the people, be on the same level as them (v. 14)
2. Don't use those entrusted to your care, don't take advantage of your
   position (v. 14-15).
3. Don't domineer over the people (v. 15).  See also 1 Peter 5:3 and
   Matthew 20:25.
4. A good leader has fear/respect of God (v. 15).  See Psalm 111:10 also.  This
   respect for God kept Nehemiah from abusing his fame.
5. Don't isolate yourself from the people of God (v. 17)
6. Continue to sacrifice (v. 17-18).  Nehemiah continued to pay for his own
   meals.  He didn't accept gifts where not appropriate.
7. Look forward to God's reward (v. 19).  See also Hebrews 6:10.

hope this helps,
Mike

Appropos of that, Mike,

One thing about leadership .... an appointment should recognise what a 
person already is; not what you expect them to become.  The passages on 
deacons and elders aren't targets for them to achieve once they are 'voted 
in', but a standard against which they can be compared to see if they 
should be acknowledged in the office.

I've heard a few people suddenly become very heavy and long winded in their 
prayers about the time they're apointed to the eldership ... ;-}

Though there is also an aspect of the LORD giving ability for the task 
according to the need.

An essential part of the Nehemiah qualities is knowing that we are all 
people; equal before God.  None are elevated above the rest, though we can
show appreciation to those who live the LORD before us.  However, to accept
honour from men is a disgrace before God, because the honour and glory
really does belong to Him.

An interesting result is the way that Ezra (9:6) and Daniel (9:4) identify
themselves before the LORD with the sins of the people, repenting with them
and on their behalf, even though we can be sure that they did not
participate in them.  An interesting contrast to Nehemiahs distress 
(13:22,:29), in underlining his own separation from the failings of the 
people.


							Andrew