Conference yukon::christian_v7

    I'm not sure I know what you're having trouble with, but hopefully
    sharing my understanding of the Phillipians verse will help...
    
    If you go on to read Php. 2:13 you see that it's really God who is
    working in us. So the first thing to realize is that although v12 tells
    us to work out our own salvation, v13 makes it clear that the
    Christian's salvatation is actually being effected by God.
    
    The second thing to understand is what the term "salvation" actually
    means. The process of salvation really encompasses three phases. There
    is the justification phase, which is a point in time where God declared
    us free from sin's penalty. The second phase is the ongoing process of
    sanctification, whereby we are daily conforming to the image of Christ.
    Because He lives in us, the sanctification frees us from sin's power.
    (Whereas the unsaved are literally unable to resist sinning, the
    Christian, inasmuch as he submits himself to the leading of the Spirit,
    is able to resist sinning - we sin because we *choose* to.) The final
    phase of the salvation process is that of glorification - when we are
    gone from this world, living with God and free from sin's very
    presence.
    
    Back to the text, then, I believe that Php. 2:12-13 is talking about
    the sanctification phase. Yes, God has justified us, and yes, He will
    glorify us, but we are commanded to give the Spirit control so that we
    can "work out our (sanctification) salvation" to become more Christlike.
    
    	BD�

    (Well, while I was preparing this resposne, Barry got his in first. :-)
    But, I'll put it in as I had it.)
    
    I tend to agree with a 3-fold view of salvation, although I am careful
    to do so, as there may be some who have build a doctrine around this
    that I might not agree with.  My view:  our spirits are saved in the
    day that we believe (we pass from death into life).  That being done,
    the battle is over our souls -- God desires to form us with a capacity
    to appreciate the eternal, while Satan wants to submerge us under and
    satisfy us with the things of this life.  Our hope (Rom 8:23-25) is in
    the resurrection of our bodies.
    
    Now, the work must be done by God.  However, we must be diligent in our
    pursuit of His ways.  Thus, our part is to maintain a close and
    obedient walk with the Saviour, to "grow in grace, and in the knowledge
    of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." (2 Pet. 3:18)  While we do so,
    God is able to "Make you perfect in every good work to do his will,
    working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight...." (Heb. 13:21)
    
    Mark L.

Thanks Barry,

It's the "choice" that I wish I didn't have the power over, that God would in
His grace, even take that away. Being sometimes in a Romans 7 scenerio, and
having a better relational experience with the "pleasures of sin", than the
current "denial of self" gaining not only things I cannot see or feel, but also
"suffering" of not getting what "I" want, it's too easy to choose "my will, over
His will", even though, I pray for His will in ALL things, and do the Roamns
12:1,2 thing, daily.

What is gained "in the visable sense" of "dying to self"? I don't feel
different, except miserable that the flesh isn't getting what it likes, and it
seems God only says..."Let's move on to the next thing for you to give up that
you like that I don't approve of." I should be thankful, that He is willing to
love me "just as I am, and also enough to not let me stay that way", but death
to self, without *seeing* "more of Him, and Less of me", is meaningless.

It's a tough place to be...must be the valley of the shadow of death to self or
soemthing. Certainly is a dry and dusty place. I desire for more of Him, and
less of me, but it seems so incredibly painstakingly slow, that there is no
pleasure in it at all. And being me, with such pityful shortsightedness, can't
see "through the darkness", enough to see what God is doing. But then again, not
being my own any longer, what business is it of mine, anyway?

Bob

    Hi folks,
    
    I've just started peeking at the Christian notes file a couple of weeks
    ago and haven't had the courage to get involved. But I felt a burst of
    courage today and I am taking the opportunity to get involved before I
    chicken out.
    
    Anyways, I believe that a way of reading "...work out your salvation.."
    could be read in the same way as "...work out your marriage..." 
    I know I am saved, and, I have been working out my salvation. In the 
    same way, I am married, and my wife and I have been working out our 
    marriage for the past 18 years.  And in both cases the rewards have
    been a blessing to our lives.
    
    Oleg
        

 I read a commentary on Philipians 2:12 that said that the context of 
 that passage relates to the church working out its salvation..meaning
 that if the church in Philipi was to survive that they needed to work out
 the "bugs" if you will, that had been plaguing it..that the salvation 
 referred to in this passage did not relate to one's soul, but the preservation
 of the church...



 I don't necessarily agree, but I recall reading that somewhere.  Hopefully
 my Sunday school class will get to that verse one of these days...we've been
 in Philipians since December and we've gotten as far as chapter 1, verse 12.




 JIm

    Thats a great analogy, Oleg - thanks! Now don't be a chicken any more ;-)
    
    	BD�

    Thanks for your encouragement Barry,
    Oleg

Ditto to Dysert.  Thanks Oleg.

Fellow Chicken (not)
Mark M.

    Thanks to you all for your answers. It cleared up my misunderstanding
    of the text. May God bless you all richly!
    
    Bob

He who is not in Christ Jesus is dead in his sin and unable to respond to God.
Only God's grace can make him righteous and justify him; there is nothing which
he can do to merit his initial justification.

However, once a person is in Christ Jesus, and is regenerated, God restores his
free will and enables him, by His grace, to now cooperate with God's grace, and
to grow in sanctification.  Our goal, once we are in Christ Jesus, is to
cooperate with God's grace and be obedient to Christ through that grace.
Because of God's grace, we are able to do this. Ultimately, nothing that we do
is based on our own merit, because we can do nothing without God's grace, and
we are helpless on our own. However, God gives us the grace to be able to obey
him and choose righteousness.  He enables us to make a choice, and He expects
us to respond and choose life.  We must persevere in righteousness and
obedience; if not, we will not be saved.  Let no one say that we cannot be
obedient, because through Christ's sacrifice and by His grace, he has enabled
us to obey Him. "But now that you have been set free from sin and have become
slaves to God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is
eternal life." (Romans 6:22) To deny that God has enabled us, by His grace and
atoning sacrifice, to obey Him, is to imply His grace is inefficacious and that
He demands the impossible.

1 John 2:3: "We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.
The man who says, 'I know him,' but does not do what he commands is a liar,
and the truth is not in him.  But if anyone obeys His word, God's love is
truly made complete in him.  This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims
to live in him must walk as Jesus did."  

1 John 3:24: "Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them.  And
this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us."

Hebrews 5:8f: "Although he was a son, he learned obedience from what he
suffered and, once made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation for
all who obey him . . ."

"Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.  For if God did not spare the natural
branches, he will not spare you either.  Consider therefore the kindness
and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you,
provided that you continue in his kindness.  Otherwise, you also will be
cut off. " (Romans 11:21)  

1 Tim 4:15f: "Be diligent in these matters; give yourself wholly to them, so
that everyone may see your progress.  Watch your life and doctrine closely.
Persevere in them, because if you do, you will save both yourself and your
hearers."

John 15:5: "I am the vine, you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I
in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone
does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers;
such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. If you remain in
me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given
you.  This is to my Father's glory, that you bear much fruit, showing
yourselves to be my disciples."

Those who remain in Christ bear much fruit; but in order to remain in Christ,
we must be obedient. John 3:36: "He who believes in the Son has eternal life;
but he who does not obey the Son shall not see life."  The Holy Spirit comes to
those who obey, Acts 5:32, and we are prepared to do good works by Christ (Eph
2:10).  Through Christ's death and Resurrection, we have been freed from
slavery to sin, and freed from the power of death; freed in order that we might
now be obedient, and that we might now have the grace to respond to God and
grow in righteousness. "So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed"
(John 8:36)

Hebrews 6:7 "Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces
a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But
the land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of
being cursed. In the end it will be burned." (v. 7-8)

God's grace is like rain: there is no way that plants can "merit" rain or even
cause it to fall.  Yet, some plants respond to the rain and grow, and others,
receiving the same amount of rain, do not grow.  How we respond to God's grace
is up to us: if we receive it, and bear fruit, we will be saved; if not, we
will be cursed and burned.

Thus I reject the notion of an entirely passive salvation, which teaches that
God does everything and man does nothing.  God, through His grace, makes man
alive and restores His free will, so that we might no longer be slaves to sin,
but slaves to righteousness.  Thus, in a way, God deserves all the glory and
credit because everything relies on his grace, and we can do nothing without
that grace.  Yet God's grace can be accepted and used to bear fruit, or
rejected.  So we do cooperate in our own sanctification: God enables us to do
so, but God's grace always comes first and is never merited.  The gift is free,
but it has to be received and unwrapped!

In no way, though, can we merit our own salvation; we can merit only our
condemnation, and we do so by being grievously disobedient when God has given
us the grace to obey.  Granted, God, for his own inscrutable purposes,
sometimes withholds His grace so that we are not fully free to obey; this is
not what brings us condemnation.  What brings us condemnation is when we reject
the grace of God and choose evil even when he has given us the grace to choose
righteousness.

The key to finding life, then, is to trust in God's mercy and grace and to
respond to his grace, through obedience, with all of our hearts, insofar as we
are able to do so.  We must seek the Lord and His righteousness with all of our
strength, responding to His grace, striving to do His will, and persevering in
all things.  There is no need to fear, for "perfect love drives out fear."
When we feel enslaved to sin, or attacked by the enemy, we need only to trust
all the more in God and open ourselves more and more to His grace. Above all we
must never conclude that we do not need to obey God because we are unable, for
this is contrary to Scripture.  God looks at the heart; as long as we seek to
obey by His grace, even if we fail to obey, He will have mercy.  

This is how I interpret Philippians: we work out our salvation by receiving
God's unmerited grace and cooperating with it so that we might bear fruit. It
is not merely a matter of God working in us without our cooperation, as if God
were unable to enliven us and free us from sin, nor is it a matter of God
working through the church but not in our own personal salvation.  God takes
the initiative, enables us to respond, and then we accept the grace, responding
and cooperating, remaining in the vine, receiving the sap, so that we might
bear fruit.

  
  Hi Eric

  There is another point of view of which you are probably aware and on the 
  surface there is agreement with what you have said : that those who "fail 
  of the grace of  God" are lost. The difference is this. Conviction of sin 
  does not always lead to true faith in Christ and His salvation. Along the 
  way of the revelation of personal sin, many come into the Church and have 
  an appearance of an apparent posession of faith and even give profession to 
  that end. At some point in time however they leave off their belief system 
  and "fail" of the grace of God. The reformed position is that these were 
  never saved in the first place, some of them ran quite a distance toward 
  Christ and gave (for a  season) a radiant testimony. Those who are truly 
  Christs will come to Him (all the way) and *cannot* fail of the grace of God.

  "But we are not those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe
   to the saving of the soul" Hebrews 10:39 NKJV.

  And what of those who "fail" ? They have been appointed by God to this end...
  (this is a hard saying)

  "For He says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and
   I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion', so then it is 
   not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy"
   Romans 9:15-16.

   then in a negative way...

   "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills and whom He wills He hardens
    You will say to me then, why does He find fault? *for who has resisted His
    will?*....  does not the potter have power over the clay from the same
    lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"
    Romans 19:19-21
   
    They serve Him this purpose...

    "For what if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known
     endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath *prepared for
     destruction* that He might make known the riches of His glory on the
     vessels of mercy, which He *prepared beforehand* for glory".
     Romans 9:22-23.
    

    Hi Oleg and Welcome!
    
    That was a GREAT analogy and whenever your feeling chicken again, just
    do what I do, "Bawwwk bawk-bawk-bawk Bawwwwk" :-) :-)
    
    BTW, that's how my chicken sounds here in California, however, having
    Chinese roommates, I can tell Chinese chickens have another language.
    
    :-)
    
    Nancy

> There is another point of view of which you are probably aware and on the
> surface there is agreement with what you have said : that those who "fail of
> the grace of God" are lost. The difference is this. Conviction of sin does
> not always lead to true faith in Christ and His salvation.

This is certainly true.

> At some point in time however they leave off their belief system and "fail"
> of the grace of God. The reformed position is that these were never saved in
> the first place, some of them ran quite a distance toward Christ and gave
> (for a season) a radiant testimony. Those who are truly Christs will come to
> Him (all the way) and *cannot* fail of the grace of God.

I don't think the position that _all_ who are ultimately lost were never saved
in the first place agrees with Scripture.

"Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.  For if God did not spare the natural
branches, he will not spare you either.  Consider therefore the kindness and
sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided
that you continue in his kindness.  Otherwise, you also will be cut off. "
(Romans 11:21)

Hebrews 3:12: "See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving
heart that turns away from the living God.  But encourage one another daily, as
long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's
deceitfulness.  We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end
the confidence we had at first."

2 Tim 2:13 "If we died with him, we will also live with him; if we endure, we
will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will disown us; if we are
faithless, he will remain faithful, for he cannot disown himself."

I do not think that the Reformed position is demanded by Scripture, nor even
do I think it is admissible.

It is in fact possible that God predestines some to salvation, and that these
he guarantees will never be lost, and will never "fail" the grace of God.
It is even acceptable to say that all who are ultimately saved are so
predestined.  St. Thomas Aquinas of the 11th century taught this.  However,
this does not necessarily mean that no one else was ever in the grace of God,
nor does it mean that God does not give sufficient grace to all people to be
saved, nor does it mean that God did not desire that all people be saved.

> "But we are not those who draw back to perdition, but of those who believe
> to the saving of the soul" Hebrews 10:39 NKJV.

Yes, but I don't think St. Paul meant to say that EVERY believer is among those
who believe unto salvation.  He was exhorting those he was addressing to be
numbered among those who believe to salvation.  In this statement, he ADMITS
that it is possible to draw back and be condemned, which actually disproves the
Reformed position.

>   And what of those who "fail" ? They have been appointed by God to this
>   end...  (this is a hard saying)

No, not at all.  This is incompatible with the notion that God wants ALL MEN to
be saved (1 Tim 2:4), nor does he want ANYONE to perish (2 Peter 3:9).

The fact that God predestines some to salvation does not mean that he
predestines the rest to perdition, nor that he makes it impossible for them to
be saved.  Calvinists make the error of believing that God always intends to
do what He wills; they conclude that whatever God wills to do, he also intends
to accomplish, and this leads them to the error of concluding that since God
does not save all men, he must never have willed that all men be saved.  But if
God is truly sovereign, if He is truly powerful, then he is able to will one
thing but intend to do another.

>   "Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills and whom He wills He hardens
>   You will say to me then, why does He find fault? *for who has resisted His
>   will?*....  does not the potter have power over the clay from the same
>   lump to make one vessel for honor and another for dishonor?"

But plainly it is not God's will that some should perish; this is refuted by
Scripture. God hardens hearts, but he does not make it impossible for one to be
saved. Rather, those who have freely chosen disobedience are used by God to
show His glory.

God's will cannot be resisted only when he intends to accomplish it
efficaciously.  God can also will something without actually accomplishing it.
God wills that I be punished for my sins, but thankfully, because of His mercy,
he does not accomplish it.

>    "For what if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known
>     endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath *prepared for
>     destruction* that He might make known the riches of His glory on the
>     vessels of mercy, which He *prepared beforehand* for glory".

The Greek word for "prepared" does not mean "created" or predestined; rather,
it means more along the lines of "adjusted" or "fixed" or "fitted."  In other
words, this verse does not mean that God predestines some for destruction, or
created them from the beginning for this purpose: it means that those who are
disobedient of their own free will are "adjusted" -- after their disobedience
-- for destruction.  Cf. where Paul says that God gave the immoral over to
"shameful lusts".  In fact, it is even possible that what is meant by this is
not that GOD prepares them for destruction, but that they prepare THEMSELVES
for destruction by their wicked deeds.  God is not the author of evil.  He
gives and withholds mercy, but the evil that men do belongs only to themselves
and not to God.

Eric

    Hi,
    
    All this is well and good. It seems the answer, once again, is knowing
    the Word (written), and asking the Word (Logos, Living Word, Jesus) to
    change the things in an individual that is unpleasant to Him.
    
    This is *NOT* easy. Death to self (flesh) is painful, sorrowful,
    suffering. *AND* the flesh, does *NOT* wnat to die. It kicks, cries,
    screams, complains, and moans and groans when it is faced with a choice
    of dying to itself, or living unto God. (this is from current experience)
    
    Over the weekend I was told of an excellent analogy of the struggle
    that goes on within the individual.
    
    There was an indian brave, who was encountering the struggle of the
    inner self, against the outer things. He went to the chief, an old and
    wise man, and asked him what to do. The chief said "Young brave, it is
    like a fight, between a white dog, and a black dog. It will be as such
    all of your life." The brave replied "Yes chief, this is how it seems,
    as if a battle is raging, but, how does one decide which dog will win?"
    To which the chief replied, "The dog you feed, will be the dog that
    wins."
    
    This is all too true. Currently, in my life, the black dog is trying to
    convince the white dog that it is futile, as he has been fed for nearly
    38 years, he is much stronger. The white dog, knowing that "greater is
    He that is in me, than he that is in the world", can only sit in the
    corner, waiting for the reality of the Word to become evident.
    
    In another area, the black dog is trying to convince the white dog,
    that the pleasures of sin outweigh the denial of self. After all, what
    do you get by denying self, except the misery of not experiencing
    pleasure? After all, all your rewards are invisible, and you can't have
    them here in this life anyway? And you can't touch, feel, see, smell,
    or taste them. Not to mention, your tiny brain cannot percieve the
    things of God, as they are spiritual, and you are carnal. It requires
    faith, the substance of things not seen. And all that reading you're
    supposed to do, well, isn't it boring? When you know you can have the
    excitement of pleasures?
    
    As the battle rages, somewhere in His love, by His grace, falling, yet
    being held up by His faithfullness...waiting to see what it's like to
    be "more than conquerers", rather than more than conquered.
    
    Bob
    
    

    
    re: -1
    
    > This is *NOT* easy.  Death to self (flesh) is painful, sorrowful,
    suffering.  *AND* the flesh, does *NOT* want to die.  It kicks, cries,
    screams, complains, and moans and groans when it is faced with a choice
    of dying to itself, or living unto God. (this is from current
    experience)
    
    
    I call this the "twist-and-shout syndrome".  When I'm in a place, a 
    position, that God has put me in that I DON'T want to be in, I go 
    through this series of internal 'fits', which I liken to a child who
    has been put to bed that doesn't want to be there.  First they try
    to be "extra-good" hoping mom & dad will have a change of heart and
    let them stay up later.  ("God isn't going to test me this way - I've
    been really good lately.")  When they find this won't happen, they start
    whining, begging, pleading to be allowed to stay up.  (At this point,
    the writing's on the wall, that yes, this is the path I'm on, I don't
    like it, and what do I need to do God, to get off it?)  When this doesn't
    work, they throw a full tantrum.  ("God, I'll do ANYTHING if you'll
    just spare me this confrontation/embarrassment/fill-in-the-blank!")
    At this point the child is put to bed, crying and screaming, until, due
    to exhaustion, they fall asleep.  ("Ok, God, I give up/see it your way)
    
    And then, the peace comes! (What's the scripture about being
    thankful/having joy in all circumstances?)  Because after all the 
    maneuvers, we decide to trust/obey Him and because of His strength 
    we are able to do the un-doable.
    
    Karen

    .15
    
    Amen Karen.  Good note.  There have been times in my life where what I
    know *seems* safer, then what I don't know.  Though what I don't know
    most of the time is better for me.  
    
    That is why so many women stay in abusive situations.  They find
    themselves clinging to what is familiar because it is safe.
    
    Sin can have the same effect.  I know this is sin, but I'm comfortable
    with it [Satan's deception] and to give this up is more scarey then to
    stay in it.
    
    All too often Satan wins at this game.
    
    

  Re Eric .13

  Hi Eric,

  First, I like "reformed" rather than "Calvinist". I agree that Calvin was
  extreme in his view, and the position that I expressed in .11 is somewhat 
  extreme.

  Actually this is a matter of preference with me, not settled conviction.

  That the lost are "appointed" (this term is used somewhere in the NT - Ill
  look it up). My own problem with this doctrine is that it presents Our 
  Father as cold and cruel. On the other hand I always end up here (Romans) 
  when going down the path of deduction (of the Scripture). Then again, one
  can take a different path (Hebrews) deducing that the "lost" have chosen 
  their final state. Apparently both are taught.

  My feeling is that God pre-disposed the "lost" this way - to choose to 
  reject Him. I dont know any other way to reconcile God's sovereignty with 
  Man's "free will". In other words our "free will" is only apparent. But, 
  like I said  this is not a strong conviction.

  I like Bob's statement in .14 "our tiny brain cannot perceive the things of
  God". I dont trouble myself (or others) about this matter anymore, unless
  (as in this notes file) it crosses my path.

  Another little story :  

  A young missionary, requested an audience with an idol worshipping tribal 
  chief to preach the gospel of the "useen God"  to Him. Very well, I'll
  meet you at the rising of the sun tomorrow and listen. Wanting to impress
  the chief, the missionary said, btw chief, did you know that the sun dosn't
  really rise? The earth is actually spherical and rotates on its axis, giving
  the impression that the sun rises. Forget it said the chief, if you can't 
  believe what your eyes can see, why should I listen to what you believe
  about what you can't see?

  I guess there are two points. 1) the missionary was both right and wrong.
  2) Maybe we are the "natives" , maybe (like Bob alluded to) there is another
  explanation which we dont have the faculties to understand (yet).

  Well, concerning some of your responses :

  Romans 11:21 This is a warning to the Gentiles as a "nation" regarding Israel
  that they too can be set aside of God (as a group entity).
  
  Others : We can go the way of "saved" but have Our Father's disapproval.

  There is a difference in the scriptures between the destruction of the soul
  and the destruction of the flesh (imo). Sometimes the Scripture appears to be 
  speaking of the final state of the lost, but in reality is something to the
  effect of "they shall be saved, yet so as by fire". Or as Paul, who says
  of certain individuals that they have been delivered up for the destruction
  of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved. I think this failure to discern
  contributes to the disagreement between OSAS and non_OSAS folks.

  Conversly the term "saved" does not necessarily mean soul salvation. For 
  instance Paul says that the woman shall be "saved" through child-bearing
  (actually this is child-rearing, more than the act of giving birth) in
  context and in english, it would be better to translate (imo) "she will be 
  sanctified" through motherhood and child-rearing. Paul apparently viewed
  our sanctification as the earthly end-product of salvation (our part) and 
  though we might have been justified (God's part) by faith in Christ if we 
  remain unsanctified or are not moving positively in that direction then 
  (though we have eternal life) we have "failed" of the  grace of God not 
  procuring (as you allude) His sanctifying grace and not carrying through 
  to the end "be ye holy as I am holy". After all, our salvation is primarily 
  for God's benefit.

  I think to say  1) You can be saved and then lost again and 
  2) You can end up lost, because you wern't saved in the first place (but
  thought you were) are two different ways of the saying the same thing :

   In reality you cant really know (though OSAS folks might not admit to this).

                     Hank

>  My feeling is that God pre-disposed the "lost" this way - to choose to 
>  reject Him.

I don't buy this.  Ever read Wesley's sermon on Free Grace?  I believe it is
entered here in this conference, and if you can't find it, send me mail.
You can have your choice of TXT or PS format.

A choice is a choice.  A predisposition leaves an opening for choosing 
against the predisposition, but this is not the Calvinist view which 
says that they have no choice but to choose to be lost.

In this, the doctrine is correct: we are ALL predisposed to be lost as it
says in Romans 3:23: "All have sinned..." which means that all have chosen 
rebellion and its resulting judgment.  But God is not willing that any should 
perish.  He has given humanity the power of choice: free will.  He has set the
condition before us in John 3:16: Whosoever believes...

Each person has the opportunity and if there are some who do not have the
opportunity or never had the opportunity, then the Bible is not true.
I know this last sentence is a difficult one because we know the Bible is
true, and that all people that fall into "whosoever" will be given an
opportunity to believe.  How?  That's not really up to you or me, is it?
We have our marching orders.

Read "Free Grace"; good sermon.

Mark

>  I think to say  1) You can be saved and then lost again and 
>  2) You can end up lost, because you wern't saved in the first place (but
>  thought you were) are two different ways of the saying the same thing :


(BTW, I liked the missionary story.)

I agree that the OSAS and FFG camps do come at the same issue from 
different directions.  I don't think they're saying the same thing
but they are very similar.

The reason OSAS and FFG doesn't fit nicely together is because this is
an intersection of the mortal and the immortal, the finite with the infinite.
God is timeless and we are bound by time.

Does God see how we will choose?  yes.
Do we see how we will choose?  no, until we do.
If God knows we will choose destruction, why doesn't he stop us
  and why did he make us?
  You and I do not know and have the choice to make.  That choice is
  what enables us to love God back, or to reject God.  In order for us
  to be able to love God for Who he is, there must be choice; even the 
  choice to reject.  We each have the opportunity.  God may know how we
  will choose, but it does not release us from *the responsibility of choosing!*

Because we have choice, we can choose God and later reject Him.  In the
scheme of eternity (timelessness), when it is all over, you were not saved,
but in the scheme of time (human finitude) you were forgiven of your sins
according to the Scriptures but later chose to reject the gift by rejecting
His Word (sinning).  The intersection of time and eternity is a difficult
paradox to understand, but we can understand our side of the context
and we are responsible for it.

Mark

  Re .18 ; .19

  Mark, 

  HELP!

  My brain went into a recursive loop!

  :-)  :-)  :-)

  Like I said, I dont trouble myself anymore with this black hole (for me).

  I dont know why Jesus saved me.  But Im glad He did.
  I dont know why Jesus loves me.  But Im glad He does.
  I dont know why Jesus is coming for me. But Im glad He is.

  It simpler this way.

      Hank

I agree with Mark in that _all_ are "pre-disposed" to be lost, not just some.
This is the result of the fall of Adam.

However, due to God's mercy and the redemption of Jesus Christ, in which Christ
redeemed _all_ people, God has granted sufficient grace to each and every person
to permit them to be saved.  Yet, because of predestination and God's will, it 
is acceptable to say that to some people God grants special grace so that they
do not fail to come to Christ, and receive salvation -- but this always works
in conjunction with their will, and not against it.  Hence all have the 
opportunity to be saved, but God's mercy and grace is not distributed equally
so that some people receive more help than others towards salvation: some God
may predestine absolutely to be saved, while others God does not prevent from
being saved, but grants them just enough grace to open the door to salvation.
Of these, some may perish because of their own sins; others may turn to God and
be saved even though they were not absolutely predestined to this.

> That the lost are "appointed" (this term is used somewhere in the NT - Ill
> look it up). 

The term "appointed" is used, but not in relation to predestination to
damnation -- I have some pretty strong Calvinist material, and the most
compelling verse I can find is the one in Romans about being "fitted for
destruction", and as I've explained, the word "fitted" does not imply created
from the beginning for this, but rather modified for this: not created for
destruction, but modified for destruction.

You may be thinking of the case of Judas in John 17:12, "none has been lost
except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled."
Even if one were to argue that this is a predestination to damnation, this is a
unique and limited case, and one cannot argue that what was true of Judas is
necessarily true of any other.  The KJV says, "but the son of perdition; that
the scripture might be fulfilled."

> ... On the other hand I always end up here (Romans) when going down the path
> of deduction (of the Scripture). Then again, one can take a different path
> (Hebrews) deducing that the "lost" have chosen their final state. Apparently
> both are taught.

I don't think so.  I think the verses which are used to defend predestination
to damnation are misinterpreted and taken out of context.  They are certainly
very rare.

Regarding the meaning of "saved", yes, I have heard many argue that the verses
which talk about people being "cut off" or appear to speak of people losing
their salvation actually refer to the death of the body, and not the death of
the soul, i.e., those who sin and are disobedient may lose their lives as
punishment but not their souls.  IMHO in many cases this is Biblical eisigesis
-- reading into Scripture what you want to see there.  Often people who do this
do not objectively determine that this is the intended meaning of the Scripture
-- they merely use it to "disarm" the verse from being used to disprove their
doctrine.  It is no doubt true that in some cases when Scripture refers to
salvation it is not speaking of eternal salvation, but we have to use the
context to prove that in each case, Scripture really meant salvation other than
soul salvation.

 Re .21 Eric

 Hi Eric,

 well, I found the "appointed" vss I had mentioned :

 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through
 our Lord Jesus Christ   I Thess 5:9 NKJV.

 I know this only implies that others are "appointed to wrath". However :

 Therefore to you who believe He is precious, but to those who are
 disobedient "the stone which the builders rejected has become the 
 chief cornerstone" and "a stone of stumbling and a rock of offense"
 they stumble being disobedient to the word to which they were also
 appointed.  I Peter 2:7-8. 

 These who stumble and become disobedient were (past tense) "appointed" 
 to that end. Now exactly where in time (or out of it) were they appointed?
 There is room for several views; concurrent with the "predestining" of the
 elect (from the foundation of the world) is one of them. Also they perhaps 
 were "appointed" at the moment in time when the "disobedience" (presumably
 upon hearing the Gospel) was committed. The Romans passage also would allow 
 the possiblity of concurrency with predestining.

 The word itself (tithemi) has no special nuance to indicate the moment of
 the appointing. The Duoay-Rheims has "to which they were destined".
 I dont know the Latin word that is used for "destined".

 Paul uses this word of himself as one who was "appointed" as an apostle.
 (II Timothy 1:11).
 
 I would conclude that the Reformed position (Re: our discussion) is 
 an extreme rather than an error, since it is within the realm of actual
 possiblity (concurrent with the predestiny of the elect) of the wording of 
 these Scriptures. 
 
 My leaning is toward the Reformed view, but as I said its not a settled
 conviction and I rarely trouble myself about it (anymore).


                Hank

> For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through
> our Lord Jesus Christ   I Thess 5:9 NKJV.
>
> I know this only implies that others are "appointed to wrath". However :

Does "us" mean the "whosoever" of John 3:16?  If so, from where does your
implication come?  Yes, I know that he is speaking to "brethren" and so may
even concede that "us" implies a them.  But God may not appoint us to
wrath and God may not appoint them to wrath just as easily by implication.

The active part of this verse is what God HAS appointed "us" to obtain
salvation.  The question is then why has he appointed us to salvation
(and by implication: them to wrath)?

John 3:16 may give the answer: "whosoever believes" is appointed to obtain
salvation.  That's the us part.  Whosoever rejects or disbeleives is
appointed to wrath.

Is not the cart before the horse to say that whoever is appointed to wrath is
the one who will disbelieve and reject Christ?  The appointment is 
PREDICATED on the choice to obtain salvation (through faith) or to 
reject the gospel.

Mark

  Re 448.23 Mark

  Re John 3:16ff (35) > from where does your implication come?

  Vs 3:18;35 NKJV : 

   but he who does not believe is condemned already (pre-condition)

   He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does
   not believe the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.

   abides = remains. (as a pre-conditioned retribution).  

  This is forceful language for predispositioning or appointing as an active 
  decree on Our Father's part (either way).

  I certainly concede the possiblity of God "foreknowing" each person's
  choice and "appointing" on that basis. Though Im not personally inclined 
  to this position.

  Technically, the reformed position states that Our Father "Chose by specific
  individual election"  those who would be saved and "passed by" the others 
  "appointing" them (by a general decree) to wrath. His choice was made with
  an unknown criteria "after the counsel of His own good pleasure".
  There are variations of this amongst Calvinist. 

  There seems to be an intuitive resistance against this on-the-surface
  interpretation of the scriptures. Perhaps there is a better explanantion 
  which needs to wait until "we see Him as He is".

                      Hank  

>   He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does
>   not believe the son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.
>
>   abides = remains. (as a pre-conditioned retribution).  
>
>  This is forceful language for predispositioning or appointing as an active 
>  decree on Our Father's part (either way).

Are we agreeing?  The unbeliever is appointed to wrath, and will not see
life (eternity in heaven) but eternity in hell.  The point I disagree with 
is that God picks who will or will not believe.  This is the antithesis of
what "believing" is, which is a choice to believe or to not believe.
If God chooses what we will believe that we have no choice but to believe 
or not.  And that's not user input, that's hardware or firmware and God
didn't design automatons, last I understood it.

MM

  but if God didnt order and decree everything then He's not sovereign.
  
  > The point I disagree with is that God picks who will or will not
    believe...

  "I have chosen you, you have not chosen me"

  "You will say to me then, why does He find fault? for who has 
   resisted His will?...does not the potter have power over the clay
   from the same lump to make one vessel for honor and another for
   dishonor?"

  Personally, the important thing for me is that a brother or sister
  believes. Not whether they are right or wrong as to how they got there.

  And besides, like I said, there's probably a different reality than from
  what we see or think.

  Admittedly, The weakness in the reformed position is demonstrated by the
  question : then who created the concept of sin?
  
  Personally, (originating in my pyshe somewhere) the dilemma of the 
  apparent contradiction of the free will of man vs the sovereignty of God
  is resolved (in my case) favoring the sovereignty of God and those
  supportive scriptures.

  Not necessarily the correct postion, just the way I am.
  Experimentally, I cant seem to shift it, but I see and understand other
  points of view believed by other brethren.

  > If God chooses what we will believe then we have no choice but to beleive
    or not (true) 
    and thats not user input (also true-salvation is of the Lord)

  but , so what? (with all due respect).

  All that the Father gives me shall come unto me.

  We are robots, slaves to sin *until* we are made free by the Son,
  then we are free indeed.  (there is a modified reformed or Calvinistic 
  view that puts choice here after the freeing of the will, but I'm not 
  inclined to that position, since the scripture indicates that enlightenment
  equals salvation equals freedom).

  
                  Hank

  > If God chooses what we will believe then we have no choice but to beleive
    or not (true) 
    and thats not user input (also true-salvation is of the Lord)

>  but , so what? (with all due respect).
>
>  We are robots, slaves to sin *until* we are made free by the Son,
>  then we are free indeed.  (there is a modified reformed or Calvinistic 
>  view that puts choice here after the freeing of the will, but I'm not 
>  inclined to that position, since the scripture indicates that enlightenment
>  equals salvation equals freedom).

Robots have no capacity for love.  And I believe that the reason the
Calvinists and the Wesleyans have the disconnects is because they don't
see how the interface between God and man (immortal and mortal, eternal
and temporal) can work together.  God chooses and we choose.

Essentially the question is:

How can both predestination and free-will co-exist?

  The fact is, according to the Bible: both exist.  Paradox.
  Calvinists see one side and have difficulty with the other.
  Wesleyans see the other side and have difficulty with the other.
  God sees it all; we don't.

I don't deny predestination, by the way, but I do reject "robotics theology"
and believe that we choose our destiny and fate within the context of the
laws (rules) that God has established from eternity past through eternity
future.  He knows how we will choose because he sees all of time as perhaps
viewing a panoramic picture, but this is NOT the same as causing us to choose
one or the other - we do that with the free will he's given us.

Mark

  I once heard a TULIP preacher explain it (Predestination, free-will) thusly :

  These doctrine are like two seemingly separated islands, but when its all
  said and done we will see that they are connected (under the water)
  and be able to comprehend this apparent paradox.

  Until then : We love Him because He first loved us.

  Hank