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Conference yukon::christian_v7

Title:The CHRISTIAN Notesfile
Notice:Jesus reigns! - Intros: note 4; Praise: note 165
Moderator:ICTHUS::YUILLEON
Created:Tue Feb 16 1993
Last Modified:Fri May 02 1997
Last Successful Update:Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:962
Total number of notes:42902

447.0. "The Cross In The Light of Passion Week" by LUDWIG::BARBIERI (God can be so appreciated!) Fri Apr 01 1994 14:50

      This is for thoughts that relate to Passion week.
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447.1In All This: He Is Concerned for OthersLUDWIG::BARBIERIGod can be so appreciated!Fri Apr 01 1994 14:5169
  Hi,

    There has to be a topic on the cross!  This is Good Friday!

    The thing that I am especially impressed with this Good Friday
    is that Jesus (in the midst of His supreme anguish) repeatedly
    demonstrated concern for others.

    Can you believe it?  Here He is hanging on a cross.  The physical
    pain is indescribable yet the _psychic_ pain so overwhelms the
    physical that I tend to believe He barely felt the physical.

    Jesus Christ was weighed down with all the guilt that a full 
    revelation of evil can muster.  And He _felt_ like He was that
    rascal.

    I had an eye-opening experience yesterday.  It was about 3:30 AM
    and I couldn't sleep so I abided with the word.  Well, one of my
    cats (and I'm a dog person, but that's another story!) was in a
    hyper mood.  He scratched my toes a couple times.  I was getting
    a little aggravated.  And then he jumped and jammed one of his
    claws in my side.  In spontenaity, I growled to him (while picking
    him up): "That's it.  You're out'a here!  You're out of here!!!"
    And I then began to carry him to the back door, opened it, and
    tossed him (not real hard, but certainly harder than necessary)
    outside.

    Immediately guilt welled up in my heart.  As I sat to the word, I
    had the impulse to hurl the Bible and say "What's the use?"  I
    had the impulse to initiate the pagan practise of 'being good' for
    a little bit and then present myself to God for worship.

    And as I sat there, I realized that God loves me unconditionally,
    but also that sin carries a sting.  It was alienating me from God.
    And even though sin was modifying my psyche, I knew that God wanted
    me to worship Him right then and there in the midst of that awful
    alienation.  So praise the Lord, I fought through the deception of
    sin, the influence speaking to the heart to abandon faith and to
    believe God really didn't want to spend any time with Him while a 
    mental awareness of the sting of sin was so fresh.

    Here is Christ and His mind is pressed with a full revelation of that
    ultimate sin...to desire to curse God who is infinite love.  To 
    STRING HIM UP and desire Him eternally condemned "for cursed is any man
    that hangs on a tree."

    And Christ FEELS LIKE HE IS THAT SINNER!  Imagine the alienation that
    He endured!  I mean...I just had a couple naughty words with a cat.
    Jesus feels like He is the rascal that is wishing God Himself eternally
    condemned.

    And in the midst of the full cup...of the full alienation that wells 
    up in the mind as a result of being exposed in its entirety to the
    'evil of evil', Jesus has concern for others!

    He is concerned for His mother and places her in the care of John.  He
    is concerned for the thief at His side.  He is concerned for those who
    have just strung Him up.  Psalm 22 shows Him to be concerned for the
    success of that last generation: "a posterity shall serve Him...they shall
    declare His righteoussness that he has done this"  (Ps 22).

    It wasn't just love demonstrated...it was love demonstrated in the 
    midst of an alienation inherent to a revelation of sin and which would
    consume us.

    How incredible is the love of God that He could bear that burden and
    be OBSESSED with everyone else.

                                                      Tony
447.2Death and ResurrectionLUDWIG::BARBIERIGod can be so appreciated!Fri Apr 01 1994 15:0441
      Hi Again,
    
        Another thought.
    
        Before Jesus died, He cried, "It is finished!"  His work was
        complete.  The sacrifice had ended.
    
        Just a suggestion, but could Christ's physical death and
        resurrection be schoolmasters?  Could they be 'object lessons'
        which are symbols of a reality God is trying to reveal to us?
    
        Paul in Romans 7 says that an awareness of the evil of evil is
        death (all the while he is physcially alive).
    
        Could it be that Jesus' sacrificial death was that psychic battle
        that took place when He endured the fulness of alienation that
        crops up in the mind as a result of being awakened to a sense
        of the evil of evil and to the conviction THAT YOU ARE THAT EVIL
        PERSON?
    
        Romans 7 seems to say so.
    
        And could the cry, "My Father, My Father, why hast Thou forsaken
        Me?" be a mirror into the mind of Christ as he is buffetted back
        and forth with the temptation to submit to this alienation?  After
        all, Corinthians says "God was in Christ reconciling the world unto
        Himself" and Psalm 22 says "Thou hast heard Me" and Psalm 23 says
        "Yea though I walk through the valley of the shadow of _death_, I
        will fear no evil: FOR THOU ART WITH ME; thy rod and thy staff they
        comfort Me."
    
        And when Christ endured this alienation (telling Him to despair) and
        overcame: "Thou hast heard Me"..."It is finished", could this be
        the resurrection of which the physical is a symbolic schoolmaster?
    
        Does not the seventh day Sabbath commemorate a finished work and 
        when Christ cried "It is finished", was not His sacrificial work
        (right then and there) finished?
    
                                                        Tony
                                                   Tony
447.3Matthew 27:27-51TOKNOW::METCALFEEschew Obfuscatory MonikersFri Apr 01 1994 16:4949
Matthew 27

 27  Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the common hall, and
gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.
 28  And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.
 29  And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head,
and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked
him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!
 30  And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.
 31  And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and
put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him.
 32  And as they came out, they found a man of Cyrene, Simon by name: him
they compelled to bear his cross.
 33  And when they were come unto a place called Golgotha, that is to say, a
place of a skull,
 34  They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted
thereof, he would not drink.
 35  And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it
might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments
among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots.
 36  And sitting down they watched him there;
 37  And set up over his head his accusation written, THIS IS JESUS THE KING
OF THE JEWS.
 38  Then were there two thieves crucified with him, one on the right hand,
and another on the left.
 39  And they that passed by reviled him, wagging their heads,
 40  And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three
days, save thyself. If thou be the Son of God, come down from the cross.
 41  Likewise also the chief priests mocking him, with the scribes and
elders, said,
 42  He saved others; himself he cannot save. If he be the King of Israel,
let him now come down from the cross, and we will believe him.
 43  He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he
said, I am the Son of God.
 44  The thieves also, which were crucified with him, cast the same in his
teeth.
 45  Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the
ninth hour.
 46  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli,
Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken
me?
 47  Some of them that stood there, when they heard that, said, This man
calleth for Elias.
 48  And straightway one of them ran, and took a spunge, and filled it with
vinegar, and put it on a reed, and gave him to drink.
 49  The rest said, Let be, let us see whether Elias will come to save him.
 50  Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
 51  And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to
the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
447.4Clarification...LEDS::LOPEZA River.. proceeding!Mon Apr 04 1994 10:2714
re.1


    >Here is Christ and His mind is pressed with a full revelation of that
    >ultimate sin...to desire to curse God who is infinite love.

Tony,

	Not sure what you meant by this. Are you saying that Christ under the
full burden of the cross and the sins He bore assumed a desire to curse God?

	Don't think you meant that did you?

Ace
447.5ClarificationSTRATA::BARBIERIGod can be so appreciated!Mon Apr 04 1994 13:0418
      Hi Ace,
    
        No, but I am saying that while His character was spotless...
        He _felt_ like He was that sinner and so He felt the guilt.
    
        Sort of like Job 9:20,21.
    
        I do believe He took sinful flesh and the dynamics of spiritual
        reality are that as one sees God's love more fully (even if one
        be sinless), via sinful flesh one sees the sinfulness of sin
        more deeply, and (because of sinful flesh) one _feels_ He is 
        that sinner, and consequently is burdened with the guilt that
        naturally follows.  (This would equate to the death spoken of
        in the latter part of Romans 7.)
    
        Good to 'see' you Ace!
    
                                                   Tony
447.6More clarification....LEDS::LOPEZA River.. proceeding!Mon Apr 04 1994 14:0523

	Hi Tony,

	Good to see you're still kicking around too!

	When you say that Christ felt like a sinner and was burdened with the
guilt of sin, are you referring only to the crucifixion or are you referring
prior to the crucifixion or after it? 

	In the Bible record, Christ lived a low and humble life to human
standards. And as you say His character was spotless and I would add that His
very Person was spotless as well. And though He was a man of sorrows, rejected,
etc. I don't see any indication that He "felt like a sinner" and became
"burdened" with guilt *until* the dark hours on the cross when God laid upon Him
the sins of the world. But not prior to those few dark hours on the cross. Is
this what you meant also?

	

Regards,
Ace

447.7I think this is the appropriate topicJULIET::MORALES_NASweet Spirit's Gentle BreezeWed Apr 06 1994 14:2542
    Man, I just got back from the most wonderful 4 day vacation with my two
    boys. I've never felt closer to God then hiking and camping in the
    Yosemite Valley.  
    
    One incredible day when we were hiking on some horse trails in the
    forest, we came upon a tree that was growing strangely.  This tree shot
    straight up for about 10 feet, then curved at a 180 degree angle to the
    left, then it shot straight up again another 20-25 feet where the look
    of a normal leafing began.  Another tree had fallen perpendicular to 
    this tree at exactly the 10 foot marker and rested on a rock behind it.
    
    My oldest Matthew commented that it looked like a cross.  The imagery
    this tree portrayed to us was astrounding.  We all stood speechless
    gazing at its structure for at least a full minute.  Matthew requested
    that we sing  "The Old Rugged Cross" and we did.  The three of our
    voices in unison.  Then we prayed and praised Jesus for another while,
    time was insignificant.  The Spirit of God just came upon all of us as
    tears began to flow down our faces, [all three of us].  We didn't want
    to leave this spot, we just kept lingering there.
    
    As the Spirit moved our hearts we each had a revelation that was deep
    in meaning for our family.  Clayton made the comment that God had
    formed the tree just for us.  Matthew then said that according to the
    size of the base of the tree [approx ring size], it must be at least
    100 years old and that God knew 100 years ago that we would walk this
    path and see this tree.
    
    I then asked the boys if they realized what day it was, Friday, the day
    Christ was crucified on the Cross.  Again, we praised God for this
    wonderful reminder of Easter and what Christ had done for us.
    
    To say nonetheless, the day was a Spirit filled day ending with our
    Travel Journals recounting the event...
    
    Last night I asked the boys what their most favorite part of the
    vacation was [there was a LOT!] And they both said, the Tree that was
    formed to be a cross.  This truly had an impact on my boys.
    
    May the Love of Christ surpass all things,
    Nancy
    
    
447.8JULIET::MORALES_NASweet Spirit's Gentle BreezeWed Apr 20 1994 20:386
    The appropriates notes regarding SARX / Sinful Flesh discussion has
    been moved to the correct topic #80.  It appears as though we've gotten
    off on this subject before.
    
    Nancy
    co-mod Christian