Conference yukon::christian_v7

I've told this to some different people, but I don't think I've ever written
it out before.

This happened at a conference I attented about two years ago.  As background,
I had always had a hard time with the substitutionary atonement of Christ and
the necessity of His death.  It just didn't make any sense to me.  I know
that it's a pretty foundational part of Christianity, but I just couldn't get
hold of it in a way that made sense and that I could relate to.

We were in a time where people were being prayed over, for the filling of the
Holy Spirit or just for empowerment.  I asked to be prayed for.  A group of
people (all strangers) began to pray for me.  After a bit, the hand of the
person behind me, which was on my head, began to shake.  Subtly at first, but
growing in intensity.  I began to feel a powerful sense of the Holy Spirit,
beyond anything I had felt before.  My knees started to tremble and buckle a
bit.  It was all kind of odd, part of me was fully in the experience, and
part of me was like an objective observer.  I remember even within the
experience trying to test whether it was just me in the flesh or something
beyond me.  Anyway, my knees were trembling and I definitely wasn't doing it.
 I didn't feel any particular desire or compulsion to go down, as I'd seen
some people do.  But I became aware that the people around me were becoming
nervous and distracted watching this 280lb man swaying in front of them,
wondering where I would land. :-)  Besides, I didn't know where this was
headed, so I voluntarily sat down on the floor.

People kept praying for me, and all I can describe it as is that I went into
a state of extreme clarity.  My mind and spirit were totally focused, and I
could see the truth of things in a way beyond myself.  Within that clarity,
there came the sensation that God had a word for me, a sense of expectation
that there was something specific here for me.

People kept praying, and I examined everything they prayed from the place of
clarity I was in, to see if it was the thing God had for me.  One person
prayed "Let him release the old fears and resentments."  I didn't think that
was it, that's not something I've struggled with.  But in that state of
clarity I thought "Well, maybe something's there that I don't even know
about."  So I lifted that rock and looked under it.  There was nothing there.
People prayed other things, and some were very nice and helpful, but I knew
none of them was *IT*.  The sense of expectancy grew.

Then the person behind me, the one whose hand began trembling, said one
sentence.  It was a thought I'd heard all my life, but I'd never HEARD it. 
He said it in the first person, and it was Christ speaking to me.  He said:

     "My son, I love you more than you can understand, and I died for you."

It hit me like a freight train.  I ***KNEW*** that it was true.  As I bathed
in that knowledge, the sense of clarity and the powerful sense of the
presence of the spirit lifted, leaving His joy behind.

I don't understand substitutionary atonement one bit better -intellectually -
than I did before.  The reasons most people advance for it don't make sense
to my worldly mind.  But the WHY or the HOW don't matter to me any more.  I
am totally assured of the WHAT - I KNOW, at a level beyond belief, that
Christ died for me.

Paul

    
    You know when your so "right", you're wrong??
    
    Last year about this time, I asked for prayer for my husband's
    family, especially my sister-in-law, who was unmarried and pregnant.
    
    It was a rough time for his family (me too) as we dealt, or tried
    to deal with this situation.
    
    Well, the baby, Ryan, is now 6 months old...despite the fact 
    that his father is no longer in the picture (which is actually 
    a good thing), he is being raised by his mother and his 
    grandparents, as he lives at their home.
    
    A few weeks ago, I was thinking about this situation and all that
    has happened....my s-i-l was not the only person who learned 
    valuable lessons.
    
    In our zeal (mine and others) for the "right thing" to happen 
    (have them get married) I said and did things I probably should
    not have (isn't hindsight a great thing?!) and realized that the
    most important thing I could have showed was mercy and love instead
    of self-righteous judgement. :-(
    
    Happily, I had the chance to spend some time with my s-i-l this past
    Sunday, and we were able to talk about these things, apoligies were
    exchanged, etc. and I think we will be able to build a better 
    relationship.
    
    Once again, God has been faithful in pointing out the areas I 
    need to change.  There's nothing like the feeling of restored
    relationships. 
    
    K
    
    

      Hi,
    
        Yes, there is something I have come to believe that has
        profoundly affected me and that is that the only thing 
        we need to be delivered from is sin.
    
        I was scared to even consider the above, but the more I 
        checked, the more scripture continues to bear this out.
    
        In fact, I have been studying Jeremiah and I have seen even
        more evidence of this awesome truth...
    
        Jeremiah 4:14
        O Jerusalem, wash thine heart from wickedness that thou mayest
        be saved.  How long shall thy vain thoughts lodge within thee?
    
        Redemption is from sin and sin alone and not from a punishment
        God has to give because of sin.  This has just illuminated to
        greater depth a revelation of God's character!
    
        I think my present favorite set of texts on this message that
        has impacted my life are...
    
        Acts 3:25
        Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which
        God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy 
        seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.
    
        Galatians 3:8
        And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen
        through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham saying
        in thee shall all nations be blessed.
    
        The Galatians text reveals to us that the Acts 3:25 is speaking
        of 
    
                    o justification by faith
    
                    o the preaching of the gospel
    
        Acts 3:25 reveals that it speaks of
    
                    o the covenant
    
                    o the blessing
    
        In other words, it speaks of the entirety of the plan of
        redemption.  Let us see just what this blessing is...
    
        Acts 3:26
        Unto you first God, having raised up His Son Jesus, sent Him
        to bless you, 
    
        _in turning away every one of you from his iniquities_.
    
    
        WHAT A REVELATION!  God doesn't require a judicial punishment
        for sin!  He has no need.  His government, His _law_ needs no
        requirement for itself for "agape seeketh not her own" (1 Cor
        13:5).  There's no payment in the judicial sense only a payment 
        in the sense of such a revelation of love that when received in
        the heart, the heart is really and actually delivered from sin.
    
        My path since then has been very carefully trod.  Doesn't remission
        of sin requiring the shedding of blood imply satisfying a legal
        payment?  Well, the context of Hebrews explains remission of sin
        in terms of it being actually removed from the heart _when quoting
        the remission of sin text_ (Heb 9 especially verses 9, 13, 14, 22
        [remission of sins text], 23.  I have searched out the ransom texts
        and Peter states that we are ransomed from sin.  And I have found
        that "the wages of sin is death" can mean that the wages is
        inherent to sin and not a penalty God must give because of sin.
    
        This message has profoundly impacted me because I now see salvation
        as God being my Physician and yet not being able to deny my free
        will.  I see a God so mighty to save that He can actually remove
        sin from my life.  And I am not encumbered by any notion that God
        has to punish for sin, but rather there is a spiritual reality 
        that God is bound to and that is that sin in the presence of love
        unveiled destroys.
    
        This has radically shifted my understanding of why the cross is
        necessary, what is justification by faith, and what is the
        atonement.
    
        It has also seared my conscioussness with the truth that we have
        an infantile understanding of the plan of redemption and if we
        understood it fully, the gospel would be such good news that it
        would have rooted sin from the life.
    
        Lastly, I now see my being accounted righteouss as God honoring
        my first steps.  And I see the validation of the plan of salvation
        being a last generation that is enabled to drink in so much good
        news that sin is completely removed from the life, i.e. deliverance
        from sin is really and actually accomplished (Heb 11:39,40).
    
                                                   Good Topic!,
    
                                                   Tony

    Thanks, Tony - I really needed to hear those words you just entered.  
    
    Just another one of those "coincidences", right?  (Yeah, sure!)
    
    /John

        Your welcome John!
    
                                          Tony

    I used to be a very aggressive driver.  I would shake my fist, yell at
    people, all the things a terrible driver do. 
    
    About 7 years ago I was driving down a fairly empty stretch, and passed
    a car almost running another off the road, I didn't even see him.  I
    raised my hands above my head hoping he would accept the appology. 
    Either he did, or wasn't to upset, and just went on his way.
    
    I was thinking how I would have behaived and begin to feel convicted
    about my attitude driving.  About 5 more miles I thought I was dying, I
    just felt completly detatched, a sense of complete peace.  It scared me
    to death, I pulled of the road, heart racing thinking I've got to get
    out of the car so if I pass out someone will see me.   Then a sense of
    calm came over me again, I went ahead and drove to work.  I made a
    doctors appointment, for my "dizzy spell", found I had slightly
    elevated blood pressure for my age, but he didn't think it would cause
    anything like I described.  I noticed from that day on I have
    completly changed my driving style.  People who ride with me ask how do
    I remain so calm in Houston Traffic, I then get to tell them I just
    pray to God for patience every morning, which I do, and he does the
    rest.
    
    Sparky

    ahhhh Houston Traffic...
    something I don't miss too much from home...
    :-)

Good, Tony...

� if we understood it fully, the gospel would be such good news that it
� would have rooted sin from the life.

That's how I see an aspect of 1 John 3:2 working - "When we see Him we 
shall be like Him because we shall see Him as He is"
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

The full revelation removes in a flash all that militates against His
glory, and suddenly the sinful nature can no longer even pretend to be any
part of us; we are totally freed into His likeness. 

2 Corinthians 5:2 reflects this too :
	"...we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling" 
					... Oh!  The anticipation!

								...Andrew

Boy, Sparky, can I relate!

I didn't have any such sudden revelation, though.  I've been very conscious
about changing my attitude.  I printed out Psalm 37:7-9, and have it taped to
the center of my steering wheel.  It has helped me on occasion:

	Be still before the LORD 
	   and wait patiently for Him;
	Do not fret when men succeed in their ways;
	   when they carry out their wicked schemes.
	Refrain from anger and turn from wrath;
	   do not fret - it leads only to evil.
	For evil men will be cut off,                    <---I love this line
	   but those who hope in the LORD will inherit the land.


:-) :-) :-)

Paul

>        WHAT A REVELATION!  God doesn't require a judicial punishment
>        for sin!  He has no need.  His government, His _law_ needs no
>        requirement for itself for "agape seeketh not her own" (1 Cor
>        13:5).  There's no payment in the judicial sense only a payment 
>        in the sense of such a revelation of love that when received in
>        the heart, the heart is really and actually delivered from sin.
 
I was going to pass this whole note by, but I can't.  This is simply
not true.  There is a reckoning that will be had - in the judicial sense.
I have no problem with "being delivered from sin" and voiding sin from
our lives through Christ's atonement for our sins, but this is not a
correct understanding of God who will judge, righteously and mercifully.

Mark Metcalfe   

      Well, Mark, it is not your personal revelation, it is mine.
      I will at times try to safeguard others from your destructive
      errors as well.
    
                                            Tony Barbieri

>      I will at times try to safeguard others from your destructive
>      errors as well.

Now, we've communicated.

Mark

      Hi Mark,
    
        I could not expect you to do any other than to safeguard
        people from what you (in your heart) believe is error.  God
        looks on the heart.  The motive is the important thing and
        I belive your motive is pure.  And of course (as I said), I
        will do the same (sometimes).  Truth is good for the heart and
        error is not.
    
        I hope others contribute to this topic.  This is a GOOD topic!!!
    
                                             God Bless,
    
                                             Tony

 reply .14 has been moved to topic 423.






 Jim Co-mod

Over the Easter weekend, I was blessed with some time off, and also with the
opportunity to attend the Costa Mesa/Cpao Beach Calvary Chapel weekend of
worship/praise/concerts at the Irvine Meadows, an outdoor amphitheatre in SoCal.

I was to meet a couple of friends there on Friday, to offer my assistance in the
setting up of props/stage/whatever. So, being a bit worried about how, and where
I would meet them in the midst of a few thousamd people, in prayer, I let God
know about this. At almost the exact time this was troubling me, I looked left,
at the licence plate of the car just ahead of me. It was 2JPR130. So, knowing my
aka (because of adoption, and a prayerfull search that led to my biological
family, and finding out I would have been named Jeffrey Paul Raymond, had they
not givin me up for adoption), I thought perhaps God was giving me a message to
the effect of "don't worry Bob, (JPR) at 1:30, you'll find them."

So, I took a seat at the top row of the first level of seats, and enjoyed the
Good Friday service, with Pastor Chuck Smith speaking. The message, along with
the Presence of God, brought tears to my eyes. The service stopped at 1:10, and
after the front cleared up, I went down near the stage. It was just a couple
minutes after 1:30, when I stepped up onto the steps leading to the stage, and
inquired of where I might find my friend Mike. Within seconds, he walked out
from the back.

I was in awe, and spent some time over the next few days thinking about the
likelyhood of this being coincidence. That God, knowing I'd be worried about
meeting someone on this particular day, would in advance, see that licence plate
2JPR130 would end up on a car, that would be a Christian's, attending the same
event I drove 400 miles to attend, at exactly the same time I was beginning to
worry, have that car next to mine, in an angle that was easy to see, and THEN
have me see the individual I was looking for at almost exactly 1:30, was too
much for my little brain to handle. Like, totally awesome!

Praising God for the "little things" (like this was a hard thing for Him?) 8^)

Bob

>opportunity to attend the Costa Mesa/Cpao Beach Calvary Chapel weekend of
>worship/praise/concerts at the Irvine Meadows, an outdoor amphitheatre in SoCal.
    >
    >Good Friday service, with Pastor Chuck Smith speaking. The message, along with
    
    Now that's what I call going to Church!

    re: .15
    
    Thanks for sharing that, Bob - what a great story!  Just another
    example to show that God cares about the details.  It brings
    to mind that scripture that talks about the lilies of the field,
    the birds of the air - if God cares for them, how much more
    does He care for us!
    
    Karen
    

    
    	For this morning's devotion, rather than read the February 2nd
    	reading, I asked God to lead me to the devotion he wanted me
    	to read.  I flipped the book pages a few times, and opened up
    	to August 2nd.  The title was something like "The Discipline
    	of Difficulty"
    
    	The scripture reference was John 16:33
    
    	The crux of the reading was that only as we strain can we
    	gain strength, as we seek the Lord as our source of strength.
    
    	Without strain, there would be no growth.
    
    	This reminds me of the way weight training works.  In order
    	to strengthen a muscle, you ask it to perform a task at a 
    	greater level than that to which it is accustomed.  When you
    	do that, the muscle fibers actually get broken down, what
    	we call "micro-traumas".  During the following rest period
    	(recommended to be 48 hours), the damaged fibers repair, only
    	as they repair, they become stronger.  Repeated cycles of 
    	breakdown and repair cause continued strength gains.
    
        After a short period of time, the weight you originally
    	lifted is too small.  You have to add additional weight
    	if you want to challenge the muscle further.
    
    	The burden of your trials is serving to strengthen you.
    	
    	At some point in time, the trial becomes like a feather to
    	the weight-lifter.
    
    	Karen
    

_Good_ Karen!

								Andrew