Conference yukon::christian_v7

 The devil believes that Jesus is the Christ..is he saved?  There is more
 to just saying I believe.


 Romans 5:8 says that while we were yet sinners Christ died for us.  Romans
 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal
 life through Jesus Christ.  God proved His love to us by paying the debt
 we owed..that is the gift.  As with any gift, it does not become ours until
 we accept it, or take it..how do we accept it?  Romans 10:13 "For whosoever
 shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved"..we must call upon him
 to save us..a conscious effort on our part.


 What took place in Acts 2:36-38?  The 3000 there clearly believed as it
says they were pricked in their heart..they asked the question of Peter and
 the rest.."men and brethren, what shall we do?"  There was action that goes
 farther than mere belief required of them.




Jim

I've always felt it unfortunate that nearly all english translations use the
word "believe" where they do.  Our normal english "believe" generally just
carries the connotation of intellectual assent, it does not imply any
commitment to that belief.

The greek word though, does carry the connotation of committment, very much
so.  It means "To adhere to, trust, and rely on."  It is just the verb form
of the SAME WORD that is used throughout the new testament for "faith." 
"pistis" is the noun we translate as "faith," "pisteuo" is the verb we
translate as "believe."

So are all those who "adhere to, trust, and rely on" Christ, all those who
are seeking to put their faith, trust and life in Him saved, despite possible
doctrinal errors?  I hope so.  If getting every bit of doctrine perfectly
correct is a prerequisite for heaven, heaven will be a lonely place.

Are all those who "believe" in Him, that is intelletually assent to the idea
that He is the Christ, but not commit to Him, saved?  I doubt it.  It is of
them that Christ said "Depart from me, I never knew you."

Paul

  (1) The devils believe and tremble - ok, they were never part of the 
      "plan of salvation" and can/will not be saved. So this dosn't 
       apply to them anyway.

  (2) What does believe mean? 

  The object of the believing in the I John passage is not Jesus Christ but
  *the fact* that He is the Christ. That is, it says "whoever believes that
  Jesus *is* the Christ is born of God". 

  Every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh
  is of God.     I John 4:2  (an acknowledgment of a fact).

  Whoever confesses that Jesus is the son of God, God abides in him and he in
  God.           I John 4:15  (another acknowledgment of a fact).

  I have heard that these statements were made by John to counteract heresies
  which denied that Jesus was really human and/or that the Christ descended
  upon Jesus at His baptism.

  Can we then assume then that believing on or in (eis) Jesus Christ has to 
  include a correct doctrinal position concerning His person?

  What about His deity, does it say anywhere in the scriptures that someone
  cannot be saved without a *correct* doctrinal position concerning His deity?

  Personally, I don't know for sure, the scripture is not 100% clear (imo) as 
  to whether one *must* acknowledge His deity. One problem is that we don't 
  know what being "the Christ" meant in John's day. Did it "inherit" deity
  or was it a word within a class of "deity" words ????

              Hank

  
  

Belief changes a person; it cannot mean intellectual assent only (as Paul Weiss
has already said).  The importance of baptism in the first century and *before*
signified a radical change and departure from the oldd to the new.

Imagine a Christian turning his back on Christianity and converting to Islam.
It's is done all the time, as Moslems also convert to Christianity.  This is 
the kind of belief that alters a person, burns the bridges behind them,
so to speak.  Converts to Christianity from Judaism cause some Jews to 
disown their children and buy grave markers (I know a few) with the death
date being the date of conversion to Christianity.

We don't understand this kind of belief well because we have not had to
leave all to follow Christ, being born into Christian homes.  But for us
third and fourth generation Christians, our belief has to be as much a
radical turning over to God as for those of other religions who are disowned
by their families for doing so.  "I believe" and because I believe, I
act/behave/think/say according to that new belief.

Too often, belief translates to lip service, Hank, and the life of a so-called
"Christian" has very little resemblance to Christ, the Author and Finisher 
of our faith, and these "Christians" are guilty of taking the Lord's name in 
vain.  Christianity is about Christ, and those who take on the name of 
Christ as a follower, must believe in Christ to the point of transformation
of everything that they are or were.

Mark

  Re 441.5 Mark M

  Thanks Mark, we have established the fact that "belief" is more than 
  mental assent and I have voiced something similar to this "change" of
  lifestyle myself as an evidence of salvation.

  This I also know by experience.

  However, there are many cultist who evangelical christians assume 
  are not saved, yet they (cultist) would firmly agree with us that a 
  "righteous walk" is a requirement for the christian and indeed often
  demonstrate a "righteousness" and zeal that would put many/most of
  us to shame.

  What I'm asking is how important is the content of what a person believes
  concerning the person of Christ? Some specific questions would be :
  can a person be saved if that person does not believe in the humanity
  of Christ, or what if they have a distorted view of His humanity.
  For instance : there are two general groups; one who say Christ was
  not able to sin; the other would say He was able not to sin (He could
  have but He didn't).  Assuming He couldn't sin, are those who believe
  He could have sinned but didnt, true christians ?

  What about His Deity? How far off can an individual be concerning His 
  Deity and still be able to exercise saving faith in Jesus Christ?

  The epistles of John seem to indicate that those who have exercised
  saving faith will acknowledge at least 3 things :

  Jesus Christ is come in the flesh (He came in sinful flesh as a real 
  human being - He was made sin who knew no sin)

  Jesus is the Christ (He is the Saviour of the world).

  Jesus is the Son of God (He is God).

  I was Catholic when I was saved (reading a Douay-Rheims Bible) and stayed
  in the Catholic Church many years after that, yet I know I was saved then
  and believed all the above with all my heart, I knew my Church was wrong
  in many ways, but stayed in for a number of reasons (wont bore you).

  My apologies in advance to any Catholic brethren I might have offended.

  I guess my point is this : I believe that there are true christians in 
  the legalalistic  churches (even in the cults). Those who have a "core" 
  faith which is "saving" My guess is that they are uncomfortable (as I was).

  Anyone else agree or not?

                  Hank

>  What about His Deity? How far off can an individual be concerning His 
>  Deity and still be able to exercise saving faith in Jesus Christ?

The doctrine of Christ's deity is important because only God can forgive
sin.  Christ demonstrated this by forgiving sin, even before his sacrifice
on the cross.  The cross is the means by which sins are expunged and
forgiveness of sin need not have been after the cross event, as Christ
clearly demonstrated.  However, the faith of those before the cross 
event was essential, that they believe in the saving grace accorded to them
through God's provision.

But you have a second part here which I would like to cut off thusly:
"How far off can an individual be...?"  Then you say, "I believe that 
there are true christians in the legalalistic churches (even in the cults)."

What you are saying is that doctrinal correctness is not the metric for
salvation.  We agree.  You may find my articles "Lessons from the Well"
somewhere in the 300s in notes, interesting because it discusses the 
importance of understanding correct doctrine.  "We Jews worship what 
we know... but there will come a time when the true worshippers will
worship not on this mountain nor in Jerusalem but in spirit and in truth."

I think the question should have its direction changed to reflect 
self-examination.  How far on can an individual be with the truth?
Indeed, how much can an individual know the truth and still get lost!?

I find such questions entertaining but more often than not counter-productive.
Peter asked Jesus "what about him?"  Jesus responded, "What about him?
*You*
must follow me!"  (John 20:21-21 loosly translated).

Mark

 
  Re: 441.7  Mark M

  Thanks Mark, first, I would agree that such an exercise in thought as
  to doctrinal correctness without some productive outcome would be at its
  best "entertainment". However, my motive is to develope a methodology in 
  how to deal with those who are in serious error concerning Christ, His work 
  and His Person. Two illustrations : when at first I left the RCC, my family
  (Catholic) reacted in several ways from shock to curiousity. I felt as if
  I were on "a mission from God" to convert everyone. Needless to say it
  didn't happen and over the years the conversations became more of the
  nature of dialogue rather than monologue and centered more around the 
  person of Christ and His work rather than "Mary, statues, penance, etc).
  Many of my Catholic family members and friends were very willing to talk
  about Jesus Christ in  a positive way, (His life on earth,etc) but were
  adverse to criticism of the Church, so I did it that way and it proved 
  fruitful to a degree, enhancing their/my view of Christ.

  Then there is my wife, after my conversion and after I got out of the 
  service, I meet my wife, I was hopelessly in love, but she was a Mormon, 
  I feigned curiosity in the Mormon Church (I know, it was awful, I was awful) 
  and began going to church with her, I promised to be baptized into the Mormon 
  Church after I was grounded in their teachings, then we could be "sealed" in 
  the temple (we were married for "time").  Well, we wern't sealed and she was 
  a little upset (understatement) especially after we started having children 
  and I wouldn't let them go to Mormon doctrinal classes (though she and they 
  went with me to a Baptist church). After several years and a protracted time 
  of conviction of sin, she received Christ as her Saviour and needless to say, 
  things improved.   While I was sojourning in the Mormon Church, I knew I was 
  an outsider from the start, but there were those of whom I wondered, who 
  seemed to have a genuine love for Jesus Christ and whom I felt as ease with. 
  It seemed unlikely that they could fake such a thing and I concluded that 
  somehow they had come to a saving knowledge of Jesus Christ. I have also had
  these thoughts concerning some JWs I have known.
  
  Also noteworthy, is the fact that more than a few of these (but not all) were 
  "converts" from orthodox christianity. 

  I guess my point is that there are those sheep who are "not of this fold" 
  whom Jesus wants us to seek in His name.  (imo)

  My technique has been to concentrate on the person of Jesus Christ, drawing
  attention to Him, rather than thrashing them for their "error" (although that
  needs to be done gently and at the appropriate time). 
                      
                      Hank
  

>  My technique has been to concentrate on the person of Jesus Christ, drawing
>  attention to Him, rather than thrashing them for their "error" (although that
>  needs to be done gently and at the appropriate time). 
                      
I have no argument with this, Hank.

Christianity is about Christ.  "He who comes to God must believe he exists;
and He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him."  Hebrews 11:6

Receiving the truth is like drinking water from the water fountain: you 
are able to drink what you can, as you can, and not more.  Some people 
can take in more water at a time than others; the water remains the same.

We will be rewarded for seeking Him diligently; it is a promise, and to this
end it won't matter where one starts the journey; it's where you end up.

(This is a different message that some preach, which is that it doesn't 
matter where you start, it all leads to the same place.  Let's not confuse
the two messages.  The first claims one truth and it must be found; the
latter claims one truth and you can't help but find it.  The latter is a
lie because it denies the truth of damnation.  Just an aside to beware the
subtle differences in some peoples' message.)

Mark

      Hi Jim,
    
        I believe that we are accountable for the light we have had
        oppurtunity to receive.  Paul says in Romans that God has 
        revealed Himself through the things He has made.  He says
        in Galatians that faith works by love.
    
        I believe that the word of Christ as manifested in creation
        is a revelation of the love of God which can be appreciated
        in the heart by true faith. Yes, this is a minimal nugget of
        light, but light it is and thus faith can lay hold of it; it
        can work by even that small nuggets' worth of a revelation of
        the love of God.
    
        I picture native American Indians who will be resurrected who
        have never heard of the name of Christ.  But they did respond
        by true faith to what little of the word of Christ they were
        able to see - creation.  And they KNEW there was a 'great Spirit.'
        And they worshipped that Spirit in accordance with the limited light
        they saw.  And God winked at their ignorance...and He winks at
        ours.
    
                                                     Tony