| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 431.1 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Thu Mar 10 1994 13:54 | 36 |
| Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that
winneth souls is wise.
> What does this mean to you?
Winning (to me) means to convince or convert; you can win a friend
[over].
> What do you believe winning souls means?
Convincing a soul to your way of thinking (which in this conference
and context is supposed to be God's gospel and its message or way of
thinking)
> What do you do personnally with your meaning?
Express myself as I understand the truth.
> What do you think is the most effective way to win souls?
You mean besides arm-twisting, thumb screws, and water torture?
(Sorry, it is hard to be serious all the time when you're me.)
I am of the opinion that the Word does the winning and we are the tools.
Having said that, we can be used to bring the Word to another in several
ways: by proclamation (preaching), by evangelism, by education, by service,
and by example. Different people will respond differently to each.
Some people are convinced by preaching and evangelism, while others
want to see the Word lived in others to see that it works before they
will be convinced of the Word's veracity. Whether by hearing and
understanding, or seeing and believing, the most effective way in each
is to remain True.
Perhsp not the answer you wanted, but at least it is typical of me, eh?
MM
|
| 431.2 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | Thou God seest me | Fri Mar 11 1994 07:14 | 61 |
| Good one, Nancy ....
� The Bible says that "He that winneth souls is wise".
� What does this mean to you?
� What do you believe winning souls means?
I read this [with the hindsight of the New Covenant] to mean letting the
LORD Jesus live in us and be expressed through us, to the extent that He
can communicate with those who have not met Him. ie, Him using our total
life (attitudes, actions, reactions, personality), as well as the secondary
reasoning our minds do (often largely under our interruption).
This as a foundation leads to the actions of answering the other two
questions.
� What do you do personally with your meaning?
Take every opportunity. Which sometimes means speaking, and sometimes
means not speaking. But always means listening [to Him] and being [Him].
For me, it sometimes means being involved in areas of church-based
evangelism, which can be exciting and rewarding. And usually implies
talking to people about the LORD Jesus, and His gospel of salvation. Not
often in terms of people making commitments for the LORD (which is what we
want it to lead to ultimately), but in these days of darkness and
ignorance, to give a new awareness can be a big step. For someone to
realise that Christians are real people, who use their minds [typically in
the creation-evolution conflict, but in every area of life - and death],
to realise that the existance of a real, involved God is something
modern, not medi�val, and a valuable basis for one's total life is a big
advance.
� What do you think is the most effective way to win souls?
A personal, ongoing relationship, which builds up over time. But every
method has its time and use. There's a time to do visitation 'cold' (where
man has not trod before...;-). There's a time to take someone to a gospel
presentation - from a low-key lunch+speaker, to a direct gospel appeal.
Even a time to by-pass someone....
etc - as in Ecclesiastes 3...
The right approach for the right person at the right time.
As Mark said, the Word does the winning and we are the tools. The Holy
Spirit is the deposit and guarantee within us,and we should be listening to
Him continually. Then we know how He would use us in any situation.
And bearing in mind that it all needs watering with prayer, that our
personal consistency in life and prayer is also essential. But if
listening is a pre-requiisite, that should be obvious - it's the first
thing He's going to mention ... Can just imagine it...
Me: "LORD, convict Bill, guide me to reach him for you..."
Lord: "Quit bugging him with your snide criticisms"
Me: "Yeah ... but I meant something POSITIVE, that I can say and do..."
Lord: "Don't talk to him about Me until he sees Me in the way you react
to him"
etc etc....
Note: No real person is intended to be represented by 'Bill' in the above ;-)
Andrew
|
| 431.3 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Fri Mar 11 1994 11:15 | 27 |
| > Winning (to me) means to convince or convert; you can win a friend
> [over].
Good definition.
Could you expound on the "getting wisdom" piece?
> I am of the opinion that the Word does the winning and we are the tools.
> Having said that, we can be used to bring the Word to another in several
> ways: by proclamation (preaching), by evangelism, by education, by service,
> and by example. Different people will respond differently to each.
> Some people are convinced by preaching and evangelism, while others
> want to see the Word lived in others to see that it works before they
> will be convinced of the Word's veracity. Whether by hearing and
> understanding, or seeing and believing, the most effective way in each
> is to remain True.
This is a great definition! What does Mark do though? How do you
apply these definitions in your life? Do you think that God commands
each of us to be soul winners or do believe that only certain "gifted"
ones should do the job?
>Perhsp not the answer you wanted, but at least it is typical of me, eh?
I *loved* it.... :-)
|
| 431.4 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Fri Mar 11 1994 11:35 | 61 |
| >I read this [with the hindsight of the New Covenant] to mean letting the
>LORD Jesus live in us and be expressed through us, to the extent that He
>can communicate with those who have not met Him. ie, Him using our total
>life (attitudes, actions, reactions, personality), as well as the secondary
>reasoning our minds do (often largely under our interruption).
I like that.
>This as a foundation leads to the actions of answering the other two
>questions.
>Take every opportunity. Which sometimes means speaking, and sometimes
>means not speaking. But always means listening [to Him] and being [Him].
>For me, it sometimes means being involved in areas of church-based
>evangelism, which can be exciting and rewarding. And usually implies
>talking to people about the LORD Jesus, and His gospel of salvation. Not
>often in terms of people making commitments for the LORD (which is what we
>want it to lead to ultimately), but in these days of darkness and
>ignorance, to give a new awareness can be a big step. For someone to
>realise that Christians are real people, who use their minds [typically in
>the creation-evolution conflict, but in every area of life - and death],
>to realise that the existance of a real, involved God is something
>modern, not medi�val, and a valuable basis for one's total life is a big
>advance.
Thanks 'rew that was well stated.
>A personal, ongoing relationship, which builds up over time. But every
>method has its time and use. There's a time to do visitation 'cold' (where
>man has not trod before...;-). There's a time to take someone to a gospel
>presentation - from a low-key lunch+speaker, to a direct gospel appeal.
I followed up to this point
>Even a time to by-pass someone....
I'd have to disagree with this one... doesn't it state that those whom
we do not tell that we come in contact with that their blood will be on
our hands?
>And bearing in mind that it all needs watering with prayer, that our
>personal consistency in life and prayer is also essential. But if
>listening is a pre-requiisite, that should be obvious - it's the first
>thing He's going to mention ... Can just imagine it...
> Me: "LORD, convict Bill, guide me to reach him for you..."
>Lord: "Quit bugging him with your snide criticisms"
> Me: "Yeah ... but I meant something POSITIVE, that I can say and do..."
>Lord: "Don't talk to him about Me until he sees Me in the way you react
> to him"
While it is profound that we should be living the Word in our lives, I
don't think God ever rejects a prayer for the winning of one's soul to
Him. If in fact the prayer is "guide me", then God will convict in
areas of imperfection... if it was the case that we had to *fix*
ourselves prior to talking about Christ and what he *has* done in our
lives, we'd never utter a single word. Dontcha think?
Nancy
|
| 431.5 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | Thou God seest me | Fri Mar 11 1994 11:50 | 49 |
| �>Even a time to by-pass someone....
� I'd have to disagree with this one... doesn't it state that those whom
� we do not tell that we come in contact with that their blood will be on
� our hands?
I'm not saying that we don't give them the gospel; rather that there are
times when we have shared with someone, and a time has come when we need to
relate to them in ordinary everyday things.
Coupla examples. I heard them from missionary types, but can't remember
who from or who they were about.
A fellow played tennis with someone he had been talking to about the LORD
over some time. The target was anticipating being zapped again, but as the
subject wasn't broached that time, the wind was taken out of his sails, and
when they met again, he was ready to receive.
Someone objected to evangelistic material being posted through the door.
The evangelist but frequently forgot to omit that house on his rounds,and
got more flack. Then one time he remembered, and passed it by. The
occupant caught him later, and was really perturbed about being omitted
(like, had they lost their last chance, and the rest had been raptured...?)
That opened the way to genuine communication.
That's the sort of by-pass I meant. Generally where the LORD says 'not
today'
� While it is profound that we should be living the Word in our lives, I
� don't think God ever rejects a prayer for the winning of one's soul to
� Him. If in fact the prayer is "guide me", then God will convict in
� areas of imperfection... if it was the case that we had to *fix*
� ourselves prior to talking about Christ and what he *has* done in our
� lives, we'd never utter a single word. Dontcha think?
I didn't express it adequately. I just meant that if we're, say,
consistently at outs with someone, trying to evangelise them would come
with the wrong spirit. If they saw us change, that would be half the
battle, and they would then be more likely to accept what we said. But
it's for the LORD to highlight the area in our hearts. He more usually
says to talk to someone you'd think you couldn't, than says to hold back on
someone you would speak to...
I'm not saying we have to be perfect (or even use our imperfection as an
excuse) before we evangelise. No question of that!
Sorry .... I'm hurrying more than I'm clear today.
Andrew
|
| 431.6 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Fri Mar 11 1994 12:49 | 46 |
| >A fellow played tennis with someone he had been talking to about the LORD
>over some time. The target was anticipating being zapped again, but as the
>subject wasn't broached that time, the wind was taken out of his sails, and
>when they met again, he was ready to receive.
This is called discernment, not constraint. :-) :-)
>Someone objected to evangelistic material being posted through the door.
>The evangelist but frequently forgot to omit that house on his rounds,and
>got more flack. Then one time he remembered, and passed it by. The
>occupant caught him later, and was really perturbed about being omitted
>(like, had they lost their last chance, and the rest had been raptured...?)
>That opened the way to genuine communication.
This is called Divine intervention. :-)
>That's the sort of by-pass I meant. Generally where the LORD says 'not
>today'
Thanks, for clarifying.
>I didn't express it adequately. I just meant that if we're, say,
>consistently at outs with someone, trying to evangelise them would come
>with the wrong spirit. If they saw us change, that would be half the
>battle, and they would then be more likely to accept what we said. But
Absolutely... oftimes in the heat of a discussion an attitude can be
conveyed that is not necessarily accurate of the heart's content.
>it's for the LORD to highlight the area in our hearts. He more usually
>says to talk to someone you'd think you couldn't, than says to hold back on
>someone you would speak to...
Your above examples are accurate.
>I'm not saying we have to be perfect (or even use our imperfection as an
>excuse) before we evangelise. No question of that!
GREAT! Then we are in agreement about this... but I'm also trying to
learn from others what works for them.
How do folks feel about tracts?
|
| 431.7 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Mon Mar 14 1994 12:54 | 59 |
| .3 Nancy
Thanks for sending mail; I've been occupied elsewhere and wouldn't have
seen your questions otherwise.
> This is a great definition! What does Mark do though? How do you
> apply these definitions in your life? Do you think that God commands
> each of us to be soul winners or do believe that only certain "gifted"
> ones should do the job?
Mark presents the Truth of the gospel. Mark presents the Truth of the gospel
differently than does Nancy, or Jim, or Mike, and so on.
I believe that some people are more gifted at "soul winning". Evangelism
is a gift. Ever take the spiritual gifts test? Some people are "made"
to some things that others are not, and that's all being the part of a
diverse and functioning body. I still have the score sheet from when I
took my spiritual gifts "test" some years ago. I am of the opinion that
some gifts can be developed and strengthened as well, though still what
one is "made" to do is what they will do best.
Stepping aside a minute, I want to also say that it is a mistake of
Christians to think all Christians should be performing the same function,
such as evangelism, or intercession, or leadership, for example. Worse,
I have seen some Christians move into a ministry and become frustrated with
other Christians because the burden for the ministry does not weigh upon
others as it does on them. It would do us all good to remember what Jesus
said to Peter when Peter asked, "well, what about him?" Jesus said, "what
is that to you? You must follow Me." I remember this and repeat it whenever
I am tempted to frustration because some people don't share my passion for
ministry as I do.
Back to gifts: On my [Trenton Gifts Chart] score sheet there are 17
categories listed. Administration, Craftsmanship (artistic), Craftsmanship
(manual), Evangelism, Exhortation-Wisdom, Giving, Helps, Hospitality,
Intercession, Knowledge, Leadership, Mercy, Music (vocal), Music (instrumental),
Serving, Teaching, and Writing.
I would like to think that I have upped some of the scores. Very often people
feel as if they are "inadequate" (and I am no exception) when they see some
of the scores in some areas they consider "more important" to the work of
Christ's kingdom. Growing a bit in the last few years, I have come to better
understand that "obedience is better than sacrifice," which may mean that
cleaning the toilets can be every bit as important as leading a worship
service. Certainly not as glamorous to us, and by our estimation, preaching
may win more souls than sparkling porceline, but God calls each of us to
our purpose; the reason he made us. When we align ourselves to that purpose,
by being obedient, then we are in harmony with the Almighty and what is more
important than that?
Oh yeah, about winning souls. Again, our part is to be obedient to our
calling and leave the Word (Truth; Holy Spirit) to do the actual work.
As obedient servants, some of us will take a more active role in winning
souls through preaching and evangelism; some of is may take a less active
role, though no less important, of living our lives in such a way as to be
called the people of God and preach and evangelize through the living out of
the Word. Either way, the Bible tells us that the Word will not return void.
Mark
|
| 431.8 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Mon Mar 14 1994 13:42 | 3 |
| >Evangelism is a gift.
How do you ascertain this? I do not recall scripture to support it.
|
| 431.9 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Mon Mar 14 1994 14:13 | 22 |
| .1>>Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that
.1>>winneth souls is wise.
>
.3> Could you expound on the "getting wisdom" piece?
Oh yeah, sorry. Andrew illustrated this well. Speaking in turn, etc.
One can present the truth in such a way as to frighten people away,
while the gospel is winsome when it is understood the way it was
intended - as a means for reconciliation, much more than a reward
for being good, or punishment for being bad. The wisdom part comes
in handy as to how to best get the message across.
To some where the words speak for themselves, regardless of the messenger,
they will respond to a more dry and reasoned approach, and less so to an
emotionally based approach. To others, they need to know that someone
else knows the situation they are in and that God can indeed save *even*
them. And still others respond differently. How does an evangelist,
for example, reach each of these different types? I'm not sure, because
I'm not much of an evangelist. But I do know that wisdom is used in the
presentation of the message.
Mark
|
| 431.10 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Mon Mar 14 1994 14:15 | 7 |
| Let's look at from the act = consequence view..
he that winneth souls is wise...
It could be deduced that wisdom is a result of soul winning or it could
be deduced that wisdom causes soul winning... in either case it is not
for one who is gifted in the act of evangelism, but to everyone?????
|
| 431.11 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Mon Mar 14 1994 14:19 | 33 |
| > >Evangelism is a gift.
>
> How do you ascertain this? I do not recall scripture to support it.
1Corinthians 12
27 Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily
prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings,
helps, governments, diversities of tongues.
29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all teachers? are all workers of
miracles?
30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all
interpret?
31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more
excellent way.
Nancy,
(1) Is this an exhaustive list?
(2) Where do evangelists fit into the "apostles, prophets, and teachers?"
How about wisdom? We must extrapolate that wisdom is *at least* a
specific gift, if not one of the enumerated gifts, because Solomon
received it from God as a result of granting Solomon's request.
Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath
begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
What good work has Christ begun in each of us? What gift and talent has
the Lord given?
Mark
|
| 431.12 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Mon Mar 14 1994 14:30 | 18 |
| RE: Wisdom
We can all ask for wisdom, it is not exclusive.
RE: Soulwinning
God commands us all to soul win, now does that mean door-to-door
evangelism for all, absolutely not! But if a person is saved and via
there own individuality has not lead someone else to Christ [which
could simply mean bringing them to church or to someone who knows how
to lead a person to Christ], then they are missing out on the first
commandment of Christ at his ascension.
No, you don't have to a scriptural scholar, you just need to be able to
invite and guide and let the Holy Spirit with perhaps another, Pastor,
Sunday School Teacher, Assistant Pastor, skilled layperson do the
rest... this is still soulwinning, imho.
|
| 431.13 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Mon Mar 14 1994 14:32 | 4 |
| I don't believe evangelism is a gift... sorry. I believe that those
who have the gift of teaching are often good soulwinners as they have
the gift making scripture alive and apply in a person's life.
|
| 431.14 | gifts again | FRETZ::HEISER | impeach the President and her husband | Mon Mar 14 1994 15:50 | 10 |
| I still say Romans 12 contains the gifts and I Corinthians 12 contains
manifestations of the Holy Spirit. Every person has 1 of the gifts in
Romans 12 but the same can't be said of I Corinthians 12. Remember
Charlie Johnson and others like him who really desired the "gift" of
tongues, but never received it? That's one of the reasons why I say
they aren't gifts. They are manifestations that God enables as He sees
fit to work with your gift as outlined in Romans 12. Also, the
original manuscripts do not say "gift" in I Corinthians 12.
Mike
|
| 431.15 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Mon Mar 14 1994 16:18 | 9 |
| Nancy,
Please define "gift." I have a feeling that it means something more than
something that is given by God, or perhaps something more specific?
I know people who evangelize better than other people. I know people for
whom it seems natural to evangelize. To me, this is a gift or talent that
they possess, given to them by God.
I wonder if we mystify the "gifts" and miss the gifts.
Mark
|
| 431.16 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Mon Mar 14 1994 16:23 | 8 |
| I believe in these scriptures that gift means a "natural ability given
by God" one in which it comes easy to you.
Some people have the gift of singing, that doesn't negate singing for
those who may not have beautiful voices. We are commanded to sing unto
the Lord, no requirement of natural ability required.
Same with soulwinning.
|
| 431.17 | | MIMS::CASON_K | | Mon Mar 14 1994 16:41 | 15 |
| Nancy,
I just have a minute but I'd like to offer my input, if I may. The
word gift is translated from the word charismata. Yes, it's where the
charismatics get their name, because they believe that all the gifts
listed in scripture are for today. A more accurate rendering might be
"grace gift", that is one which is divinely imparted from God.
Ephesians 4:8-11 speaks of another list of gifts and specifically lists
evangelist unique from the other three or four (depending on whether
you lump pastor and teacher together). While there is a specific gift
of an evangelist which applies to those called by God for such a
purpose there is also a universal call and commission to evangelise.
Kent
|
| 431.18 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Friend will you be ready | Mon Mar 14 1994 21:30 | 27 |
|
"Men may spurn our appeals, reject our message, oppose our arguments, despise
our persons; but they are powerless against our prayers".
---Sidlow Baxter
Reprinted from "Sword of
the Lord" 3/11/94
I read this quote a few minutes after calling a man who is dying of
cancer and tried to set up an appointment to visit him and share the
gospel..he replied "I'm not interested"..
Off to the prayer note.
Jim
|
| 431.19 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Mon Mar 14 1994 22:06 | 12 |
| .16
You say yourself that some have the gift of singing, but all should
sing. So, too is there a gift of evangelism, though all should bear
witness to Christ. The effectiveness of a person with the gift of
evangelism is the same as the effectiveness of a person with the gift
of song. And there are people who won't sing or evangelize as well.
To each is given a different duty. The duty of specific evangelism (as
Kent has said) is not for everyone, even though the Great Commission is
for everyone.
MM
|
| 431.20 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Friend will you be ready | Tue Mar 15 1994 08:39 | 18 |
|
I picked up a book recently called "Great Preaching on Salvation" containing
sermons by men such as Charles Spurgeon, DL Moody, Bob Jones, John R. Rice,
et al. I've only read a couple of the sermons, but I believe it shows evidence
that there are those who have the "gift" of evangelism. These men not only
had the burden for the souls of the lost, but also had the gift of presenting
the message. I do not have that gift. My Pastor, while being a man truly
burdened for the souls of the lost, and a man who can deliver an evangelistic
message with power, will tell you he does not have the gift. He confesses
to stumbling and mumbling at times when sharing one on one.
We are all called to evangelize, but not all of us have the gift of
evangelism.
Jim
|
| 431.21 | Why do so many Christians hide their Light? | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Tue Mar 15 1994 11:19 | 12 |
| My Pastor has said from the pulpit there is no gift of evangelism...
I agree with him. The problem is when you start talking about "gift of
evangelism", it tends to relieve those who believe they do not have the
gift from evangelizing. THIS IS NOT TRUE. Though you may not be a
"talented" soulwinner, we are all commanded to reflect Christ and lead
others to Him.
The terminology is what I am odds with, not the calling.
|
| 431.22 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Tue Mar 15 1994 11:31 | 40 |
| > The terminology is what I am odds with, not the calling.
Then we should not have a problem with each other's views.
Call it what you like, gift or not a gift, it still boils down
to the same thing.
As for "relieving people," you say "we are all commanded to reflect Christ
and lead others to Him." I would say that this is a stretch of the Great
Commission to go and teach the gospel:
Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
The terminology you use is "lead others to Him." Were I your pastor,
I might say that we are not to lead others but we are all to teach and
baptize. Teaching and leading are different things, are they not?
Well, in terminology, they may or may not be.
Therefore, with due respect to your pastor, I disagree with him (and you) that
there is a (terminological) gift of evangelism. And for those whose talent it
is, it would be sin not to use it. And for those who talent it is not, it
would be sin to FORCE it, unless and until the Holy Spirit places that person
in your path and says, "Tell them about Me." Forcing something, and
"sacrificing" outside of your gift calling does not help the body of
Christ to function smoothly; but obedience (rather than sacrifice) may
call you into areas for a time in which your natural talents may not lie,
such as evangelism. So, I agree with Jim when he said, "We are all called
to evangelize, but not all of us have the gift of evangelism."
One more thing, especially about terminology and your title "why do so many
Christians hide their light?" I firmly believe that we are all to be Light
and salt in the world, but I do not believe this means "evangelism" in each
case as I understand the meaning of evangelism. One can be shining brightly
for God without "evngelizing" another, but their life will indeed be
evangelism, nonetheless.
Mark
|
| 431.23 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Tue Mar 15 1994 12:08 | 111 |
| This conversation seems to have turned towards a "bashing" tone of who
is and who isn't evangelizing, equalling who is good and who is bad...
I don't like that intonation and want to dispel it up front. This
note is meant to encourage and help possibly with ideas on how we can
better fulfill the great commission... gift or no gift. I need the help
and am hoping to receive good suggestions.
With this in mind, you may not wish to read further my response to
Mark, however, I want to respond to Mark as honestly and heartfelt as I
can and learn from our struggle.
>Then we should not have a problem with each other's views.
>Call it what you like, gift or not a gift, it still boils down
>to the same thing.
I don't think so. I still stand by the fact that there are many
Christians who never tell another soul about there salvation because
they're not gifted.
This gift is something that can be developed. Find someone with whom
is forward and outspoken [but Spirit lead] and go with them on
visitation. Then while one may not be gifted, one can become
effective. God created us with the ability to learn and grow.
>As for "relieving people," you say "we are all commanded to reflect Christ
>and lead others to Him." I would say that this is a stretch of the Great
>Commission to go and teach the gospel:
Matthew 28
19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of
the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Leading others to him and teaching in this particular instance of
conversation was meant to mean the same. Teaching is leading, imho.
>Therefore, with due respect to your pastor, I disagree with him (and you) that
>there is a (terminological) gift of evangelism.
Not sure about what you mean here. I think we are given *talents* by
the Lord, the "gift of gab" [as we've all heard said] could most easily
transfer into the "gift of evangelism".
>And for those whose talent is, it would be sin not to use it.
Agreed
>And for those who talent it is not, it would be sin to FORCE it, unless
>and until the Holy Spirit places that person in your path and says,
>"Tell them about Me."
But we are told by the Holy Spirit to tell others about Him already.
It's a matter of readiness. Yes, an untimely self driven witness is
wrong. But a Christian who never looks to be used in this way is sin
as well. Sorry, but that is how I see it. We don't need to wait for
the commandment to witness, we just need to be willing and READY to
witness when God places that opportunity in our paths.
One who isn't "looking" for the opportunity, will not recognize it when
it comes. Again, teaching for a beginner could simply be leading them
to someone who already knows how to. And they can learn from that
individual.
>Forcing something, and "sacrificing" outside of
>your gift
So, who's forcing? There should be an AWARENESS that we are COMMANDED
to be a light. If there is any forcing going on, who's doing it?
>calling does not help the body of Christ to function smoothly;
>but obedience (rather than sacrifice) may call you into areas for a time
>in which your natural talents may not lie,
I agree except for the "a time" portion. A commandment is all the
time, however opportunities may not be all the time. Again, we should
be in a prepared state of readiness.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>such as evangelism. So, I agree with Jim when he said, "We are all called
>to evangelize, but not all of us have the gift of evangelism."
Actually, I agree with this statement as well, as I've tried to
demonstrate in the above statements regarding readiness.
>One more thing, especially about terminology and your title "why do so many
>Christians hide their light?" I firmly believe that we are all to be Light
>and salt in the world, but I do not believe this means "evangelism" in each
>case as I understand the meaning of evangelism. One can be shining brightly
>for God without "evngelizing" another, but their life will indeed be
>evangelism, nonetheless.
I agree with this. No problem here. However, as I did for near 6
years of employment at Digital, sat on my Christianity and let
people compliment my character based on *me*. You know every person
in the group I support currently knows I'm a Christian and I'm held
accountable for my behavior. If I say or do something they don't think
is "Christian", I'll hear about it, usually in a kind way, albeit
poignant. Now, I'm not saying that we should wear a sign and jump and
down and shout Praise God! :-), however, there are subtle ways in
letting the folks around you know you love Him. When something good
happens in your life, and you share it with another person, give God
the glory for it or perhaps a co-worker confides a hardship, share
Christ, there are ways to let others know without being a flaming idiot
about it. I am reminded of the King who was eaten with worms because
he didn't give God the glory. God's grace is so abundant, but his
principles haven't changed since the worms....
|
| 431.24 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Tue Mar 15 1994 14:19 | 117 |
| ================================================================================
Note 431.23 JULIET::MORALES_NA
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
> This conversation seems to have turned towards a "bashing" tone of who
Good greif, Nancy, where did you get this impression!? I am surprized that
you think this.
> I don't think so. I still stand by the fact that there are many
> Christians who never tell another soul about there salvation because
> they're not gifted.
Yeah?
> This gift is something that can be developed. Find someone with whom
> is forward and outspoken [but Spirit lead] and go with them on
> visitation. Then while one may not be gifted, one can become
> effective. God created us with the ability to learn and grow.
I agree. If you mean by gift, a talent. Technically a gift is given and a
talent is developed. But this fits with your definition that evangelism is
not a gift. (See how jargon can get in the way?)
> Leading others to him and teaching in this particular instance of
> conversation was meant to mean the same. Teaching is leading, imho.
In your humble opinion. But isn't that what we've been discussing?
And now it is "bashing" to discuss it?
>>Therefore, with due respect to your pastor, I disagree with him (and you) that
>>there is a (terminological) gift of evangelism.
>
> Not sure about what you mean here. I think we are given *talents* by
> the Lord, the "gift of gab" [as we've all heard said] could most easily
> transfer into the "gift of evangelism".
The gift of gab can easily transfer also to gossip. What is the point? That
one can develop a talent? And if someone is intensly shy? Would you force a
change in their temperament? Do you think the Holy Spirit would, or perhaps
that the Holy Spirit would give the Spirit of boldness WHEN NECESSARY and
when the way is prepared by the Holy Spirit?
> >And for those who talent it is not, it would be sin to FORCE it, unless
> >and until the Holy Spirit places that person in your path and says,
> >"Tell them about Me."
>
> But we are told by the Holy Spirit to tell others about Him already.
Scriptural support please. (Not really. I agree with you. But it is the
same as claiming that evangelism is not a gift.)
> It's a matter of readiness. Yes, an untimely self driven witness is
> wrong. But a Christian who never looks to be used in this way is sin
> as well.
I disagree. There are lots of things that people don't LOOK for. Take Jonah
for example. He did more than not look for the opportunity to evangelize
Ninevah. He went so far as to run from it! The point is that obedience to
the call when the call is made is what is necessary - not looking for ways,
but being sensitive to ways that present themselves. Looking for ways can
"force the spirit" as the saying goes. I'm look for balance in terminology,
because I believe we believe the same thing.
> One who isn't "looking" for the opportunity, will not recognize it when
> it comes.
This is an opinion and I have experienced otherwise. I am glad that your
temperament dictates otherwise for you.
> >Forcing something, and "sacrificing" outside of
> >your gift
>
> So, who's forcing? There should be an AWARENESS that we are COMMANDED
> to be a light. If there is any forcing going on, who's doing it?
Let's not mistake light for the heat of passion and zeal.
> >calling does not help the body of Christ to function smoothly;
> >but obedience (rather than sacrifice) may call you into areas for a time
> >in which your natural talents may not lie,
>
> I agree except for the "a time" portion. A commandment is all the
> time, however opportunities may not be all the time. Again, we should
> be in a prepared state of readiness.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Being in a state of readiness is being idle until called into action. How are
we differing? I agree.
>>such as evangelism. So, I agree with Jim when he said, "We are all called
>>to evangelize, but not all of us have the gift of evangelism."
>
> Actually, I agree with this statement as well, as I've tried to
> demonstrate in the above statements regarding readiness.
What I see is your temperament speaking about the very same thing that my
temperament speaks to, and the same as the others. The balance, I believe,
is not in a temperament-driven definition, but an understanding that
different people will approach evangelism in different ways, as people will
be receptive to different kinds of evangelism. These different kinds may be
unrecognizable (perhaps) to some temperament types, but are no less winning
to some souls.
>Now, I'm not saying that we should wear a sign and jump and down and shout
>Praise God! :-), however, there are subtle ways in letting the folks around
>you know you love Him.
What do you mean by subtle? You see, we're using the same language to
confuse one another unnecessarily. A person living his or her life may be
subtly witnessing. And you think I'm nit picking here, don't you? I'm not.
I'm trying to illustrate that the commandment to be light and salt is
expressed differently in people and what is characteristically thought of as
evangelism may not be how some people express their witness which will
evangelize some and not others.
Mark_who_is_NOT_bashing_nor_ever_was_(when_he_was_prompted_to_respond
_to_this_note)
|
| 431.25 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Tue Mar 15 1994 14:44 | 82 |
| > Good greif, Nancy, where did you get this impression!? I am surprized that
> you think this.
It could turn into a those who are spiritual will and those who are not
spiritual won't... and I don't want to go down that path...
perhaps I worded it too strong in the first sentence. I apologize if
you took it as you were bashing... not at all.
>The gift of gab can easily transfer also to gossip. What is the point? That
>one can develop a talent?
Yes
>And if someone is intensly shy? Would you force a
>change in their temperament?
Wouldn't have to.
>Do you think the Holy Spirit would, or perhaps
>that the Holy Spirit would give the Spirit of boldness WHEN NECESSARY and
>when the way is prepared by the Holy Spirit?
Absolutely... it all boils down to AWARENESS and then READINESS or
obedience to do so.
> I disagree. There are lots of things that people don't LOOK for. Take Jonah
> for example. He did more than not look for the opportunity to evangelize
> Ninevah. He went so far as to run from it! The point is that obedience to
> the call when the call is made is what is necessary - not looking for ways,
> but being sensitive to ways that present themselves. Looking for ways can
> "force the spirit" as the saying goes. I'm look for balance in terminology,
> because I believe we believe the same thing.
You say you disagree and then write beautifully the intent of my
conviction about soul winning. I am not talking about force, please
hear this. I am talking about AWARENESS and READINESS = Obedience.
I think we agree and are hung up on semantics...
> So, who's forcing? There should be an AWARENESS that we are COMMANDED
> to be a light. If there is any forcing going on, who's doing it?
> Let's not mistake light for the heat of passion and zeal.
Without COMPASSION [not passion] there is no reason to win souls.
Ezekiel 33:8 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt
surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that
wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at
thine hand.
I believe that when the VISION of souls lost for eternity becomes
*real*, then zeal which can be mislead and untimely turns into
compassion. Compassion the one that says, if not for the Grace of God
and someone who lead me [taught me] about the Lord, I'd be lost for
eternity.
> What I see is your temperament speaking about the very same thing that my
> temperament speaks to, and the same as the others. The balance, I believe,
> is not in a temperament-driven definition, but an understanding that
> different people will approach evangelism in different ways, as people will
> be receptive to different kinds of evangelism. These different kinds may be
> unrecognizable (perhaps) to some temperament types, but are no less winning
> to some souls.
No problem with this statement at all. I agree.
> I'm trying to illustrate that the commandment to be light and salt is
> expressed differently in people and what is characteristically thought of as
> evangelism may not be how some people express their witness which will
> evangelize some and not others.
Please, please, this is EXACTLY what I'm looking to learn. This very
paragraph encompasses the purpose for my starting this note. I want to
learn how it is EXPRESSED in others. Not WHO should be expressing it.
Thank you Mark for taking time to respond, I believe that I've come to
an understanding on somethings as a result.
Nancy
|
| 431.26 | Reposted for emphasis - wanting to learn | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Tue Mar 15 1994 14:45 | 11 |
| >I'm trying to illustrate that the commandment to be light and salt is
>expressed differently in people and what is characteristically thought
>of as evangelism may not be how some people express their witness which
>will evangelize some and not others.
Please, please, this is EXACTLY what I'm looking to learn. This
very paragraph encompasses the purpose for my starting this note. I
want to learn how it is EXPRESSED in others. Not WHO should be expressing
it.
|
| 431.27 | Much Faith Needed | STRATA::BARBIERI | God can be so appreciated! | Wed Mar 16 1994 13:25 | 30 |
| Hi,
I haven't really followed this string, but one big thing that
I am thoughtful of is that the specific manner of soul-winning
is every bit as the diversity of people who are 'being won' as
well as that individual's present circumstances.
I'm sure what and how Jesus talked to the woman at the well
and Nicodemus were very different. One type was just right for
the woman at the well and another type was just right for
Nicodemus. And the reason what was said was just right was
because it was tailored for that person right then and there
and even accomadated exactly where that person's heart was at.
And I think the above is kind of neat because it makes it so
completely apparent that when we are doing 'soul-winning', the
only true approach is an attitude that we haven't a clue - that
we must walk 100% in faith. Almost like "God, I don't know what
to say or what not to say, I'm not even sure who to be for this
person, but Lord I believe, help Thou mine unbelief and this soul-
winning effort I place in your hands."
It all has to be placed in His hands.
When you think about it...how unique each person's heart is and
how peculiar the needs of each heart is, it would seem to make
sense the perfect soul-winning work would require complete faith-
dependence on God.
Tony
|
| 431.28 | Much Faith Needed | STRATA::BARBIERI | God can be so appreciated! | Wed Mar 16 1994 13:27 | 31 |
| Hi,
I haven't really followed this string, but one big thing that
I am thoughtful of is that the specific manner of soul-winning
is every bit as diverse as the diversity of people who are 'being
won' as well as that individual's present circumstances.
I'm sure what and how Jesus talked to the woman at the well
and Nicodemus were very different. One type was just right for
the woman at the well and another type was just right for
Nicodemus. And the reason what was said was just right was
because it was tailored for that person right then and there
and even accomadated exactly where that person's heart was at
right at that specific point in time.
And I think the above is kind of neat because it makes it so
completely apparent that when we are doing 'soul-winning', the
only true approach is an attitude that we haven't a clue - that
we must walk 100% in faith. Almost like "God, I don't know what
to say or what not to say, I'm not even sure who to be for this
person, but Lord I believe, help Thou mine unbelief and this soul-
winning effort I place in your hands."
It all has to be placed in His hands.
When you think about it...how unique each person's heart is and
how peculiar the needs of each heart is, it would seem to make
sense the perfect soul-winning work would require complete faith-
dependence on God.
Tony
|
| 431.29 | not the end of discussion, but a place to start... | POWDML::SMCCONNELL | Next year, in Jerusalem! | Wed Mar 16 1994 13:55 | 24 |
| Seems to me, the "winning" is done by G-d.
Interesting play-on-words there with "is done", in light of what took
place *before* the foundation of the world - but that's anudder topic.
Do we *really* trust the Bible that tells us our old selves with our
sinful ways was put to death in the Messiah and that we are new
creations in Him? Do we *really* trust that it is no longer the old us
that lives, but He who lives *in* us? If we were to "let that mind be
in us", what would that mean to the lost person watching our life?
Our job is not to do the "winning". Our job is to love G-d and love
others as ourselves, to share the truly good news of what G-d has done
for us with others - *not* to carve notches in our "gospel-belts"; but
because we really do care, and to live our lives wholly yielded to Him,
as clay vessels that hold *great* treasure - the very Messiah who seeks
to minister to a dying world *through* His body - the believers.
If we do this, we will undoubtedly be asked to give a reasoned response
for the hope we have within us and G-d Himself will have displayed His
wonderful love and won over one of His dear ones who was without Him
for so long.
Steve
|
| 431.30 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Wed Mar 16 1994 15:23 | 8 |
| > Seems to me, the "winning" is done by G-d.
Hi Steve, great note, but may I remind that what you seem is not what
God said.. :-)
Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he
that winneth souls is wise.
|
| 431.31 | | CSLALL::HENDERSON | Friend will you be ready | Wed Mar 16 1994 15:40 | 25 |
| RE: <<< Note 431.29 by POWDML::SMCCONNELL "Next year, in Jerusalem!" >>>
> for us with others - *not* to carve notches in our "gospel-belts"; but
> because we really do care, and to live our lives wholly yielded to Him,
> as clay vessels that hold *great* treasure - the very Messiah who seeks
> to minister to a dying world *through* His body - the believers.
Yes! My pastor, while being burdened for lost souls, a few years ago
stopped publishing statistics around how many were saved and baptised,
etc for this very reason. We have a plan for sharing the gospel that
we use that is very effective, however it can be modified to fit the
situation. I've seen churches that approach "soul winning" from
a recruiting standpoint as if the most important thing is their membership
in their church as opposed to the saving of a soul. My church goes out
with the intent to see people saved. Yes, we'd love to have them in the
church and growing and we certainly encourage that..but we want to see them
saved first..and we will never pressure anyone. We always want to leave
them in a position that should they reject salavation at that point they'll
not slam the door on the next person to come by.
Jim
|
| 431.32 | | ICTHUS::YUILLE | Thou God seest me | Wed Mar 16 1994 15:59 | 52 |
| � 431.30
�> Seems to me, the "winning" is done by G-d.
� he that winneth souls is wise.
I don't think I would argue with the deduction that God is wise.... :-)
The task, gift or calling of 'evangelist', active as a channel of salvation
for others, does not do the job of saving, which is the work of Jesus'
once-for-all sacrifice. Similarly, the work of conviction of the heart is
the work of the Holy Spirit (John 16:8). But the yielding of oneself to
be the channel of God's operation is what wins approval in Proverbs 11:30.
The second half of the verse is a result of the first half.
� The fruit of the righteous
The only way to righteousness is in modelling ourselves upon the LROD
Jesus.
� is a tree of life
The eternal result of receiving His righteousness is a restoration to a new
dimensions of the relationship lost in the garden of Eden. With Jesus
righteousness, we are enabled to eat of the tree of life without eternal
condemnation. The tree that was lost to us in the garden [without its
fruit being eaten] is restored for our fullness (Genesis 3:24, Revelation
22:2).
� and he that winneth souls is wise.
The temporal result of receiving His righteousness is that the Holy Spirit
Who then dwells within us (Ephesians 1:13-14) is not silent or restrained,
but speaks and acts through us as we honour Him. He can be quenched, to
our shame (Ephesians 4:30), but those who are wise - who humbly wait on the
wisdom of God (James 1:5) - are rewarded by their lives bearing fruit.
Because He Who is honoured through them convicts those around...
As has been mentioned, there are many types of people in the world, and for
each type of Christian, in his natural character, there are particular
types of people who he is designed to reach with the gospel. By his way of
life, attitude, behaviour, etc. There are also those who have a particular
gift of evangelistic ministry. I believe that Proverbs 11:30 means using
whatever expression of the LORD we have to the full.
As in the parable of the talents, He does not expect us to perform the
calling of another. He doesn't call all Christians to be Billy Grahams;
some people respond to a different approach, or need a different
preparation. But everyone has that basic responsibility and potential for
witness, which, if they are 'wise' in fulfilling the righteousness He
desires to bestow, they will fulfil, and in doing so, be fulfilled
themselves.
Andrew
|
| 431.33 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Thu Mar 17 1994 09:17 | 10 |
|
A passive Christian has failed to understand what Christ wants
from all of us. A Christian who `goes his own way', unconcerned
about the salvation of others, does not love with the heart of
Jesus. [Evangelism] is not a mission exclusive to the [clergy].
The Lord calls all of us to be, by our example and word,
instruments of the stream of grace which springs up to eternal
life.
-- J. Escriv�, "In Love with the Church"
|
| 431.34 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Thu Mar 17 1994 12:32 | 7 |
| We win [over], God Saves
We tithe, God Uses
We teach, God Changes [hearts]
We are the instrument ... He is the Conductor.
|
| 431.35 | God Soul Wins Through Us | STRATA::BARBIERI | God can be so appreciated! | Thu Mar 17 1994 12:35 | 21 |
| Hi Nance,
I just want to reply to the scripture that says that we
are the ones who 'soul-win.'
Oftentimes, the language of scripture points to the person
as the soul-winner, but surely, the inference is that it
is God soul-winning through the person.
An example of this is the verse in Revelation that speaks
of the 144,000 who wash their own robes. But, we know that
sanctification is 100% the work of Christ. For example,
in Zechariah, it is not Joshua who takes off his filthy
garments and puts on clean ones; a leopard cannot change his
spots.
Anyway...my point is that that is just the language of scripture.
There is not a solitary 'godly' thing we can do outside of
Christ doing it in and through us.
Tony
|
| 431.36 | | JULIET::MORALES_NA | Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze | Thu Mar 17 1994 13:02 | 7 |
| .35
Absolutely... there is *not* a solitary thing we can do without Christ.
Those who are without Christ are the unsaved. :-) So those of us who
are saved, have Christ, correct?
|
| 431.37 | Terminology Disconnect Perhaps? | STRATA::BARBIERI | God can be so appreciated! | Fri Mar 18 1994 12:39 | 32 |
| Hi Nance,
I suffer from a terminology disconnect with that one.
I believe that there is only one thing to be delivered
from...and that is sin. There is sin in my heart and thus
to that extent there is some salvation work to do.
When I think of being saved, more and more I think in terms
of being delivered from sin in my heart for I cannot see
my Father face to face because (if I did) I would be consumed
by the fatal combination of His full presence and sin.
And so when I think of 'having' Christ, I think in terms of
how much of Him I have allowed to take control of my life.
And I know that this is incomplete as well. I am not allowing
Him full domain. There is unbelief.
Yes, God gave Himself in His Son to me, but no, I have not
allowed myself to fully receive. If I had, I would be setting the
world ablaze just as Christ did.
This is all probably a terminology disconnect. I am _NOT_ saying
that if I died right now I would not be resurrected. If I die
today, I have the assurance that come resurrection day He will
raise me up to be with Him forever.
But, the truth is...if I really had Christ ALL THE WAY, I would
be on absolute fire. I would be nothing but a living sacrifice
poured out.
Tony
|
| 431.38 | | TOKNOW::METCALFE | Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers | Fri Mar 18 1994 15:52 | 72 |
| >> I'm trying to illustrate that the commandment to be light and salt is
>> expressed differently in people and what is characteristically thought of as
>> evangelism may not be how some people express their witness which will
>> evangelize some and not others.
>
> Please, please, this is EXACTLY what I'm looking to learn. This very
> paragraph encompasses the purpose for my starting this note. I want to
> learn how it is EXPRESSED in others. Not WHO should be expressing it.
I don't have time to read after .26 (sorry gents).
The Great Commandment precedes the Great Commission. Meaning: evangelism is
contained within worship; evangelism may occur without worship (proselytizing),
but evangelism springs out of the first commandment to love God.
Loving God is an upward expression; worship as an end in itself and not
a means to an end. True love is an emptying of self for another. Jesus
said, Greater love hath no man than to lay down his life for another.
And this doesn't necessarily mean dying, though it encompassed that as well.
In a love relationship with a spouse, the 100-100 ratio works best (the 50-50
business doesn't work well, if at all). Giving all without expecataion of
return. When this is truly understood between spouses, love is given not
to receive back but because love is an end in itself. The end in itself
*often* has a byproduct or return on investment. But we can see that in
Christ's case, it is not always the case because he died for us "while
we were yet sinners" and in rebellion to Him. And so it is not always the
case that loving another will reap a requited love in return. And besides,
we defeat the purpose when we love to get something, when we tithe to become
free of debt, when we pray to be free of ailments, etc. etc.
By now, you're wondering what this has to do with how evangelism is expressed
differently in different people. Take any five couples in your church who
are obviously in love (I hope you can find five) and see how they express
their love for each other. Take notes. Some will be more affectionate
in public, some more reserved, some gushy romantic (yech), and some with
a deeper passion (still waters run deep, you know). All of this is love,
all of these are expressions of love. Flowers for one, candlelight for
another, a day at the amusement park for a third.
I don't think we've disagreed at all that every Christian will evangelize,
but I think the issue lies with the definition of evangelism being traditionally
thought of in terms of presenting the gospel, almost in formula fashion.
In fact, evangelism occurs because the gospel is presented - in word or
in deed, in many ways that communicate what a spirit-filled life is about
to a spirit-deprived world. I'm developing some thoughts for Sunday
about the Word and how we don't have to do anything (except obey ;-)) because
it is the Word that does the work. All we have to do is present the Word
to a world who doesn't have it - and then let the Word do His work. It
*may* be presented in a traditional evangelical way of "witnessing" or
it may come to you as someone seeking help, or it may be that you present
the words as a person who scatters seed on many soils.
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall
not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it
shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.
In essence, all we have to do is obey God, and He will lead us to those to
whom we will witness, or He will bring someone to us, or He will use us
without our knowing it through our obedience. And to this latter end (using
us without us knowing it through our obedience), it may be for our benefit
so that we don't begin to think that we, as instruments and presenters of
the Word, have anything to do with another person's salvation.
Oh, we can and should rejoice when we are knowingly used; rejoicing is
different than skimming glory away from God (taking some credit). The
Evangelist in the pulpit will receive his reward in heaven because of
his obedience and not for the number of people that lined the altars.
The Word accomplishes what God desires. He speaks and it happens.
Wow. I love it!
Mark
|