Conference yukon::christian_v7

I don't think I understand the question that is being asked in point 0,
can the anonymous noter clarify or give an example of what he or she is
asking ?

Leslie

I think I understand the question.

The first assertion is that the world is God's.  99% of the readers and
99.44% of the writers to this conference can agree with that.

The second assertion is that there are places we cannot go, because other
people have laid claim to certain tracts of land.

The question is, when did property ownership come into being?

The answer is: when mankind changed from a purely nomadic hunter-gatherer
society into a city-based agrarian society.

I'll leave Biblical issues associated with this to others.

/john

 Th anonymous noter indicates that Mr Covert's reply answers the question to
 their satisfaction.




 Jim Co Mod

  Sorry for any confusion.  This topic is write enabled.  Notes referring
 to the write locking of the topic have been either set hidden or deleted.




 Jim Co Mod

� This is God's world, we are all His children. In God's world we are not
� able to go from place to place and stop anywhere we wish. What I was
� wondering was at what point did God allow us to make claims to what part of
� His land we could keep for ourselves? 

I felt I had to add to this one.  Not necessarily for the anonymous
submitter, and overlooking the inaccuracy of 'we are all His children'; but
rather for completeness.  There's a lot of verses which talk about the
allocation of land, and they combine to give a very real perspective on
God's plan for us, with us.  I haven't time for more than a few just now,
but for what I have... 


Acts 17:26
 "From one man He made every nation of men that they should inhabit the 
  whole earth; and He determined the times set for them, and the exact places 
  where they should live."

Jeremiah 27:6
 "Now I will hand all your countries over to my servant Nebuchadnezzar king 
  of Babylon; I will make even the wild animals subject to him.  All nations 
  will serve him and his son� and his grandson� until the time for his land 
  comes and then many nations and great kings will subjugate him."

� Nebuchadnezzar's son (named Nabopoleser, I believe), not mentioned in
  scripture, who preferred not to live in Babylon.
� Nebuchadnezzar's grandson Belshazzar, of the feast in Daniel 5, who was
  overcome by the Medes and Persians as prophesied in Isaiah 44:27-45:3.

Genesis 9:1 - God's command
 "Then God blessed Noah and his sons, saying to them 'Be fruitful and 
  increase in number and fill the earth'"

Genesis 11:4 - Man's rebellion
 "Come, let us build a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may 
  make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole 
  earth."

Genesis 11:8 - God's overruling protection
 "So the LORD scattered them from there over all the earth..."

Isaiah 45:18

 "For this is what the LORD says - He Who created the heavens, He is God;
  He Who fashioned it and made the earth, He founded it;
  He did not create it to be empty,
	but formed it to be inhabited..."

Then there's the promise of the land to Abraham and his descendents; the
laws given to prevent the moving of landmarks / property boundaries, etc, 
the parable of the tenants the reference to Israel as tenants of the land, 
rather than owners), all pointing back to God as the One Who apportions 
who may live where.  Which we break at our peril....

						God bless
								Andrew

Okay, now that I understand what this is about - to Andrew's list should
also be added the Biblical laws about the 7th year - letting the land
in Israel rest by not cultivating it, the law concerning returning the 
land back to its original ownership - I can't remember if this is every 7
years, or only the year of Jubilee (50th year), and those concerning 
allowing a kinsman-redeemer to buy back the land for someone who has lost 
it.  - Will have to look up Biblical references later - don't have a 
concordance handy or the time to do it right now.

Leslie

Re: .7

Hi Leslie,

Leviticus Chapter 25 is the reference for the year of Jubilee.  Land only
reverted to the original owner in the year of jubilee.  
      
In Him,
                           
Graham

Yes, and God also did allot land to Israel; the daughters of Zelophahad
also got land ownership.

It seems to me that when the land becomes more filled, then people 
either need or define space to call "home".  To address the question of
the haves and the havenots, though, and the acquisition of say, millions
of acres where someone doesn't have even an eighth of an acre, we should
also consider that Abraham and Job were very rich and powerful men.
(While Abraham was a nomad, he did stake out his territory, giving
his nephew Lot the choice - and Lot chose towards Sodom.)

Buying and selling of land went on at the very beginnings of the OT, too.
Wasn't it Abraham who bought land to bury his wife?  (Uh oh, caught me
in a question mark.)

Now, it is interesting that Jesus didn't own land or home base.  He did
have some friends where he stayed from time to time (Mary, Martha, and
Lazarus) but by and large he was often "on the road."

With all this, I think the admonition to be content whatever the circumstances
we find ourselves in is very practical and keeps from failing the 10th 
commandment test about coveting our neighbor's property, etc.  

Mark

� (While Abraham was a nomad, he did stake out his territory, giving
� his nephew Lot the choice - and Lot chose towards Sodom.)

Interesting that immediately Lot had left for his alloted portion, God 
promised Abram (as he was then) that he'd get the lot anyway ... 
Genesis 13:14-15,17 :
 "The LORD said to Abram after Lto had parted from him, 'Lift up your eyes 
  from where you are and look north and south, east and west.  All the land 
  that yuo see I will give to you and your offspring for ever ..... Go, walk 
  through the length and breadth of the land, for I am giving it to you.'"

Abraham's purchase of the cave for Sarah's grave is Genesis 23:, where also 
Abraham himself, Isaac, Rebekah, Jacob and Leah were buried (Genesis 
49:29-33), but not Rachel (Genesis 48:7).  More a family vault.

Places have significance in the LORD's plan.  Like the temple site, pointed 
to in Deuteronomy 12:5-7, 2 Samuel 24:18-25, 1 Chronicles 21:22...22:1.


Guess this gets away from 'where we can live', though.  In a lot of places 
it's underlined that aliens were welcome to come and live under Israelite / 
God's laws.  That seems to be the most significant point.  The allotment to 
to each tribe was to be in proportion to their numbers, and the perception 
of the earth belonging to God to allocate in no way precludes movement - as 
is evidenced by His leading the Israelites around before they came into the 
inheritance of the land.

� Yes, and God also did allot land to Israel; the daughters of Zelophahad
� also got land ownership.
The significance of their ownership was that as he only had daughters, the 
allocation of his area would be lost to his tribe if it could only be left 
through the male line.  This could have cumulated into horrendous 
administrative complications - if tribes were likely to possess little 
personal pockets of areas in other tribal zones, while similarly losing 
ones of their own.  So the ruling was that tribal land has to stay with the 
tribe, even in the exceptional case of a family with daughters only to 
inherit.

								Andrew

Thanks Grahm, I was pretty sure it was in Leviticus somewhere.  I just
read through it this morning - there is a lot more about land ownership/
redemption in that chapter as well, worth reading for those who want
to gain some perspective.

Leslie

    Creation Science Ministries recently held a seminar here in which I
    attended.  Ken Ham had some interesting things to say about dinosaurs
    and where they went:
    
    - He points to Job 40:15 and 41:1 as rock-solid descriptions of a 
      Bracheasaur and Plesiosaur (respectively).  Job is the 2nd oldest 
      OT book.
    - Before sin, there was no death.  He uses this to claim that all of
      God's creations were herbivores before the fall.
    - *Every* land animal was brought onto Noah's ark.  
    - Ancient historical records show that creatures that were called
      "dragons" were rock-solid descriptions of dinosaurs (a term invented
      in 1841).  Over time, they were glorified to the images we know of
      today, but he maintains they were originally dinosaurs.
    - He states that the "dragons" just gradually died off, but they aren't
      all extinct yet.  Man continues to discover new creatures all the
      time, meanwhile thousands of species have become extinct.
    - In 1977, a Japanese fishing boat recovered a Plesiosaur carcass from
      the Pacific Ocean.  There have been other instances of such
      discoveries, but this is the most recent.
    - Today there are reports of a huge dinosaur-like creature in Central
      Africa.  Ham played a recording of the sounds this creature makes and
      it sounds just like something out of Jurassic Park.

    re the fishing boat
    they've been finding really "old" fish for a while...
    some even more recent than 1977 - seems I recall reading about some in
    a magazine or newspaper...