Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Hi Wally!!!
    
    I hope a few of our Bible Study leaders will come forth here..
    
    er, uh, Greg J., Leslie J??????? :-)
    

>2.  What are the rules to interpret Bible?

There is not enough disk space...

  Hi Wally, 

  This is the first step...

  If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all 
  liberally and without reproach, and *it will* be given to him.

  James 1:5 New KJV.

  Try it Wally, see what happens.

                  Hank

    Wally,
    
    I would love to talk at length about this. Unfortunately, I have real
    work to do, so for now I just offer some quick thoughts. Please feel
    free to probe either online or offline as you wish.
    
    > 1. How do you prepare for a Bible study session?
    
    As has already been stated, you must start with prayer. It is the Holy
    Spirit that gives us wisdom (as He has given us the gift of teaching in
    the first place).
    
    Do you have a guide that you're going by? I mean, do you know what
    topic (or passage) you're going to talk about? Or is part of the
    challenge coming up with the lessons yourself? One thing you must do as
    part of the preparation is to decide what is the basic point (or
    perhaps a couple of basic points) that you want to leave with your
    class. If you spend an hour going all over the place but don't land on
    a major theme (what I call "the bottom line" to the lesson), then your
    class may have been filled with interesting info for the hour, but
    they'll likely forget most of it in the absence of an emphasized bottom
    line.
    
    When you have determined the bottom line, then you need to assemble
    your material (i.e. create an outline of sorts) so that your bottom
    line is supported. Think of it as writing a paper. You can start the
    paper with your conclusion and then support it later, or you can build
    the case and draw the conclusion at the end. (Doubtless there are
    many variations on this theme.)
    
    Since I almost always teach expositionally (i.e. go through a passage
    verse by verse as opposed to teaching topically), my "outline" is
    really just the verses I'm going to cover. I'll discuss various truths
    along the way, but I still want to emphasize a major application
    somewhere during the lesson.
    
    In going through the verses, you'll of course want to be sure that you
    know the meaning of all the words, understand the context of the
    passage, check out related passages, develop a valid application of the
    text, etc.
    
    You should also think up some methods of encouraging participation. We
    learn a lot more if we're actively involved in the thinking process.
    Sitting through a lecture results in very little real learning. Getting
    the participation is often the most difficult of the whole thing.
    Coming up with interesting, thought-provoking discussion questions is a
    challenge, but it does pay off.
    
    > 2. What are the rules to interpret Bible?
    
    There are many. You may want to buy a book or two on "how to study the
    Bible". Let me cite a few biggies that pop into my head right now...
    
    A. Realize that the Bible is the inspired Word of God.
    
       If you don't realize this, then your teaching of the Bible will be
       no different from your teaching Shakespeare, and the resulting
       changes in peoples' lives will be similar (i.e. nil). I don't want
       to get into a rathole here, but I also believe you must realize
       that the Bible is inerrant. If you allow for errors, then you or
       your class will be tempted to second-guess what God has said, and
       His truths will be diluted (at best), or even corrupted.
    
    B. Understand the type of literature you're dealing with.
    
       You would not interpret the Psalms in the same way you'd interpret
       Leviticus. You would not interpret Acts in the same way you'd
       interpret Romans. Understand what type of literature it is so that
       you can "rightly divide" it. Some passages are didactic (i.e.
       intended to convey doctrine), some are poetic, some are historical,
       some include metaphore, hyperbole, etc.
    
    C. Know the context of the passage, and interpret accordingly.
    
    D. Compare Scripture against Scripture.
    
       The Bible is its own best commentary. When properly understood,
       no passage will contradict another passage. Rather, passages
       help to shed light on other passages. If you discover what you
       think is a contradiction between two passages (or between a
       passage and a known fact of life), then you do not have a
       proper understanding of at least one of the passages.
    
    E. Interpret difficult passages in the light of the easy ones, not
       the other way around.
    
    > 3. What are the good tools, reference books etc. do you use?
    
    I have lots of reference books. I mostly use concordances, cross-
    reference Bibles, word-study books, Bible dictionaries, and Bible
    encyclopedias. (Bibliography supplied upon request.) Commentaries have
    some value, but I only go to them last - after I've pored over the
    Bible itself to see what the Spirit will teach me directly from the
    Word.
    
    > 4. How do you conduct a Bible study session?
    
    Styles vary greatly. When I teach, I want to be sure that the class
    doesn't get bored. I want them to be actively participating in the
    lesson. This means I move around. I sit for a bit, get up and talk from
    standing, move around the room, write on the board, etc.
    
    A typical lesson in my class has me reading the passage (or asking for
    a volunteer - I never put someone on the spot to read or answer any
    question, because some people don't like to be called on) and then
    setting the stage, i.e. give background for the passage, perhaps give
    an overview of the lesson, perhaps show my hand (i.e. let them in on
    the bottom line) - or perhaps I'll start by asking some tough
    questions, the answers to which will lead the class to start thinking
    in terms that will support my bottom line.
    
    I then go through the passage, verse by verse, ensuring that everyone
    understands what is being said. The rule is: know what it says; know
    what it means; apply what it means. As we march through the passage, I
    always am writing on the board. Most of the time, I'll end up with a
    list of things that remain on the board, so that as we near the closing
    we can go over this list, and reinforce the bottom line
    
    Please feel free to ask questions, make comments, etc. There is
    certainly more than one way to conduct a Bible study, and even though
    I've done it for years, I am always working on honing my skills. I love
    to study and teach the Word! I hope you will too.
    
    	BD�

Good note Barry.

Our studies vary quite a bit.  For our the group that meets in our
house, it is a bit more informal - it is a group learning effort and
we have lots of discussion, though one person is responsible for leading
the study.  We rotate who leads.

Preparation to be leader includes prayer, and research using the tools
that Barry mentioned - Bible, concordance, Bible handbooks and atlases,
commentaries, and others.  Preparation by the group includes reading the
passage beforehand and prayer.  Leadership in these sessions tends to be
low key because its a very participatory group.

Adult Sunday school classes are much more a lecture type thing, more formal
if you will, although preparation includes the same things prayer, research,
and thought.

Leslie

    I'll throw in a note about how we conduct our "corporate" Bible study. 
    We use a method dubbed "chapter summary" (we go through a book a
    chapter each week).  We encourage all to come prepared to share
    according to a set format.  Only those who have prepared are asked to
    participate in the time of sharing (this keeps the time more orderly
    than someone "piping in" with an off-the-cuff thought).  The format of
    chapter summary is quite simple (I believe it is for the most part a
    condensation of a method introduced by the Navigators).  It involves
    three questions:
    1) What does the chapter say?
         This involves breaking down the chapter into an outline of the
         major thoughts or sections in it.  We also call this the "spiritual
         teaching".
    2) What does it mean to me?
         This involves the way that the chapter spoke to the individual --
         the key thought or emphasis that the Lord spoke to him/her.  We
         refer to this part as the "spiritual meaning".
    3) What am I going to do about it?
         How can I practically apply what I have seen in this chapter to my
         life?  We also encourage a memory verse along with this.
    We also give the chapter a brief "theme" and a key verse from the
    chapter.  Then, at the meeting, one person leads a time of sharing,
    beginning with theme/key verse, then teaching, then meaning, then
    applications/memory verses.
    
    To me, a time of corporate sharing is a wonderful way to see new things
    in the Bible.  I like to compare it to enjoying a diamond -- what gives
    it its beauty is the way that the light reflects differently off each
    facet.  The way that God's light is revealed to each "facet" of his
    people can reveal great beauty in His Word.
    
    Following the time of sharing, a brother speaks on the chapter.
    
    Mark L.

    re .4 Excellent note Barry.
    
	Another important point and probably the most difficult is to 
	"know your class" so that you can pitch the study at a level
 	that they will benefit mostly from. If there is too much of
    	a knowledge difference it may be benefitical to split your
    	class.

    	Also, give your class some "pre-work" so that they come to the
    	study with more thoughts.
    
	Erich
    

    One thing I should add about our chapter summary.  We discourage the
    use of commenataries when preparing.  Not that they're all bad, but we
    want to hear what the Lord has to speak to "me", not what he spoke to
    someone else (the author of the commentary).
    
    One thing that is great is that children (that are capable of reading
    and writing) enter into the time of sharing as well.  The method is
    simple enough for them to grasp, yet allows for deeper study and
    consideration by those who are capable.
    
    Mark L.

Hi Wally,

� I need to spend a lot of time looking into various references and still
� do not feel "right".

We should have a sense of inadequacy and awe before God's truth...  Don't 
let that deter you.  His strength is manifest in our weakness.  If we look 
as if it's in our wisdom and strength - we're taking His glory, which is a 
disqualification for success in His eyes...   

1.  How do you prepare for a Bible study session?
Make sure the whole time is immersed in prayer.  Looking for the LORD's 
answers and revelation on His Word.  The passage / theme is in the mind - 
at least in the background - throughout the days before the study, and the 
LORD lights up His Word - sometimes through other Bible sutudy aids, but 
also just through meditating on the passage.   Not through worrying about 
it!

2.  What are the rules to interpret Bible?
The Bible is all God's Word.  Inspired and consistent.  If there are areas
which seem to be in contradiction, it's usually a matter of studying, and
waiting for enlightenment.  

As for detailed rules of interpretation - it depends what school of
interpretation you belong to! - but most would take a literal stance - the
Bible means what it says, unless it is an obvious metaphor (as newspapers
might use).

3.  What are the good tools, reference books etc. do you use?
This is very much a personal pereference - where you feel God lights up
His Word for you.  I use a good concordance (Youngs, though most use
Strongs, because of the extra keying to other concordances) - both include the 
Hebrew and Greek - and a smaller one for rapid access (the NIV one, as I
use the NIV - they also do a big one with Strongs numbering now).  I also 
use a Vines dictionary for comparative word meanings.  There's a lot of 
others - besides commentaries.   I guess I use these mostly for a sermon; 
for a participative study, it's more a matter of making sure you're aware
of the background (culture / situation) and context (passage text meaning).

4.  How do you conduct a Bible study session?
The hardest part is not saying too much oneself, but encouraging others to 
develop the understanding - it's much more exciting and satisfying for people 
to make the discoveries themselves, than just to listen.

This is just a quick response, as I'm tight for time - in afct I expect 
others have repied while I've been pending.... ;-}

When you have a particular date set, if you make an entry in the prayer 
requests, we'll be glad to uphold you then.  And look forward to hearing 
how it goes!

						God bless
							Andrew

    I agree with the prev 2 notes also.  Begin prep time with prayer.  
    I use several resources, including Ryre Study Bible, and the online
    bible on my PC.  My favorite commentaries are the ones by Dr. Vernon
    McGee.  He lists each verse with comments about them.  I also use notes
    from other lessons I have attended.  I also keep a little tape recorder
    next to the bed, I often wake up with thoughts I need to include, this
    is used for work, family and teaching.
    
    For the actual lesson I always start with something to promote
    discussion or to get the group to think in a different way.  The group
    I teach are single parents with who were most baptist babies and have
    heard lessons on almost everything we study.  The Holy Spirit will
    always reveal something you need to hear though, no matter how many
    times they've studied the passage.  The challenge is keep the group
    intrested and receptive to the message the Holy Spirit has for them and
    not just think, oh I've heard this before, and start daydreaming.
    
    The lesson this last week was the prodigal son, probably the most
    preached message in evangelical churches.  I felt led this time to teach
    on the legalism of the older brother and how he never claimed what was
    his.
    
    I used a letter I drafted for the opening, set in the 90's from the
    older brother to a friend about how worthless the younger brother was,
    and how foolish his father was.  The shoes were substitude for a New
    Ford Pickup, the ring for a Visa Card etc.
    
    The discussion about the letter was lively with most siding with the
    older brother.  Because the lession then showed how they had the wrong
    attitude, it got their attention.
    
    Use visual stuff if possible, I like to put stuff on a chalkboard that
    moves around, so you can turn it around at the right time, so they
    don't read it before hand.  Many times secular magazine ads will show
    exactly what you want to point out as being wrong.
    
    Here is the requirements the Single Parents put together for their
    teacher, I think it might help in preparing, if you try to meet them.
    
    1. No Lecture style teaching
    
    2. Scripture and application teaching
    
    3. Interactive methods
    
    4. Flexible - in this group special needs come up that you must be
                  ready to address 
    
    5. Sense of Humor  
    
    6. Christ Like attitude of grace towards divorce
    
    7. Aware of needs of the group
    
    8. Must become involved with members, participate in other activites
    
    9. Must have a desire to understand us
    
    10. Recognize and encourage our uniqueness
    
    11. Be sensitive to struggles of Single Parents (financial, exes, kids)
    
    
    I don't know what kind of study you are doing, but no matter how
    serious some humour tends to help, try to find something that pertains
    to the lesson that is humorous and have it ready.
    
    Of course you can always do what one of my teachers used to do, quote
    Luke 12:12 (out of context) For the Holy Ghost shall teach you in the
    same hour what you ought to say.  As the reason for not being
    prepared.  Actually he was prepared.  However, if you feel led to
    depart from your outline, or even the lesson, do it.
    
    There are lots of warnings in the Bible about teaching, be sure you are
    "Prayed Up" before you start and stick to scripture if in questionable
    areas.  BTW, there is nothing more rewarding, and no better way to
    learn yourself than to lead and teach.
    
    Have Fun,
    Sparky
    

>    One thing I should add about our chapter summary.  We discourage the
>    use of commenataries when preparing.  Not that they're all bad, but we
>    want to hear what the Lord has to speak to "me", not what he spoke to
>    someone else (the author of the commentary).

"'Do you understand what you are reading?' Philip asked. 'How can I,' he
said, 'unless someone explains it to me?'"  -- Acts 8:30f, the Ethiopian
eunuch, studying the Scriptures, to Philip

We should always encourage folks to seek the guidance of the Spirit in
understanding Scripture, and especially in making it relevant to our own lives
and situations, in convicting us of sin, in bringing new insights of symbolism
and allegory.

But if dealing with doctrinal interpretation, in my experience, trusting in an
individual, personal revelation of knowledge from God on the doctrinal meaning
of Scripture, without reference to what the community of faith believes as a
whole -- that is, "the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of
the truth" (1 Tim 3:15) -- has led many people, and congregations, into
spiritual deception and error.  If the Spirit is truly speaking to us, it will
be confirmed by unanimity in interpretation within the Body.  Otherwise,
lacking such unanimity, we cannot say that the Spirit is speaking to us.

Not every interpretation of Scripture is a right one; some can lead people 
into serious error. That's why I think it is good to always refer to the
understanding and interpretation the Body of Christ as a whole has had of
Scripture, and for this reason commentaries are quite useful.

The Holy Spirit works through the Body of Christ.  We are being risky when we
think the Spirit's word to us is more valid that His word to the community of
believers as a whole.  And even beyond understanding the doctrinal meaning of
Scripture, also when understanding it for life application, the insights of
other holy men and women are very profitable.  After all, what could it hurt?

Eric

    Eric,
    
    I was referring to our Bible study preparation in particular.  We do
    not encourage someone to develop and seek to share a doctrinal stance
    as part of the chapter summary.  It's just not the place for it.
    
    I believe commentaries have their place.  The best place for them is on
    the book shelf, IMHO. :-)  But I fear that too often, people take them
    from that place for a quick "fix" rather than take the time to study
    what I feel is the only reliable commentary on the Bible, contained in
    66 books that the Author completed about 2000 years ago.
    
    Mark L.

>    I was referring to our Bible study preparation in particular.  We do
>    not encourage someone to develop and seek to share a doctrinal stance
>    as part of the chapter summary.  It's just not the place for it.

Oh, ok.  I was speaking more in general.  I suppose it depends on the Bible
study, but I've always seen Bible studies as a kind of fundamental means for
learning Christian doctrine.
    
>    I believe commentaries have their place.  The best place for them is on
>    the book shelf, IMHO. :-)  But I fear that too often, people take them
>    from that place for a quick "fix" rather than take the time to study
>    what I feel is the only reliable commentary on the Bible, contained in
>    66 books that the Author completed about 2000 years ago.
    
I guess it depends on the commentary.  I'd look to a commentary to explain the
cultural differences between 1st Century Palestine and 20th Century America, to
explain fully the Semitic way of thought and the historical background it is
written in, to provide lots of cross references, to explain unfamiliar words,
and to make connections to other books of Scripture.  How can one "compare
Scripture to Scripture" before you've studied the whole of Scripture?  A
commentary can help you identify _which_ Scriptures to compare, and help you
navigate the Bible, which is a large and difficult book for the new believer.

A commentary does not detract from the glory of the Bible any more than a map
detracts from the glory of a city, but rather enhances its glory by making it
more accessible and clearer to the believer's eyes.

Seven years ago when I gave my life to Christ and received the Holy Spirit, I
approached the Bible with no other believer to help me, no commentary, no
lexicon, no notes, no Bible dictionary, nothing.  I stumbled for many years in
trying to understand it; I refused to believe and disagreed with what most
anyone else had to say.  I was very frequently tempted to doubt my faith
because of all the hard to reconcile apparent contradictions in Scripture.  I
won't go into the weird beliefs that I got out of approaching Scripture in this
way, but I wish that I had had something to guide me!

Eric

Personal interpretations of scripture are incredibly dangerous.  Consider
the following piece of mail I received yesterday:

	From: 	... "Luca SANSONETTI"  1-MAR-1994 12:42:20.83
	To:	covert::covert
	Subj:	 

	good morning man, I met this guy who told me that premarital sex
	is licit according to 1 cor. 7 verse 36 .....could please explain
	Luca

Well, of course, almost anyone can read 1 Cor 7:36 and see that it is clearly
not approving premarital sex.

Though extreme, this is a real example.

/john

> Personal interpretations of scripture are incredibly dangerous.  Consider
> the following piece of mail I received yesterday:

Oh, and another example is the increasing trend among even evangelical
Christians to interpret certain verses of Scripture different than we do in
order to justify a certain sexual behavior which until recently was universally
condemned.

I remember that in that same period of mine I mentioned earlier, I honestly
felt that premarital sex was not wrong, or more specifically I felt that the
Biblical model did not demand a formal marriage in a church with vows -- one
was married as Adam married, by having union with her.  (After all, there is no
requirement for a marriage ceremony or even vows in the Scriptures!) In this
case premarital sex is not really possible, because the act of sex constitutes
the marriage.  Of course in that case I would be obligated to have that woman
as my wife and support her for the rest of my life.  But since the Bible does
not condemn polygamy, that would not necessarily mean that I could not have sex
with several women and be married to them all.

Interestingly enough, I considered the verse concerning elders, "An elder
should be the husband of but one wife" to mean that an elder should have only
one wife, in contrast to the laity who could have several wives, as many
husbands did in the Old Testament.

Eric

Thanks for all the replies so far, they are valuable!

I am interested in knowing more about Bible interpretation.  Barry, could
you expound a little more about what you said:
>
>
>    B. Understand the type of literature you're dealing with.
>    
>       You would not interpret the Psalms in the same way you'd interpret
>       Leviticus. You would not interpret Acts in the same way you'd
>       interpret Romans. Understand what type of literature it is so that
>       you can "rightly divide" it. Some passages are didactic (i.e.
>       intended to convey doctrine), some are poetic, some are historical,
>       some include metaphore, hyperbole, etc.
>    

Wally

    A good follow-up, Wally. This point is one that many times results in
    bad interpretation. The idea is that the Bible is a library of
    different types of literature. All of the literature is God breathed,
    of course, but He used different vehicles for conveying His truth.
    
    If you think of a public library you realize that it contains novels,
    biographies, dictionaries, poems, etc. Knowing that, you would not
    read a novel the same way you'd read an encyclopedia; nor would you
    read an autobiography as you'd read poetry. Different literary types
    are used for different purposes.
    
    In the same way, God inspired the Bible to be written from different
    perspectives in different ways for different reasons. We read passages
    that are historical, we read about geography, we read biographies, etc.
    
    Throughout the Bible, there is narrative literature. This records
    events that happened, but it does not tell *why* they happened. Failure
    to recognize this may result in someone reading a "why" into a "what"
    with possibly nasty results.
    
    We also read parables. These usually compare spiritual things with
    natural things so that the spiritual can be better understood. If we
    don't properly interpret parables, though, we'll end up reading much
    more into it than is warranted. A parable is usually meant to convey a
    basic truth. It's not meant to be allegorical, i.e. match each entity
    in the parable with some corresponding spiritual entity.
    
    There is wisdom literature. This includes the Psalms, Proverbs, et al.
    This type of writing provides us with general rules of thumb from the
    human perspective that should be applied with wisdom. These passages
    aren't iron-clad guarantees, but rather are guidelines to help us live
    our lives.
    
    Finally (for now), there is the didactic literature. This is
    instruction, containing both wholesale doctrine as well as specifics
    relevant for the particular author/audience. Of course, we get most of
    our doctrine from this type (e.g. the epistles). Even at this, though,
    we must exercise some caution so as to know whether the instruction is
    meant for all of Christianity or if it was specific to the situation
    for which it was written.
    
    I would be happy to provide examples to help clarify these various
    types of literature if you like. The important thing to remember in
    interpretation is that they are there. When properly understood they
    combine to bring a richness to the Word that would be missing
    otherwise. The down side is that if we make the mistake of reading
    everything as if there were no different types, we will end up
    inventing all sorts of doctrines and developing unbiblical belief
    systems that may be hard to break.
    
    I hope this helps. If you care to discuss anything further please don't
    hesitate.
    
    	BD�

Re. -1

Barry,

I think I'll need your examples of interpretations regarding to different types
of literature in the Bible.  I have been thinking what exactly you mean by
categorizing the Bible into different types of literature and interpreting them
according to their types.  Obviously there are different types of literature in
the Bible but I have never thought of applying different interpretation rules to
them. I guess what I am trying to say is that since I am not familiar with the
interpretation rules, I have to apply the rules very mechanically to the
scripture. So, should I know the rules first? Or the rules will become obvious
when I understand more about the Bible?

Wally

    The best source I've found for understanding the different sorts of 
    literature and how to interpret them is an American one:
    
    	      * How to read the Bible for All its Worth *
    		G D Fee & D Stuart
    		Zondervan, Grand Rapids, Michigan, 1982, and
    		Scripture Union, London, UK, 1983.
    
    A good general reference on exegesis and hermeneutics.
    
    In Jesus' name,		Richard.

    I picked up the "New Treasury of Scripture Knowledge" this weekend. 
    This is probably one of the best Bible Study preparation helps around,
    but I was slightly disappointed in the notes.  When A.W. Torrey put the
    original together, it didn't have commentator notes in it.  The new
    version is about twice the size and more references and notes added. 
    In some areas it has a Baptist flavor, Presbyterian in others.  For
    example, one section notes in favor of adult baptism by immersion, another 
    states you don't have to wait to be an adult to be baptised - all
    within the same book.
    
    This happens in theological books, but if you are theologically
    sound, the references are awesome.  Take the notes with a grain of salt.
    
    Mike

    I add my recommendation to Mike's note. I've had the Treasury for a
    few years now, and I think it's an excellent resource. I've not
    had any problems with the notes. There are several other neat features
    besides: the prayers, topics, names, etc. The thing you're really
    buying it for, though, is obviously the thousands of cross references.
    
    	BD�

	Jamie and I want to spend one night a week in some sort
	of Bible Study.  The problem is that we don't know where
	to start.  Do we just obtain one of the reference books
	mentioned here, or should we pick up a specific study
	guide at the local Christian book store ?  (I've seen
	books that target one of the gospels at a time, for example).

	Suggestions ?

	Karen

    Karen,
    
    If you are a beginner at this, as I am, I would suggest
    picking up a good concorance, perhaps have 2 or 3 bible
    versions (we use NIV, KJV, Living bible and a korean NIV, and 
    Life Application bible) this way you can see the different 
    interpretations of different words and phrases.  We also
    pick up the specific study guides to kind of guide you 
    through and give you some questions that you may not have
    thought of.
    
    Others probably have other ideas. Hope this helps though.
    
    Pam

Pam, where can I get the korean NIV?

							Andrew

    I can get one for you at International Bible Society.  But 
    I'm not so sure you'll understand it 8*)  
    
    I sure don't!
    
    
    Pam

Thanks .... I'm sure I won't too.  Unless I have an interpretter.  I'd need 
a built-in-J....

							&

    Er, uh, not sure where to mention this... but
    
    Read Romans 8:1 in the NIV and then the same verse in KJV..
    
    notice anything?

    
    Oh sure - tell me to research something when I left my bible
    at home.  Real fair! 8*)
    
    So, like can you tell me anyway?
    
    Pam

    I only have the KJV text here... anybody else have the NIV?

�    Read Romans 8:1 in the NIV and then the same verse in KJV..
�    notice anything?

Missing phrase in the NIV.  It's why you need both.  The KJV gives you the
accuracy, while the NIV can clarify obscure passsages.  A good parallel,
and other references [Strongs, Vines, etc] can open it out even more. 

							Andrew 

    Can you post the NIV text Andrew?
    
    

Romans 8:1

NIV :
 "Therefore there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus"

KJV :
 "There is therefore no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus,
   who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit"

[ is the qualifying phrase a description or a condition?  I'm not sure 
  if it differentiates without consulting reference books.  However the
  instruction is contained, for instance, in Ephesians 5 (both versions)...]

							Andrew

    I'm not Andrew, nor do I play him on TV, however here's Romans 8:1 in
    the KJV and the NIV:
    
    KJV: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ
         Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to
         the Spirit.
    
    NIV: Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in
         Christ Jesus�
    
    �The NIV footnotes the verse to say "some later manuscripts:
    `Jesus, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to
    the Spirit'
    
    There are plenty of other places where there is a difference between
    what the KJV thinks was in the original versus what the NIV thinks was
    in the original. Although I'm not a big fan of the NIV (nor do I have
    any real problems with it), I must point out in fairness that one can't
    conclusively say that the NIV omits the phrases anymore than one can
    conclusively say that the KJV *added* the phrases. The science of textual
    criticism is what's used to come to a determination of what was likely
    the original writing.
    
    All this is of course a rathole to the request for beginners' study
    techniques.
    
    	BD�

Interesting.  I just checked seven different translations, and only the KJV
and Martin Luther's translation have the additional text.  Not even the
footnotes in the other versions indicate, as they usually would for a
disputed passage "some authorities add..."

I wonder where it came from.

/john

    Karen,
    
    I suggest that since you're new at Bible study that you try to get some
    sort of study guide to initially help you. Going directly to reference
    material may be a bit frustrating without some help along the way.
    There is a course called Precepts that might be good for you to look
    into. I think the person who made this technique popular is Kay Arthur.
    You might goto your local Christian bookstore and look for material
    under her name. Precepts has its own flavor, which I don't use but may
    be good for someone starting out.
    
    There are plenty of other study guides around. Perhaps you should pick
    a book of the Bible, say Romans or one of the gospels, and just buy a
    study guide written for that book. After you get further along then
    you'll want to start building a library so you have the tools to go as
    deep as you want without the need for guides to direct your path.
    
    Another option would be to select a topic (instead of a book) and get a
    study guide for that topic. John MacArthur has many study guides on a
    wide variety of topics. I'm sure you could find plenty of material
    under his name too.
    
    	BD�

 Dr. J. Vernon McGee has excellent book by book commentaries available.
 They were transcribed from his radio program "Through the Bible", and they
 are very easy to understand, friends (to quote the late Dr. McGee).




Jim

    I was going to recommend either Romans too or John.  I have a list of
    recommended commentaries in addition to the previous reference helps
    compiled by Pastor Chuck Smith and Pastor Steve Mays.  Only problem is
    that there are at least a half dozen for every book of the Bible (i.e.,
    list is several pages).
    
    My pastor told me on Sunday that he typically buys up just about every
    commentary he can find when getting reading to teach a book.  He has 60
    commentaries on Romans alone.  Unlike us, the church pays for this
    research, but you can see how deeply you can dive in.  Since I'm fairly
    new to this too, I like to study chapters myself first using the
    Observation, Interpretation, and Application guidelines (mentioned
    earlier in this topic) and then verify what I've determined with a
    respected commentator/theologian.
    
    I think I need to buy the Logos application since it has Strong's and
    TSK built-in.  I'm really impressed with the TSK!  One of my next major
    references will probably be a Greek/Hebrew Interlinear Bible.  
    
    Mike

>    KJV: There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ
>         Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to
>         the Spirit.
>    
>    NIV: Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in
>         Christ Jesus�
    
    NAS: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ
         Jesus.
    
    I've heard the phrase added by the KJV is not accurate based on NT
    manuscripts.  It was a margin note entered by a scribe at one time and
    someone decided to include it.  Very few manuscripts have this added
    phrase in the verse itself.
    
    In addition, I don't believe the phrase is right because it hints of no
    condemnation based on performance.  Only Jesus walked in the Spirit.
    
John 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him
that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but
is passed from death unto life.

    regards,
    Mike

    If you would prefer these references in an electronic format, look into
    the MS-Windows application known as "Logos."  They have just released a
    new CD-ROM version that includes the following:
    
    Bible Versions - NAS, NIV, RSV, KJV
    Commentaries   - Harper, Jerome, Bible Knowledge
    Lexicons       - BAGD, L&S, Kittel
    Treasury of Scripture Knowledge
    Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
    Greek morphological text
    2 Bible dictionaries
    Bible atlas
    Bible handbook with charts and illustrations
    
    MSRP is $595, but check with your church's pastor for a possible
    discount.  Calvary Chapel buys so many that I can get a major discount.
    
    Mike

    Let's remember that Karen is looking to learn how to study. Throwing a
    bunch of commentaries at her doesn't accomplish that. Pointing her to
    an interlinear or other "raw" resource materials doesn't accomplish
    that. I believe that the best way to learn how to study is to either be
    discipled by someone who knows how to study or you get a study guide
    and go through it yourself. The basic "observation, interpretation,
    application" sequence will be new to people - even those fundamentals
    are not addressed by simply reading a commentary/several versions/ or
    whatever.
    
    	BD�

	Thanks Barry, you're quite right.

	We've got several Bible translations and a Strong's Concordance,
	but need more guidance.

	Some dear friends from Church are having a home-study group
	in their house starting in January (actually, re-starting
	in January).  There are at least ten such groups through
	our church, but we're not sure we can find a sitter for
	so many consecutive weeks (we tried before and had problems).

	If we can find a good way to start at home, it would be
	nice (and I think at this point in time, sitting down alone
	together would be beneficial as well).

	Karen

    I've recently discovered a whole new use for Strong's Exhaustive
    Concordance, besides the obvious uses.  It is in the area of Bible
    Hermaneutics, specifically the law of first mention.  Due to this law
    of first mention, when something is referenced the first time in God's
    Word, most of the time it will continue to be referred in this manner.
    
    For example, the first mention of man's heart is in Genesis 6 and it is
    associated with evil.  
    
    Anyway, look in your Strong's for the term "loveth."  You'll see the
    first mention of a father's love for his only begotten son is in
    Genesis 22.  It is remarkable how the Holy Spirit sets the standard
    here for the Father's love for His only begotten Son.
    
    Mike

    Hi Mike,
    
    Imo, this "law" of first mention should be used - if at all - with
    extreme caution. Personally, I don't give it any weight. There are
    several concerns. One, as you mentioned, is that it's not really a law
    at all - there are plenty of exceptions. So right off the bat you still
    have to do proper study to tell if it's one of the exceptions or not.
    For another thing, recall that the order of the books doesn't match when
    they were written. Does the "law" apply to the earliest book according
    to when it was written, to the period of time that it refers (e.g.
    Genesis versus Job), or simply the position the book holds among the
    66? Of course, we must also consider the context of the particular
    mention. I haven't looked it up, but I suspect that the first instance
    of the word "light" in Genesis could lead you into many odd
    "interpretations" of verses that talk about Jesus/us being the light.
    
    I don't need to remind you, but proper hermeneutics includes the
    concentric circles of context. When considering a particular verse,
    what is its immediate context? What is the context of the book? What is
    the context of the historic era? What would it have meant to both its
    author and its initial audience? How are the terms used by the author
    in his other books? In the rest of Scripture in general?
    
    So the "law" of first mention may be a neat thing to consider, but I
    think the danger is that it will lead to eisegesis, i.e. looking for a
    meaning/application behind the first reference (however defined) that
    may have never been intended by the Author.
    
    	BD�

    Barry, I always thought Genesis was older than Job, do you agree?  When
    I read Genesis, I see a lot of precedents set by God that are revealed
    later in the NT.  While I agree with what you said, I don't think first
    mention is a bad thing applied to the oldest book of the Bible.

    Mike

Mike,
It's generally thought that Job lived around the time of Abraham (eg: he is 
another example of the family priesthood, as given by Melchisedec, as well 
as from literary clues).  If the book was written in the lifetime of a 
witness of the events, as seems likely, it would put its writing 
considerably before that of Genesis, as written by Moses.  The vintage is 
likely to be at least comparable.

While I'm not Barry (am I? - he wasn't me day or two ago ;-) I'll express 
my agreement that Genesis has a power of gospel foundation in it.  And 
there is significance in the first mention, say, of a particular 
attribute / name of God, etc, as His revelation opens to mankind.

Look at Hagar, recognising 'The God Who sees me!!!" in Genesis 16:13.  this
wasn't just like giving a name to a conference room; this was the thrill of
realising that the Holy, remote God of her master Abraham knew and cared
about her, Hagar, personally.  Enough to tell her so... 

Love them!

							Andrew 

    I've always considered Job to be the 2nd oldest, just don't ask me why ;-)
    
    Hagar is a neat picture.  It's funny how Hebrews wrote and thought so
    much in pictures.  The OT is full of them.  Strong's can be cumbersome
    sometimes with Hebrew for this reason.
    
    It is also interesting how God waited until Greece conquered the world
    before bringing Messiah into the world and having the NT written. 
    Greek is such a strong, strick, clearly-defined legal language.  Some
    of the Pauline epistles you can actually see the Holy Spirit using Paul
    as a defense lawyer making His case for justification by faith.  The
    English doesn't always do it justice.
    
    Mike

Hi Mike,

I think that modern culture has lost a lot of knowledge from its way of 
life, etc....  The Hebrew way of communicating was pretty powerful in 
a number of ways.  Those pictures speak to a depth that enlivens, where 
cold logic yawns.

�    It is also interesting how God waited until Greece conquered the world
�    before bringing Messiah into the world and having the NT written. 
�    Greek is such a strong, strick, clearly-defined legal language.  

Greece enriched its language with all the extra nuances of the nations they 
conquered, making a very precisely expressive language.  But - God still 
waited, until Rome had conquered Greece, and built roads across the empire 
to take the gospel along.  Still, of course, keeping the Greek language.

� Some of the Pauline epistles you can actually see the Holy Spirit using
� Paul as a defense lawyer making His case for justification by faith.  
� The English doesn't always do it justice. 

Sounds like a good candidate for inclusion here, Mike!


	"But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son..."
							Galatians 4:4	

	"From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit 
	 the whole earth; and He determined the times set for them and the 
	 exact places where they should live."
							Acts 17:26

	"You see, at just the right time, while we were still powerless, 
	 Christ did for the ungodly..."
							Romans 5:6

	"Christ Jesus, Who gave Himself as a ransom for all men - the 
	 testimony given in its proper time."
							1 Timothy 2:5b-6

	"You say 'I choose the appointed time; it is I Who judge uprightly'"
							Psalm 75:2


...and so many more...

						God bless
								Andrew