Conference yukon::christian_v7

 I don't know a lot about it, but I do know its not something in which
 I personally would want to become involved.  I believe that it is a
 repackaged EST and does involve New Age thinking.





Jim

    I saw something on this a while ago on Larry King on CNN; the founder
    of EST is back with The Forum. It is indeed something packaged for
    coroprate training and it is 'self-motivational' training which also
    deals with how to motivate groups and create common goals. 
    
    If I recall correctly, the founder sold EST when he left the country
    many years ago over IRS struggles. The Forum is supposed to be 
    something separate, but who is to say. Considering the New Age
    background of the founder, I would be very wary of it myself.
    
    /Mary

 And there is a running battle between the founder of EST (Erhard?) and 
 the leader of the Church (sic) of Scientology.




 Jim

Avoid The Forum like the plague.  It is a repackaged version of "est". 
Complete New Age junk ... avoid it!

Eric

See note 283.

I have hardcopy documentation on EST, and will mail it to anyone that wants it.

Let me know.

    I would be interested in seeing this documentation.
    
    Kent
    

    Thanks for all of your replies.
    
    I thought it was based on New Age philosophy.
    At the constant encouragement of a friend, I attended an introductory
    meeting. It was congenial and all. After an explanation of the Forum,
    others went into small groups and signed up and started a homework
    assignment. I was surprised how quickly people just signed up and were so
    eager to do so. Either they were previously convinced to sign up, or
    they were just eager to see positive change in their lives that they
    were willing to grab on to any doctrine no matter how potentially
    damaging. (Without the Holy Spirit, I too would be tossed to & fro.) 
    But before signing... I wanted to try an excerise to
    understand their philosophy (I had started to pray for insight into this
    organization --which my friends in my department said was so great and
    life changing. Admittedly, the excercise was interesting and very
    challenging. It made me really think about some of my actions and goals. It
    was truly motivating to me... however, as I suspected, the basis of the
    motivation is to take action ourselves. As a Christian, I know the Lord
    may have other plans. For example, He may not agree with blocking out 
    the past without His directives and Healing hand...
    
    So as I resisted signing up, the more interested the 2 leaders were
    wanted to see why I resisted. Each came by to see if they could be of a
    help --which they were. But it seemed that they wanted a 100% sign up.
    I'm sure they meant well, because they really were excited about the
    program, but it turned to a 3 on 1 for a bit and the peer pressure
    became obvious. (I wonder if unbelievers feel the similar pressure when
    we witness to them --and I wonder why they back off.)
    
    Anyways, they are thorough, and followed through with a call. A pity we
    Christians weren't more like that. They wanted to help others in what
    they learned. I kept wondering why they felt compelled to charge people
    and not share much of the course until a person was signed up and paid.
    I thought to myself that the Lord doesn't charge for His Word and
    instruction. And many of His people give their time and resources freely, 
    and so did my Savior.
    
    "Freely, Freely I give onto you..."
    
    Thanks for the input. I know who I plan to stay loyal to.
                                    

    I know somebody who went through the Forum - and she is a *wonderfull*
    person. She credits alot of who she is today to what she learned in the
    Forum. I've been invited to the introductory meetings but my heart has
    told me to stay away. I was fairly young when EST was all the rage and
    so I don't really have any prior knowledge of what that is all about.
    
    So my questions are...
    
    What about the Forum makes it "New Age"?
    
    I've heard that it is just a self improvement course - do you consider
    all self improvement courses that aren't Bible based to be New Age?
    
    I would just like to add a little more knowledge to what the Lord has 
    already put in my heart.
    
    Thx! 

I'll let others speak specifically about the Forum.

I want to point out that self-improvement is not New Age nor Christian.
In fact, it is not the self-improvement aspect of the course (or anything)
that bothers anyone.  What does bother people is to what self-improvement is
attributed.  

The most dangerous lies are the ones with the elements of the truth in them.
We do have power over ourselves to alter our moods and emotions.  The body
is equipped wonderfully to fend off infection and other things.  So where
does one cross the line?  When I give God the glory for making me who I am
with abilities and such?  Or when I glorify myself for what I can do?

Shades of gray!  We Christians believe that God is within us.  We say
that He lives in our hearts.  New Agers say also that God is within us,
and in everything, and that in essence we are all a part of god (not
the reverse).  So what is the difference?  Largely, it is focus and
definition.  Focus on the instrument instead of the Artist.  Definition
or redefinition of who or what God is - impersonal force versus personal
force.

We say that God is Omni-present; they say that God is everywhere and in
everything?  The difference, we say God is a distinct person separate from
His creation, yet personally involved in it.  They say God is the essence
of creation and the essence of creation is God, and we are part of God.

You can see what a short trip it is to heresy and how many may be fooled 
by the confusion, especially when many of the same terms are used to mean
other things.

Mark

>do you consider
>    all self improvement courses that aren't Bible based to be New Age?

There's a fundamental question to ask about the program - who/what is
effecting the change?

For example, AA and other 12-step programs come from this perspective:
(actually, these are a couple of the 12 steps)  I can't change myself.  I
have tried, and I recognize that I cannot do it.  I must call upon a 'higher
power' within me - something which is not me but which can work through me -
to effect the change.  This differs from the Christian model of change only
in that we name the 'higher power' - we know that refers to Christ.  I know
many people who came to know of the existence of a higher power through AA,
and later learned that the power's name is Jesus.

Various New Age self-help programs are just that: SELF-help.  They focus on
"YOU can do it."  Their basic orientation is that you need no help, you and
you alone can effect the change you desire in your life.  If they speak in
religious terms at all, they are likely to assert that you are God, or speak
of the "god within."  This "god within" is not the transforming power of the
Holy Spirit, who gets hold of us, but a sort of "god power." that we can get
hold of and use.  This view is not compatible with Christianity.

That's the fundamental difference.  If the focus of the program is on laying
hold, in some fashion, of a "power" within that you can wield to change your
life, then I'd stay away from it.  If the program seeks to ask God to change
you, then it bears further examination.  At that point, of course, you need
to make sure that it's God you're asking to change you and not some other
spirit.

Paul

Hmmm.  You know, Mark, I didn't get a chance to read your response before I
created mine.  I entered mine, and saw that there was a new note between the
one I was responding to and the one I entered.  And I read it to find that
yours says nearly the exact same thing as mine.

You'd think that we follow the same Lord, or something.

:-)  :-)

Paul

Yes, Paul!  And if I may piggy back on your reply - something caught my eye
about wielding power.

I think even many Christians today have misunderstood the power of God
as something to be wielded by us... for our purposes.  I mean we pray
for people and certainly for good things to happen (as we understand
them to be good) and when they don't happen, we feel we did not pray hard
enough to call God's power, or if they do happen, we feel that we have
used the power of God.

We misunderstand the power of God and its purpose; indeed the purpose of 
existence, which is to glorify God.  The truth is that God sometimes displays
his power through his servants, but His servants always give God the
credit.  Peter eschewed the credit whenever someone said "he healed me."
"Not I, but Christ!"  

We talk about the gifts God gives us, each a different talent, and yet 
we more often think of it as something we have developed within us and
rarely think of God setting the stage in our DNA structure and environment,
or even more purposefully placing us in circumstances where our talents
will be used - for what? - for His glory.  We exercise the power of God
with our talents and how have we given Him the credit?

The power of God is not merely in pyrotechnics and wonders beyond the wonders
of everyday wonders.  It is not merely in parting the sea, feeding the
multitude, or healing the sick and lame, though these expressions through
some of His servants are all for one purpose: God's glory.

When we as Christians take it so lightly, it puts us to shame.  When the world
attributes powers to themselves or some "other" god, then God is given
short-shrift, but "be not deceived; God is not mocked."

When our prayers go unanswered, perhaps we need to examine our prayers in 
light of God's glory and perfect will and cut Him some slack to trust Him
to know what He's doing.  He doesn't wring his hands with worry about the
outcome of this or that.  He is not ann emaciated, whining, begging God.
But He is love and He knows the end already, and has us in the palm of His
hand and will bring glory to Himself through His servants, or in spite of
them.

Mark