Conference yukon::christian_v7

    When Pastor was teaching this lesson, it brought me tears as he spoke
    my heart from the pulpit.  I never had an affair on my husband, but the
    description he used to speak a woman's strongest need was near verbatim
    the words I'd said to my now ex-husband over and over again.
    
    And you know what, the miracle was that he was in church and heard them
    from someone else...:-)
    
    My Pastor said that men don't give women enough credit.  That most
    women desire INTIMACY {not sex} above and beyond any material
    provision.  So many times when my husband would stay out and not
    come home until the wee hours of the morning [he was drinking], I'd
    find myself longing for someone to talk to, to laugh with, to share the
    burdens of my day with... 
    
    The next day I'd tell him, "Rafael I miss you, I want you to be with
    me."  And he'd get very angry and ask me why I wasn't satisfied with my
    home, my beautiful garden and food in the refridgerator.
    
    Then I'd respond,"I'd rather live in a tent with you, then to have all
    these things without you."
    
    Why do women have affairs... the need for intimacy, someone to share
    our hearts with and be received by that person.
    
    Like I said, I never had an affair, but I was sure a good candidate for
    one.
    
    

    
>    5.	An affair indicates that the person's mate is not an adequate
>   husband or wife.  
    
>    Note:  An affair can point to a problem in the marriage, but it doesn't
>    mean the entire marriage is bad.  Generally an affair manifests some
>    hidden personality trait in that person.
 
    Pastor spoke about abused women here.  He said it is staggering the
    number of men and women caught in an affair come from sexually abused
    childhoods.
    
    While I know t��his is true, it is very hard for me to relate to sexual
    problems as a result of abuse.  Although my father molested me from a
    young age, I've never had sexual inhibitions.
    
    However, I did become very promiscuous looking for intimacy in sex for
    a short period of time [thank goodness before the run on STDs].  
    
    In many of our churches today, we are not addressing the problems of a
    rebellious society where sexual promiscuity was the norm.  This if it
    feels good generation stepped over boundaries that created an epidemic
    of sexual immorality in the home with their children.
    
    This dysfunction no longer is identified with the uneducated or lower
    income society alone, it now runs rampant through all classes of
    humanity.  And the church today must step up the pace and begin to deal
    with these issues.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy   	

      Hi Nancy,
    
        My wife and I got a nice video series called 'Keys for
        Succesful Relationships' (or something like that).  Its
        by a guy named Gary Smalley.
    
        Anyway, we watched the first tape and the guy went over
        differences between men and women and his key message for
        the first tape which is to _honor your partner_.
    
        I thought that was pretty good.  We don't honor a whole lot
        these days...anything that's honored is valued.  I've been
        asking God to help me honor others more - to value them as God
        does.  And if we did, we'd want to spend good valuable time with
        our spouses.
    
        I don't know if this series is Christian or not, but what I
        have seen so far doesn't contradict what I believe.
    
        Very nice topic Nancy.  If our Christianity can't relate to
        personal experiences...if the rubber doesn't hit the road...
        what good is it?
    
                                                  God Bless,
    
                                                  Tony

    Tony/Nancy,
    
    I can vouch for the Gary Smalley series.  We watched the series in our
    Wednesday night services.  Excellent stuff.  Yes, Gary Smalley is a
    Christian and has authored and co-authored a number of books on
    relationships, including spousal and parent/child.  Don't know what
    book stores you have available but you can find them in Christian Book
    Distributors.
    
    God's Blessings Upon Both of You,
    
    Kent
    

    HI KENT!
    
    Since you're a newcomer into NOTES [BTW, great to have you here], I
    just thought I'd tell you, I'm divorced.  My ex-husband wasn't saved
    and alcoholic for the entire marriage [albeit a professional alcoholic,
    not a bum].  He recently made a commitment of faith to the Lord check
    out topic #165.351.
    
    He has been attending church with me the past month and I'm very
    encouraged at this... prayers still needed.
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    I will be in prayer for you and your husband.  I believe that God is a
    God of reconciliation; not just man to God but also man to man.  It's
    great to hear that he has come to the Lord, a threefold cord is not
    easily broken.  With your permission, I will pray for healing as well. 
    There are often emotional and spiritual wounds which need the Holy
    Spirit's care.
    
    In His Love,
    
    Kent
    

>        My wife and I got a nice video series called 'Keys for
>        Succesful Relationships' (or something like that).  Its
>        by a guy named Gary Smalley.
    
    Tony, Gary's stuff is great.  He's also here in Phoenix.
    
    Mike

    The 'Dennis Rainey' bunch as one of my pastors called them (Campus
    Crusades puts on a family life conference in most cities once a year.
    
    I had occasion to hear Smalley at one, and he is great, as were all the
    other speakers I've heard.
    
    I am a Church coordinator and have the schedules for seminars all over
    the US, if you want I can post them.
    
    The main point stressed in this seminar is the difference between men
    and woman, why it is good, how to communicate your needs and meet your
    mates using Godly principles.  One of the exercises has you go through
    a routine to decide your 5 most important needs.  Then (this is the
    important part) you write them down on a card and give it to your
    spouse and they put it somewhere they see it often.  My wifes is in my
    billfold so when I open it to show my license for checks I see it, and
    are reminded constantly what she needs.  We can be told, and at the
    time remember, but this daily reminder is a very powerful tool.
    
    I guess I have never really gave any history of my past, and rather
    than do it here I will post it in the who are you as a suppliment.
    
    Sparky who_will_explain_why_he_goes_by_sparky_rather_than_glenn

    I apologize for dual threading notes, this is rather a reply to the
    introduction suppliment I added where I stated
    
 <   We got married July 5 1985, and have really had a wonderful marriage.
 <   It is wonderful when the marriage is based on friendship and
 <   communication and Godly principles rather than physical attraction.  We
 <   decided to get married after not seeing each other for 10 years.
    
    After reading this, I didn't mean to imply that physical attractivness
    is not important.  In fact in the card my wife carries that states my 5
    needs, an attractive wife is number 3, right after sex, and
    recreational companionship.
    
    Speaking of recreational companionship my wife got her ham radio
    license last year so we could work public events together, and talk
    while we are commuting.  Before the conference stressed how important
    this was, she had claimed she would never get her license, of course
    dropping the morse code requirement may have helped.
    
    Thanks for posting this, we need the reminder to always be on guard
    against this.  I almost had a fit when I started reading it, I missed 
    the word Myths.
    
    Sparky 

    .9
    
    Yes it is important... but not by the standard set in commercials on TV
    or movies though. :-)
    
    > Thanks for posting this, we need the reminder to always be on guard
    > against this.  I almost had a fit when I started reading it, I
    > missed the word Myths.
    
    :-) :-)  I wondered how many folks might not CATCH that.                                                                        
    

>    Yes it is important... but not by the standard set in commercials on TV
>    or movies though. :-)

    I didn't see the myths at first either, and couldn't believe that the
    pastor was saying such things...
    
    :-)
    
    makes a big difference (I went back and read it realizing it was
    listing myths, and could understand it better...)

See also notes 392.8, and 392.26 through 392.30  "Guarding your soul"
which discuss how lust and pornography can lead to infidelity.

Can lead?  Let me be more plain - lusting is infidelity according to 
Jesus' own words.

Mark

    Hi,

    having been involved in adultery too many times (hey! once is 'too
    many'), let me get something straight!

    Nancy (and I guess her Pastor) used the word 'affair'. Now, I dunno
    about you, but the connotations of 'affair' are about 'fun' and
    'frivolity' and 'being young and free' - almost like the 'fairs' that
    you sometimes see on the old movies ;')

    It is not 'an affair'. It's not now, and never was.

    Let's call the thing what it really is.

    Adultery.

    It's not just playing 'semantics'. It is using the correct word.

    Many of us don't like the word (another 'doozie') "backslider". How
    many of us here have been 'backsliders'?

    *** Action: Harry puts his hand up

    But it's not a word we're comfortable with.

    Neither is 'Adultery'. It sounds so much nicer when we use 'Affair'.

    I would like to 'take to task' the broad generalisations - re: women
    get involved for intimacy, men for lust. Yes, I admit 'lust', but also
    'intimacy' is what I sought.

    Before I go any further, let me state - 3 times I have committed
    adultery against my wife. Once with my ex-wife [how's that for
    'weird'?], once with someone I should have known better to 'stay away
    from', and once "only" in my heart. To me, the last was 'the worst' in
    the sense that it was the most 'intimate'.

    It's not a 'secret' that I am an adulterer. It's not something I am
    proud of - and I dare say that there are some here who will 'write me
    off' from now on - sorry.

    But let us not get into any 'fairy-tale' of this being a 'swwet and
    innocent affair'.
    
    Adultery is the word. Jesus called it that. 'If a man looks at a woman
    with lust in his heart, he has committed adultery with her already' (my
    memory version). I have done this.

    I have also sought, and I believe, received forgiveness for this from
    Jesus.

    The broken trust between me and Karen, though, is still being worked on
    :'( It's broken, and sometimes, I wonder if it will ever be healed.

    More later,

		Harry

Nancy,

re: 414.2

>    A very close friend of mine whom I care about deeply has become
>    involved with a married woman.  He claims that she was unhappy with the
>    .
>    .
>    .
>    
>    The situation is more complicated in that my friend decided to confess
>    his feelings and break off the relationship with this woman in order to
>    remain pure and not be the cause of a break up.  I have no idea what
>    the letter said, but I'd imagine it was quite a love letter full of the
>    passion that comes from within each of us.  Its the sort of thing that
>    movies are made about.

    My two cents worth here... there are two ways to write this sort of
    letter. One is "Dear x, this is not right. I must not see you again.
    Sorry. Goodbye, y." The other is "My Dearest x, with all my heart I
    adore you, but I know that we are not destined to be with each other as
    you have already been betrothed to someone who is not right for you...
    etc.... I will love you with my whole heart until the day I die, y."

    Which is going to 'hook the fish'? Ok, I'm being cynical, and
    consciously your friend didn't write the second type of letter to
    'hook' his 'fish'. But sub-consciously he loaded the bait onto the
    hook. He *wanted* (wants!!!) her.

    I have been as obsessed as this man! And not all that long ago, either!

    By declaring his love for her in such a strong manner, he has forced her
    to make a choice.

    (Believe me, I am preaching right at me in this.)
>    
>    Having done this the woman confessed to her husband the situation and
>    explained she feels the same things in return.  And so the marriage
>    has the possibility of terminating.

    The choice. If she feels that her marriage to her husband is to 'the
    wrong man', then there is precious little that can be done to save the
    marriage. Yes, I'm being overly sceptical. But if she is not willing to
    see that she has made a *serious* error, and seek forgiveness from her
    husband, then that is the end of the marriage.
    
>    
>    If this marriage ends in divorce, would it be the right thing for my
>    friend to marry her?
>

    Why would it be wrong?

    OK, he has 'forced' her into the decision of divorce. Although, if she
    is 'unhappy', then maybe any excuse in a storm? But, after all the dust
    has settled, why should she feel any more secure with husband #2?

    There will be guilt all around about the failure of the first marriage
    - I *know* - I deal with it constantly! There will also be that uneasy
    feeling in the back of their minds that '(s)he's done it once, what
    if...' I deal with this one constantly, too.

    Let's face it, it puts an *aweful* big strain on the subsequent
    marriage!

    CAN YOU HEAR WHAT I'M SAYING!!???

    And there's always the 'I've done it before, will I (can I) do it
    again?'

    My advice? It's free, and worth every cent.

    1 - She shouldn't divorce her husband.

    2 - He stay well and truely away.

    3 - If she were to divorce, they should both think long and hard before
    marrying

    Harry

    

 re 414.2



 No.




 Jim

    Nancy,
    
    I agree with much of what Harry says.  I think it would definitely
    be wrong for the couple to get married.  I don't know the
    reference but the Bible clearly states that if a person divorces
    in order to marry another (which is exactly what is being contemplated)
    it is wrong.  No two ways about it.
    
    Will be praying for this situation,
    
    Pam

414.2 � The situation is more complicated in that my friend decided to confess
414.2 � his feelings and break off the relationship with this woman in order to
414.2 � remain pure and not be the cause of a break up.  

414.2 � Having done this the woman confessed to her husband the situation and
414.2 � explained she feels the same things in return.  And so the marriage
414.2 � has the possibility of terminating.  

414.2 � If this marriage ends in divorce, would it be the right thing for my
414.2 � friend to marry her?

From the above, the 'confession' and 'breaking off the relationship' must have
been rather ambivalent.  It apparently led to the woman's rejection of her
husband, rather than her contrition or reunion with him.  Perhaps I'm reading
more into this than is warrented, but he jumps from the apparently platonic
'mentor' stage to having to 'confess' rather abruptly.  To recognise that the
dependency is inappropriate, and terminate it would not imply confession.  To
say any more than that in stepping out of the relationship, is to put
unnecessary and inappropriate suggestions into the woman's mind.  She has
responded to this in kind, by putting further pressure on her husband's side
of the relationship. 

This gives the impression of two people progressing determinedly towards a
(possibly almost subconcious) common goal, while endeavouring to present as
innocent an appearence behaviourally as possible.  They have lost some
opportunities of exercising self control, and listening to the LORD.  It is
very unlikely that they would see their position so clearly now as to draw
back.  If they are truly the LORD's, there is likely to be some uncomfortable
work to be done in drawing them back to His throne.  If they are not strong
enough to listen and turn now (which few of us would be), they are likely to
be each other's implememnt in His hands for refinement. 

It is one of the mopst basic rules of counselling, not to counsel the opposite
sex, especially one-to-one (possible where, say, the counsellor's spouse is
present).  The situation is far too liable to result temptation on one side or
the other, or at least an ambivalent appearence, which compromises the
ministry and the representation of the LORD.  To step into private consolation
of an unhappy spouse is inviting attack. 

I fear that your friend has acted very unwisely, which has led to them both 
being trapped in a very dangerous situation. 

The best thing for them at this stage is still to concentrate on building up
the woman's marriage.  This almost certainly means that the man cuts off all
communication - even if it means changing his church, job and town. 

For someone to decide that they have 'married the wrong person' isn't an
option.  They have made their choice and promise before God, and committed to
being the best spouse they can be for this individual.  To throw away the
commitment is denying their own validity as spouse, as much as that of the
person they are rejecting.  No-one else should be under consideration under
such circumstances, or else they generally merely carry over the personal
problems dumped by the failed marriage. 


								Andrew 

>It is one of the mopst basic rules of counselling, not to counsel the opposite
>sex, especially one-to-one (possible where, say, the counsellor's spouse is
>present).  The situation is far too liable to result temptation on one side or
>the other, or at least an ambivalent appearence, which compromises the
>ministry and the representation of the LORD.  To step into private consolation
>of an unhappy spouse is inviting attack. 


 A M E N!!!

    
    I'd just be repeating most other things, so we'll keep it to:
    
    			Amen!  

 How does God feel about divorce and what does God say about a man/woman
 who marries a divorced woman/man?






 Jim

    What does God's word say are the acceptable reasons for divorce?
    
    1. adultery [actual physical relationship]
    2. unbeliever leaves
    
    I don't see either fitting in this case.  Therefore, for her to remarry
    would mean living in adultery for the rest of her days.  We live in a
    day where moral relativity has permeated our country including our
    churches.  I have fallen prey to this mentality far too many times and
    each time it ends up in painful agony.  Oftimes the reaping of our
    choices comes years later, we don't see them right away.
    
    Let's say this person tosses the Bible out and says its not clear on
    divorce/remarriage issues.  And marries this individual.  There is no
    doubt in my mind that happiness will occur for a while.  But what
    happens when that 7 year hurtle comes in their marriage?  You see most
    marriages go through a cycle.  Oftimes marriages will develop bumps in
    the road around the 7-8 year timeframe.  Most likely because they have
    learned each other's weaknesses and have become disillusioned about
    their mate.  This situation is waiting for another illusion.  
    
    As Andrew's note so intimately explained behaviors, the unhappy mate is
    extremely vulnerable to caring from another person, especially a person
    of the opposite sex.
    
    The question you pose is what if the wife is not willing to divorce,
    but the husband goes ahead.  The question I would ask up front would be
    was the husband approached?  Was it, "Honey, I love you and am
    committed to our vow, but I have to confess that I've found myself
    feeling things for someone else.  I think this is an indication that we
    need to wake up to our issues and work through them before these
    feelings go too far.  And BTW, I've broken off ALL communication and
    future appointments where this person would be there also."
    
    or
    
    "Honey, I've got to confess that I've fallen in love with someone else. 
    I don't want a divorce, but I just think you should know my feelings."
    
    One is an attempt at reconciliation, the other is an attempt at
    provoking the spouse to action.
    
    My other suggestion would be for the couple to go to their Pastor for
    counsel.  
    
    As a man, you know and I know the most horrible blow is to have your
    wife say you're aren't man enough to keep me.  His reaction to leave
    her is understandable if the above is true.  His pride won't allow
    failure, so she must be at fault for him to move on and keep his
    "face".
    
    He needs his wife to build him up, not tear him down.

	I guess marrying for love is out of the question.......

    Marrying for love is not out of the question Glen.  Marrying someone
    elses husband/wife is.
    
    Nancy

 re .25


 God says He hates divorce.  Yes, divorce happens.  I'm divorced.  I was 
 involved in adultery.  It happened.  I didn't plan it, I didn't try to find
 loopholes in God's word to validate it.  I *hate* the fact that I became 
 involved with someone else.  I hate the fact that my family was destroyed.
 Was there love in my marriage..it seemed to have waned, but that was no
 excuse for what I did.

 Has God forgiven me?  Yes, I know He has.   Does that mean that one should
 go ahead and sin because God will forgive them?  Absolutely not.  Got *hates*
 divorce.




 Jim

    God doesn't make mistakes.  If He brought a man and woman together, it
    won't be His will to bring another in your life with the exception
    already in His Word.
    
    Mike

    Mike I'm confused about the latter part of your sentence regarding
    exception.
    
    

    Bob,
    
    If you saw a friend ready to leap off the Golden Gate Bridge, knowing
    full well that he'd die in the water [as recorded in history that none
    has survived this feat] would you say, "Go with God!" as he jumped?
    
    When a friend that you love is involved in something that is perilous
    to not only themselves but to others, as is this situation, one must
    make a hard decision to either tolerate the friend's bad decisions or
    to put the friendship on the line and look at what is written in
    the Bible and try to show the friend the error of his ways.
    
    To say that God will make even a bad situation turn towards good, is no
    excuse to willfully sin.  People make blind mistakes, but when one
    opens their eyes, knows what is right and wrong, and proceeds the
    reaping of that harvest is sore.  Sore to not only the person in
    rebellion, but also to those who love them.
    
    It may seem unloving to you...but the motivation comes from love.
    
    Nancy

    	Sometimes the best and most worthy teaching is from one who
    	has experienced the pitfall.
    
    	I think we all know reasonable exceptions to this generalization,
    	so I don't see the need for me to spell any out.

    BobP,

    my Brother. [deleted - thanks Andrew]

>    What I am amazed at is the insensitivity of people who are confessing
>    adultery and divorce and other lewd and lascivious acts and thoughts
>    and uncontrolled, unbridled passions quickly standing up and
>    proclaiming the LAW. 

    As one of these 'self-confessed' sinners... I did not procalim 'LAW'.
    However, I have *been* there. I *know* most painfully what this man is
    going through, and what he is doing to himself, to this woman, and to
    her husband.

    It is wrong.

    If I see someone about to pick up a live power cable with bare wires
    exposed, do I stand by? No! *Especially* as I have _had_ an
    'experience' with electricity. It nearly killed me! Am I to stand by
    and let someone kill themselves? No!

    If I am seeing someone in this situation, and the more I think about
    it, the more I think he almost 'urged' the woman to speak about divorce
    with her husband, this is *wrong*.

    If this man continues to pursue this woman, there will be Sin. The Sin
    of Adultery. The Sin of Divorce. And, man oh man. There will be guilt.
    It will be piled _so_ high on their heads that it will cause untold
    stresses on any further relationship between them.

    If this happens, I would see a limited lifetime for their relationship
    - whether they married each other or not.

    Heck! My marriage is going through enough troubles now, because of a
    'similar' (involving Infidelity, Adultery, Divorce and Backsliding -
    all on my part) past.

    I know the road that they will be travelling, I know it intimately.

    Turn back now - before it is too late, turn back now.

    Man, whoever you are - repent. Cut off all communication with this
    married woman, Leave the state if you must.

    Woman - cleave to you husband. Beg his forgiveness. *work* at your
    marriage. You will only get _out_ of the marriage what you put in.

    Husband - forgive your wife. Love her. Cherish her. Honour her. Treat
    her as Jesus treats His Bride.

>    Do I say that we should Sin.? No. But where there is Sin, there is a
>    greater abundance of Grace.  This grace takes even that which is sin
>    and uses it for God Great Purpose.

    Yes, sin _can_, and has been, and is being used by God to demonstrate
    His Grace. But tell me, is there not a better way?

    Tell me. Is not the "Way of Obediance" a better way? Jesus said "If you
    Love me, you will obey My commandments." Now, I hold Jesus as God, as
    do many here. So, in my book, it is _He_ who said 'thou shalt not
    commit adultery'. It is _He_ who said 'the two shall become one flesh'.
    It is _He_ who said these things, and more.

    I cannot say how God will judge these people. I can only speak from
    painful personal experience.

    They will hurt. They will know guilt. They will live the rest of their
    lives with the thought that perhaps they should have done something
    different. I know.

    Bob, I think I know your heart. I have known you long enough, I have
    read enough of your writings over the years. My Brother, I disagree
    with you this time.

    For this man and this woman to destroy one marriage for *selfish*
    reasons, and form another, is Sin.

    Having said that.

    They may well be as pig-headed as I was (?am?), and continue in this
    way. If they do, and they get married, I pray every Blessing from God
    upon them. They are going to need an 'extra' dollop of Grace, because
    their consciences will not always be so seared.

    If this happens, I believe that they will Backslide. I pray only for a
    season, as their guilt will force them to hide from God, as Adam and
    Eve hid in the Garden. I pray,though, that their season of 'darkeness'
    will be short, and that the Holy Spirit will continue to work in their
    hearts, and draw them *together* back to the Father.

    Once the sin has been committed, the (current) marriage broken, there
    is naught else to do but continue.

    God will not condemn them outright. His Grace can (and if they ask,
    will) cover this sin.

    It is better for them not to sin in the first place.

    In a short sentence - Divorce, if it can possibly be avoided, is not
    worth the pain caused. In this case, I think it can (and should be) be
    avoided.

    
>    What I am amazed at is the insensitivity of people who are confessing
>    adultery and divorce and other lewd and lascivious acts and thoughts
>    and uncontrolled, unbridled passions quickly standing up and
>    proclaiming the LAW. 
 

     I wish to merely state, that a very short season of "fun and pleasure"
     turned into a lengthy season of pain, regret, guilt and misery that has
     lasted 6.5 years, and will likely be with me the rest of my life on earth.
     "be sure, your sin will find you out".  



     Jim




   

James 1:12  Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is 
tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to 
them that love him. 

 13  Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot 
be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 

 14  But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and 
enticed. 

 15  Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it 
is finished, bringeth forth death. 

 16  Do not err, my beloved brethren. 




 

    re .38
    
    Amen!

.29� What I am amazed at is the insensitivity of people who are confessing
.29� adultery and divorce and other lewd and lascivious acts and thoughts
.29� and uncontrolled, unbridled passions quickly standing up and
.29� proclaiming the LAW. 

Hi Bob,

I went along with about all of .29, which draws out a basic principle of 
God's working with us, but I felt that the above paragraph missed it with 
both the input of previous noters, and on the law.

While the previous noters can (and do!) answer for themselves, I feel it is
only fair to stress that they are not using the law to condemn or belabour
the subject of the note, but to say that their experiences outside the law
have proved grievious, and they would urge him not to learn that hard path
that they have trod.  They are not encouraging or boasting about the acts
of the past. They are personally ashamed of them, and it is because of
their experience that they long to see others escape that same trouble to
their soul. 


Then on the law...  A fascinating topic, which really deserves a note to 
itself.

The law is God's righteous standard.  That mankind cannot attain its
standard, served to teach peoples hearts that we need the salvation God
supplies; the blood of Jesus applied to our lives to grant us
righteousness.  In this respect, 'law' was the schoolmaster or guide of
Galatians 3:24 (the word used was that of the slave whose duty was to take
the child to school, and ensure that he was properly supervised at all
times).  The law in itself is not bad; it is just that we are unable to use
that route to righteousness.  Hebrews 10:1 says that the law is a shadow of
the good things to come - it is an outline of God's perfect standard for us
here.  We cannot perfectly attain it, and are not under obligation to live
in it precisely - we cannot, even yet - but as we learn to live according
to God's design, we find that we fit better and better to the law, which
becomes no longer a rigid, uncomfortable straightjacket, but a glorious
revelation of God, and the fulfillment of our desire, leading us to Him. 

The Psalmist who wrote Psalm 119 had learned this.  The whole psalm centres
on his delight in he law of the LORD.  Not because he was a legalist (they
tend to be uncomfortable people, because they too easily focus on other
people's lack of conformity to 'their' standards), but because it was in 
his heart, as an expression of our glorious God.

Now, combining the two, some in this note string have said "I found the 
preciousness of this part of the law, when I left it and found that it was 
really vital to my wellbeing.  Let me commend it to you, that you may not 
lose a measure of your peace in the LORD for a season, as I did."

Now in .36, you also seem concerned that we only speak from limited
knowledge of the circumstances.  This is inevitable; even if everyone
concerned were to open their hearts to the full, only the LORD knows the
truth of the heart.  However the discussions generally concern basic
principles as much as this particular situation, which was brought forward
for consideration on the 'limited facts' basis.  In that context, we are
giving as the LORD gives us, to the best of our understanding, and building
together.  To some extent, it is irrelevant if we do not have the original
situation precisely correct, because whoever wishes (eg, someone who knows
the people or the situation) can introduce any relevant points to us if
they require.  Otherwise, we can presume that the conclusions reached are
adequately on focus for whoever is interested. 

Bob, I have the impression from your replies that maybe you know the person
or situation, and are aware of facts which you feel would put it in a
different light.  If that is the case, feel free to show us how other 
considerations should affect this.  Our discussion can only address the 
situation as far as we know it.

I hope that this is of help!

							Andrew

    Bob,
    
    You tell me does the Bible go into "why" adultery happens?  
    
    Nancy

                      <<< Note 415.36 by SOLVIT::POLAND >>>

>    There can be far more to all of this than has presently been exposed
    
    	There can be, but there may not be either.  I find it shortsighted
    	in most cases to allow myself to be decision-paralyzed because of 
    	hypothetical situations or extreme examples.
    
>    No one in here or anywhere has all the answers, sees everything and can
>    even begin to understand the complexity of what God does and how He
>    does it.  
    
    	Correct.  No ONE here has all the answers, but as a body we (not
    	specifically this conference, but any "we" gathered together in
    	His name) we CAN quite frequently arrive at correct conclusions
    	through collective insight and collective challenge.
    
>    can define what is right and wrong according to what is presently
>    within the experience of the individual that holds the LAW to be
>    accepted.  
    
    	A agree with you that relying soleoy on one's individual insight
    	is apt to be dangerous.
    
>    Each person here is making comments and bringing forth opinion based
>    solely upon a fraction of what may actually be happening.  It is not
>    cut and dried, black or white.  
    
    	Agree and disagree.  I agree that statements and judgements are
    	being made with only a fraction of information.  I disagree,
    	however, with your notion of black-and-white, and with your
    	suggestion that this bad thing may actually be OK because of
    	some other circumstances.  Oh, I have no doubt that good (growth,
    	conversion, etc.) can come of it, but that same good could be
    	obtained without all the bad -- sometimes devastatingly bad
    	things -- that come from occurrences such as adultery.  I can
    	see more likelihood for bad things like divorce, broken lives,
    	devastated children and family, disillusionment, maybe a falling
    	away from the Church, perhaps suicide.
    
    	I understand that you are not arguing for adultery to be seen
    	as acceptable, but I think it is dangerous to even entertain the
    	notion that good can come from it.  For if we open that door a
    	crack, human nature will bust it wide open like pandoras box.
    
>    Things are not always what they appear to be. The process is not always
>    so beautiful.  
    
    	But I believe that most times they ARE as they appear to be, and
    	we ARE right in our first impressions and feelings.  Yes, they
    	are not ALWAYS so, but we do ourseles and others a disservice to
    	ignore common sense, morality, and judgement merely because we
    	MIGHT be wrong once in a while.  If we throw away all those other
    	times that we would have been right to avoid the few times we may 
    	be wrong, then we end up being wrong (by inaction) far too many
    	times.
    
>    God is a creator and to create unity within us He will allow what
>    ever it takes, even the abandonment of our spouse, our children, our
>    closest friends, our very lives, in what ever way it must be done to
>    accomplish the final goal, our perfection.
    
    	And what of THEIR perfection, if our abandonment causes them
    	to subsequently fall away?  Will they then have to hurt others
    	-- in what you can surely see becomes an ever-growing circle
    	of brokenness and destruction -- for them to experience the
    	catharsis that creates their perfection?
    
>    If I reach out to help that person on a bridge about to jump or that
>    person about to pick up a live wire (used a metaphors), I better be
>    certain that I am not doing so based on a self protective law or rule
>    or even upon my own experience, If I reach out I must be pure in my
>    heart with no ulterior motives.  Not one slightest bit of self
>    righteousness (the need to be right) better not be present within me.
    
    	Why must this be so?  I disagree with this notion.  

>    Mike I'm confused about the latter part of your sentence regarding
>    exception.
    
    Nancy, I was referencing adultery.  I'm sure God will honor the prayers
    of the righteous seeking a faithful mate after being wounded a first
    time.
    
    Mike

    
    Hi Bob,
    
    I've know you've gone silent her, but maybe you could clarify 2
    sections for me on.  I'm confused.  You can send me mail offline if
    you'd rather.
    
    >    God keeps us from the needs being met to make us grow to make us
    >    mature.
    
            I'm trying to think of one biblical example of this.
            I'm confused by this the bible says that God will supply all
            our needs according to his riches.  I don't remember an
    	    instance where God held back meeting a need.
    
    >    God is a creator and to create unity within us He will allow what
    >    ever it takes, even the abandonment of our spouse, our children,
    >    our closest friends, our very lives, in what ever way it must be 
    >    done to accomplish the final goal, our perfection.
    
    >    God did not permit any of you to go through divorce, adultery,
    >    infidelity so that you could turn around and stand behind a RULE,
    >    a LAW so that you will be protected, or that you could use to 
    >	 protect others.  God is in full charge of all that is happening.
    
            It almost sounds like your saying that since God knows the
    	    outcome, so he'll use any means to make it happen.  If so, 
    	    I believe that is inconsistent with the nature of God.  He 
    	    will not stoop so low as to lead anyone into sin to get their 
    	    heart right with Him.  Perhaps I misunderstood this, but 
    	    that's what I thought it was saying.
    
    Thanks, Jill

    
    Thanks Bob for clearing that up.  That makes much more sense to
    me now.  But I will say that I don't think my confusion was 
    preconceived.  I just wasn't sure what you meant...that's why I
    asked for clarification.  Thanks again.
    
    God bless,
    Jill

| <<< Note 415.26 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

| Marrying for love is not out of the question Glen.  Marrying someone
| elses husband/wife is.

	I agree that nothing should be happening while one is married. I
believe that marriage should be based on love between 2 consenting adults.
I do not believe that 2 people should not allow to marry simply because one 
or both were divorced. 



Glen

| <<< Note 415.30 by OUTSRC::HEISER "watchman on the wall" >>>


| God doesn't make mistakes. If He brought a man and woman together, it won't be
| His will to bring another in your life with the exception already in His Word.

	Mike, God may not have brought these 2 together. They may have married,
but He may not have been the one to bring them together.

| <<< Note 415.33 by BBQ::WOODWARDC "between the Glory and the Flame" >>>


| If this man continues to pursue this woman, there will be Sin. The Sin of 
| Adultery. The Sin of Divorce. 

	I agree with the 1st, but am not so sure about the 2nd. Divorce might
happen with or without the other person there. 

| Woman - cleave to you husband. Beg his forgiveness. *work* at your marriage. 

	Working at a marriage has to be a 2 way street. If BOTH are willing to
work at it, then BOTH must do it. If only one is working, chances are the
marriage will fail.

| You will only get _out_ of the marriage what you put in.

	Yes and no. Depends on if the spouse is selfish or not, loving, etc. A
one sided marriage is a marriage going nowhere.



Glen

                      <<< Note 415.48 by SOLVIT::POLAND >>>



	Great note!

	I would like everyone to see the note posted below. Please read it, and
heed it. By what this one person did, the confusion was lifted for her. She did
not accuse anyone, but just asked, and was answered.


Glen




                     <<< Note 415.49 by CSC32::KINSELLA >>>
                                    -< :-) >-

    
    Thanks Bob for clearing that up.  That makes much more sense to
    me now.  But I will say that I don't think my confusion was 
    preconceived.  I just wasn't sure what you meant...that's why I
    asked for clarification.  Thanks again.
    
    God bless,
    Jill

        Note 415.52 

> A one sided marriage is a marriage going nowhere.

    	Of course, two-sided marriages are the expectation.  When
    	most people talk about marriage, that is the assumption.
    	I would like to believe that for most marriages starting
    	out today, both spouses expect this of themselves too.  A
    	marriage where one spouse does NOT expect this of himself
    	should not be allowed (currently most churches -- of any
    	denomination -- are not very good at weeding these out)
    	and those that are wed where one or both spouses have this
    	attitude are (as you say) most likely going nowhere.

	Joe, I agree with your note that this is how people should go into
marriage. I wish it were always the case.



Glen

	Notes .54 and .57 were deleted by me, the author. The note in which
they referenced has been modified, so they wouldn't make sense now. :-) I
really like the modification.


Glen

    Re: .58
    
    Great note, Joe!
    
    One thing our church does to weed out potential problems: 6-month 
    premarital counseling session is mandatory, if you want to get married 
    there.
    
    Mike

    
    That's a great idea Mike!  I am really amazed at the pace that people
    rush into marriage. (what they vow as a *life-long* commitment) I know 
    one girl who met someone in December, was engaged in February, and 
    married in April.  Hardly time to know enough about the person.  I 
    believe that a minimum courtship of at least a year is profitable in 
    addition to counselling.  It's important to see someone in all 4 
    seasons and see how they react to winter, spring rains, holidays, 
    birthdays, how they handle their money, how they treat kids, all kinds 
    of things.
    
    Jill
    
    P.S.  My friend started being physically assaulted by this man shortly
          after they were married and even after her child was born.  She
      	  left him and is now a single mom fighting to keep him away from
    	  their daughter.  Very sad.
    

Hmmm...


My wife and I meet in February, had our first date in April, engaged in May and
married in November. We're still married and loving it after 16 years (-:
(Aussie Smile)

Peter.

	Jamie and I met in September and were married in August

	However, it was September of 1985 and August of 1989.

	There can be such a thing as too long a trial period, too ;-)

>            <<< Note 415.63 by AUSSIE::BELL "Caritas Patiens est" >>>
>
>Hmmm...
>
>
>My wife and I meet in February, had our first date in April, engaged in May and
>married in November. We're still married and loving it after 16 years (-:
>(Aussie Smile)
>
>Peter.

Hi Peter,

Hey we finally got your Christmas card awhile back after it wandered all over
the globe!

We were rather quick too - met in November, first date in December, engaged in
January, and married in October.  It wasn't quite as long ago though ... our
6th anniversary will be this October :-).  I'm not sure if being in our 
thirties made a difference though - a better idea of what we needed in a 
spouse, more awareness of our own limitations.


Leslie

    	Recommending longer betrothal periods does not mean that ALL
    	cases of shorter engagements will not work, nor will ALL
    	longer engagements ensure a good marriage.
    
    	Of course, we are speaking generally.

<----he speaketh the truth!!!! :-)

    
    That's great Peter and Leslie.  And not to say that a short courtship
    and engagment period hasn't worked and won't continue to work for some
    people. I am very glad that God has blessed your marriages and pray
    that He will continue to do so always.  But would you recommend a quick
    engagement for everybody?  My guess is probably not.  Nor as Joe
    pointed out does a long dating/engagement period absolutely guarantee a
    lifelong commitment being kept in a marriage.
    
    But in general, we are talking about a commitment to:
    
    love -  being patient, kind, does not envy, does not boast, is
            not proud, is not rude, is not self-seeking, it not easily
            angered, keeps no records of wrongs, doesn't delight
            in evil but rejoices with the truth, always protects,
            always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres at all times.
    
    honor - both the feeling and expression of high regard, deep
            respect and devotion at all times.
    
    cherish - to hold dear; treat with affection and tenderness
              at all times.
    
    in sickness & in health - even when she/he is throwing
            up; when she/he is too sick and has to be waited
            on hand and foot and you have to watch the kids,
            keep the house clean, and get dinner on the table;
            and when she/he finds out that they have a disease
            that completely turns your life upside down and
            might possible result in you being left to carry
            the burden of your family along.
    
    for richer for poorer - even when the paychecks aren't
            stretching, when you think if you see macaroni
            and cheese again you'll just lose it, when you've
            lost your job, your home, your car, when she/he
            made a bad investment that you can never recover
            from,  when you can't get anyone to give you credit
            or loan, and even when they are spending out of
            control whether out of compulsion or addiction.
    
    forsaking all others - having no substitutes for your
            spouse whether it be physical or emotional.  Not
            having a level of intimacy with anyone else that
            should be had only with your spouse.
    
    until death do you part - meaning that the only way out of
            this commitment is the death of one of you.  (and
            murder is against the law  ;'D ) This means not
            bailing when it gets tough, when she/he becomes ugly
            (emotionally or physically), when she/he changes
            drastically, when you no longer have anything in
            common, when her/his ways become unlike your own, or
            when she/he has hurt you so deeply that you never
            think you'll heal.
    
    That's serious business!  I know people who do more research when
    buying a car or picking a college than they do choosing a spouse and
    these commitments are only for a few years.  And we're not talking
    about a business merger, we're talking about something that God has 
    joined together that He doesn't want to come apart with the only 
    exception being death.
                       
    I would say that based on the level of commitment that I understand
    marriage is going to take, I would recommend a long dating period (an
    absolute minimum of a year, preferably 2-3 years) to all people without
    exception.  Having said that let me add that I have lots of friends who
    dated for only a short time followed by very short engagement periods,
    they are doing fine.  But I feel a longer dating period would have
    allowed them to learn more about each other and avoided some troubles
    in their early years of marriage.
    
    As you can probably tell, marriage is a subject I am very passionate
    about.  It is a commitment that to date I have chosen not to make, not
    because I don't want to but because I take it so seriously and have not
    found someone who I am both compatible with and who has this level of
    commitment.  God willing someday He will provide this for me, but if
    not, He'll give me the grace to get through life without it.
    
    In Christ's love, 
    Jill
    
    P.S.  Jill graciously steps down off her soapbox and then bolts for
    	  cover.  ;'D

I don't think you have to dodge bolts Jill :-), after all my title said
I wouldn't recommend the way Greg and I did things to everyone.  But I 
do think 2 or 3 years might be longer than some people need.  The thing 
is, a long waiting period is a huge stress too, in terms of temptation.  
Or at least, I think the betrothal period should be fairly brief - once 
the couple is actually engaged there should not be long delays in getting
married as a general rule.  

I agree with all the other stuff you wrote, but no matter how long the 
waiting or how well you think you know someone, any marriage is still 
going to have difficulties.  The key to overcoming the difficulties is
multi-fold: 1) marriage centered on God 2) partners have mutual respect
for each other 3) both partners committed to the other's good 4) both
partners able to talk with each other and negogiate 5) mutual priorities - 
especially as concerns having children, monetary priorities, and time
priorities.  The couple needs to examine their respective priorities and 
make sure they are aligned before they get married.  

And one should not marry a project, someone who needs your help to get out 
of a bad situation or recover from hurts in the past.  When you marry, you 
are marrying a PARTNER.  Partners should be basically co-equal, you are not 
marrying a substitute parent to take care of you, or a child for you to 
nurture.   So you should look for someone whom you respect and with whom you 
can negotiate,  and of course, someone who shares your faith in God so that 
the two of you can pray together over all the issues you will face in your 
marriage.

Leslie

   Also, I guess I would add that marriage is very, very different
   from dating, and I have come to think dating is not actually a 
   training ground for marriage at all.  The best traing ground for 
   marriage is probably having been a witness to the successful 
   marriage of one's parents, BUT it seems that those who've had that
   opportunity are a very rare & blessed group of people.

   Leslie

    
    Amen Leslie.  I agree wholeheartedly!  Even on a short engagement
    time after a long dating period.  I have no problem with it
    once someone has decided to spend the rest of their lives with someone 
    after a period of discovery (gee...a legal term...I guess I've seen too
    much coverage of the OJ trial.   ;'D   )  I do sometimes question 
    people's motives when they marry in private - sometimes this is 
    because they know their family and friends do not agree with their
    choice.  Not that I think anyone can make that choice except you,
    but I think it's important to honestly look at the feedback of others
    who know and love you best before making your own decision.
    
    Something else you commented on that I thought was exceptionally
    insightful was the age factor.  The stats on marriage & divorce say
    that you are *more likely* (again not that there are not exceptions)
    to be successful if you wait to marry until you're at least 28.  I 
    think it's because you know yourself better by then and have a better 
    idea of what you need and what you're capable of giving.  
    
    God bless,
    Jilla

    
    RE: .70
    
    >The best training ground for marriage is probably having been a
    witness
    >to the successful marriage of one's parents, BUT it seems that those
    >who've had that opportunity are a very rare & blessed group of people.
    
    So true Leslie!  I count myself blessed to be in this group and believe 
    that's why I am so passionate about the subject of marriage.  :-)
           
    Jilla

    Hi,
    
    My engagement process was 3-4 months. We both looked at each other 
    and said "I didn't know that about you??"
    
    My take on marriage is:
    
    PRIOR TO GETTING MARRIED AND DURING ...
    
    First - HONESTY AND COMMUNICATION - share everything with your spouse
    	    past failures, sins - let it all out - come CLEAN. If you
    	    don't prior to marriage, it'll come out later. Deal with it
    	    immediately when it does. When out for the night with your
    	    spouse, I would recommend not making jokes or poking fun 
            about him or her to other people that you are with. It's best 
    	    to compliment and build up not tear down in the company of
    	    others. 
    
    Second - Get a prayer life together prior to marriage. Commit to 
            to it on a daily basis. Most important way to keep connected.
    	    Pray against generational sins that have been passed down
    	    to you. Clean your slate. Cut yourself free from soul ties
    	    or soul bonds - prior relationships. 
    
    Third - COMMITMENT - Understand that marriage is a commitment just 
    	    as important as your covenant relationship with the Lord.
    	    It took me 14 years to finally understand how important this
    	    commitment was. Of course God is first, but your one-flesh
    	    relationship is a bond of great importance to God too. 
    
    
    Sorry I got on the soapbox, but I have learned alot recently and
    it's neat to have a good marriage.
    
    Steve
    

    Jilla,

    so true. So so *so* true - thank you.

    Harry

    	re .71
    
    	Yes, Jill, age is definitely a factor, though I have never see
    	that age-28 item.  I recall reading a study of the US census
    	statistics.  (Remember that last census?  One out of 10 people
    	or so were given a long form to fill out.  They gleaned all
    	sorts of stats from that.)
    
    	If you marry under the age of 18, 2 out of 3 end up divorced.
    
    	Other interesting things:
    
    	If your courtship-and-engagement was less that 6 months, 50%
    	divorce.  If more than a year, 20% divorce.
    
    	Couples who had a sexual relationship together before getting 
    	married were 50% more likely to divorce than if they didn't.  
    
    	The more spiritual the couple, the less likely they were to
    	divorce.  I don't recall the numbers, but those who were
    	married "in the church" (sanctioned by some religion without
    	specifying which) were less likely to divorce than those
    	not married in the church.  Those who attend church were
    	even less likely.  Those who attend church together, less
    	likely still, and finally those who pray together were the
    	least likely in that string of comparisons.
    
    	Second and subsequent marriages were higher risks.
    
    	Marriages of mixed faiths were higher risks.
    
    	Marriages of significant age differences were higher risks.
    
    	Sorry, I don't have the various numbers here.

                       <<< Note 415.73 by SUBSYS::DYER >>>
    
>            about him or her to other people that you are with. It's best 
>    	    to compliment and build up not tear down in the company of
>    	    others. 
    
    	oooh, how true.  And how common is the opposite!  The TV show
    	Home Improvement did an episode on this where Tim was inadvertently
    	videotaped cracking jokes about his wife in a hardware store.
    
    	We should treat our spouse with the care we would treat a
    	treasure -- whether in his/her presence or not.
    
>    	    Cut yourself free from soul ties
>    	    or soul bonds - prior relationships. 
    
    	For some men, this "soul tie" extends to pornography.  I've
    	seen couples torn apart because the husband holds onto an
    	apparent addiction to "harmless" things like Penthouse.  It
    	seems that they were infected by a mentality and expectations
    	that neither partner could live up to.
    
    	And as for praying together, pray for each other.  Outloud,
    	in the presence of each other.  Pray for health and richness
    	in relationship.  Pray for passion between you!
    
>    Third - COMMITMENT - Understand that marriage is a commitment just 
>    	    as important as your covenant relationship with the Lord.
    
	Amen.    
    
>    Sorry I got on the soapbox, but I have learned alot recently and
>    it's neat to have a good marriage.
    
	We cannot hear it enough.  The message needs to be spread
    	here, and even more to the general society!  You do a great
    	service to share the message and its manifestations in your
    	own example marriage.

    Joe,

    I read through your note on the stats, and I am so glad I've got God in
    there batting for me.

    So many of the 'contributors' to a divorce are present in my marriage,
    from the 'not married in church' through to age difference through to
    second marriage.

    I am coming to more and more realise just how much I rely on God's Love
    and Grace to just keep my life together. That goes _double_ for keeping
    my marriage together - not that it's 'on the rocks'. After all, if you
    take someone for granite (granted), your relationship will end-up on
    the rocks ;')

    Thank you Lord God for Your watching over me, thank You Father for
    giving me such a wonderful and loving wife. Lord God, make me more like
    You, make me a Servant to my wife, and to my children. In my Precious
    Saviour Jesus' Name, amen

All good discussion, figures, etc.

I suppose our first thoughts during our courtship was "Is this God's will for
Us?", from that flowed prayer, bible reading etc. 

There was even one incident where I refused to take certain actions because of
what it could do to my relationship with Elizabeth, and I'm now sure my refusal
was the right thing to do. 

All in all its been sixteen+ years of growth, both in our love for each other
and our love for our Lord.

Peter.

PS Watching the kids grow up is also fun. God is Good!

     <<< Note 415.77 by BBQ::WOODWARDC "between the Glory and the Flame" >>>

>    So many of the 'contributors' to a divorce are present in my marriage,
>    from the 'not married in church' through to age difference through to
>    second marriage.

    	You can always draw encouragement from the fact that none of
    	the factors said 100% divorce rate!
    
    	The world needs couples like you to ensure that it stays that
    	way.
    
    	BTW, if God is really a part of your marriage, what stops you
    	from renewing your vows in an official church ceremony?  Makes
    	a great anniversary gift to each other!

    
>    	BTW, if God is really a part of your marriage, what stops you
>    	from renewing your vows in an official church ceremony?  Makes
>    	a great anniversary gift to each other!



   We had a couple in our church do this last week.  They asked our pastor 
  to perform the ceremony, but they wanted to have it done at a place in
  York, Maine right near the lighthouse there.

  A number of passersby gathered to observe so Pastor tossed in a gospel message
  in the ceremony and a man came forward afterwards and was saved!



 Jim

Response to Oppelt...(Sorry, can't remember your first name!!!)

You mentioned soul ties/bonds extending to pornography. The soul bonds
I was talking about were relationships (usually sexual)outside of marriage
when you have given yourself(your body) to this person. You have become
one-flesh in an unhealthy relationship with that person. I agree with you 
that pornography is rampant and hidden deep within men's(moreso than women)
hearts and minds. Because our culture through the media pushes it, there is
almost no where to hide to get away from it. I would suggest putting away
or at least monitoring those things that cause us to stumble. - television,
magazines, radio, the beach. Addictions are hard to break!!

I also noticed that you can also create soul tie/bonds with 
someone you are attracted to, spending a long time with them sharing intimate
feelings etc. You give yourself to this person through spirit, emotion and mind.
Something that should only be reserved for your spouse. I believe maybe this is
why it is often suggested that when you counsel or pray for someone of the
opposite sex that you have two people do it? male and female to avoid the
vulnerability of sin. 

Baggage!!! We all have it huh?? My baggage stayed on the baggage mover for 14
years going round and round in circles until finally I took it off and checked
it out. You never know how much damage that baggage is causing until it opens up
and all of your clothes fall out into plain sight!! This happened to me - I
almost lost my marriage. My wife is a wonderful forgiving person who loves me, 
I am blessed - she was a priceless diamond married to a piece of coal. I tried
to shine, but couldn't. 

Praise the Lord that he is merciful and forgiving. He restores your soul.

Men(and women), if you have soul bonds/ties that have not brought out into the
open with your spouse and you are afraid that it will destroy your marriage - it
may. You may need a time of separation to deal with the hurt. When trust is
damaged it's like cutting off an arm in the relationship. 
BUT, praise God, if you truly have a loving spouse and you truly have a
repentent heart and he/she truly loves the Lord, hopefully you will be forgiven.
You own relationship with the Lord will be restored and your marriage bed will
be pure and holy once again. You can walk in confidence in newness of life. It's
great!!!

In Love,

Steve



  

                       <<< Note 415.81 by SUBSYS::DYER >>>
>You mentioned soul ties/bonds extending to pornography. The soul bonds
>I was talking about were relationships (usually sexual)outside of marriage
>when you have given yourself(your body) to this person. 
    
    	Oh, you were very clear the first time, and right on the
    	money.  I was just piggy-backing on your statement and 
    	expanding the idea to something that isn't often considered
    	a barrier in the relationship, but in actuality has become
    	one for couples I've known.
    
    	And some men *do* give themselves bodily (in a way) to their
    	pornography.  That's all the more reason to forsake it.
    
    	Joe

    Joe,

>    	You can always draw encouragement from the fact that none of
>   	the factors said 100% divorce rate!

    That's a big AMEN! :') Although, I sometimes wonder - are they
    cumulative, or just work in parallel :') Either way, it is through
    God's Spirit and by His Grace that we are surviving.

>    	BTW, if God is really a part of your marriage, what stops you
>    	from renewing your vows in an official church ceremony?  Makes
>    	a great anniversary gift to each other!

    Tentaively 'planned' for 1997 - our 7th Anniversary ;') Sometime after
    that, we'll probably have the 'second honeymoon' via Europe and US -
    the timing fits just about nicely :')

    Thanks for crystalising my thoughts :') _Definitely_ gotta stop off in
    CoSp!

    God Bless,

	    Harry

    	Ah, yes.  Good point.  A nice side benefit to the reaffirmation
    	in the church -- besides being a great anniversary gift -- is
    	that you get a second honeymoon!