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Conference yukon::christian_v7

Title:	The CHRISTIAN Notesfile
Notice:	Jesus reigns! - Intros: note 4; Praise: note 165
Moderator:	ICTHUS::YUILLEON

Created:	Tue Feb 16 1993
Last Modified:	Fri May 02 1997
Last Successful Update:	Fri Jun 06 1997
Number of topics:	962
Total number of notes:	42902

411.0. "Religious Symbols forbidden in Yellow Pages" by KOLBE::eje (Eric James Ewanco) Sun Feb 20 1994 18:57

I just found this on Catholic Resources Network.

  Msg#: 6119                                         Date: 02-17-94  19:55
  From: Darden Brock                                 Read: Yes    Replied: No 
    To: All                                          Mark:                     
  Subj: CENSORSHIP

The following article was in today's Washington Times. I found it very
alarming, we are beginning to be more like Russia than the good old USA. I also
placed this article in the News and Current Events Forum library, yellowpg.txt.

               YELLOW PAGES CLOSED TO RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS

                   HUD rule hits church nursing homes

                           By Larry Witham
                 THE WASHINGTON TIMES February 17, 1994

If you let your fingers do the walking through the Yellow Pages' housing ads in
coming days, they probably will never trip over a religious symbol.

Federal fair-housing probes have prompted Yellow Pages publishers to start 
stripping religious symbols from ads for church-affiliated nursing homes, 
saying the icons convey discrimination.

US West, which produces 300 Yellow Pages directories in 14 states, has begun
its 1994-95 publishing cycle by asking two nursing homes in Minnesota to delete
Christian symbols from their ads.

The initiative comes from the Department of Housing and Urban Development's
fair-housing division, headed by Roberta Achtenberg. Several inquiries to HUD
officials went unanswered yesterday.

"It is the beginning of what is going to be happening in all the phone books,"
said Suzanne Hartley, community relations coordinator for Good Shepherd
Lutheran Home near St. Cloud, Minn.

The home's logo, a shepherd's cross, had to be excised before the ad could be
placed.  St. Benedict's Center, a Catholic nursing home in the same area, was
forced to remove a symbol bearing a cross. It also was told to change its
motto, "Spiritual care for all faith's" to "All faiths welcome without
preference."

"Our policy does not allow religious references in ads falling under headings
for housing ' US West spokeswoman Susan Poulos said noting that nursing homes
were recently added to the policy.

"A religious symbol or phrase in an ad can be viewed by a customer not of that
religion as saying their business is not welcome ' she said.

Industry sources said US West is one of three "Baby Bell" Yellow Pages 
publishers investigated under the new HUD initiative, which resulted in the
policy change.

"It's become an issue for the Yellow Pages publishers of the country in the
last several months," said John Purcell, vice president for public policy at
the Yellow Pages Publishers Association.

"In each case, the outcome has been held between HUD and the company," he said.
US West officials said the policy change resulted from its own annual internal
review.

"We are expecting to go to HUD and get guidelines to send to our membership to
police ourselves' Mr. Purcell said.  He said his group's 500 member publishers
produce Yellow Pages directories that 97.5 percent of the adults in America
consult at least once a week.

HUD dictates that ads tied to housing--from rentals and real estate to lending
banks, trailer parks and nursing homes--not display items related to religion,
age, family status or gender that would appear to discriminate.

The dispute over the Minnesota Yellow Pages reflects a growing legal conflict
between anti-discrimination laws and claims of religious freedom.

For instance, two Massachusetts brothers have won in court their contention
that renting an apartment to an unmarried couple abets a sin, which their
religion does not allow.  Also, in Wisconsin, a woman who placed a tenant ad
for a "mature Christian handyman" was fined by local HUD authorities, leading
to litigation costing thousands of dollars.

Moreover, news reports on the Minnesota phone-book flap have roused protests
over federal regulations that appear to limit religious freedom.

"The same U.S. government that favors proliferation of the word 'condom' has,
through the Fair Housing Act, convinced US West that refusal to allow 
proliferation of religious terminology is not to be construed as censorship or
as a violation of freedom of religion or freedom of expression," wrote Sister
Nancy Bauer, editor of the St. Cloud Visitor, the diocesan newspaper.

"Furthermore, if people want to use those terms, it is to be construed that
they intend to unfairly discriminate against those who are not of the same
faith or who are of no faith," she wrote in a newspaper editorial.

Diane Hageman of St. Benedict's Center said US West's policy has "gone 
overboard" in attempts to make ads "as religion-free as possible."

Officials at Good Shepherd Lutheran Home said the 1988 Fair Housing Act's 
exemption for exclusive housing for the elderly also covers the home's 
religious identification.

But US West's Ms. Poulos said the religion exemption is only for groups that
serve only their own members, such as convents. "I think the resistance to
change is high," she said.

Similar disputes may arise next year, as 299 other areas serviced by US West
become aware of the company's new standards for Yellow Pages.

Bell Atlantic, which publishes 240 Yellow Pages directories in six states near
the District, has agreed with HUD on guidelines to avoid discrimination,
industry sources said.

"If an organization of business is directly affiliated with a church, they may
use religious symbols," said Bell Atlantic spokeswoman Stephanie Hobbs, noting
that the policy is at least 3 years old.

She said, however, that Bell Atlantic would not allow a proprietor to place a
Christian fish or Jewish symbol in an ad in hopes of drawing those believers.

T.R	Title	User	Personal Name	Date	Lines
411.1	urck.	RICKS::PSHERWOOD		`Sun Feb 20 1994 22:43`	8
	that was not a pleasant thing to read before going to bed.... guess I better say a few prayers while the words I use are still legal.... :-/ it seems like so much blatant intolerance in the name of tolerance or something... argg... I will not get started. I will not get started. :-)
411.2		EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS	Trade freedom for His security-GAIN both	`Mon Feb 21 1994 08:30`	7
	"Woe to them that call good evil and evil good." When I think I've heard it all, there's yet more. Sigh. Paul
411.3		AIMHI::JMARTIN		`Mon Feb 21 1994 10:22`	3
	So much for the 1st ammendment!! -Jack
411.4		CSLALL::HENDERSON	Acts 4:12	`Mon Feb 21 1994 10:36`	14
	RE: <<< Note 411.0 by KOLBE::eje "Eric James Ewanco" >>> > -< Religious Symbols forbidden in Yellow Pages >- >The initiative comes from the Department of Housing and Urban Development's >fair-housing division, headed by Roberta Achtenberg. Several inquiries to HUD Why am I not surprised? Jim
411.5	they go too far	CSOA1::LEECH	It can't happen here.	`Mon Feb 21 1994 11:08`	12
	Yet more proof that the government is anti-religion...or more precisely, anti-Christian. Anyone hear about the new bill...HR6 (or HR4, or something like that). The NEA is basically trying to put homeschool our of business and regulate private schools...particularly volnerable are the Christian schools. It's a power-grab that will put all our children in the hands of the government. OBE is not dead... So much for freedom of religion. -steve
411.6	Socialist Regime	STRATA::BARBIERI	God can be so appreciated!	`Mon Feb 21 1994 11:38`	10
	The United States of America is a socialist regime getting more socialist all the time. It has been on a march to be more and more involved in the regulation of our lives. We are in the last days. The New World Order charter just keeps on getting nearer and nearer to completion. Its anti-God period. Tony
411.7		FRETZ::HEISER	shut up 'n' jam!	`Mon Feb 21 1994 11:44`	3
	To add to what Tony said, this is just of the beginning of religious freedoms, that we've taken for granted, falling by the wayside. It has to happen for the lawless one to appear.
411.8	HOPE	POWDML::MOSSEY		`Mon Feb 21 1994 14:49`	17
	Hellllloooooo!! What am I hearing here? The past few replys sound like folks have given up hope, that you are resigned to just accepting 'the inevitable'. While I don't believe we can stick our heads in the sand and deny that the end is coming, I also think we have to balance that with prayer and getting involved (whatever it takes - writing letters, calling congressmen, file class actions, etc). Only then can we say, we fought the good fight, we gave it our best. I am reminded of Abraham's entreaty to God when he was going to wipe out Soddom & Gommorah: If you can find 50 righteous, will you spare them, etc. down to 10 righteous. God can stem the tide, maybe He's just waiting for us to ask. Karen
411.9	Part of Reason of My Stance...	STRATA::BARBIERI	God can be so appreciated!	`Mon Feb 21 1994 16:15`	17
	re: .8 Hi Karen, Well, I believe that we should do what we can to stem the tide of apostasy, _but_ when your prophetic understanding includes believing that the two horned beast in Rev 13 is the United State and when you believe a certain person (Ellen White) who said that the United States will repudiate everything in its constitution, it gives one a different slant on what will some day come to pass. But, I sure appreciate the spirit and attitude of your reply! Tony
411.10	both fail the tests of a prophet - Deuteronomy 13 & 18	FRETZ::HEISER	shut up 'n' jam!	`Mon Feb 21 1994 16:19`	3
	> you believe a certain person (Ellen White) who said that but Ellen, like Joseph Smith also said that men lived on other planets.
411.11	Keep trying until He comes!	CLOHUB::SYLVAN::Reeves		`Mon Feb 21 1994 17:22`	16
	Karen, I don't know what the outcome will be, but I'm not willing to "throw in the towel" yet. I wrote my Congressman re: House Bill #6, and gave him a call. I continue to discuss the intrusion of government in our lives with non-believers, in hopes of getting them to recognize the folly of allowing government to grow unchecked, and I continue to pray that more Christians (including myself) will wake-up to the need for repentance and revival in America as well as the whole world. I don't know if things will get better before Christ returns or worse, but I want to be found working on making them better in either case! regards, David
411.12		CSOA1::LEECH	It can't happen here.	`Mon Feb 21 1994 17:35`	17
	I look at it all as being exciting. The signs are coming more rapidly with the passage of time. Pretty soon, it will be obvious to all what is going on in this country and the world, and I will have yet more ammunition to use in witnessing. Actually, the worse things get, the more open folks are to listening to you speak about Jesus. Maybe a twisted way of looking at things, but I'll do what I can to keep a positive attitude in this matter. I also think that we should do what we can to "fight the good fight" while we're here. I've been a bit slack on my letters and phone calls to my representatives, so I guess I better get on the ball! That durn DC switchboard is busy at the moment (or unplugged for the evening)... -steve
411.13	I Speak From My Perspective	STRATA::BARBIERI	God can be so appreciated!	`Tue Feb 22 1994 09:00`	22
	Mike, When did she say that Mike? Can you cite that one? Boy, if you read 'Desire of Ages', or 'Christ's Object Lessons', or 'Steps to Christ' or 'Thoughts On The Mount of Blessing', you would come away knowing at the very least that this was one extremely godly woman. She was recently posthumously given some Congressional medal for her 'uncanny' insights related to health. This woman with a 3rd grade education said things about health that it often took science over 100 years to find out and all the while she said, "I saw." Mike, you speak of ignorance. At the very least...you have no idea how Godly this woman was and how Christ-filled her writings are - if you did, you'd have a much different perspective. As anyone knows, an impartial jury hears two sides. How many sides have you heard? Tony
411.14	Fight tooth and nail	POWDML::MOSSEY		`Tue Feb 22 1994 10:54`	13
	.9 & .11 Thanks for voicing your thoughts on this. Jesus said we are to 'occupy' until He returns - I don't think that just means going about our own business and letting someone else fight the battles for us. Tony - never heard of Ellen White - could you share some background please? Thanks, Karen
411.15	BUT START A NEW TOPIC PLEASE	JULIET::MORALES_NA	Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze	`Tue Feb 22 1994 11:06`	3
	Yeah Tony why don't you tell us? :-) Hi there Friend...
411.16	Not Sure Its A Good Idea	STRATA::BARBIERI	God can be so appreciated!	`Tue Feb 22 1994 11:53`	18
	Hi Karen and Nancy, Boy, should I really? I'll say one thing about Ellen White. I believe the most 'meaty' prophetic things she has ever uttered will be considered 'child's play' by the last generation when it comes to know the "height and breadth and depth" of God's love. They'll look back on her and relative to their present understanding of the gospel, she'll be like playing with blocks. That would be perhaps the greatest validation that she was a prophet. I'll think about it...write me offline if you really want me to open a topic on her. Tony
411.17		FRETZ::HEISER	shut up 'n' jam!	`Tue Feb 22 1994 12:06`	11
	> When did she say that Mike? Can you cite that one? I'll have the exact quote and source for you either later this evening or tomorrow. > Mike, you speak of ignorance. At the very least...you have no idea No, I speak from an ex-SDA pastor (graduate with honors from Pacific Union College), who is now my pastor. The Lord has worked wonders through his ministry and many SDA pastors have come to know salvation through Jesus Christ because of it.
411.18	Ahhhh...So That's What It Means To Hear 'The Other Side'!	STRATA::BARBIERI	God can be so appreciated!	`Tue Feb 22 1994 13:09`	13
	Ok Mike...you don't speak from ignorance. In other words, you've most likely read at least one of the books I mentioned and (of course) you've listened to converted SDA ministers within the SDA church. Wait a second...perhaps you are implying it is impossible to be SDA and be converted? Well, I believe in salvation through faith which works by love and I haven't seen a single nonscriptural writer come close to portraying the love of God as Ellen White has. Tony
411.19		RICKS::PSHERWOOD		`Tue Feb 22 1994 13:09`	2
	what is SDA?
411.20		MIMS::CASON_K		`Tue Feb 22 1994 13:18`	2
	Seventh Day Adventist
411.21	Where I'm Coming From	STRATA::BARBIERI	God can be so appreciated!	`Tue Feb 22 1994 14:58`	25
	I'm really sorry this discussion spun off the way it did. I only meant to very briefly explain my perspective as to why I don't believe the United States will ultimately undergo a 'collective' revival. I mentioned Ellen White not to spawn a conversation about her - merely to openly describe where I'm coming from (as it relates to this topic). Personally, if a Mormon came in here and briefly mentioned Joseph Smith in a similar vein (just to aid in revealing a personal perspective such a person might have), I would NEVER jump on that person's personal religious beliefs. I just don't think that's right. Anyway, I'd prefer this discussion stayed where it is. Its not that I don't think its right to discuss or question Ellen White - I just don't think it belongs here. Again, I brought her up to clarify my perspective and not to try to convince anyone else to have that same perspective (i.e. where Ellen White is concerned). Tony
411.22	Who's on first?	POWDML::MOSSEY		`Tue Feb 22 1994 16:31`	12
	Tony- I wasn't necessarily asking you to open a new topic on Ellen White, I just wanted a 2-liner on who she was - I had never heard the name before. If you don't feel comfortable doing that here, maybe you could send me mail off-line. Thanks, Karen
411.23		OUTSRC::HEISER	shut up 'n' jam!	`Tue Feb 22 1994 19:43`	6
	Tony, I'm sorry if you felt I was jumping on you (it wouldn't be the first time I've been accused of this ;-)). Going by the evidence that I've been exposed to, I simply can't hold her and her opinions in the same light as you do. Mike
411.24	Thanks Mike	STRATA::BARBIERI	God can be so appreciated!	`Wed Feb 23 1994 08:38`	8
	re -1 Thanks Mike...I appreciate your reply and after reading your posting on Ellen White...I hear ya! God Bless, Tony
411.25	REVERSED! We WON!	KOLBE::eje	Eric James Ewanco	`Thu Apr 14 1994 16:38`	74
	An update on the issue ... praise God! Article taken from the March 12, 1994 issue of "The Washington Times." YELLOW PAGES OKS RELIGIOUS SYMBOLS by Larry Witham One of the nation's largest Yellow Pages publishers has reversed its policy of barring religious symbols from housing ads, saying adherence to fair housing laws does not require the ban. US West, which publishes 300 Yellow Pages directories in 14 states, still will require nursing homes that display religious symbols in their ads to include a statement of nondiscrimination, such as "All faiths welcome without preference." US West's policy first stirred controversy in St. Cloud, Minn. last month after Lutheran and Roman Catholic nursing homes were asked to remove symbols from their telephone book ads. The policy also prompted questions on Capitol Hill over whether the fair housing division of the Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) was prodding Yellow Pages publishers to strip away religious allusions that could be construed as discriminatory. Carol Johnson, vice president for directory sales for US West, said the "Baby Bell" telephone company reviewed the federal Fair Housing Act "in response to concerns by our advertisers and the general public." "As a result, we have adopted a policy revision which allows customers providing housing and housing-related services to include religious symbols and references in their Yellow Pages ads ' she said. The 1968 Fair Housing Act states that housing ads must not convey "limitation, preference or discrimination." Rep. Wayne T. Gilchrist, Maryland Republican, has asked Housing Secretary Henry Cisneros if religious nursing homes or religious groups that provide housing are targets of fair-housing probes. HUD has not publicly answered his inquiries. A lawyer familiar with fair-housing issues said the fair-housing division has in the past year focused on investigating religious nursing and retirement homes that have received federal funds. "The next fair-housing push envisioned by the career staffers was going to be to look behind the doors of religious nursing homes, religious retirement homes," said the lawyer, who asked to not be identified. Sara Pratt, chief of investigations for HUD's fair-housing division, has said "there is particular initiative" regarding religious institutions or nursing homes. She said HUD has been policing housing advertising for 2 1/2 years to root out any kind of discrimination. Part of HUD's focus has been on housing bearing religious names. Last year, fair-housing lawyers ruled that the "Christian Village of Central Virginia," a retirement home being built in Mechanicsville with HUD loans, had violated anti-discrimination law by its use of "Christian" in its name. "It is inadvisable for HUD to approve a loan until the Village's name comports with the [Fair Housing] Act," said Harry Carey, fair-housing assistant general counsel, in an April 16, 1993, memorandum. "If the loan has already been approved, the region [office] would be best advised to take action to rescind the loan," Mr. Carey said in the memorandum. The village has since complied with a HUD recommendation to add the statement "a non-denominational housing facility" to its signs, cards and letterhead.
411.26		CSLALL::HENDERSON	It will be worth it all	`Thu Apr 14 1994 16:43`	8
	Amen!