Conference yukon::christian_v7

Certainly if making the promise was an error, because keeping it would
lead to sin, breaking it is the only proper course.

/john

�                            -< This one is obvious >-

� Certainly if making the promise was an error, because keeping it would
� lead to sin, breaking it is the only proper course.

Not so.  A promise is a promise, before the LORD.  It is not so easily 
reversible.  Joshua was forbidden to make a treaty with anyone in the 
Promised Land, but was tricked into making a treaty with the Gibeonites, in 
Joshua 9, becuse he did not enquire of the LORD.  Having made the treaty - 
a serious commitment, which was against God's explicit command - he could 
not break it (to the discontent of the Israelites).

This was considered so binding by the LORD, that a later attempt by Saul to
wipe out the Gibeonites brought famine when Israel was back in fellowship 
(1 Samuel 21:1).

Now a promise committing to sin is another matter.  But promises should not
be entered into lightly, as the Gibeonite incident shows. 

							Andrew 

�    Is it ever Biblical to break a promise?
�    If so, what are the conditions? (and the scriptures to back it up)

I take by 'promise', you mean something a solemn commitment, as would have 
been referred to as a vow.  There is a spectrum of intent covered by this,
right down to expression of a wish, which is not expected to be fulfilled
by speaker or hearer.  I presume you refer to something towards the upper
end of the spectrum, for it to have any significance at all.  As such, our
words are heard by the LORD, and it is to Him that all vows are answerable.

The vows of a girl in her father's home are referred to in Numbers 30, and 
the responsibility of overriding them are taken by him, or, when she 
marries, by her husband.  It is represented as a non-trivial matter.

One of the most solemn vows / promises we can make is that of marriage.  
The undoing of that vow is divorce.  While God 'hates divorce' (Malachi 
2:16), it still exists under the Mosaic law, as a severing of a God-created 
unity (Matthew 19:1-9), permitted because of the weakness of mankind, and 
the hardness of their hearts.

I would conclude that if a promise proves difficult to keep, it is better 
to suffer in keeping it than to treat it as easily disposable, in terms of 
spiritual integrity.

							Andrew

I'm with Andrew on this.  I think the promise stuff is taken so seriously
that Jesus told us to let our yes be yes and our no be no.  In other
words, "promises are serious business and you guys are going around
promising what you can't deliver."

God also demonstrates the value in a promise when he swears by Himself.
He swaers by Himself because there is no authority higher to which He
can attach His promise to be binding.  So we know that when God makes
a promise, it is assured.

When we make a promise, most of us swear by our own integrity ("I'm as
good as my word").  Some people swear on their descendants, or the temple
because it adds weight to the intent of the promise maker.  But foolishly,
it also binds some to that promise, oath, vow where one may have done
better and suffered less in failure by letting their yes be yes, and
their no be no.

MM

    The following passage comes to my mind:
    
Psalms 15:1 LORD, who shall abide in thy tabernacle? who shall dwell 
    in thy holy hill? 
  2 He that walketh uprightly, and worketh righteousness, and 
    speaketh the truth in his heart. 
  3 He that backbiteth not with his tongue, nor doeth evil to his 
    neighbour, nor taketh up a reproach against his neighbour. 
  4 In whose eyes a vile person is contemned; but he honoureth them 
*   that fear the LORD. He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth  *
*   not.                                                                *
  5 He that putteth not out his money to usury, nor taketh reward 
    against the innocent. He that doeth these things shall never be 
    moved. 
    
    
    Mark L.

    I believe God takes promises very seriously... I surrendered my life to
    be a missionary when I was 16 years old and I really believe that was
    God's call on my life.  Since I responded to the call and then chose to
    rebel and do my own thing, I've seen God's judgement hand in my life..
    but loving judgment, not condemnation, but chastening...
    
    

    what about the story of David, Nabal, and Abigail in I Sam 25?
    I've never been quite sure what to make of it...
    
    synopsis:
    Nabal refuses to give David food, tho David and his men protected
    Nabal's flocks.  David gets upset and swears to kill everyone in
    Nabal's household.  Just then, Abigail, Nabal's wife, arrives with food
    and begs forgiveness and David does nothing to Nabal & Co.  God later
    strikes Nabal dead, and David takes Abigail for his wife.

    Well, I'd say in that case, David swore to Nabal's hurt, and not his
    own. :-)  David recognized that he had spoken rashly in anger, and that
    the Lord had sent Abigail to keep him from shedding blood that he
    shouldn't have.

    In this case David did make a vow, then?
    so you're saying that David did then break his vow? but since it was rash
    and spoken in anger, it doesn't count?
    
    Something else interesting: the Lord led him to break his vow?
    
    so then is there a differentiation between considered vows
    (unbreakable), versus vows taken in the heat of the moment (breakable if
    not acceptable,right,???[not sure what to put here])?
    
    (I'm considering promises and vows to be essentially the same thing,
    but vow is quicker to type... :-)

    One key seems to be whether the vow is contrary to God's commandments. 
    In David's case his vow was to kill, taking the law into his own hands,
    so to speak.  Another case, since marriage has already been mentioned,
    is in Ezra 10, where Israel has taken "strange wives of the people of
    the land".  This is in direct contradiction to God's commandment when
    they were brought into the land.  But to keep the commandment to God
    they had to break the vow to their wives.  In doing so, v 3 says, they
    made a covenant with God to put away (divorce) their wives and the
    children by those wives.
    
    Kent
    

Genesis 24:8  And if the woman will not be willing to follow thee, then thou
shalt be clear from this my oath: only bring not my son thither again.

Genesis 24:41  Then shalt thou be clear from this my oath, when thou comest to
my kindred; and if they give not thee one, thou shalt be clear from my oath.

Genesis 26:3  Sojourn in this land, and I will be with thee, and will bless
thee; for unto thee, and unto thy seed, I will give all these countries, and I
will perform the oath which I sware unto Abraham thy father;

Genesis 26:28  And they said, we saw certainly that the lord was with thee:
and we said, let there be now an oath betwixt us, even betwixt us and thee,
and let us make a covenant with thee;

Genesis 50:25  And Joseph took an oath of the children of Israel, saying, god
will surely visit you, and ye shall carry up my bones from hence.

Exodus 22:11  Then shall an oath of the Lord be between them both, that he
hath not put his hand unto his neighbours goods; and the owner of it shall
accept thereof, and he shall not make it good.

Leviticus 5:4  Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or
to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it
be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of
these.

Numbers 5:19  And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the
woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to
uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter
water that causeth the curse:

Numbers 5:21  Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing,
and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an
oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly
to swell;

Numbers 30:2  If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his
soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all
that proceedeth out of his mouth.

Numbers 30:10  And if she vowed in her husband's house, or bound her soul by a
bond with an oath;


Numbers 30:13  Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her
husband may establish it, or her husband may make it void.

Deuteronomy 7:8  But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep
the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out
with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the
hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Joshua 2:17  And the men said unto her, We will be blameless of this thine
oath which thou hast made us swear.

Joshua 2:20  And if thou utter this our business, then we will be quit of
thine oath which thou hast made us to swear.

Joshua 9:20  This we will do to them; we will even let them live, lest wrath
be upon us, because of the oath which we sware unto them.

Judges 21:5  And the children of Israel said, Who is there among all the
tribes of Israel that came not up with the congregation unto the LORD? For
they had made a great oath concerning him that came not up to the LORD to
Mizpeh, saying, He shall surely be put to death.

1Samuel 14:26  And when the people were come into the wood, behold, the honey
dropped; but no man put his hand to his mouth: for the people feared the oath.
 27  But Jonathan heard not when his father charged the people with the oath:
wherefore he put forth the end of the rod that was in his hand, and dipped it
in an honeycomb, and put his hand to his mouth; and his eyes were enlightened.
 28  Then answered one of the people, and said, Thy father straitly charged
the people with an oath, saying, Cursed be the man that eateth any food this
day. And the people were faint.

2Samuel 21:7  But the king spared Mephibosheth, the son of Jonathan the son
of Saul, because of the LORD'S oath that was between them, between David and
Jonathan the son of Saul.

1Kings 2:43  Why then hast thou not kept the oath of the LORD, and the
commandment that I have charged thee with?

1Kings 8:31  If any man trespass against his neighbour, and an oath be laid
upon him to cause him to swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this
house:

1Kings 18:10  As the LORD thy God liveth, there is no nation or kingdom,
whither my lord hath not sent to seek thee: and when they said, He is not
there; he took an oath of the kingdom and nation, that they found thee not.

2Kings 11:4  And the seventh year Jehoiada sent and fetched the rulers over
hundreds, with the captains and the guard, and brought them to him into the
house of the LORD, and made a covenant with them, and took an oath of them in
the house of the LORD, and shewed them the king's son.

1Chronicles 16:16  Even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his
oath unto Isaac;

2Chronicles 6:22  If a man sin against his neighbour, and an oath be laid
upon him to make him swear, and the oath come before thine altar in this hou
se;

2Chronicles 15:15  And all Judah rejoiced at the oath; for they had sworn with
all their heart, and sought him with their whole desire; and he was foun d of
them; and the Lord gave them rest round about.

Nehemiah 5:12  Then said they, We will restore them, and will require nothing
of them; so will we do as thou sayest. Then I called the priests, and took an
oath of them, that they should do according to this promise.

Nehemiah 10:29  They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a
curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the
servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of the LORD our
Lord, and his judgments and his statutes;

Psalms 105:9  Which covenant he made with Abraham, and his oath unto Isaac;

Ecclesiastes 8:2  I counsel thee to keep the king's commandment, and that in
regard of the oath of God.

Ecclesiastes 9:2  All things come alike to all: there is one event to the
righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the
unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the
good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath.

Jeremiah 11:5  That I may perform the oath which I have sworn unto your
fathers, to give them a land flowing with milk and honey, as it is this day.
Then answered I, and said, So be it, O LORD.

Ezekiel 16:59  For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will even deal with thee as thou
hast done, which hast despised the oath in breaking the covenant.

Ezekiel 17:13  And hath taken of the king's seed, and made a covenant with
him, and hath taken an oath of him: he hath also taken the mighty of the land:

Ezekiel 17:16  As I live, saith the Lord GOD, surely in the place where the
king dwelleth that made him king, whose oath he despised, and whose covenant
he brake, even with him in the midst of Babylon he shall die.

Ezekiel 17:18  Seeing he despised the oath by breaking the covenant, when, lo,
he had given his hand, and hath done all these things, he shall not escape.
 19  Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; As I live, surely mine oath that he
hath despised, and my covenant that he hath broken, even it will I recompense
upon his own head.

Ezekiel 21:23  And it shall be unto them as a false divination in their sight,
to them that have sworn oaths: but he will call to remembrance the iniquity,
that they may be taken.

Daniel 9:11  Yea, all Israel have transgressed thy law, even by departing,
that they might not obey thy voice; therefore the curse is poured upon us, and
the oath that is written in the law of Moses the servant of God, because we
have sinned against him.

Habakkuk 3:9  Thy bow was made quite naked, according to the oaths of the
tribes, even thy word. Selah. Thou didst cleave the earth with rivers.

Zechariah 8:17  And let none of you imagine evil in your hearts against his
neighbour; and love no false oath: for all these are things that I hate, saith
the LORD.

Matthew 5:33  Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old
time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto the Lord thine
oaths:

Matthew 14:7  Whereupon he promised with an oath to give her whatsoever she
would ask.

Matthew 14:9  And the king was sorry: nevertheless for the oath's sake, and
them which sat with him at meat, he commanded it to be given her.

Matthew 26:72  And again he denied with an oath, I do not know the man.


Mark 6:26  And the king was exceeding sorry; yet for his oath's sake, and for
their sakes which sat with him, he would not reject her.

Luke 1:73  The oath which he sware to our father Abraham,

Acts 2:30  Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an
oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would
raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Acts 23:21  But do not thou yield unto them: for there lie in wait for him of
them more than forty men, which have bound themselves with an oath, that they
will neither eat nor drink till they have killed him: and now are they ready,
looking for a promise from thee.

Hebrews 6:16  For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for
confirmation is to them an end of all strife.
 17  Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise
the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:

Hebrews 7:20  And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
 21  (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by
him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest
for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)

Hebrews 7:28  For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but
the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is
consecrated for evermore.

James 5:12  But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven,
neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and
your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.


Number of occurances of search:  oath  -  57.

More to study...


Numbers 30:2  If a man vow a vow unto the LORD, or swear an oath to bind his
soul with a bond; he shall not break his word, he shall do according to all
that proceedeth out of his mouth.
  3  If a woman also vow a vow unto the LORD, and bind herself by a bond,
being in her father's house in her youth;
  4  And her father hear her vow, and her bond wherewith she hath bound her
soul, and her father shall hold his peace at her; then all her vows shall
stand, and every bond wherewith she hath bound her soul shall stand.
  5  But if her father disallow her in the day that he heareth; not any of
her vows, or of her bonds wherewith she hath bound her soul, shall stand: and
the LORD shall forgive her, because her father disallowed her.
  6  And if she had at all an husband, when she vowed, or uttered ought out
of her lips, wherewith she bound her soul;
  7  And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her in the day that he
heard it: then her vows shall stand, and her bonds wherewith she bound her
soul shall stand.
  8  But if her husband disallowed her on the day that he heard it; then he
shall make her vow which she vowed, and that which she uttered with her lips,
wherewith she bound her soul, of none effect: and the LORD shall forgive her.
  9  But every vow of a widow, and of her that is divorced, wherewith they
have bound their souls, shall stand against her.
 10  And if she vowed in her husband's house, or bound her soul by a bond
with an oath;
 11  And her husband heard it, and held his peace at her, and disallowed her
not: then all her vows shall stand, and every bond wherewith she bound her
soul shall stand.
 12  But if her husband hath utterly made them void on the day he heard them;
then whatsoever proceeded out of her lips concerning her vows, or concerning
the bond of her soul, shall not stand: her husband hath made them void; and
the LORD shall forgive her.
 13  Every vow, and every binding oath to afflict the soul, her husband may
establish it, or her husband may make it void.
 14  But if her husband altogether hold his peace at her from day to day;
then he establisheth all her vows, or all her bonds, which are upon her: he
confirmeth them, because he held his peace at her in the day that he heard
them.

*THIS* one I have trouble with - anyone care to comment?

Judges 11:30  And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt
without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
 31  Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house
to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be
the LORD'S, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.
 32  So Jephthah passed over unto the children of Ammon to fight against
them; and the LORD delivered them into his hands.
 33  And he smote them from Aroer, even till thou come to Minnith, even
twenty cities, and unto the plain of the vineyards, with a very great
slaughter. Thus the children of Ammon were subdued before the children of
Israel.
 34  And Jephthah came to Mizpeh unto his house, and, behold, his daughter
came out to meet him with timbrels and with dances: and she was his only
child; beside her he had neither son nor daughter.
 35  And it came to pass, when he saw her, that he rent his clothes, and
said, Alas, my daughter! thou hast brought me very low, and thou art one of
them that trouble me: for I have opened my mouth unto the LORD, and I cannot
go back.
 36  And she said unto him, My father, if thou hast opened thy mouth unto the
LORD, do to me according to that which hath proceeded out of thy mouth;
forasmuch as the LORD hath taken vengeance for thee of thine enemies, even of
the children of Ammon.
 37  And she said unto her father, Let this thing be done for me: let me
alone two months, that I may go up and down upon the mountains, and bewail my
virginity, I and my fellows.
 38  And he said, Go. And he sent her away for two months: and she went with
her companions, and bewailed her virginity upon the mountains.
 39  And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her
father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew
no man. And it was a custom in Israel,
 40  That the daughters of Israel went yearly to lament the daughter of
Jephthah the Gileadite four days in a year.

    re: Markem's troubling passage
    >anyone care to comment?
    I have trouble with it too.
    :-)
    
    This one seems to be recorded as this is what happened without any
    coloring of right or wrong.  I am unclear as to if he killed/sacrificed
    her, or merely caused to be celibate for the rest of her life.
    
    In hindsight, it seems clearly foolish.  And to go against the command
    to not sacrifice our children.
    
    other comments?

    I'll get more detail from home but I seem to recall the Bible shool 
    explanation going something like this:
    
    God would not cause or allow Jephthah to break God's law in sacrificing
    his daughter.  However, the vow was made and Scripture says that the
    vow was kept.  The key seems to be in verse 39 which qualifies the
    statement "did to her according to his vow" with "and she knew no man". 
    The explanation continues that the daughter was put away never knowing
    a man, essentially ending Jephthah's line since he had no other
    children and this fulfilled the vow.
    
    There was more to it but this is all I remember.  It's not like I talk
    about this all the time.
    
    Kent
    

    It's funny how we can miss something that is right in front of our
    faces.  "and she knew no man."  Thanks much for clearing this up.
    
    Mark

    tho he then did *not* fulfill his vow, as he vowed to sacrifice as a
    burnt offering (11:31)
    it would seem he instead altered his vow to be more in line with God's
    laws.... 
    interesting...

Re .14, Hi Mark, 

I preached on the Jephthah event some years ago...  The idea that his vow
was commuted to lifelong virginity for his daughter is mentioned in some
references, but is not given much credence as it was not a custom practised
until much later.  The point of the two months mourning was that she was to
die while still a virgin - without leaving offspring.  Mere celibacy would
hardly merit the annual commemoration of 11:40, and the burnt offering was
very much the father's deed - :39. 

In considering the inconsistency of Jephthah's vow and its fulfillment,
bear in mind the state of Israel at thet time.  Israel was spiritually
leaderless, and heading away from God towards the state of Judges 21:25.
Jephthah himself was an outcast, leading a band of brigands (Judges
11:3..7).  It seems that his awareness of acceptable worship was severely
tainted by contact with the practices of the surrounding nations. His 
awareness of the history of settling the land was good (Judges 11:14-27 -
cf Deuteronomy 2&3), but his awareness of the law was not.  He apparently
made a gesture which he thought showed utmost gratitude to the LORD, but
failed to realise its significance, or the fact that for a person, there
was provision to buy it off (Leviticus 27:1-8).  

So in fact, he made a rash vow, but feared God enough to maintain it.  He
never realised that it was an unacceptable sacrifice.  [ I wonder what
would have happened if a pig had emerged from the house first - or
something else unacceptible because it was unclean... ].

The example to major on is that of his daughter, whose trust in the LORD 
was apparently great enough to accept death at her father's hand because
she was promised to the LORD.  The mutual trust here is amazing - Jephthah
trusted her to return after the 2 months, which she did, knowing what the
outcome would be.  Shall not the Judge of earth do right - even beyond
death!  *We* have Jesus' example, as well as His blood, demonstrating his
power beyond the death barrier.  Jephthah's daughter had no such
experience. I believe that she must have been given special grace, and it
is she who comes to mind in Hebrews 11:32, rather than her father, as being
of great faith.  Though he did win a great battle through faith where the
leaders of Israel quaked... 


In the case of David's rash oath concerning Nabal - that's one that has
often exercised my mind.  Like the Jews of Acts 23:12, though they were not
following the LORD, I wonder how the oath rebounded upon them... 
The same oath is used by Ruth, in Ruth 1:17, Eli in 1 Samuel 3:17, by Saul 
(confirming his oath even if it implied Jonathan's death, as it turned out 
to...where the army successfully pleaded for his life) 14:44, Jonathan's 
oath to David in 1 Samuel 20:13, Abner, in 2 Samuel 3:9, David again, in 2
Samuel 3:9, for a fast which he seems to have kept!, his shortlived promise 
to Amasa, in 2 Samuel 19:13, cut off by Amasa's demise.

And how about 1 Kings 2:23, where king Solomon uses this oath to decree the 
death of Adonijah, revering his apparent earlier promise to his mother in 
verse 20...

Jezebel takes it up in 1 Kings 19:2, scares Elijah out of his wits, but 
fails to fulfil it...
Ben-Hadad makes a rash one he can't keep in 1 Kings 20:10
King Joram similarly blows it in 2 Kings 6:21

Sounds like a common form of oath, which is sometimes used more lightly 
than it should be...

In the 1 Samuel 25 case, it would seem that Abigail's words make David
realise that his oath was unjust and selfish (:33), particularly bearing in
mind that it was because of the blood shed under his reign that David was
not allowed to build the temple.  I could not say that this in any way
excuses him from the oath, but it may possibly have been 'covered' by a
sacrifice, as the LORD Himself communted it to the death of the one
offender - Nabal. 

Kent
.10�    One key seems to be whether the vow is contrary to God's commandments. 

Not directly - the Gibeonites demonstrate the significance of a vow, even
when taken against the LORD's command.  However in such a case, there may
be another route to be found; a way back to God's presence and approval,
rather than being bound to evil. 

My 2� escalated... ;-} 

						God bless
							Andrew

More confused.

�      <<< Note 408.20 by TOKNOW::METCALFE "Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers" >>>

� More confused.

By ?

I need to study more closely than I have time (to absorb) at the moment.
It currently presents itself as a troubling passage for me.

The Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible - Spiros Zodhiates - says the following
about Jepththah's Vow:

  "This vow of Jephthah has caused much concern for many Bible scholars.
If no other considerations are brought into the discussion, the language
of this passage would naturally lead one to believe that Jephthah 
actually did offer his daughter as a sacrafice to the Lord.  Most 
conservative commentators, on the contrary, hold that Jephthah did not
actually put his daighter to death, but dedicated her to the service of 
the Lord.

  "There are two major areas of discussion relative to the vow.  The 
first deals with whether Jephthah actually intended a human sacrifice
when he made the vow.  Some would attempt to prove by the choice of words 
used in the vow that he did intend human sacrifice.  However, it must be
pointed out that this was only one of the possibilities according to the 
usage of the word 'whatsoever.'  Otherwise, if he had intended a human
sacrifice, why would he have been so surprised and distraught when his
daughter became the object of his vow (v. 35).  Also, Jephthah knew the
Law well enough that he could not have been ignorant of the fact that 
God did not allow human sacrifice.  Furthermore, he would have
been doubly guilty since her had no other children, and he knew that
sacrifices to Jehovah were to be exclusively of the male gender (v.34)
Jephthah's apprehension concerning the coming battle with the children 
of Ammon caused him to word his vow hastily and leave open the possibility
of human sacrifice.

  "The second problem us whether Jephthah actually did take his own 
daughter's life.  It would have been next to impossible for Jephthah 
to have found a priest who would perform such a sacrifice.  The idea
expressed by conservative scholars is that if this were true, Jepththah
would not have been included in the 'heroes of faith' (Hebrews 11:32).
Furthermore, would it be proper to commend Jephthah if he had broken
God's laws in such a serious matter?  To say that his daughter spent her 
last two months of life up in the mountains with her friends rather than
with her mourning father would have been peculiar.  In addition to this, 
why is it that she bemoans her virginity rather than her short life?
The phrase 'and she knew no man' would be meaningless if her life was
taken.  It would seem more logical to assume that she was to be wholly
given to the service of the Lord where she must continue her virginity.
 
  "The most sensible explanation of these events then would be that Jephthah
did not actuall y perform a human sacrifice because he knew and obeyed God's 
laws even though, according to his orignial vow, this would have been the 
result.  The prhase stating that he 'did with her according to his vow'
does not actually state that he took her life, but that Jephthah dedicated
her to the Lord."

From Dake (whatever you may think)

Jephthah made known to his daughter the vow he made concerning her, 
which he could not fail to keep (v 35).  The Law would not have allowed
him to sacrifice her as a burnt offering.  Not only were human beings 
forbidden to be sacrifices thus but all animals other than ox, bullock, 
lamb, ram, goat, heifer, pigeon, or turtledove.  Only these were 
acceptible to God.
  The Law of Vows (Lev. 27) provided that persons, beasts, and other 
things could be offered to God for holy uses even though all could not
be used for burnt offerings.  Furthermore, these could be redeemed with 
money, if the vow was a simple one, and the amount given to the priests
and Levites (Lev. 27:1-25).  Other things, as the firstborn of clean 
animals, all tithes, and anything dedicated to the Lord as a *devoted thing*
could not be redeemed.  Devoted things were to remain in the service of 
God (Lev 27:26-29).  It was this nature of vow that Jephthah made to
Him, so he devoted his daughter to God by pertual viginity - this he was
under obligation to do (v 35).

The daughter of Jephthah was willing to fulfill her part in the vow because
Jehovah had given Israel victory over the Ammonites (v 36).  She even made 
some terms which were accepted by her father (v 37).

Her request was that she be given 2 months to bewail her virginity with
other daughters of Israel.  This fact alone proves that it was not a question
of her being offered illegally as a sacrifice to Jehovah.  She was simply to
remain a virgin all her days, which in itself is a great sacrifice
and a calamity in Israel.  It meant that she could never carry out her part 
in the life of Israel, keeping her own family alive in the nation.  Thus
Jephthah's family was completely cut off, for he had no other children
to carry on his name (v 34).  She was devoted to the tabernacle service as
a servant throughout life.  That there were a number of such consecrated 
servants is clear from the fact that after the Midianite war certain virgins
were to be devoted to God as the Lord's part (Num. 31:15-40).

----

It goes on to mention the "she knew no man" as further proof of fulfillment
of the vow.

Hi Mark,

Do you enter the commentary extracts as examples, or as expressing a stance 
which you feel you are approaching?  As a stimulus to discussion?  The 
exegesis is rather poor, in bending the text to support its view :

� That there were a number of such consecrated servants is clear from the
� fact that after the Midianite war certain virgins were to be devoted to God
� as the Lord's part (Num. 31:15-40). 

That is blatant misrepresentation.  The commentary implies that the passage 
supports perpetual virginity as an acceptable, and commonly recognised and 
practised form of dedication to the LORD.

In fact, the passage does not refer to perpetual virgins, nor to dedication 
to extended celibacy.  It actually refers to the destruction of the 
Midianites for their attacks on Israel, most particularly upon Israel's 
faithfulness to God.  They tried to call down a curse via Balaam, which God 
averted (Numbers 22-24).  So (at Balaam's advice - Numbers 31:16) they
tried a more subtle attack.  The Midianite women tried to seduce Israelite
men, involving the sacrifice to heathen gods (Baal, in particular) as a
part of the seduction (Numbers 23:1-3).  This gross sin had to be purged
from Israel by death (Numbers 23:4-18), before the Midianites could be
punished. 

When Israel then had to kill all the Midianites, this included the women,
who had been used to oppose the LORD.  In fact, Moses underlines this in 
Numbers 31:15-17, when he finds that the army has been diffident to carry 
out the command.  The reason that Midianite virgins were spared was because
they obviously had not been involved in the seduction of Israel.  They were 
not spared on any condition of perpetual virginity.  Nowhere is there any
suggestion of this.  In fact, there is an implication in verse 18 that they
were available for Israelites to marry (as per Deuteronomy 21:10-14).  They
were spared because they were 'civilians', rather than 'combatants', as the
other women had become. 

� virgins were to be devoted to God as the Lord's part (Num. 31:15-40). 
This is the key misrepresentation.  A proportion of all the spoils of 
battle was assigned to the priests, as assisting in the LORD's work.  
Servants in this position vcertainly married - there are various laws 
associated with the situation, and without it, the Gibeonites would have 
died out rather soon....

Such a misrepresentation throws the stance of the commentary on this issue,
and its integrity as a whole into doubt, rather than supporting it. 

						God bless
							Andrew

>Do you enter the commentary extracts as examples, or as expressing a stance 
>which you feel you are approaching?  As a stimulus to discussion?  The 
>exegesis is rather poor, in bending the text to support its view :
>
>� That there were a number of such consecrated servants is clear from the
>� fact that after the Midianite war certain virgins were to be devoted to God
>� as the Lord's part (Num. 31:15-40). 

I merely entered them for what another has had to say on the particular texts
and hold no position on the commentators.  However, perhaps you should have
pointed out more clearly which commentator had the poor exegesis (Dake).

I haven't read the whole of your arguments in .25 and so don't have a problem
with what you have said.  ;-)  In fact, I welcome scrutiny of any material
as it pertains to the Bible.  I think you know that; and if you don't, then
I don't know what to think.

My purpose for entering those was to solicit input from other commentators,
to get a more complete perspective on how people viewed this passage.

Now, I'll go read your other comments. 

Mark

P.S.  Did you have any problem with Zodhiates? (.23)  If so, why, 
and if not, why not?

Having read your comments, I don't have a problem with what you have
said.  I would verify it, if I wanted to defend of deny Dake's commentary,
which I do not, any longer.  It may be questionable that I even supply
his commentary on such matters especially after being suspect to wild
ideas (would they be "blantant misrepresentations"? or woeful misunderstadings?),
but I find it sufficient to use from time to time, with the salt grains 
added, to perhaps add a perspective, and to see how he stacks up with 
some more orthodox commentators.  Perhaps I'll write a disclaimer from
now on to each posting that is like putting extra salt with one's order of 
burger and fries.   Something like this:

=========
Dake is not the best of commentators.  In fact, some people have strong 
objections to hs scholarship, including more reputable Christian organizations.
The commentary is provided for perspective.  As always, "study to show 
thyself approved" and don't take *anyones* word for it (including mine)
until it is tested by Scripture and the Holy Spirit.
=========

Sufficient?  Feel free to point me to this note in future occurences of 
my laziness... and forgive me.

Mark 

Hi Mark,

I was curious about your selection of commentary material, and presumed you
must have scanned it in as 'bulk information' rather than typed it in as
'considered input'. 

If I seemed to come down rather heavy on Dake (nothing personal intended,
of course!), it was because I felt the original text had a clear meaning,
which was misrepresented in the commentary, purely to support a man's
perspective.  I felt that the commentator had no excuse for that.  It
appears to me to be a "blatant misrepresentation" rather than a "woeful
misunderstanding", though that is a heavy accusation, and I'd be glad to
find a loophole which rather put him in the latter class.  And sure, it 
doesn't invalidate him as a commentator - but it does make me look more 
carefully before accepting his evidence.

Generally in here we're interested in each other's perspective, as much as
in that of [random] commentators in general, so it would be helpful to
distinguish between replies entered in suport of a view one wishes to
support and defend, and those which are merely entered as beckground
information. Otherwise people can spend a lot of time answering questions
no-one is asking... 

Slightly irrelevant, but in a works Bible study about 15 years back,
someone misunderstood Psalm 51:5 [in sin did my mother conceive me] to
imply that David was born out of wedlock, and the trouble we had to
disabuse him of that position... !

� Sufficient?  Feel free to point me to this note in future occurences of 
No need to feel any concern about it!  Your eloquence is appreciated ;-)
And [to repeat] I didn't mean to aim anything personally.  My purpose in 
replying was to continue exploring the Word of truth together (both the
Bible, and the LORD) - as I perceive is the aim of each of us in
participating. 

� P.S.  Did you have any problem with Zodhiates? (.23)  If so, why, 
� and if not, why not?

I didn't feel that Zodhiates had much to offer.  Most of his input was
arguing the conservative perspective from men's arguments, and I perceived
it as woolly, rather than well founded in this instance.  If you'd like me
to go through it line-by-line, I will, but it contains significantly little
meat, so is likely to end up wordy rather than constructive. 

						God bless, bro
								Andrew