Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Our pastor does not care to know each parishioners tithing amount.  He
    believes that he needs to bring God's desires and commandments
    regarding tithing to put the desire in our hearts and let God lead us.
    
    Our church (Trinity Baptist Church, Concord. N.H.) is growing leaps and
    bounds, both spiritually and sq footage wise.   We believe that God has
    blessed us because we try and listen to his desires thru prayer rather
    than the desires of man.
    
    Just one opinion
    
    regards 
    Peggy Dea
    
    

    My last church did, every member pledged a certain amount, and each
    quarter you were given an update of the % you were off.
    
    These records are available to the Pastor.  He does not know what the
    income of the members are though, so he can't determine if you give
    1/10 or more or less.
    
    I don't know if he spends any time with this information, I suspect he
    only does at pledge time, where they pick members who have tithed + for
    several years to give their testomony.  Other than that I don't feel he
    had any real interest.
    
    The church I attend now, only the accounting firm, knows how much each
    member gives for the tax purposes.  The information is not available to
    the church staff.
    
    I don't have a problem with it, as long as the pastor doesn't use this
    information for his own purposes.
    
    I am more concerned with other staff members who have other interest
    getting the information, like making and selling a telephone solicitors
    list of people who are known to be generous to charities. 
    
    I feel this happened at our last church, all the sudden after living
    here for 4 years, we start getting 3 or 4 calls a week from every
    charity you ever heard of.  I have no proof, but for some reason all
    these charities got my name at the same time, and seem to think I am a
    charitable person.  I tithe, give special love offerings through the
    church, but never to independant charities.
    
    Sparky

    Matthew 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be
        seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is
        in heaven.
      2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet
        before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the
        streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you,
        They have their reward.
      3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy
        right hand doeth:
      4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in
        secret himself shall reward thee openly.
    
    Where I fellowship, there is a box (as the New Testament seems to
    discourage public offering collection) for the saints to deposit their
    offerings.  If someone new comes and writes a check, we request that
    they make their future offerings in cash, because of the above
    scriptures.
    
    Mark L.

    that's interesting Markel....
    
    I know of people who would think it not wise to carry around their
    tithe in cash for any length of time... (namely me and my parents, as
    they were robbed at gunpoint in our backyard, because they had seen
    that my dad had been carrying a large amount of cash (more than usual).
    
    seems an interesting dilemma... 
    
    I write checks, and I sometimes wonder if the counters pay attention to
    the amounts... the church has been greatly blessed with giving usually
    over the budget...
    
    tho I hope your counters are honest!
    There would be no way of knowing about skimming... (I am NOT making
    suggestions about your fellowship, just pondering the pros and cons a
    bit...)
    
    tricky question, for me, at least...

    Well, a few of the scriptures that we take for direction:

    2Kings 12:9 But Jehoiada the priest took a chest, and bored a hole in
        the lid of it, and set it beside the altar, on the right side as
        one cometh into the house of the LORD: and the priests that kept
        the door put therein all the money that was brought into the house
        of the LORD.
     10 And it was so, when they saw that there was much money in the
        chest, that the king's scribe and the high priest came up, and
        they put up in bags, and told the money that was found in the
        house of the LORD.
     11 And they gave the money, being told, into the hands of them that
        did the work, that had the oversight of the house of the LORD: and
        they laid it out to the carpenters and builders, that wrought upon
        the house of the LORD,

     15 Moreover they reckoned not with the men, into whose hand they
        delivered the money to be bestowed on workmen: for they dealt
        faithfully.

    I recognize that the Old Testament is not an absoulte guide for the New
    Testament church, but the above passage gives us some good principals
    concerning our giving and dealing with the gifts that God's people
    give.
    
    In the case of our fellowship, the money is counted by the leadership
    and dispersed to the needs of the Lord's work.  I believe that those
    involved are faithful men.  (I'd trust any of them to hold my wallet
    for me. :-) )
    
    Mark L.

IRS requirements will, beginning with the 1994 tax year, require you to
have a receipt for donations to any organizaton to which you gave more
than $250.

The receipt is required to state whether you received any benefit in
return for the donation, and its value.

/john

    I think only the treasurer needs to know this information.  I know
    pastors that refuse to look at the books because it will affect how
    they treat members of the flock.  I don't even think I would attend a
    church where the pastor made a point to review the books.

    So, don't tell the IRS about it.

>    So, don't tell the IRS about it.

What, and if you give your church $4,000 in a year, you then give the
government an extra $1000 in taxes by losing the deduction?

/john

    re: Markel
    yeah, that's one of the passages that came to mind...
    
    if you don't mind my asking, do you report tithes to the IRS?
    I thought you needed some sort of form...
    (being new to this IRS tax thing... doin' 'em for the first time myself
    this year...)
    

    I'm giving for the Lord, not for a tax deduction.  (And to be sure, I'm
    not implying that you are doing it for the deduction, John).  However,
    this is almost invariably the first thing that comes up over this
    issue: "What about my tax deduction?"  Well, we (our gathering) has no
    dealings with the government -- no tax exempt status, etc.  We want
    *nothing* to do with the government.  As soon as they "give" you
    something (tax exempt status), you can be sure that they will be
    getting something (such as control) in return.
    
    So, I give my gifts to the Lord and my taxes to the government.
    
    Mark L.

    Turbo Tax tells me the government keeps an eye on those that have
    "donations" over 10% of their AGI.

    My pastor refuses to know who is tithing what amount, however he does
    get tithing reports that will enable him to see what percentage of the
    church is possibly tithing...
    
    example
    
    566 Givers recorded in 1993
    39 of the Givers gave over 50% of the offerings
    One family gave the entire year $5.00....
    
    When you look at the numbers without the faces you can see that over
    50% of the members are not tithing [we have more then 566 members] :-)
    
    It's very sad that God's folks don't understand the importance of this
    gift... without it the church cannot do God's work.  Oh yeah, my church
    also gives a very detailed budget and spending report to each member. 
    the Salaries of the Pastor and the Staff are included on this report...
    
    And you know my Pastor doesn't make very much, but he tithed over 50%
    of his earnings last year.... 50%... pretty incredible.. he lays his
    accounting open to all eyes, though he won't look at others.

re: tax deduction

My dealing with the tax deduction is simple:  If it's there, and legitimate,
and already recorded as a charitable deduction, I'll take the deduction.  I
have no need to give the government any more money if I don't have to.

But the question whether an item is deductible has nothing to do with whether
I give it.  AFTER I've decided to give it, then I'll see if it's deductible.

I think taking your tithes as deductions is only a problem if you start to
use its deductibility as a factor in you decision of whether or not to tithe.

Paul

    << Turbo Tax tells me the government keeps an eye on those that have
    <<"donations" over 10% of their AGI.
    
    My wife and I have been in this catagory for the 8 years we have been
    married, and each of us individually since before that, and neither of
    us have been audited, and always filled out the long form ourselves.
    
    Just lucky maybe, or maybe they look for aberations not consistancy.
    
    Sparky

In my church a lot of folk covenant their gifts in order to let the church 
(as a charitable organisation) obtain the tax that had been paid on the 
offering.  There are some who feel that this violates the privacy clause, 
so do not use this method.  there are others who feel that the government is 
an equally needy charitable organisation, so they'd rather give each the 
maximum.  For those who use the covenant method with tax reclaim, a 
receipt is required (or some form of proof of payment), in order for the 
church to get their tax refund.

The tithe is often held to be the commitment under the Old Covenant  
(interesting, when it supported the Levitical priesthood, who might be 
expected to form about 1/12th the people).  Even then, there were also 
voluuntary gifts and sacrifices etc in addition.  Under the New Covenenant 
of love, it's all His, starting from the tithe...  Given to us to 
administer.  As are all the other resources of our lives...



								Andrew

    
    What Paul said.  Let's get back to should your pastor know or not and
    why?  
    
     Thanks

    Not taking an allowable tax deduction makes me wonder if you are being
    a good steward.  Certainly, the deduction allows you to give more to
    the charity.  Not registering as a charitable non-profit organization
    takes more money away from Christ's work.  Is this good stewardship?
    Why pay taxes that could be used to relieve suffering, spread the word
    of God, heal the sick, etc.??

    Okay Dan,
    
    He doesn't know and the why is because he's human and doesn't need to
    have his *opinion* of others reflect on how much money they give the
    church.  He counsels for free, he ministers for free, he Pastors the
    church for whatever the church decides to give him [he has never set
    his salary or requested an amount in 18 years].
    
    Money is one of the evils that God warns us as coming between ourselves
    and God.  My Pastor though has never judged an individual based on that
    criteria knows that human nature wars against the Spirit.
    
    Nancy

  Like some other pastors mentioned here, my pastor looks at the yearly report
then puts it away.  He won't during the year because of the temptation to
be influenced one way or another.  He does so at the end of the year almost
matter of factly; a report is prepared for him.  He will commment, usually
in January that he doesn't know how some of the people can survive on what
they make based on their tithe.  One dual-income family gave $10.00.
  He said, I don't need your money; never have, never will.  God certainly
does need your money; never had and never will.  We need to examine the 
response of tithing in our lives and why we give.
  Tithing is one (of many) indicators of your spiritual health.  The mark
of being like Christ is in giving - including our monetary resources.

----------

Interesting aside somewhat dealing with the right and left hands:
Jesus sat by the offering "plate" one day watching people put in their
money (the story of the widow's two mites).  Jesus was wacthing then
what is put in the plate and why.  How many of you think he isn't watching 
now?

On other thing is the story of Billy Graham when he was much younger plopped
a $10 in the plate, then immediately tried to withdraw it!  His wife slapped
his hand and asked "What are you doing?!"  "I meant to put in the $5 bill!"
he protested.  His wife replied, "I'm sure that to the Lord it was only a
$5 bill."  And she passed the plate on.  

(I love that story!)

Mark

>    Money is one of the evils that God warns us as coming between ourselves

Important nit:  "The LOVE of money is...."

    .21
    
    Thanks for knitting that lose thread. :-)

I always like that Billy Graham story too....  At least his wife didn't
insist on the $5 bill going into the plate as well, in the spirit of
Leviticus 27:10 ;-) 

								Andrew

    Regarding insisting that all donations be made in cash, and
    thereby rendering it (nearly) impossible to give the donor a
    receipt (or, obviously, for his check to act as one), precluding 
    taking a deduction for charitable contributions to the local body.
    
    It appears to me that this practice is probably in violation of
    Y'shua's injunction i Matthew 22:21b -
    
    	"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's,
    	 and to G_d the things that are G_d's"
    
    By precluding the donor from properly deducting the amount of his
    donation, the elders are unjustly and inappropriatelyforcing the 
    congregant to render to Caesar the things that are *NOT* Caesar's.
    Moreover, because this, in turn, reduces the donor's available cash,
    it could well preclude the donor from being able to give alms or other 
    offering that he might otherwise be able (and *want*) to give.
    Thereby, the second half of the injuction has been violated
    because of the restriction - the donor has been prevented from
    
    rendering "to G_d the things that are [or at least, *were*] G_d's".
    
    Thoughts?
    
    Brian

    what about the giving is blessed theory?
    if I give to God what He claims first(tithe), then will He not take
    care of the rest of my needs?
    just another wrench into the discussion..
    :-)

    Re: .24 (Brian)
    
>    Regarding insisting that all donations be made in cash, and
>    thereby rendering it (nearly) impossible to give the donor a
>    receipt (or, obviously, for his check to act as one), precluding 
>    taking a deduction for charitable contributions to the local body.
>    
>    It appears to me that this practice is probably in violation of
>    Y'shua's injunction i Matthew 22:21b -
>    
>    	"Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's,
>    	 and to G_d the things that are G_d's"
    
    If, in order to benefit from the allowance of a governmental tax
    deduction, it means a violation of the clear principle of giving in
    Matt. 6:3-4 ("But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what
    thy right hand doeth: That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father
    which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.), I leave it to
    you to decide which method is contrary to God's will.  Governmental
    convenience is never an allowance to go contrary to God's direction.  I
    render to God the things that are God's and to Caesar the thing's that
    are Caesar's, and do it without violating God's direction.
    
    I prefer to keep the matters of God's house as far away from the
    government as possible.  And that includes my telling the government
    how much I give to God.  Caesar has no say in God's house.  
    
    Mark L.

    re: last two
    
    I think both positions (to claim or not to claim on taxes) are valid.
    
    I also think it depends on how you are convicted (in your heart, as 
    to what you should do.)  Just because one feels one way and one feels
    another, doesn't make each necessarily wrong or right - it may be 
    wrong for person a, but not for person b, because God is dealing 
    with person a in that area.
    
    I personally claim charitable donations on my taxes - it is legal.
    That doesn't mean I would give less if I couldn't claim it - as someone
    else (Paul W.?) mentioned - I would still give the same because that's
    what God requires (obedience).  
    
    I think claiming it shows good stewardship of what God has entrusted
    to me - allowing me reimbursement of money paid to the government
    (taxes) that can now be used in God's work or possibly a personal
    blessing :-).  We cannot out give God!  When we tithe out of obedience
    and desire (heart attitude) making that a priority, God will bless
    us (and not only/necessarily financially).
    
    My $ .02-
    
    Karen
    

�    My $ .02-

		Was that the 10% of $ .20 ?

    Declaring on your taxes doesnot violate the injunction to be in secret. 
    Unless, you do not file taxes at all, so that no one can know how much
    money you have, which clearly would be a violation of God's direction.
    
    As for keeping God away from government, that is in my opinion the
    reason for the terrible situation in the U.S. today.  Since prayer was
    taken out of the schools in 1963, the SAT scores have plummeted.  We
    have a President that openly promotes homosexuals and their life-style. 
    I believe we need our God as close and as involved in government as
    possible.
    
    Finally, if you do not take the tax deduction, you will not have as
    much money to give or spend for necessities of life - that's fact,
    which puts you in conflict with being a good steward.
    
    For me,  "...that dog don't hunt...".

>    As for keeping God away from government, that is in my opinion the
>    reason for the terrible situation in the U.S. today.
    
    Just to be clear, I was not seeking to imply the above.  But I firmly
    believe in keeping secular government out of God's house.  To try to
    bend things or get some favor from the government inevitably will lead
    to compromise.
    
    Mark L.

    re: .30
    "To try to bend things or get some favor from the government inevitably
    will lead to compromise."  You are correct!  But, to use the fire
    department, or a police officer, or to take an allowable
    deduction...how does that compromise?  To lobby to get a larger
    deduction, that could lead to compromise.  
    
    Glad we both see the need to have a morally sound government...
    
    Daryl

    The compromise I see is that in order to meet the requirements of the
    government for a tax deduction, it is necessary to compromise the
    Lord's injunction that we do not let the left hand know what the right
    had is doing with regard to our giving.
    
    Mark L.

    .32
    
    Actually my Pastor does not claim his giving to the government... and
    he gave near 50% of his salary last year.  I believe his reasoning is
    because we are giving the Government information that they may wish to
    tap into for future taxes especially on the churches.
    
    There are lobbyists right now trying to change the tax exempt status of
    the church... 

    Our church is an English (Anglican) one located in France.  Whether our
    members give through our UK or French bank accounts, it's always
    possible to recoup at least part against tax.  We encourage our members
    to claim refunds and then to give that amount to the church in
    addition (in the UK tax system it happens automatically).  
    
    To disagree very politely with Markel, I think we do need to keep a
    close eye on what we give to our church, to make sure we're giving
    enough (i.e. sacrificially). I consider that the injunction about right
    hand and left hand is a matter of attitude, for which we need the Holy
    Spirit's healing and guidance.
    
    God bless,			Richard.

    Re: .35 (Richard E.)
    
>    To disagree very politely with Markel, I think we do need to keep a
>    close eye on what we give to our church, to make sure we're giving
>    enough (i.e. sacrificially).
    
    Hi Richard, 
    
    You should see Chicago today! ;-)
    
    I hope I never implied that we shouldn't be concerned and excercised in
    light of how much we are giving.  The scriptures indicate that we
    should give "Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let
    him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful
    giver." (2 Cor. 9:7)  To me, a "purposed heart" implies an exercise
    before the Lord.  However, I do believe that it should be between the
    individual (or couple, as appropriate) and the Lord.  Of course, I also
    believe that teaching as to the responsibility and excercise is
    appropriate to help the saints realize what the Word of God has to say
    on these matters.
    
    Mark L.

    Hi Mark
    
    You make me glad I'm in the (relative) warmth of the Cote d'Azur, even
    though the sun isn't shining today.
    
    Re: .36
    
    I entirely agree.
    
    Richard.