Conference yukon::christian_v7

>    Can we know the time of Christ's Second Coming?  I've read a few books


     No.  I don't have my Bible handy, but I do know that Jesus said that
     no man knows the hour.  While I certainly believe there is plenty to
     tell us that we could be near that time, I believe it is wrong to
     spend a great deal of time trying to nail down a day and time, while
     people all around us are in danger of spending an eternity in Hell.





        
>    So, what are your views on this?  Do you think God would warn us ahead

     about as much time as a "twinkling of an eye" takes.



    Jim

Ditto with Jim, but I have heard arguments that say that the season
may be known.  Jesus said that we know certain events are about to 
occur by the signs... buds on the trees, clouds in the west, etc.
Then Jesus proceeds in Matthew 24 to give us some signs to watch
for.

While I am hesistant to point to even a year (remember 88 reasons to
believe the Lord is coming back in 1988?) we have the signs and can
REMAIN WATCHFUL.

And in that twinkling, no one will be able to get ready. You gotta be ready.

MM

    Further dittos.  We can't know the day or hour (i.e., the exact time),
    but we are to be aware of the "season" -- the events taking place in
    the world, the attitudes of the society, etc.
    
    Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the 
        angels of heaven, but my Father only. 
     37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son
        of man be.
     42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
     
    Mark 13:32 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the 
        angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. 

    1Thessalonians 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye
        have no need that I write unto you.
      2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh
        as a thief in the night.
      3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden
        destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child;
        and they shall not escape.
      4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should
        overtake you as a thief.
    
    Mark L. 

    Another ditto.  The signs should be enough to tell you it's close and
    you better have your life together.

  Friend, will you be ready?

    Actually, I don't remember 88 reasons...etc, though this was
    mentioned in the book I read most recently.  The logic of this book is
    hard to dispute.  I don't think God would sneak up on His church,
    personally.  Though we don't know the day or the hour, can't we narrow
    the timing down to a 'season' or a year? 
    
    Any thoughts on the founding of Isreal?  This is supposed to be a sign
    of the last generation.  Even without naming a specific date, it would
    seem that the last generation started in 1947 (when God, via the UN,
    gave the command to restore Isreal).  
    
    Guess it's time to speed up the gettin' ready, eh?  
    
    Other interesting points to the end time prophesies is the argument of
    a pre-tribulation rapture vs. a later rapture.  The book gave good
    scriptural arguments to a post-tribulation rapture...as well as
    evidence of Jesus being born into His church at the same time the
    great tribulation  begins.  During
    these days, all men will make a knowledgeable choice between light and
    darkness, as the face of Christ will be obvious in the works of His
    people...Satan will also be granted more power during this time.  
    
    Well, one thing is certain, the world will be evangelized in a very
    powerful way during this time.  It would be both exciting and scary to
    live in this time of darkness.  Gives a whole new meaning to the words
    "Will you be ready?"
    
    -steve              

      Why hasn't Jesus returned?  Is that something we may know?
      Does He need to demonstrate something through His followers
      and is what He needs to demonstrate something that is up to
      _us_ to hasten (2 Peter 3:12) the coming of the Lord.  In other
      words, are we preventing God from returning?
    
                                                      Tony

>In other words, are we preventing God from returning?

No.

    I do'nt think we could prevent His coming if we consciously tried to. 
    I believe God had set the time since the beginning...it's all in the
    Bible.  Some prophesies were "sealed" until the last generation, as
    events happening in this generation give keys to setting a time frame
    of the Biblical prophesies.  Kinda like a puzzle.
    
    When it is time, He will come.  I believe He will show Himself in His
    church, for all the world to see.  What better witness to the world
    could there be than Christ being born into His church?  (I know He
    lives inside each one of us, but I think the 'birth' is a renewal for
    all of us during the end times...a renewal of spiritual strength that
    will be much needed- for us and for our witness to the world).
    
    It does say in the scriptures (I forget the exact place at the moment)
    that all men will make and informed choice in the end.  How much fairer
    could our Lord be?  The tribulations, I believe, are to wake up those
    who do not follow the Lord.  These terrible things, along with the
    powerful witmess of a Christ renewed church, will save multitudes of
    people.  
    
    We will do "greater works" than those who came before us (if we live
    during the tribulations).  To speculate on what this could mean, think
    about what the apostles did...
    
    Imagine the news stories on such events.  This would be one incredible
    witness to the world!
    
    Maybe I'm just a crazy man, but at the ripe old age of 27, I believe I
    will be here (God willing) during this time.  I think there is a lot of
    much needed character development that will take place in me, as well
    (though I'm trying hard to develope early  8^) ).
    
    Funny, but in SOAPBOX, I am a doomsayer by saying things will come to a
    head soon.  In here, I am an optemist.  8^)  
    
    -steve (the optemistic doomsayer)

      re: .8
    
        Mark...
    
               you're wrong.  The right answer is yes.
    
               But...that's ok!
    
                 ;-)
    
                                            God Bless,
    
                                            Tony

    
    I dont believe we can know the date but there is nothing wrong with
    looking for the signs. Scripture clearly states that we should be ready
    and we should be able to identify the season by the signs.  The only
    caution is that as we study and look forward to His returning we dont
    lose focus.  I am very interested in what you areas you thought were
    interesting.  Please expound.
    
    
    >>In other words, are we preventing God from returning?
    
      God is " longsuffering compassionate and full of mercy.."  He wills
    that all come to the saving knowledge of Him.

That was my shortest answer.  I am in good company.  And wrong is only 
a relative term in this case, because being wrong to someone who is 
wrong doesn't make one wrong after all.

But that's okay,too.

Mark

    
    >I believe it is wrong to spend a great deal of time trying to nail 
     down a day and time, while people all around us are in danger of spending
     an eternity in Hell.
    
    JIm,.
    
     Interesting comment, do you also believe that it is wrong to dispute
    doctrinal differences based upon the same outcome??

 No.  I tend to think, however, that there are those who make end times
 prognostications almost a religion unto itself and the focus shifts away
 seeing souls saved.



Jim

    
    >No.  I tend to think, however, that there are those who make end times
     prognostications almost a religion unto itself and the focus shifts away
     seeing souls saved.
     
    
    Jim 
    
     I agree with you but you can make that same statement about any
    scriptural niche that shifts the focus away from Christ and his
    immeasurable Love.  That is exactly my point.  We are told to be ready
    and to watch for these things to happen then we will know the season of
    His returning.  We should not let this encompass and drive or replace
    our focus upon Christ.
    
    Dan :-)

    If I may,
    
    Matt 24:14
    
    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a
    testimony to all nations, and then shall the end come.
    
    How many nations are left to be preached to? We have the technology of
    satellites, and missionaries being sent to the most remote places on
    earth. We cannot be far off.
    
    In watching "today in Bible Prophesy", and "Jack Van Impe presents",
    they seem to think any time now. In a recent JVI show, he spoke of the
    parable of the fig tree to mean 40 years from the rebirth of Israel,
    which transposed in 1948. (A Hal Lindsey taeching from The late great
    planet Earth). Now, in being allowed of God to interepret the book of
    Daniel (sealed up until the end times) now it's the end times, so...
    He seems to believe the generation of 40 years didn't start counting
    down until 1967, (6 day war) when Jerusalem became the (not undisputed)
    capitol of Israel. This brings us to 2007, and includes the 7 years of
    tribulation. So, according to these folk, the year 2000 is the cut-off
    point, or the end of the age of dispensation of Grace to the nations.
    
    Reminds me of an old Larry Norman song, "I wish we'd all been ready"
    
    Bob

    a bit of the class Perspectives on the World Christian Movement is
    coming back to haunt me...
    
    in at least one place, the Bible speaks of how people from every nation
    will be there to worship God (forget the exact quote).  Apparently the
    word translated as nation is ethnae (or similar), meaning people group.
    A people group is a unit smaller than a nation, defined to be a group
    of people sharing the same situation, language, culture, etc.
    At any rate, the most popular estimate I've seen of the number of
    unreached people groups left is approximate 11,000-12,000 groups.
    
    geesh, I've forgotten more than I thought... have to look this one up
    tonight...

    Actually, the year given as the rebirth of Christ in His church and the
    beginning of the great tribulations, is supposed to be the the last 7
    "weeks" of Daniel's "70 weeks".  The timing of this 70 weeks is a
    countdown...the ticker going only when Isreal is ruled from within. 
    According to Biblical and secular history, Isreal was ruled from within
    for 69 "weeks" total before the ticker stopped after Christ's death on
    the cross (I will explain this more tomorrow, in a bit of detail
    tomorrow).  
    
    In 1947 the command was given to restore Isreal.  The ticker began
    again.  7 "weeks" added to 1947 equates to 1996.  If the
    interpretations I've read are correct, then this is the beginning of a
    terrible and wonderful era in history.
    
    This makes little sense without showing the scriptural support for this
    conclusion, so I will enter the details as I have time tomorrow.
    
    -steve

    The statement pertaining to are we keeping Jesus from returning
    reminded me of a discussion with my Father in law who is a missionary
    in North Dakota and Canda to the Native Americans.  This was shortly
    before Bush was elected.
    
    He was dead set against Bush as president, because Bush was part of the
    One World Goverment, and he felt if Bush was elected he and Gorby would
    establish the One World Goverment he felt would be the beginning of
    Tribulation.
    
    I asked him what made him feel that he could change prophesy by voting
    for one man or another, it was a tense few minutes, but we discussed
    it, and he basically didn't beleive he could, he was just hoping that
    it wouldn't happen yet.  He is of the Post Millinum view.
    
    I also told him once He could stay here during the Tribulation, but I
    was going home with Jesus when he came back.
    
    We actually get along very well, but do have some differences.
    
    Sparky

    Maranatha!

      Hi,
    
        Mark, when I say wrong, my context is relative to truth.  But,
        then again...I am not the way...Jesus is!
    
        The reason I believe we can hasten the coming of Christ runs
        very deep and ultimately brings to the forefront what I believe
        is God's character, what is justification, and what is the
        atonement.
        
        Without getting into the above (for time and space limitations),
        scripture clearly says we can hasten the second coming (2 Peter).  
        Scripture also prophecies of the 2nd coming - gives events leading
        up to it and time prophecies as well.
    
        Clearly there is tension here.  We have a statement that says it
        can be hastened and others that predict the time when.  One very
        possible harmonious interpretation is that the scriptures that
        point to when (in any way) do so not on the basis of God setting 
        a watch, but rather on the basis of God's _foreknowledge_.
    
        There has got to be a very good reason why Christ has not come yet.
        No one aches in his heart over the pain caused by sin like God 
        does.  The reason He hasn't come is because He _can't_ and the 
        reason He can't has got to do with His character of love.  
    
        There is a controversy of issues and God must resolve the issues.
        God knows all, He will resolve them for the sake of His intelligent
        creation.  The resolution of issues is something that is manifested
        through God's remnant in the last days and much of the great 
        controversy of issues can be seen in the book of Job.  We are
        his witnesses and the perfection of the last generation and its
        preparedness for the time of trouble is not contingent on God, but
        on us. God has already given His Son to us, it remains for us to
        receive Him fully.  That's the key.  God would never withhold a
        fuller reception of His Son in the heart.
    
        The context of Peter's speech in Acts as well as the book of
        Hebrews clearly shows that the early Christians could have
        witnessed the second coming.  Peter quotes from Joel passages which
        clearly are endtime.  Hebrews says "Let us go on unto perfection"
        and calls its hearers to _rest_.  It NEVER alludes to God with-
        holding that rest from His people, but lays the onus on the
        corporate body.  Hebrews parallels the exodus to God's people 
        and mentions the time of wandering.  It says that they did not 
        enter because of unbelief.  God did not _make them not believe_,
        the choice was there's.  Likewise, God did not make Ephesus 
        (symbolic of the early Christian church - 1st of the 7 churches 
        of Revelation) lose her first love, but scripture says she lost
        her first love.  The whole context of Hebrews is apocalyptic and
        waiting for the fulfillment of the everlasting covenant which is
        the law being written in the heart.  The whole context puts the
        onus on what prevents this work on God's people's willingness to
        receive and not on God being unwilling to give and prepare them
        for the last days.
    
        Scripture repeatedly speaks of preparation and the context is
        always the willingness of God's people and not some sudden 
        act done by God.  He just needs a willing people to work through.
        He will give as much as we are willing to receive and when we
        receive enough, we will usher in the closing scenes of persecution
        for it is when we shine that the darkness will really begin to 
        hate and persecute us.
    
                                                       Tony

    Re: Daniel's 70 weeks
    
    When Chuck Missler was here, he presented a fascinating mathematical
    (number of days) relationship between this prophecy and Israel's
    formation in 1948, as well as the 6-day war in 1967.  When I get the
    tapes (probably tonight or Sunday), I'll post it.  
    
    When I first heard it, it gave me goose-bumps.  The same principle when
    applied to a speculative rapture date was also interesting.
    
    Mike

Really, Karen ought to answer this one ..... Karen, when's your baby going 
to be born?  Not "When is it due?", but "When will it be born"?  You can 
tell from all sorts of signs (like some clothes not fitting) that it's got 
to be soon, but, if you're anything like most wives I know, you'll be 
thinking the time drags awfully near the end.


I really think that's the most accurate answer for Jesus' return as well.
Matthew 24:8 speaks of the early indications, referring to them as being 
'the beginning of birth-pains'.  Not 'like the beginning of birth-pains', 
but actually 'the beginning of birth-pains'.

The characteristics of birth-pains as far as I am aware are:

They start very quietly, and gradually, over quite a long time, get
stronger and more painful, and each one lasts longer.  They work to a 
climax, when the pain suddenly results - with an effort - in a delight 
and joy which is out of all proportion to the pains suffered.  The pains 
cease, and are overwhelmed by the real new life suddenly there delighting 
us with its helpless struggles and cries.

Matthew 24 continues with the multiplication of pains and distresses in the
world, as the end approaches, until in v29-30: "Immediately after the
distress of those days...the sign of the Son of Man will appear...They will
see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky..." 

John 16:21 has it : 
 "A woman giving birth to a child has pain because her time has come; but 
  when her baby is come, she forgets the anguish because of her joy that 
  a child is born into the world.""


Interesting that the two passages which emphasise how unexpected the LORD's 
return will be to the 'rest of the world' also underline taht Christians 
will be aware,  not because of numbers and date-fixing, but because we can 
hear His voice.

Matthew 24:36 reminds us that "No-one knows about that day or the hour",
while verse 32-33 assures us that it's like recognising that summer is
coming:  "Even so, when you see all these things, you know that it is near,
right at the door." 

Note that for date-fixers, Matthew 24:22 throws in another spanner, saying 
that "for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened."

1 Thessalonians 5 is the other passage :
vs 1-2:
 "Now brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for
  you know very well that the day of the LORD will come like a thief in the
  night." - ie unexpectedly.

but then v4 continues:
 "But you, brothers are not in darkness so that this day should surprise 
  you like a thief...."


Verse 3, while not directly relevant to the above point, is pertinent to 
something earlier, going: "While people are saying "Peace and safety", 
destruction will come on them suddenly, as labour pains on a pregnant 
woman, and they will not escape."

I see "Peace and Safety" being claimed for all sorts of places in words 
which cover up a lot of blood.  But I am yet to see certain events drawing 
to the final climax.  The signs are gathering; we should be 'ready' 
regardless.  

"Therefore encourage each other with these words."	1 Thessalonians 4:18

Steve :
.9�    Maybe I'm just a crazy man, but at the ripe old age of 27, I believe I
.9�    will be here (God willing) during this time.  

Maybe I'm just a crazy man, but at the ripe old age of 46, I believe I will
be here during this time, if I am given my 3-score-and-10.

I think it would be a sad time indeed, when Christians were *not* looking 
for the LORD's return.  A very low time spiritually.

.9�    Funny, but in SOAPBOX, I am a doomsayer by saying things will come to a
.9�    head soon.  In here, I am an optemist.  8^)  

No.  An optimist ;-)
           ^
The reason is the same as in 2 Corinthians 2:16 :
"to the one we are the smell of death, to the other, the fragrance of life."

	No-one likes to be reminded of death within them.
	Everyone likes to be reminded of life within them.

Jim:
.1� While I certainly believe there is plenty to tell us that we could be 
.1� near that time, I believe it is wrong to spend a great deal of time
.1� trying to nail down a day and time, while people all around us are in 
.1� danger of spending an eternity in Hell.
The imminent return of the LORD Jesus is quite a factor both in motivating 
us for evangelism, and in impressing people with their need to be saved...

All in balance, of course, but no doctrine should exclude any other.  They 
are complimentary, not in conflict.

Bob:
.16� In watching "today in Bible Prophesy", and "Jack Van Impe presents",
.16� they seem to think any time now.
From your further quotes it sounds as if they're trying to fix numbers, 
rather than watch the signs, as Jesus instructed.  There are a number of 
identifiables we have yet to see.  For instance, in 2 Thessalonians 2:1..
Paul says : 

 "Concerning the coming of our LORD Jesus Christ, and our being gathered 
  to  him, we ask you, brothers, not to be alarmed by some prophecy, report 
  or letter supposed to have come from us saying that the day of the LORD 
  has already come.  Don't let anyone deceive you in that way, for that day 
  will not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is 
  revealed; the man doomed to destruction.  He wil opose and will exalt 
  himself over everything that is called God or is worshipped, so that he 
  sets himself up in God's temple proclaiming himself to be God.

This corresponds to the prophecy in Daniel 9:27, referred to by the LORD 
Jesus in Matthew 24:15 as an event then to be fulfilled.

Another prophecy I find fascinating is in Jeremiah 31:38-40.  It describes 
the area around Jerusalem settled early this century, as the extent 
Jerusalem would cover, and ends: 
	"The city will never again be uprooted or demolished." 

After which, I can only end as Mark did ... 
			Even so, come! LORD Jesus!

				Looking forward to THE DAY!
							Andrew

    I think it's very important to distinguish between the public coming of
    the Lord and the private taking of His Church. Too many people mash the
    two events together. The public coming will certainly be predictable -
    it will occur 7 years after the antichrist signs an agreement with the
    nation of Israel. The private taking of the Church, though, is what's
    imminent and will occur "as a thief in the night".
    
    	BD�

Barry, 

Our difference in perspective here lies in our understanding of passages
like 1 Thessalonians 5.  As I read it, the "But you, brothers" of verse 4
is applying to the same event as the verse 2 reference to the "thief in the
night".  I see the rapture as being a part of our LORD's visible return.

As you knew ;-)

						Andrew

    
    
    I am not convinced that they are not the same event. Why is there
    2 events that take place and not one?

      One more that believes they are one and the same event.
    
      (and that believes that the 70th week comes right after
      the 69th!)
    
                                              Tony

Re -.23

Perhaps they do see the signs, as they are nearly impossible to not see,
however, they seem to be trying to pinpoint the time. They talk of the
rebuilding of the temple the "abomination of desolation" will be standing in,
proclaiming he is God Almighty. Apparently, it is being planned, architecturaly,
and the priests are in training, for the day the temple opens.

As far as the rapture, and the return of Jesus, there are many theories. The one
I like (cause it's the one where I won't be here during the 7 years) is the
pre-trib belief of rapture (in the twinkling of an eye), like, being beamed up,
simultaneously, all those who are ready, doing the will of God, and watching.

The the 7 years,, then Christ comes back, and "every eye shall see" Him, as He
does the wonderful things promised, all over the history of the Bible

But remember, no man knows the time, not the angels of heaven, but my Father
only. (Matthew 24:36) So my prayer is that we ALL are found ready.

Bob

Hi Bob,

� The one I like (cause it's the one where I won't be here during the 7 years)
That's the 'usual' one, which Barry holds to.  But that tongue-in-cheek
'reason' is sometimes held as the real reason, whereas we can only really
take what we find in the Word. 

I would see the 'twinkling of an eye' ['like, being beamed up' - if you
like!] as happening at Jesus' visible return.  But then Barry and I have
hammered out this a few times, as I have in many areas, because I'm
interested in knowing the truth, and if there *is* a Biblical reason for a
secret rapture, I'd like to get it straight.  I just don't read it there, 
though...  But that's not to say I'm gonna miss it ;-)

 								Andrew

Aside on "being caught up":

I haven't been too enthusiastic about being a pre-trib or post-trib kind
of guy.  Matthew 24 seems to show a lot of troubles for *believers*.
But I'm ready for the eye-twinkle, and hope that these studied scholars
are correct in interpreting the sequence of events.  I don't know how
this fits with "he who endures to the end shall be saved."

Also, has anyone heard or considered that our spirits will be caught up
in a rapture and all of our bodies will be left behind as empty shells?
Any support or refutation of this concept?

Mark

� Also, has anyone heard or considered that our spirits will be caught up
� in a rapture and all of our bodies will be left behind as empty shells?

That's an interesting one which I've thought of when considering all the
popular representations of a secret rapture which portray a vast impact as
people suddenly disappear.  It *could* just seem like they all dropped
dead...  I don't think this is the case, because the 'changed...', of
1 Corinthians 15:51-52 (corresponding to the 'we shall be like Him, for we
shall see Him as He is' of 1 John 3:2) seems to indicate a change of form,
rather than leaving one form to assume the other - ie, that generation of
Christians do not experience death, as in the abandoning of the body;
rather the translation of the body... 

								Andrew 

    Mark,
    
    1 Corinthians 15:51
    
    Behold, I show you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all
    be changed.
    
    And Philipians 3:21
    
    Who shall change our lowly body, that it may be fashioned like his
    glorious body, according to the working by which he is able even to
    subdue all things to himself.
    
    This I take, as the complete transformation of our physical bodies,
    into our heavenly bodies, as in the verses 1 Corinthians 52-56 seem to say.
    
    And 2 Thessalonians 2:7
    
    For the mystery of iniquity doth already work; only he who now
    hindereth [will continue to hinder] until he be taken out of the way.
    
    I've heard 2 different variations of this. He being explained as the
    church, who's prayers hinder the work of iniquity, and when the church
    is taken up, the dam bursts, and evil flows like oceans held back by
    the dam.
    
    And He being the Holy Spirit, but I cannot see God removing the Holy
    Spirit, as many will come to be believers, perhaps even as a result of
    acknowledging those "believers who talk about the rapture" have
    disappeared. 
    
    Hope that helps,
    
    Bob
    

Thanks, both!

    Yes, Andrew and I have gone over this a few times ;-).
    
    I don't think the term "secret rapture" is accurate. Even assuming the
    pre-trib position, when it occurs it will be anything but secret.
    Perhaps the intention is that "secret" relates to when it will happen
    rather than *whether* it has happened. (When millions of people
    instantly disappear I don't think it will be a secret!)
    
    I don't have the energy to re-assemble all the arguments for the
    pre-trib rapture, but a few biggies include:
    	- anything other than pre-trib destroys imminency
    	- it nicely accounts for why 1 Thes. 4 provides comfort (v18)
    	- it nicely accounts for the lack of mention of the Church
    	  in Rev. 4-18
    	- it allows time for the Church to enjoy the Marriage Supper
    	  with/of the Lamb (i.e. during the tribulation)
    	- it is consistent with God's love for His people (i.e. believers
    	  are not appointed unto wrath (1 Thes. 5:9))
    	- it is consistent with God's promises (Rev. 3:10 et al.)
    	- it seems more reasonable than an instantaneous round-trip
    	  for the "return" in Rev. 19
    	- it seems to maintain the distinction Jesus was apparently
    	  making in John 5 (compare v25 w/ 28ff)
    	- it is consistent with the fact that the tribulation is
    	  described as the time of Jacob's trouble - for the ultimate
    	  restoration of the Jewish people (Dan. 9:24), as the previous
    	  69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy were focused on the Jews
    
    	BD�

    .34 - Ditto
    
    			Fonz
    

    I guess I look at things this way...
    
    I believe in a post tribulation rapture.  I'll prepare and expect to go
    through some very rough times (should it truly happen in my lifetime),
    trying to better my walk with God at every turn.
    
    Should this belief be wrong, and the rapture occurs before the great
    tribulation, then I will be ever more thrilled as I do not have to go
    through extremely bad times.
    
    This may sound strange, but I actually want to go through it.  If it
    comes as soon as I believe it will, I want to be around to try and
    guide family and friends to Christ (those that haven't accepted Him
    yet).  I believe the opportunities of this terrible time will be 
    tremendous, as God pours His Spirit into the
    Church to witness to the world.  I think these harsh times will open
    the hearts of those who I have failed to reach, as well as those who I
    will come into contact with.  I don't want to miss out on this most
    wonderful opportunity afforded to us by God.  
    
    If I suffer, so be it...but God will provide and protect me.  There 
    can be no doubt that I will be totally dependant
    upon the Lord, and will be purified of residual human stubborness of my
    spirit in this time as well.
    
    Think of what times of emergency do to your thought process.  Even
    during minor illnesses, the suffering tends to make all material
    possessions far from important.  Imagine how little such things will
    mean to us in a time of great tribulations. 
    
    I truly believe that God will provide and protect His church
    during this time, though.  The suffering will be reserved for those
    who refuse Him, to loosen thier stubborness (not that the church will
    have it made in the shade, but they will be forced to depend on God
    alone for thier well being...as it should be).
    
    Does this make any sense, or am I just babbling?  8^)  (I think I have
    a direct descendant that helped build the Tower of Babel.  8^)
    
    I don't like pain, but I'm willing to go through it all if I can save
    just *one* member of my family, *one* friend, or one person I have yet to
    meet.  What is 3.5 years of misery compared to the eternal consequences
    of a lost soul?
    
    -steve (the optImistic doomsayer)

>    I don't have the energy to re-assemble all the arguments for the
>    pre-trib rapture, but a few biggies include:
    
    - it's consistent with how God spared believers in the OT (Enoch, 
      Noah, Lot).
    - Believers aren't judged at the same time as believers.  God always
      deals with his people separate from the world.   
    - In Genesis 18:23-25, Abraham eloquently states that God will not slay the
      righteous with the wicked. 
    - II Thessalonians 2:1-8 contains the clearest stance in the Bible where 
      Paul taught the church would not be here for the tribulation.  The early 
      church was scared because they knew the rapture wasn't the day of the 
      Lord, the tribulation was.  Paul tells them that too much has to happen 
      yet before the day of the Lord can come.  The key here is the word
      "apostasy."  The word apostasy is very interesting.  In Greek, it is
      "hay apostocia" and has been translated "falling away" in the KJV.  The
      primary meaning of apostasy is "rejection, revolt, and rebellion 
      against God", but there is another meaning.  It can also be translated 
      "disappearance" or "departure."  Verse 3 could be translated in this 
      manner!  In verse 6, there is a restrainer.  Who is it that restrains 
      the Antichrist and must be taken out of the way for the Antichrist to 
      be revealed?  Who is the restrainer?  The restrainer is the Holy Spirit 
      working through the church.  The church is spoken of as being salt and
      light.  What does salt do?  Restrain from putrification!  What does
      light do?  Restrains darkness!  When the church is taken out the 
      tribulation can begin.
    - Revelation 3:10 contains the message to the faithful last day church
      that is in the Philadelphia church.  The faithful endtime church is 
      promised to be kept from the tribulation described in succeeding 
      chapters.  The sphere of this testing is the whole world.  God proved 
      in the Old Testament that He always removes his people from His 
      judgments.  If the whole world will be tested, He obviously has to take 
      His people out of the world.  It does not say the church will be kept 
      safe on earth while the tribulation occurs.  It says the church will be 
      kept from the very hour of testing!  The actual time of the tribulation.  
      The word translated "kept from" in verse 10 is tereoek in Greek, meaning 
      "kept out" or "kept out of."  That is its only meaning.  If we were to
      be kept on earth, Jesus would of used other words, and tereoek isn't one 
      of them.  Some say we will go through the tribulation like Noah.  The
      Greek words tereoa "into" or tereoadia "keep you through" would have 
      been used if this is true.  The only other place in the Bible where 
      tereoek is used is in John 17:15, where it is used twice.  It speaks of 
      "taking out" and "keeping away", not "bring through."  
    
    
    If you're of the belief that the Lord will bring you safely through the
    tribulation, you have a problem with the many citations in Revelation
    where saints are being killed off like flies.  Just about every page!  Are
    they being kept safe?  Would God make a meaningless promise?  The saints
    that are dying are those saved during the tribulation as the Old Testament
    saints were saved.  Only if we distinguish between the church-age saints 
    and the tribulation-age saints does the promise of Revelation 3:10 make any
    sense.
    
    The hour of trial in Revelation 3:10 is referred to only one other time
    in that book by John.  Revelation 14:7 is where you'll find it.  John 5:24
    says that believers will not experience this.  Romans 8:1 says those in
    Christ will not be condemned.  We have been saved from ever experiencing 
    the wrath of God.  We may experience the world's trials, but will not 
    experience God's trials.  Grace can't be grace if mixed with anything else.

Mike, Barry, 

Thanks ... I'll peruse at leisure, but at a first glance through see
nothing I haven't heard before, and nothing I find scripturally convincing.
But I don't want to rain on the parade, as a certain person expresses it
;-) - Like Steve, I'm not going to be dragged up shouting "Hey, I haven't
had my dose of persecution yet!"   But the privilege of suffering for the
LORD [if that's the path offered] is precious, and something to be neither 
spurned nor taken lightly (2 Corinthians 4:17, Romans 8:18, Hebrews 
11:35-38....).

btw - I don't know if you want to thrash through all the arguments 'for'
and 'against' again?  I don't think it would be of much purpose - none of
us would change our position!  But I am happy enough to run over the
principles (as time permits) if you want to, purely for interest. 

Meanwhile, I'm content to wait and see... ;-)

							Andrew

>    - In Genesis 18:23-25, Abraham eloquently states that God will not slay the
>      righteous with the wicked. 

Genesis 18:23  And Abraham drew near, and said, wilt thou also destroy the
righteous with the wicked?
 24  Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also
destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?
 25  That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous
with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far
from thee: shall not the judge of all the earth do right?

Good verses, Mike.  However, I must point out one little thing: 

 32  And he said, oh let not the lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this
once: peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy
it for tens sake.
 33  And the lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with
Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

I have often wondered why Abraham stopped at 10 from 50; or that the Lord
concluded the conversation at 10.  Why not 1 righteous man?  Can it be that
there is a limit?  But even so, I would agree that no righteous man
in God's sight will see [real] death, even if this mortal coil is snuffed out.

MM

    
    Steve,
    
      I'm waiting to here about what the book that you read had to say.
    
     Let's reserve this note for discussing topics in the book, not
    rehashing pre,mid,post and pan trib.

� I have often wondered why Abraham stopped at 10 from 50; or that the Lord
� concluded the conversation at 10.  Why not 1 righteous man?  Can it be that
� there is a limit?  But even so, I would agree that no righteous man
� in God's sight will see [real] death, even if this mortal coil is snuffed out.

Genesis 18:33 expresses it as :
	"When the LORD had finished speaking with Abraham"

Bearing in mind that God introduced the topic in verse 17-19 [apparently to
do with Abraham's faithfulness in instructing his own offspring, towards
the nation that Israel was to become], I take this to mean that God was
drawing something out of Abraham in the conversation, which was achieved by
the time he had repeated the cycle down to 10.  The numbers were
incidental; the heart recognition of God as the 'Judge of all the earth,
Who *would* do right' was what God was teaching Abraham. 

If you want God's number, and His desire for deliverance of mankind, 
Ezekiel 22:30 is a telling example...
 "I looked for a man among them ... who would stand before Me in the gap on 
  behalf of the land so that I would not have to destroy it, but I found none."

Meanwhile, I think we're unanimous on the final precept of your quote!

							Andrew

    re: .40
    
    Good idea.  I really wasn't trying to rehash old arguments, just get
    some opinions. 
    
    I will do my best to extract the fundamental ideas and scriptural
    references used in this book (called The Final Victory: The Year 2000,
    BTW).  If what I type in makes little sense, then it is my own fault,
    as the book neatly tied together the prophesies and evidence.  It made
    very good sense to me.
    
    One of the basic ideas to keep in mind (that the more mature Christians
    may know already...I never quite figured it out until it was revealed
    in this book), is that history (or His Story...as it is affectionately
    referred to in this book) seems to have a way of repeating itself-
    kind of like a cycling.  There are too many parallels in the events of
    the old testament and the new testament (more than I could ever hope to
    type in, though I will show a few in later notes).  Beginnings and
    endings in the Bible have shown to have a definite pattern.
    
    Is it just coincidence that when Jesus was born ther was a Joseph, a
    Mary, a Herod and a Simeon...all related to His birth?  Then, 33 years
    later when He died, ther was a different Joseph, a different Mary, a
    different Herod and a different Simeon all related to His death?
    
    The first act of Christ's earthly ministry was to serve wine (John
    2:1-11), and the last act of His earthly ministry was to serve wine
    (Mark 14:23-26.
    
    The name of David was the very first human name recorded in the New
    Testament, and also the very last (Matthew 1:1 and Revalation 22:16).
    
    These are just a few coincidences...or are they coincidence?  Is He
    trying to tell us something? Show us a pattern?
    
    -steve (this is all I have time for right now...I'll try to enter in
    more later)

      re: -1
    
        Hey great stuff Steve!  I believe the Bible is PACKED with
        spiritual messages and the kind of links you have provided
        are the kind of things that when understood in their intent
        (and there IS an intent!) reveals some of the deeper things
        of God that isn't quite as apparent on the surface of the
        word.
    
                                                    Thanks!,
    
                                                    Tony

Hi Marcos,

I tend to think of the time phenomena as either miraculous and / or the 
intensive effects of the accumulation of pollution, marking the limits 
God permits mankind.  Probably not tied to predictable events, but that's 
just my personal opinion of course!

The Zechariah reference is generally taken to be referring specifically to
Israel, in context.  However, devastation of mankind is more generally
indicated in Revelation 9:18 "A third of mankind was killed by the three
plagues of fire, smoke and sulphur...", as well as the various devastations
of Revelation 6. 

Re: EARTHQUAKE SHAKES UP CENTER OF PORN INDUSTRY  - see also 15.319

re Nostradamus
 - as one whose source was in the occult, rather than Divine revelation, we 
should not place reliance on his statements.  They might come true - but 
they might not.  Either way they do not affect the integrity of Scripture.

							Andrew

    To continue with my last note...
    
    A very important verse which shows us that the OT scriptues tie
    together with the NT, and may in fact be a mold for it to follow, is
    I Cor 10:11.  Paul, speaking of events found in the history of OT Isreal...
    "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are 
    written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." 
    
    The Greek word "ensamples" in this verse is "tupos", meaning "type". 
    A type is something natural that has spiritual significance or meaning. 
    This ties further into another concept needed to fully understand many
    phrases having to do with Isreal and how it is a parable for the
    Church of the Church Era.  Another interesting meaning for "tupos" is
    "mold".  The OT Isreal could litterally be a mold from which God's NT
    people were taken (more on this reasoning later, if you like).  
    
    An awareness of this fact is essential for properly interpreting many
    NT passages.
    
    Since the creation, God has chosen to use natural objects to reveal
    spiritual, heavenly truthes.  In His wisdom He decided to teach man His
    deep, spiritual secrets through the use of simple object lessons that
    are easily understood.  Since God made the entire natural world to be a
    shadow of His realm, the task of teaching man spiritual truths is
    greatly simplified by use of natural, earthly objects in which we can
    understand.  (see Romans 1:19-20)
    
    Soloman found heavenly wisdom in natural things, as well.  
    (IKings 4:33-34)
    
    Isreal, Jerusalem, and Zion all refer to the Church.  
    
    Hebrews 12:22-24, Revelation 21:2, and Galatians 4:24-27 all state thta
    the Church is the heavenly (or spiritual) "Jerusalem".
    
    The Gentiles were made citizens of Isreal at the cross.  Ephesians
    2:11-19 declares that the Gentiles were to be made part of the
    'commonwealth of Isreal' through the work of Christ on the Cross.  Both
    peoples are now citizens of the same nations, and part of the same
    Church or "temple".
    
    Peter calls the Church a "holy nation" in  IPeter 2:5-9.
    
    
    Psalm 132:13-14 states that "Zion" is His eternal dwelling.  The only
    eternal dwelling of God is His Church, or Temple.  Therefore, the OT
    writers understood that "Zion" referred to the Church even in thier
    day.  This is further confirmed by comparing Hebrews 11:10 to 12:22-23.  
    
    
    
    
    
    Those are a few pointers for this concept.  This helps us to separate
    interpretations as to which refer to temporal Jerusalem and Isreal, and
    the spiritual one (the Church).  Seeing "Jerusalem" or "Isreal" in the
    Bible does not necessarily mean the physical city.  With this fact
    known, we can look at the OT as being applicable not just to our lives,
    but to God plan for the Church Age, as well.  By setting up
    recognizable pattern, God shows us what to expect in the next "cycle"
    of history.  Beginnnings and endings seem to take on a definite
    pattern, if we know what to look for. 
    
    Just as Jesus came with a heavenly sign in His birth in (approx.) 5 BC,
    His birth into His church will also have a heavenly sign when His
    "birth" happens (my guess, anyway).  His ministry lasted 3.5 years
    then...the great tribulation will last 3.5 years, during which His
    spirit will be ministering to the world through his church (both
    figures of 3.5 years can be confirmed in scripture).  
    
    When He was born, He ended the OT age and began the NT age.  He has
    said he is "the beginning and the end", therefore the NT age will end
    with a birth, as well (just as it bagan).
    
    Just as He came the first tiem with a birth, He will come the second
    time with a birth.  The first coming was a physical birth through a
    physical Isreal, the second birth will be a spiritual birth through a
    spiritual Isreal.
    
    Well, I've axed this up enough so far.  Hopefully the above makes a bit
    of sense.  I've always found myself interested in finding patterns in
    things.  It's exciting to find certain patterns in the Bible that help
    us out.
    
    -steve

    Say Andrew. It's ok with me if you don't want to "clutter" this note
    further with pre/mid/post-trib, but I would sincerely like to hear from
    you. I don't want to debate it - I don't plan on trying to change
    your opinion about this. The thing is, I would like a simple list that
    gives the reasons why you lean towards the post-trib position. Nothing
    fancy - just a bullet list that shows some support for post-trib.
    If you want to send me Mail, that's great.
    
    Thanks!
    
    	BD�

    I'd be interested in seeing such a bullet list.
    our college/career group is currently studying prophecy and such, and
    the leader is very pre-trib - so I'm not going to hear much about other
    views.
    
    p

    A few ideas for your consideration:
    
*   I Cor 15:51-52:
    Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be
    changed- in a flash, in teh twinkling of an eye, at THE LAST TRUMPET. 
    For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and
    we will be changed.  
    
    This is a reference to the rapture.  WHEN will it happen?  At the LAST
    TRUMPET.  This will be the final victory over death..."Death has been
    swallowed up in victory."
    
    This is the last enemy of Christ which must be defeated before His
    physical return.  Apparently, the rapture is the defeating of death. 
    Sometime later (no one knows the day or the hour), we will all come
    back to rule with Christ, when He physically returns.
    
    Who will we rule over?  Perhaps those of the "10 brides" who were not
    ready for his return?  There has to be someone left on earth.  The
    Great Tribulation will be the wake up call, but some will still not be
    ready for the rapture...perhaps it will be these whom the millenium is
    for.  Those taking place in the rapture have nothing to fear of the
    second death, though this passage, by context infers that someone will
    be here to fear such a fate.
    
    Since judgement does not come until after the 1000 years plus Satan's
    short time to deceive the nations- Gog and Magog, then obviously some
    of those under the "iron rule" of Jesus will turn away, sadly.  In
    fact, there will be a great many turn away from Christ "in numbers they
    are like the sand on the seashore", only to be destroyed when coming to
    attack God's people.
    
    Also, since the rapture is to come at the seventh trumpet, the
    chronology of the trumpets show that the Church will at least be on
    earth for a portion of the great tribulation.  (see Revalations)
    
    
    Well, I gotta go...more tomorrow.
    
    -steve

Hi Barry,

I came from an A-Millennial background, which takes so much figuratively.  
I found many aspects of this which did not add up to the God I know and 
love...  Listening and reading I found the premillenial stance to be more 
scripturally honest (from my perspective), but I had to be sure all along 
the line.  I had to be fully convinced of each point, in order to justify a 
change in position (or rather, in order to understand what I believed, as 
I'd always had serious problems with the replacement theology scoop - I see
we've got Steve coming in with that now!). 

The most significant area I stalled on was the pre-tribulational rapture,
because I couldn't justify this from scripture.  For the pointers that
people use out of their direct context, there are as many others pointing
in the opposite direction.  The approach I found valuable in determining
the pre-millennial position was to [prayerfully] take the Bible at face
value, as if I were reading literature targetted at a general audience. 
Also, taking words to mean their face value (rather than redirecting /
substituting at a later date).  This approach clicked with everything 
except the p-t.r.

The church I attend still occupies the AMill stance, so most of my
awareness tends to be on the 'why pre-mill rather than a-mill' front,
though the position of the rapture has occupied considerable attention and
interest, of course.  I believe that the problems I have with it could be a
stumbling-block for people to accept the pre-mill position at all, as the
pre-trib rapture is usually given such importance, often from very unstable 
reasonsa

A bullet list....  That sort of perspective usually needs considerable
words to explain why certain passages are understood differently from a
particular well-established view, and it also relies on pulling a lot of
references together.  Especially when there are totally different 
bases put forward for the view...  But I'll try.  Give me time!

						God bless
							Andrew

    >    short time to deceive the nations- Gog and Magog, then obviously some
    
    Gog is not a nation, it's a demon king.  See Amos 7:1 in the Septugint.

    A demon king? (not that I'm saying this is incorrect- just never heard
    that before).
    
    So, anyone care to enlighten me on what is *really* happening after the
    millenium rule of Christ?  I have little understanding of post
    Millenium activities.
    
    -steve

    I have heard from past teachings the Gog, and Magog refer to Russia,
    and the surrounding ex-communist nations. Russia, aka Rosh, from where
    one of the sons of Benjamin (Old Testament Genesis 46:21) moved to
    sometime during his life, or perhaps his decendants?
    
    Gog, one of the sons of Joel (Old Testament 1 Chronicles 5:4) and
    Magog, one of the sons of Japeth, (Old Testament Genesis 10:2) moved on
    in their lives to places north. Has anyone else heard of this?
    
    I think these are the same Gog, and Magog spoken of by Daniel, when 
    talking about the nations from the north moving in on Israel prior
    to the battle of Arrmegedon.

    Bob

    Magog is Russia.  Gog is only mentioned a few times in the Bible and
    appears thousands of years apart.  It isn't really referred to as a
    nation in either of them (Amos 7:1 - Septugint, Ezekiel 38-39, or 1
    Chronicles 5:4).  Obviously it isn't the same "human" in each case.
    New speculation Hal Lindsay and Chuck Missler state that they believe
    it is a demon king (ala "This Present Darkness").
    
    This may also be in accordance with Daniel 12 - "knowledge will
    increase."

    Re: increase in knowledge..
    
    Another mark of the end-times is that "knowledge will increase" and
    man "will run to and fro" in the earth.  
    
    Today we witness tremendous increases in knowledge.  From the year of
    Christ to 1900 mankind's total knowledge doubled.  It again doubled
    from 1900-1950.  It doubled again in just another 7 years, and by 1960
    was doubling every two years.  The 1950's began the explosion in the
    exponential increase in knowledge (computers, I'd guess...).
    
    The 1950's also mark another interesting invetion, the jet engine. 
    Until this time traveling "to and fro" about the earth was not such an
    ordinary occurance, as it seems to be implied in Daniel 12.  
    
    Isreal was restored in 1947.  It wasn't until the 1950's that they (the
    fig tree) grew and blossomed.
    
    The birth of the nation in 1948 (the command was given in 1947) marks
    the beginning of the end times.  This is confirmed by the explosive
    increase in knowledge in the 1950's and man's travel 'to and fro' on a
    world wide scale by invention of the jet engine of this decade.  The
    trend continues.
    
    Daniel's 70 weeks was sealed until around the 1950's.  Perhaps we
    should re-think the theories on the end-times that originate
    pre-1950's.  Not that all the theories after that are correct.  8^)
    
    -steve 

>    Daniel's 70 weeks was sealed until around the 1950's.  Perhaps we
>    should re-think the theories on the end-times that originate
>    pre-1950's.  Not that all the theories after that are correct.  8^)
    
    I working on some math for you that will do just that.  I hope to have
    it ready by Monday.  It is similar to the note I posted on how to
    calculate Jesus entry into Jerusalem as prophecied in Daniel 9.  This
    time, I'm applying it to this era.

    
    Extracted from a flyer by "Family Radio, Oakland, CA 94621" :
    
    * A book entitled 1994?, written by Harold Camping presents Bibilical
    information that we may be very near the end of time.....
    
    Has anyone read this book "1994?"
    
    
             Mike

    
    Funny, driving home from work last night, the book you just mentioned
    was being "plugged" on a local Christian radio station. The person
    representing the author stated the end is to be in September, of 1994.
    
    He also talked about the planned rebuilding of the temple, and there
    are currently hundreds of Orthodox Jews being trained as priests of the
    temple.
    
    The same author has written a book called "Are you ready?" Next time
    I'm in the local book store, I'll be looking for them.
    
    Can anyone offer any speculation that the 10 nations mentioned in
    Daniel 7:20, and 7:24, and in Revelation 12:3, 13:1, 17:3, and 17:7
    *isn't* related to the EC?
    
    And the 7 heads, mentioned in the same places, and others, *doesn't*
    relate to the "revived Roman empire". Rev 17:9 - And here is the mind
    which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the
    woman sitteth.
    
    And (now the BIG one)...Does anyone else besides me believe there is an
    possible alternative ending, as in Isaiah 45:17, ...world without end,
    could maybe mean God, who has changed His mind about destruction of
    cities in the past, could also change His mind about destruction in the
    future? Of course, depending on certain conditions, like, for instance,
    the Church, rises up, by the Spirit of God being poured out like never
    before, in the strength and power of God, evangelize more than 50% of the
    earths population, and we, the people of God, plead with the Lord to
    rid the earth of Satan, and his fallen angels, without the utter
    destruction of many people? Or (sigh) is what is written, as it is to
    be?
    
    Bob

  The purpose of this article is not to persuade you to think
  of the specific time of the rapture, but rather of its reality and per-
  haps likelihood in the near future.

                               The Season

  The evidences that indicate a season in which the rapture is to take
  place centers on the historical parallels in the Jewish and Christian
  calendars. Israel has seven holy feast days, three of which are more
  special called the Pilgrimage Feasts or Festivals. The three major feasts
  are as follows:

  o  Passover - Winter barley harvest (the first harvest)

     -  Israel remembers the angel of death passing over, freedom from
        Egyptian slavery, leaving with Egyptian wealth, and the destruc-
        tion of their enemies in the Red Sea.

     -  Christianity remembers the death and resurrection of Jesus who
        freed us from the slavery of sin and from our enemy death, who
        gave us wealth from heaven for our inheritance. By His resur-
        rection was the first fruits of the resurrection from the dead.

  o  Pentecost - Winter wheat harvest

     -  Israel remembers the giving of the law on Mount Sinai and the
        birth of Israel as a nation. However, God's law was written on
        stone, not the heart.

     -  Christianity remembers the giving of the Holy Spirit and the birth
        of the church. The Holy Spirit places God's law in the heart of
        the believer and at the beginning of the church's harvest, 3,000
        were added (Acts 2).

  o  Feast of Tabernacles - General harvest (also known as Succoth, Fes-
     tival of Booths, the Ingathering)

     -  Israel celebrates the end of their labors as the harvest has been
        gathered in. They remember God's supplying their needs in the
        wilderness, and the end of their wilderness journey, and the en-
        trance into the Promised Land. They entered into the Land of Promise
        by crossing a parted Jordan river, even though it was at flood
        stage. On the seventh day of the feast (Hoshana Rabba) the day
        of the Great Hosanna, there was a blasting of the trumpets.

     -  Christianity does not yet have a correlative connection to this
        feast. If the first two special feasts were so closely linked
        by special Christian events, it seems likely that this third feast
        is somehow linked to an event involving the Christian Church.
        There remains only one event left: the rapture.

        Is this the season when Christians will celebrate the end of wan-
        dering and waiting to enter that which has been promised to them?
        The church has been awaiting its harvest, its Ingathering into
        the Promised Land of heaven to be united forever with the Fa-
        ther.


  An important verse of Scripture to note here is Matthew 24:32-34. Now
  learn this lesson from the fig tree: As soon as its twigs get tender
  and its leaves come out, you know that summer is near. Even so, when
  you see all these things, you know it is near, right at the door. I
  tell you the truth, this generation will certainly not pass away un-
  til all these things have happened.

  The generation that sees the fig tree in blossom will not pass away
  without "all these things" [in Matthew 24] happening. It is suggested
  by some scholars (though not by all) that Israel is the fig tree in
  the parable. This year, the nation of Israel celebrates its fortieth
  birthday. Forty is a time of testing in Scripture.

  Also of note is that the world has been experiencing a harvesting of
  souls for the past 40 years through the efforts of the Billy Graham
  Crusade and other missionary work throughout the world. Africa is see-
  ing an especially high number of converts to Christianity. Perhaps this
  is the great pouring out of the Holy Spirit while the American church
  slumbers.

                           How will He come?

  o  In the twinkling of an eye throughout (1 Corinthians 15:51); an es-
     timated 1/35th of a second.

  o  As a thief in the night (1 Thessalonians 5:2); unexpected. To those
     who are not watching, Christ will take His own and leave the rest
     behind.

  He will take some who are ready and leave others who are not (Luke 17:34-
  37). We will meet him in the clouds (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17).

                          God Warns His People

  o  When the great flood came, Noah was warned with time enough to build
     an Ark of safety. He was warned again seven days before God destroyed
     the earth.

  o  When Sodom was destroyed Abraham knew and also Lot was informed;
     angels were sent to rescue him.

  o  The city of Ninevah was warned to repent and by doing so avoided
     the devastation of Sodom.

  o  Israel was warned of being scattered and Judah thrown into 70 years
     of exile.

  o  When Jesus was born, it was foretold and there were those who were
     found waiting and expecting his coming. Wise men from the east, non-
     Jews expected him.

  With all the events of the recent past, are we also being warned of
  His imminent return? Pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to
  escape all these things...and to stand before the son of man (Luke 21:34).

  There will be some saved during the Tribulation but the Bible says that
  most will fall away. Most will not endure the Tribulation to the end.
  Matthew 24:44 says, So you also must be ready, because the Son of Man
  will come at an hour when you do not expect him.
    

    Thanks Steve and Andrew. I had heard the one about the "last trump" -
    there's a start to the bullet list. I do hope that a few more bullets
    can be added to the list. Again, don't feel as if you have to go into
    detail to defend them; I'm not going to jump on anything. I just want
    to know the main reasons why you accept post-trib.
    
    Thanks again.
    
    	BD�

    Just a little addition to what Mark entered...
    
    According to Rabbinic tradition, Enoch was raptured on the same
    Festival day as the day the church started in Acts 2.  It wouldn't be
    unlike God to rapture His church on the same day.

    On a side note, not necessarily being linked to anything, but there is
    a passage I remember (forget the chapter and verse, tho) that mentions
    a purification by fire.
    
    Now, if the church is indeed on earth during the GT, then we would
    indeed be purified by fire in no uncertain terms.
    
    A little bit of purification wouldn't hurt me any, don't know about the
    rest of you.  8^)
    
    -steve

    Thanks, Steve. I presume you're talking about 1 Cor. 3:13-15 (and
    thereabouts).
    
    So far, we have two bullets for the post-trib list:
    	- 1 Cor. 15:52 says we'll be raptured "at the last trump", and
    	  this last trump is equated to the 7th trumpet of Revelation
    	- 1 Cor. 3:13-15 talks about believers' works being tested by
    	  fire, and the tribulation is believed to be that fire
    
    I look forward to hearing from Andrew (and anyone else of the post-trib
    persuasion) so that we can add to the list.
    
    	BD�

    I Corinthians 3:13-15 appears to me to be part of the Believer's
    judgement for rewards.

�    I Corinthians 3:13-15 appears to me to be part of the Believer's
�    judgement for rewards.

Looks like that to me too!

							Andrew

    Hi Barry,
    
    I don't remember your thoughts on 2Thes 2, but perhaps another bullet
    for the outline is this chapter because:
    
    v. 3 says the "man of lawlessness"  will be revealed before "that day"
    comes.  How "that day" ties in with v. 1 "...our being gathered to
    Him..." seems important.
    
    v. 4 shows that TMOL will set himself up in the Temple, proclaiming
    himself to be "G-d".
    
    v. 8 shows that TMOL will be destroyed "by the splendor of His coming"
    
    So, TMOL can not be destroyed until He comes which means TMOL can't set
    himself up in the Temple before He comes which means the Temple must
    (may?) be rebuilt before He comes.
    
    TMOL will be on the earth before Yeshua returns and since v. 1 of this
    passage discusses His return and our being gathered to Him - it seems
    that we're going to be around at the time TMOL is on the earth and
    proclaiming himself to be "G-d".
    
    Do you understand Yeshua to come at that time, destroy TMOL, take
    believers out of the picture for 7 years, then return for the
    millenium?
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

    The book I mentioned earlier seems to imply that you are correct,
    Scott, for the most part.
    
    The Millenium will begin after the marriage supper of the Lamb.  It may
    not be 7 years, but a matter of days before we return to earth with
    Christ.
    
    More as I get time.
    
    -steve

>    v. 3 says the "man of lawlessness"  will be revealed before "that day"
>    comes.  How "that day" ties in with v. 1 "...our being gathered to
>    Him..." seems important.
    
    don't forget the other translation for the word "apostacy."

    Mike and Andrew,
    
    I have resisted questioning any bullet items that are advanced. As I
    said before, I am not interested in debating pre- vs. post- but rather
    simply want to get a list together of reasons why someone would accept
    the post-trib position. Hopefully, if we resist the urge to debate why
    we think a passage may/may_not apply to post-trib, someone (Andrew?)
    will be good enough to provide this list for us.
    
    Steve, I will enjoy replying to your note as soon as I get the
    opportunity (hopefully tomorrow). Thanks for your patience.
    
    	BD�

    No prob, Barry.  Thanks!
    
    Not that this is necessary, but so y'all know - my mind isn't made up
    on the matter, though I lean toward a post-trib return and I haven't
    been interested in articulating why I do - besides the notion that I'd
    rather expect the worst and be surprised than expect the best and be
    surprised.
    
    I'm afraid I do wear "post-trib" colored glasses therefore, and tend to
    read the Scriptures from that framework.  I am definitely not well
    studied in eschatology at all - it just isn't my main focus these days. 
    
    Barry, on the other hand, is well versed and studied in this area and
    frankly, he's a pleasure to study with!  Over the years, I have been
    very much appreciative of his scholarship (though he'll deny it as such
    ;-) and more importantly, his friendship.  I appreciate him and his
    writings on the matter very much.
    
    Thanks again, Barry - I really look forward to what you've got to say
    on the bullet list.  I'll see if I can dig up a few more that have
    struck me as post- oriented and await your thoughts.
    
    Steve

Over the weekend, I was watching some TV preacher (Ya gotta love em, but compare
what they say to the Word) and he gave some interesting thoughts.

1) Consider the whole counsel of God
2) Recognize the dangers of fanaticism
3) Beware of prophetic gimmicks
4) Let God be God
5) Rise above despair

Basically, we're in what appears to be the last days, of the last days. That's
OK for me, because I'm confident of where I go, whenever, whatever happens.
As far as those who don't know, they will eventually find out, one way, or the
other. I pray it's one way, the only way. And remember...

2nd Peter 3:9

The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but
is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish, but that all
should come to repentance.

God will wait until the last possible person is saved (Those written in the book
of life from the foundation of the earth), and then, call it a day.

Bob

    Daniel 9:24 says:
    
    Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to
    finish the transgressions, and to make an end of sins, and to make
    reconciliation for iniquity, an dto bring in everlasting righteousness,
    and to seal up the visions and prophesy, and to anoint the most Holy.
    
    
    Of the six things Gabriel said would be accomplished, one or more have
    not yet taken place.  considering this list carefully, we observe that
    some of them were accomplished by Christ during His First Coming. 
    However, at least one or more will notn be accomplished until the
    Second Coming.  To prove this imortant fact the is no need to examine
    more than two of those items: one that was fulfilled at the First
    Coming, and one that will not be fulfilled until the Second Coming.
    
    "A reconciliation for iniquity" has already been accomplished (Hebrews
    2:17), as Christ was to "make reconciliation for the sins of the
    people".  He did this at Calgary.
    
    
    Another of the six works that must be accomplished is to "seal up the
    vision and prophecy".  "Seal up" is the same Hebrew word that is used
    earlier in the verse where it translated "to make an end of" sins.  So
    this word "seal up" carries the thought of the conclusion or end of a
    thing.  The word "prophecy" in this passage is really "prophet" in the
    Hebrew.  This phrase could therefore be translated as, "To make an end
    of vision and prophet".  We know that this did not happen at the First
    Coming, because we find prophets operating after that coming in the
    early Church (e.g., Acts 11:27 and 13:1).  We also understand, through
    Paul's writings, when prophecy and prophets will cease to exist.  In
    Ephesians 4:11-13 he tells us that Christ gave prophets to the Church
    until we all come to perfection.  This occurs at the Second Coming. 
    Furthermore, in I Corinthians 13:9-12 we are told that prophecy will
    cease when "that which is perfect is come" and when we see "face to
    face".
    
    
    More later.
    
    -steve

    .73 cont.
    
    The phrase "seal up the vision and prophecy" also refers to a
    fulfillment of the vision or message of the prophets.  After His death
    and Resurrection Christ returned to heaven and will remain there until
    there is a restoration of all things the prophets said would be
    restored (Acts 3:21).  One of the things they said would be restored is
    the nation of Isreal (Isaiah 1:26 and 11:11, to name two supportive
    verses that speaks of the restoration of Isreal).  According to Acts
    3:21 there must be a restoration in many areas before Christ comes
    again.  In fact, Jesus will remain in heaven until the vision of the
    prophets is fulfilled. 
    
    
    I'm not trying to connect this to a post-trib rapture, just thought it
    was an interesting example of how the OT contains prophesies that are
    more than they seem.  The Jews during the day of Christ thought He was
    coming as a conquorer, a King.  This was due to the prophesies of the
    OT that mixed Christs First Coming with His Second Coming.  This
    explains why in Luke 4:17-21, Jesus, while reading Isaiah 61:1-2,
    stopped right in the middle of the sentence, then closed the book
    saying "this day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears".  He read
    only the "proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord", and not the next
    part "and the day of vengeance of our God".  
    
    Vengeance was not why He was there the first time...that is yet to
    come, even though it is one sentence in the OT.
    
    There seem to be many other "dual" prophesies in the OT.  Many of which
    we could not understand until this last geration.
    
    -steve

    re:  .73  Steve
    
    >people".  He did this at Calgary.
    
    I didn't know he was ever in Canada.  :-)
    
    
    Steve
    
    

    8^) 

    Re .67 (Steve)
    
    Sorry for taking so long. I would take even longer, but the near future
    is looking mighty busy so I'll give up a bit of sleep for my friend
    :-). Please let me know if I haven't made myself clear in what follows.
    
    Paul is assuring the Thessalonians that the Day of the Lord (DOTL) has
    not yet come. I believe, by looking at the other passages where "DOTL"
    is used, that this term denotes that span of time commencing with the
    (pre-trib) Rapture and lasting at least until the Second Coming. (The
    most famous DOTL passages include Joel 2:31; Acts 2:20; 1 Thes. 5:2;
    2 Pet. 3:10.) It's even possible that the term isn't used in such a
    technical sense at all, but rather is a way of describing the
    culmination of the Church age. This culmination obviously includes the
    coming of Christ to mete out judgment to the lost (Matt. 25:31-46).
    
    When we read 2 Thes. 2, Paul is giving them a few events that will
    occur prior to Christ's doling out of the judgment. As you rightly
    point out, there will be the "man of lawlessness" setting himself up in
    the temple as if he were God. I believe that this event is the
    "abomination of desolation" that Jesus spoke of in Matt. 24:15 (cf.
    Dan. 9:27). I believe this happens at the 3�-year point of the
    Tribulation, and it is what we read in Rev. 13:4-8.
    
    The man of lawlessness (viz. antichrist) is currently being restrained
    (2 Thes. 2:6-7) from taking control (indeed, he may not yet be born).
    The identify of the "restrainer" would be another spirited debate, but
    I lean towards the restrainer being either the Holy Spirit or the
    Church. Not coincidentally, this fits well with a pre-trib rapture
    because once the Church is removed (and with it the indwelling Holy
    Spirit) satan will have free reign.
    
    Anyway, after the antichrist has set himself up as God in the temple
    and broken the covenant with Israel, he will then go on a rampage of
    terror for the remaining 3� years (42 months). After his time is up,
    Jesus (et al.) will return in full glory and destroy him (Rev.
    19:11-21).
    
    I agree with most of what you've said, except that I see the Day of the
    Lord as a two-phase event: The "thief in the night" unexpected
    snatching of the Church up to heaven, then (after the Tribulation) the
    public glorious appearance of the Lord to execute judgment.
    
    To summarize:
    	1. Christ calls the Church to Himself (1 Thes. 4:14-18)
    	2. Antichrist signs a pact with Israel (Dan. 9:27a); this
    	   signals the start of the 7-year tribulation
    	3. After 3� years, antichrist breaks the pact (Dan. 9:27b)
    	4. The tribulation ends with Christ's visible return to earth,
    	   and He executes judgment (Rev. 19:11-21)
    	5. Millennium (Rev. 20:1-3)
    	6. Final battle: Gog and Magog (Rev. 20:7-10)
    	7. Eternity (Rev. 20:11-end)
    
    	BD�

    If we assume that 2 Thes. 2's "Day of the Lord" is a single event, then
    I suppose a post-tribber could find support in this chapter (though the
    mid-tribbers might want to reserve this chapter for themselves ;-).
    
    So far, we have three bullets for the post-trib list:
    	- 1 Cor. 15:52 says we'll be raptured "at the last trump", and
    	  this last trump is equated to the 7th trumpet of Revelation
    	- 1 Cor. 3:13-15 talks about believers' works being tested by
    	  fire, and the tribulation is believed to be that fire
    	- 2 Thes. 2 may imply that "the coming of the Lord and our gathering
    	  together with Him" will be preceded by the revealing of the
    	  antichrist and the abomination of desolation
    
    	BD�

      Hi,
    
        I just want to remind you guys that there is a third
        option which is neither pre or post.  And that is 'non'.
    
        The position has been mentioned that the literal second 
        coming of Jesus Christ is the same event as all those
        described by the rapture!
    
        Speaking of 'rapture', have any of you ever studied when
        and why this doctrine originated?  
    
        Anyway, the 'posttrib', 'pretrib' discussion is leaving out
        that other position that was brought up.
    
                                              Tony 

Hi Tony,

Bad enough comparing two such complex stances which differ in one aspect 
only, let alone introducing one of the totally different perspectives...

�        I just want to remind you guys that there is a third
�        option which is neither pre or post.  And that is 'non'.

I think you're thinking of the 'pre- and post-millennial return' views
here, rather than 'pre- and post-trib rapture' aspects of the 
pre-millennial view...		;-)

Meanwhile ... Barry has been asking for the grounds of the pre-mill,
post-trib rapture view, and trying to gather bullet points on it.  Trouble 
is, it's a general presentation of scriptural consistency, rather than just 
isolated points.  When you examine the main prophecies aimed to give a 
coherent picture of the LORD's return, and containing the prevalent social 
order, etc, this is the clear understanding.  Or at least, mine ;-).  I've 
tried to put together something on these lines, but in order to show how 
the passages demonstrate this view, it's necessary to highlight the 
pertinent features, rather than just point to the passage - as each view 
takes its own interpretation.  Really, as Steve says, if you read with one 
view in mind, you're going to read it there regardless.  Having come from a
background which was totally different, and which I perceived as
significantly flawed, I felt I had no vested interest in the variations on
pre-millennialism, so *hoped* to be open to what scripture presents ;-).

I haven't completed what I was pulling together, but I'll enter what I 
have, because :
	� The 'collection of bullets' looks rather puny compared to the
	  weight of scriptural evidence as a whole.  
	� The 'collection of bullets' is picking up totally erronious items.
	� Time looks as though it's running away from me... ;-}

								Andrew

Our LORD's teaching on the end of the church age is concentrated in the
Olivet discourse, as recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke 21.
Matthew 24, and the parallel Mark 13 are contiguous, publicly visible event
sequences.  Luke 21 has many points in common, and certain significant
differences.

Matthew 24 states in verses 24-29
	"Immediately after the distress of those days.... At that time ...
	 the sign of the Son of Man shall appear... They will see .... "

This is addressed to Christians - to the apostles, in the first instance,
that it might be recorded for us.  The significant features of the record in
this context are:

	� The return is publicly visible [ 'They' indicates those other than
	  Christians ].
	� The return is accompanied by the rapture of the saints, as the
	  "angels ... gather the elect", in v31.
	� The return follows the events of the tribuation, both in terms of
	  human / demonic oppression, and in terms of the visitation of
	  divine physical catastrophe.

Mark 13 contains the same points, eg verse 24...

Luke 21 refers to the events leading up to the sack of Jerusalem in AD 70.
This is followed by a significant reference to the intervening days of the
gentiles before it continues with the return of the LORD. 

1 Thessalonians 4:15-16 refers to a public event, when the "LORD ... comes
down from heaven with a shout", which is both a surprise to the world, and
not a surprise to the Christians, and is therefore implicitly experienced
by both.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-12 equates the 'Day of the LORD', the physical and
visible return of the LORD Jesus to the earth, the presence of the elect, and
the destruction of the antichrist, as occurring in one event.  This
corresponds to Revelation 19:, which shows the return of the LORD, with the
specific destruction of the antichrist, leading on to the millennium.

I am aware that many would split these passages, and the events they contain,
but to me they read as meaning to portray a continuous sequence, which I see
no sound reason to break.

In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 there is the reference to the removal of restraint.
Some regard this as the removal of the Holy Spirit, assuming that this must
include the church, but this is not explicitly identified.  The 'removal' is
of 'He' (the Holy Spirit?) rather than 'they' (Holy Spirit and separately
identified church - admitedly an unlikely usage) or 'She' (which could be the
church alone).  One would imagine that as this portion of the letter is
specifically addressing the problem of what Christians on earth can expect to
be aware of concerning the LORD's return, that Paul would have highlighted
the fact if they were to be included in this removal ('This is  the bit you
were asking about').   Either way, this can be a pointer, but is not reason to
distort the plain understanding of more explicit passages.  My personal view
of this at the moment (and this is an area where I do not feel I yet have
complete evidence), is that we have a different spiritual presence in each
dispensation :

Old Covenant - The Holy Spirit affects activity on the earth, but does not
    commonly indwell people.  May annoint particular people for a role or task.

New Covenant - The Holy Spirit has a dwelling place within His own, who
    constitute the church.  He can also affect what happens on the earth in a
    physical dimension.

Tribulation - the Holy Spirit's restraining influence is removed from the
    world in general, although He still indwells His own.  This is in a measure
    in proportion to the increased faith and testing to be undergone, and in
    particular is a personal witnessing resource for use in worldly judgements.

Millennium - With Jesus' personal return to earth, the role of the Holy
    Spirit changes again.  In view of John 15, it may be a reversion to the Old
    Testament situation.  In any case, it is significantly different from
    what we know now.

The passages which refer to the separation of one from another (Matthew
24:37-41, Luke 17:26-29) are actually compared to the days of Noah and Lot,
when the righteous were preserved upon the earth while judgement was visited
upon the wicked. (cf ).  It is possible to take these to support either view,
if the final state is taken to be the millennial reign (though I see this as
inconsistent with the spirit of the passages concerned).  Another relevant
passage here is the parable of the weeds (Matthew 13:24-30,36-43), where the
weeds are explicitly consigned to the fire *before* the good grain is
harvested (v41).

The church is not mentioned in the Old Testament, as it is part of the
'mystery' which is only unfolded with salvation, and therefore we would not
expect to find many direct clues there.  The reference to 'saints' in Daniel
could be a inclusive term to cover all of God's people at that time.
Interesting choice of word...

The idea that time has to be divided rigidly between 'church' and 'Israel'
does not allow for the progressive overlap which is evident at the margin of
the change-over.  If the church started at Pentecost, in Acts 2, it puts the
commission of Matthew 28 and Acts 1 under the Old Covenant.  If it started
at the Crucifixion, the 'uninspired' question of Acts 1: comes under the
church...  Either way, it puts Jesus' life into the Old Covenant.
I see the time from Jesus' life until Pentecost as an overlap, with a steady,
and at times rapid, progression is made, with the kingdom becoming
increasingly expressed in people's hearts.

I see a similar progression from the 'Times of the Gentiles' into the
Tribulation, with the (largely Gentile) church still present, but with the
Gentile emphasis fading, as the nations move away from Godly principles, 
and we see the growing restoration of Israel to the LORD God.
This also seems to be the principle pointed to in Romans 1, 1 Timothy 3:
Matthew 24: etc, where gentile apostasy increases and faithfulness becomes 
scarce.

The enigma is that there were 2 comings foretold in the Old Testament, only
one of which was expected by the Jews.  Many now think there is a double
event in the record of Jesus next coming.  But I have significant doubts
there.

								Andrew

    For yet another opinion :-)  I would recommend Marvin Rosenthal's "The
    Pre-Wrath Rapture of the Church".  The author's view is that the
    rapture will occur sometime after the mid-point of the tribulation and
    before the outpouring of the wrath.
    
    Although my views are not exactly as Rosenthal presents, we are fairly
    close.  To me, the biggest mistake made by many is to feel that "the
    church" (i.e., every professing Christian) is going to be "raptured". 
    Indeed, I believe that the *faithful* will escape great tribulation,
    but I see nothing to indicate that this means every believer will.  In
    fact, I see scriptures indicating the contrary.
    
    On question:  if the Holy Spirit is "removed" with the church, how will
    there be salvation during the time of tribulation?  As I read the
    scriptures, it is work of the Holy Spirit to convict men of their sin.
    
    Mark L.

Barry

    I'll look at your 'pre-trib rapture' points in .34, as they seem
    important to you!

�    	- it nicely accounts for why 1 Thes. 4 provides comfort (v18)

    Though if there is no experiencing of tribulation for the church,
    'comfort' is superfluous.  Comfort is for when there is need, not when
    we're sitting comfortable.

�    	- it nicely accounts for the lack of mention of the Church
�    	  in Rev. 4-18
    Which introduces bigger problems than it answers.  If you postulate that
    2 Thessalonians 2:7 requires the removal of the Holy Spirit, it leaves no
    way for people to be saved during the tribulation, as is required if
    there are to be tribulational martyrs, as in Revelation 6:11

�    	- it allows time for the Church to enjoy the Marriage Supper
�    	  with/of the Lamb (i.e. during the tribulation)
    The Revelation 19 reference to the marriage supper, immediately
    preceding the description of the LORD's return to earth has at least
    potentially a clear break in the narrative (when John has to be
    restrained from worshipping the angel).  To follow the marriage supper by
    a departure for war seems as serious an inconsistency to me (additionally
    bearing in mind the year to stay with the bride), as any other principle
    this is taken to answer.

*�    	- it is consistent with God's love for His people (i.e. believers
*�    	  are not appointed unto wrath (1 Thes. 5:9))
    God's people are protected though it.  This is even more consistent with
    God's loving way of working.

�    	- it is consistent with God's promises (Rev. 3:10 et al.)
    Out of context.  The 7 churches represent very different spiritual
    states, all of which may exist in the world at any time.  If you take the
    view that these parallel stages in the church age, it puts us in
    Laodicea...

*�    	- it seems more reasonable than an instantaneous round-trip
*�    	  for the "return" in Rev. 19
    Either way, one or the other has to be doing a 'round trip'.  It seems
    appropriate for us to be caught up as part of the welcome to the LORD on
    His return to earth.  

�    	- it seems to maintain the distinction Jesus was apparently
�    	  making in John 5 (compare v25 w/ 28ff)
    Don't forget the two resurrections in Revelation 19:4-5, which this could
    equally apply to.

�    	- it is consistent with the fact that the tribulation is
�    	  described as the time of Jacob's trouble - for the ultimate
�    	  restoration of the Jewish people (Dan. 9:24), as the previous
�    	  69 weeks of Daniel's prophecy were focused on the Jews
    As I referred to earlier, the church is not referred to in the Old
    Testament, for obvious reasons.  Moreover, there is a particular danger
    for Israelites at this time, as it precedes their turning to the LORD,
    with its consequent protection.  We still have to see Jeremiah 30
    fulfilled.

* - There is a lot of danger from arguing from human reason, because our
    appreciation of the nature and reality of love is so flawed.  Let alone
    our understanding of the relationship between time and eternity, and how
    God is working now, towards an eternal fulfillment.

    I hope these give some indication of my understanding.  Maybe I can
    address Mike's points later...

								Andrew

Hi Mike,

    Re your 'pro-pre-trib rapture' points in .37 - I thought it might be
    helpful if I tried to skim them too...

�    - it's consistent with how God spared believers in the OT (Enoch, 
�      Noah, Lot).
    I addressed this one in .81

�    - Believers aren't judged at the same time as believers.  God always
�      deals with his people separate from the world.   
    The tribulation isn't the judgement.  
    (Incidentally, how do you account for Matthew 25:31-46?)

�    - In Genesis 18:23-25, Abraham eloquently states that God will not slay the
�      righteous with the wicked.
    No problem.  The godly are protected from the 'wrath'.  For instance in
    both Matthew 24 / Mark 13, and the Luke 21  cases, believers are warned
    how to recognise the dangers in time to flee from Jerusalem.

�    - II Thessalonians 2:1-8 contains the clearest stance in the Bible where 
�      Paul taught the church would not be here for the tribulation.....
    This is one understanding of the passage.  I do not read it this way.  To
    me it seems a clear indication that we will recognise the antichrist, and
    see in him the imminence of the LORD.

�    - Revelation 3:10 contains the message to the faithful last day church
�      that is in the Philadelphia church.  
    This chooses to equate the end time church in general with Philadelphia,
    which I do not personally see as a justifiable stance.

�    If you're of the belief that the Lord will bring you safely through the
�    tribulation, you have a problem with the many citations in Revelation
�    where saints are being killed off like flies.  
    Wrong focus.  In the tribulation, under persecution, the fear is of
    yielding to the pressure to apostasy.  *That* is what all the antichrist's
    antagonism aims to work in us, for his master the devil, and that is what
    we are preserved from.  Strength for the day.  There is no special
    significance in keeping physical life.  It's eternal life that's at stake
    here.

�    The hour of trial in Revelation 3:10 is referred to only one other time
�    in that book by John.  Revelation 14:7 is where you'll find it.  John 5:24
�    says that believers will not experience this.  Romans 8:1 says those in
�    Christ will not be condemned.  We have been saved from ever experiencing 
�    the wrath of God.  We may experience the world's trials, but will not 
�    experience God's trials.  Grace can't be grace if mixed with anything else.
    I believe I've covered this one above.

    Phew!   Nothing personal, Mike.  Hope this is at least of interest,
    though I doubt you'd find it helpful ;-)  Though it may help your soul to
    bear with such error..... ;-)

    I've about exhausted my time here, except for an important ommission from
    Barry's .34 which I see I've yet to cover....

						God bless
                                                       Andrew

I find I missed one of Barry's from .34:

�    	- anything other than pre-trib destroys imminency

    The commonly understood representation of this doctrine has no foundation
    in scripture.  'Imminency' is generally understood to mean that the LORD
    Jesus can return at any moment throughout the church era, totally
    unannounced, and unexpected.   I actually thought this was just an
    A-Millenial teaching....

    The imminency doctrine conflicts with the teaching of the LORD Jesus in
    Matthew 24 and 1 Thessalonians 5, in which He says that we will recognise
    the signs and the times very clearly, so as to not be taken by surprise.
    While we recognise the dawning of deeper fulfillments today, imminency
    could not be held to apply throughout time.

    I believe that the 'imminency' doctrine comes from our LORD saying that
    no-one knows the day or the hour..., in Matthew 24.  But to say that
    no-one can precisely predict when an event *will* occur is very different
    from saying that it may occur at any point in time.  Might sound like
    nit-picking, but I submit that it's not!

    The preceding replies are all - more than - I've got time for, and very
    skimpy, necessarily having immense omissions but I hope it's enough to
    give some sort of coherent picture.

    Note that all views I express are usually my own... ;-)

						God bless
                                                       Andrew

    >                         -< There's A Third Position >-
    
    If you want to be technical, there's a 4th as well: the Mid-trib
    position.  The non- and the mid- are the weakest arguments of them all
    and are usually not even considered by Biblical scholars and
    eschatology experts.

    re: Barry
    
    Thanks :-)
    
    I was going to get to Matt. 24 as suggesting *post*, but Andrew beat me
    to it.
    
    More bullets to come (my, that sounds much more violent than it needs
    to be ;-).
    
    Steve

    Re: non-rapture position
    
    Some offline correspondence reminded me of something that should be put
    in here.  Supporters of this position point to the gap theory between
    Daniel's 69th and 70th weeks (Daniel 9:24-27) as saying the 70 weeks
    have already been fulfilled.  
    
    It's true that there is a gap between verses 25 and 27 and this isn't 
    unusual in prophetic writings.  Look at Ephesians 3:4-9.  Paul talks about 
    how the OT prophets saw the Messaianic writings as a straight road, without 
    seeing the dips in the road.  God had to work through the Gentiles and 
    bring them into the church as well and the OT writers never anticipated 
    that.  Luke 4:14-21 elaborates on this.  Jesus was quoting Isaiah 61:1-2, 
    but if you read verse 2 you noticed that He stopped at the comma.  The 
    Jews saw it as 1 event in the same day.  This was probably one of the 
    reasons why they reacted so strangely to Him reading that text.  The first 
    coming was for forgiveness, grace, and a way out of the coming wrath.  The 
    second coming (rest of verse 2) was the time of wrath.  There's a gap 
    between the 2 events.  This is why those that feel the final week should've 
    happened 7 years after the Messiah's entry into Jerusalem are wrong.
    
    Mike

What does the Bible call the time of tribulation?
-------------------------------------------------
A Time of Trouble - Daniel 12:1
The Time of Jacob's Trouble - Jeremiah 30:4-7
The Great Day of the Lord - Zephaniah 1:14-18, I Thessalonians 5:2,
            Revelation 6:16-17
The Great Tribulation - Matthew 24:21,29; Revelation 2:22, Revelation 7:14
The Wrath of God - Zephaniah 1:15, Revelation 6:16-17, 14:10, 15:1, 16:1, 11:18

Note: the term wrath is never used in the Bible to refer to Hell or the Lake of
Fire.  The use of the word wrath refers to God's wrath against sin which is
specifically poured out during the Great Tribulation.

Who will experience the wrath of God?
-------------------------------------
The Ungodly and the Unrighteous - Romans 1:18
Children of Wrath - Ephesians 2:3
Sons of Disobedience - Ephesians 5:6, Colossians 3:6
Babylon the Great - Revelation 16:19
The Nations - Revelation 19:15
Israel - Jeremiah 30:4-7, Zechariah 13:8-9
The Tribulation Saints - Revelation 13:7-10

Note: the purpose of this Great Tribulation caused by the outpouring of God's
wrath is fourfold:

    1. To test those who dwell upon the earth - Revelation 3:10
    2. That God might pour out His wrath on the wicked - Revelation 15:7
    3. To destroy those who destroy the earth - Revelation 11:18
    4. To purge the nation of Israel - Daniel 11:35, Zechariah 13:8-9

Who will not go through this period of God's Wrath?
---------------------------------------------------
The Church is promised deliverance from the wrath of God -
    I Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:4,5,8,9; Luke 21:36, Revelation 3:10

Remember there is a difference between the wrath of the world against the Church
and the wrath of God against the world.  Jesus clearly stated that the Church
would suffer the wrath of the world in John 16:33.  The Church will face
tribulation in the world from the Satanic world system.  Satan is the one behind
these attacks on the Church.  Paul tells us about this in Ephesians 6:12.  The
Great Tribulation manifesting the wrath of God, originates not from Satan, but
from God and is not directed towards the Church, but towards a rebellious world.

The Pre-Tribulation Rapture (I Thessalonians 4:16-17)
-----------------------------------------------------
The Bible teaches that the Church will be "caught up" to be with the Lord before
the Great Tribulation, the outpouring of God's wrath, is allowed to come upon
the earth.  The term Rapture is taken from the Latin word "rapere" which is used
in the Latin translation of the Scripture (the Vulgate) for the phrase "caught
up" in I Thessalonians 4:17.  The Latin word "rapture" means to be in ecstasy,
so verse 17 was translated, "caught up into ecstasy (rapture)."  The term
"Rapture" has now come to describe the translation of the Church - which we know
will be a rapturous experience indeed!

Old Testament Pictures of the Rapture
-------------------------------------
Enoch - Genesis 5:21-24.  Enoch was a preacher of righteousness in a very wicked
        world that was heading for a deluge of the wrath of God (Jude 14-15).
        Enoch knew the wrath of God was coming and he proclaimed the coming of
        judgment.  Before the wrath was poured out, God took him.

Lot - The valley of cities of Sodom and Gomorrah had sinned so grossly that they
      were to be exterminated.  But before God could pour out His judgment of
      wrath upon these wicked cities, believing Lot and his family had to first
      be removed.  The angel sent by the Lord to destroy the city could do
      nothing until Lot was taken.  out of Sodom and safely to another place
      (Genesis 19:22).  This supports God removing his people before performing
      His judgment (Genesis 18:23,25).

New Testament Promises
----------------------
1. II Thessalonians 2:1-8

Other verses: Zephaniah 1:14-18, Acts 2:20, Joel 2:1-2,10-11, I Thessalonians
5:2, Isaiah 13:9-11, II Peter 3:10, Revelation 6:17, Zechariah 14.

Someone had upset the Church of Thessalonica by telling them that they were in
the period called the Day of the Lord or Great Tribulation.  Had they been
taught by Paul that they were going to go all the way through the tribulation -
or even mid-way through - they would not have been shaken from their composure
or disturbedness.  The Church was disturbed because they were being told they
were in the Great Tribulation and they had never expected this.  They were ready
to be persecuted by the world (John 16:33) but not to be the objects of God's
wrath!  See also I Thessalonians 1:10, 5:9.

Paul calms their fears by telling them that they are not in the tribulation
and the tribulation cannot come until there is first an apostasy and the one
who now restrains is taken out of the way.  The words "the apostasy" are "he
apostasia" in Greek and have been translated "falling away" in KJV.  The primary
meaning of the word "apostasia" is "defection", "revolt", or "rebellion" against
God.  But there is another meaning - it can be translated disappearance or
departure.  II Thessalonians 2:3 could also read:

"Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except
 there come a disappearance (or departure) first, and that man of sin be
 revealed, the son of perdition;"

Some have seen a reference to the rapture of the Church and not just a reference
to and end-time apostasy.

The Restrainer
--------------
Before the day of the Lord can come, Paul tells the Thessalonians the son of
destruction, the antichrist, must first be revealed.  He cannot be revealed
until "what restrains him now" or "he who restrains" is "taken out of the way."
Who is the Restrainer?  It's the Holy Spirit working through the Church!  The
church is spoken of as salt and light (Matthew 5:13-14).  Salt restrains
contamination and decomposition.  Light restrains one from being enveloped by
darkness (Ephesians 5:8, II Corinthians 4:4).

2. I Thessalonians 1:9-10

The word wrath in the Bible can refer to God's general wrath against sin (Romans
1:18) and also of God's wrath which will be poured out in the Great Tribulation
(Revelation 6:17, 14:10,19, 15:1,7 16:1).

The word wrath is never used to refer to hell or to the lake of fire.  This
verse refers to our having been delivered "from the wrath to come."  This future
wrath from which we have been delivered is not the lake of fire or hell, because
Jesus has already saved us from these by His atoning death and glorious
resurrection.  The future wrath that the Church is saved from is spoken of in
this verse, the wrath of the Great Tribulation.  Jesus is coming specifically to
deliver His Church, His Bride, from the Great Tribulation.

3. Revelation 3:10

This faithful end-time Church is promised to be kept from the hour of trial or
the tribulation described in the following chapters of Revelation (chapters
6-19).  The sphere of this trial is worldwide, to test those who dwell on the
earth.

This verse does not say that the Church will be kept safe during the trial, the
tribulation.  It says that the Church will be kept from the very "hour" of
trial.  The Church will be kept *from* the actual time of the Great Tribulation.

The word translated in English "kept from" is "tereo ek" in Greek, meaning "kept
out" or "kept out of."  If Jesus had meant the Church would be protected
"within" the trial, He would have used "tereo ev" "kept in" (as in Acts 12:5,
25:4, I Peter 1:4, Jude 21), or "tereo eis" "kept into", or "tereo dia", "kept
through."  The words the Lord Jesus uses are specific and wonderfully chosen!
"Tereo ek" - "kept out of" means the church will not be in, into, or through the
tribulation at all!

The Clincher
------------
If this passage in Revelation 3:10 only means that the Church will be kept safe
throughout the tribulation as some have taught, then you have a major problem on
your hands!  The problem is this, all through the tribulation, "saints" are
being killed on a massive scale (see Revelation 6:9-11, 11:7, 12:30,17,
13:7,10,15, 14:13, 17:6, 18:24).  If these martyrs are church age saints then
they are *not* being kept safe and the promise to the Church in Revelation 3:10
is an error or it is meaningless.  Only as we distinguish between the Church-age
saints and the tribulation saints does the promise of Revelation 3:10 make any
sense.

The term saints can refer to people saved in the Old Testament, under the Old
Covenant (Psalms 34:9, 89:5,7) as well as those who are redeemed by the Lord
Jesus Christ in the New Covenant (I Corinthians 1:12).

The existence of the saints in the tribulation does not prove the Church is
going through the tribulation.  The term refers to those who are saved by God in
each specific dispensation.

The promise of Revelation 3:10 is that the church will be taken up out of the
sphere of the tribulation before the hour of testing comes upon the earth.
Those people converted during the tribulation (Revelation 7) are the saints
spoken of throughout the Book of Revelation.  They are martyred during the Great
Tribulation.

4. Revelation 3:10 tells us that the Church will be kept from the hour of trial
   that is to come upon the whole world.

The hour of trial is referred to again in the Book of Revelation in 14:7.  The
Church has been promised immunity from this hour of trial coming upon the whole
world.  The Great Tribulation is God's great judgment upon this world.  John
5:24 specifically tells us we will never come into judgment.  Romans 8:1 says
that there is no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus.

    Thank you Andrew. I appreciate the time you've taken to think through
    and reply. I have printed out your stuff and will give it more
    attention offline. Thanks again!
    
    	BD�

    Re: the restrainer
    
    To say authoritatively that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit is, to
    me, a bit of conjecture.  Another possibility that I have heard
    suggests that the restrainer being spoken of is Apollyon (Rev 9), who
    is spoken of as being in a place of authority over the abyss
    ("bottomless pit").  The beginning of the chapter relates how a "star"
    falls from heaven and is given the key to the abyss, and how four
    "angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates" are released to
    wreak destruction on the earth.
    
    Re: Rev 3:10
    
    This promise is spoken to the faithful.  I believe that the faithful
    *will* be kept from the time of great tribulation.  However, to
    extrapolate the promise apply to "the church" is again a questionable
    tact to take.  Consider "promises" made to others of the 7 churches in
    Revelation 2 and 3, where the unfaithful are warned to repent or face
    the consequences.  Thus, the promise of Rev. 3:10 is *not* violated if
    there are (unfaithful, unworthy) believers who endure the tribulation.
    
    Re: the bride
    
    Will all believers be part of the bride?  I don't think so.  Again, I
    believe that it is those who are faithful and obedient to the Lord who
    will make up the bride.  Others will be saved, and we are told that it
    is even a great privilege to be invited to the marriage feast of the
    Lamb and the bride.
    
    What do I believe overall about this subject?  I believe that the
    faithful who are alive will be caught up to heaven (raptured) prior to
    the great tribulation.  (I believe that the type of this is the man
    child in Rev. 12).  I believe that there will be believers who are not
    worthy who will not be raptured and will remain on earth during the
    great tribulation, as an opportunity for their repentance.  It is a
    warning to us to live holy, obedient lives, or face potential
    consequences.
    
    Enough for now.
    
    Mark L.

    I will have more to put in here tomorrow but I thought I'd throw a
    couple of lines in now.
    
    First, Romans 7:4 seems to me to say that all believers are considered
    as the bride.  There is another scripture, can't remember where it is
    and I don't have my concordance, that speaks of those joined in earthly
    marriage as one flesh but those joined to God have become one spirit.
    
    Second, the Day of the Lord always speaks of the judgement or wrath of
    God but there is a second phrase referring to the day of Jesus Christ
    or the day of the Lord Jesus Christ which always refers to the catching
    away.  The implication in my mind is that these are two separate
    events.
    
    Finally, we are told to look forward to that blessed hope, the catching
    away, when Christ shall return for His own.  The key is that we are to
    be watching and waiting for the return of Jesus Christ, not the
    antichrist who will come to power during the tribulation.  If the
    rapture is post-trib then the beginning of the tribulation would simply
    mean a countdown to ultimate victory.  While it's true that we may not
    be able to pinpoint the beginning (some have said that we are in the
    tribulation now) there are specific events associated with the reign of
    the antichrist such as the profaning of the temple which would provide
    a reasonable timeline.
    
    Kent
    

>    To say authoritatively that the "restrainer" is the Holy Spirit is, to
>    me, a bit of conjecture.  Another possibility that I have heard
    
    just to pick a nit: it's the Holy Spirit through the Church

    *  Christ will remain seated until all His enemies are defeated.
    
    Hebrews 10:12-13 tells us that after Christ had offered one sacrifice
    for sins forever He "sat down at the right hand of God, from that time
    waiting till His evemies are made His footstool."
    
    This would suggest that the Church will have to be victorious over all
    Christ's enemies, before He will come in the clouds.
    
    It is evident in I Corinthians 15:25-26 and 51-54 that there will be no
    Rapture until all His enemies are placed under His feet.  The last
    enemy to be conquored will be death, and Paul says death is conquered
    in the Rapture (verse 54).
    
    I would assume that the Antichrist is an enemy that must be conquered
    before the final enemy (death) can be conquered in the Rapture.
    
    This shows us that the Church will at least see the defeat of the
    Antichrist before Christ returns for it, defeating death- the last
    enemy.
    
    The Church has been given "power...over all the power of the enemy"
    (Luke 10:19).  It's up to us to use it in the end times to win victory
    for Christ.
    
    -steve

      So...
    
          does any of this endtime prophecy have anything to do
          with justification by faith?
    
          What is the reason for all that will transpire in the
          endtimes?  How relevent is what will happen to the
          gospel?
    
          I'll post a set  of replies that will summarize how I
          understand it and the position I have is 100% relevent
          to justification - and nothing else!!!
    
                                               Tony

    I apologize in advance as this is slightly longer than 100 lines.  I
    tried not to elaborate on points already made but for the sake of
    continuity I have included them.
    
    This is a chronological summary of events as I understand them.  I take 
    a pre-tribulation/pre-millennial view but I have a great respect for 
    the other views posted here so far. 
    
       1.   69 of the 70 weeks spoken of in Daniel 9.
       2.   Times of the Gentiles - a.k.a. The Church Age, a.k.a. Now. 
       3.   Rapture of the Saints - a.k.a. The Catching Away.  
       4.   Judgment Seat of Christ - The judgment of the righteous.  
       5.   Tribulation - a.k.a. The Seventieth Week.  
       6.   The Second Coming
       7.   Battle of Armageddon
       8.   The Millennial Reign of Christ
       9.   Great White Throne Judgment - The judgment of the wicked
       10.  Satan cast into the Lake of Fire
       11.  New Heavens and New Earth established
    
    Seventy Weeks -
    
       I may be giving background which is already understood but I haven't 
    seen it, and since it is important, I will throw it out here for 
    discussion.
    
       The seventy weeks spoken of in Daniel 9 refers exclusively to the 
    Jewish people and Jerusalem.  It is not referring to the Church.
    
    Daniel 9:24 - Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy 
    holy city...
    
    Daniel's people were the Jews and the holy city is Jerusalem.
    
       The word "weeks" is mis-rendered and should rather be read as 
    "Seventy sevens".  The Hebrew word shavu'im and it's Greek equivalent 
    hebdomades mean simply "sevens".  Although sevens of years is not 
    directly stated it is understood from verse 2 that Daniel was thinking 
    in terms of years and not some other unit of measure.  These 70 sevens 
    of years (490) were determined to accomplish six things:
    
       a.   "To finish the transgression" - Restoration of Israel, not as a 
       	    	    nation but to God.  Romans 11:25-26
       b.   "To make an end of sins" - To finally dispose of, or seal up as 
       	    	    in prison, so that they will never break forth again.
       c.   "To make reconciliation for iniquity" - atonement.
       d.   "To bring everlasting righteousness"
       e.   "To seal up the vision and prophecy"
       f.   "To anoint the Most Holy"
    
       The 70 sevens are divided into three groups of sevens: 7 sevens, 62 
    sevens and 1 seven.  This period of 70 sevens is initiated by "the 
    going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem" 
    (v25).  Fulfilled in the month Nisan in the twentieth year of 
    Artaxerxes the king (Neh 2:1) or March 14, 445 B.C..  The end point of 
    the 69 sevens (483 years) is the appearance of the Messiah as the 
    Prince of Israel.  This was fulfilled at the triumphal entry into 
    Jerusalem where Jesus offered himself to the populace as the prince and 
    king of Israel (Zech 9:9, Luke 19:28-44, Matt 21:1-11).  Assuming a 
    year of 360 days (30 day months are implied by a comparison of Genesis 
    7:11 and 8:4 with 7:24 and 8:3) and a beginning point of March 14, 445 
    B.C., the triumphal entry can be dated at April 6, A.D. 32.  After this 
    the "Messiah shall be cut off".  This was accomplished at the 
    crucifixion (Isaiah 53:8).
    
    At this point the Church Age is begun, the purpose of which is "to 
    gather out a people for His name" from among the Gentiles (Acts 
    15:14-18).  The crucifixion is the demarcation of the old and new 
    covenants.  The counting of the weeks has stopped.  If the Church was 
    to be included in the seventy sevens then there would have been no 
    break from verse 26 and 27 and the 70 sevens would have concluded but 
    the very fact that we are still here implies that this is not the case.  
    Therefor, one must distinguish between what will happen to Israel and 
    what will happen to the Church.  The Church will go through tribulation 
    from the world, but be of good cheer for Jesus Christ has overcome the 
    world.  Israel will go through the Great Tribulation, the 70th seven, 
    and will emerge a pure and holy remnant.
    
    Blessed Hope - 
    
    Although the word imminence is never used in Scripture, the doctrine of 
    imminence is not unbiblical as has been suggested.  It can be summed up 
    in Titus 2:11-14.  We, all believers, are to keep ourselves pure and 
    ready for the return of our Lord.  This blessed hope, which Paul speaks 
    of, is the catching away of the saints.  1 Thess 1:10 says that we are 
    to wait for the "Son from heaven".  Luke 21:28 says that when the signs 
    of the end are evident that we are to look up in expectation of our 
    redemption.  We are not looking for the antichrist but the Christ.  
    This is significant in that, if the rapture was after the tribulation, 
    then, contrary to Scripture which says that we will know the times and 
    seasons, the signs and circumstances but not the day, we would know 
    with great precision when it would happen.  Looking back at Daniel we 
    see, arising from the ten horns, the little horn which overcomes three 
    others.  This is obviously the antichrist, who would declare himself to 
    be God (2 Thess 2:3-4), profane the sanctuary, prohibit the sacrifices 
    and offerings and build an altar to idols over the altar of Jehovah 
    (Dan 8:9-12).  This event literally has occurred in the person of 
    Antiochus Epiphanes who reigned from 175-164 B.C. toward the end of the 
    Syrian dynasty as recorded in the writings of Josephus and the Books of 
    the Maccabees.  The duration of the sacrilege is recorded in verse Dan 
    8:14. The AV says 2,300 days until the cleansing of the temple.  The 
    word "days" is a rendering of evening morning.  Many scholars have 
    interpreted this to be the interruption of the evening and morning 
    sacrifices or, more literally, 1,150 days.  This is the same amount of 
    time which Antiochus Epiphanes profaned the temple before the temple 
    order could be righted again under the Maccabees.  While Antiochus did 
    fulfill much of the Daniel 8 description there are pointers that this 
    also refers to the antichrist.  For example, he will come to power at 
    the end of the "times of the Gentiles", namely, "the time of the end" 
    (Dan 8:17).  "He shall stand up against the Prince of princes" is 
    likely a reference to the final act of self-exaltation, the battle of 
    Armageddon.  At the beginning of the 70th seven, the antichrist will 
    make a covenant with the apostate Jews for seven years (Dan 9:27).  At 
    the mid-point of that covenant the antichrist will break that covenant 
    and we see the "abomination of desolation".  From this point it will be 
    1,260 days (Rev 11:3;12:6) or 42 months (Rev 11:2) or "time, times and 
    half a time" (Dan 12:7; Rev 12:14).  With these time measurements in 
    hand the believer could, with reasonable accuracy, predict a 
    post-tribulation rapture once the Great Tribulation begins.
    
       The Day of the Lord is ALWAYS associated with God's judgment and 
    destruction of the wicked (Isaiah 2:12, 13:6,9; Jeremiah 46:10; Ezekiel 
    13:5, 30:3; Joel 1:15, 2:1,11,31, 3:14; Amos 5:18,20; Obadiah 1:15; 
    Zephaniah 1:7,14; Zechariah 14:1; Malachi 4:5; Acts 2:20 [re:Joel 
    2:31]; 1 Thess 5:2; 2 Peter 3:10).  1 Thess 5:3 says that "they", that 
    is the unbeliever, shall say peace and safety but sudden destruction 
    shall come and "they" shall not escape. But for the believer, "God has 
    not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus 
    Christ".  Luke 21:36 says that the believer will escape, ALL these 
    things that shall come to pass.  Rev 3:10 says that we will be kept 
    from the hour of trial.  The Greek in this verse says literally "out of 
    the hour of trial".
    
    All for now...
    

>          endtimes?  How relevent is what will happen to the gospel?
    
Romans 8:1  There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in 
    Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

      Hi Mike,
    
        Beautiful gospel verse, but no...that's not the one I was
        looking for.
    
        Hebrews 11:39,40
        And these all, having obtained a good report through faith,
        _received not the promise_:
        God having provided some better thing for us, _that they without
        us should not be made perfect_.
    
        1 Corin 15:28,29
        And when all things shall be subdued unto him [even our hearts
        perfectly subdued unto Him, i.e. no rebellion (sin)], then shall
        the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things
        under him, that God may be all in all.
        Else what shall they do _which are baptized for the dead_, if the
        dead rise not at all?  Why are they then baptized for the dead?
    
        I believe that something must be accomplished through God's people
        _and_ that which is accomplished can only be done so when God's
        people have oppurtunity and are willing to receive Him to a 
        certain fulness.  As with individuals, so with corporate bodies.
    
        God provides some better thing for the last generation and it is
        something that must be provided through them by God for "they
        without us should not be made perfect."  This (last) generation is
        experientially fully baptized and this baptism is something that
        accomplishes something "for the dead."
    
        Anyway, Mike, I'm thinking along the lines of the covenant which
        awaits fulfillment (Hebrews 9:10-13).  The meat referred to in
        Hebrews is not _peripheral nongospel_ food.  It is the gospel...
        just a fuller understanding of it.
    
        I'm not talking about a small nugget's worth of gospel truth 
        such that faith in it converts the heart, I'm talking about such
        a fulness of the gospel that it eradicates sin from the experience.
    
        And I'm referring to a generation that does something for the 
        dead that is essential.  (God of course doing it through that
        generation...Heb 11:39,40).
    
                                                   Tony
                       

Snarf

    Paul,
    
    I hope that wasn't and end times snarf. :-)

    Well, I've got a minute, so I thought I'd enter a few thoughts here.
    
    Some thoughts from Matt 24:
    
      6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not
        troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is
        not yet.
      7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against
        kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and
        earthquakes, in divers places.
      8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.
    
    The Lord is speaking of the "beginning of sorrows", which is usually
    understood to be the first half of the 7-year period of tribulation.
    He goes on, still speaking of the beginning of sorrows, to say:
    
     12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax
        cold.
    
    Thus, the period of the beginning of sorrows will be a time when many
    will deny their faith -- their love will wax cold.  I can only see this
    as speaking of believers, and it correlates with the apostacy spoken of
    in 2 Thes. 2:3.  Thus, I cannot accept that believers will be "removed"
    at or before the onset of the tribulation.
    
    The Lord continues and says:
    
     13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
     
    Thus, deliverance is assured to the one that will endure.
    
    Then, the Lord begins telling about the next period:
    
     15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken
        of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth,
        let him understand:)
     21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the
        beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    
    At the end of the period of great tribulation:
    
     30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and
        then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see
        the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great
        glory.
     31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and
        they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one
        end of heaven to the other.
    
    This would correlate with 1 Thes 4
     16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with
        the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the
        dead in Christ shall rise first:
    
    If you believe that 1 Thes 4 is speaking of an event prior to the end
    of the tribulation, then you have to decide:  are there two second
    comings (1 Thes 4 and again at the end of the tribulation), or do the
    events of 1 Thes 4 occur before the end of the tribulation and those
    caught up in the air float around with the Lord for 7 years?  I believe
    that 1 Thes 4 is speaking of the Lord's return to the earth at the end
    of the tribulation, when He returns to establish His kingdom.  Verse 14
    indicates that He will bring with Him those who "sleep".
    
    Well, that's all I have time for now.
    
    Mark L.

Didn't find a reply with this in it's content, so...

Years ago, I was taught that the US of A isn't mentioned in the Bible, except
for one placem where they said it was referred to

Isaiah 18:1

Woe to the land shadowing with wings, which is beyond the rivers of Cush: That
sendeth ambassadors by the sea, even in vessels of bulrushes upon the waters,
saying, Go ye swift messengers, to a nation scattered and stripped, to a people
terrible from their beginning to this time; a nation measured by line, and
trodden down, whose land the rivers have laid waste!

-Land shadowing with wings- The eagle, symbolic of our nation
-to a people terrible from their beginning to this time- Yep, sound like US
-a nation measured by line, and trodden down- we have the most intricate road
system in the world, measured out to more miles than any other country
-whose land the rivers have laid waste- at the time, they said this was by
pollution, but now, look at the results of floods in the midwest.

Does this mean we, as a nation, are not a part of the things that will come?
Does the EC become the dominant force in the world? Does our country go bankrupt
and someone forecloses on the land? (We do owe a lot of money, and to whom do we
owe it?) Do we (GOD FORBID!) break our alliance with Israel? Does the corruption
from within continue to the point where God has to judge the nation with His
wrath?

Just wondering...

Bob

      Hi,
    
        The main thing I share with people that believe the rapture is
        before the time of trouble is scripture's accounts of the birds
        that are pictured eating carcasses.
    
        (By the way, my own belief as has been stated is that the literal
        2nd coming of Christ is the only time Christ comes to receive His 
        own and the texts believed to speak of a rapture actually are 
        describing the 2nd coming.)
    
        But, anyway...
    
        Luke 17 contains many texts believed to refer to the rapture.  The
        chapter finishes with the following descriptive verse...
    
        Luke 17:37
        And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord?  And he said
        unto them, Wheresoever the body is, _thither will the eagles be
        gathered together_.
    
        So here's a description of eagles flying around dead bodies.
    
        Next, check out Rev 19:17-21.  Here is a text that from a time
        standpoint is at the same time as the literal second coming of
        Jesus Christ (in fact ch. 20 opens with the millenium).
    
        If you look at those verses in ch. 19, you can see the same 
        allusion to birds flying around a bunch of dead flesh - clearly
        the exact same event as Luke 17.
    
        Further support that it is after the time of trouble is the fact
        that the persecutors during the time of trouble are all destroyed
        during this event (the beast and false prophet - see verse 20).
    
        Another interesting thing that links the events of Luke 17 to
        Rev 19 is the use of the term 'taken.'
    
        Interestingly, every 'rapture proponent' I have ever talked with
        tells me that it is the saved who are _taken_.  But, this is not
        according to the Word.  Luke 17 says the events (identified by 
        some as rapture events) are like the days of Noah.  Well, if one
        read of the flood, they would find that those that DROWNED were
        _taken_.  If one reads Rev 19:20, it will be seen that the beast
        is _taken_.
    
        When the saved are left and the lost are taken is the time of the
        2nd advent and scripture does aid our study when we link the 
        prophetic with line upon line studies by using recurring words
        (in this case _left_ and _taken_ and the common description of
        birds gathered about dead bodies).
    
                                                     Tony

    Bob, (welcome) it's true every generation has felt like we do today,
    but we are experiencing events today that none of those did.  These
    events just happen to be requirements for Christ's return.  Israel had not 
    been restored to the Land (happened in 1948).  They were not in control of 
    Biblical Jerusalem (the Old City - happened in 1967).  There has been no 
    Temple to fulfill what Jesus, Paul, and John predicted (construction
    plans are on the drawing board as we speak).  Babylon was in ruins
    (Saddam Hussein is rebuilding it).  Europe has been in separated pieces,
    remnants of the breakup of the old Roman Empire (now we have the EUC).  
    Now it isn't just one of these: it's *ALL* of them!  Every element of the 
    classic, centuries old, prophetic scenario is now moving into place.  With 
    increasing velocity.  The more one knows about the Biblical scenario, the 
    more obvious it becomes.  

    The Jews were scattered all over the earth, and it was prophesied that
    they would return en masse in the last days, most of them from the
    north.  Those who have been to Moscow recently know that the Russia has
    cleared the Jews their to return home.  A friend had the fortune of
    witnessing prophecy being fulfilled in the Moscow airport: hundreds of
    Jews in line, waiting to board an El Al 747 heading to Israel.  And
    this happens on a daily basis!  Gives me goose bumps just thinking about
    it!

    If you study generation sizes in the genealogies of the Bible, they're
    typically 58 years long.  Jesus said 1 generation will not pass away
    before we see these things come to pass.  That sets a target of 2006
    (1948+58) but I'll be shocked if we're here by the year 2000.

    Mike

Axis shift:

I did actually know that the earth wobbled.  This was observed by satellite,
or by triangulation on earth.  Oh... basically, they stuck a stick in
the ground at the north pole and were able to measure the wobble.
Or was it the south pole.  Argh!

I hadn't heard about the axis shift thought though.  Interesting.

About polar ice cap growth - discounts the theory of global warming (which
I think is hooey) - and has it grown as much?  Figure that a lot of water
would have to be redirected (and captured in ice) to create the weight
needed to imbalance the planet.  The axis tilt as we know it helps to balance
these and renew our water resources (evaporating water from salty oceans and
raining fresh water - what a system! - as well as frezzing and thawing polar 
regions).

Mark

>    	I would say the end should come sometime between 1965 to 2035 with
>    is enough of a window for the 5000 year earth axis shift.  The same
>    earth axis shift that Noah experienced.
    
    You're starting to sound like Nostradamus as portrayed in Wednesday
    night's NBC show "Ancient Prophecies."  I've never seen any scientific
    evidence for such a shift.  In addition, God poured out his wrath with
    water in the flood.  Why would he have another shift this time when His
    wrath will be poured out with fire?
    
    Mike

    does lava contain brimstone?  I know nuclear technology does.

>does lava contain brimstone?

Sometimes.

Brimstone is simply an old word for sulfur.

/john

      Hi,
    
        Actually, I believe the unquenchable fire and fire and brimstone
        are allusions to God's love unveiled - which if unveiled, causes
        sin to destroy the unsaved.
    
        Song of Solomon 8:6,7
        Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for
        love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals
        thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame.
        Many waters cannot quench love, neither can the floods drown it:
        if a man would give all the substance of his house for love, it
        would be utterly contemned.
    
        There it is.  Love is fire and it is unquenchable.  It is
        consuming.  _Nothing_ can put it out.
    
                                                         Tony
    
        

    Hi everyone!  I don't usually post here but I just had to this time.  I
    know that what follows isn't going to fit with what most of you believe
    but please just take a few minutes and read it.  Let me say at this
    point that I have read many, many book on end-time prophesies (remember
    Hal Lindsey?) and I used to believe as a lot of you do,  but there were
    just a few too many little details that didn't fit.  This seems to be
    the most complete picture I can find and this is from the Bible.  Not
    my opinion or anyone else's opinion.  Please be gentle when you rake me
    over the coals.  
    
    God Bless you all,
    Janet
    
    
                    Sequence and Order of Final Events
		    ----------------------------------

�Time of Trouble (the Tribulation).                      Daniel 12:1

------------------No one can be saved after this point-----------------------
		(Just as when God shut the door on Noah)

�Seven Last Plagues                                      Revelation 16

�Partial Resurrection, some righteous                    Daniel 12:1-2
 and some wicked, takes place in connection with
 the the time of trouble. See Revelation 1:7.

�Jesus Christ's second coming.                           Revelation 19:11-16

�The wicked perish. Killed by the Glory, 
 Power, and Majesty of Jesus' second comming.

�All righteous dead raised by Jesus and ascend           Revelation 20:4-6
 to heaven. (Jesus does not touch the Earth here)
    All righteous receive the gift and
 reward of immortality. Judgement of the wicked begins
 and continues for 1000 literal years.
 Length of punishment of the wicked determined.

�Satan confined to the earth during the 1000 literal     Revelation 20:1-3
 years. Satan cannot go to other worlds and planets
 to tempt and annoy the inhabitants. Confined
 1000 literal years to a state of hopeless
 inactivity. Satan is in prison (there is no one for him to tempt).
 Satan, his evil angels, and wicked are being judged by Jesus
 and the righteous saints.

�At the end of the 1000 literal years Jesus raises       Revelation 20:4-10
 the wicked dead.

�Jesus Christ and the righteous saints return to         Revelation 20:7-10
 the earth. New Jerusalem, the Holy City, comes
 down from Heaven.  For a vivid, beautiful, breath-
 taking description of the New Jerusalem, see
 Revelation 21.

�Satan is let out of prison and he tries to take over    Revelation 20:7-10
 the New Jerusalem, the Holy City. He fails.

�Satan, his evil angels, the beast, the     		 Revelation 20:7-10
 false prophet (the same as the
 two-horned beast in Revelation 13:11-18)
 and all wicked humans are burned for the length of
 time determined by the judgement that took place
 for 1000 years. See Revelation 20:11-15. Literal
 fire is used here.  This fire also completely purifies
 the earth.  Note that there is no eternally burning hell.
 (Eternal punishment, not eternal punishing).
    
Note: (a) 1st heaven is the atmospheric heaven,
      (b) 2nd heaven is the planetary heaven,
      (c) 3rd Heaven, high above the others, is
          where God's residence is (Revelation 2:7,
          Revelation 22:1-2, 2 Corinthians 12:2,
          Revelation 12:5, Zechariah 6:13,
          Revelation 21:2).

�New earth and new heaven.                               Revelation 21
 Sin will never exist again.
    

re.114

Janet,

Rake you over the coals? Good heavens! Is that what's come to around here?

>Satan is let out of prison and he tries to take over    Revelation 20:7-10
> the New Jerusalem, the Holy City. He fails.

Since the New Jerusalem doesn't proceed out of heaven until Rev 21, how could
Satan try to take over it? Satan's besiege of the beloved city (v9) must then
refer to earthly Jerusalem not the New Jerusalem (still in heaven at this time).
One might think that Satan travelled to heaven to attack the New Jerusalem but
according to v8 he went out to the four corners of the earth.

I think it is Jerusalem not the New Jerusalem that is attacked. 

Regards,
Ace 

    Interesting conversation with an old friend of mine.  We were on the 
    phone and we got talking about the tribulation.  He seems to firmly 
    believe in post tribulation.  He says it happened during the time of
    Nero.
    
    I explained to him that although Nero was evil to the core, there have
    been many self proclaimed gods throughout history.  Besides, I said,
    it doesn't fall in line with the great statue of Daniel.  The iron legs
    represent Rome but there are feet of clay and iron, thus representing
    another nation.  This knocks out Nero.  There are many other reasons
    but I didn't have time to get into them.
    
    There are many many different ideas on the tribulation and we'll all
    find out in the end.  My question to you is:  does my ole friend here
    have any ground of validity in this belief.  If not, why?
    
    Thanks and God Bless,
    
    -Jack

Hello Janet, 

- and welcome!  Thanks for sharing your findings with us!  I can understand 
a certain sensitivity about submitting a theory to people who have a range 
of strongly held opinions on the topic, but I hope we can grow in 
understanding and fellowship together as we consider prayerfully the Word 
God has given to instruct us...

First of all, I agree with your definition of the three 'heavens'!  However 
my reading has not led me to the same conclusions on various other points...
This is an immense topic, and obviously there isn't time to cover the scope 
in one note, but I'll makea start...

You understand 'the Abyss' in Revelation 20:3, where satan is bound and
confined for 1000 years to be earth, generally.  Later, in verse 8, satan
is released 'to deceive the nations in the four corners of the earth',
whence they march to Jerusalem.

Now I read the Abyss to be a place of actual confinement for satan, and
during this time, evil on the earth is restrained. 

This fits in with the Old Testament prophecies of a time of earthly 
blessing and peace, when the LORD Jesus reigns in person as the lawful 
inheritor of the throne of Daveid.  This follows a time of major 
regathering of Israel, referred to in Hosea 3:4-5, Isaiah 65:17-25, Isaiah 
11:-12, and many of the minor prophets, in particular, Zechariah 8:3-8, 
12-14.  

Note that in Isaiah 65:17, I do not believe that the 'New heavens and new
earth' referred to there can be the same as those referred to in
Revelation 21:1.  The reason for this is that the Revelation reference is 
to an eternal heaven and earth, where, in particular, there is no death.  
The new earth of Isaiah 65 refers to an immensely extended lifespan (:20), 
but definitely still includes not only death, but the curse.

The description of the 'New heavens and new earth' in Isaiah hjave some
interesting comparisons with the pre-flood world (longevity, cf Genesis 5,
tameness of animals, cf the change in state indicated by Genesis 9:2-3).
This is consistent with the active reign and rule of the returned Creator
Messiah, also pictured in the parable of the man who went away to have his 
kingdom appointed to him,  in Luke 19:11-27.

So in both cases they are a renewed heaven and earth, but the first is 
temporal, while the second is eternal.

I have to break there, but that's just for a start ;-)

						God bless
							Andrew

re.117 Jack

	RE: Nero as Antichrist

	Rev 17:8a  The beast whom you saw was, and is not, and is about to come
up out of the abyss and go into destruction..."

	"The beast" who is Antichrist, "was" in the person of Caesar Nero before
John wrote this book. He "is not" at the time of John's writing, because Nero
had died by that time. He "is about to come up out of the abyss." This implies
that Nero's spirit is now in the abyss and is about the emerge from it to take
possession of the body of the slain and resurrected Antichrist (Rev 13:3). He
"is about to go into destruction." This indicates that Antichrist will perish as
described in Rev 19:20 and 20:10.

    That is an interesting commentary and could possibly be the case.  The
    next logical question is...Why Nero?  Why not Claudius for example, an
    individual who was less tolerant of the Jews than Nero actually was.  
    
    In fact, if my memory of Acts serves me correctly, didn't Nero allow an
    exemption for the Jews that they did not need to bow down to him as a
    god under Hebrew protest, whereas Claudius kicked them out.  (See
    chapter of Acts regarding Priscilla and Aquilla, 18th chapter or so..
    they were packing to move out!!!)
    
    -Jack

    Nero was a monster.  He severely persecuted Christians.  It was
    probably Nero that had the apostle Paul executed.
    
    I am not commenting as to the assertion that Nero was the antichrist. 
    I *do* believe that the antichrist in the tribulation will be a
    resurrected spirit (i.e., someone who previously had been mortally
    wounded).
    
    Mark L.

re.115

Hello Ace (and you other gentle readers),

>Since the New Jerusalem doesn't proceed out of heaven until Rev 21, how could
>Satan try to take over it? Satan's besiege of the beloved city (v9) must then
>refer to earthly Jerusalem not the New Jerusalem (still in heaven at this time).
>One might think that Satan travelled to heaven to attack the New Jerusalem but
>according to v8 he went out to the four corners of the earth.
>
>I think it is Jerusalem not the New Jerusalem that is attacked.

At first glance it may seem so, but truly it is the New Jerusalem.  Please 
consider the following:

      - This is after the 1,000 years.  To be blunt, Earth has composting.
	The fearful convulsions of nature connected with the seven last 
	plagues have left the earth a scene of utter destruction. Jerusalem
	would no longer be the holy city.

      -	The saints are with Jesus in the New Jerusalem.  This is now the holy
	city.

      - The fact that the "beloved city" is being surrounded shows clearly that
	it has descended, although the actual descent is not described until
	Rev 21:2 & 10.  Rev 21 is a 'close-up' of the New Jerusalem. In fact,
	unless you read ch. 21 carefully you might get the idea that the city
	is descending twice, although it clearly isn't.  Rev 21:2 & 10

      - One of the significant events following the close of the 1,000 years is
	the descent of Christ, the saints, and the holy city. The sequence of 
	events is clear when the entire context is examined. 

      -	a new name, a new song, a new heaven and a new earth, a new Jerusalem,
	Behold, I make all things new.   The Book of Revelation

His child,
Janet

>    I am not commenting as to the assertion that Nero was the antichrist. 
>    I *do* believe that the antichrist in the tribulation will be a
>    resurrected spirit (i.e., someone who previously had been mortally
>    wounded).
    
    just like Gog.  He appears in Ezekiel 38 (pre-millenium), Revelation 20
    (post-millenium), and even Amos 7:1 (from the Septuagint).  All of
    these appearances are at least 1,000 year apart.  I believe this is a
    demon king.  Gog is called the "King of the Locusts" but Proverbs 30:27
    says "the locusts have no king."  Daniel 10 sort of confirms the
    supernatural battles that go on.

re.120  Jack

	"And are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet
come; and when he comes, he must remain a little while"

	The "seven kings" are the seven Caesars of the Roman Empire. The first
"five have fallen," i.e. they have died unnaturally (Judge 3:25; 2 Sam 1:10, 25,
27). They are Julias Caesar, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius and Nero, all of whom
either were murdered or committed suicide before John wrote this book. The sixth
"one", Domitian, who was also murdered, was living when this book was written;
therefore it is said of him that he "is". "The other", the seventh,, who will be
Antichrist, had "not yet come" at that time. "When he comes he must remain a
little while" and will be slain and resurrected with the spirit of the fifth,
who is Nero, to be the eighth (v11).

	Several of them could have qualified to be the Antichrist, but Nero
apparently was the worst of the bunch. Perhaps he was qualified above the rest
because of his hand in the persecution of the christians including Paul and
Peter the leading apostles brothers in God's move on the earth at that time.

Hi Janet,

Where do you fit in passages like Hosea 3:4-5, Isaiah 65:17-25, Isaiah
11:-12, Zechariah 8:3-8, 14:16-21, Jeremiah 30...? 

Still staying with my perspective!  ;-)

Re the person of the antichrist - there are many prefigures (typical of 
prophecy), including Nero, Antiochus Epiphanes, etc, but the ultimate one 
will be destroyed by the return of the LORD Jesus in person, which will be 
rather an interruption of history!  I get that event from 2 Thessalonians 
2:8, Revelation 19:11-21, Zechariah 14:3...12-13.  The events in the past 
may have begun to mirror prophecy,  but they didn't complete it.  The devil 
is trying to precipitate Armageddon before its time...

							Andrew

>Where do you fit in passages like Hosea 3:4-5, Isaiah 65:17-25, Isaiah
>11:-12, Zechariah 8:3-8, 14:16-21, Jeremiah 30...?

Where do I fit them?  They fit perfectly where they are.  They are in complete 
harmony with the list I provided in .114.  Do you disagree?

His child,
Janet

Hello Janet,

Your scenario has no time of temporal blessing / restoration of all things
/ Israel's return and blessing / Jesus' reign on earth which corresponds to
the passages I mentioned. 

That's why I wondered how you accomodate them!

Off for the weekend now - 'bye

					God bless
						Andrew

    Sorry my Dear Brother,
    
    This isn't my scenario.  Please take time and read it again. Perhaps 
    you have a different idea of what these things actually are (time of 
    temporal blessing / restoration of all things / Israel's return and 
    blessing / Jesus' reign on earth).  I will not debate you on any of 
    these but I will leave you with a few things to think about, and I will 
    let you have the last word.
    
    Do I understand that you believe that (/ Israel's return and blessing)
    means Israel as it is now on earth?  Israel is going to be destroyed
    just like every other city/state/village/island on earth when the
    seven last plagues take place. 
    
    Do I understand that you believe that (/ Jesus' reign on earth) means
    that Jesus will come to this earth and reign?  Not quite.  Jesus will
    be moving His headquarters (New Jerusalem) to earth after the 1,000
    years but a lot will change between now and then.
    
    What about the (time of temporal blessing)?  What about it?  The
    dictionary defines 'temporal': Of or limited by time, worldly, secular.
    What did you have in mind?  Some sort of blessing here on earth other
    than the countless blessings we receive daily (air, light, love, etc.)?
    That isn't what we have in our future.  The "time of trouble, such as
    never was since there was a nation" is about to happen.  
    
    Re: .118
    
    >>You understand 'the Abyss' in Revelation 20:3, where satan is bound
    >>and confined for 1000 years to be earth, generally.
    
    Simply this:  Satan and his angels are confined to earth for 1,000
    literal years.  There is no one left alive on earth at this time so
    there is no one to tempt.  There is also no one to bury all of the
    people who where slain by the brightness of His coming so they are
    lying around on the ground.  The earth is in ruins.  The fallen angels
    have nothing better to do than be angry at satan for getting them into
    this in the first place.  After the 1,000 years Jesus raises the wicked
    dead.  Satan now has someone to tempt, so he has been 'loosed out of
    his prison, And shall go out to deceive the nations' (the only people on
    earth are the wicked dead of all ages whom Jesus has raised) which are 
    in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them 
    together to battle".  They surround the beloved city.  They are
    obviously up to no good.  The judgement of the wicked (everyone who
    is not inside the city) takes place at this time.  And fire came down 
    from God out of heaven,  and devoured them.
    
    His child,
    Janet

      re -1
    
      Hi Janet,
    
        The continual references to Satan's primary work being _to
        deceive_ causes it to make an awful lot of sense to me that
        he is bound in the sense of being entirely suppressed from
        being able to deceive.
    
        There is no one around to deceive/tempt!
    
        Its a spiritual book and I would tend to endorse a 'spiritual'
        confinement and not a physical one.
    
                                                      Thanks!,
    
                                                      Tony

    Hmmm, more interesting tidbits to digest.  Janet takes a different
    angle than I do, but that's not to say that she is not right.  I never
    even considered that there would be no one left on the earth for the
    1000 years (hopefuly I read her note correctly here) for Satan to temp. 
    I'm always delighted to hear a different view.
    
    I've done a bit of study on the end times prophesies, making no secret
    of my opinions (that could be wrong, of course), and I find this new
    look at these prophesies quite interesting.  I will have to do a bit
    more study on the matter.  8^)
    
    
    -steve

Hello again Janet...

.128�    This isn't my scenario...

Sorry if 'scenario' is inappropriate.  Maybe the word has a different slant
in the States?  I just meant the sequence you entered in .114.  I would use 
the word for the way I see eschatology, without any implications either 
way on its accuracy.

Now, I was intending for you not to respond to merely the form of words,
but to the verses I referred to.  These you haven't touched on.  If you
read my entry .118, I think that should answer some of your queries about
the temporal blessing.  That is not to lessen in any way the eternal
blessings, which those who trust in the cleansing of Jesus' blood
anticipate.  That is the only and perfect bliss.  But meanwhile, we have 
prophecy teaching us what lies before on this earth also....

Now, you see the earth as a devastation at the end of the tribulation, for
the 1,000 years, populated only with satan and his demons, with no-one to
tempt.  I must say that at one time I was puzzled about the physical effect
of the cataclysmic events of Revelation 16.  However, there are verses which 
I see as conflicting with .114.

We touched on considering the Abyss as meaning the earth, but this is
inconsistent with the other references to this place in the New Testament.
It is variously referred to as the Abyss, the Bottomless Pit, and 'the
deep', but the original Greek word is the same.  It's referred to in
Revelation 9:1,2,11; 11:7; 17:8; 20:1,3; Romans 10:7; Luke 8:31. 

Of these, Revelation 9:1,2,11 speaks of the Abyss being opened, and 
demonic 'locusts' being released onto the earth, as one of the trumpet 
woes.  Luke 8:31 has the record of the demoniac who was delivered, and in 
this verse, the demons beg the LORD Jesus not to send them into the Abyss.  
neither of these are consistent with the Abyss being the earth.

I have another problem with the earth lying desolate for the 1,000 years. 
God formed the earth to be inhabitted (Isaiah 45:18) - by mankind.  For it 
to end as a rubbish dump for demons seems to indicate a negation of thatr 
purpose, and of the promise of Genesis 8:22 "as long as the earth endures, 
seed time and harvest .... shall not cease."

The interpretation which I see as best fulfilling Scripture is that the 
moving of the earh of Revelation 16 is the shaking referred to in Haggai 
2:21 and Hebrews 12:26-27, to return the earth environment close to its 
original, as, physically, the 'restoration of all things'.

Do you have a problem with prophecy having a literal meaning as well as a
spiritual one?  If you wish to consider that, it could clarify where we are 
coming from!

						God bless
								Andrew

After reading Matthew 24:15... in note 470.11  ("Gabriel has his lips on the
horn"), I'm reminded...

Wouldn't one of the next signs to watch for be the rebuilding of the Temple?

Any more news along these lines?

Just watching,
Tanya

Hi Tanya,

A lot of the specifics aren't given in direct sequence.  I think there's a 
few things we're likely to see before the temple rebuilding, but it's 
certainly one to watch out for...  There's been a lot of second hand 
reports of preparations, but the way is not yet open politically.  Matthew 
24 / Mark 13 refer to the temple in existance, but neither indicates at 
what stage it is built...

								Andrew

>Wouldn't one of the next signs to watch for be the rebuilding of the Temple?
>
>Any more news along these lines?
    
    I thought I already posted some info in here, but Chuck Missler brought
    a group of 75 to Israel in March and they attended the Temple
    Conference when there.  They are well on their way to rebuilding it. 
    All the internal worship instruments and garments are just about
    complete.  The designs are pretty much in their final stages now too. 
    All they're waiting on is the settling of the site to build it on.
    
    Mike

    Wonder how long it will take them to build it once they have the
    building "permit".
    
    In any case, Babylon is well underway...construction continues today. 
    Another prophesy being fulfilled before our eyes.
    
    -steve

    After reading another book on my favorite subject, I came across an
    interesting tidbit that I never knew about.
    
    On the back of all $1 bills, around a symbol of a pyramid with an eye
    floating above it, are the words:
    
    (top) ANNUIT COEPTIS  (announcing the birth of)
    (bottom) NOVUS (the new) ORDO (order) SECLORUM (world without god)
    
    
    Since the Federal Reserve is not a government agency, nor under the
    control of Congress of the President, I begin to wonder if it is not
    actually a part of a future world that will eventually bring about a
    cashless economic system.  
    
    One commentor in the day of the Federal Reserve Act, Charles Lindberg
    Sr., is quoted as saying, "This act establishes the most gigantic trust
    on earth; when the president (Wilson) signs this bill, the invisible
    government of the monetary power will be legalized...the worst
    legislative crime of the ages is perpetrated by this banking and
    currency bill."
    
    
    Is a New World Order close at hand?  It is fascinating to watch
    the events of Revelation taking shape before our very eyes.
    
    More when I have time.
    
    
    -steve

    Well, Steve, you got me to pull out my dollar bill.
    
    Two things:  In english, the dollar bill clearly states "In God We
    Trust"
    
    The dollar bill has been around a while.  Of course, we're talking a
    speck of time, I suppose, but nevertheless....
    
    Any thoughts?
    
    MM

Hi Steve,

I have read about this from someone who documents the march of society 
towards the type of society indicated in Revelation 13, etc.  I must
refresh myself on the details, but just when I read the chapter on the
dollar bill, someone had sent me one (to make some transaction, not
outwardly connected with the book), and it spoke deeply to me, to see the
things the book mentioned, spelled out in front of me.  I thought that
those of you in the U.S. would be rather more aware of this.... 

The 'pyramid and eye' logo is the 'eye of horus', derived from ancient
Egyptian religion, and brought in via freemasonry.  It was added to the $1
bill by one of the presidents (Lincoln? - must check there).  The pyramid 
has 13 steps, which also has a particular significance.

And 'the birth of the new secular order' is certainly very significant,
even if it expresses an intent, rather than an established fact. 

Interesting that Mark refers to the other, older script : "In God We Trust"
In the UN centre at Washington, there is a room for worship / meditation.
In the centre is a black box, where anyone can imagine the God - or god -
of his choice.  I have heard it said that the script should now read 
"In a God We Trust"....  where progressively, man is becoming his own god.

This is not just the U.S.  Recently in a television interview, Prince 
Charles (who, if he succeeds to the throne, would also be the head of the 
Church of England here), said that he sees his title "Defender of the 
Faith" as better expressed "Defender of Faith".  I must confess a certain
lack of comprehension as to how a non-Christian (as he patently is) can
have conferred upon him the leadership of the C of E, or even seriously
take the coronation oaths in God's Name...  But that is off topic. 

							Andrew 

    Something I knew about already, but read about in this book (The
    World's Last Dictator, by Dwight L. Kinman), was the little strip
    found in 10's, 20's, 50's and $100 bills.  According to the author and
    his sources, the strip is tracable by electronic serveilence devices. 
    The government, if they had a mind to, can tell how many of each of
    these bills you have in your house.  
    
    An idea that I had, reinforced by this book, was that this new money (I
    spotted it a couple years ago) would eventually replace the old bills
    (without the strip).  The reason given would probably have something to
    do with counterfeit problems.  Next step?  Debit cards.  After that?
    
    Clinton has been waving around his "smart" card which he would like to
    issue everyone in the US along with the socialist health care reform. 
    
    It would only take a financial crisis to push the implementation of the
    already existing cashless system.  And with our skyrocketing debt and
    the continual refusal by Congress to cut spending, we are certainly
    heading in that direction.
    
    Not only does Congress not cut spending, but they are actually stepping
    up spending (crime bill is $30 billion, and they are also trying to
    pass health care reforms at another $175 billion- which will only grow
    exponentially each year as has every other wealth redistribution
    policy). 
    
    I'm of the mind that such obvious lack of financial responsibility is
    more than stupidity on the part of Congress.  The only conclusion I can
    come to is that there are those in power (certainly not all of
    Congress) that are purposefully trying to break our economy, and with
    it, cause economic downfall to many other nations that are so tightly
    dependent on the US dollar.  If we go under, we will not go alone, and
    this is ideal to those who control the money.  A cashless world
    monetary system would be the easiest way to reign in hyperinflation and
    other undesirable fallout of our economic collapse.
    
    
    -steve (unusually cheerful today...8^) )

    >-steve (unusually cheerful today...8^) 
    
    Fortunately our hope is not built on the government, but on the solid
    rock of Jesus Christ.  Nothing will be able to separate us from His
    love (see verse for today, 9.last).  We can have joy and confidence
    even though the society we live in may be crumbling around us.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

.139 regarding the current administration and [liberal] congress can be
summed up in three cliche words:  TAX AND SPEND

 Its "contribute and invest"




 Jim

    re: .140
    
    True enough (praise God)...still doesn't make it easy to watch.   
    
    
    
    -steve

I've looked up the book I referred to in .138 (and have been carrying this
slim volume around with me for nearly a week ;-).  The book is called 
"Second Warning", by Barry Smith, of new Zealand.  It doesn't seem to have 
an ISBN.  The information on the seal on the dollar is in chapter 5, on 
pages 69-71.  It includes the following information :

President Franklin D. Roosevelt was a 32� mason, who, on as the country 
obtained recovery from the Stock Market crash of '29 had the pyramid and 
eye seal put on the $1 bill in 1933.  On the dollar, because it represents 
the key element of currency.

The eye is called 'The Eye of Horus', and comes from Egyptian mythology. It
is actually the eye of lucifer.  The seal was developed by the secret
society, the Illuminati who were formed in 1776 in Bavaria.  They called
the eye the "Insinuating Brethren", looking down on and controlling
society.  Soon after being banned in Bavaria, the Illuminati infiltrated 
the upper degrees of masonic lodges, so the eye symbol is often found 
there.  Society was likened to the 13 layers of stone in the pyramid, as 
follows :

(a) satan's eye
(b) Top block of stone - Council 13 of witchcraft on the east coast of 
    America, controlling Wall Street, finance, etc.
(c) Next block of stone - Council 33 of Freemasonry, an honourary position
    which passes down directives etc 
(d) Next block of stone - Council 500 - the 500 richest world banking 
    families involved in this scheme.
etc etc, aiming towards one world government.

This is just taken from the book.  Not my original research ;-)

								Andrew

    Andrew it definately makes one think though, doesnt it?
    
    Thanks for the info.
    
    Sylvain

    I thought the 13 steps were representative of the 13 colonies - just
    like the 13 arrows and 13 leaved branch held in the claws of the eagle
    on the right side of the bill (see also the 13 stars above the eagle's
    head, 13 stripes on the flag emblem over the eagle's chest, etc.).
    
    That notwithstanding, I'm not a fan of pyramids representing an
    "american" view of a new worldly order.  I much prefer the Word
    representing G-d's view of an eternal heavenly Kingdom order.
    
    FWIW,
    
    STeve

    re: .144
    
    That sounds exactly like what I read in 'The World's Last Dictator', by
    Dwight L. Kinman.
    
    Coincidence?  Are the two authors co-conspirators?  Or is there some
    truth to it?
    
    Judgeing by current trends, I become more and more convinced that they
    are not making all this up.
    
    My couple o' pennies worth, anyway.
    
    -steve

    The book is absolutely wrong if it says the seal was designed by a
    cult or the like.  The Great Seal of the United States has strong
    Biblical roots and significance.  Benjamin Franklin who was on the Seal
    development committee suggested a pillar of fire by night and etc.
    representing the Israelites coming out of Egypt.  The eagle - well look
    at your scriptures "I bare you on eagles wings" or something like that,
    and others too.  Much more not included.
    
    Beware of those who try to turn Americas history and symbology into
    something of pagan origin.  We have a profoundly Christian history!!!
    The flag:
    
    Blue- the Biblical color of the law
    Red- the blood
    white- purity
    7- perfection
    6- man
    5- grace
    stars- HIS people
    
    So within the flag we have the picture of Christs blood (7 red stripes)
    surrounding and purifying man and making him whole(6 white stripe).
    We have the law represented(field of blue), but we only see it in regard
    people in the sense of grace(5 pointed stars).
    
    Interesting huh?
    
    
    Rich 

Hi Steve L,

.147� That sounds exactly like what I read in 'The World's Last Dictator', 
.147� by Dwight L. Kinman.

I don't know that author, but there are quite a few who see things along 
the same lines.  I expect different ones would be available to you than to 
me, with the Atlantic between...  ;-}

Bob, .148,

You are looking at the seal, on the right hand side of the note.  I was
writing about the seal on the left hand side of the note (to the left of
the ONE in the centre, under 'IN GOD WE TRUST' in small print.  I did not
do any original research into this; I merely quote what I have read.  I
would *like* to find that America is faithful to the original founding
motives (as far as I understand them), but I have yet to see any sound
refutation of the book I quoted, or any indication that politics or the 
social order of the western world are moving in any dfirection other than 
away from God.

� Beware of those who try to turn Americas history and symbology into
� something of pagan origin.  We have a profoundly Christian history!!!

Don't rest on history.  The social order is changing significantly, and 
cutting deep into things we hold precious.  That is happening in the UK 
too.

Note that it is claimed that the seal in question was entered to the $1
bill in 1933.  If you have one older (if they are still legal tender?),
that should be possible to verify. 


Steve M,

I just don't know.  One would, under any normal order of things, expect 
such information to be readily available, as something of national respect 
(I almost put pride, but this being where it is... ;-)  I too am wary of 
such human symbology.  It can too easily be interpreted according to the
whim of the observer.  Trouble is when it is put somewhere 'significant'.
Something precise lay behind its introduction, regardless of the way we
would like to read it. 

								Andrew 

    re:  .148
    
    I was talking about the seal on the left side of the back of the $1
    bill.  There is a pyramid with an eye above it, with the latin words in
    my p_name around it.  Anouncing the birth of a new world order.
    
    Anyone know when the pyramid first appeared on the back of the $1 bill?
    
    Maybe Franklin designed the good half? (along with Jeffeson)  I find it
    hard to believe anything bad of these two men, after reading many of
    their warnins against what we see happening today.  If they were a
    part of the NWO in the early years (the Illuminati was started in
    1776), they certainly would not have been so adamantly against a strong
    general (Federal) government and so determined to see that individual
    freedoms were preserved.
    
    Their writings show them as good, God-fearing men.  I'll not believe
    that they were consciously working towards any questionable goal (I
    don't believe everything I read on any side of a given issue...unless
    I'm reading the Bible...I merely pass on interesting tidbits with
    comment).
    
    
    -steve 

    
    >(the Illuminati was started in  1776)
    
      on the base of the pyramid is MDCCLXXVI, which I think is 1776.

    Yup, that's what Mark just confirmed for me in Chit Chat.
    
    -steve

Re: .150 (Steve Leech)

>    Maybe Franklin designed the good half? (along with Jeffeson)  I find it
>    hard to believe anything bad of these two men, after reading many of
>    their warnins against what we see happening today.  If they were a
>    part of the NWO in the early years (the Illuminati was started in
>    1776), they certainly would not have been so adamantly against a strong
>    general (Federal) government and so determined to see that individual
>    freedoms were preserved.
>    
>    Their writings show them as good, God-fearing men.  I'll not believe

Franklin and Jefferson were deists.  Deism was one of the ideological rages
of that day.  A deist believes in a creator god who created the universe, but
has not intervened in it in any miraculous way since that time, but has just
let it run.  Jefferson in particular was in opposition to the Christian faith.
He was the author of what has become known as "The Jefferson Bible".  This is
a version of one of the gospels in which everything supernatural has been
editted out, including Christ's resurrection itself.  I have a copy of this
book in my possession.  I remember reading how Jefferson described how he was
seperating out "the diamonds from a dunghill".  Thomas Paine, of American
Revolutionary fame, arrived in the colonies with letters of recommendation
from Franklin.  Thomas Paine is creditted with inspiring the American 
Revolution through his writings in his book "Common Sense" and the Pensylvania
Magazine.  Paine was an outright antagonist to the Christian faith, and 
authored the book "Age of Reason", whose sole purpose was to argue against
and destroy the Christian faith.  I have a copy of both "Common Sense" and
"Age of Reason".  

It is important to keep in mind that just because a person refers to "God"
in his writings, that this does not mean he is a Christian.  

To be sure, there were professing Christians among what has been termed the 
"Founding Fathers".  However, it is also important to keep in mind that just
because a person professes to be a Christian does not mean that he makes 
right judgments in every area.  

    Garth,
    
    You've got my curiousity going now...I will have to hunt down said
    books.
    
    I've read elsewhere that Jefferson and Franklin were Deists, but I am
    not familiar with this denomination/religion.
    
    -steve 

I am VERY familiar with the Illuminati, the Council on Foreign Relation, the 
Trilateral Commission, the Bilderbergers, the Club of Rome, the Federal Reserve
System, and a host of other conspiratorial groups and their impact on world 
politics, but AMERICA WAS STILL FOUNDED AS A CHRISTIAN NATION AND ITS SYMBOLS
AND HERALDRY ARE PREDOMINANTLY CHRISTIAN.

The seal was designed long before 1933, just because they put it on the dollar 
then means nothing.

There is no bad side of the seal.  I would expect this problem in a history 
file, or in antiquities or something, but you guys ought to know better.
Who is the chief corner stone which the builders rejected?  What is the monument
spoken of in prophecy in the midst of Egypt and at the border thereof.  Who is 
ominpotent, omniscient, and omnipresent(with an all seeing eye)?  It doesn't
take much research into the Great Pyramid to find out that it is God's witness
in stone.  Its passages are a time line of pinpointing significant events in the
history of His people.  Christ is the chief corner stone!

As far a the garbage about Franklin & Jefferson being deist - well don't repeat
lies here please. (Deist being one who doesn't believe in an intervening God.)

A quote from Franklin as closely as I can remember it.- From the Con-Con

"I have lived Sir a long time, and the longer I live the more convincing proofs
I see of this truth - that God governs in the affairs of men, and if a sparrow
cannot fall to the ground without his notice is it probale that an empire can
rise without his aid..."

Again I say beware of those who LIE to you about our history and our Founding
Fathers.  It is important for the enemies of Christ that our history be 
discredited in our minds.

Rich

    Should I remind anyone of how Ben Franklin died?

    How did he die?
    
    Bing

    I don't know, but I never give up for my very own snarf!

    Well, I am not convinced either way, so I will keep my opinion to
    myself for now.  The prolific writings of Jefferson and Franklin show
    them to be God-fearing men, and show that they believe that God does
    intervene in the affairs of man.  Whether or not they were Christians,
    saved by the blood of Jesus, I don't know. 
    
    Is the latin inscription around the pyramid an original part of the
    seal, or was it an addition by some other party?  "Announcing the birth
    of a new world order" sounds a bit fishy to me, no matter who it was
    that put it on our $1 bills.
    
    -steve

        Franklin died of syphilis.  He was a womanizer.

    I'd hesitate to use that as judgement against him.  Many, many,
    sinners are among those who are Christians :-).  I don't know
    that much about the inner workings of Franklin's life, but I
    do know that God is merciful and I am far from perfect.

    Leslie

    I agree with Leslie Mike!
    
    David of the Bible was an adulterer and a murderer.
    
    Nancy

Re: .159  (Steve Leech)

>    myself for now.  The prolific writings of Jefferson and Franklin show
>    them to be God-fearing men, and show that they believe that God does
>    intervene in the affairs of man.  Whether or not they were Christians,
>    saved by the blood of Jesus, I don't know. 
    
Which "God" is it that they feared?  The man-made one or the God of Israel?

Jefferson believed that Jesus was a good moral teacher, and he believed in
"God".  Does that make him a Christian?  And since Jefferson denied the 
virgin birth and incarnation, the miracles, and ultimately the resurrection
itself, then what have we to conclude about him?

    ...but David fell ONCE and was truly sorry for his sin.  We all fall,
    but as Christians it bothers us and we seek forgiveness and keep our
    distance from further temptations.  In these days of "Character matters" 
    and "Character is everything," Franklin's lifestyle was closer to Slick 
    Willy's.

    Not sure that I agree with you on that.  I'm careful of modern
    historians rewriting history.
    

    Franklins young life and his older mature life and beliefs were
    different.  The earlier quote was him speaking as the eldest delegate
    at the con-con.
    
    Which God?  He proposed the Israelites coming out of Egypt and the
    pillar of fire.  Is that unclear to you?
    
    Indeed a new order of ages had begun.(It was past tense)  This was on
    the heals of the Christian reformation.
    
    Rich

 |       <<< Note 397.160 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>
 |                  -< not exactly a good Christian witness >-
 |
 |        Franklin died of syphilis.  He was a womanizer.

    Franklin wasn't a womanizer, he was a serial monogamist.
    
    Glenn

Replies discussing the pre- or post- trib rapture have been moved to note 
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						Andrew Yuille
						co-moderator