| T.R | Title | User | Personal
Name | Date | Lines |
|---|
| 393.1 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Thu Feb 03 1994 08:23 | 14 |
| No, Jews do not celebrate the Passover one day late.
Although Christian bibles tend to translate Ex 12:6 as "and you shall keep
it until the fourteenth day of this month, when the whole assembly of Israel
shall kill their lambs in the evening", the Hebrew is "between the two
evenings".
"This day" in Exodus 12:14 is the 15th of Nisan.
See Leviticus 23:5-6, and especially Numbers 28:16-17, "On the fourteenth day
of the first month is the Lord's passover. And on the fifteenth day of this
month is a feast; seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten..."
/john
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| 393.2 | The Celebrate it Twice | MRKTNG::WEBER | Nancy Weber @MKO | Fri Feb 04 1994 08:41 | 10 |
| Hi Rodger,
I'm not too sure which century of Jewish people your note refers to. If
you are talking about modern Jews they actually celebrate Passover
twice. The first night of Passover begins at sundown (14th of Nissan)
and is celebrated privately with family and friends. The second night
(sundown of the 15th) is a corporate celebration and is usually done
with your congregation. Perhaps this is where your confusion occurs.
nancy
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| 393.3 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Fri Feb 04 1994 09:11 | 15 |
| > The first night of Passover begins at sundown (14th of Nissan)
> and is celebrated privately with family and friends.
The 15th of Nisan begins at sundown; the first Seder is celebrated then
(on the 15th), as commanded in Numbers 28:16-17.
This year, the 15th of Nisan is Sunday, 27 March. The 15th begins after
sundown on Saturday the 26th, which is when the first Seder is held.
I am painfully aware of this, because I am producing a theatre production
which has its final performances that Saturday. We have lost most of our
Jewish members this year because of the conflict; we were unable to obtain
space in the auditorium any other time.
/john
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| 393.4 | The fog is lifting | EVTDD2::FPCTEST2 | | Tue Feb 08 1994 09:14 | 22 |
| VERY interesting!
So, Jesus was crucified at the same time many of the passover lambs
were being killed! John, I'll look into the 'between the two evenings'.
But it still doesn't make sense. Did not the angel of death pass over
Egypt in the night of the 14th?(Ex.12:29) What purpose would it be if
the blood was not on the doorposts on time, but on the following day?
Nancy, Thanks for your note. I knew it was marked for 2 days as John
mentioned in Lev.23:6. but didn't know that there wasn't 1 official
evening, but 2, which marked the celebrating of Passover. So, on the
night of the 14th(for us the night of the 13th), they celebrate it with
close friends as on the original passover, on the 15th, (for us the
14th Evening) they celebrate it again, marking the beginning of the
feast as mentioned in leviticus 23:6. If I misunderstood, please
correct me.
Your brother in Christ,
Rodger Dusatko
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| 393.5 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Tue Feb 08 1994 10:58 | 20 |
| > night of the 14th(for us the night of the 13th), they celebrate it with
> close friends as on the original passover, on the 15th, (for us the
> 14th Evening) they celebrate it again, marking the beginning of the
> feast as mentioned in leviticus 23:6. If I misunderstood, please
> correct me.
You misunderstood.
The first seder is celebrated at the beginning of the 15th of Nisan, after
sundown on the preceding western calendar day. The second seder is celebrated
at the beginning of the 16th of Nisan, after sundown on the preceding calendar
day.
This year, the 15th of Nisan is Sunday, 27 March. The 15th begins the
previous calendar day, i.e. western calendar Saturday evening.
First seder will be western calendar Saturday evening.
Second seder will be western calendar Sunday evening.
/john
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| 393.6 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Tue Feb 08 1994 11:49 | 26 |
| Here is some more information from a knowledgeable Orthodox Jew (posted
with permission). He has said that he will try to provide additional
source information.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Pesach (Paschal lamb) was slaughtered in the Temple on the afternoon
of the 14th. It was done in three shifts, I believe starting about 12:30.
The last shift was done well before sunset. The lamb was roasted and eaten
that evening, the 15th.
The new moon used to be declared by a court in Jerusalem based on the
testimony of witnesses (I believe the Moslem calendar still works this
way). Because Jews living outside Israel had no way of knowing when the
new moon had been declared, they celebrated two days of each holiday
(except Yom Kippur, because it was considered dangerous to fast for 48 hours).
For reasons I won't go into, this persists even though the calendar is now
fixed. So in the Diaspora, there will be two sedarim this year, Saturday
night and Sunday night. Contrary to .2, there is no significant difference
between the two sedarim.
Passover in Israel is seven days, the first and last of which are full
holidays (with major work restrictions). The days in between, which are
called Chol Ha-mo'ed, have some minor work restrictions. In the Diaspora,
Passover lasts eight days, the first two and last two of which are full
holidays.
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| 393.7 | | MRKTNG::WEBER | Nancy Weber @MKO | Wed Feb 09 1994 09:13 | 11 |
| Re .3
John is correct, I was working from memory, which is often lacking
these days, and remembered the 14th of Nissan.
But here's another bit of interesting fact. While the personal lambs
were killed on the 14th to be eaten that evening a national lamb was
slaughter at 3PM on the 15th (the day and time Yeshua died) at the
Temple for the nation of Israel.
nancy
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| 393.8 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Wed Feb 09 1994 10:21 | 6 |
| >a national lamb was slaughtered at 3PM on the 15th at the Temple
>for the nation of Israel.
There was a national lamb slaughtered every day of the year. (Ex 29:38-43)
/john
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| 393.9 | Still some questions | EVTDD2::FPCTEST2 | | Thu Feb 10 1994 03:15 | 39 |
| John and Nancy,
Thank you both for your help. So it WAS in the translation, 'between
the evenings' (My german translation had said between the evening
hours). The 14th was and is the preparation, the 15th evening (14th by
western calendar) it was eaten, the death angel killed the firstborn of
Egypt on the 15th at midnight, and the 15th day was a feast(celebration
because of their deliverance, the verdict of the Pharaoh and them
leaving so quick that same day. The 16th evening(15th by western
calendar) was the 2nd celebrating of the Passover(which is 1 day late).
Jesus was killed on the preparation, the 14th at 15:00, before the
passover.
There are still 2 questions:
Mt. 26:17 Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread the
disciples came to Jesus, saying unto him, Where wilt thou that we
prepare for thee to eat the passover?
Is the 1st day of unleavened bread the 14th, the day on which the lamb
was slaughtered (between the evening of the 14th(our 13th) and the
15th(our 14th)?
Mr. 14:12 And the first day of unleavened bread, when they
killed the passover, his disciples said unto him, Where wilt thou that
we go and prepare that thou mayest eat the passover?
Is the 1st day of unleavened bread the preparation day, starting on the
evening of the 14th?
Jesus was not crucified on the passover, but as the passover lamb, he
was killed on the preparation day, just as the law of Moses said that
the lamb was to be slaughtered BETWEEN the evenings(this would be the
14th at 15:00). But why did Jesus celebrate the passover on the evening
of the preparation(our 13th) with his disciples? Was this an exception?
But as mentioned in scripture, it seems it was standard.
sure knew when the passover was to be celebrated and was doing so with his
disciples.
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| 393.10 | | COVERT::COVERT | John R. Covert | Thu Feb 10 1994 06:45 | 10 |
| re .9
Jesus and his disciples did not celebrate the Passover early.
The preparation day referred to in the Gospels is the preparation for the
sabbath within the week of Passover; the Friday before the sabbath.
A sabbath within the week of Passover is a high holy day.
/john
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| 393.11 | Back to square 1 | EVTSG8::DUSATKO | | Thu Feb 10 1994 13:06 | 71 |
| John,
This is a struggle, please bear with me.
There are so many scriptures saying passover is to be eaten on the
evening of the 14th. Here are just a few:
Ex.12:18 In the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month
at even, ye shall eat unleavened bread, until the one and twentieth day
of the month at even.
Le.23:5 In the fourteenth day of the first month at even is the
LORD'S passover.
Nu.9:3 In the fourteenth day of this month, at even, ye shall
keep it in his appointed season: according to all the rites of it, and
according to all the ceremonies thereof, shall ye keep it.
Nu.9:5 And they kept the passover on the fourteenth day of the
first month at even in the wilderness of Sinai: according to all that
the LORD commanded Moses, so did the children of Israel.
Nu.28:16 And in the fourteenth day of the first month is the
passover of the Lord.
Jos.5:10 And the children of Israel encamped in Gilgal, and kept
the passover on the fourteenth day of the month at even in the plains
of Jericho.
2.Ch.30:15 Then they killed the passover on the fourteenth day of
he second month; and the priests and the Levites were ashamed, and
sanctified themselves, and brought in the burnt offerings into the
house of the Lord.
Ezr.6:19 And the children of the captivity kept the passover
upon the fourteenth day of the first month.
Eze.45:21 In the first month, in the fourteenth day of the month,
ye shall have the passover, a feast of seven days; unleavened bread
shall be eaten.
The 15th day is also mentioned, but not for when the passover is eaten,
but when the feast of unleavened bread takes place.
Le.23:6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the feast
of unleavened bread unto the LORD: seven days ye must eat unleavened
bread.
Nu.28:17 And in the fifteenth day of this month is the feast:
seven days shall unleavened bread be eaten.
Nu.33:3 And they departed from Rameses in the first month, on
the fifteenth day of the first month; on the morrow after the passover
the children of Israel went out with an high hand in the sight of all
the Egyptians.
Now I seem to be back to square 1. The 15th is the day AFTER the
passover. The 14th is the passover. I come again to the conclusion that
Jesus celebrated it on the correct day with his disciples while the
jewish people were 1 day late celebrating it on the 15th.
Again, please comment on this. I'm not trying to cause problems, but
there certainly appears to be a discrepency between what is written in
the law of Moses and what the jews are doing. If they are celebrating
passover on the 15th, then it is the morrow after the
passover.(Nu.33:3).
Your brother in Christ
Rodger Dusatko
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| 393.12 | different Passovers for different Jews | DYPSS1::DYSERT | Barry - Custom Software Development | Thu Feb 10 1994 16:17 | 22 |
| Rodger,
This is (I think) the "tougher" problem I alluded to in 383.39. I
quoted John 18:28, which implies that after Jesus & His disciples had
already eaten the Passover, the Saducees were unwilling to go into
Pilate's court for fear of being defiled and unable to eat the
Passover.
There is a bit of discussion in 383.xx (xx > 39). My current
understanding is that the Passover was actually observed on two
different days by two groups of people. The Northern Jews (i.e. Jesus
and His disciples) celebrated the Passover on the day that they had
historically recognized it, and the Southern Jews (i.e. Saducees)
celebrated the Passover on the day that *they* had historically
recognized it - however the two days weren't the same day! The
Southerners' day was indeed the day following the Northerners' day.
I don't have my sources on me, but there is support for this
two-day/two-groups Passover theory. If in fact the theory is true, I
think this clears up the problem you're talking about.
BD�
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| 393.13 | Some possibilities | EVTSG8::DUSATKO | | Fri Feb 11 1994 07:06 | 61 |
| John,
Yes, it would be the answer. Jesus and his disciples had passover on
the evening of the 14th(the 13th to us). On the 14th Jesus was
crucified during the day. On the 15th(evening of the 14th) the Jews
celebrated passover and on the 15th (day) was the feast celebrating the
deliverance from Israel, which is the morrow after the passover.
I can only think that from the north it was celebrated a day early.
The scriptures saying that it was to be celebrated on the evening of
the 14th, however, must be refering to the day we recognize also as the
14th, meaning that the new calendar day DIDN'T start at sundown, but
this evening and night was still considered the 14th, since the day of
the 15th is the 'morrow after the passover'. The evening of the 14th
must directly preceed the day of the 15th, meaning the evening of the
15th would follow the day of the 15th.
I hope it is still understandable what I am trying to get at. They all
left Egypt on the 15th during the day. So the 14th on the evening, when
passover was celebrated, WAS after sundown, but still considered the
14th.
If Jesus WAS killed on the 15th, and the passover was to start at
sundown AFTER Jesus was killed, then the Jews definitely celebrated
passover 1 day late. But if Jesus was killed on the 14th, as the law
says the lamb was to be killed, then the Jews were on the right day. I
tend to believe that the Jews were on the right day AND Jesus was
killed on the 14th. Jesus celebrating passover on the evening of the
14th(on the 13th by our calendar) may have been the custom from the
north.
What about the preparation? Any holiday given in the law of Moses,
because it was to be regarded with the same rules as the
sabbath.
Le.16:31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall
afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.(The day of atonement)
Le.23:24 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, In the
seventh month, in the first day of the month, shall ye have a sabbath,
a memorial of blowing of trumpets, and holy convocation.
Le.23:32 It shall be unto you a sabbath of rest, and ye shall
afflict your souls: in the ninth day of the month at even, from even
unto even, shall ye celebrate your sabbath.
By saying 'shall ye have a sabbath', it cannot be refering to a
saturday, but that this day, whether a saturday or not, it to be
counted to them as a sabbath. And if the rules of the sabbath apply,
then they would have to prepare before this day(preparation).
the 14th wasn't mentioned as being the holiday to be kept, but the
15th. The 14th in the evening was for the eating of the passover and
the 15th was the feast to be kept.
Your brother in Christ
Rodger Dusatko
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| 393.14 | Assumption of source of confusion | EVTSG8::DUSATKO | | Fri Feb 11 1994 08:41 | 16 |
| John,
Coul it be that the same confusion we had concerning when the evening
of the 14th was they had? Some considered it on the evening of the
13th? And therefore killed the lamb for this evening? The Pharisees,
however, who would have known of the scripture 'the 15th, the morrow
after the passover', would have known that it was the evening of the
14th, and considered the 15th by those of the north. Usually when it
came to questions concerning the law the Pharisees were right.
Anyway, just an assumption.
Yours in Christ,
Rodger
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