Conference yukon::christian_v7

    So you'd recommend it?  No violence?  Where is it currently showing
    here in Sydney?
    
    James

No violence, 
 	no coarse language, 
 		no gratuitous sex (actually, no non-gratuitous sex either :^) )

Wonderful acting, great dialogue, terrific story, fantastic scenery, 
(someone pass me a superlative, please)

BUT definitely a weepy - take lots of tissues, and some for your wife too!

It's showing at the Village in George St. (& probably at other Greater Union 
theatres)

Chele

 
 Im a renegade who saw Kazanzaki's (sp) Last Temptation of Christ.
 Did anyone else ? 

 Did you think the bad press that it got from conservatives was fair?

 When I think of the verse that says He was tempted in all points like
 us, the critics (imo) might have missed the point.

 Some criticisms of the criticisms :

 For one thing Jesus was not portrayed as being a wimp towards Judas.
 He listened to his bad advice, tolerated him and ignored him.
 In one scene Judas tell Jesus "some day I'll kill you".
 Jesus nods in the affirmative without any emotion of fear.
 
 Jesus asks several people for spiritual advice, is that a sin?
 "He *grew* in wisdom...".

 incidentaly there is subtle humor in the film. Jesus is talking to a 
 wise man concerning communicating with God. The wise man says 
 "in the desert is the best place to be with God, but be careful, He's 
  not out there alone".

 His relationship with Mary Magdalene was portrayed as non-physical (unless
 you put your imagination in overdrive). In fact Mary Magdalene complains
 (before her conversion) because He *wont* be physical with her. His 
 swoon-dream on the cross included his marriage to Mary Magdalene and they 
 had children, but it was a dream... This was his "Last Temptation". Satan in 
 the form of an innocent little girl tells Christ "your Father sent me to tell 
 you that you've suffered enough and you should marry Mary Magdalene, while He 
 was on the cross and gave him some thoughts "you can have this if you really 
 want it", then the dream which He (Christ) ultimately rejects.

 Yes Jesus is portrayed as being in love with Mary Magdalene, but can't
 "being tempted in all points like unto us" include romantic love? 
  He was a real man with real temptations.

 The last scene was Christ on the cross awaking from the dream and rejoicing 
 that it (his marriage) was only a dream and that He was dying for the sins 
 of the world.

 To be sure there is a lot of speculative theology involved and Kazanzaki 
 pushes the meaning of His humanity to the limit (and maybe too far) but there 
 is (imo) a lot of food for thought. 

 I think it got an unfair review. Anyone else ?

 I realize many Christians dont go to movies, the film is now available 
 on video tape.

                                    Hank

> Did anyone else ? 

Yep -- I paid $1 to see it at my university, so that I could criticize it with-
out people retorting, "If you've never SEEN it, you have no right to criticize
it!"

> Did you think the bad press that it got from conservatives was fair?

Absolutely every bit of it.

> Yes Jesus is portrayed as being in love with Mary Magdalene, but can't
> "being tempted in all points like unto us" include romantic love? 
>  He was a real man with real temptations.

Is love a temptation? But in any case, while there is lots of evidence from
Scripture of Jesus's temptations in other areas, there is absolutely  no
evidence whatsoever that he was romantically inclined; actually he advocated
celibacy ("Some are eunuchs for the kingdom of God... Anyone who can accept
this, should accept this"), and seems, based on the Scriptural description,
to be entirely passionless (w.r.t. sexual passion).

Here is an interesting quote from the movie.  Remarkable that though this
was in the pre-released script that caused us (conservatives) to complain so
much, it stayed in the movie: "Lucifer is inside of me."

In the movie, Jesus is not merely a carpenter.  He is a carpenter who makes
crosses for the crucifixion of Jews, and he is portrayed as caring very little
about this fact; he is basically cast as a scumbag traitor to his own race and
nation.

in at least one part -- I can't remember much of the details now, but Jesus
actually says something to the effect of, "I've sinned greatly."  We, of course,
believe that Jesus lived his life without sin.

My impression was that Jesus was, in general, portrayed as a confused, mentally
unstable lunatic.  There was nothing positive about the Jesus portrayed by
Scorcese (sp?).  He certainly wasn't portrayed as being God as well as man.
There is a scene -- again, I can't remember the details anymore -- where the
Jesus of the movie acts like a real strange idiot.

Ironically the Jesus portrayed by the movie more closely represents Kazantantis
than it does Jesus: Kazantantis was a religiously confused individual; I think
he was at some point excommunicated by the Orthodox Church, and he wandered
through various world religious throughout his life and just never seemed to
find himself.  Not exactly a model Christian (I don't even think he ended his
life as a Christian).

There is no doubt a lot of discussion on this movie in the archives; check
out earlier versions of this conference, especially around the year of its
release.

Eric

    RE:  Shadowlands
    
    This movie has me interested, as the biography of C.S. Lewis (with the
    same name as the movie, I believe) was written by one of my college
    professors and photographed by my college photography instructor.  I
    think I have noticed on the signs that the movie carries an 'R' rating,
    which stands for 'Red alert' in my thinking.  Can anyone tell me why it
    would be rated 'R'?
    
    Mark L.

 took my kids to see Grumpy Old Men over the weekend.  If it wasn't for the
 language, the sexual activity/innuendos it would have been a fair movie.
 But, they can't seem to make a movie these day without that stuff. 

 The original plan was to see Schindler's List, but Chris and I decided that
 Scott wasn't quite ready for that one.  After seeing GOM, I wished we had
 stayed home.




 Jim

  Re 381.4

  I have to agree Eric that much of it probably went beyond the "humanity"
  of Christ. You would probably be interested to know that the RC Church
  states that Christ in his "acquiring knowledge" might have possibly
  been wrong (but not sinned) in some of the notions He entertained
  until His thinking matured. Yes really thin ice here :-).

   "The Word was made flesh"
  "He was made sin, who knew no sin" How did that make him feel in his 
   youth I wonder? maybe like "I have sinned greatly"?
   Many Christians confuse temptation and sin feeling guilty even for
   being tempted. He is our "compassionate" High Priest. I know, thin
   thin ice again :-).

  The movie was (imo) more wrong than right in theology,
  but it made me think seriously about just what it meant "He was tempted
  in all points..." 

  I thought it was worth it for that, but it was lost in the heat and
  zealousness of those who didnt.

  Hmmm, I didnt exactly get the impression that He was portrayed as a lunatic.
  A little strange at times though.

  Do you remember that even His Mother said "He is beside himself..."
  The Pharisees said "thou art mad and hath a devil.." (paraphrases...)
  although nothing in the Scripures would indicate bizaare behaviour.

  Yes i seem to remember other notes in other places Re this movie.

  Thanks for your comments...

                             Hank
  

    I saw Schindler's List on Friday. In a word, "Incredible". I have never
    been so moved by a movie in all my life. It must be seen by all. I
    would not take anyone younger that 16 to see it though. 
    
    Warning: Nothing is glossed over in this film, and nothing is hidden.
    
    Glenn

>    I saw Schindler's List on Friday. In a word, "Incredible". I have never
>    been so moved by a movie in all my life. It must be seen by all. 

Sigh.  I suppose I should, but I don't know that I'm up for it.  When I went
and saw "Sophie's Choice," I left the theater in a daze, went home and just
lay on a bed and sobbed over the unspeakable evil that humans are capable of.

I suspect that "Schindler's List" would be another such experience.

Paul

    Another THUMBS UP for "Shadowlands"!!  A wonderfully done movie. 
    Really made me think about the issue of suffering and its impact on our
    lives and our Christianity.
    
    Mark, I believe the rating is PG-13.  The story line of Joy's illness
    is very moving and I'm sure it would be hard for younger children to
    see this without the loving care of a parent, guardian or such to help
    interpret what was shown.
    
    Go see it! (and yes, bring a hanky or two!)
    
    -greta
    

>  I have to agree Eric that much of it probably went beyond the "humanity"
>  of Christ. You would probably be interested to know that the RC Church
>  states that Christ in his "acquiring knowledge" might have possibly
>  been wrong (but not sinned) in some of the notions He entertained
>  until His thinking matured. Yes really thin ice here :-).

Hmmm. As a devoted student of Catholic theology, I must admit I have not run
across this at all, but neither have I heard this proposition condemned. In any
case, if it were true, I think we would have to say that he achieved full
knowledge and omniscience by the time of his baptism.  In other words, if he
were wrong, it should make no difference to us, because none of what he would
have been wrong about is recorded in Scripture, since only his adult, post-
baptismal teachings are recorded in Scripture.

Personally I find the concept that Jesus could have ever been wrong anytime in
his life, doubtful.  Cf. his teaching in the temple.  Given that he was inspired
enough to teach and amaze the rabbis, the chances are good that he was inspired
and hence preserved from error even at this point in his life.

Incidentally I believe that the Catholic bishops issued a condemnation (of
sorts, not that the American bishops are wont to condemn anything anymore) of
TLTOC.

    Another vote for Shadowlands - it's wonderful. There's nothing
    objectionable in it - but it is heart-wrenching.
    
    Rebecca

    A few back:
    
    Why do you recommend "Schindlers...?
    
    Is it uplifting or edifying in any way?
    
    I am drawn to an exquisite movie as much as anyone I guess.  But I'm
    more selective these days.  If the movie is technically stunning (like
    Olive Stone's movies - Platoon, JFK, etc.) yet a seriously (radically?)
    worldly movie, I stay away.  
    
    So, what was so terrific about List?
    
    jeff

    Shadowlands is probably Sheila Walsh's best album ever!

    Personally,
    
    The area of movies has become a real sore spot for me lately.  I used
    to love watching movies and would watch a movie rated R and think that
    because I'm adult and know right from wrong, it couldn't effect me.
    
    But that's a lie from Satan.  God makes it very clear on what we should
    think upon... and where our minds should be set.  I recently went
    through my movie collection a dumped about 4 movies I had that were
    rated R or PG13...  Guess what PG is bothering me these days too.
    
    Shadowlands may be a GREAT MOVIE, but I need to understand the rating. 
    Are you saying that it's rated PG13 or R for any other reason, then
    sex, profanity or violence?  Please help me out on this.
    
    Nancy

re: .8 and .9

Having seen both "Sophie's Choice" and "Schindler's List", I can tell 
you, Paul, that "Schindler's List" is 100 times more emotionally draining.

The movie is incredible.  VERY graphic scenes of violence (I had to turn my 
head quite a few times), a few scenes of unnecessary nudity and some foul 
language from time to time.  Definitely not a movie for younger kids, 
although - the story is SO IMPORTANT!
                        ^^^^^^^^^^^^
Just an unbelievable experience.  Pray before going to see it though...and 
continue to pray after you've seen it. 

  Re 381.11 Hi Eric,

 > as a devoted student of Catholic theology, I must admit...

 I was surprised when I read it myself Eric. I'll try to identify the book.

 The Last Temptation assumes a normal human learning experience of Christ to 
 correct His wrong (or not quite correct) ideas which I thought was close
 to the movie line. whether Kazanzakis believed in the Deity of Christ, I
 dont know, but the Greek Orthodox Church is very strong on this doctrine
 and are Trinitarian.

 Thats a good point about his post-baptismal ministry.
  
 You know He said that He didnt know the exact moment when He would return...
 (a post-baptismal statement)
 but that only the Father knew, but thats a lot different than being wrong.
 Anyhow , does that mean He's not omniscient? Does He now know the day and
 the hour or did he mean (perhaps) that He didn't know it in the sense that 
 He couldnt convey it to us? Or perhaps He could have known if He wanted to
 but voluntarily withheld the information from Himself?

                            Hank

    Nancy,
    
    There's no sex, violence, or profanity in Shadowlands. The chief reason
    I can think of for the rating as far as children goes would be in the
    emotional content - dealing first with divorce, and then with the death of
    a parent (without going into detail as to what happens in the movie).
    
    Rebecca

    
    Yea, I believe its rated PG13 because of adult thematic content or
    something like that.  It's not for children (they'd be bored stiff).
    It is a terrific movie in every sense of the word (which is not
    necessarily saying a whole, whole lot).
    
    jeff

    Schindler's must be seen. 

    And then you must consider the thought,

    "This will happen again"


    	There is one scene in the movie where, and there is no doubt in my
    mind, God spared the life of a hinge maker.

    Though the sex and swearing seems unnecessary, it does show you what
    Schindler is dealing with. It shows you his internal struggle with
    wanting to do what is right and wanting to make piles of money and have
    lots of women. In the end, he does the right thing, and it's
    incredible. A hero who had no intention of being one but realized he
    had to be.

    Glenn

    .18 and .19
    
    Did you read  Steve McConnell's reply?  He claims there is some
    language and even nudity... did you guys not see this?

    re: .13
    
    Jeff,
    
    I recommend Schindler's List for a number of reasons, such as:
    
    1) to understand *how* this ever could have happened
    2) to be aware of the warning signs around us that it could easily
       happen again
    3) to witness the true *miracle* of these people's survival
    4) to be reminded that G-d can choose to use anyone - even a slug
       like Oskar Schindler - or perhaps you and me - to accomplish
       His purposes
    5) there is one scene in which, perhaps uknowingly, the Gospel is
       preached in parable form.
    
    Steve

    re: Shadowlands -
    a friend of mine saw it over the weekend, and he said that he thought
    it should have been G, except maybe for the death (and I wonder...
    hmm.. CS Lewis was a Christian, and so was she, - can't have any young
    kids seeing any of that stuff... ;-) that's my paranoid theory)
    
    re: Schindler's List -
    What is it rated?
    I'm starting to be really glad I didn't go see it over the weekend.
    

    Re .21 (Nancy)
    
    I noticed.  I'll probably pass on Schindler's List.  Shadowlands is
    still on the "possibility" list, though.
    
    Mark L.

    Shadowlands sounds like real possibility for me too. :-)

    re: .21
    
    I think Steve's reply is referencing Schindler's List, rather than
    Shadowlands.
    
    Rebecca

Shadowlands has a PG (Parental Guidance recommended) rating here in Australia 
- presumably because of the death/mourning scenes.

Chele

    I saw Schindler's List last night; it was riveting and worthy of all
    aclaim. Yes, there are a few bad words, but used appropriatly as
    an integral part of the personalities using them. I would hardly
    call the language that provocative unless you never go to see any
    movie with ANY bad words!
    
    The nudity was also appropriate for the truth of what was being
    depicted. [The most unnecessary nudity was the one or two very
    brief bed scenes and these were not in any way erotic.] The camp
    nudity was necessary in my view and it did not degrade those
    who were nude, but rather it pointed out the inhumanity of their
    captors.
    
    This movie was 3.5 hours and it seemed like only 1 hour. The
    violence was the hardest for me to take [people being shot], and
    I hate violence as a rule. However even though it was rough in
    spots, I am glad it was all there on the screne. This movie does
    not flinch and I think it is one of the most honest portraits of
    what went on that I have ever seen.
    
    Despite all the horror on the screen, I left the theater with
    thanksgiving to God for Schindler and all the unnamed people who
    affirm the dignity of life under the worst conditions. As the
    movie progresses we watch Schindler's growing awareness of the
    truth of the human situation he is in and his growing resolve to
    help the Jews. The scene where he leave the factory at the end was
    the summation of everything the viewer has also experienced and it
    was one of the most wrenching and affirming moments in my movie-going
    experiences. 
    
    The whole movie was gripping and touched me very deeply. The
    cinematography is outstanding. This is a great movie experience and
    one that should not be passed!
    

    <---- I agree 100%.
    
    It must be seen, it can't be missed. The story is too important.
    
    Glenn

        I question the recommendation to not take kids under 16 to see
    Schindler's List. My wife and I took out 10-year-old son and
    14-year-old daughter to see it. Yes, the violence is extremely graphic.
    The man's-inhumanity-to-man was the worst ever depicted in a movie. But
    this is history, not fiction. This realy happened and the reality was
    probably far worse than the film depiction. Children younger than mine
    lived, but mostly died, through the Holocaust. It is a movie the whole
    family should see then have a serious family discussion about what it
    meant and that IT MUST NOT HAPPEN AGAIN.
    
         A week after we saw Schindler's list we watched back-to-back
    episodes of I'll Fly Away on PBS. Another serious family discussion
    about the relationship between what was depicted in Schindler's list
    and what we saw about race relations in America not so very long ago.
    
     Mike
    

    	A great kids movie -- Monkey Trouble.  I only recall ever seeing
    	one ad for this movie, bur we were sold out of something else we
    	wanted to see so we tried this one.  Serendipity!
    
    	It's PG, though I can't remember seeing or hearing anything I can
    	attribute to earn that rating.
    
    	Great lessons from the movie.  All my kids (ages 12-6) loved it.

    My kids loved it too.

    We went to see Forrest Gump last night and enjoyed it greatly.  It
    addresses issues about growing up in the 60's and 70's, the Vietnam
    war, sex, and drugs.  It made some serious statements about things that
    occured during that period but was absolutely hilarious as well.  The
    rating is PG-13.  This is because of some language and some partial
    nudity.

    Nancy, knowing your feelings about such movies, you would not enjoy it.
    I'm not picking on you, I respect your stand on this.  However, I look
    at this as somewhat of a documentary on that period of time, where this
    stuff did occur.  They never depict this as OK.  In fact, the girl who
    is involved in this activity finally comes to realize that it is all a
    waste.

    There are some sad scenes as well, particularly near the end.

    The special effects are fantastic.  Especially what they did with some
    old news clips (I won't spoil it for you).

    Ron

    Uh, Ron, I saw it and loved it. :-)  I'm slipping up in my old age.
    
    

    RE: Gump
    
    I saw it and loved most of it.  What bothered me most about the movie
    wasn't the language, but the condesceding tone towards Christianity and
    the Liberal slant in general.
    
    Bing

 Interesting...I read a column by Pat Buchanon who called it a good 
 conservative movie :-)



 I haven't seen it yet..not sure if I will.


Jim

    I didn't find anything offensive in the movie.  What part was offensive
    to Christians?
    
    
    dh

    Language, nudity, etc.
    
    

    Maybe it was just how I perceived it.  Maybe I was just in one of those
    "sensitive" moods.
    
    There was one line in the movie that said something about someone
    asking Gump if he had "Found Jesus" and he made the comment that he
    something to the effect that he "wasn't looking for Him".  When his
    friend was in dispair, the general idea I perceived was that he needed to
    find the meaning of life within himself, rather that trying to "Find"
    Jesus.  I just came away feeling the blindness of the world to Jesus's
    love for each of us.
    
    The liberal slant that I saw was that it generally portrayed Democratic
    Presidencies in glowing terms, while pointing things like "Watergate" for
    the Republicans.
    
    But, I really did enjoy the movie.  The scene with Pres. Johnson was
    hilarious and I did get choked up at the end.
    
    Bing

    No it wasn't just you... I agree with everything  you've written.
    
    Another example of contemporary writers trying to change our thoughts
    about the history of this country is  can't remember the "Cowboy move
    with val dalmar [sp] regarding Doc Holiday and Wyatt Earp" and know not
    "Wyatt with Costner" the other one.  It's out on video.
    
    When Wyatt's younger brother spoke of life after death he spoke of the
    white light [common new age] and when he died he told Wyatt there was
    nothing there.
    
    Really grieved me watching this.  

>    <<< Note 381.34 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

>    Uh, Ron, I saw it and loved it. :-)  I'm slipping up in my old age.

    Whoa!  Glad you enjoyed it.

    Ron

RE:                       <<< Note 381.39 by ODIXIE::HUNT >>>
                           -< Maybe it was just me >-

   >    something to the effect that he "wasn't looking for Him".  When his
   > friend was in dispair, the general idea I perceived was that he needed to
   > find the meaning of life within himself, rather that trying to "Find"
   > Jesus.  I just came away feeling the blindness of the world to Jesus's
   > love for each of us.
   

   Interesting how the folks in Hollywood like to toss these things in movies
 isn't it?




 
    Jim

    Since we are talking about movies...

    Here is one that the entire family can watch and enjoy.  Rated "G"
    I believe.

	The Adventures of Milo and Otis

    It was filmed in Japan and the original narration was done in Japanese.
    The U.S. version is narrated by Dudley Moore and he does a fantastic
    job.  It is the story about Milo and Otis (a cat and dog, but not
    necessarily in that order, i.e., I can't remember which was which) who
    meet in a barn and become friends and go off on an adventure.  The kids
    will love this movie (including the kid in you adults as well).

    Ron

 Saw a fun movie while in Colorado..the folks I stayed with had taped it..
 The Incredible Journey (?)..remake of an older Disney movie..anyhow, I
 loved it.  Particularly the Golden Retriever..



Jim

    See, I took it differently.  (forrest gump)
    Its like, they showed him going to church, etc. and he was kind of not
    smart and said he didn't know he (Jesus) was lost.  
    
    But it wouldn't suprise me if the write meant it another way.
    
    
    dh

    >smart and said he didn't know he (Jesus) was lost.
    
    Yea, that was the line.  His friend was angry at God and the world.
    He asked Forest some kind of question about religion and Forest relayed
    the story about the person asking him if he (Forest) had found Jesus. 
    Forest answered that he didn't know He (Jesus) was lost.
    
    Bing 

    I saw Forest Gump. I thought it was great and I will see it again ! 
    Well, after I see the Little Rascals. A friend saw the Little Rascals 
    and said  it was great, especially if you grew up watching them.

     Jim

    Nancy's talking about "Tombstone."  I really liked that movie, despite
    that line.
    
    My kids also love "Milo & Otis."

 Didn't see Tombstone, but I did see Wyatt Earp.  Loved it (though it 
 was a bit on the bloody side).




 JIm

	I just saw Forrest Gump, and liked it mostly.

	The part that bothered me most was near the beginning,
	where the mother "took an active role" in getting him
	into public school...

	Karen 

    I forgot about that.  Hmm.  I certainly don't agree with the, um,
    method used, but I didn't let that ruin the movie for me.  I liked it
    alot.  It was true to life in that it showed the ups and downs, good
    and bad stuff that happen to people.   
    
    dh 

    re .51
    
    Well... SOME of it was true to life.  Except how Gump had a had in
    shaping just about all of history (ie, Smiley face, Watergate, etc.).
    
    Bing

    True.  You are correct a moondo.
    
    
    Donna

	I have Milo and Otis on tape. I too thought it was great. 

	Now, I have always wondered this, and maybe someone will answer it for
me. Why is it if there is a movie that has the government in it you get stuff
like:

    The liberal slant that I saw was that it generally portrayed Democratic
    Presidencies in glowing terms, while pointing things like "Watergate" for
    the Republicans.

    Another example of contemporary writers trying to change our thoughts
    about the history of this country is  can't remember the "Cowboy move
    with val dalmar [sp] regarding Doc Holiday and Wyatt Earp" and know not
    "Wyatt with Costner" the other one.  It's out on video.



	Could it just possibly be that these people ACTUALLY see it this way?
Could it just possibly be that they are not out to change anyones mind and are
just making a movie for entertainment value (and $$)? You people really amaze
me sometimes, you really do.



Glen

 These movies/TV shows made for the "entertainment" value frequently
 show Christianity/Christian values in a negative light.  Just this morning
 while having a cup of coffee I clicked on the tube.  I happened on some
 program (what I don't know but it had laugh tracks) and there was a man
 portraying a pastor greedily admiring a wad of bills and sticking them in 
 his pocket.  Many times we'll see pastors/ministers/priests portrayed 
 as greedy/crooks, etc.

 It is extremely rare to see Christianity/Christian values portrayed as
 real or positive.  They are usually presented as antiquated myths and
 havingn little value.  Several months ago I took my kids to see the
 3 Musketeers (most recent version) and was astounded at a scene where
 one of the heroes (don't know his name) and a woman were reading the Bible
 together and were driven with desire and jokingly/mockingly talked of their
 sin as they were obviously aroused.


 Its there..Hollywood is full of those who would trample the message of
 the Bible and Christianity.  



 JIm

    I was out yesterday so I missed some of the discussion on FG.   Our
    minister had a few things (negative) to say about htis movie, but my
    take on it was that this is a docu-type movie, the things forrest did
    and said were very much his nature.  Walking thru the locker room
    totally unashamed of his "condition" was typical.  Taking someone
    literally when asked "did you find Jesus" was again typical behavior. 
    If these things were changed, you wouldn't have seen his sensitive and
    innocent nature.  I thought the movie was great and I felt it.  I felt
    what was happening to Forrest as he was running thru the jungles,
    shrimping in the gulf, etc.  It was a well done documentary of this
    man.
    
    -s
    
    (Now I'll go back and read what everyone else said)
    
    

    Glen,
    
    It's real simple...
    
    Out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks.
    
    James said that you can not have bitter and sweet water flowing out of
    the same fountain.
    
    In other words, what we say and do will eventually and inevitably
    reveal what is in the heart.  I'm not going to say that EVERY time a
    slight against Christ or the church is made it's part of some grand
    conspiracy (though there is an overt and deliberate warfare being
    waged) but I will say that when it happens it reveals the unregenerate
    nature of their hearts and discloses just who their lord really is.  On
    the spiritual level the attack on Christ and his people is always
    deliberate.
    
    Kent
    

	But I'm not so sure that it is an attack on Christ at all. Against the
people who talk about Christ maybe, but I think there is a major difference
between people and Christ. People are human, people make mistakes, and it's
those mistakes that the movies seem to go after. An example was given about the
priest looking at the money and his eyes getting big. That is a HUMAN thing.
When they have movies about televangelists, that is a HUMAN thing. If they
mention that Christ is bad, then they are attacking Christ. Can you see the
difference? Each and everything they have touched on when it comes to the human
issues, have all pretty much happened in the past. The difference is that
Christians take it as a slam against God. It is a slam against the actions
these people have done.


Glen

    >Could it just possibly be that these people ACTUALLY see it this way?
    >Could it just possibly be that they are not out to change anyones mind
    >and are just making a movie for entertainment value (and $$)? You people 
    >really amaze me sometimes, you really do.
    
    Sure they ACTUALLY see it this way.  Could it be that they are just
    doing a moving for entertainment value?  Possible, but I doubt it. 
    Remember English literature, where you took a book apart and looked at
    all the symbolism in it.  Sometimes I would think, "How do they know
    that it was a symbol of something else.  Maybe the writer just wrote it
    at face value".  I think sometimes we CAN disect thinks too finely. 
    But, writers generally do try to deliver a message in their story
    (remember the MORAL of the STORY).  That message is usually embedded in
    the emotion of the story and can tend to be pursuasive in nature.
    
    Regarding government, I think a "balanced" view does not lead to take one
    side or the other.  The fact is that there have been postives and
    negatives on both sides of the equation.  Just present it in a balanced
    way.  BTW, I'm not real trusting of either side as a whole.
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing 
                                                               

	Thanks fer being honest Bing. You cleared up a lot with what you wrote.
Thanks a bunch! :-)


Glen

    
    Not really a movie, but I just caught an ad on TV for Christy.
    
    	It said, "Thanks to your cards and letters, Christy returns
    	this Wednesday night at 8pm"
    
    	I missed the first shows, and am SO happy for its return!
    
    	Karen
    

    Yeah, and when is it on?  Wendesnday night at 8:00.  I'm just leaving
    church at that hour.  Bummer!
    
    At least it's not on Sunday mornings!!
    
    -s
    

    
    
    >    Yeah, and when is it on?  Wendesnday night at 8:00.  I'm just
    >    leaving  church at that hour.  Bummer!
    
    
     Yeah but Wednesdays don't count! :-) (it's a joke)

 Jeepers, how many times do you go to church in a week?  Isn't once
 enough? ;-)




Jim

    Ya know whay I hate...being sick on a Sunday morning (hasn't
    happened-to me-in years) and finding nothing on TV to watch.  I
    remember when I was little I used to watch Community Auditions in the
    Boston area.
    
    Now you all know how old I am!!
    
    -s
    

Well, theoretically most everyone in Germany went to church today.

After all, that's why it's a national holiday, so they can go to church.

/john

	Sandy,

	I didn't even think of that!  Guess our VCR will be turning,
	too!

    	Anyone hear of the mail order company called Feature Films for
    	Families?
    
    	They only offer family-oriented movies.  They even make some of
    	their own.  We haven't come across one objectionable offering
    	yet.

    Joe,
    
    I got a call from them once but decline because I had never
    heard of them before.  They will be calling back in a couple
    weeks (at the time he said 6 months so it's about time).
    
    So you are happy with them?
    
    Pam

    	Very.  Films are on the order of $10 each.  Our kids really
    	like them.

    We were contacted a couple of years ago and received many great films. 
    They would call every three months or so and ask if you were interested
    in their "top selection".  You could say yeah or nay and they would
    either ship the films, or suggest they call back in a few months with
    other choices.
    
    Was great.  Now they work like the columbia house record company in
    that they send you the films, you decide whether to keep or not and are
    billed if you do.  There is no minimum yearly commitment.  I stopped
    participating because it is a hassle to me to have to return videos I
    don't want - and I told them so.
    
    -s
    

    Feature Films for Family is owned and marketed by a member of the
    Church of Mormon.  If it's the same one I contacted.  
    
    Nancy

    FEN (Family Entertainment Network) is LDS.

    .73
    
    Thanks, then they're not one and the same.
    
    Family Feature films might be something else... never heard of them.
    

>    Thanks, then they're not one and the same.

I think "LDS" is "Latter Day Saints," which is the Mormon Church.

Paul

    Family Entertain Network
    Family Feature Films 
    
    Are they one and the same? :-)

    No, their different.  Family Feature Films is family oriented movies,
    which don't usually deal with spiritual matters.
    
    Is Family Enter. Network the one where they have the cartoons of
    various biblical events?  If so, I know they had a big advertisement
    during one of the Gaither's Julilate concerts on New Years Eve (They
    helped sponser the concert).  This is the first I've heard of them
    being associated with the mormon church.
    
    Bing

>    Is Family Enter. Network the one where they have the cartoons of
>    various biblical events?  If so, I know they had a big advertisement
    
    Yes they feature animated films.  The 2 guys that started are LDS
    members that came from Disney.  I have some info on this at home and
    will try to remember to bring it in tomorrow.  
    
    Some of the stories have the LDS-bias to them, as opposed to the
    Biblical presentation.
    
    Mike

    I don't know about the cartoons.  The Family Entertainment Network puts
    out films like "The Applecreek Gang" or something like that about a
    group of boys who are Christian and do good in their community.
    
    They put out many other films as well.  They are morally sound and
    good.

    	FFforF isn't the one that has the biblical cartoons and such.
    	They sell videos that aren't necessarily religion-based at all.
    	For instance we got "Where the Red Fern Grows" and Old Yeller
    	from them.  They also sell videos that they've produced themselves.
    	One was about a family of kids who are orphaned and encounter
    	some adventures trying to find their Uncle Jack to live with him so
    	that they don't have to get split up.  And another one about a
    	pioneer couple who lose theor daughters to disease while crossing
    	the western prairies, and then adopt a "difficult" boy and they
    	all grow together to form a new family.  
    
    	The story subjects and the level of violence/language (or lack
    	thereof) in their own productions remind me very much of the 
    	fare from "Wonderful World of Disney" when I was growing up.
    	We have never sent back anything they've sent us.  Once the kids
    	view their films, they want to keep them.  In fact, we've sent
    	in the $100 for a film per month for a year, and have practically 
    	used up our first year, and will renew when the time comes.
    
    	As for Mormon (or whatever) affiliation, I don't see the need 	
    	for concern.  In most cases family morals and family standards
    	are relatively universal among God-loving religions.  If we
    	were buying films depicting biblical and religion-history events
    	I might be concerned about such films being made/distributed by
    	a non-Christian organization, but we're talking family
    	entertainment here, not serious religious education.

    {from "The Cross" - printed by Concerned Christians, P.O. Box 18, Mesa,
    AZ 85211}

    WARNING: Animated Stories From the NT are Affiliated with Mormonism!
    --------------------------------------------------------------------
    "Animated Stories from the NT" is a high-quality cartoon version of the
    Bible.  Family Entertainment Network (FEN) originally produced this
    series and tried to market it in the Christian community a few years
    ago.  However, FEN received criticism due to their involvement with the
    Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    In an attempt to satisfy the critics, FEN edited its videos to remove
    questionable material.  On recent television commercials, FEN boasts
    that their animated series is "the most accurate" of all cartoon
    versions of the NT.  Also FEN employs Christian celebrities as
    promoters; therefore adding creditability to their presentation. 
    Unfortunately, some customers who called FEN's 800 number and ordered a
    video, have received a phone call from a missionary for the Church of
    Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  These missionaries inquire of the
    purchasers if they enjoyed the video and ask if a representative can
    stop by to discuss its contents.

    Currently, advertisement for the "Animated Stories from the NT" names
    NEST Entertainment as the producer with the remark, "formerly Family
    Entertainment Network," listed in fine print at the bottom of the
    screen.  The Christian television station, Family Net, is airing the
    latest infomerical for the series with Debbie Boone as the
    spokesperson.  Before and after this half-hour commercial airs, a
    statement appears saying that Family Net does not necessarily endorse
    this product.

    We viewed one of these videos about the life of Jesus before they
    revised it.  It depicted Jesus shedding His blood in the Garden of
    Gethsemane for the sins of Adam only and did not highlight the cross at
    all.  They believe that we must work out our own salvation and that the
    blood that was shed was for Adam alone.

    Whether they have edited these videos to be more acceptable to the
    Christian community is not the issue.  The fact is that the stock of
    this company is owned by two Mormon men who use the money earned to
    support the LDS church.  They also use them to contact unsuspecting
    uses of the videos to promote the deception of Mormonism, luring people
    away from the Jesus of the Bible to the Jesus of Mormonism.

    RE: Shadowlands
    	Have not seen this one yet, but while looking though a Christian
    book catalog from a company in Peabody, Massachusetts, there was a note
    by a video of the same or similer name that specified that it was a PBS
    production that was NOT to be confused with the movie mentioned in this
    note previously. Look for it in your Christian book store.
    	
    	This note is for movies I know but just had to mention this. A
    recent show of The Simpsons (U.S. animated cartoon, primetime show) had
    one of the main characters (Bart) quoting scripture! This is not the
    first time either.
    
    	Other things to look for in your video store:
    
    	The Life And Times Of Jesus - Put out by Readers Digest, available
    in both English and Spainish.
    	A Christian friend warns against this a little bit as when it was
    aired on TV it was sponcered by Procter & Gamble. On the surface, it is
    good to look at to see the places and things that are mentioned in the
    bible. Worth renting at least.
    
    Donald
    

    RE: Shadowlands
    
    There is another version of Shadowlands that was produced years ago. My
    mother has a copy and I watched it after seeing the recent version in
    the theatres. It's well worth seeing if you have the opportunity - in some
    ways I liked it better than the recent version - it gives a more
    indepth look at C.S. Lewis and the development of the relationship
    between Lewis and Joy Davidman. My brother, mother and I all agreed
    that the two movies complement one another.
    
    Rebecca        

    FEN called me last night wanting me to buy some of their movies.  I was
    surprised they didn't ask why when I said, "No!"
    
    Mike

    
    Last night Nathan and I and my neices went to see a sneak preview
    of "Miracle on 34th St."  It was wonderful.  They changed the
    story slightly from the original but it had the same gentle
    spirit.  
    
    I believe the movie is rated "G".  There were absolutely no
    swear words, no sex and only on incidence of violence that
    had grave concequences.
    
    The kids (age 3, 6, and 7) loved it.  They all want to go
    back again.
    
    It was refereshing to see a movie that truly plays to the
    children.
    
    I highly recommend it.
    
    Pam

 What??? a "G" rated movie?? No swearing??...can't be..






 Jim

    Honestly!  I was amazed too!  I hope that this movie does well
    and Hollywood gets the message that we want more wholesome
    movies for our kids!
    
    Pam

>I hope that this movie does well
>    and Hollywood gets the message that we want more wholesome
>    movies for our kids!

They don't seem to want to get that message, or the message that we want more
wholesome movies for ourselves.  "Driving Miss Daisy" was a huge hit a couple
of years ago, and they were all amazed, but they kept on cranking out sex and
violence movies.  Then this year, "Forrest Gump" is already the 5th highest
grossing movie ever produced, and should soon move into 4th.  Once again they
are amazed.

It is obvious to the most casual observer that there is huge amounts of money
to be made in making wholesome, positive movies.  That the movie executives
can't seem to pick up on that fact really makes me question where their heads
are at.

Paul

    	Miracle on 34th St is rated PG.

    I saw it as rated G in the newspaper... I coulda sworn it said G.

    	Actually I haven't seen the rating.  I just recall my wife's
    	distress at the fact that she saw a PG rating on it...

    Hmmmm .... I know there is a NEW movie out that is G rated and it's a
    Christmas story... I'm almost positive Miracle on 34th Street was it.
    
    Will check tonight.

    Maybe the movie your wife is thinking about is "The Santa Clause"
    because I also believe the miracle on 34th street is rated G.
    
    Sylvain

    I checked in the paper the other night after Pam (?) reviewed it.  The
    Atlanta Constitution listed it as PG.
    
    Bing

    They must have different ratings, I checked the paper last night here
    and it said G. 

 Are there any movies out these days which are worth seeing (other than
 that already in discussion)?  




Jim

	This Friday the Lion King will be back in the theaters. 

    re .96
    
    I took the kids to see "Angels in the Outfield" last week (we usually
    wait until they come to the $1.50 movie 8^)).  We all thoroughly
    enjoyed it.
    
    Bing

 re "Lion King"...no real desire to see that one..


 Angels in the Outfield?  may check that out..

 Snarf!

Doh!  Missed the snarf!

 I wonder how they could take a movie like "Miracle on 34th St" and make
 it PG.  I saw an add on TV last night..."Some material may not be suitable
 for Children"...geesh..




Jim

What are the ratings and their significance?  I know PG is Parental 
Guidance, but I don't know if any age limit is attached to it, or how it 
compares to the age tags.  I don't know if ratings are the same on both 
sides of the Atlantic, but don't frequent the cinema myself.  

							Andrew

    G  = General Audiences (suitable for all ages)
    PG = Parental Guidance (not age restriction applies, but parents should
         decide whether the film is suitable for children)
    PG13=Parental Guidance (no age restriction applies.  The ratings board
         has determined that the material may not be appropriate for
         children under the age of 13).
    R= Restricted (Supposedly restricted to those 17 and over).
    X= Adults Only (Mostly Porn)
    
    At least thats my understanding.
    
    Bing

 PG doesn't carry an age rating but says "Parental Guidance Suggested..some
 material may not be appropriate for children"

 PG13 says "not recommended for children under 13" (or something to that
 effect..though it seems like many of the PG13 should be "R" from what I've
 seen..

 R means "restricted" no one under 17 admitted without a parent/guardian..I
 don't think this is strictly enforced..



Jim

 Thanks, Bing...

 There's also NC-17, which I believe is in between X and R..




Jim

    
    You're correct about NC-17, except I believe it was an effort by the
    industry to get around the negative conotation of "X", not somewhere in
    between.  In the Daryl McClusky rating system, NC-17 = UNACCEPTABLE FOR
    ALL AUDIENCES.

    I rented "Shadowlands" over the weekend (the one with Anthony Hopkins
    and Debra Winger).  I thought it was a great movie, though very sad!  Nice 
    to see a presentation without foul language and skin flints running around. 
    Amazing that some in Hollywood still remember how to make movies like
    this.  
    
    Mike

 Saturday I rented "The Lion, The Witch and the Wardrobe".  I'd never seen
 it before, and Scott hadn't either...great movie..





 Jim

    Took in "Shadowlands" a few months ago, although I missed the initial
    advertised showing (which was only about 2 weekS) , but caught it at
    a later date. I had to chase it to a small theater's matine'e one
    afternoon. THIS MOVIE WAS GREAT! It had dry humor (english), and a
    storyline (C.S. Lewis' life story) and developed into the theme (love).
    Both Hopkins and Debra Winger's acting was quite good in this off the 
    beaten path movie. I was impressed and moved so much I tried to buy it
    locally and found another video made in the late sixtys by English
    film group and shown on PBS. GOOD BUT NOT GREAT! A little condensed,
    less characterization, but good. Believe it or not the American Holly-
    wood version was better....actually OUTSTANDING!.....OH by the way be
    prepared to be emotionally moved to tears. All of us in the theater
    that afternoon were weeping in the statement pure LOVE and COMITMENT.
    
                      ALL BEST IN CHRIST'S LOVE.....JACK PERRY

	Yup, Jamie and I loved it, too (and I cried, but he didn't ;-) )

    Friday evening Cathey and I watched an excellent movie titled
    "Heart and Souls".  It was funny at times and a real tear jerker at
    others.  The movie is rated PG-13, although I'm not sure why as I have
    seen PG movies that had worse stuff.  However, that may not be saying
    much.  My guess would be because the movie deals with death.  There are
    a couple of scenes that could have been left out (as usual), but
    otherwise was excellent.

    Ron

    .112
    
    Saw it, enjoyed it myself.. but WOULD NOT let my children see it.
    

     I did a directory of this note and didn't see the title of this
     movie in here - my husband and I watched it Sunday evening on a 
     video loaned to us by the rabbi of the Messianic Jewish synogogue
     we attend.  I enjoyed it very much and I'm not really a movie person.

     The story is about a rabbi who came to this country from Poland
     back in the mid 1800s.  He had been appointed to be the Rabbi for 
     a group of people in San Francisco.  Due to a set of circumstances, 
     he finds himself being guided across the country to San Francisco 
     by a bank robber.  It is funny, adventurous, and makes some good 
     points about faith and integrity as well.  Harrison Ford is the bank 
     robber and Gene Wilder is the Rabbi.  When I mention the film to other 
     people who have seen it, most respond with a comment about the part 
     with the Indians (that's a little teaser for you all ;-) ).

     Leslie

    I agree Leslie, that movie is a classic and I have always enjoyed it.
    2 thumbs up from me also.   Maybe you and I can become the Siskel and
    Ebert of this topic..   :)
    
    Sylvain
    

	Keep the suggestions coming - I'm very disappointed with
	the viewing choices lately.  Shadowlands and Searching for
	Bobby Fisher are the only two decent movies we've seen in
	a long while...

	Leslie and Sylvain, do you know what heading "Frisco Kid"
	would be under at the video store ? Drama, comedy, adventure ??

    I saw "When a Man Loves a Woman" the same day I saw "Shadowlands." 
    Both are a couple of real tear-jerkers.

	Is that the one with Meg Ryan ??

	I'm sure it would be a tear-jerker for me...

	BTW - how do you find time to watch 2 movies in 1 day ???

	;-)

    Has anyone seen "The Pagemaster".  From the previews, it didn't seem
    appropriate viewing for my kids.  When I drove by the theater on the
    way to work this morning, though, I noticed it was rated "G".  Very,
    very few films get a "G" rating.  
    
    Bing

    Bing,
    
    We took my 11 year old niece to see The Pagemaster and we all enjoyed
    it - she laughed out loud through much of it. It also got a good write 
    up in the Atlanta paper - however, several folks in the Movie file
    absolutely hated it, and said their younger children were bored. So.... 
    A good portion of the film is animated, but not the beginning and the end. 
    It's basically about a little boy who's afraid of *everything*, and his 
    adventures (the animated part) with three book friends, Adventure, Fantasy,
    and Horror, that help him overcome his fears. It's not *incredible*, but 
    it's a good little movie, we thought (five adults and one child).
    
    Rebecca  

    Re: 2 movies in 1 day
    
    it was during the holiday weekend.

	even moreso!

	;-)

    Thanks Rebecca.  Did you think the "G" rating was appropriate?
    
    The only preview I saw seem to have a lot of sorcery involved (but then
    it didn't show any of the antimated parts of the movie).
    
    Bing

Richard Rich, a former Disney animator, and now the driving force behind
The Family Entertainment Bible videos you may have seen advertised on TV,
has recently released "The Swan Princess" in theaters across the country
as his company's first major theatrical release.

My wife and I took our two children to see it a couple weeks back and we
thoroughly enjoyed it.  It's an animated musical based upon the story of 
Swan Lake and is rated G.  The "bad guy" in the movie is an evil sorcerer,
but it's not very scary for kids and a clear statement is made about black
magic being bad.  The music is great, the character development is outstanding
and the animation is very close to, but not quite as polished as Disney's.

FWIW,
Dan

    RE: .123
    
    Bing,
    
    I did think the "G" rating appropriate for The PageMaster. I don't
    remember a sorcerer at all, although I guess the PageMaster himself may
    have resembled/been one, but he wasn't really in the movie very long. 
    It's really more about books, and about a child overcoming his fear by 
    learning to care about others more than himself and his fears. At least 
    that's what I got out of it. 
    
    I've also heard that The Swan Princess is very good - I want to see that 
    too :-).
    
    Rebecca 
    

    Thanks Rebecca!
    
    Bing

    My family and I went to a special preview of "The Jungle Book" Saturday
    evening.  It was a double feature with "The Santa Clause".  I thought
    "The Santa Clause" was OK, but I REALLY enjoyed "The Jungle Book".  It
    was a high packed adventure along the lines of Indiana Jones, but I
    didn't noticed any objectional language in it.  The are a couple of
    scenes which might frighten young children (snake and tiger attacking
    people), although it is NOT graphic violence.  You never actually see
    people getting clawed, etc.  I highly recommend it.  It is the best
    movie I have been to see in a long time.
    
    Bing

	Seeing the previews for that made me think Disney was going in reverse.
Making real movies out of cartoons. :-)  It's one I definitely want to see. 


Glen

    >Seeing the previews for that made me think Disney was going in reverse.
    >Making real movies out of cartoons. :-)  It's one I definitely want to
    >see.
    
    Actually, there is a book named "The Jungle Book" from which both are
    based.  I sensed that the movie followed the book much more closely
    than the cartoon did.  
    
    My two oldest sons both liked "The Santa Clause" better.  My wife and I
    both liked "The Jungle Book" better.  It's definitely a movie that
    adults will enjoy, but which you're not afraid to take your kids to
    see.
    
    Bing
    
    Bing

    I watched the PBS award winning "Chronicles of Narnia" for the first time
    last night.  Great movie for the whole family, and I loved the
    symbolism!

    >I watched the PBS award winning "Chronicles of Narnia"
    
    Which one.  We have taped both "The Silver Chair" and "Prince Caspian". 
    Does anyone know if they made other episodes?
    
    Bing

    "Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe"

RE:        <<< Note 381.132 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>

   > "Lion, Witch, and the Wardrobe"



  did you notice that the first time Aslan's name was mentioned, the kids
  had big smiles on their faces? (assuming you saw the same production I did).




Jim

    No I don't, maybe it was one of the few times I had to step out.  BTW -
    This wasn't the animated version.

"The Jungle Book" is by Rudyard Kipling.  He was also responsible for the 
"Just So stories", oh best beloved. On of the more notable of these is 
"The Elephants Child" set on the banks of the great grey green greasy Limpopo 
River, all set about with fever trees.

Chele

RE:        <<< Note 381.134 by FRETZ::HEISER "Grace changes everything" >>>
                        -< full color and real people >-

   > No I don't, maybe it was one of the few times I had to step out.  BTW -
   > This wasn't the animated version.



    Yep, that's what I saw...I just recall that the name Aslan was first 
    mentioned, and the kids had smiling/peaceful looking faces..as if just
    the name was enough to bring peace..




 Jim

    >"The Jungle Book" is by Rudyard Kipling
    
    I thought that was his name, but I wasn't sure so I decided not to put
    it in.  I love that name "Rudyard Kipling".  It just sounds like a
    distinguished authors name.
    
    Thanks Chele.
    
    Bing

Yeah, but he's not politically correct anymore.

"Lesser breeds without the law" appears in his most famous hymn "God of our
Fathers, known of old" (Old Hundred Twelfth).  He was being sarcastic of
British attitudes, but the line still got all three of his hymns removed
from the 1982 Episcopal Hymnal.  His other really famous one was "Non
nobis, Domine" based on the Psalm of the same name.

/john

� I honor Miriam, and Priscilla, and Sarah, as my Foremothers!
Only if you're Jewish!  Which, of course, you may well be.  But not so many 
of us are.

[ I hesitate to mention ... the Sarah of 1 Peter 3:5-6 ?  Not trying to stir it.
  Not really.]

I'm going to have to go soon.  It's our carol service tonight (is that
a lady's name to balance all those hymns?), and time is speeding ahead 
here in the UK.  Sorry if that sounds trite or flippant.  I'm happy to wipe 
it if you don't find it palatable.  I would like to wish you all a very
blessed Christmas, in case some take tomorrow off. 

				In Jesus' love
							Andrew

    
    I'm not usually one of these people that go overboard about what
    messages filmmakers are trying to push because I can usually
    think "hey I disagree with you."  But I am a little concerned at
    the trend I see coming out of Disney in regard to kids who can't
    always be as discerning.  I recently saw the Jungle Book with a
    friend and their was a preview for Pocahantas being released in
    the next year.  The clip gave a very politically correct statement
    about our environment and about the spirituality of all living
    things - animals, plants, etc...  Does this kind of stuff bother
    anybody else?  You practically have to go back to having a video
    collection of kid movies we grew up on to avoid this stuff
    especially with as much hype as Disney is putting on these films.
     
    Jill

    .141
    
    I saw it too Jill.  It was alarming to me as well.  The Jungle Book was
    a great movie, I and my boys really enjoyed it.
    
    I saw the "mask" which was targeted kids audience as well and was VERY
    alarmed at its message.  The "mask" made him steal and in the end the
    "real" bad guys paid for his actions.  Talk about the blame someone
    else get away with poor behavior psychology!
    
    Nancy

>    The clip gave a very politically correct statement
>    about our environment and about the spirituality of all living
>    things - animals, plants, etc...

First, remember that the new agers and politically correct did not
invent concern for our environment.  Go back to the book of Genesis
for that.

Secondly, "the spirituality of all living things" is a persuasion
(a faith statement) about the whole.  In other words, we are part 
of a closed system on earth and damaging our environment not only
affect it but us as well.  There are no acts that truely affect 
no one but yourself.  PeeCee environmental spiritualism is the 
persuasion that removes a personal God from the whole.  God becomes
the whole rather than the creator of the whole.  This "kind of stuff"
causes friction with my persuasion that God is a Person separate from 
His creation, but this is in no way incongruous with respect for our
enviroment.

We must be careful not to throw out the baby (care for our world: a Christian
duty) with the bathwater (the concept that God is our world and all things).
In fact, I think we need to be clear that this is not a new age concept,
as if to hold environmental concern means you associate yourself with
the new age movement.  We can be Christian environmentalists who apply
spirituality to our actions and attitudes towards all living things.

Mark

    .143
    
    Having seen the clip Mark I comment on it a little further.  The clip
    showed in the clouds typical indian spiritualistic belief.  The clouds
    took on the form and shape of ghost buffalo and other animals believed
    to be indwelling in each person.  Each person has the "spirit" of an
    animal associated with them...this is their "spirit guide".
    
    This is the message subtly being portrayed.

    
    Mark, I agree.  We are stewards of the earth that God put us on
    and even the heavens we fly around in.  But I'm talking about that
    PC, new-age stuff that goes way beyond that.  In the clip there was 
    this little twinkle that appeared on the deer, the tree, etc...
    as they sang about how every living thing had a spirit and by us
    doing something thoughtless (like hunting) we were cleaning a
    living being.  And what's more they are play free and easy with
    history.  If that's all kids see about Pocahontas, what will 
    they believe about her and the God she believed in.
    
    Last night I received a newsletter from Wallbuilders, a christian
    historian company dedicated to restoring this nation back to her
    christian roots.  They have a new series of Great American posters and
    Pocahontas was one of them.  This indian princess only lived 22 years. 
    At 14 she had compassion on John Smith as her tribe was ready to smash
    his head in and her pleading saved his life.  Later a rival tribe
    kidnapped Pocahontas and sold her to the English whom she liked very
    much.  She had always enjoyed challenging english boys to cartwheel
    contests.  She eventually earned her freedom but did not return to her
    people. She met John Rolfe, an englishmen, who told her about Christ
    and she was the first new christian in the Virginia settlement.  She
    married Rolfe and changed her name to Rebecca.  They had a son named
    Thomas. They visited England and she was treated as royalty.  Before
    returning for home, Rebecca fell ill and died.
                  
    Jill

    I saw Forrest Gump last night.  I really enjoyed it.  
    
    Pam

  I saw Forrest Gump last night...I really enjoyed it





 Jim

Strange coincidence, I also saw Forrest Gump last night and basically
enjoyed it, though the language would not recommend it to a Christian
gathering.

- steve

    I saw it last week.

    We watched Forrest Gump last night and enjoyed it (again).  With the
    exception of a few parts it is an excellent movie.

    I assume those who watched it have purchased the video?  We bought a
    copy for our personal collection.

    Ron

 I didn't buy it, just happened to be in the rental store as they were putting
 them on the shelf.  I usually don't buy any movies that come out (though
 I make some exceptions).




 Jim

    I haven't bought it and I won't because its not a movie I want my kids
    picking out of the collection to watch.  
    
    One of Christian's previous noters asked me how I dealt with the woman
    who had been abused by her father's drama in the film.  I have to admit
    I cried my eyes out.  That movie brought me through more emotions than
    any movie I've seen in a long time.

    Nancy,  I agree with you 100%.  I personally enjoyed the movie
    but I don't think some of the questionable scenes are appropriate
    for young kids.  
    
    I too cried my eyes out.  It's a good movie to watch alone.  
    
    Pam

    	Maybe I missed it, but I didn't see any discussion of Jusassic
    	Park in this topic.  With it coming out on TV this Sunday (I'd
    	expect it to be somewhat edited for TV) do you think this is
    	an appropriate movie for, say, a 10-year-old?  Why (or why not?)
    	What age (if any) might be appropriate?  What was this movie
    	rated?
    
    	As for Gump, we saw that in the theater.  Not for kids, I would
    	say.  I was disconcerted to see that a local business was having
    	an essay contest about the movie for kids ages 8-12.  Given that
    	it is a PG-13 movie, what does that say about the expectations
    	of movie-rating compliance in this society?

 There was a discussion somewhere in here about Jurassic Park when it first
 came out.  I don't think there's anything all that bad for a 10 year old from
 what I can remember (I saw it less than a year ago).  It was violent in
 spots of course, and a bit scary, and the language was not all that great.
 But, not as bad as other films of the recent past.


 Jim

 See topic 239...




 Jim

	Never saw Jurassic Park, but I'll bet Weird Al's version is better!

    How old is the young boy in JP?

    Hello :')

    as I mentioned in chit-chat, Kaz and I hired 'Shadowlands' (the recent
    [1994] version). And cried our eyes out. (well, me particularly).

    About the various ratings (PG vs G), my guess is that the 'harder'
    rating would have been given for the difficult concepts (re: death and
    dying, and perhaps the pain of divorce - although this is not covered
    in great detail) - there was no violence - well... One scene late in the
    movie where Lewis is given platitudes by a Reverend and he explodes in
    temper. The grief he is going through is shaking his faith. he is
    _experiencing_ the 'Problem of Pain' - not merely observing as he has
    been able to do for many a year.

    He no longer has the answers to the questions he asks. His confidence
    is shaken in himself. And I believe that this made him a richer man for
    it.

    I started looking in this string to see if it was mentioned (it was
    ;'), and I noticed a comment quite a few back now, that praised the fact
    that 'Hollywood' could still make movies like this.

    Uh, guys, it may have been a Holloywood funded movie, but it was shot
    in the UK - entirely. Oxford city, London, Herefordshire and the
    Shepparton studios. I believe (from the credits given) that almost the
    entire crew was UK based. So, maybe the $'s came from Hollywood (can't
    say) but the quality was quintessentially British!

    All comments are null-and-void if the earlier version is the one
    referred to ;') (haven't seen it yet)

    Re: the Chronicles of Narnia (live action series). Filmed by the BBC
    - as in *British* Broadcasting Corporation. *Another* exquisite piece
    of British production work. Although some of the animals are a little
    'kludgy' - it doesn't take much to suspend your criticism, and be
    enveloped by the 'magic' of Narnia {sigh}.

    True, some of the money came from PBS, and Australia's ABC (Australian
    Broadcasting Corporation), but the majority of the work was in the UK.

    There are (currently) four titles in the Chronicles. There are:

    The Lion, the witch and the wardrobe
    The Voyage of the Dawn Treader
    Prince Caspian
    The Silver Chair

    I doubt that "The Horse and His Boy" would be made into a tele-series,
    nor (I expect) "The Magician's Nephew". "The Final Battle" would be
    quite an experience, though. But, as each of these is not quite as
    'warm and fuzzy' as the above 4, I would guess that they wil not be
    filmed :(

    We (Kaz and I) also have the animated version of 'The Lion, the witch
    and the wardrobe' which is "ok". It seems they (the animators) could
    have done so much more, and yet... they didn't.

    Also, if you can get hold of 'The Roar of Love' (Second Chapter of Acts
    - "Live Oak" CD) - this too will broaden your experience of Narnia!

    There are some good Christian movies around, you just need to look for
    them.

    God Bless,

	      Harry

�    I doubt that "The Horse and His Boy" would be made into a tele-series,
�    nor (I expect) "The Magician's Nephew". "The Final Battle" would be
�    quite an experience, though. But, as each of these is not quite as
�    'warm and fuzzy' as the above 4, I would guess that they wil not be
�    filmed :(

The depth of the books, which I read many years ago, would suffer
significantly from the relatively mono-dimensional presentation of a film
studio.  The books give enough artistry for the imagination to fill in more
reality and quality of character than acting and camera can reach.  
"The Last Battle".... is more an eschatological statement than a story. 
I suspect that its moral - in fact, spiritual - weight is too key to the
whole tale for it to make a movie without considerable distortion. 

							Andrew 

	I cried my eyes out during Shadowlands, too.

	I think I'd like to rent it again soon.

    
    A favorite of mine as well Harry.   :')

    reminds me of the differences between men and women in watching movies
    as well as retreats.  I know it's generalizing but it seems the best
    women's retreats are based on the amount of crying that goes on :-) 
    With men it appears to be how good the food is ;-)
    
    Mike

 :-)

It sure is generalizing. :-) I like my movies to be light and easy to watch.
I get enough tears and sorrow out of real life.  Retreats - all I want is
some time to myself to read, pray, and enjoy God's creation design.

:-)

Leslie

    That's okay, my wife and I don't fit either mold either but we sure
    have friends who do ;-)

�    reminds me of the differences between men and women in watching movies
.....
�    With men it appears to be how good the food is ;-)

Hmmm.... seems a bit tasteless to me... ;-)

								Andrew

            re: <<< Note 381.163 by OUTSRC::HEISER "Maranatha!" >>>
    
Mike,

> I know it's generalizing but it seems the best women's retreats are based 
> on the amount of crying that goes on :-) 
> With men it appears to be how good the food is ;-)

You may well be right, Mike. If so, it is a very terrible indictment against
men's unwillingness to deal with the emotions and deep realities of their 
lives. Crying is an essential part of the Holy Spirit's work. It is centrally
involved in repentance, joy, sorrow, gratitude, mourning and remorse. To 
disavow or ignore those important emotions is to stunt one's emotional and
spiritual growth, all in the name of "machismo". I man who won't cry is a wimp.

Just my $0.02,

Brian_who_saw_Schindler's_List_for_the_first_time_last_night_and_cried_much

    Brian, I think you took it too seriously.  With the revival among men
    in this land (see Promise Keepers), I don't think it's a problem.
    
    Mike

    I hope nobody is planning on taking their children to see Casper or
    Pocohauntas.  One needs to look no further than the *secular* reviews in
    the June 9 and June 16 issues of USA Today.  The occultic influences 
    are obvious: ghosts are demons impersonating the dead; Pocohauntas talks 
    to a tree that is her spirit guide.  These secular reviews blatantly
    state that Pocohauntas is *NOT* for kids but for adults because of its
    sexual overtones and sensuality of the lead character.
    
    Mike

 
Oh, Mike, its *just* a movie!




 Jim

    :-(  Equally... my kids told me when they saw the preview that they did
    *not* want to see it.  I asked why and their response was it looked
    really stupid.
    
    :-)
    
    Nancy

    I haven't seen either.  I watched Casper as a kid.  It didn't warp me
    or get me into anything bad.  But that was then.  I have no idea what
    they've done with it today.  I have no plans to see this.
    
    My nephews and nieces will see all of them I'm sure. I have little
    influence there.  But I do make sure I put my two cents in concerning
    Pocahontas.  I said that they changed her story drastically.  My sister
    came back and said that I was wrong...that the indians were extremely
    pleased with Disney's presentation.  I replied "No doubt, as she left
    their lifestyle and became a Christian."  She didn't have much to say
    after that.  ;'}  I will probably see Pocahontas to be able to talk
    more with my nephews and nieces about what it said and didn't say.
    
    Jill
          

    	The old-time Casper never rejoiced at the notion of getting
    	to sleep in the same bed as a teenage girl (nor never even
    	had the screenwritten opportunity to do so...)
    
    	My 11-year-old daughter doesn't want to see PC-hontus because
    	it looks too "fake".  When I pressed for an explanation (wasn't
    	the Little Mermaid or Aladdin fake?) she said it reminded her
    	of political fighting.  (I think she was trying to tell me it's
    	too PC.)

    
    Well, I saw Pocahontas as I said I would.  I've had other Disney
    movies that I've been concerned about at times from the previews,
    but had always enjoyed them.  But not this one.  First off, her
    is this act of heroism this 11 year old girl did for somewhat that
    was not one of her people.  They turned the whole thing into this
    infatuated relationship between this two goergeous looking 
    individuals.  She instantly because "she listened to her heart" 
    could understand and speak english.  {sigh}  They talk about the
    spirits of all things plants, rock, animals all having a name and
    that we need to know them and respect them kind of thing.  She 
    talks to this tree (who talks back to her & can move all it's limb
    and branches to trip people up and stuff) whom she calls Grandmother
    (I learned in class this week that Grandmother is a term that indians 
    use for the earth).  After merely a few days together of talking, 
    kissing, running through the woods, and hugging they are both ready to 
    stand up to their peoples and die for their "love".  He's wounded
    and goes back to England and she stays to help her people.  
    
    I don't think I'd be crazy with this movie no matter what it was
    named, but it bothers me that kids will watch this and hear her
    name later in life and think that this is her story.  Sadly, her
    story is largely unheard and even I have one read bits and pieces.
    Basically though she was enslaved by the English for most of her
    teens (about 5 years I believe) until she was able to earn her
    freedom, she became a Christian, married a Christian man, had a 
    son, wore English style clothers, travelled to England wear she
    was regarded as a princess, and died around the age of 22 of a
    disease (which names escapes me right now).  For what it's worth
    my non-Christian coworker saw it with her kids and didn't like it
    either.  
    
    BTW...the movie was only about an hour and 15 minutes long.  
    
    Jill

    
    For the record - I really enjoyed casper. It was  a good fun moive -
    true that some it could be taken the wrong way - ie ghosts etc but I
    enjoyed it anyway.

    Somehow I just can;t picture Capsar really wanting to climb into bed
    with a girl - {sigh}

 Hey, its the 90's Harry!  :-(




 I saw Apollo 13 Saturday.  A great movie, thought it could have done without
 a scene between Kevin Bacon (playing Jack Swigert) and a woman.  I don't
 quite understand why that had to be in there.  Anyway, an excellent movie
 from that point on.  It was good seeing a gut wrenching nail biting film
 about heroes who didn't become same by blowing up cities and killing 
 hundreds of bad guys.  I loved all the space stuff when I was a kid
 and this movie took me right back to that time.  Also, a cameo appearance
 by the real Jim Lovell right at the end of the movie.  The language was
 a bit heavy at times, but with all the other stuff that is in movies
 these days, it didn't bother me as much.




 Jim

� The language was a bit heavy at times, but with all the other stuff that is
� in movies these days, it didn't bother me as much. 
That's possibly the most concerning aspect.  It changes our sensitivity to 
sin, and our perceptions of what is 'normal'.  Sin is still sin, however 
often it is repeated; however many politicians or churchmen treat it as 
trivial, or move their public position on it.  God hasn't changed.  
Our function here is for Him to be our 'norm', rather than to take the 
shifting world as our norm.

I find that almost invariably, the made up stories of the world cannot
contain the God of the Bible.  Especially in films, which at most can
express no more than the agenda of the author (if he has one).

							Andrew

    Question re: Apollo 13 - was there a doco/telemovie about this a number
    (say 5 or more?) years ago?

    I distinctly remember this, and if not - then I have to chalk it to
    deja-vu, but that can't be...

    ... or the more probable hypothesis is that I'm just plain nutso. Ah,
    Occam's Razor - you have never failed me yet. NO Andrew, it is
    *not*used for trimming facial hair!!! (sheesh - you gotta think sick
    to keep infront of _him_) :') :') ;'D

    H

    I was about to say the same thing Andrew!  Its a sort of de-sensitizing
    or conditioning to sin...and its working.  Jim noticed the language, but
    to many people it was probably just normal or natural & they probably 
    didn't even notice it.

    I was speaking to someone at our congregation this past Saturday.  She
    was telling me about this YMCA family camp that she and her family have
    gone to for 23 years.  Each year they showed old movie classics at night,
    and it was great for families.  Then one year the camp received a "gift"
    of a bunch of contemporary films - Top Gun and that kind of stuff.  My
    friend felt the movies being shown were inappropriate for the Y to be
    showing and after the movie she spoke to the camp director, noting that
    what they were showing were not good movies for families, and pointing
    out that there had been a lot of young children in the audience.  The
    camp director reacted badly and basically told her "Welcome to the real 
    world lady, these kids have already seen these films at home.  If you're 
    offended, stay in your cabin and don't bother anybody else with your 
    prudishness."  I thought what she did then was really excellant, after they
    got home, she got herself appointed to the Board of Directors for the camp
    and now she gets to preview and vote on what films will be shown.   It is
    only by participating like this that we can have any kind of effect on
    the world.

    Leslie

 I'm amazed at the language that is used on TV and radio these days.  Of course
 "they" tell us if we don't like it turn it off, which is becoming more and
 more attractive.



 Jim

    Well,
    
    contrary toour (well, my) normal practice, I watched a movie on TV last
    night. (gasp, shock, horror!) We (Karen and I) sar up and watched (drum
    roll) "Joseph". Not, not the Andrew Lloyd-Weber "Joseph and The Amazing
    Technicolour DreamCoat", but a brand new (copyright 1995) Italian
    production, starring Paul Mecurio as Joseph. (Paul was the 'hero' in
    the Australian movie 'Strictly Ballroom'). The support cast included
    Ben Kingsley as Potiphar, and Martin Landau (remember Commander John
    Koenig of Space:1999 ?) as Jacob/Israel.
    
    So, there we sat, in the dark, except we had the light on, our eyes
    glued to the TV, except we had our Bible open in Genesis! ;') They
    followed the story pretty well. Of course they embellished the story,
    but it seemed to me with minimal digression from a strictly Hebrew
    background.
    
    Basically they started from Genesis 33:18, where Jacob and his family
    settle down in Shechem - except that they skipped over 34 and 35! Or
    rather, what they did, is interpolate 34 & 35 as a 'flash-back' when
    Joseph was being interviewed by Potiphar after Potiphar's wife screamed
    'rape'. It was Jospeh's explanationwhy rape was abhorrant to him.
    Nicely done, I thought.
    
    The story ended, some 3.5 hours later at ch 46:7 with Jacob seeing
    Joseph's sons for the first time, and calling them to his side.
    
    Yes, a tear jerker in places, yes a bit 'soppy' in places. But also,
    there were places where it was hard hitting and Biblical. There
    appeared to be no (or very, very little) watering down of the story.
    It even showed Joseph (before he was enslaved) as the stuck-up little
    prig he most likely was ;')
    
    All in all, I'd give it a 7.5 out of 10.
    
    I can't remember any foul language, although some of the concepts
    presented would probably be a challenge for the younger viewer. (e.g.
    the rape of Dinah, the near seduction of Joseph, etc.)

	Hmmm...  I saw part of something similar about Joseph on the
Catholic network (EWTN = Eternal Word Television Network, from Irondale,
Alabama) here in the US.  EWTN has two local UHF stations here; channels
38 and 16.  The narration was presented in English, but the actual dialog
between characters characters, though muted and brief, seemed to be in the
appropriate languages, i.e. Hebrew or Egyptian.  Joseph was portrayed as
adopting some of the customs of the Egyptians, such as eye makeup, etc.
I wonder if it was the same production, Harry?

							Bob

    Bob^3,
    
    the same production? Probably not. I doubt that many of the actors in
    this production could have handled Hebrew and Egyptian. Anyway, there
    was no problem with 'lip-sync'. My take is that the whole thing was
    done in English'.
    
    It was interesting, in that, Paul Mecurio is an Australian actor, and
    the actors in the Egyptian portion were all 'Murikan, so there was a
    slight difference in accent, which sort of 'helped' to set Joseph apart
    from them. Probably an 'accident', but an interesting twist anyway.
    
    Actually, now that I think of it, isn't Martin Landau a British actor?
    And I think the other 'Hebrews' were non-'Murikan actors too - perhaps
    it was _deliberate_?
    
    GBY,
    
    H

    I saw the same program!!! I *loved* it.  The boys and I were enthralled
    by it.  I thought I had mentioned to you... but maybe not.
    
    Anyway, I recommend it.  It came on TNT here.  As a TNT original movie. 
    Joseph is my personal favorite Biblical character.
    
    :-) Thumbs up! 

    We went to see "Mr. Holland's Opus" last Friday and enjoyed it
    greatly.  Very touching, especially the ending.  Be prepared to sit for
    a while, though, as it is about two and a half hours long.

    Ron