Conference yukon::christian_v7

375.0. "Looking again at the Foundation." by GYMAC::RDUSATKO () Mon Jan 17 1994 10:50

    I had probably the most interesting dream in my life a few days ago and
    as of now I wanted to share something which I know is VERY controversal
    and yet VERY important.
    
    The end of the dream in a nutshell:
    
    I was in an ancient church and it had like a heavy marble casket,
    marking something of importance. A crane was lowered and began lifting
    it up and then removed it(it was so heavy that nobody or group of us
    could have removed it). There were still other layers of marble
    removed. Finally, a scroll was freed. I took it in my hands and began
    opening it (at first, it was rolled). It was thick leather, ancient
    looking redish-brown, still perfectly intact and wasn't even fragmented
    or cracked! The top were drawings (how things were done?) and
    at the bottom was writing (the writing was black, etched into the
    leather). I couldn't really read it myself, but as I looked at it I
    was there where those people were who  wrote it. I saw a glimpse of the 
    founders, those who were pillars of the church before the 'church
    instute(Catholic Church)' existed. They were also aware of the
    importance of that which had been revealed to them. My attention was
    immediately thrown back to where I was, in the ancient church. From where
    the scroll had been there had arisen see-through angels, physically
    manifest in the highest form of worship. The whole atmosphere in the
    church changed. It was like wind blowing, undescribable. We also
    entered in the highest form of adoration, singing 'holy, holy'. Jesus
    himself appeared, visible to everyone, about 15 feet tall dressed in
    robes, but see-through. He, accompanied with angels went before us,
    looking at us with great joy and going on. Then I awoke with tingling
    throughout my body that came in waves, especially strong as I
    remembered the angels worshipping and Jesus.
    
    Now I am not catholic, was not raised catholic, and since I met Jesus I
    have never had anything to do with the catholic church(esteeming it as
    dead, archaic).  Yet as I ponder the meaning of the dream, a surge of
    excitement wells up in me as to the clearness of the revelation of the
    truth which they 'brought into it', all to be 'marble framed' and built
    into the foundation of the organization. Before the 'Roman Christian
    Government' there was the Church of Jesus Christ, suffering at times up
    to 5000 people a day being martyrd for their faith. Each city location
    of believers was the 'church'. But as far as I understand, most of the
    'church' was absorbed into building this great 'Roman christian
    Government', and changed their identity over the years to come. This
    great organization was later to be understood (and understood herself)
    as being the 'church'. 
    As probably the most of us know, the 'Roman Christian Government' is
    where the gospels and the writings of Paul, etc. were stored over the
    ages along with many other writings, some out of the canon and
    questionable. There are also many very early writings about all of the
    basic doctrines of the church. When Luther and the others split from
    this dead organization, there were some basic truths revived, all of
    which he derived from his time as a Monch, understanding latin and
    greek, and therefore understanding the writings. So Luther took
    'outside' of the church that which we now recognize as the bible and
    translated it into German, just as others translated it in other
    languages. But that which Luther and the others took, the revelation
    which they had, was only partial in comparison to the fullness which
    was there originally gathered, especially considering that a great
    portion of the early church, which still had its foundation built from
    Jesus and the apostles, went into this 'Roman christian government'.
    In the dream, the glory of God, of the revelation of the early church,
    had been made into a glorious 'monument' and had again to be
    'revealed'. This was the key for the angels and Jesus and the glory
    which followed. Could it be that Jesus wishes that his church again
    have the same foundation? That not only the scriptures be in his
    church, but also the doctrinal understandings of the scriptures as at
    that time? (which totally agree with the scriptures!) 
    The catholic church has as one of the most basic and secure doctrines
    that through baptism in water a person receives forgiveness of sins(as
    throughout the new Testament, as Acts 2:38, Acts 22:16 and Col.2:12-13
    to mention a few of them), church membership(Acts 2:38, Acts 10:47,
    1.Cor.12:13, Gal. 3:27,28, Eph. 4:1-2 to mention a few of them).
    However, this doctrine no longer contains the 'working of God' because
    it is used with the assumption that the 'Roman Christian Institute(no
    longer a goverment today)' it the church of Jesus christ. Instead, only
    the weak, weathered remains of the true doctrine exist, where babies
    are sprinkled.
    The catholic church has another basic and secure doctrine on communion,
    that it IS the Body of Jesus Christ, and does not only represent it, as
    also say the scriptures(Matt.26:26, 1.Cor.10:16,1.Cor.11:24 to mention
    a few of them). They also have the secure doctrine that only those who
    have been baptized, (and therefore belong to the catholic church) are
    allowed to take communion. (although today they are no longer so strict
    in upholding this doctrine). This doctrine has also withered through
    the ages and is now practiced as only giving a small silver-dollar wafer
    during mass. 
    Another doctrine is concerning their structure. A cardinal is an
    'apostle'. The true doctrine of the bible states that there were and
    are and always will be apostles in the church of Jesus Christ. But the
    'catholic apostles' have become organization leaders, building up the
    'catholic institute'. The understanding of the church of Jesus Christ
    has been changed into this institute. So the bishops(elders) are the
    leaders of the city local churches (also as in the bible!), but instead
    they are leaders over the individual 'gatherings' or 'catholic
    churches' in a town.
    I don't think that doctrine belongs in the foundation of any 'christian 
    organization'. This may have been one of the main mistakes christians
    have made in the last 1800 years. And the organizations are not to be
    confused for the church of Jesus Christ, although members of his church
    are in many of the christian institutions and organizations.
    Could it be that, just as before the 'Roman christian Government' God
    wishes again to establish his church outside of the organization? Will
    these 'ancient withered doctrines' become again full of God's power and
    presence, and, as written in Eph.4:4-6, Hebr.6:1-2, and other
    scriptures, as the foundation of the church of Jesus Christ?
    
    Rodger Dusatko
    institute organization
    communion, 
    
    
    shortly thereafter I cannot but help to think that the
    catholic church collected the 'fullness' of the truth into its
    foundation.
    Then this scroll
    had been taken and placed in the foundation of this later-arising great
    religious institute, which is today known as the 'Catholic Church'
    scroll being taken and placed in th

    Sorry about all of the text which follows 'Rodger Dusatko', I didn't
    know it was there. Refer to note 822.0 in LGP30::CHRISTIAN-PERSPECTIVE
    for a vision related to the church of Jesus Christ forming outside of
    the organization.
    My personal conviction is that we have yet to see the glorious church
    of Jesus Christ for ages. Instead we see individuals who receive
    revelation and, because the church is not yet again visible, they end
    up building an organization covering members of the church of Jesus
    Christ. I believe also, that right now I myself will be involved with
    others (who I don't yet know) and we will see the fulfillment of this
    dream, where the ancient foundation becomes the foundation of the
    church of Jesus Christ, and because of its glory and beauty(again see
    note 822) it will begin pulling into it people from all types of
    organizations(like a magnet) until the day where God will speak to his
    people in the organization, 'Come out of her, my people'. Jesus will be
    coming back for a glorious church who has made herself ready, and not
    for christian organizations, no matter how good their doctrine might
    be.
    
    
    Rodger Dusatko

>So Luther took 'outside' of the church that which we now recognize as the
>bible and translated it into German, just as others translated it in other
>languages.

Luther translated the 66 books that Protestants recognize as 'the Bible' plus
the following books (names given in German from my Martin Luther translation
for your benefit since you are in Germany):

Luther's names for these books:		King James names for these books:

Das Buch Judith				Judith
Die Weisheit Salomonis			The Wisdom of Solomon
Das Buch Tobi�				Tobit
Das Buch Jesus Sirach			Ecclesiasticus
Das Buch Baruch				Baruch
Das 1. Buch der Makkab�er		1 Maccabees
Das 2. Buch der Makkab�er		2 Maccabees
St�cke in Esther			The Rest of Esther
Historie von der Susanna und Daniel	History of Susanna
Vom Bel zu Babel			Bel ...			} one book
Vom Drachen zu Babel			... and the Dragon      } in KJV
Das Gebet Asarias			} Song of the Three Holy Children
Der Gesang Der drei M�nner im Feuer     } (one book in the KJV)
Das Gebet Manasses			The Prayer of Manasses

King James bibles also include two books called 1 and 2 Esdras (not to be
confused with Ezra and Nehemiah, which used to be called 1 and 2 Esdras;
1 and 2 Esdras were called 3 and 4 Esdras in the Latin Vulgate and in
English translations which preceeded the KJV, such as the Coverdale bible).

Modern Catholic bibles exclude 1 and 2 Esdras and the Prayer of Manasses
(which Anglicans still use).  The Rest of Esther is presented integrated
with Esther; Susanna, Bel and the Dragon, and the Song of the Three Holy
Children are integrated with Daniel.

/john