Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Yoga has its roots in eastern religions, but to say Yoga is a means of
    religious instruction, well, that might be a stretch. You know,
    "everything is permissible, not all things are beneficial."
    
    Yoga is used to help the "student" focus. Nothing more, nothing less.
    At least, that is how it was first introduced,...as I was taught...
    but, then it can be employed to "instruct" one in a number of
    activities - religion being *one*.
    

A co-worker noticed my music stash and began a conversation.  He asked if
I had any "New Age" music.  Mind you, I filtered this request through
several different interpreters.  Putting the label "New Age" on the music
drew red flags from the New Age philosophies that I reject.  But in another
filter, this person was asking about a type of music that is modern,
often synthesized, often without vocals - sometimes with vocals.

I told him that I was given one recording, but if I thought of it, I might
have a couple of other tapes that might fit into the style of easy
listening.  He offered to loan me a CD to listen to.  I said, sure.

I believe in judging something on its own merit.  Something is either
used or abused.  One may stand aghast that I subjected my brain to 
these tones because of the relation that the label has to other
counter-Christian philosophies.

I think Phil is correct in that on the surface you have one thing.
Beneath the surface you may have another.  One must be careful about
how they use and how they are used, and this goes beyond music styles.

Mark

    (Yes, I listen to so-called New Age music most of the time, apart from
    things like Michael Card, and was most shocked to find that it was
    labelled New Age.  Didn't stop me.  A brick is a brick.  Instrumental
    music in itself cannot be evil to listen to.
    
    James)

    WHAT!  Michael Card listed as New AGE?????????????????
    
    No way... No way is Michael Card New Age... No way!  His music and
    words are some of the most Biblically sound I've heard in contemporary
    music.  He is listed under Contemporary Christian Music here in
    California in the bookstores.
    
    

    Nancy! Your blood pressure! Calm down woman. Do some Yoga or something.
       8^)  tee hheee.
    
    

    Nancy,
    
    I don't think James is suggesting that Michael Card is New Age.  I
    think James is saying he listens almost exclusively to New Age music,
    with Michael Card as an exception.
    
    Mark

    It is not a large part of my listening; in fact, it is a minor category
    of music that I listen, too.  And yes, I think James was not saying
    that Michael Card was New Age in any way, shape, or form.
    
    Back to yoga, a brick is a brick.  Some bricks are made without straw.
    
    MM

    Oooops guess the syntax didn't work for me. :-)  Sorry James... surely
    you weren't saying that Michael Card is labeled New Age were you?
    
    Nancy

    Nancy was wrong, Mark(l) was right, Mark(m) was right, and then bingo,
    Nancy finally reparses my sentence...  ;-)
    
    There's one or two of Michael Card's (or Michael W Smith's)
    instrumental pieces which would fit cleanly into the so-called New Age
    category if it were not for his other pieces on the same CDs.  The
    category definition pushed by the suppliers is not well defined, is
    very wide, and does not appear to have anything to do with the New Age
    as we understand it in Christian circles...
    
    James

    Whale... thanks for the clarity. :-) :-)
    
    I dunno about MWSmith's, but John Michael Talbot has a few that would
    fit nicely in that category.. and I listen to them during
    meditation/quiet time or during Bible study.
    
    Nancy

    .10
    
    Annent.. the name of the CD that JMTalbot composed that I listen to is 
    Q U I E T... and I just chuckled at what I wrote after I wrote it...
    sheesh my marbles are still there.. I promise.
    
    

    At risk of being repetitive, not that there is some discussion on the 
    subject of yoga and martial arts in Note 175. My original question in 
    175.0 produced some strongly divergent views as to what is or is not right
    for a Bible-believing Christian, q.v.
    
    My pastor comes out strongly against a Christian having any involvement
    in yoga and suchlike, mainly on the basis that it is derived from
    meditation techniques in oriental religion, therefore you can't
    practise yoga actions without exposing yourself to the spiritual
    content.  I think it's partly a matter of how you see spiritual
    things and spiritual warfare: if you believe spritual warefare is real
    and important, then you'll avoid things with a non-christian origin. 
    If you don't, then you'll be more relaxed about it.  Bible proof is 
    difficult, but I liken it to God's covenant rule for the children of 
    Israel not to intermarry with other nations or do the things that other 
    nations do.
    
    Here is Sophia Antipolis there are yoga lesons in the gym every Monday
    lunchtime, coincidentally at the same time as our weekly prayer
    meeting.  We haven't tried to get it stopped, but we usually devote
    prayer to that activity and to the people who participate in it.  My
    own view is that if I participated in yoga or the martial arts I would 
    be collaborating with the enemy, putting up a barrier between myself and 
    God; so I don't take part.
    
    On all subjects where we object to things that go in the company, it's
    often true that we achieve more through prayer than by shouting out
    objections.  The power of prayer is unstoppable!  Our concern in our
    workplace is for is for saving souls and setting an example, not causing 
    a storm.  
    
    In Jesus' Name,		Richard.

    
    John Michael Talbot's instrumental tapes are usually the same songs he
    sings on other tapes. Quiet, and Empty Canvas are two I have.
    
    Also, most of John Michael Talbot's songs are from the Scripture, especially
    the book of Psalms. Being that he was a RC priest, many of his songs
    come from the "Liturgy of the Hours," which the religious of the Catholic
    Church pray every morning and evening. They are also know as Vespers.

    Since my wife and I have started our formation in the Secular Order of
    The Carmelites, we've been praying these vespers. John Michael's tapes
    now have a whole new impact on us.

    Peace
     Jim

>    come from the "Liturgy of the Hours," which the religious of the Catholic
>    Church pray every morning and evening. They are also know as Vespers.

Vespers is just one of the canonical hours, 6:00pm

The others are compline at 9:00pm, matins at midnight, lauds at 3:00am,
prime at 6:00am, terce at 9:00am, sext at noon, and nones at 3:00pm.

Some religious communities continue to observe all eight hours; others
combine them in various ways.  For example, St. Benedict's Abbey in
Still River, Harvard, observes Lauds and Prime together at 6:00am,
sext at noon, vespers at 6:00pm, and compline at 9:00pm.

/john

I'm with Richard here.  I was quite concerned personally when one of my
sons took up karati, and retrospectively I think the resultant prayer
impetus had powerful effect generally for him.  The karati died out after a
few years when it conflicted with the Christian Fellowship.  It *could* 
have gone in a very different direction, though.  While I did mention my 
view of this to him, I had to be careful not to apply any pressure, as this 
would have been likely to produce the opposite effect from the desired, by 
reaction.  As it was I was able to show an almost casual (I hope) interest.

This sort of thing is progressive - the early stages seem innocent enough.
However the mental priorities and allegiences imposed become an increasing
part of the individual.  This tends towards conditioning them to further
stages, where commitment supersedes and conflicts with our commitment to
the LORD - mentally, as well as in the time-conflict area. 

You could say that any secular interest is likely to come in conflict with 
Christian commitment if it's allowed to encroach, and to some extent, that is 
so, but the particular significance of martial arts, and meditation 
techniques is the attention given to the mind.  The subject is led towards 
a mental manipulation which gives authority to other forces than the LORD.

							Andrew

    re: martial arts
    
    Of course this is all generally speaking and doesn't apply when you're
    master is also a Christian.
    
    Mike ;-)

�               <<< Note 366.16 by FRETZ::HEISER "it ain't me" >>>

Hmmm.  didn't we go round this loop last time we hit this discussion ... ?

							;-)
									&

    Re: Note 366.14 by COVERT::COVERT
    
>The others are compline at 9:00pm, matins at midnight, lauds at 3:00am,
>prime at 6:00am, terce at 9:00am, sext at noon, and nones at 3:00pm.
    
    Hey, I remember compline!  I've sung a setting for it.  The church
    choir was never too interested in lauds and prime settings; perhaps
    they didn't exist though...
    
    James

    RE;14
    Rightly stated John.

    Thanks
    Jim

    Some martial arts are okay.  Most have been "Americanized" for the most
    part, doing away with the more spiritual aspects of the art.  What
    remains (in my experience with Americanized Taekwondo) is physical and
    mental conditioning for a sport.  The same disciplines I used in speed
    skating, track, and baseball are used in taekwondo.  
    
    One of the Master belts who teaches is a Christian, another teacher who
    is 4th Dan is a Christian, too.  There seems to be little conflict, if
    any, with them, and so far none for me (I've been watching carefully
    for the past year and a half, and there has been NO type of spiritual
    conditioning at all). 
    
    This is speaking of my school, though, and certainly may not be
    representative of all Taekwondo schools.  Let's be careful not to use a
    broad brush when dealing with martial arts and spirituality.  
    
    Personally, I pray and trust in God to keep me alert to any subtleties
    that may interfere in my relationship with Him.  To be honest, after a
    good training class, I feel closer to God...of course, the same holds
    true with a good weight training session.  8^)
    
    -steve

{From: The Boston Globe, November 16, 1992, by Julie Hatfield}

Yoga Saved Cuban's Life
-----------------------

Most people who practice flexibility, strength and suppleness probably
won't ever need to use it the way Dr. Yamil Kouri did when he was a
political prisoner in Cuba for 15 years. 

But Kouri, 54, of Harvard University's Institute for International
Development, knows intimately both yoga and pain, so much of the latter
that it has taken him more than a decade to begin to talk about what
happened to him when he was imprisoned in his native country for conspiring
against the Castro regime. 

For the first time since he was released 13 years ago, Kouri, a research
coordinator for Latin America and the Caribbean at the Institute, will
speak to the public about his experience, including how the yoga he
practiced helped him and his fellow prisoners survive.  His talk Wednesday
at Harvard's JFK School of Government is titled "Yoga in difficult Times." 
The label is a gross understatement of the experiences that led him on a
new path of study in his field. 

Now, in addition to traveling regularly to Haiti, Argentina, Honduras,
Panama and other Latin American countries to develop their health programs,
Kouri is studying 'siddis', or powers, that come from yoga, and is also
exploring the field of hypnosis. 

Born in Cuba, Kouri was condemned to death in 1965 for conspiring to topple
the Castro regime.  Thanks to efforts of his wife, who requested that the
Roman Catholic Church and pope become involved, and the Mexican embassy,
the only embassy in Cuba at that time that granted political asylum, his
sentence was changed to life imprisonment.  After six years in protection
at the Mexican embassy, Kouri made a deal with Cuban authorities that
allowed his mother-in-law to leave the country if he would surrender
himself to solitary confinement.  He was thrown into a prison cell 2 feet
wide by 2 feet long, with a hole in the floor and no windows. 

"The cell was so devoid of light that the cockroaches were white; they had
lost their pigment," he said.  Liquids and a spoonful of white spaghetti
were passed to him daily; otherwise the only human sounds he could hear
were those of prisoners committing suicide nearby.  He lost almost 90
pounds and his beard grew long.  For 2� years, Kouri also was without books
and clothes. 

Kouri couldn't lie down, and it came to him to adopt the lotus position of
yoga when he was tired.  He has learned these movements from an Indian
roommate at Harvard, where he received his undergraduate degree. 

"They all came back to me, but this time, they represented more than just
exercise," he said.  "I was able to breathe deeply and detach myself, and
in a way, visit my family, by means of the yoga."  (When he entered prison,
he left behind his wife and four children, the youngest of whom was just a
few months old.) 

In yoga there is a way a person can temporarily leave the world around him
by looking inward, and while the eyes are still open, the mind is
elsewhere, usually in deep concentration or meditation.  Open eyes that are
looking at the so-called "third eye" in the center of the forehead are
devoid of pain and suffering, no matter how much the person who is looking
inward has endured.  Thereafter, Kouri, who was brought up a Roman
Catholic, said he was able to retain his mental health by "going inside." 

"I did not suffer, and I could have stayed there my whole life," he said. 

After his solitary confinement he was taken to a concentration came called
Taco Taco in Cuba and told that he would be acting as the only physician
for 10,000 prisoners, many of whom were sick and malnourished. 

"There were no medical instruments, so the prisoners made some, and we
sterilized them in boiling water," Kouri said.  "There was no aspirin even,
and no anesthesia, and I was doing open-heart surgery on patients who had
been stabbed, and abdominal surgery in some cases, with the patient awake. 

One day, not being able to help a patient in great pain, I induced a
hypnotic state in him.  It alleviated his pain, and I began to use hypnosis
on other patients.  It was a power that came to me.  I found I could do it
instantly, almost as soon as a patient walked in to see me. I had not had
the capability to hypnotize before I went into prison, and I felt myself
losing it as I finally headed toward Miami much later.  I could not do it
now. 

One of the reasons for Kouri's talk this week is that he has begun to miss
the powers he had while in prison.  "It felt like I came into contact with
my soul," he said, explaining that through yoga he had lost all fear for
his physical body. 

The prison experience also served as a major influence in transforming his
career toward public service; in addition to his medical degree, Kouri
subsequently earned both a master's and a PhD degree in public health from
Harvard. 

There were other powers that came to Kouri in prison.  One time, he began
to hypnotize a man who had been food-poisoned.  "After a while, I saw some
green liquid coming out of his mouth, and I realized that it was bile, from
his intestine.  I could hardly believe it.  On the outside, the only way to
get bile out of a person's intestine is to insert a needle directly into
it.  It doesn't come out of the patient's mouth, ever.  I couldn't do today
what I did for this man; I wouldn't have the power." 

Prisoners were given rats to eat, but, Kouri said, "I transformed terrible
food to the best, by hypnosis." 

Kouri also became a reluctant and untrained oral surgeon, extracting molars
while his patients were under his hypnosis. 

Thanks to the efforts of a priest at his son's school in Puerto Rico in
1979, and to the Carter administration's efforts in the Mariel boatlift of
prisoners from Cuba to Miami in 1980, Kouri was released in exchange for a
Cuban officer who had been freed in Angola, and sent to Florida with
125,000 exiles from his country.  "I owe my freedom to Jimmy Carter," Kouri
said, adding that for nearly a year after he left, each night he still felt
he was in prison. 

"My soul was attached to everything that happened there, and I couldn't let
go," he said.  Only now has he begun to talk about the experience in
detail.  One time was in a yoga class at Harvard last spring, when the
teacher asked him to describe what yoga had done for him.  "I became a
doctor when I was in prison. I became a stronger person." 

The question is, *what* is being given control.  The physical benefit is
not the end product.  The spiritual is.  It is essential in such cases of
mental exercise to know that control is in the hands of the Almighty
Creator God, Who alone cares for our total wellbeing.  Kouri has benefitted
in the temporal, but if the LORD were in the cell with him, he would
benefit in the eternal.  Hardly any of us know the LORD well enough to
anticipate that sort of intervention, but it has occurred.  And He answers
the need, not the whims. 

							Andrew 

    another question for me is where is the power coming from.
    From the article, it sounds like from him, and not from HIM.
    That kinda gives me the queasys about it.

    I believe that our bodies have been created wonderfully and
    miraculously.  I also believe that its energy and power all dependent
    upon the Spirit of God or spirit of evil has not yet been tapped into
    by the average individual.
    
    It is indeed for Christians to discern from where the power is coming,
    but not dismiss that the power itself is not wrong.  IMHO
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

    Dear Readers;
    
    I am a new noter and do not presume to know you.  Rather than say this 
    is wrong or that is wrong let me just include my own testimony 
    regarding martial arts and let you take from it what you will.
    
    I first received Christ as my savior in 1965, at the age of eight years 
    old.  Although I had very little Bible teaching, my love for Him and 
    commitment to Him was genuine and deep.  My active involvement in 
    martial arts began in 1969, before any Americanized styles came out.  I 
    began studying through the YMCA an Okinawan/Japanese style called 
    Hayashi Ha Shito Ryu Kai.  The only proponent that any martial artist 
    in this country might be familiar with is Fumio Demura.  My instructor 
    was an American, educated in Japan, the son of a missionary.  After two 
    years, at 14, I received my first degree black belt.  One of the higher 
    belts told me then, "now you can begin to study karate."  What he meant 
    was that in order to progress to a higher proficiency one must cross 
    over the line from the strictly physical aspect of martial arts into 
    the spiritual side.  I studied the history of martial arts, tracing 
    them all back to India several thousand years ago.  I studied the 
    philosophical/religious side.  The martial arts were created for two 
    reasons.  First, was to put the practitioner in touch with the 
    spiritual world and the second to kill, not defensively but 
    offensively.  A practitioner in Japan is called a bushido, warrior.  As 
    I got sucked deeper into the mire I tried desperately to reconcile the 
    oriental philosophies with Christianity.  By not calling them religions 
    I forestalled the argument that they were in contradiction with Christ.  
    At 16, I had my own dojo.  In my one year of college I studied Wing 
    Chun.  In 1976, I joined the Air Force and volunteered for Asian 
    assignment.  I spent a year and a half in Okinawa and a year in Korea.  
    While in Okinawa, I studied Shorin Ryu, a very similar style to Shito 
    Ryu.  After transferring to Korea, I began studying Tang Soo Do, the 
    second most popular style in Korea and similar to Tae Kwon Do which is 
    so popular today.  I was awarded a first degree black belt in two 
    months and had a third degree black belt within six months.  While in 
    Korea I also studied Hapkido, a style made popular in the US by Bong 
    Soo Han in the Billy Jack movies.  However, it was also in Korea that 
    God began dealing with my heart.  I say all this not to brag but 
    perhaps to my shame.  I want to let you know that I am not speaking 
    from an experiential vacuum.  I have been there.
    
    As I said earlier, there comes a point in the study of martial arts 
    where physical ability becomes less important than spiritual acuity.  
    As any martial artist knows, there is what is called the ki or chi.  Ki 
    or chi is supposedly the force that abides within each one of us which 
    is in constant communion with the spirit world.  It gives us abilities 
    beyond the natural.  This force is released when the combatant lets out 
    a kiai (yell) when punching or kicking.  It is well documented that 
    many martial arts masters are able to perform feats beyond human 
    ability.  In a film that I saw, where a master was breaking concrete 
    tiles, it was clear that the tiles were breaking prior to impact.  In 
    other word this force was emanating from his body.  It is said that 
    certain sects of these martial artists were able to simply stretch 
    forth their hand and the ki would project from them and destroy an 
    object across the room.  This force is nothing more than a hellish 
    anointing.  Just as God gives His anointing to preach the Word with 
    boldness, to heal, and to minister effectively, there is a satanic 
    counterfeit.  I, myself, would break stones, stacks of concrete tiles, 
    and rows of bottles with my various parts of my body.
    
    On July 22nd, 1979, I returned to the God of my youth and consecrated 
    my life to Him afresh but I did not renounce martial arts.  Before the 
    end of 1979, God spoke to me very clearly (though not audibly) and 
    said, "You can have my anointing or the devil's operating in you life 
    but you can not move back and forth.  You must choose."  You can not 
    have bitter and sweet water flowing from the same fountain.  I chose 
    God's anointing, destroyed all my trophies and anything that linked me 
    to the martial arts and have never practiced it since.
    
    God says that we are to glorify Him in ALL things.  If those who 
    practice martial arts can honestly say that they can glorify God when 
    they:
       -    Bow to a man and call him sensei or sabum, which means master,
       -    Practice an art which, by it's design, places other gods on a 
       	    par with the One True God,
       -    Practice an art which, by it's nature, teaches the participant
       	    how to kill,
       -    Invoke the power of one who is opposed to our Lord,
    then I have no quarrel with them.
    
    I can not.
    
    In Christ's Love,
    
    Kent
    

Thank you very much Kent for making things clearer to me.

Mark

    Kent,
    
    Thank you very much for that testimony... it brought tears to my eyes. 
    Kent would you mind if I let my Pastor read your testimony?
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    I don't mind at all.  If it can be a help, you are free to show it to
    whoever you like.
    
    Kent
    

 >      -    Bow to a man and call him sensei or sabum, which means master,
    
    doesn't it also mean teacher?  I always thought it was done out of
    respect, especially since it's a greeting custom in Asian countries.
    
>       -    Practice an art which, by it's design, places other gods on a 
>       	    par with the One True God,
    
    This may be true at the level you were at, but I haven't seen it yet. 
    And I've made it known that my family's instructor is a self-confessed
    born-again believer in Christ.  nothing about meditation around Asian
    gods are ever discussed.
    
>       -    Practice an art which, by it's nature, teaches the participant
>       	    how to kill,
    
    My personal experience is that self-defense is always stressed.
    
>       -    Invoke the power of one who is opposed to our Lord,
    
    Again, maybe this is true for those in some art forms that are X degree
    black belts.  I don't see this.
    
    Mike

    Mike,
    
    You have to judge for yourself in this matter "If your heart does not
    condemn you...".  I tried to make it clear that there is a very
    definite line which I crossed.  Yes, sensei is sometimes translated 
    teacher but in the oriental mindset this type of teacher is one who 
    exercises complete control over the student, i.e. lord.  I also spoke
    from the historical context of the art which is pagan and polytheistic. 
    I have never studied Americanized karate nor do I intend to.  My only
    question is, "How close to the edge do you want to play?"  My original
    statement was to take from it what you will.
    
    In His Love,
    
    Kent
    

    Kent,
    
    I don't know if it matters, but I'm only familiar with Tae Kwon Do.  My 
    son just received his green belt.  Neither of us have witnessed the
    concerns (which I had myself ahead of time) that you speak of.
    
    Mike

    Kent,
       I agree with you, to the extent that you were involved. There are
    those however that do not progress as far. They will not, and indeed,
    can not understand the full meaning of your insight. Kent, you are
    stronger than any of your "teachers" - because you found the true
    strength of life, Christ. ...I almost lost my chance, ..but for the
    Grace of God. 
    
     -  "X" Special Operations -
        - PDM
    
    ps. I did not entirely give up all that I was taught,...my wife likes
        to "know" I can defend her in the event we travel to any inner
        city, ;^)

    Kent, 
         my experience in Kenpo, Gjo Ryu and Tai Chi are the same as
    Mike's. Chi is not spirit, but bio-electrical energy which every
    person has. In Tai Chi one control's that energy or moves to parts of
    the body that need it. Either way, a Christian understands that whatever 
    energy the body has, it is God given. Also, we are both physical and 
    spiritual beings. Holiness is derived from wholeness. When we are one
    with our spiritual and physical selves, we become fully human, fully alive,
    whole human beings, just as God the Father designed us.

    I think you've misinterpreted much of the spiritual aspects of the MA
    you have studied, or you've studied under instructors who lead people
    down the wrong road. 
    
    BTW, my MA instructor in Kenpo and Jui Jitsu is also a born again
    Christian.

    Jim

    Thank you for your responses, both encouraging and contrasting.
    
    I do not want to get into a "your experience vs. my experience" debate 
    as I believe it would be counterproductive and the kind of strife that 
    Paul warns us to avoid.  Martial arts training is not unlike the 
    Masons, where the Blue Lodge initiate is unaware or mislead about the 
    beliefs and history of the organization.
    
    Jim,
    
    There is one thing that I can discuss from your note and that is the 
    area of holiness as you have defined it.  My understanding of holiness 
    has always been different.  The Hebrew word Qodesh means a person, 
    place or thing that has been consecrated or sanctified.  It is derived 
    from the Hebrew word Qadash which means to keep clean.  The ritual 
    cleansing of the priests and temple articles was symbolic of the 
    believers cleansed life before God and the need to keep it pure.  There 
    are many Greek words which are translated holiness in the AV 
    (translated sanctification in the RV), the most prominent, if my memory 
    is correct, as regarding the believer is Hagiasmos.  This word has two 
    intentions.  First, separation unto God and second, the conduct of the 
    believer so separated (Read 1 Thessalonians 4:3-7).  The A/G doctrinal 
    position, if anyone's interested is "separation from sin, separation 
    unto God as an instantaneous and progressive work".
    
    Kent
    

    -1
    
    Taught on Separation yesterday to my Sunday School Class! :-)
    
    It was excellent, I used Romans 12:1-2 and 2 Cor 6:17 as my text
    verses.  My visual aid was an egg. :-)
    
    Nancy

�    It was excellent, I used Romans 12:1-2 and 2 Cor 6:17 as my text
�    verses.  My visual aid was an egg. :-)
    
Was the link Luke 11:12 or Job 6:6?
;-)
						&

    Good illustration!
    
    Kent
    

    For the humor of the previous note, here are the scripture verses from
    Mr. Yuille, who is in rare form today!
    
    Luke 11:12  Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion?
    
    Job 6:6  Can that which is unsavoury be eaten without salt? or is there
    any taste in the white of an egg?
    
    Actually I used the egg to represent the hard shell core of our hearts
    when rejecting God.  Then demonstrate how when God cracks the shell of
    our hearts, he can now penetrate our lives and separate our lives from
    the old to the new [used an egg separator to take the yolk from the
    egg white].  Then I cracked a second egg and some of the white stayed
    connected to the yolk, it required assistance to be separated.  This is
    what happens to many who are saved... they still cling to part of the
    world, while accepting the new life.  It may be habitual or addictive sin
    that is of the world hanging on, drugs, smoking, alcohol, etc.  And as
    I tapped on the glass to help the white separate.. I told the kids to
    never be ashamed to ask for help.  
    
    Nancy
    

    Made spelling corrections on .38 and reposted. :-)

�    For the humor of the previous note, here are the scripture verses from
�    Mr. Yuille, who is in rare form today!

							[ who he ...? ]
like my eggs well cooked, please.  No raw yolks, even in humor (IS tis the 
humor note?)

    I was thinking about this over the weekend.  Anyone ever play a
    physical sport like football (American), ice hockey, or even rugby?  To
    me, Tae Kwon Do is just a physical sport.  Kent mentioned something
    about the "ki-yup" being a call to the demon world to exert more force. 
    When I played football and hockey in high school, we also had similar
    grunts/yells/growls/etc. to help us be more physical and aggressive. 
    In my eyes, I view TKD the same way.  It's an aggressive sport and
    anything that helps you be more aggressive will make you more
    successful in that sport.
    
    Mike (who never killed a QB ;-))

    -1
    
    Mike it's a weak comparison fro Ki-yup to abominal grunts.  Sorry but I
    don't see it.  But I still respect you.
    
    Nancy

I think the comparison with the Masons is a good one.

At the level which 99% of masons become involved, it's just another
benevolence society, like the Rotary club or Lion's club.  If you ask "What's
wrong with this?," considering only on the aspects that are apparent at that
level, the answer can only be "nothing," because nothing IS wrong at that
level.

But the organization itself, at its highest levels, is dedicated to Satan. 
So the question becomes: Should we as christians be involved in an
organization or activity whose culmination does not glorify Christ, even if
there is nothing wrong with the activities at our current level of
involvement?

Martial arts appear to be quite similar.  I've heard many people, both in
this file and elsewhere, declare that involvement at the deeper levels calls
upon spiritual powers other than the Holy Spirit and is incompatible with a
committed relationship with Jesus Christ.  I've also heard many people who
are involved at low and intermediate levels maintain that they found nothing
that was incompatible.  Both of those may in fact be true, but a telling fact
for me is that I've never heard anyone who has become deeply involved, on the
deepest levels, say that their involvement at that level was compatible with
a relationship with Christ.  Every person that I've heard of who was involved
on the deeper levels says that the two cannot be mixed.

So should we be involved in the lower "compatible" levels if the upper levels
are not compatible?

Paul

    .44
    
    
    A similar question.. "Should an alcoholic be involved in social
    drinking?"
    
    IMHO

>    Mike it's a weak comparison fro Ki-yup to abominal grunts.  Sorry but I
>    don't see it.  But I still respect you.
    
    Nancy, I don't know where you played football, but the only ones with
    abdominal grunts either had their wind knocked out or had to go to the
    restroom.

    Yeah Nancy, where did you play football? And what position????

    Uh well at Weeno High in Wienerville, NI I was the short end.
    
    :-)
    Nancy

�   <<< Note 366.42 by FRETZ::HEISER "Hey! Ho! Hey! Ho! Hey! Ho! Hey! Ho!" >>>
�    When I played football and hockey in high school, we also had similar
�    grunts/yells/growls/etc. to help us be more physical and aggressive. 

Perhaps the typo in .43 was meant to be 'abominable' grunts.... ;-)

								&

    >Perhaps the typo in .43 was meant to be 'abominable' grunts.... ;-)
    
    Perhaps.  Nancy must have been watching too much Rudolph the Rednosed
    Reindeer reruns.

    -50
    
    Can anyone type the sound for someone sticking their tongue out?