Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Re .0 (Sorry that I forget your first name - I know you've been around
    a while :-)
    
    I would be most interested to hear your comments re Joni Earickson
    Tada's latest book. I don't know if I have the title correct, but I
    believe it's "When Is It Right To Die?"
    
    I read this book several months ago, but I have not talked about it
    with anyone. Joni made me consider various angles that I had not
    considered before. I would enjoy hearing anyone's comments about her
    book.
    
    	BD�

While it is immoral to _prolong_ suffering through artificial means
when there is no hope of recovery, it is likewise immoral to decide
that someone's life is worthless and terminate it before death comes
of its own accord.

Completely separated from any religious issues, the whole concept of
deciding that someone is useless and doing away with them is a most
dangerous trend for society.  It `frees' us from concentrating on
helping the sick and downtrodden and allows us to sweep them under
the rug.

Even if it is ostensibly a personal decision, it may be a personal
decision reached out of hopelessness because of the lack of love and
compassion from the rest of society.

Let us not turn into this sort of hellish world.

/john

	Barry,

	I saw that book in a Christian bookstore, and have been leaning
	towards picking up a copy.  If I get that far, I'll let you know
	what I think.

	Karen

      Hi Ray,
    
        There better be a real good reason why there's any pain
        at all in the world.  (And there is.)
    
        I don't have an answer for you because I honestly don't
        know what I believe on the matter.
    
                                               Tony

Ray,

I just posted John Paul II's encyclical "Salvifici Doloris" (On the 
Christian Meaning of Human Suffering) in the HASTUR::Catholic-Theology notes 
file note 1124.0. I have not read this encyclical but I hear it is very good.

John Paul makes the observation that especially in Catholic theology, suffering
is a means by which we can be conformed to the image of Christ and something
that we can lift up to God for our own benefit or for the benefit of others.

John Paul wrote this I am sure with euthanasia in mind, because there is in 
fact value to suffering even when we know that it will eventually end in death.
JP exhorts those who suffer from terminal illnesses to lift up their sufferings
to Christ for their own benefit and the benefit of the church; and we will 
receive reward in heaven for persevering and suffering for His sake.

I encourage you to read this encyclical. (It is, by the way, 1730 lines.)

Here is the first paragraph from the encyclical.

  1. Declaring the power of salvific suffering, the apostle Paul says:
"In my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for
the sake of his body, that is, the church" [1].

  These words seem to be found at the end of the long road that winds
through the suffering which forms part of the history of man and which
is illuminated by the word of God.  These words have as it were the
value of a final discovery, which is accompanied by joy.  For this
reason St. Paul writes: "Now I rejoice in my suffering for your sake"
[2].  The joy comes from the discovery of the meaning of suffering,
and this discovery, even if it is most personally shared in by Paul of
Tarsus who wrote these words, is at the same time valid for others.
The apostle shares his own discovery and rejoices in it because of all
those whom it can help -- just as it helped him -- to understand the
salvific meaning of suffering.

    
Ray,

        I do not know if this will help any, but I present it to you as
        my thoughts and history reagrding the subject of euthanasia.
    	(I reap the benefit of opt'ing out... 8^) )

  euthanasia is the act of killing a person painlessly for reasons of
             mercy. Or more clearly put, to relieve a person of the
             hardship of suffering a less than desireable life by
             painlessly terminating their existance.

        This was an idea taught to me while I was in the military
        service. ... We had a pack with the guys in my squad, if we are
        hurt with no chance of living a life to our current standards,
        please put us out of our "misery". We each kept a spare bullet
        in our pocket for the event. I and others also carried other
        subtle means of taking a life. The more popularized version
        being cyanogen.

        When I was in this crowd, I thought as they did. That life was
        meaningless if I did not have control of my functions and
        faculties.

        Well the time came... A dear buddy of mine was hurt and there
        was no way of getting him home. He still was conscious and
        vocal, but there was no chance of saving him. He would
        eventually die. He chose to terminate his life. The funny thing
        was, that none of us, (his friends) had the guts to do it. We
        loved him, - with all his faults (the problem was, we never told
        him that). The descision was almost comical if one could see
        humor in this. We descided that if he were going to die, it
        would not be by our hands, but his or his "gods'".

        This person, chose to go quickly, painlessly, he took a capsule.

        The area we were in was still pretty hot, but after about ten or
        so minutes, it was secure and all was quiet. About forty
        minutes later, we were secured; We were rescued.... had we
        known, we could have saved him.

        We begged and pleaded with this guy not to do it, but to fight.
        We were the elite we told him. In fact, we told him all the
        garbage we were taught ourselves. (WE NEVER TOLD HIM THAT WE
        LOVED HIM.) It would take years to train another person to be
        like him. Funny thing was, if it had been me in his shoes, I
        would probably had done the same thing.  - THEN.

        time past... 
 
        One day, I found myself at the business end of an assailant. I
        was hurt real bad.  I too had the choice to make. For me, there
        was actually two choices.
        	1. I take my own life, or
        	2. I take as many of "them" with me before they
        	   totally take me out.

        I chose the latter. (I was too chicken to do it myself. (And I
        did not want any of my buddies to waste a round on me...)

        .. as my buddies fled the hot AO, I kept supressive fire. I do
        not know how, but I managed to survive two more assaults. Not
        being unscathed however. Then the worst happened. A buddy of
        mine who I thought would have long gone, came back for me. He
        picked me up and carried me out of there. I did not understand
        why, so I yelled at him! His response was "I love you."  (You
        must understand, these are men who have been taught to supress
        feelings and emotions of any kind.) It wasn't until his limp
        body fell upon me, that I realized that. He was injured trying
        to save me. (...and we all AGREED that it would be better to die
        than to live a disabled life!)

        Back in the chopper, I recall waking up, seeing my friend
        sitting across from me, staring off into endless space... I
        realized then that he said he loved me and that my life meant
        more to him than letting some bas**rd take it from me, or for me
        to be stupid enough to terminate it myself.

        I awoke in a hospital some days later to learn that the whole
        staff was taking bets on when I was going to die. (A practice
        not as cruel as you would think, ...if you knew the folks...) It
        was in the hospital that I found a higher meaning to life. More
        than I was willing or even able to comprehend. The answer to
        every question I asked about life was "love." Apparently, this
        simple notion of love kept me alive and going. - I learned to
        love through all that which WE see as terrible and foolish. All
        the evil and all the hatred and every thing else. "Love" for me
        was stronger, more substantial, more real than anything I could
        imagine.

        From that point on, I looked at things differently. Through this
        eye of "love" I learned that I could love myself, as evil and as
        dispicable as I was. (for my job was death and destruction of
        "innocent" collaterals).

        I had a wierd "vision" while in the hospital too Ray. I think I
        was "visited." I was told in no uncertain terms that I was
        valuable, that my simple life meant more to God than it did to
        anyone else. That the right of life or death had more
        repercussions than simply breathing or not. That it had an
        eternal meaning. In fact the final choice. The choice of eternal
        love or eternal hatred.

        So Ray, in case you are wondering, I love you. Keep the faith.
        Believe in yourself. Nothing, absolutely nothing in this world
        matters except your personal relationship with a God that loves
        you more dearly than anything else, strangly, even breath itself.

        PDM

	Phil,

	Thanks for sharing that with us...

	Karen

    PDM, 
    
    Thanks for risking the "comfort zone" with your note.  It's very
    powerful and shows just how marvelous our God is.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy
    

Thanks Phil.  I need to re-read this when I can go through it more slowly.
Very, very profound and moving.

Leslie

    re .7
    
    Yeah, that is a tremendous reply.
    
                                                 Thanks!,
    
                                                 Tony

    This morning on my way to the office, I listned to "Focus on the
    Family" and heard the following story from I believe it is the Lt.
    Govenor of Arkansas, who is a Baptist minister.  He was recounting the
    story of World War II, and a B-17 Flying Fortress returning from a
    mission over France.  It had been hit hard by German fire and the 18
    year old airman in the bubble turret on the belly of the plane was
    badly wounded and the turret was damaged so that he could not be
    removed.  The plane was losing speed and altitude and the pilot
    determined that it would crash in the Atlantic, so he ordered the men
    to don their parachutes and leave the plane.  As the young airman so
    his comrades leaving the plane, he cried out in agony and fright at
    being left alone to die.  The young Captian was the last to leave, and
    the co-pilot, before he jumped, saw and heard him do this:  He tossed
    aside his parachute and sat down in the belly of the plane and
    reassured the young gunner that they would go down together, so that he
    gave the last few minutes of his life to comfort a frightened dying
    man.  If lives are this precious, even  for these few last moments, how 
    can anyone throw one away? 
    

Apparently Jack Kevorkian (I can't call him "Dr.") spoke from the pulpit
at St. Paul's Presbyterian Church in Livonia, Michigan, on Sunday, and
got a huge round of applause from the congregation.

Are there any Presbyterians among us who feel like calling up the pastor
and asking him how he can possibly support Jack the Dripper?

I would have done so if this had been one of our parishes.

/john

I get more and more ashamed to be a part of the Presbyterian Church (USA).

Could you get me a copy of wherever you heard this?

Paul

 It is my opinion that Kevorkian is a sick man.







Jim

The attached statement speaks clearly against assisted suicide in paragraph 2.
The remainder of the document deals with the more difficult question of what
to do about someone who is very, very ill with no hope of recovery, and keeping
such a person alive by extraordinary means.

                    THE EPISCOPAL CHURCH AND EUTHANASIA

Resolved, the House of Bishops concurring, That this 70th General Convention
[1991] set forth the following principles and guidelines with regard to the
forgoing of life-sustaining treatment in the light of our understanding of
the sacredness of human life:

1. Although human life is sacred, death is a part of the earthly cycle of
life.  There is a ``time to be born and a time to die'' (Eccl. 3:2).  The
resurrection of Jesus Christ transforms death into a transition to eternal
life: ``For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection
of the dead'' (I Cor. 15:21).

2. Despite this hope, it is morally wrong and unacceptable to take a human
life in order to relieve suffering caused by incurable illness.  This would
include the intentional shortening of another person's life by the use of a
lethal dose of medication or poison, the use of lethal weapons, homicidal
acts, and other forms of active euthanasia.

3. However, there is no moral obligation to prolong the act of dying by
extraordinary means and at all costs if such dying person is ill and has
no reasonable expectation of recovery.

4. In those cases involving persons who are in a comatose state from which
there is no reasonable expectation of recovery, subject to legal restraints,
this Church's members are urged to seek the advice and counsel of members of
the church community, and where appropriate, its sacramental life, in
contemplating the withholding or removing of life-sustaining systems,
including hydration and nutrition.

5. We acknowledge that the withholding or removing of life-sustaining
systems has a tragic dimension.  The decision to withhold or withdraw
life-sustaining treatment should ultimately rest with the patient, or
with the patient's surrogate decision-makers in the case of a mentally
incapacitated patient.  We therefore express our deep conviction that any
proposed legislation on the part of national or state governments regarding
the so-called ``right to die'' issues, (a) must take special care to see
that the individual's rights are respected and that the responsibility of
individuals to reach informed decisions in this matter is acknowledged and
honored, and (b) must also provide expressly for the withholding or
withdrawing of life-sustaining systems, where the decision to withhold or
withdraw life-sustaining systems has been arrived at with proper safeguards
against abuse.

6. We acknowledge that there are circumstances in which health care
providers, in good conscience, may decline to act on request to terminate
life-sustaining systems if they object on moral or religious grounds.
In such cases we endorse the idea of respecting the patient's right to
self-determination by permitting such patient to be transferred to another
facility or physicial willing to honor the patient's request, provided that
the patient can readily, comfortably and safely be transferred.  We
encourage health care providers who make it a policy to decline involvement
in the termination of life-sustaining systems to communicate their policy to
patients or their surrogates at the earliest opportunity, preferably before
the patients or their surrogates have engaged the services of such a health
care provider.

7. Advance written directives (so-called ``living wills,'' ``declarations
concerning medical treatment'' and ``durable powers of attorney setting
forth medical declarations'') that make a person's wishes concerning the
continuation or withholding or removing of life-sustaining systems should be
encouraged, and this Church's members are encouraged to execute such advance
written directives during good health and competence and that the execution
of such advance written directives constitute loving and moral acts.

8. We urge the Council of Seminary Deans, the Christian Education
departments of each diocese, and those in charge of programs of continuing
education for clergy and all others responsibie for education programs in
this Church, to consider seriously the inclusion of basic training in issues
of prolongation of life and death with dignity in their curricula and
programs.

    I saw a special on our PBS station here in Santa Clara, Ca which spoke
    of Euthanasia in Holland.  It is legal there and aids patients are
    requesting euthanasia while still in there healthy stage of life.  They
    wish to "Die with Dignity" is the phrase.  However, the way it is
    handled there is that the patient and the doctor become very well
    acquainted prior to the fatal injection being given.
    
    They have glorified death and made it almost appear as a very noble act
    to choose euthanasia.  In the case of an aids patient who is still in
    health, multiple psychological analysises [wd] were completed prior to
    consent of the doctor.  
    
    They actually showed a terminally ill grandmother and 3 aids patients
    go to sleep while doing exactly what they wanted when they die.  The
    elderly grandmother's wish was to die after she had her last shot of
    vodka and an inhaled smoke....  then to close her eyes and go to sleep. 
    I near about cried ... this was supposed to be dying with dignity and
    all this frail woman did was die with her vices.... how sad... 
    
    This really grieved me, but left me feeling very mixed.
    
    
    Nancy
    

The trouble with euthanasia is that it takes into 'our' hands something 
that is God's possession.  He gave us life.  For us to reject it at any 
stage saying 'the gift you gave me is no longer welcome' is rejecting His 
authority and righteousness, and our responsibility to Him.

It also rejects the meaningfulness of life beyond the physical reaction of 
our pleasure.  It denies that there is an eternity for which we are being 
equipped.  It throws away the greatest gift of all...

Life is holy to the LORD Who gave it, as is clearly shown in Genesis 
9:4-6.  The key to that life is in the blood, which must therefore not be 
used as food, but returned to the earth, with respect .... as in Leviticus 
17.

Some time ago when I was particularly troubled about the large proportion
who lose their faculties in old age, I brought the concern before the LORD 
very specifically. 

The answer I received was that we are taught through suffering (Hebrews
12:4-11).  This 'teaching' is a 'training of the soul', not a 'battering
into shape'...  We are being taught throughout our lives, but many of us 
reject the harder discipline, preferring the comfort of this world.  Near 
the end of life, there is often much training still to be undergone, which 
fits us for our full potential in heaven.  To reject that final 'tough
training' is to reject an opportunity of glory.  Not earthly glory - that's 
not what we're here for at all.  More like Romans 8:18 :
 "I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the 
  glory that will be revealed in us...."
and 2 Corinthians 4:17 : 
 "For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal 
glory that far out weighs them all..."

And in case you are tempted to think that Paul, in writing this, had had it 
too easy ('light and momentary troubles' etc), check out his lifestyle 
from 2 Corinthians 11:23-28, some examples of which are mentioned in Acts 
14:19 and  16:22-25.  He *knew* where his treasure was...

The fallacy of 'dying with dignity' is more a clinging to pride; dying 
rather than submitting to the hardest lessons in life.

Another aspect which I was aware of, was the fact that it is in old age
that such infirmities strike.  When there is only a short time to have to
endure them.  When our appetite for worldly pleasures will be worn out, if
ever it is.  Suppose the hard lessons struck in youth.  We would then have
the majority of our life for which to endure them.  However, in youth, the
lessons are offered more gently - as an option, almost. 

Ecclesiastes 12:1 :
 "Remember your Creator in the days of your youth, before the days of 
  trouble come and the years approach when you will say, 'I find no 
  pleasure in them'..."

						God bless
							Andrew

re: .18

Did they talk about the fact that in Holland now, there has emerged a
not-so-subtle pressure to step out when you're old and infirm?  A
guilt-inducing accusation of "You're not going to put a burden on your
children and on society, are you?"

Dignity has nothing to do with it.  Dignity is the word that will be used for
genocide on the elderly and infirm, just as choice is the word that has been
used for genocide on the unborn.

Paul

	Andrew,

	Thank you, that was wonderful!

	Committing suicide, or asking someone to help you die to end
	suffering is like saying to God, "I've reached the wall, the point
	beyond which I will no longer lay my trust in you."

	God's mercy and compassion are upon all of his creations.  In our
	hours of deepest suffering, we need to hold tightly to God, not
	take the matter into our own hands, for fear that God will not
	shine his mercy upon us.

	Karen

    .20
    
    I can't agree with you more!  

    
    Paul,  I really can't understand how you stand to continue your
    association with the Presbyterian USA sect.  They're gone completely as
    far as I can tell.
    
    jeff

re: .23

Long answer, not today.

Paul

>	Committing suicide, or asking someone to help you die to end
>	suffering is like saying to God, "I've reached the wall, the point
>	beyond which I will no longer lay my trust in you."

	Good insight Karen.  Thanks much.

        Leslie

    Thanks for the well thought out notes.  Though I didn't start this
    topic, I have gained a lot of insight from it.  I have been against
    uthenasia since becoming a Christian, but could never quite logically
    put together why it was so wrong.  I've always been of a mind that to
    take a life in this way is wrong, as God can use this suffering for His
    own purpose...but that's as far as my logic went.
    
    -steve

	I'm not sure of the outcome of good ole Jack, but I really wish they
would make it illegal to have suicides. I can sympathize with the people going
through the pain they're having (but can't even begin to realize how the pain
must feel) but I can't see having someone else play God and take the life. 



Glen

I just read an article yesterday about Jack Kevorkian.

It seems that he went on public record 20 years ago as advocating human
experimentation on the (quote from memory) "Mentally incompetent, elderly,
the unborn, and unwanted children below a certain age (age to be determined)"

Oh, such great respect for life.

"Tell a lie, tell it often enough, and the people will come to believe it"
							- A. Hitler

Paul

 See .16





 Jim

    .30
    
    Having recently gone through a similar situation of watching someone
    suffer, I can relate to the anger, desperation and pain of which you
    are speaking Ray.  But I can assure you Ed didn't curse God instead he
    begged people to not give up... his last words to all of us were,
    "Don't Give Up!" in a message he gave our congregation just 3 days
    before he died.
    
    He had malignant malinoma... there is no cancer more painful than this
    one ask any oncologist, it is the most dreaded of all cancers... quick
    and painful.
    
    Ed was a man held up by the grace of God because of his faith... I
    don't and won't condemn your father for what he did... but the
    difference I see between the two is "faith"... and "hope".
    
    Ed died on November 20, 1994.... and I think of him every day...

    Ray,
    
    I'm not sure where you're coming from with this.  You said a lot in
    your note.  Again, I think a lot of your question comes back to, "Why
    is there suffering?", "why would a loving God allow suffering?".  The
    answers to these I don't begin to completely know.  I do know that Jesus 
    and many of the 1st century Christians suffered as much as anyone.  Hebrews
    12:2-3 says for us to "fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter
    of faith, who for the joy set before Him, endured the cross, despising
    the shame, and has sat down at the right hand of the throne of God. 
    For consider Him who has endured such hostility by sinners against
    Himself, so that you may not grow weary and lose heart."  
    
    You mentioned about the members of this conference being "faithful".  I
    would say that the majority of the folks in this conference would say
    that it's not about our being faithful, but its all about the fact that
    HE is faithful.  Heb 4:15-16 says, "For we do not have a high priest
    who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted
    in all things as we are, yet without sin.  Let us therefore draw near
    with confidence to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and
    may find grace to help in time of need."  Eph 2:8-9 says that salvation
    is a FREE gift.  Our faith is nothing more than receiving His grace for
    us.  If there is anything worthy which is produced through the
    Christian life it is CHRIST producing it.  Its not about our ability to
    hold on to God, through our faithfulness, Its about His holding on to
    His children, even though we be unfaithful.  Rom 8:35, "Who shall
    separate us from the love of Christ?  Shall tribulation, or distress,
    or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?"  And in
    8:38-39 Paul says that nothing shall be able to separate us from the
    love of God. 
    
    God nevers promises that we'll be free of suffering.  Everyone endures 
    some measure of suffering in their life.  God does promise that He'll
    be there for us to comfort us in the midst of our suffering, however. 
    
    Love in Him,
    
    Bing

    .32
    
    Nothing separates us from the love of God, but ourselves.  God remains
    constant, we do the moving around.
    
    The question I have is if *we* leave God... does he stay against our
    will?

    Rom 8:35-39, "Who shall separate us from the love of Christ?  Shall 
    tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or 
    peril, or sword?  Just as it is written [FOR THY SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT
    TO DEATH ALL DAY LONG;  WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED.]
    But in all these things we overwhelminly conquer through Him who loved
    us.  For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor
    principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor
    height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to
    separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
    
    				Rom 8:35-39

Ray,

If you have to do with people close to death, especially where there is 
much suffering, and modern medicine tries to numb them with drugs, you 
often find them saying things towards the end that are totally inconsistent 
with all they believe and stand for.  I remember in particular a family at 
church who were most embarrassed by the death of the wife's father, because 
of the things he would say as he lay in the hospital.

When someone is in extreme pain, he can be reduced to behaviour which is
not himself (remember how even on the cross, the LORD Jesus refused the
drugged win, in Mathew 27:34). Don't judge someone by the blood that flows
when they are hit.  Don't take the flailing limbs which hit out aimlessly
to strike you in their death throes, as being more significant gestures than
the hugs they expressed to you in life. 

Ray, do you think God is bigger or smaller than those people who told you
he could only judge by those last minutes?  God is *** real ***.  More real
than your fundie friends, with all their limited understanding and stock
answers.  God knows the heart.  God loves.  Even where our understanding
hits a brick wall.  Especially there.

You've read the book of Job, and know that Job was especially trusted by
God.  All Job's trials weren't just God and the devil showing off to each
other.  God had a reason for holding Job up to the devil as an example, to
direct the devils attention to him.  It was because though Job was a strong
and faithful witness, God had better for him.  Through his suffering and
pain, he came to a position of knowing God which made him more efefctive in
life - and more glorious in death, ie in eternity.  I didn't understand a
lot about Job until I listened to a tape series a few months back, and that
really opened up the character of the book as it develops through the
chapters.  [ I must go through it again, taking notes...] .  When we go
through hard things, God is 'trusting' us there not to turn from him, as
Job's wife advised. 

Why do people suffer physical limitations in old age?  It is because God
still has some lessons for them to learn which cannot be learnt in eternity
- that would be too late.  He cares for them enough to complete the job
down here.  Just imagine if He gave us those lessons early in life, and we
had to go through the majority of our lives with the suffering usuallt
limited to the elderly...   Our God is more merciful and loving than we
realise.  He cared for your father, Ray.  He cares for you.


� and yes i do pray to jesus, although am told he does not listen to the
� prayers of dirty degenerate hearts or angry people...

Mark 2:17 says 
  "Jesus said to them 'It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 
   I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.'"
(Also in Matthew 9:12 and Luke 5:31-32)

Remember the parable of the prayers of the pharisee and the tax collector
in Luke 18:9-14.  God is more concerned with honest prayer from the heart
than a facade of fancy words.  But He also expects us to mean our words and 
promises in return, so that He has a channel for blessing to you.

				May God bless you richly...

								Andrew

A seventyish couple has just committed suicide by asphyxiation in order
to donate their significant fortune to their church rather than have it
used up for elderly care and medical expenses.

Some may say that giving up their lives for charitable purposes is the
supreme act of Christian charity.

Although our Lord did say "Greater love hath no man than that he should
give up his life for his brother" I don't think he had this in mind.

/john

I find that desperately sad.  Life is not ours to dispense with at our 
decision.  And it is infinitely more valuable a resource than all the 
wealth the world could disgorge....

								andrew

    .36
    
    :-(  And I was just telling my boss this weekend that the elderly are
    the *gems* of the earth, the precious ones, not emeralds, diamonds or
    rubies... this really hurts in my heart.

	Ray, correct me if I am wrong, but I got one distinct impression from
your note. The place talked about aids patients dieing peacefully, why you have
noticed it much differently. I think this was one thing you were objecting to.
Is the problem you are having with this that:

1) Physically they were in pain, so they couldn't die peacefully.

2) The clergy used figorative terms to describe a death that was more than 
   likely Hell.

3) That whenever there is talk of dieing and Christ, it's peaceful, but if it
   is perceived that Christ wasn't present it wasn't peaceful (spiritually).

4) All of the above.

5) None of the above.


Glen

RE: 361.35 - Thank you Andrew.  

Ray, what Andrew says is important to consider and remember.  My mother's 
passage through the last moments of pain from cancer, and confusion from drugs
to relieve pain, and confusion from pain, and confusion from the body shutting
down on itself are brought back to my memory.

Before those last three days of shutting down though, she had gathered us 
around and spoke of her love for us, and how her heavenly Father had shown 
her love and guided her all through her life.  That part was coherent, strong,
and true to the mother I had known all through my life.  

The parts that came later, when she thought she was being buried and given a 
funeral contrary to the kind she wanted, when she kept trying to get up to do 
laundry or something down in the basement, when she said to my Dad, "I have to
confess, some other man brought me soup and so I slept with him, I'm sorry." 
(the last few weeks, she'd been unable to eat anything but soup which my Dad 
prepared and brought to her), and when she thought she had already died, and 
my sister and Dad were dead along with her, "Jean, how do you think your 
husband will feel when he finds out he's a widower?", the times when she said,
 "I thought it would be different, not like this", those things were coming 
from confusion and pain, not from who my mother really was.  But it is terribly
painful to those who haved love, who do love, the dying person that says these
confused, sometimes frightened, sometimes angry things.  I choose to remember 
the mother who was the wise and strong listener and friend, because that is the
true person.

I don't know what it is to be you Ray.  I do know that many, many other people
have experienced pain and sorrow in their lives.  Some cannot cope, and are
undone, fragmented, bitter, angry .... some come through strong and with a 
kind of peace, although they bear scars.  Some loose all vestigages, every 
kernal and seed, of faith and joy while others find an inner core of faith in 
the Lord that endures through every trial, and find themselves trusting in Him
more and more for everything.  I don't know what accounts for the difference.
I pray you will brought out of the maelstrom of dark thoughts, doubts and
anger that your postings portray into something better.

Leslie

RE: 361.30 - Ray


>    What bothered me more was what mom told me about what happened when
>    the priest came to give the last rights, dad get very agitated and
>    fought the priest like all hell. 

     Ray, your father may have been very confused and in fog that didn't
     permit him to see clearly who the people were and what it was they 
     were doing.  He perhaps didn't understand and thought something was 
     happening to him that would hurt or harm him.  Some of my most painful 
     memories are of when we had to change the sheets on Mom's bed, and she 
     went completely erratic and frightened, and thought all kinds of weird 
     things were happening to her.  

>>  I told some fundie acquaintances about this, who assured me that dad 
>>  lost his faith, and had blasphemed the almighty and was most assuredly 
>>  turning on some bar-b-que spit in hell for all eternity. If dad is in 
>>  hell, then i'd rather take my chances where he is than in this supposed 
>>  heaven.

    Why put so much stock in what people say that goes contrary to all you
    knew about your own Father?  Why always put stock in what people say
    when they talk of a God who doesn't understand our failings and 
    limitations, and doesn't have mercy?
    
>>    i do pray to jesus, although am told he does not listen to the prayers
>>    of dirty degenerate hearts or angry people............

    Jesus spent so much time socializing with, and caring for and about sinners 
    that the same type of self righteous people that are here with us today
    and cause such discouragement, questioned whether he was from God or from 
    the devil.  Its there in the stories about the tax collectors, the woman 
    at the well, the prostitute of whom he was asked, "Should she be stoned?",
    His reaction to children whom the disciples would have sent away as an 
    unimportant distractions, but whom He chose to bless, and others as well.
    He listens to all who come to Him Ray, all of us, you, me, and the woman 
    He rescued from Satan and prostitution - Mary Magdalene, the first person 
    He appeared to after being risen from death.

    Leslie

    	re elderly couple:
    
    	Is this the start of the movement for the transition from "right
    	to die" into "duty to die"?

RE:              <<< Note 361.42 by CSC32::J_OPPELT "I'm an orca." >>>

       
   > 	Is this the start of the movement for the transition from "right
   > 	to die" into "duty to die"?



  Eeeesh...Didn't former Colorado Governor Richard Lamm advocate "duty to
 die"?



Jim

    Leslie. I just want to thank you for sharing with us those very
    precious moments in your life. I find your replies full of wisdom and
    love.  :)
    
    God Bless you:
    Sylvain

    Thank you Sylvain.  I tried to send mail to you, but kept getting
    "no such user".

    Leslie

    Thats OK Leslie, Im a man of a thousand accounts (right Andrew)   ;-)
    Never know who I am or where Im going, how much more for someone trying
    to reach me.  I'll send *you* mail from my real account, that way there
    will be no more hiding on my part.
    
    Sylvain