Conference yukon::christian_v7

 These are tough questions, for which there are no easy answers and we
 may not gain a total understanding until we see Him.

 My mother died when I was 8, my grandfather (my mother's father) just one
 week later.  They were just about all my grandmother had, other than my
 2 brothers and I, one of whom robbed her of just about all she had.  Yet
 through this and other suffering, her faith did not crumble.  

 The scripture that comes to mind is "my grace is sufficient for thee"..Nowhere
 are we promised that life will be all pleasantries.  I have a close friend
 who was born blind and who has every reason to be angry with God.  His wife
 was born without kneecaps and with dwarfism and she has every reason to be
 angry with God particularly now as her health is beginning to fail her.  And
 yet, they take what was given them, and have made a life for themselves, and
 were both saved about 7 months ago.

 Its sad to deal with these things your friend is dealing with.  Our pastor's
 sermon this past Sunday was "In God's hand"..no matter what comes our way,
 we are in His hand..and nothing can pluck us out of that hand.


 I don't have the words to help your friend...but I can still say that God
 is there.  He has not left us.  We've all experienced situations where we
 pray and pray and pray again for someone only to see them die.  We sometimes
 forget that even then God has answered the prayer..His answers are greater
 than our desires, and in the death of one of His, is also the testimony of
 His grace and love.



 I'll be praying for your friend.



 Jim

Surely this is difficult.

To view the issue from another perspective, consider:

  We tell God what He should do to make things better (in our
  eyes) for ourselves (usually) or someone else and then blame
  Him when He doesn't do it.  By blame Him, I mean we refuse
  to accept His love, His peace, His forgiveness and instead
  heap bitterness up in our hearts against Him.

And the question we then ask is,

  Why is God so unwilling to do the best for us?

The answer, of course, is we are blind, stubborn, ignorant,
lovers of self and rebellious.  However, have you ever tried
to change the mind (or attitude) of someone who is blind,
stubborn, ignorant, selfish and rebellious?  Pointing out
the problem doesn't usually do it.  :-)

Faith is trusting in God even when the external circumstances
would not seem to warrant it.  For those who have bitterness
and need faith, we can only pray that

  - God would open their eyes
  - God would give them (or increase their) faith

God, help us to believe you rather than ourselves.

Collis

To do the subject justice would take volumes of books, but I'd like to make 
a few comments.

First, anyone struggling with understanding suffering should read the book of
Job.

Second, my comments. I am aquainted with suffering; I lost my mother
unexpectedly and suddenly when I was thirteen years old. I was devastated. Yet
without that experience, I do not think I would have been converted to Christ.

It is important to realize that SUFFERING PERFECTS US IN THE IMAGE OF CHRIST
and is even important for our salvation.  Suffering is beneficial to the 
Christian, even if its root effects are from sin and evil.  God's suffering
won redemption for the whole world; how can we look at the terrible, un-
imaginable sufferings of the perfect God-man, Jesus Christ, on the Cross and
then hate God because He makes us suffer?  If He permitted his only begotten
Son to die on the Cross as an innocent Lamb, why should we demand better
treatment from God?

Many, such as myself, came to receive salvation as an effect of undergoing
suffering.  Suffering makes us focus our eyes on God and not on the transitory
things of this world.  It strips away all impurities, vanities, wood, hay, and
stubble in our lives. It is through suffering that we are made stronger and 
conformed to Christ.

I have not suffered only from my mother's death, but also due to my own sins,
my own weaknesses, my own psychological disposition.  I have gone through what
I consider pretty significant struggles and sufferings.  Yet now I see that 
these sufferings have borne fruit: I am a much better Christian and a better
person because of them, my faith is rock solid, and I love the Lord much more
than if He had always treated me nicely and given me everything I wanted.

We are like raw metal which God wants to form into a useful tool.  To do so, he
needs to put us in the fire and pound us on the anvil, sometimes several times,
before we are perfected and made into more useful tools.  We should yield to
God's efforts to form us.  No, it will not be easy, but we should commend our-
selves without reserve to God's will, offering our suffering for the sake of
our own spiritual development and asking God to let us benefit from it.

The Scripture, "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world but to lose
his very soul", is very apropos here.  We can also look at it this way: it
profits a man to lose the whole world if by doing so he gains his very soul.

Look at the lives of the Apostles.  Talk about an example of suffering! With
the exception of St. John, every one of them was martyred.  Shipwrecks,
beatings, martyrdoms, stonings -- everything imaginable.  But yet they
rejoiced, because they had the Spirit of God, and understood the value of
suffering.

What is the cause of suffering?  The cause of suffering, in this world, is the
Fall of Adam and the power of sin and Satan over this world.  Satan rules over
the world for now, and he delights in suffering.  Suffering is not sent by God,
but it can be permitted by God; it is permitted by God because He can use it
for good, and without it, man would not be aware that he was a sinner in need
of salvation.  Suffering, then, is a characteristic only of this system of
things -- but this system of things is passing away.

Which brings me to the most compelling reason for Christians not to be fazed
(sp?) by suffering.  The destiny of those who are to be saved is eternal life,
the Resurrection and life without suffering and life without end.  When we've
lived with God for a million years, these short 72 years or so in this life
will be quickly dwarfed by the life to come.  What happens here matters very
little: I feel sorry for any Christian who focuses his efforts on trying to
make this life pleasant and useful, when the glory to be revealed is so much
greater, and we should be living our lives today to prepare ourselves for then,
not living for the moment, trying to rearrange things in this garbage dump
when in a few blinks of God's eye, we are going to be basking in the full
glory, love, and presence of God, living forever without any more suffering,
death, pain, or sickness, forever.  Forever!  An infinite number of years!
This life is infinitesimal compared to that one!  And so let us fix our eyes
on the life to come, and so doing, what happens in this life will be of little
consequence to us.

Eric

 To quote, I believe, Francis Schaefer "He is there and He is not silent"




 Jim

    Hi Ann,
    
    Remember my background?  Remember the abuse I suffered at the hands
    of those who gave birth to me?  Molested by my father, abandoned by my
    mother [even tho' she was around at times], and placed in a foster
    home.
    
    I, too, rejected God as a result of feeling abandoned by Him when I
    needed Him most... [so I thought], I also was angry because I didn't
    choose my parents, why in the world did He allow me to be born to them!
    
    After knowing the miracle of salvation, my circumstances got the best
    of me and I plunged into the world with resentment, anger and emotional
    pain as I rejected the very God of my salvation.
    
    When I was going through the trials, I was the blinded person that
    Collis spoke about.  You could not have convinced me that God
    really cared about *me* personally.  He died for the *world*, I was
    just an insignificant part of the world.  
    
    My rebellion carried me through until I began suffering the
    consequences of my own behavior, and was no longer a victim.  I do not
    know how old your friend is, but the key to beginning to understand God
    [which we can only do in part], is taking responsibility for our own
    lives and no longer being a victim to blame someone else for our
    choices.
    
    God granted me the ability to break the umbilical cord to my parents
    and begin taking responsibility for my actions when I was around 28
    years old.  The catharsis being my father's death.
    
    I believe the Holy Spirit's calming direction heard either within the
    individual's open, spiritual ear or through a surrendered individual,
    presenting the disection needed to explain the process of determ��ining
    personal responsibility could greatly help your friend.
    
    It's a struggle and denial of this truth is the first reaction, but a
    heart open to wanting healing will find its way to Truth.
    
    I know this may seem vague, I hope not, please ask questions if you
    don't fully understand what I mean to say.
    
    Love in Him,
    Nancy

    
    My friend has been molested by her stepfather and her mother never
    would allow her to play with other children and her sister did
    strange things to her. 
    
    How do you tell someone who doesn't want to listen hear about
    how God feels about them? 
    
    In the Ten Commandments it says we aren't to Kill, and this
    means ourselves...what happens to a person who is a Christian
    and gets depressed and kill themselves ? 
    
    Ann
    
    

    Ann, 
    
    The how is through the Holy Spirit... I believe the Holy Spirit, that
    quiet still voice that is inside each person can reach even the
    unreachable.  
    
    Ann, how does God feel about you?  Can you describe in one paragraph
    how He feels about you.. Not how you feel about Him.
    
    Nancy

    
    Nancy,
    
      I am not having a problem in how God feels about me I am trying to
    find out how to share with someone who doesn't want to hear it.
    
     Jesus is a good example in how much God Loves me and everyone.
     Unconditional, that's how much he Loves us and we should for 
     others.
    
     Ann
    
    

      Hi Ann,
    
        How're you doing?
    
        As far as what you can do...
    
        The only thing you can do is reflect Christ's character.  The
        only thing that can lighten anyone's dark heart is God's love
        and all you can do is be a channel through which it can flow.
        Of course the specifics of what this means are huge and I know
        I'm being very general!  (But, as you grow in discerning, in ALL
        things whether what to say or not to say or do or not to do, you
        will hear a word behind you saying. "This is the way, walk ye in
        it.")  Consider sharing God's love to be a pill which heals the
        sin-sick heart.  The pill (if taken) works every time, however
        the fact is that it may be refused.  Still, it is far better to
        always offer the pill and give someone a chance to partake of it
        rather than to not make it available.  Then the person has less
        chance to partake for there is less love for him to see.
    
        As far as your asking why, the following is my 2 cents...
    
        If there is sin in the heart, a full revelation of the glory of
        God will bring to the conscioussness a full revelation of the
        destructive potential in sin.  When Satan first sinned, God made
        a choice.  Rather than not veil Himself and thus allow sin to 
        destroy Satan, He chose to veil His glory and allow Satan to live.
        The reason God did so is that all of the intelligent unfallen 
        creation would have served God partly out of fear and (to some
        extent) the problem of sin would not have been taken care of.
        Had God allowed Satan to be destroyed, it would have been unclear
        to His intelligent creation that sin is death and righteoussness 
        is life.
    
        Planet Earth is a universal stage wherein the principles of sin
        and of righteoussness have been and will be allowed to come to
        full fruition.  THIS IS THE ONLY WAY GOD COULD HAVE SETTLED IN
        THE MINDS OF HIS INTELLIGENT CREATION OF THE PERFECTION OF HIS
        WAY.  This is the only way He could safeguard His followers from
        the ravages of sin and to load them up with a revelation of the
        goodness of His way.  Once sin and righteoussness are brought to
        full fruition, God's followers will never touch sin again.  They
        will be eternally safe.
    
        Unfortunately, all the above implies the existence of sin for a
        time and this implies the existence of pain.  Thus the temporary
        existence of sin and pain are due to (in part) God's perfect
        character. 
    
        In a sense, God's hands are tied.  The time will come when there
        are no more tears, but we are living in that strange time period
        wherein God's creation have yet to have it fully settled in their
        minds that God's way is perfect beyond anything we can fathom and
        that sin is so awful that it is insanity to touch it - as evidenced
        by the fact that we are still sinners.
    
        I hope as you read the above, you can see how it can coexist that
        God is infinite, unconditional love and there must be sin (and thus
        pain) for a season.
    
                                                   Love and God Bless,
    
                                                   Tony
                  

    Ann,
    
    The reason I asked the question was because if you can describe how God
    feels about you, in intimate terms, then you can explain how God feels
    about others... [BTW, I didn't mean for you write it in here, sorry if
    that wasn't clear].
    
    But if there are some brave souls out there who can write the intimacy
    of their relationship with God and how He effects your life and cares for
    you, I'd enjoy reading it.
    
    Oh, BTW, I just thought of something, Ann, when someone is that
    destitute from God, usually actions towards them in the name of Christ
    are the best way to demonstrate how God feels about them.  It's good to
    be able to articulate, but its even better to be able to show and then
    give God credit for the action.
    
    Example:
    
    A blind woman's husband had died of cancer a month earlier.  I had met
    her husband in a hospital emergency room [I had sprained my ankle, He
    was not breathing well] and they had us both waiting to be X-rayed.  He
    began to tell me about his life, his wife, his cancer, his impending
    death and I sat there mummyfied unable to say much in response, I was
    in tears mostly, but didn't want him to see them, because I felt he
    needed to speak and didn't want to stop him.
    
    His death made it into the newspaper as a big article, as he'd been a
    bigwig at Lawrence Livermore National Labs, where they think his cancer
    was caused from radiation exposure.  When I read it [which was a
    miracle, cuz I didn't get the newspaper every day], I made an effort to
    visit the wife at her home.  As she was blind, she was very cautious at
    first, and unwilling to meet with me... he never told her about *our*
    conversation.  As I began to tell her intimate details of his life,
    she realized I was real.  
    
    I took her meals, I helped clean her house [she's blind remember] and
    every time I did something for her, I always told her that God had laid
    it on my heart to do so.  Then the time came for me to offer her the
    plan of salvation and that's when the words to describe how God loved
    her and me came into fruition.
    
    As an afterthought, I think I may have been wrong in the leading
    thought of *telling* someone about how God loves them... it seems the
    fragility of this woman who was blind, and of your dear friend, may
    better respond to *showing* God's love... remember to always give Him
    credit as He lays these things on your heart.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy
    
    

    Please forgive me if I've already posted this before.
    
    Some people may remember a prayer request I put out a few years ago for
    a pending adoption case of a little boy by his stepfather. The boy's
    stepfather wanted to take him to New Zealand to start a new life after
    the very sad death of the boy's mother. God granted those prayers and
    the boy is living with his stepfather in Australia, now. I'd like to
    fill in a few details which weren't apparent at the time.
    
    Firstly the boy's mother had periods of depression throughout her life.
    She had a terrible upbringing - was abused and neglected. She had tried
    to commit suicide in her teens. She then married and had her first
    child. The father abandoned them and, when I first met her, she was
    living in a damp council flat on state benefits. No maintenance,
    because she had no idea where her husband was. After a while, we
    persuaded her to go to work. We thought it might help if she wasn't
    stuck in that flat all day long. The little boy was at school in the day
    (he was suffering from behavioural problems and at the age of 8 had
    been sent to a childrens hostel during the week, coming home at
    weekends). She went to work for a local firm.
    
    On the second day, she met Dave. Dave had arrived in Reading the week
    before. He'd been in England for 6 months and had gone from one country
    to another, working with horses. The stables in England had suffered
    severe storm damage and he arrived in Reading and took the first job he
    could. He was also a commited Christian.
    
    Within six months, they were married. It was a shock, but he was so
    good for the little boy that he came home permanently and they began to
    make plans for starting a new life in New Zealand.
    
    Ros became pregnant, but miscarried. They were thrilled when she became
    pregnant again. As soon as she could, Ros found out that she was   
    expecting a little girl, which she'd always wanted. 
    
    I'm not sure why she became depressed again. I think that she'd had so
    much unhappiness in her life that she really couldn't believe that
    things were going right for her. She sank deeper and deeper until Dave
    was actually feeding her and bathing her. Her doctor committed her to a
    psychiatric hospital, but this did no good at all and she discharged
    herself. They told her that if she didn't pull herself together they'd
    take both the little boy and her baby into care.
    
    Two weeks after she came out of hospital and just over a year after her
    marriage, she swallowed a bottle of anti-depressants. She was 28 years
    old and seven months pregnant.
    
    I don't know to this day why she did it. She seemed to turn against
    everything and everyone. She didn't want to know about the baby. She
    hated Dave. She didn't want to know God. She even hated her little boy.
    
    Neither could we understand at first why God had sent Dave all that way
    just to be hurt so badly. Until we realised that the little boy really
    had no-one else. 
    
    If Dave hadn't been there, he could have gone to his uncle's home, but
    his Aunt was always jealous of Ros and they had three children already.
    He could have gone to his grandparents, who had abused and neglected
    Ros all those years ago.
    Or he could have gone into care.
    
    God had nothing to do with Ros's death - we have a free choice and Ros
    chose to do what she did - but I believe it was forseen by Him and He sent 
    Dave to look after that little boy. He cared enough about a nine year old 
    child to send someone half way round the world to take care of him.

			God's Mysterious Ways

				(T.H White)


		A Rabbi went on a journey with the prophet Elijah. They
	walked all day, and at nightfall they came to the humble cottage
	of a poor man, whose only treasure was a cow. The poor man ran 
	out of the cottage, and his wife ran too, to welcome the strangers
	for the night and to offer them all the simple hospitality which
	they were able to give in straitened circumstances. Elijah and the
	Rabbi were entertained with plenty of the cow's milk, sustained by
	home-made bread and butter, and they were put to sleep in the best
	bed while their kindly hosts lay down before the kitchen fire. But
	in the morning the poor man's cow was dead.
		They walked all the next day, and came that evening to the
	house of a very wealthy merchant, whose hospitality they craved.
	The merchant was cold and proud and rich, and all that he would do
	for the prophet and his companion was to lodge them in a cowshed
	and feed them on bread and water. In the morning, however, Elijah
	thanked him very much for what he had done, and sent for a mason
	to repair one of his walls, which happened to be falling down, as a
	return for his kindness.
		The Rabbi, unable to keep silence any longer, begged the 
	holy man to explain the meaning of his dealings with human beings.
	"' In regard to the poor man who recieved us so hospitably,' replied
	the prophet, ' it was decreed that his wife was to die that night,
	but in reward for his goodness God took the cow instead of the wife.
	I repaired the wall of the rich man because a chest of gold was
	concealed near the place, and if the miser had repaired the wall
	himself he would have discovered the treasure. Say not therefore
	to the Lord: What doest thou? But say in thy heart: Must not the
	Lord of all the earth do right?

    My friend's mother was baptised at the age of twelve. She had been
    going to Sunday school for some years and had her whole Christian life
    before her. She was eager to please God.
    
    When she was thirteen, her mother became very ill. Theresa prayed
    constantly that her mother would get better and was confident that,
    because she had asked God, he would spare her mother. 
    When her mother died, Theresa was heart-broken. She told me how she
    rushed to her room and tore down all the crosses and religious
    pictures. She swore she would never believe in God again and grew up
    without Him.
    Throughout her lonely teenage years, her first disasterous marriage,
    the death of her first baby at 9 months old, a messy divorce and an
    unhappy second marriage to an alcoholic. I was 10 when she went back to
    the church with her two daughters. Her husband took much longer to be
    convinced. Things didn't get better overnight of course, but she now
    has a God on Whom she can rely for support. 
    
    
    My own life hasn't exactly been a bed of roses so far. My father is an
    atheist with a very short temper and I was terrified of him as a child.
    He did his utmost to ruin every single Christmas - I remember when I
    was about 8 and my brother 7, he woke up on Christmas morning in a bad
    mood and told us we weren't to have our Christmas presents because they
    just made us greedy. The presents were under the tree and we sat by the
    tree, too scared to cry, while my mother argued with him in the
    kitchen. It ended with him slamming out of the house and my mother,
    furious but victorious, telling us that we COULD have them and that
    no other children deserved them more! I could tell you a story about
    every Christmas! He hated summer holidays too, but that's another
    story. When he wasn't in a mood, he could be such a loving father, but
    he seemed to get into tempers which completely altered him.
    
    When I was nine, my mother told me that I was going to have a baby
    brother or sister. I was thrilled! I hoped and hoped it would be a
    sister because I was at the age when my brother was just a horrible
    little pest! Unfortunately, my mother was ill with high blood pressure
    for a lot of the pregnancy and was in hospital. After one disasterous
    attempt at letting my father look after us, my maternal grandparents
    had us to stay until the baby was born. IT WAS A SISTER!!! Right from
    the start, we were very close. Next door used to say that I was her
    second mother. We shared a room and, if she had a bad dream or was ill
    or wanted to go to the toilet, it was me that saw to her. She had a
    weak stomach as a baby and needed a lot of care and attention. 
    This meant that I didn't have much attention myself. I'd been
    desperately unhappy because my mum was so ill when she was pregnant
    and, looking for the attention I needed, I went to a much older male
    relative. I was sexually abused by that man for the next 5 years. I
    don't remember much about it and I can't even remember how it started.
    For a long time it was buried and I suffered a great deal of mental
    stress without knowing why. I tried suicide twice, once when I was 10
    and again when I was 12. Obviously I failed! They thought I was jealous of 
    my lovely little sister - nothing could be further from the truth. I
    had behaviour problems and eventually was assigned to a social worker.
    When I was 14 I was baptised. We had stopped going to this man's home
    because my paternal grandmother died and we didn't visit so much any
    more. So although I was upset that she'd died, it meant that she didn't
    have to suffer any more (she had cancer) and I was no longer abused.
    I was 19 before I realised what was wrong in my life. The man had died
    the year before (a blessed relief - I didn't feel safe until that day).
    There was a great deal of publicity about abuse cases and I suddenly 
    identified with so many of the stories. 
    I went to a counsellor for a year and firstly admitted what had happened 
    (a major step) then told my mother (another major step). At first Mum 
    couldn't believe it, but she realised that it must be true.
    
    My parents went through a very bad patch when I was 20. My father has
    had a string of affairs throughout his marriage, unknown to my mother,
    and he finally admitted to one. He moved out with the girl (SHE WAS MY
    AGE!!!) but was eventually thrown out and my mother took him back.
    Twice. I learned about true love and forgiveness from my mother.
    I was 22 when Ros in .11 died. 
    
    
    What I really am trying to explain in a rather muddled way is that God
    doesn't send these disasters to us. They are often attacks from the
    Devil and I've noticed that the new Christian is likely to be snowed
    under with them. Theresa had just been baptised when her mother died. I
    gave my life to God when I was 9 - the abuse started very soon after.
    Once he starts, he really keeps up the pressure. Have you ever noticed
    that everything seems to happen at once? A problem or crisis that you might
    have been able to cope with on its own becomes one of a series which
    soon threaten to overwhelm us.
    
    Remember Mary? Poor kid. She was probably 14 or 15 when an angel told
    her that God had specially chosen her to be the mother of the Messiah.
    That was just the BEGINNING of her problems!
    I don't doubt that she was very frightened when she thought of what
    Joseph, a very righteous man, would think. She knew that she risked
    dishonour and disgrace. SHE didn't know that God would tell Joseph too. 
    Then she had the journey, heavily pregnant, to Bethlehem. When they
    eventually got there, exhausted, they had to sleep in a stable. The
    baby was born and all she had to put Him in was a manger. I'm sure the
    mothers among us will know how that felt.
    She had the visit from the shepherds and kings - wonder how she felt about 
    that? 
    Then she was told that soldiers were coming to kill the baby and had to
    escape to Egypt. She must have wondered what on earth it would be like
    if God HADN'T blessed her above all women.
    
    I believe these things test us. We're no use to the world if everything in 
    the garden is rosy and we sit like contented cabbages waiting for the 
    hereafter. Times of suffering help us to be strong, to rely on God and 
    build our characters. I once heard that a beautiful sunset is not possible 
    without clouds to turn pink or silver.
     How do we spread the word of God? The best way I believe is through our 
    actions and experiences.
    Those who have experienced tragedy in their lives are best equipped to
    help someone going through a similar tragedy because they can relate to
    it. They know what that person is going through.
    
    It is through God that we obtain the strength to face whatever comes
    our way.                     

    Hi Ann,
    
    I see lots of great replies from caring folks here.  I can feel the
    frustration and sadness in your voice as you talk about your friend. 
    It's so hard to watch a friend suffer in this way.  And especially when
    you know that Christ is the answer to their struggles...and yet they
    won't accept Him as their solution.
    
    And you know my testimony, too, about losing my father at an early age,
    about being raped, about my rebellion and sin and resulting other
    garbage that I got myself into.  One of the things I felt most was that
    IF there was a God (and I knew deep in my heart that He was there)...
    WHY did He allow these things to happen to me?
    
    It's an age-old question...the scripture and the Spirit of God do
    reveal answers.  You might try to actively love your friend, as Nancy
    suggested.  You probably are already taking authority over the
    spiritual realm which is trying to destroy her, as well as asking our
    Father to heal her and fill her with His Spirit and His peace/joy/
    comfort.
    
    I would also recommend Dr. Dobson's recent book release "When God
    Doesn't Make Sense"...I think you'll find it comforting, as well as
    instructional.
    
    And, as one who's had a friend in the psych ward due to repeated
    suicide attempts, I have a sense of what you may be feeling right now. 
    God is big enough to take care of her and you during this time.  Do
    cast all your cares on Him, for He cares for you.
    
    Hugs,
    
    -greta
    
    p.s. I don't see any conclusive Scripture that indicates suicide is the
    ultimate sin.  Certainly, I believe it is not God's will for us.  But I
    believe that the blaspheming of the Holy Spirit is the only thing that
    truly separates us from Christ.

    Dr. Dobson's new book, "When God Doesn't Make Sense" is an excellent
    suggestion.  Another is "When Bad Things Happen to Good People",
    written by Kushner(sp?), that comes from a little different
    perspective, since the author is a Jewish Rabbi.  Both are excellent
    books, but Dobson's has some great instructions specifically for
    Christians, while the other applies to all who believe in God.
    
    In His Love,
    
    Daryl

    I'm currently reading "Harvest", which is the biography of the Calvary
    Chapel movement.  

    
    Hi all, my friend got out and we had her over our house Sunday night
    we had a late Christmas with her and we all had a great time.
    I am sad to say she has gone back in Monday night. 
    
    Seems like it will take awhile.
    
    Ann
    
    

    
    The great "why?" questions will not be answered in most cases, I am
    convinced - until! we see Him!
    
    I might suggest as a tool of ministry that anyone that is suffering
    today or has friends suffering would do well to purchase (or give as a
    gift) Dobson's latest book, "When God Doesn't Make Sense".  It
    addresses the subject of suffering well, and in one volume too.
    
    jeff

	Does anyone know if Dr. Dobson's book is available on
	audio cassette ?

	Karen

    Karen,
    
    Re: -2 I have seen this book on tape in the Bookstore in Atlanta.
    
    Sasha

	Thanks, Sasha!

	I'll have to get over to my local store and get a copy!

	Karen

 Another way of looking at the problem of human suffering is to ask oneself

 Has anyone suffered as God has suffered ?

 Not long after He created man it is recorded that God 
 "repented" that he had made man and sent the Flood to destroy him.
  (Noah excepted).

 Here's another : what did Jesus Christ suffer for us?
 Can all the grief of humankind down through the ages compare to His agony?
 
 The grief ledger (imo) seems to be weighted heavier on God rather than man.

 "If we suffer with Him we will reign with Him".

    .23
    
    Hank, not to create a discussion, but I think of the Mother of John
    Wayne Gacy or Ted Bundy felt remorse at having *created* the monsters
    that murdered innocent folks.  I also believe they loved them inspite
    of the atrocities.  And whilst Bundy's execution did not bring back the
    women he murdered, it was most certainly JUST that he was executed.
    
    Human suffering can parallel the heartaches and sufferings of our God. 
    Perhaps because he's bigger then us, he feels more, seems to be a bit
    shallow in my opinion.
    
    Yes, I believe God's love is more perfect and abundant, then human
    love, but I don't believe our sufferings are *less* then His have
    been...just on larger magnitude.  We weep over one, he weeps over
    millions.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

  Hi Nancy,

  My motive was simply to look at this problem (human suffering) from
  Our Father's point of view. We probably loose sight of it because He
  dosn't do a lot of complaining about His own grieving.

  Part of the rebellion of fallen humankind is murmuring and complaining 
  (I'm no exception) and it comes naturally to all of us. I just thought
  another perspective would help someone.

  In fact, Jesus asked "why" from the cross (why hast thou forsaken me?).
  (He was made sin who knew no sin). To ask why then seems to me not to
  be the sin, but the resultant bitterness and questioning of the character 
  of Our Father is where we run amuck.

  Yes, I agree, He still loves us in spite of everything.

       
                         Hank

    
    Why is it when you pray for people and instead of getting better
    they seem to get worse ?
    
    I know someone that is getting into the wrong group of people to
    hang around with and he keeps getting deeper and deeper in to
    trouble. 
    
    Ann
    
    
    

Hi Ann,

Sometimes people only see 'trouble' when it is God trying to warn them they 
need to change direction.  They want to avoid the consequences without 
changing their behaviour.  Of course, this isn't always the case by any 
means, but your note had the suggestion of a hint this way :

�    I know someone that is getting into the wrong group of people to
�    hang around with and he keeps getting deeper and deeper in to
�    trouble. 

If God took him away from those people, it would take away his free will,
and he'd just be likely to mix with the same type of people again.  If he
associated the 'trouble' he didn't want, with the type of behaviour, and
thus changed his behaviour (and companions), it would show his heart
responding to what God was teaching him..... maybe - I can only guess, not
knowing the people or precise circumstances, and it wouldn't be right to do
any more than that here! 

The significance of this can be seen when Jesus warned a man He healed to
stop sinning (eg John 5:14), or saw forgiveness of sin as the greater thing
they could ask Him for (eg Matthew 9:2). 

						God bless
								Andrew 

Ann,
  I also think that we (including me) don't have the full scoop on the
reason, power, or function of prayer.  From our perspective, we pray for what
we think certainly must be good: the releif from pain, suffering, trouble,
whatever.
  I stood in a prayer circle last Sunday morning when my friend prayed for
hurt for someone he loved (part of his family).  He was to the point of
desperation for his family member's disregard for the Lord that he was 
praying the prayer of "whatever it takes, Lord."  Frankly, I was a bit 
surprised by this line of prayer.  I know the person praying well enough
that no ounce of bitterness or hatred is in him as he prayed this for his
cousin.
  I'm still not comfortable with my friend's prayer; I'm more comfortable with 
saying "whatever it takes" because I can distance myself from whatever 
"whatever" means - and can reserve complaint and questioning when it means
suffering or trouble in the temporal realm.  But if I truly meant "whatever"
I might need to be prepared for "whatever" and not always understand the
why and how God accomplishes His will.  It very often does not seem fair, 
or seem proper.  In these cases, I ask for a better perspective.  But
sometimes, the cloud of mystery is too thick.

Mark

    
    I think it's sad as I know this person doesn't know God and probably
    wouldn't want to listen. 
    His mother is doing all she can to help him, he seems to be giving
    up. He was such a sweet child. What happens when they reach 13 ?
    
    
    Ann
    
    
    
    

    
    Dear Ann,
    
    It does sound sad.  But remember, God does the calling.  We should not
    fret about what is not in our capacity to control.  This doesn't
    preclude kindness, sympathy and the rest, of course.
    
    jeff

Hi Ann,

�    I think it's sad as I know this person doesn't know God and probably
�    wouldn't want to listen. 

			- Yet that is his greatest need on earth...

�    His mother is doing all she can to help him, he seems to be giving
�    up. He was such a sweet child. What happens when they reach 13 ?

God does arrange 'special' care for children (Matthew 18:10).  But there 
cames an age of accountability (comparable to Adam and Eve reaching the 
day they were tempted), when we need to apply what God hes been teaching us 
subconciously.  To choose to reject the evil and choose the good; to 
listen to God's voice and respond, at some level.  Often not necessarily
very evident outwardly, but each heart response of acceptance or rebellion 
brings its own fruit in later years.  Sometimes a rebellious impulse can 
even result in a 'repentance' reaction in the same heart, which can bring 
healing later...

By the time children reach 13, they are likely to be expressing usually 
expressing a lot of values absorbed from many sources outside the home - 
from their peers, the media, neighbours, etc, and their choice of character 
may have given things precedence which are seen as undesirable by those who 
care for them.

But then, Ann, even all this is just saying it's original sin, liable to 
come out increasingly...

But prayer is effective here.  We'll be praying.

							God bless
								Andrew

    
    What do you do when a person seems to like the Pity Party that they
    are in ?
    
    Will a person who is trying to face the hurts when they were a 
    child and the Dr's are trying to get that out of them, will that
    person act like a child ? 
    
    
    Ann
    
    

    .32
    
    Ann dearest,
    
    What I'm about to say may sound cruel to you, but *do* nothing.  The
    individual must not be coddled, coyed or protected.  Tough love is
    tough... and there just isn't anything *we* can do except let go and
    let God.  I know from experience how painful it is to let go....  I
    also learned through the pain, tears and agony of letting go came
    redemption... Trust God.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy

    And be sure that what you call a "pity party" is not just your
    impatience with their progress.
    
    I've some experience in this area.  I don't think anyone has accused me
    and Elaine of falling into this mindset (at least I hope not).  But I have
    heard others use similar language about a friend who is not doing too
    well with her grief (her son committed suicide last summer).
    
    I have to say simply that as a friend we should give our time and
    sympathy to another who is struggling with serious emotional problems. 
    If we believe they are wallowing in self-pity we should pray for them
    and be led by the Spirit as we deal with them.  Maybe there will be a
    right time to help them realize what is happening to them.  Maybe we
    really aren't as astute as we would like to be in judging such complex
    situations and should generally keep our mouths shut.  Being sensitive
    to them and noticing and controlling our own response probably should
    be our first priority.
    
    jeff

I agree with what Jeff has to say, and add a note from my wife, Joy, who
said that she used to be impatient with people who were ill, thinking
that they were milking it after a time in which she felt they ought to
just get up and get on with life.  Last April, Joy was very ill with viral
pneumonia which laid her out for 5 weeks and weeks of recovery after that.
She's a whole lot more patient when someone hasn't "progressed" as fast
as *she* thinks they ought to have.

After I listened to her tesitmony (confession really), I thought to myself,
"I think I want to learn this lesson the easy way, and not like Joy learned
it."   :-)   We need to try and see people from their perspectives 
rather than apply our perspectives to their conditions, contexts, and 
circumstances.

Mark

(Good note, Jeff.)

Jeff,

I think what you wrote is also very important for us to remember.  I've
been on both sides of the fence.  I've been impatient with people who seem 
to be content, indeed even desiring, to stay in a state of "Oh, poor pitiful 
me, the world has been cruel and I deserve all the pity anyone can give me,
and everybody should feel guilty about how badly I've been treated by the
world.  Sometimes, perhaps, that impatience has even been justified but I'm
not sure about that.  And I've known those feelings of grief and "Why me?" 
that can impact us again and again.  I've also known comfort and patience, 
and hopefully have shown both to people struggling with difficult circumstances
and sadness.  An excellent book is "Listening to Others" by Margaret H..... 
(I've forgotten her last name - something like Huggenot.)

Leslie

    Ann, yes they do revert to childishness often. Some will even retire to
    bed and refuse to get up - it's "safe" and "warm", you see. At one
    point my friend Rosalind even had to be bathed and spoon-fed. I know
    it's terrible and frustrating for you - I wanted to shake Rosalind
    because I couldn't get through to her - but your friend is with doctors
    who are helping through all this. To mend the past, your friend will
    need to go back to it to deal with all her hidden feelings of
    resentment, fear and anger. That means that she must be ALLOWED to
    examine those feelings, and to cry over the cause of them because, for
    whatever reason, she couldn't do it at the time. Only when she's done
    that can she feel better about what has happened to her.
    
    All you can do is to be there for her. That's what she needs more than 
    anything - a strong friend that she can rely on. Don't feel guilty
    about your frustration because almost everyone in this situation feels
    the same way. It's a sign that you care.
                                                     

    
    What if the person seems to be playing games to get attention ?
    
    I wondered also if a person is a Christian going through this
    and then turned against God and they killed themselves would
    God over look this? 
    
    I know in the Ten Commandments it says we aren't to kill
    and this means ourselves also..
    
    Ann
    
    

    Attention-grabbing is normal, too. Especially if there has been a lack
    of attention in the person's past. 
                                                                  
    Your friend is very depressed to the point where she is ill. Our God is
    a loving and merciful Father and His understanding and mercy is
    infinate. I believe that Rosalind is now with God, despite doing
    exactly that - she is forgiven. I believe that your friend would be 
    forgiven and accepted by God also.
     
    Please don't think, because Rosalind actually killed herself, that
    it is a hopeless case and that your friend will do the same. There is a
    difference. Your friend is with doctors who understand her illness and
    are helping her. We had very little medical help with Rosalind and we
    really didn't know how to cope at the time. Her doctor actually
    challenged her to go ahead and kill herself, just stop bothering him.
    This, I now understand, is something that you never, never say to a
    potential suicide.                                               
    
    Every day is an achievement, so keep hanging on. 
                                      

    
    My friend has tryed 
    
    

    Ann,
    
    Your friend is in a place inside herself where you can't go and that
    she can't leave - yet. Hopefully with the help of the doctors and God, 
    she will. But I emphasize the word "can't." Unless you're in that place, 
    that trapped, dark, suffocating place, filled with self-hatred, the 
    *can't* doesn't make sense. But she can't see anything else. It's 
    frustrating for you - and for her. I know it's already been said, but 
    your caring and love and prayers for her are the gift you can give
    her right now. I know you're afraid of losing her, but when it comes to
    the choices of others, we don't ever really have any control. 
    
    My prayers are with you both.
    
    Love,
    
    Rebecca  

    
    My friend is being released today. She had a couple of 24 hour
    leaves. I spent most of Saturday with her. 
    She is to go back to work next Monday 1/2 days at first and then
    get back to full days.
    
    She was in good spirits Saturday. 
    
    Continue to pray for her.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Ann