Conference yukon::christian_v7

    .0, et.al.
    
    While I agree that there are spirits not of God that can cause
    depression, and other symptoms of spiritual disarray, I do not believe
    that this is the case every single time.
    
    In order to determine if there is spiritual warfare going on with this
    man, you would need someone in whom you have confidence to discern the
    spirits.  
    
    The step of having him checked physically is one way to determine
    spiritual warfare as well.  If the doctor cannot pinpoint a physical
    problem, but determines it is mental/emotional, then you have a
    possibility of spiritual battle.
    
    However, my experience says, that unless you get to the core issue or
    sin in the man's life for confession and restoration, the spiritual battle
    will continue with false indications of reprieval.
    
    I have a friend who exhibits the same symptoms as .0.  He is a deacon
    in my church, and he is single.  When he is not in his depressed mood,
    he is very open about his depression.  One of the things he said to me
    is that he's too inward focused.  There's too much of self in his
    spiritual life.  He needs to be more focused on others.  And this is a
    man whose ministry is focusing on others.
    
    He's 40 years old, a very handsome man, but unmarried and unfulfilled. 
    He had goals, dreams, aspirations, and at 40 he's not realized any of
    those and he became rather bitter against God, blaming Him for his own
    life's choices.
    
    Men can sometimes feel like failures when they don't perform to their
    *own* standards.  They can get depressed, bitter and harbor resentment
    towards God for not making their circumstances different, so that they
    could have succeeded in their goals.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy
    
    

Demons exist.  Deliverance exists.  The power of the name of Jesus is indeed
remarkable, and I have seen it at work setting people free.

But let's not go looking for a demon behind every bush.  There could indeed be
demonic influence in this case, but we have no grounds to jump to that
conclusion.  And to START there, with someone who may not even believe that
such a thing as a demon exists, can very well do more harm than good.

Paul

    Also, do not be overly convinced by volume of words as to believe that
    the general recommendation of the participants of the conference is
    that you start "casting out spirits".  From my experience with those in
    the conference, most of the CHRISTIAN noters (and most Christians)
    would recommend that you eliminate any *physical* cause of depression
    before considering it to be a spiritual problem.
    
    If it is indeed a spiritual problem, a competent Christian counsellor
    (note:  I am *not* saying psychologist) -- perhaps, but not limitted
    to, a pastor -- would be a good thing to check out.
    
    Mark L.

    
    I would like to see these replies moved to another topic because I dont
    believe they are pertinent to the base note.
    
    Thanks,
    
    Dan

	Greg, a couple of questions about physical demons. Do you think it was
God or the devil that brought doctors along to the point they are at now with
healing? My guess is God. With the medicines they have today that I feel God
actually showed us how to make, that by using these medicines we are actually
allowing God to heal us. Yes, I agree that one needs spiritual guidance with
anything. Only He is going to cure us. But I do feel that medicines are from
Him, and that with those medicines we are going through Him.



Glen

    .6
    
    I agree with what you have written.
    
    Nancy

    
    Greg,
    
     I dont think anyone is denouncing the fact that demons exist. The
    problem I have is that this note was started by insinuating that a
    person may have a demon, when in reality it may be purely a physical
    problem.  You dont need to "cast out" a demon when someone has a
    headache.  We've all been down this road before, and as it has already
    been pointed out, we dont have to look for a demon around every bush. 
    
    
    Dan

Greg, as I said, I very much understand and agree that spiritual causes for
this could exist.  I've personally participated in and experienced
deliverances, I'm not running from the idea that demons exist.  I simply
suggested that as of yet there are no grounds to suspect demonization.

Yet how did I know that your response would be exactly what it was: an
accusatory "You don't really believe."  Is it really necessary for you to dive
into "Everyone else here doesn't really know how to be a Christian, let me tell
you how" as often as you do?

Every book I've read on spiritual warfare warns against the temptation to start
seeing demonic causes for every ailment, affirms that many cases that may
resemble demonic affliction result from other causes, and affirms that other
options should generally be explored before suggesting the possibility of
demonization.  Why must that suggestion result in your telling us we're doing
it all wrong?

Paul

But I AGREE with you, Greg.  I AGREE that there could be demonic influence in
this case.  I AGREE that as christians we are empowered to set people free from
such oppression.  I DISAGREE that everything bad that happens to us is of
demonic origin and that we should start with anyone who is depressed by trying
to cast out demons.

Based on that much agreement, why do you insist on claiming that I am not
believing God's Word?  You have no basis to do so.

Paul

    
    You havn't been reading or listening Greg. We belive God's word, I
    simply will not accept that because someone has a headache that it is a
    demon.  You seem to look for these things.  I find great comfort in
    that the demons have NO CLAIM over me because I am washed in the blood
    of Jesus! Greater is he that is IN me than he that is in the world!
    Jesus lives in me, demons have no claim whatsoever!
    
    Dan

 I don't believe anyone is asking you not to believe God's Word.  The
 statement that not every ailment has a demonic cause certainly doesn't
 discount the validity of God's Word.




 Jim

 Amen, Dan..




 Jim

    	Greg,
    			I refuse to accept any excuses for not believing
    	God's Word, - and I will continue to believe Him regardless of 
    	what other's may say.  I simply stated what I believe.  There
    	is No sense in trying to convince me otherwise, -so please don't
    	bother to try, because regarding this matter, I will not change.
    	My heart is resolute to believe God.  Its that simple.
    
    								Nancy
    

	Greg, I know you truly believe as you do, and that's fine. It can be
hard to believe in something that is different from the rest of the crowd. If
it came down to the reasons behind your beliefs, then God couldn't be anything
else but proud of you, as you are strong in your convictions. There is one
thing I would like to ask. Have you talked with God about the "every case"
being demon related? Has He shown you that this is the case? If so, nuff said.
It would be clear then why you believe the way you do. 

	Oh, Greg, could you also answer the thing about God & medicine if you
get a chance?

	To the other people who aren't entirely happy with perceiving (as he 
hasn't said one way or the other) that Greg feels you're not Christian because 
you don't believe the way he does, don't let it bother you so much. You are
strong in your convictions as well. Funny though when the shoe is on the other
foot (people possibly calling you non-Christians) you seem to react in one
fashion but think nothing of it when you say the same about someone else.




Glen

    >To the other people who aren't entirely happy with perceiving
    >(as he hasn't said one way or the other) that Greg feels you're not 
    >Christian because you don't believe the way he does, 
    
    Has Greg said this?  Where?  I didn't see it.
    
    Nancy

    .24
    
    It wasn't sarcasm, it was sincere.  I believe everyone of us could have
    written that paragraph with as much conviction as you have.
    
    The point being, that we *all* have our beliefs that are unchangeable. 
    Your declaration was merely a tactic to put down the rest of the
    participants in this string as anti-Biblical.  It doesn't go over too
    well.
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy
    

Just to keep the record clear, Glen, I know that there are several people who
you are referring to.  But for myself, in none of our interactions have I ever
said or implied that you weren't a Christian.  I've disagreed sharply with you
on occasion, but I've tried to always keep my disagreement to what you said,
not to you.

If I've failed in that, then I apologize.

Paul

    RE: .-1
    
    Missing IMHO.

 Greg, please give us your reading of .17 by Dan Yackel.





 Jim

    Re: Note 320.31 by YIELD::GRIFFIS
    
>   	It certainly was not
>   	my idea to move my replies over into a separate topic!
    
    Greg,
    
    You have the right to reword your replies to keep them clearly onto the
    subject of depression and then place copies in the depression topic.
    
    I think the moderators do a reasonable job moving tangents into new
    topics, but if you think otherwise just move some of your text back
    again; after ensuring that it answers the base note...
    
    James

    Another thing you could do is to provide a pointer in the original
    topic (if the moderators did not) that points to what you think to be a
    related topic which may contain an answer.
    
    James

    Re: Note 320.34 by YIELD::GRIFFIS
    
>   	I do not know who did that, but I think it was pretty rude. 
    
    I believe that I should submit to moderator direction in order to make
    reading the conference easier for those who do so.  I am not insulted
    when a moderator moves my notes - it's the job I've let them have by
    participating in this forum...

>    RE: .-1
>    
>    Missing IMHO.

    Let's try and make it clear:
    
    ".-1" refers to the previous note (.29).
    
    "Missing IMHO."  A reminder that the previous note represented the
    opinion of a particular noter.
    
    Re: note .1,
    No need to be concerned.  It wasn't any of your notes.  It was a note
    moved back to the original topic because it was wholly concerned with
    that and not this topic.
    
    Mark L.

    re: .4
    
    Hi Greg,
    
      Was that me you're talking about???
    
      Just wondering...
    
                                           Tony

    Re: Note 320.38 by YIELD::GRIFFIS
    
>   			Have you seen the renaming of note 308.?
>   		Its not exactly the epitome of courtesy.
    
    I've read 316.7 which advises of the move, and I find it adequately
    courteous.  Here it is;
    
    >  replies .7-15 have been moved to topic 320 "Demons".
    > Jim Co mod (who will move back notes that shouldn't have been moved :-}
    
    Courtesy is, like beauty, *always* in the eye of the beholder.
    
    James

    Greg,
    
    re: .40, please see 2.* and note, "MODERATOR DECISIONS ARE FINAL". 
    Also, please note 2.4 (I believe) which outlines the only acceptable
    procedure for addressing perceived offenses.
    
    Steve (co-participant, not a mod....)
    

    Re: Note 320.40 by YIELD::GRIFFIS
    
>   	The movement of my note without even talking
>   	to me was wrong.
    
    I've just gone back and read selected portions of topic 2 to make sure
    I'm in the right conference.  The moderators _are_ permitted to move your
    notes without talking to you.  Of course, you _are_ permitted to reword
    your reply and post it back, just like I suggested.
    
    Also, since you feel you have been offended, please read note 2.3 which
    indicates the resolution method that I believe most of the conference
    participants feel you should take.
    
    James

 I will confess, that in moving the notes, I neglected to start the topic
 prior to moving the notes, thus Greg's initial response to the depression
 string appears as the base note.  If time permits, later this evening I
 will attempt to tidy things up a bit.


 The notes were moved as it was obvoious that the topic was digressing from
 the base subject of depression.

 Jim Co Mod.

    Greg, 
    
    I have sent you mail offline to discuss this situation.
    
    Nancy

    Just to try to remove one point of confusion in here:
    
    The renaming of note 308 was not the action of a moderator.  Nor, as
    far as I am aware, was any moderator contacted requesting a change of
    title after the renaming.  The first "complaint" about the title was
    that of a few notes back.  Had there been such a request to modify the
    title from what it current reads, I fully expect it would have been
    honored.
    
    Mark Lovik co-mod

    Re: Note 320.45 by YIELD::GRIFFIS
    
    I'm almost thinking I shouldn't continue this discussion but rather
    leave it to the moderators.
    
    But, to summarise my position, courtesy is always determined by the
    recipient, and is not an objective thing.  I believe that the
    moderators have been sufficiently courteous.  You believe that they
    haven't been.  Fine.  We disagree.  Let's leave that issue as it is
    then.
    
    What do you mean by the phrase "a note that has been named for Jesus?"
    
    James

    Re: Note 320.49 by YIELD::GRIFFIS
    
    What is an "altar ministry" and why would you stand at it?
    
>   	People should have just left it alone,
>   	without expressing their opinions and doubts on what I had
>   	to say about it, because the original notes were right on
>   	the button.                      
    
    Greg, perhaps you should have just left it alone, without expressing
    your opinions and doubts on what they had to say about it, because what
    they said was right on the button?
    
    Are you more right than they?
    Are they more right than you?
    
    This is why I am reading both sides!  I want to know!
    
    James

    
    To declare that it is a demon that needs casting out is not good sound
    advice.   It is in the realm of possibilities, but from where you sit
    you have no way of knowing. Therefore my problem is not with your
    ascertation itself, but with your quick determination of said demon.
    You then continue to ascert that "true faith" is absent from those who
    disagree with you.
    
    Dan

    Greg,
    
    
      >People should have just left it alone,
      > without expressing their opinions and doubts on what I had
      > to say about it, because the original notes were right on
      > the button.
    
    
     Excuse me... but why should we take what you say as Gospel truth?
     Do you have an "in" with God that none of us here have?
    
     You know Greg, when I first read the original note I knew exactly what
    your response would be. I wonder where I got that thought????
    
    Dan

| <<< Note 320.42 by POWDML::SMCCONNELL "Next year, in JERUSALEM!" >>>



| re: .40, please see 2.* and note, "MODERATOR DECISIONS ARE FINAL".

	Steve, just because the mods decisions are final does not mean that the
decision is a fair one. 



Glen

	Nancy, please read through the early part of this string. You will see
who has or who hasn't thought that Greg was implying that they were not
Christians. The key word here Nancy is implying. If you would also notice in my
note I had said Greg never said one way or the other.

	Paul, you have nothing to apologize for. Yes, we have had
disagreements, but everyone has those. :-)  The statement that was
made had nothing to do with you. But thanks enough for caring. It
really does mean a lot. :-)



Glen

    
    
  >                  The Word of God says to cast out the spirit, anoint
  >  with oil, and lay hands on the sick.  I do not agree with treating
  >  the flesh in order to cure an infirmity of the spirit.  It just
  >  totally contradicts the Word.
    
    
     I totally agree with this statment as it stands. 
    
    >I do not agree with treating the flesh in order to cure an infirmity
    >of the spirit. 
    
    Herein lies the disagreement, you have concluded that the infirmity as
    stated in the original basenote was NOT physical but atomaticaliy a
    spiritual issue.  If in fact it was a spiritual problem then I am in
    agreement with you.  Do you see now Greg, that no one is disagreeing
    with you on spiritual matters, but only on whether it is a spiritual
    matter from the get go.
    
    Dan

    I've never read about the "spirit of depression" and the "spirit of
    xxxxxxxxx" (I don't recall the other that you mentioned in the
    now-deleted-by-the-author basenote), and I'm sure there are plenty more
    "spirit of <whateverthings> that you could bring up.  It appears to me
    that you are "believing God" for some things that His Word has nothing
    to say about.  I don't know (but I might be able to guess) where you
    got this from, but it definately was not from the Word of God.  To
    many, this can be a classic opportunity for deception.
    
    Mark L.

>    Try looking at Matthew, Mark, Luke and John

    Perhaps you could assist us by posting the text that speaks of the
    "spirit of depression".
    
    Mark

>   			Have you seen the renaming of note 308.?
>   		Its not exactly the epitome of courtesy.

As the basenote writer of 308.0, I had the privileges to rename the note;
the moderators were not responsible for renaming that note.  

After renaming the note to reflect the subject contained in most of its 
replies, I moved my base note (which had little to do with the tangent 
on which it was taken) to 315.1 in which I explained:

>>Since the majority of 308 (the former home for this note) was ratholed,
>>I thought it easier to move my base note here and rename 308.

As for courtesy, I agree with James Cameron, it being in the eye of the
beholder.  I didn't particulary care for ratholing a subject I wanted
to discuss and might have considered that discourteous, also.

Mark

    Greg,
    
    What is the basis of this "real faith"?
    
    Mark
    
    p.s.  I'm still waiting for the Scriptures on the "spirit of
          depression", and if you want to be generous, for the other
          "spirit of xxxxxx" that you mentioned.

    
    Greg,
    
      We are doubting you, not God's Word.
    
    Dan

Greg, how come Jesus didn't cast the demon of blindness out of Bartimaeus?

How come Jesus didn't cast the demon of infirmity out of the man at the pool?

How come Peter and John didn't cast the demon of lameness out of the man on the
temple steps?

Could it just possibly be that not everything is caused by demons?

Nah, that couldn't be it.


Why is it that we have to keep repeating that we AGREE that demonization COULD
be the cause of the affliction of depression in this case, but that as of yet
we've seen no evidence - and you've offered none - that this IS the case?

You insist on making it into an issue that you are believing God and no one else
is.  Is it your Biblical position that EVERYTHING is caused by demons?  I
certainly don't believe that can be supported biblically.  And if that's not
your position, on what basis do you insist that demonization is the cause in
this case?  You haven't once given a reason why you believe that, you just keep
insisting that you're right, and that anyone who questions you is questioning
God.

Until you either try to claim that the Bible teaches that all infirmities are
caused by demons, or tell us why you are so convinced that demonization is the
cause in this case, we're just going to run in circles.

Paul

	Repent! The end is near!

    Greg,
    
    I happen to also agree with what you have written in .62.
    
    I happen to also agree that there are times God works through Doctors
    to aid us.
    
    Now because I go to a Doctor does that mean my faith is small?
    
    Nancy

    
    
        >      "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin"...  Repent!!!
        
         YOu'll have tp explain yourself here Greg! 
    
          Are you quoting scripture ??? What am I to repent of???

    Greg,
    
    From what you've written then, I assume that you never see a doctor,
    take a pill, or seek medical advice, for yourself or your family.
    
    Mark

    
    Here is the CONTEXT of the verse you have used.
    
    
    Romans 14
     19  Let us therefore follow after the things which make for peace, and
         things wherewith one may edify another.
     20  For meat destroy not the work of God. All things indeed are pure;
         but it is evil for that man who eateth with offence.
     21  It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing
         whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
     22  Hast thou faith? have it to thyself before God. Happy is he that
         condemneth not himself in that thing which he alloweth.
     23  And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of
         faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.
    
    
      Maybe you should concentrate on verse 19.
                                               

>    	I'd rather see a sermon, than hear one any day...
    
    I guess for me it depends on whether what I'm seeing agrees with what
    I've read in the Word of God.
    
    1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
     
    Mark L.

    Question:  Why do you think Jesus put mud on the blind man to heal him
    from his blindness?  Why do you think the lepers had to bathe in the
    Jordan to be cured from leporacy?  I grant you these were truly
    miracles; but what purpose was there in using earthly elements?   Was
    their ailments from a demon posession?
    
    -Jack

    
    >       I'd rather see a sermon, than hear one any day...
    
    
     I'd rather you understand the Bible and what it has to say, than to
    use it to promote what you have to say.
    
    Dan

Mark 9
 20  And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the
spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
 21  And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him?
And he said, Of a child.
 22  And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to
destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help
us.
 23  Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to
him that believeth.
 24  And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears,
Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
 25  When Jesus saw that the people came running together, he rebuked the
foul spirit, saying unto him, Thou dumb and deaf spirit, I charge thee, come
out of him, and enter no more into him.
 26  And the spirit cried, and rent him sore, and came out of him: and he was
as one dead; insomuch that many said, He is dead.
 27  But Jesus took him by the hand, and lifted him up; and he arose.
 28  And when he was come into the house, his disciples asked him privately,
Why could not we cast him out?
 29  And he said unto them, This kind can come forth by nothing, but by
prayer and fasting.

I provide this text for a couple of reasons. 

(1) Belief is required, in this case on the part of the parent, because 
    the boy could not for himself.

(2) I do not think it is easier to cast out demons than it is to heal. (v. 29)
    Peter said to the lame man, "Silver and gold have I none; but such 
    as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise 
    up and walk."

    Also, this:

John 9:1  And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his
birth.
  2  And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or
his parents, that he was born blind?
  3  Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that
the works of God should be made manifest in him.
  4  I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night
cometh, when no man can work.
  5  As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.
  6  When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the
spittle, and he anointed the eyes of the blind man with the clay,
  7  And said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam, (which is by
interpretation, Sent.) He went his way therefore, and washed, and came seeing.

(1) Belief is required.  What would have happened if the man took off the
    clay and not went to wash as Jesus told him?

(2) Verse 3 shows that NOT EVERY AFFLICTION IS THE RESULT OF SIN OR DEMON
    POSSESSION.

My 2�.

MM

    The point is clear...*some* things that plague us are demonic, *some*
    things are not.  Discernment is required and an imbalanced view towards
    one at the expense of the other is perhaps not the wisest path.
    
    Discernment is also required when entering into debates; such as
    discerning at which point fruit is likely, or at which point it's time
    to shake dust and move on.
    
    "Warn a divisive person once..." etc....
    
    
    Steve

    Moderator Request:

    The moderators would like to request that the participants in this note
    refrain from entering into personal attack.  While there is clear
    disagreement and opportunity to discuss beliefs, please seek to direct
    your responses at the issues, and not at a person.  Perhaps it would be
    a good idea if we were to take a deep breath and give a little thought
    to what we have just typed before hitting the "return" key. 

    "With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one
    another in love;" Ephesians 4:2 
     
   
   
    The moderators of Christian

	Greg, several people have asked you what you do when it comes to
doctors. You have yet to answer anyone who has asked. If your conviction is as
strong as you make it, why won't you answer the question?




Glen

    
    
    Does increased healings and casting out demons equate to increased
    faith?
    
    Dan

    
    >The modus operandi
            of the demon world is to try to find a home, sneak in,
            hide there, and try not to get caught or kicked out,
    
    "Sneak in" ???  Can demons sneek in and reside within the Christian??
    
    Dan

>    			The TRULY great men of faith, however, i.e., 
>    	Smith Wigglesworth, John Graham Lake, for instance, had no use
>    	for doctors whatsoever, and would not go near them.
    
    
    Well, I know one truly great man of faith that disagrees:
    
    "Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you." Colossians 4:14
     
    Mark L.

 Luke was a physician, wasn't he?  






 Jim

    Jim, I guess great minds *do* think alike! :-) :-)

>    	and would not go near them.
    
    "Only Luke is with me...." 2 Timothy 4:11
    
    :-)

     "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is
      begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him
      not." 1 John 5:18

    
    In addition to what Mark said in .95 a Christian who has the Holy
    Spirit dwelling inside cannot co-exist with a demonic spirit.  The
    two are not compatible.
    
    Kent

    Jim, I hope the devil didn't make you do it! :-)

    A question:
    
    From .96
>    		remember Oholiab in the O.T.?  God gave him "a spirit of
>    	wisdom" to be a cunning artificer in the construction of the things
>    	of the temple.  Well... that was a spirit, too!  Was it the Holy
>    	Spirit?  No.  It was a _spirit_.  Where did the angel live?  On
>    	his shoulder?  No... it took up its residence inside of him.
    
    Who ever said it was an "angel"?  I think I sense an extrapolation....
    
    Mark L.

    Oh, must be the "spirt of snarfs" that's got hold of him. :-)
    
    I don't think I'll go looking for that one in the scriptures.... :-)

    
    RE: 99
    
    What I am referring to is this:  A demon cannot enter a human body
    if the Holy Spirit is residing in the same body.
    
     > But, if you are
     > talking about in the flesh or in the soulical realm, well,
     > that is another thing...
    
     Greg could please clarify this for me?
    
     Kent

RE:                     <<< Note 320.104 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>

    
    
       
   . 	Jim.
   . 			Don't get angry.  It was just a counter-snarf.
    
    


   Me? Get angry...no sir!  Right now I have thoughts of a big bowl of the
 best banana pudding I have ever tasted which I am going to devour upon my
 arrival at home later this evening..




 Jim

      Hi Greg,
    
        I have no desire to wade through the many replies.  I just
        want to know...have you replied to .39?
    
        If not...would you?
    
                                                 Thanks,
    
                                                 Tony

    re: .97
    
      Hi,
    
        Just wondering.  If I follow your logic (I think), on what 
        basis can a Christian possibly sin?
    
                                                  Tony

    
          >  GOD HAS NOT GIVEN US A SPIRIT OF FEAR, BUT OF
          >  LOVE AND OF POWER AND OF A SOUND MIND.
                                                        2 Tim. 1:7
     
           Nuts! I wanted to use that one. :-)
    
       Dan

| <<< Note 320.88 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>




| But... lets not leave it there.  All healing belongs to God!!!  

	I agree 100%! All healing does belong to God. God is the one who gives
the doctors the ability to heal. He is the one who deserves the credit.

| At that point, doctors are useful to prove that God did what he said he could 
| do.  

	There is a woman who I know that attends (or used to) St. Johns church
in Worcester once a month. She was a healer and ALWAYS told the people she
healed to see their doctor to verify her cure. I never saw anyone come back
afterwards and call her a fraud, and I was one of the people cured.




Glen

    
    re. 110
        Just wondering.  If I follow your logic (I think), on what
        basis can a Christian possibly sin?
    
    The point I was trying to make was that once you're baptized and filled
    with the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is still apart of you, demonic
    possession cannot take place.  The two are not compatible.
    
    I wish to go off on a tangent in regards to your question.
    
    RE: Greg, thanks for clarifying on what you meant.
    
    Kent
    

    
    re. 110
        Just wondering.  If I follow your logic (I think), on what
        basis can a Christian possibly sin?
    
    The point I was trying to make was that once you're baptized and filled
    with the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit is still apart of you, demonic
    possession cannot take place.  The two are not compatible.
    
    I wish NOT 
    to go off on a tangent in regards to your question.
    
    RE: Greg, thanks for clarifying on what you meant.
    
    Kent
    

    Greg,
    
    I think you give the devil and his minions more credit than they
    deserve.  Many of the things you attribute to the actions of "a spirit
    taking up residence" in a person, I would attribute to the good old
    (well, actually "bad old") fallen human nature.  The "cure" for our
    old nature isn't to "cast out spirits" -- the cure is the cross.
    
    Mark L.

RE:                     <<< Note 320.109 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>

    
       
   . 			Have you ever heard of a Christian that is totally
   . 	discouraged, or suicidal, emotionally unstable?  Well... in such
   . 	an instance, a spirit has taken up residence in the human soul,
    

          I've found myself discouraged at times recently over the fact that
          my 17 year old son has decided that God, the Bible, praying, etc
          are offensive to him..is that discouragement due to a demon taking
          up residence in my soul, or is it the fact that one whom I love
          dearly has rejected (for now) what God has offered him has caused
          me considerable pain? ( I am NOT suicidal by the way).




       Jim

    Wow!  Pastor Cho, Fred Price, who next?  That's pretty much the Faith
    Hall of Shame.  You'll be hardpressed to convince anyone while throwing
    names like that around.  You should read the "Faith" movement topic.

    
    Regarding:
    
    
    >                      The thing to remember is that the devil is the
    >       god of fear and doubt.  O.k.?  Well... what is doubt and fear?
    >        It is the opposite of faith, ( which he hates ).
    
    
    I always thought the fear of God was the beginning of Godly wisdom.
    By using your logic this fear comes from the devil.  Am I mis-
    understanding this?
    
    Kent
    

    Re: Note 320.50 by AUSSIE::CAMERON
    Re: Note 320.49 by YIELD::GRIFFIS
    
    What is an "altar ministry" and why would you stand at it?
    
    James

    Re: Note 320.124 by DEBUG::HUMPHRY
    
    Two definitions of the word fear exist in use.  One is an irrational,
    emotional aspect, and the other is a rational, non-emotional aspect.
    
    I think the "fear of the Lord" in the bible is most often the rational,
    non-emotional type.  A recognition of who God is and an acceptance that
    he does what he likes.  A fear that we can be _proud_ of, were it not
    for the restrictions on _pride_ that we have to live under.
    
    Some other fears are not like this.
    
    James

>    	other than the good Lord who is perfect?  Rather than find
>    	their faults, find their good points, and use it to your
>    	advantage.

    >    	does not terrorize us, we terrorize him...\
    
    BZZT!  Wrong, but thanks for playing.

 
   Greg, how would you define "terrorizing the devil", and how
   would you equate resisting the devil with terrorizing the 
   devil?



    thanks


    Jim

RE:                     <<< Note 320.133 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>

    
       	
   . 		Shining the light of Christ on darkness through God's 
   . 	Word.  As it is written, "for this reason was the Son of God 
   . 	manifested that he might destroy the works of the devil".
    
   

       Great, Greg...I don't have a problem with that.  I would hope that
       the life I lead is indeed a reflection of that light.  I am faced
       with temptation every day (every second?) and by resisting that
       temptation I am resisting the devil.  My continued resistance
       coupled with my growth in the Lord, and that reflection of the light
       will ultimately cause the devil to flee.  Being part of a church that
       is seeing souls won to Christ, that has a strong testimony and that
       is growing seems to keep that temptation around, however.



       I didn't quite equate all of that to terrorism.  



       Jim

    Greg,
    
    
    You have shared with us valuable experience and knowledge on
    encounterings in the spiritual realm. I have learnt much from you and do
    agree with many of those beliefs that you put forth.  
    
    I have the following to say with regards to the response on "Can a born
    again Christian be demonised ? "
    
    Following on the response on .113, my belief is that a born again
    spirit-filled Christian who constantly seek the Lord in all areas of his 
    life cannot be demonised. This is in line with the belief that the
    Lord protects and delivers us from the evil one if we abide by his
    commandments and precepts.
    
    On the other hand a B_A Christian who is capable of sin and does not bring
    that iniquity to light, over time a stronghold will develop and that will 
    allow evil spirit(s) a justified entry into him. Being demonised is not
    necessary like those dramatic occurences of demon manifestations
    portrayed in the movies. The untrained person may not even notice the
    difference between a person that has been demonised from just being him.
    
    
    I may be wrong but currently this is my understanding.
    
    
    God bless us, Jeffrey   
    
     
    
    
    
    
    
     
    
    

>    			You are not disagreeing with me.
>    			You are in disagreeing with God's Word
>    	because the Bible says, "Resist the devil and he shall 'flee'
>    	from you", ( James 4:7 ).  I don't know what game you are 
>    	playing, -but be assured that when you play games against 
>    	what the Word of God says, you will not win because "there
>    	is no wisdom nor counsel against the Lord".
    
       /Greg, is the Devil afraid (or terrorized by ) of you or Jesus Christ?

Mike,
  You'll have to ask him in Mail if you really want an answer.  
Greg has said "bye-bye" to this conference for "a good long break."   
(see Note 303.37)

Mark

      re: .4
    
      Hi,
    
        I'm the person who Greg alluded to in .4.  Because Greg referred
        to this experience in public, I believe I ought do the same.
    
        Now and then I stop by Greg's desk and say hi and talk for a
        couple minutes.  I did this one time and during chatting complained
        of a migraine headache.  Greg, said something to the effect of
        casting out a demon or something like that.  My perspective is
        that my headache never went away and I had that headache for the
        couple of days.
    
        I'll pass this along to Greg (no hard feelings Greg, I truly 
        perceive the need to pass along how I understood the experience
        to be).  And if you want to describe further how you understood 
        the event to be, fine.
                                                                        
                                                  Tony

	Hmmm... we went from walking away without his headache to still having
it. Now I wonder why Greg left.......


Glen

    I spent almost 2 decades growing up around charasmatics.  They mean
    well, but they're awfully excitable and walk over dollars looking for
    dimes.  There's so much more to this life (to borrow a Steven Curtis
    Chapman phrase).  There's so much more to Christianity.  Sure the
    spirits of the underworld exist, but I think it doesn't edify anyone
    but the underworld if we go around looking for them on every corner.
    
    Stick to Jesus Christ and God's Word, the rest will fall into place.

    
    re -1      A BIG AMEN!!!!!!!!!!!!!

      Hi,
    
        I just want to say that I am sure a lot of people have varying
        beliefs (even convictions) on what truth is and it may be so
        important to the person (even if it may end up being error).
    
        I don't know...a lot of the time I figure someone is WAY off the
        path of truth, but it means so much to the person and sometimes
        in my own discernment I kind of know that it wouldn't help a 
        person one bit to tell him the error of his ways.
    
        Just a thought on that beautiful Isaiah verse that speaks of 
        having words _in season_ for the weary ones.  Sometimes silence
        might be all the words someone is ready for - takes discernment
        to know though.
    
        Anyway...I don't think Greg took off because of .139 because I
        never told him I was going to post this reply.  I did e-mail it 
        to him afterwards though.
    
                                                      Tony

-.1

Hold on, Tony, to your hat.

    We agree.  8^o    
               ;-)

	Who would have ever thought that was possible.... :-)


Glen

    >        Who would have ever thought that was possible.... :-)
    
    
    Me.

Tony's differences with me do not extend beyond certain foundational tenets
of Truth.

(And I knew Nancy would.  ;-)  Thanks.)

MM

      Yeah, Mark, but their still foundational, huh???
    
      Say, but we do agree on faith which works by love, don't we?!
    
      Now THAT'S a good starting point!
    
                                     See ya Mark and the Rest of Ya,
    
                                     Tony

RE .142 Mike,

Well, here's one charismatic that tries not to "walk all over dollars look-
ing for dimes".  But, I think we've talked about this before, haven't we
Mike?

Although I would have to agree that most charismatics do hold to the demonology
stuff, I don't (and neither does our "family" of churches).  But, I gave up
a long time ago trying to convince the "converted" that demonology (as it is
currently being taught) is 90% unscriptural.  So I tend to stay out of point-
less conversations like this one.

Rob (just dropping in)

>Although I would have to agree that most charismatics do hold to the demonology
>stuff, I don't (and neither does our "family" of churches).  But, I gave up
>a long time ago trying to convince the "converted" that demonology (as it is
>currently being taught) is 90% unscriptural.  So I tend to stay out of point-
>less conversations like this one.
    
    In my 15+ years with the Assemblies of God, I've encountered (been
    called to help pray over) a confirmed demon-possessed person 5 times.  In 
    the last 3 years since I left AG, I've only encountered 1.  Demon 
    oppression is another story.  That's much more common, but more easily 
    countered.  
    
    I still stand by my bottomline: it's real, it's out there, but not as
    common as some Pentecostals believe.  I don't think Satan deserves that
    much attention for me to waste my time looking for him in every nook
    and cranny.  The safe road is to serve and worship God as well as prepare 
    yourself for anything that comes along.

    Notes .152 has been deleted due to topic being unable to set hidden 
    and  .153 has been set hidden also as it pertained to .152.
    
    Nancy
    Co-Mod CHRISTIAN
    
    

    why?

 .153 was set hidden as being inflammatory.  The author has been invited to
reword and repost.




Jim Co Mod

Remember Mods, that DECwindows users can also still see subject lines.

Delete this note and .153 at your leisure.

MM