Conference yukon::christian_v7

318.0. "Does God Beg?" by TOKNOW::METCALFE (Eschew Obfuscatory Monikers) Mon Nov 15 1993 12:58

Does God beg us to come to Him?

    Very often we have this image of Jesus as an aenemic, begging us to
    come to him, as if we had something He really needed and we were in the
    position to barter for the best deal Jesus has to offer.  "Oh, won't
    you please come to me?"  "Well, if I do, make my life comfortable,
    okay?"  "Anything you want! Just come to me to save yourself."   I'm
    serious, folks.  People may have the idea and attitude that Jesus wants
    me so bad, that he's willing to talk a deal here.  

    I don't see it that way.  We're talking about the Sovereign of the
    Universe here. Yes, he DOES *want* us to come to him.  But God provides
    us with the information we need (conviction of sin) and a choice  (life
    or death).

      Deutornonomy 30:19
        I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set
      before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life,
      that both thou and thy seed may life.

    Jesus, even when he implored people, uses imperative statements:

      John 7:37  In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood
      and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
      
      38  He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his
      belly shall flow rivers of living water. 
      
      39  (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him
      should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that
      Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    Jesus lays it out.  He says the information is there for you to read in
    Scriptures to make your choice.

       John 5
       39  Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:
           and they are they which testify of me.
       40  And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.
       41  I receive not honour from men.
       42  But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in you.
       43  I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another
           shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.
       44  How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek
           not the honour that cometh from God only?
       45  Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one 
           that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.
       46  For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote
           of me.
       47  But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?


       Matthew 11:28  Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden,
       and I will give you rest.

    Jesus is not aenemic, wringing his hands, wondering whether you will choose
    to serve him and be grateful to you for signing on as one of his chosen
    people:

     Luke 17
       7  But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will
     say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to
     meat?
       8  And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup,
     and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and
     afterward thou shalt eat and drink?
       9  Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were
     commanded him? I trow not.
      10  So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are
     commanded you, say,      We are unprofitable servants: we have done that
     which was our duty to do.^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^


     Romans 12:1  I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God,
     that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto
                                   ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
     God, which is your reasonable service. 
     ^^^                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Paul is doing the beseeching here *by the mercies of God* while God extends
    to us that mercy (consider what mercy is; and what it isn't).  Paul
    beseeches us to choose life.  God grants us choice so that we can enter 
    a personal love relationship, by choice, and not by barter for the best deal,
    which throws out the very idea of a gift from God.

    Gifts are free, and not for sale.

Mark

    
    Does God beg?  No.
    
    God calls whom he desires.  John 6:44

reference for .1

John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw
him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

    
    Re 2: thanks, I don't have my Bible with me.
    
    Does this verse imply that the Father determines who comes to Christ?
    
    thanks, Kent

    
    Re 2: thanks, I don't have my Bible with me.
    
    Does this verse imply that the Father determines who comes to Christ?
    
    Also to the verses that were listed in the basenote, I don't think
    Jesus was begging, but instead was stating his case against them.
    
    thanks, Kent

I also believe Jesus states the case, though it would not be inconsistent
to state something with compassion.  But I don't see begging, which seems
to be what some people portay Jesus as doing in many Christian circles.

-------------------
Sidetrack
-------------------
>>John 6:44  No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw
>>him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
>
>    Does this verse imply that the Father determines who comes to Christ?

Consider that men are convinced of sin, by God, and that if man was not 
convinced of his own sinfulness, he would feel no need to come to God.
The definition of sin places us in judgment by that definition, whether
feelings of guilt accompany the definition or not.  Guilt is part of a 
binary state: one is guilty or they are not guilty (by reason of innocence
or pardon).

Imagine, if you will, a bunch of people all wanting to come to Christ, 
and God says, "You, you, you, and you. The rest of you can't come."
This is not the idea of predestination (though some have thought so).
Without knowing, we cannot come.  If God did not convince man of the 
sin in his life, then man could not come to God.
-------------------
end sidetrack
-------------------

    >Does this verse imply that the Father determines who comes to Christ?
    
     No. But let's not rathole this topic also. :-)
    
     God wants all to come to him, he wants all to KNOW of his love and
    that he is a compassionate God.  He came into the world not to condemn
    it, but that through him it might be saved. 
    
    Simple, complete and beautiful.  
     

    
    When I was referring to John 6:44, I wasn't trying to start a rathole.
    What I was trying to say is that God doesn't have to beg in order to
    save someone.  
    
    Re: 6
    
    I agree with you that God wants everyone to come to full and
    complete knowledge of the ways of God.  God is merciful and com-
    passionate as you stated.
    
    regards, Kent

No thumps, Kent.  I'm just a little "gun shy" of devitations from a theme,
if you know what I mean.  Sincere questions are ALWAYS welcome, and should
be explored thoroughly.  Sometimes, thoroughness is best played out in
its own area.  I *wanted* to answer you here.  I put the disclaimer in
to indicate a point of divergence, in case it developed into something
that needs to be discussed thoroughly.

Is this a thorough explanation?  ;-)

MM

    
    Yes....

	Does God Beg ?

	No, but He does stand at the door and knock.

>	No, but He does stand at the door and knock.

Correct Karen, which shows God's grace and mercy towards all:

Revelation 3:20  Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my
voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he
with me.

It's an offer, not a plea; and offer to enter a relationship.  
The terms are God's terms, but in His mercy and grace towards us
God comes to our heart's door.  God goes to lengths to make sure you
know the offer is extended.  It isn't just an ad in the newspaper that
youmay or may not read on page 32.  He stands at your door and mine *knocking*.
"Hello?  Anyone home?  It's me, God.  I'd like to join you for dinner.
I'd like to be your companion."  

 Amen..

	oops Mark, I forgot the smiley ...

	;-)

...and we all know how important those three characters are, now, don't
we?

  :-)

  ;-)

  8^o

    
    God doesn't Beg he calls us, but it's up to us to follow him or not.
    He always gives us free will. 
    
    I chose to follow him and wouldn't choose anyother way.
    
    Ann