Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Has he been to the doctor? It sounds to me as though his depression may
    be due to some physical problem. A lady who spoke at our church
    yesterday evening explained that she had suffered from depression and
    it turned out to be an inbalance of hormones in her brain ("I always
    knew I was mentally unbalanced!" she told us).
    
    When Elijah was depressed, God made sure that he had enough rest, and
    was fed before He dealt with the depression. In other words, He dealt
    with the physical before he dealt with the mental.
    
    Your friend should be encouraged to visit his doctor first of all. He
    might find this more acceptable than a visit to a counsellor.

 I would agree with .1, assuming that has not already taken place.  I 
 would think, that if there is any interest in getting the situation 
 under control, that the first thing to be done would be a thourough
 physical exam to eliminate any medical problems that may exist.




Jim

    It's the falling asleep that makes me think that your friend may be
    ill. I've known depression in a number of people, one of whom actually
    committed suicide, and I've never known this to happen before. They've
    been constantly tired and disinclined to do anything, but never actually
    fallen asleep like this. 

    RE:  Falling asleep, he claims that he is very tired and just wants
    to sleep so he doesn't have to handle anything.  
    
    He has an appointment this week with his physician, it's a start.
    

Hi,

The appointment sounds a good step to take.  Outside my experience, but we
can be praying here... 

						God bless
								Andrew

    I'll be praying for your friend.  What a sad situation for him and his
    circle of family and friends!  As a Christian, he has the Ultimate
    Resource available to him in the person of Jesus Christ.
    
    A physical exam is a very wise first step.  Methinks that the other
    symptoms described in .0 indicate a serious depression.  But that's
    what the medical folks are trained to diagnose.  So, like Andrew,
    I'll keep your friend in prayer without saying more.
    
    Do keep us posted.
    
    -greta

    I agree with those that recommend that any possible physical causes of
    depression be eliminated.  I have known of many cases of depression
    that were caused by various hormonal/chemical inbalances, and were
    clearly *not* a spiritual issue.
    
    Mark L.

 replies .7-15 have been moved to topic 320 "Demons".




Jim Co mod (who will move back notes that shouldn't have been moved :-}

                         
    There are wonderful homeopathic remedies called Bach Flower Remedies
    which might be of help in this situation.  The remedy Star of Bethelem
    comes immediately to mind, which helps a person cope with sadness and
    despair.  They're safe to take, have been around for many decades, and 
    I've used them with great success.  You can usually purchase them in
    health food stores.    
    
    Be sure that the person is not injesting Nutrasweet/Aspartame - that 
    is a known depressant by the scientific community, but this fact not 
    well-known by the general population or acknowledged by the
    manufacturers.
    
    Cindy

    Hi Cindy, 
    
    I know intimately about BACH flowers.  A friend of mine, who is a
    Universalist is also a massage therapist, and she uses BACH flowers for
    her clients.
    
    She used them on me once, but I shunned the method.  You see what she
    did was something called "muscle testing" to determine which flower
    remedy I needed.  She placed my hand on the viles and tested the
    muscles through my other arm.  When my muscle in my arm went weak as I
    touched the vile, she determined that was what my body needed.
    
    Self Image was the topic of that particular vile.  Very interesting as
    I was just in the midst of my divorce at that time and was suffering
    terribly from guilt.  
    
    Can anyone see anything contra-Biblical about this practice?
    
    Nancy

    Re: Note 316.10 by JULIET::MORALES_NA
    
    Vile = Vial?  Small container, usually glass?
    
>   Can anyone see anything contra-Biblical about this practice?
    
    No, (IMHO) just extra-biblical.  Some might believe it was divination,
    and if you can find any of those then be sure not to let them know
    about it, for otherwise they may think that you sin.  Remember dancing
    is sinful in some people's books?  
    
    Surely God can work through a few glass containers with stuff in them?
    Just like casting lots!  Is it less likely for God to work through such
    a situation if the person performing the process is not a Christian?
    No idea!  I can't remember any scripture to say yea or nay.
    
    James

    What's the Bach come from in the name Cindy?
    Is it pronounced "bark" as in "wolf!"?
    
    James

    No its pronounced BAWK [like a parrot]. :-) :-)
    
    I believe the first name is that of a woman and that she was
    herbologist who discovered that flowers contained oils that could be
    used in healing.
    
    Cindy, please correct me if I'm wrong on this one.
    
    Thanks for the correction vial.

    Depression can also be caused from chronic fatigue. If he is working
    too much, or not sleeping well because of stress, then he could be 
    experiencing sleep deprivation which can bring on depression.

    
    Jim

    Re: Note 316.9 by TNPUBS::PAINTER
    
>   Be sure that the person is not injesting Nutrasweet/Aspartame - that 
>   is a known depressant by the scientific community, [...]
    
    It also breaks down into a series of well known carcinogenics when
    heated beyond a certain temperature (which I can't remember), and will
    break down at a lower temperature if enzymes or other catalysts are
    used.  Not surprising that they say "don't use for cooking" on the
    packet.
    
    (carcinogenics = chemical agents that cause cancer).
    
    James

 Hmmm....do you mean I shouldn't be drinking diet coke?

    Only if your insides go above some temperature (probably 250�C or
    something :-) )

    Re: Note 316.16 by CSLALL::HENDERSON
    
>Hmmm....do you mean I shouldn't be drinking diet coke?
    
    Me?  I don't *mean* anything... ;-)  [chuckle]
    
    I would advise against it based on the possibility that enzyme action
    within your body is breaking down the aspartame at lower temperatures,
    *or* that the liquid had been heated during transportation to a
    temperature above the known point.
    
    (Which, incidentally, I don't know, but I do know it is between 45 and
    90 degrees C, where 37 is body temperature, 39-40 is shower water
    temperature, 45 is a heatwave in Australia, and 100 is boiling point of
    water at sea level.)
    
    We regularly have temperatures around 40-48c in the outback where
    trucks pass through to take deliveries across the country... the
    drivers have air conditioning but the cans usually do not need it,
    since they are cooled prior to sale.
    
    James

    
    Bach - like the composer.
                   
    Brief about the Remedies:
    
    Between the years 1930 and 1936, Edward Bach, M.B., B.S., M.R.C.S.,
    L.R.C.P, D.P.H., found, perfected, and put into use a system of
    medicine as simple as it has proved effective.  After a successful
    career in London, he abandoned a lucrative practice to seek and find
    herbs which would heal the sick, but from which no ill-effects could be
    derived.  [end brief]
    
    Nancy, I believe that testing is called muscle kinesiology (I know the
    spelling is not right though).  I guess it's what you're used to
    accepting as medical diagnosis - probably you would feel more
    comfortable relying on the more 'traditional' methods of machines doing
    diagnoses, etc.  This is a much older, and alternative way of diagnosis
    than what you are used to.  What your massage therapist used on you was
    body-centered diagnosis.
    
    There are also other ways of this diagnosis - pulse diagnosis, foot and 
    hand reflexology, where you probe points on the hands or feet to see where 
    the sore points are, and the sore points correspond to other parts of 
    the body that have problems. 
    
    As for the remedies themselves, they don't contain a lot of the
    sometimes harmful chemicals that you find in medicines found on the 
    shelves of pharmacists and drugstores.  Given that we've all been 
    brought up in the traditional western allopathic environment, 
    naturally it would stand to reason that anything outside of this is 
    cause for suspect.  And yet, I feel that taking a harmless remedy is
    far more Biblical (treating the Temple well) than some of the
    alternatives that western medicine would suggest.  
    
    It's not to throw out western medicine completely, because what they do
    to heal the physical body, they for the most part do well (infections,
    wounds, broken bones, etc.)  I would just like to see a combination be
    used of traditional and alternative medicine to treat people more 
    holistically.  
    
    Prayer, believe it or not, is actually in the 'alternative' column.  
    Imagine a western-trained doctor suggesting *praying* for healing!  So, 
    you as a Christian are faced with the same problem in getting your 
    preferred method in use by the medical community too, albeit from a 
    different aspect.  For scientific research done on the effects of prayer 
    in healing, look up material by Dr. Larry Dossey.
    
    Anyway, I suggested the remedies because they worked for me.  From
    looking through the descriptions, it looks a combination of Mustard and
    Clematis might help .0 the most.  Mustard is for gloom and darkness,
    and Clematis is for those who withdraw and enjoys excessive sleep.
    
    For alternative medicine in general, by far the best book that talks
    about all the different aspects is "Vibrational Medicine", by Dr.
    Richard Gerber.
    
    Cindy

>    Between the years 1930 and 1936, Edward Bach, M.B., B.S., M.R.C.S.,
>    L.R.C.P, D.P.H., found, perfected, and put into use a system of
>    medicine as simple as it has proved effective.
    
    Wasn't he the inventer of alphabet soup? :-)
    
    Mark L.

    
    Oh yeah...that too.  (;^)
    
    Cindy

    Cindy,
    
    Thanks for the Bio there.  Also, I have to tell you I have no reason to
    dissuade muscle [k-word] as being a reliable source to determine areas
    of weakness in the body.  But what I'm not sure of is how you can
    determine what is causing the weakness.  This concerns me.
    
    I also know that our mind can cause our body to be weak, simply through
    what proceeds out of our hearts, as is Biblical BTW.  You can use
    muscle [k-word] :-) and see its validity simply through stating love
    and hate.  When say the word love, the muscle testing will be strong,
    when say the word hate, the muscle testing will be weak.  
    
    God's word is true and we should guard our hearts and mind by setting
    them on things above and not on the earth, for it is essential to the
    vitality of your Christianity.
    
    I'm not espousing the power of positive thinking agenda... just simply
    stating God's word and its truths.
    
    Nancy

    
    Nancy,
    
    Can you elaborate on:
    
    >But what I'm not sure of is how you can determine what is causing
    >the weakness.
    
    I'm not sure what you mean...or maybe I'm not understanding the
    context.
    
    Cindy

    Why Shore Cindy,
    
    You see through this testing you can determine areas of the body
    [organs if you will] that are weak, or unhealthy.  But what you cannot
    establish is why are they unhealthy.
    
    I know God's word says that out of the heart proceeds the infirmities
    of man, but not everything is purely a spiritual or emotional problem.
    Some of it has to do with genetics, viruses, cancer, etc.
    
    The danger with using this kind of medical assistance by itself is that
    cancer can't be found, or rather the cause behind the problem is not
    always easily or accurately determined.
    
    Nancy

    
    What if a depressed person is having Nightmares along with not
    sleeping?
    
    Why does it seem a depressed person turns against God instead of
    leaning towards him. How do you encourage that person ?
    Could a depressed person be blaming God?
    
    Ann
    
    
    
    

    Ann,
    
    Depression does go against God because the focus is on self, having
    crossed over the line of caring for one's self to selfishness. 
    Self centeredness replaces God centeredness.
    
    In Him,
    Nancy
    

                               
    Re.26
    
    Nancy,
    
    Will reply in detail to your earlier note - thanks, that does make it
    more clear.
    
    Re.26 - sometimes depression really is a chemical imbalance, and has
    nothing to do with selfishness.  While selfishness may seem like it is
    the 'cause', in many cases, the real cause is almost always something 
    else. 
    
    Regarding the Nutrasweet - the article I read in Science News back
    around 1986 referred to a woman who, immediately after drinking a few
    glasses of iced tea with Nutrasweet in it, became instantly suicidal. 
    She was hospitalized, and the symptoms went away.  They sent her home
    and again she became suicidal.  After being hospitalized yet again, the
    doctors and family set about trying to find the cause.  Eventually they
    found the link between the iced tea brand and that she had only started
    drinking it recently.  In such a depressed state, had she been cursing
    God, instead of being suicidal, it would have been related to the
    Nutrasweet, and not her normal mental/spiritual state, as prior to
    this, the woman was cheerful and never had been suicidal in her life.
    
    I gave the article to my neurologist at the time, who, upon reading it,
    his eyes became very wide.  I suspect he circulated it among his
    colleagues and began warning other patients about the link...     
    
    Cindy

	Ray, what you say is so true. Not every condition is demon related. My
friend John had a chemical imbalance and was treated for it. He is much better
today because of it. Who does he give the credit to? God. He was also the one
John offered the sickness up to in the beginning as well. God led John to a
means that helped him with his depression. It would seem that God did the same
for you as well.



Glen

    Ray,
    
    There are *positively* hereditary factors that can lead to depression. 
    A family that I know quite well is currently working on countering what
    is clearly a hereditary matter.  I don't recall the specific name that
    is given to the particular problem that has been in the family line,
    but it is clearly there, and has had effects on several generations in
    the family.
    
    Mark L.

Age may also be a factor - my grandmother (89) has a few age-related ailments,
and recently depression is one for which she is being treated; stalwart woman
of God that she is.

    Hi,
    
    just a real quick additional bit of information...
    
    One other thing that is very important is taking care of unfinished
    business.  Usually someone who is depressed has been avoiding doing
    everyday, and important, things.  They tend to withdraw and leave a
    lot of things undone.  This adds to the depression because the de-
    pressed person sees a growing mountain of problems that becomes im-
    possible (at least is perceived that way) to overcome.
    
    Helping them learn to tackle this mountain of problems, unresolved 
    issues and just plain neglected responsibilities bit-by-bit is a very
    important issue.  Someone who is depressed needs hope, and something
    that works very well in restoring hope is seeing success, bit-by-bit.
    Bit-by-bit is important because a major contributing factor to depress-
    ion is this insurmountable pile of problems, etc.  If the person tries
    to tackle too much at one time, he/she may experience continual set
    backs which will contribute to their downward spiral into deeper
    depression.
    
    I would always suggest that such a person go for counseling.  They need
    help making a "to-do" list, and setting priorities.  They will also
    need encouragement to begin to deal with the problems.  They need to be
    reminded that they do not have to deal with everything all at once, ie
    they need to be reminded that, bit-by-bit, they will conquer their
    mountain of problems, etc.
    
    They will also need help in dealing with the strained, and broken,
    relationships that have come as a result of their depression.  If the
    person had a difficult time in relationships anyway, depression will
    only aggravate the problem.
    
    It needs to be recognized that one cause of depression is negelected
    responsibilities.  Whether that be relationships or work.  Depression
    may also simply be a means of escape, ie something that worked in the
    past to elicit sympathy that ultimately led to escaping responsibility
    rather than facing it.  In such a situation the sympathy shown by
    others may actually contribute to the depression, rather than alleviate
    it.  ie The depressed person is avoiding dealing with problems, work,
    etc (just plain "escaping", but rather than using drugs or alcohol,
    they resort to depression - ie a behavioural pattern that has brought
    the desired success in the past) by "withdrawing".  Those around the
    depressed person feel sorry (which is natural and good) for him/her but
    rather than really helping (taking concrete steps to help the person
    deal with, rather than run away from, their problems), they let the
    person withdraw, and be depressed.  They cater to the person and,
    rather than getting better, the person gets worse because guilt is
    added to the already growing mountain of problems.
    
    Families of people who suffer with depression need to learn how to
    lovingly help the person systematically attack, and conquer, their
    problems rather than run from them.  
    
    I am not ignoring the potential physical causes (or even hereditary
    causes/tendencies) of depression.  But in all cases there is specific
    behaviour associated with depression, the not-taking-care-of respon-
    sibilities being at the top of the list.  Helping the depressed person
    tackle these things will help them regain hope and eventually deal
    better with their depression.
    
    Rob Marshall (using my other account because we're experiencing network
    problems after our move)
    

Well, my "quick" bit of information ended up being more than I thought, and
then I forgot something anyway...

On the issue of sin and depression.  Sin may be the cause (the initiator) of
the depression.  More correctly unforgiven sin.  It's always important to see
if there is unforgiven sin in the person's life.  This, however, is different
than seeing the depression as sin.

Depression, in and of itself, is not sin.  But, it may have been initiated
by sin (see Psalms 31:9-10), and it will eventually be accompanied by sin.
I say that because the depressed person avoids responsibility, neglects friends
and family and looses his faith and trust in God (lack of faith is a sin)
and will eventually become bitter towards God. (there are many, many, examples
in the Psalms of this, and also how the person *purposed* in his heart to
trust in God none-the-less)  The difficult thing is helping the person deal
with his anger/bitterness toward God so that their hope and faith, and trust,
are restored without building them on false-hopes.  Plus helping them deal
with their sin and *experience* forgiveness (many people ask for forgiveness,
but never seem to experience it because they don't know, ie comprehend, God's
mercy.  Sometimes they end up with friends like Job, but sometimes it's just
a lack of understanding on their part, and believing that forgiveness can't
be that simple).

I also have problems with people performing "deliverance rituals", because they
can do more harm than good.  Especially when deliverance (which I personally
see as unscriptural) is seen as a cure-all.  Unfortunately, some people have
substituted biblical counseling with "deliverance ministry", thereby creating
more problems than they have solved.

Rob

There are self-help groups for those struggling with depression
as well as the *families* of those struggling with depression.
The local MDDA/Boston chapter which meets every Wednesday at
7:00 at McLean Hospital in Belmont is a very large and active
group.  There are small groups (such as "Friends and Family)
which can be invaluable in helping family members deal with 
someone who is depressed and refuses to seek help.  100 or more
people at the Boston group is not uncommon.

There are also a number of smaller groups.  I'm aware that there
is a group in Nashua that meets twice a month on Thursday nights
as well a group in a town just west of Worcester.  There are
other groups around as well.  Feel free to contact me if you
would like more information.

Collis