Conference yukon::christian_v7

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    James

	==================================================================

   Do you think it is right in today's society, to use the Bible to take an
   oath over the truth of testimony in court, or in legal procedings in 
   general?

   Is such an oath taken seriously by even the majority of people in court?

   How binding to the truth do you think such an oath should be, and is the 
   oath actually effective?

   What significance is there in someone swearing an oath to tell the
   truth on the Bible, if they do not revere the Bible as God's Word, and 
   do not live by it?

   Are there circumstances which you feel should override the integrity of 
   the oath - for instance a personal belief or racial preference or 
   allegiance?

	==================================================================

This is a rewording of 309.0 as a general query of principle.
Comment and perspectives on this would be appreciated.

						Thank you
							Andrew

    I remember reading about a rape trial in America where the defendant took 
    the oath and swore that he was not guilty, or rather tried to swear. He 
    was struck dumb half way through his oath and, when a piece of paper and 
    pencil were given to him, he admitted that he was guilty and claimed that 
    he had been struck dumb by God for lying under oath.
                                      
    I'm sorry, I can't remember where I read it - I think it was in my
    mother's weekly magazine a few years ago.                           

    I already included these texts in mail to the original basenoter, but
    I'll include them here for the sake of any others that have questions
    along these lines.  My convictions on this matter have been formed by
    the following:
    
    Matthew 5:33 Again, ye have heard that it hath been said by them of
        old time, Thou shalt not forswear thyself, but shalt perform unto
        the Lord thine oaths:
     34 But I say unto you, Swear not at all; neither by heaven; for it
        is God's throne:
     35 Nor by the earth; for it is his footstool: neither by Jerusalem;
        for it is the city of the great King.
     36 Neither shalt thou swear by thy head, because thou canst not make
        one hair white or black.
     37 But let your communication be, Yea, yea; Nay, nay: for whatsoever
        is more than these cometh of evil.
    
    James 5:12 But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by
        heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let
        your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into
        condemnation.
    
    Thus, I refuse to swear any oaths.  In instances where I have been in a
    position to be "sworn in" in a court or jury situation, I have politely
    informed the officials that it is against my convictions to swear any
    oath.  I believe that the American legal system has been pressed on
    this matter sufficiently that they are familiar with the above
    principals, so this usually isn't a surprise to them.  (I do recall a
    green "prosecuting attorney" in traffic court blowing his lid when I
    stated my refusal, but the judge quickly put him back in place.)  In
    every case, I have been asked if I will "affirm" that I will tell the
    truth, and I say "yes". 
    
    The interesting thing is that someone who bases his life on the
    principals of the Scriptures is probably more likely to tell "the
    truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the whole truth" than many who
    put their hand on the Bible and swear to do so, IMHO.  Go figure....
    
    Mark L.

    
    re .8 Mark,
    
          I am in full agreement with you. Good note.

    So Mark,
    
    Have you ever been in the military.. OR have you ever been in Scouting?
    
    Going into the military, there is an oath...
    
    Scouting has a "Scout Oath".... 
    
    Are these "oaths" ones that you'd refuse to say..? OR is just that
    you'd not "swear" to that other....???
    
    Inquiring mind want to know!
    
    Bob
    

    I forgot one question...

    The "pledge of allegiance" is "an oath".... Would this/any pledge be
    one you'd not say..?

    Is there a difference (in your mind) between *saying* and *swearing*.

    IMHO... When it comes to oaths/pledges, they mean the same thing.

    "Swearing" to an oath is not *swearing* as in foul language.
    
    My reason for asking is, I've run into this, within the scouting
    program....
    
    Just curious!
    
    Bob
    

    Bob,
    
    My only military experience was a required year in ROTC during my
    freshman year in college.  I beleive that at the beginning of the year
    they had us all stand and be "sworn in" in a standard military way.  At
    that time, my convictions weren't as strong as they are now -- I think
    I just joined in then.
    
    For some of the other things, I'd have to be in the specific situation,
    I guess.  To tell the truth, I no longer recite the pledge of
    allegiance (HORRORS! :-) ), as I have pledged my allegiance to God, and
    I believe that there may come a time when that allegiance may be in
    direct conflict with allegiance to the nation.  I realize that many
    just join in saying the "pledge", but I try to consider more carefully
    what I say when it is such a matter as who or what I am pledging my
    allegiance to.
    
    Mark L.

    Well, I must have really been led in my previous respose, because I
    answered your later question before reading your last reply. :-)
    
    One further thing I wanted to add -- I believe that many of these
    things are matters of personal conviction.  I don't go around chiding
    any Christian who allows him/herself to be "sworn in" in court or
    recites the pledge of allegiance.  I am relating what my personal
    convictions are, and the reason I hold them.
    
    Mark L.

    Mark,
    
    I agree with you that there will come a time, perhaps in our children's
    lives when pledging allegiance to this country would be directly
    against our Christianity.  I also know this is prophecy in that it is
    written that those who will not take the mark of the beast will be
    beheaded.
    
    However, at this juncture I believe patriotism is needed FROM
    Christians.  Let the non-Christians burn the flags.  I'm teaching my
    sons to be patriotic and much to my chagrin, my almost 11 year old
    [November 23rd] had this conversation with me not too long ago.   I
    asked him if he would fight for this country should there be a war
    during his era.  His response was flat out, "No."  
    
    This was in direct conflict with what I had been teaching him, but
    bless his heart, he formed his own opinion from watching the news,
    listening in church to the sermons and decided that this country was no
    longer a Christian nation and he wouldn't defend it.  
    
    Ha... in my face,Mom! :-)
    
    This is very upsetting to me because it goes against the blue blood of
    America that is in my veins, the patriotism that was taught and pride
    in my Country and in my Faith.  I won an essay contest from the
    Interbay Sertoma Club, when I was in 8th grade.  The essay contest was
    "What it Means to me to be An American Citizen"... my entire essay was
    about freedom of religion.
    
    So much has changed.
    
    Nancy

    Hi Nancy,
    
    >However, at this juncture I believe patriotism is needed FROM
    >Christians.  Let the non-Christians burn the flags.  I'm teaching my
    
    This is exactly what the Nazi's said about the Jews and look what happened.
    
    200 years ago when Australia was invaded the murdered 100,000 of
    natives because they were different.  Some justified it on the grounds
    that they were not humans other on the grounds that they were not
    Christians.  Today we still have deaths in custody of Aboriginal
    Australians and nothing much is said or done.
    
    By the way there were around 2 million Aboriginal in Australia before
    the invasion, now there are around 100,000 or less than 1%.  In
    Tasmainia the "settlers" wanted to use the land to graze cattle and saw
    the natives as vermins.  So they got together and started from one side
    of the island and shot every single native they came across. The last
    full blooded Tasmainian native died about 50 odd years ago. I watch the 
    documentaries that tell the history of the natives and it's rather sad.  
    
    To talk about being patriotic and implying non-Christians are unpatriotic 
    is a gross injustice.  This is the kind of injustic many non-Europeans and
    non-Christians have to face on a day to day bases.  So does patriotism
    come before God ? Does patriotism come before justice ? What is
    patriotism ? Does it have a place if you are truely a Servant of God ?
    
    Did not the Jews, African Americans who are Muslims, I know of Hindus
    in the US armed forces, who lay down their lives for "your" country ? 
    Can only Christians be patriotic ?
    
    Millions of people around the world have died because their religion
    was not one of the Middle-eastern religions.  So to say the following:
    
    >"I also know this is prophecy in that it is written that those who will 
    >not take the mark of the beast will be beheaded.".
    
    This has already happened and is happening to people who are
    non-Christians or are not "People of the book".  The real beast are
    those who are injust and have no respect for others and take part in
    these crimes.
    
    Your reply does nothing but add to the belief that you have to be a
    certain kind of a person to get justice.  For example the profile would
    be:
    
    1. White Anglo-saxon is possible
    2. A Christian
    3. Middle class if at all possible
    4. Be able to speak English
    
    I for my part have had a number of problems with Middle-eastern
    religions and I mean the people who follow the "religion".  At the
    moment I have join an Inter-faith group where people respect one
    another and are working to reach a better understanding.  I openly
    admit that I have short coming but I am determined to overcome them. 
    The main reason being that God has said that we are all created
    "equally".  If so I have to try and overcome my short falls.
    
    I don't want to argue as it's not worth it, I leave it up to all
    concerned to question what they see around them.  I am just an ordinary
    man I can not change the world but I can certainly try to change
    myself.  I do not believe in God because I have a relationship with him
    that goes far beyond a sentimental belief.  GOD IS REAL.
    
    Finally seeing injustice around me I have come to believe in God even
    more.  I still fall far short of being perfect.  If I have childern I
    will teach them to be God conscious and just that is the goal of life. 
    
    
    Regards,
    
    Sunil

    Sunil,
    
    I understand your zeal about racism and I agree with it.  My statement
    had nothing to do with racism or prejudice.  In this country it is not
    illegal to burn a flag.  [it used to be though]
    
    My statement was that as a Christian, we should have loyalty not
    ah-loyalty.
    
    Loyalty says for instance that my friend who steals [though I don't
    agree with his action] will still be my friend.
    
    Ah-Loyalty says that when my friend stole, he also lost my friendship.
    
    I believe in loyalty to this country, even though the country is
    changing the direction from the founding fathers.  Why?  Because if the
    80% of people in this country who say they are CHRISTIAN would begin to
    practice CHRISTIAN Biblical principles, this nation could be turned
    around.
    
    I cannot speak for Australia, I realize each country has their issues,
    and when I read what you have written, it makes me even the more
    thankful for my country as it is today.
    
    Nancy

    Re: Note 309.15 by GIDDAY::SETHI
    
>   200 years ago when Australia was invaded the[y] murdered 100,000 of
>   natives because they were different.  Some justified it on the grounds
>   that they were not humans other on the grounds that they were not
>   Christians.  Today we still have deaths in custody of Aboriginal
>   Australians and nothing much is said or done.
    
    Most of the above is true.  I'm glad that the Christians who did it are
    no longer with us.  I don't have to justify, defend or criticise their
    actions.  They are gone, though some of their behaviour lingers.
    
    Just to offer additional information; the police force here is being
    portrayed by the media [ and Sunil ;-) ] as being racist.  There is the
    impression that natives taken into custody by the police are mistreated
    and die.  I have not yet come across racist police force members,
    though I desire to find out the truth.
    
    The "nothing much" that is being "said and done" involves almost
    continual media coverage, peaceful demonstrations by the populations
    involved, and a "royal commission of enquiry" into the subject, which
    *did* reveal shortcomings.
    
    I contend that the problem is "relatively" minor.  If only ten people
    per year are dying in this country from this activity, then it's not
    important enough to spend resources on it "just yet".  We have far
    greater numbers dying from inability to drive motor vehicles,
    correctable health problems, and other things.
    
>   By the way there were around 2 million Aboriginal in Australia before
>   the invasion, now there are around 100,000 or less than 1%.  In
>   Tasmania the "settlers" wanted to use the land to graze cattle and saw
>   the natives as vermins.  So they got together and started from one side
>   of the island and shot every single native they came across. The last
>   full blooded Tasmanian native died about 50 odd years ago. I watch the 
>   documentaries that tell the history of the natives and it's rather sad.  
   
    This agrees with my understanding of history.  The culture that
    preceeded ours did not number themselves like we do, so the population
    estimates are _very_ uncertain.  As for shooting them, most settlers
    would use cheaper means when available.  ;-(
    
    It's a very similar situation to that portrayed in American films with
    their native pre-occupiers.  The differences were that the weaponry
    technology was more advanced, the land area was less supportive of
    life, the existing culture was threfore more nomadic, and the
    settler-intrusion rate was lower.
    
    James

    Hi All,
    
    Just to say that I won my case and the judge dismissed all the charges.
    What had happened a few weeks before I was to appear before the court
    was that I had to call the police because of a problem.
    
    I got talking to the sergeant and told him why I was reluctant to
    discuss anything with him.  He got a bit annoyed but spent sometime
    listening to me.  He told me to visit the police station during the
    weekend to have a chat.
    
    Little did I know he had been investigating what I had said and I
    didn't even realise this until the day of my appearence at court.  The
    sergeant is a Catholic and basically we talked about religious things
    and I must admit that I really enjoyed talking to him, he is a
    committed Christian.
    
    When I arrived at the court the police seemed to be acting in a very
    odd way.  A few hours later I was in court and the statements were
    presented and the police did not question my case for self defence. 
    But they kept on calling witnesses and asking them if they had been
    asked to appear.
    
    What was happening was that they were covering themselves against costs
    as they had to appear to have made every attempt to have called the
    witnesses.  If they had not I would have won costs.
    
    I am grateful to the sergeant for taking time to read through the
    statements and taking his time to understand what I went through.  I do
    feel much better and can forgive the police for what they did but I
    can't forget.
    
    I still feel Australia has a long way to go before I can honestly say
    that I live in a fair and just society.  There is some justice but to
    get justice is hardwork.
    
    I really have not seen the goodside of Australians in the 4 years I
    have been here.  Unfortunately I hear some really horrible stories from
    Asians regarding their treatment.  I wish I could do something to
    highlight the problems, a number of times some friends of mine have
    told me it's best to shutup.  But I really do feel people should be
    made aware of the real issues so society can change.
    
    At least there is a happy ending to this and thank God I met someone
    who helped me.  I had been praying for help and pray really does work
    and I thank God for listening to me.
    
    I like to thank you all for your suppoort.  I hope you all have a Happy
    Christmas and New Year.
    
    Regards,
    
    Sunil

Hi Sunil,

So glad those concerns have been dealt with, and the opposition melted away
like that.  Quite an answer to prayer, especially with a Christian sergeant! 

Guess it points to a happier Christmas!

						God bless
								Andrew

 AMEN!




 Jim

    That is GREAT Sunil... !!
    
    :-)
    Nancy