Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Glenn,
    
    I am not in agreement with what is usually considered the charismatic
    movement.  However, I will *not* allow the threat of being considered
    charismatic keep me (or my place of fellowship) from expressing our
    love, joy, peace, reverence, appreciation of God and His Word, etc. 
    The charismatics have no corner on joyfulness. :-)
    
    I imagine more discussion will come.  I've got to leave for home now.
    
    Mark L.

    Hi Glenn,
    
    Boy can I understand what you are saying.  It was two years ago and
    through this conference that I began exploring the gifts of the Spirit
    boldly... which I treated with great trepidation and fear before.
    
    Having met some truly Spirit filled people, I find myself now sitting
    in my Baptist church, stomping my feet, clapping my hands and just
    grinning all over when the Spirit moves me.  I used to be intimidated,
    now I just do it...What changed for me?  Believing that the Spirit
    of God was on my life and that for me to lothers* govern that Spirit
    was sin.  I am still very cautious about what I attribute to the Spirit
    and am very concerned that the Spirit's movements not be extraBiblical,
    which in my opinion is contraBiblical.  But that's been discussed in
    another topic in here.
    
    I also must caution that God's word declares Charity to be the
    plumb line for the gifts of the Spirit. I Cor 13.  If we have all those
    manistations but have not charity��... it profiteth nothing.
    
    I will pray and God Bless.
    
    Nancy

Hi Glenn,

Privileged to join in prayer with you on this.

I haven't heard of the Fresh Encounters program.  I rather think I'd like 
to ;-)

The questions to ask about 'whether it's right', are whether it conforms 
to the Word of God, and whether it seeks to glorify God.  If it is truly 
focussed upon the LORD, I believe that Luke 11:9-13 applies. ending "...how 
much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask 
Him."  If you are truly seeking Him alone in your dedication, then He will 
not let you be fooled by bad coin, a substitute 'experience' which has none 
of Himself, or anything less than what *He* has for you.

Re lifting up the hands in worship - is in 1 Timothy 2:8 : 
 "I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without 
  wrath and doubting."

The only explicit implication in Revelation I can think of is in 7:9, where 
the 'multitude that no man can number' are holding palm branches, and 
they're scarcely going to be wiping the floor with them in that situation 
;-)

I have a problem with labels.  Like 'Charismatic'.  It means different 
things to different people.  The root meaning of the word is lost in a 
flood of emotive extrapolation.

You are likely to be labelled if you are willing to follow the LORD 
wherever He leads.  He was labelled variously... (Matthew 27:37), as were 
the disciples (Acts 11:26).  That labelling is likely to come from other 
Christians who have not been led that path (yet).

God asks us to follow Him by faith, not by sight.  You have to examine 
whether your priority is the rules of men or the rules of God.   Bearing in 
mind that God does not contradict Himself or His Word, though He may not be 
easy to follow!

�    Also the AWANA program (I know Baptists have to many programs) charter
�    requires the church not be Charismatic, 

I don't know AWANA, though I believe I have seen the initials before.  You 
need to know exactly what AWANA defines as the prohibitted 'Charismatic'.

� and the AWANA program is responsible for many of the youth in our
� neighborhood being saved. 

Certainly a good mark for AWANA for a start!  Maybe they need to be dealt 
gently with.

�    Anyway I guess my fear is knowing many of the things I saw in my
�    younger days I felt were false or satans imitations of the real gifts.

Wherever you get the LORD moving in a way which has an outward evidence of
benefit, you're liable to get imitators in the flesh, and imitators who
have another source.  Your responsibility is first to the LORD, remembering 
His love for you, but also for all His church.

You said that 20 people went through the Fresh Encounters, but it sounds as
if the church is pretty united in the uplifting praise and worship which
has resulted.  If this is the case, you are indeed blessed! - many churches
split over such a thing.  I'll be praying particularly over this aspect for 
yuo for this weekend.

The other warning is that when the LORD touches in such an exciting way,
there is a tendency for some to think this is more important than staying
in / studying the Word, and maintaining the works and care they were
involved in beforehand.  Some even fall into sin because they let the
height of emotion shed their natural inhibitions where these should not 
be...  There can even be a dangewr in this respect in public confession of 
things which should be dealt with privately, as their publication can prove 
a pitfall to others.

With the AWANA limitation, it is possible that their prohibition is based
on an assumption that any supernatural gifts of the Holy Spirit were no
longer needed once the Bible was complete.  They then have to identify use
of the gifts (you haven't said whether this has occurred - as yet - but it
sounds as though you may well be 'on the verge, if it hasn't...).  I
believe that the cessationist argument is not correct, but I worship in a
church where this is what is believed!  I was already there when the LORD
touched me particularly (much as you described, but without the program) -
some 13 years back. After some time I felt it right not to lift my hands in
worship there, as people misinterpretted it, and looked at me instead of at
the LORD. 

May God continue to bless you and the fellowship!

								Andrew

Praise God!  His Holy Spirit is moving all over the place, all over the world!

The path you are now treading is one I've been walking in also these past
couple of years.  I can certainly echo the sense of growing closer to the Lord
than ever before.  I wish you were closer to New England, I'd love to sit down
and talk.  Typing just takes too long to get the ideas out!

One thing that really spoke to me at the beginning was this idea:

Over the past 20 years, the reaction of the majority of Christians to the
charasmatic gifts of the Holy Spirit has fallen neatly into one of two classic
psychological categories:  "charismania" or "charisphobia."

My guess is that your earlier experience of charismatic worship fell into the
"charismania" category, blowing the importance of the gifts out of all
proportion, losing perspective on our true calling, and failing to exercise
enough - if any - restraint of the Word on the usage of the gifts.  Through
this lack of restraint, counterfeits of the gifts can flourish.

Because of that inappropriate exhibition of the use of the gifts, many people
in the church have fallen into an outright fear of the gifts, "charisphobia." 
This robs the church of its lifeblood and power.  That's not what God wants for
us either - we are called to walk in balance between one and the other.

The analogy of a kite is one that has particular meaning for me.  We are like
kites, and for a kite to fly it requires two things: wind and string.  So also
for us to "fly," we need both the Word and the Spirit.

A kite which is firmly attached to its string, but which has no wind to lift
it, is dead.  It lies lifeless on the ground, just a couple of sticks and
paper.  For Christians, a dependence on the Word alone, without the
enlightenment of the Spirit, results in dead legalism.

But a kite which has no string attached, and is subject to the wind, is blown
haphazardly along the ground, bouncing and crashing into things, until it is
ultimately destroyed.  A dependence on the Spirit alone, without the restraint
of the Word, leads to chaos as we are unable to discern what is truly from
God's Spirit and what is from us or from other spirits.

It is only when a kite is firmly attached to its restraining and controlling
string, and is lifted by the wind, that it can soar above the earth.  And it is
only as we are directed by the Word, and lifted by the Spirit, that we can
reach the heights God desires for us.

Don't fear the Spirit, but resolve to let the Spirit lead and guide you, as
directed by the Word.

Paul

Is it necessary to toss a "-phobia" label in to the fray?





Jim

    -.1
    
    Jim-
    
    I think Paul's use of "-phobia" was meant to describe, not condemn
    (in a negative way); and I think it was accurate.  As a child in 
    the '70's, I lived through the "charismatic movement (read "-mania")
    and it was chaos.  The emphasis was totally on the gifts of the spirit.
    It was almost like a contest between people: who had what gifts, how
    many, and how often could they "use" them.  Needless to say, that
    body of believers didn't last and it was a very painful and messy
    break up for all concerned.  As a result, whenever I hear someone
    say "God told me xxx" or better yet, "The Lord reveled to me that
    YOU need to do xxx/YOU have this sin in your life" - the red flag
    goes right up.  Not to say that He never works in that way, but it's
    the intent or SPIRIT in which the message is given.  God doesn't need
    so-an-so to give me a word; He can speak directly to me.
    
    
    Karen
    
    P.S. Paul - thanks for your clear and sound words.  Your notes 
         always enlighten and encourage me.
    

    .6
    
    Hi Karen!!!! :-)
    
    I agree with you said.. the "mania" part was what scared most Baptists
    into denial of the Spirit's movement in any non-formal way... at least
    from my perspective it appeared that way.
    
    Nancy

 RE .6



 I've reread Paul's note, and will do so again..perhaps the cold that I have
has modified my ability to understand.


I too have been part of congregations that have been affected by the
charasmatic "movement" and have witnessed first hand the damage left behind.
I do not wish to limit the Holy Spirit, but I'll confess to being on the
fence doctrinally on this issue.



Jim

	Hi Glenn,
	Good to hear you. I think the crux of the matter is if your
	worship enhances your love for God and builds you up for sevice
	the other six days of the week, then this is surely a gift 
	from God. If the excitement, euphoria and emotion is so much 
	on a Sunday that it leaves you with a kind of spiritual 
	hangover on Monday mornings then IMHO it's just an emotional
	thing and you would be just aswell going along to a disco or
	a football match and chanting your teams name. 

	The worship service at our church is very mellow. I believe
	God made us all different and we should all worship in the
	way we feel comfortable. In a way sometimes I sort of envy more 
	charismatic worship as I always feel that they enjoy their 
	worship more. But then again there is a great danger that
	the enjoyment of the act of worship (the emotion,euphoria and
	excitement that comes with your outward expression) outweighs
 	your love and mental/spiritual worship of God. 

	Like any gift and good thing from God, Satin can easily turn
	things around and we end up getting the cart before the horse.
	My advice to you would be to be careful that young christians
	or non-christians within your fellowship are not mislead and 
	might not see your worship for what it is and maybe distracted
	from worshiping God themselves.

	As you say there is nothing unscriptural about lifting your
	hands and dancing in worship but remember there are many 
	people who cannot control their emotions. Emotions carry people
	away from their own control and I think there is a great danger
 	in that. There are alot of emotionally unstable people around
	in this world. 

	I am pleased to hear of your recent findings and hope that
	God will continue to bless you.

	Erich
    

    All my children attend the AWANA program at a local Baptist church.  I
    highly recommend it!
    
    Just as a point of clarification, the Gifts of the Holy Spirit are in
    Romans 12.  I Corinthians 12 contains the Manifiestations of the Holy
    Spirit.  The NASB italicizes the word "gifts" in I Corinthians 12:1
    because it doesn't appear in the original MSS.  The original MSS refers
    to "spiritual things."
    
    Mike

I'm really sorry if what I wrote came across as condemning in any way.  I will
quickly and easily place myself at a prior time in my life into the camp I
labelled "phobia," and that was a place I was in for many a year.  I don't look
back on that as anything to be condemned, though, just as a place to be walked
through.  I would never think to condemn anyone who is concerned or fearful
about the gifts now.  "Phobia" is not meant as a condemning term, but to
indicate the truth that many people don't WANT to examine if the gifts should
be part of the church today.  Though a right balance is hard to reach, I think
we must try.

Biblically, the gifts are for us and for the building up of the body, but the
misuse of them has been a human failing from the beginning.  In both of the
major passages that refer to the gifts (Romans 12 and 1Cor 12), the context for
speaking of the gifts is to remind people not to think too highly of
themselves; to remind people that we are all parts of one body, equally to be
honored; and to remind people that love is far more important than gifts.  This
progression, common to both passages, speaks to the fact that the abuse of the
gifts existed even in the early church.  But Paul didn't say "You're abusing
the gifts, stop using them," He said "You're abusing the gifts, they must be
used in love and in submission to one another."

Paul

    .7
    
    Hi Nancy!  Nice to 'see' you!
    
    .9
    
    I, too, am sometimes skeptical that someones external behavior
    (very vocal, emotion-laden praise) is not in sync with their 
    internal 'state of mind'. Of course, that's not my business,(the Lord
    knows our hearts) but it does detract from my own worship/meditation 
    on the Lord. That being said, we are all individuals, therefore one
    particular style of worship may be more natural or comfortable for us.
    We should not be put under condemnation because we don't 'act' like
    the majority of our congregation.
    
    Karen
    
       
      

    For me personally, I am uncomfortable with the lifting of hands.
    Although I find reference to it in the Scriptures, I don't see what
    benefit is gained from doing such.  I guess there really doesn't have
    to be anything gained from it, but I'm not sure that I see a purpose in
    doing it.

    Now, I'm certainly not condemning anybody who does do it.  If they feel
    that the Holy Spirit is moving them to lift their hands to God, then
    great!  I'm just saying that for me it isn't "right".  I used to fit
    into the charis-phobia category.  So much so that my skin would crawl
    if someone near me would lift their hands.  However, God is working
    with me on this and it is becoming less and less a big deal.

    Let me provide some examples of why I can still have a problem with
    some charismatics:

    Years ago I was at a Carman concert in Massachusetts.  For those who
    are not familiar with Carman, he is an extremely charismatic member of
    the Assembly of God church.  Now, I had never even heard of Carman
    before, but a co-worker had invited my wife and I to attend the concert
    with her.  I must say that Carman is quite a performer!  He will have
    you laughing so hard that your sides will hurt and at other times you
    will have tears flowing down your face.  Anyway, during the concert he
    performed a song called "Lazarus" (the words of which would go nicely
    in the discussion of what happens after death).  Immediately, as soon
    as the intro music to the song started, this guy a couple of rows in
    front of us lifted his hands and started trembling all over.  He then
    proceeded to get out of his seat and walk slowly down the aisle towards
    the stage.  I lost sight of him so I don't know all that happened. 
    However, at the end of the song his friends, who had been sitting with
    him, had to go down to the front and bring him back to his seat.  Now, I
    admit that, even having never heard the song before, I had tears in my
    eyes upon hearing it.  By the way, the song is about Jesus resurrecting
    Lazarus from the dead.  OK, what happened to this guy.  Why would just
    the hearing of the very first notes of the song bring on this type of
    reaction?  I'm not sure, but it just didn't seem "right" to me.  Maybe
    the problem is with me?!

    Another example.  This last summer we went to a Dallas Holm concert
    that was held at one of the largest churches in town (if not, the
    largest).  This church is extremely charismatic.  Anyway, before Dallas
    came on stage, the worship team of the church led us in some songs for
    about 30 minutes.  Man, I couldn't believe it.  As soon as the music
    started, people were jumping up and down in the aisles, hands waving up
    in the air, and all manner of behavior that I had never experienced
    before.  Wow!!!  Well, I survived the half hour of praise music, and
    then Dallas was introduced.  Now, Dallas Holm is anything but
    charismatic.  However, he does have one song (which he sang with his
    wife that evening) where the words go, "Here we are in Your presence,
    lifting holy hands to you."  It was amazing.  It's too bad Pavlov
    couldn't have been there because the people behaved exactly as his dog
    had been trained to.  Every time Dallas sang the words "lifting holy
    hands to you", hands popped up in the air all over the room.  It was
    like a knee jerk reaction.  In other words, they didn't lift them prior
    to that verse being sung.  They would hear the words and then react to
    them.  Seemed kind of odd to me.

    One last experience.  I remember that I used to know a guy back at
    Digital who ran a christian book store in downtown Fitchburg.  Whenever
    I would see him, either at work or at the store, we would converse and
    every other word out of his mouth was "Praise God" or some such
    statement of praise.  I remember that it used to bother me somewhat
    because it didn't seem to matter what you were talking about, he would
    be praising God.

    Me (walking into his store): "Hi!  How are you?"

    Him: "Great, Praise God!  How are you doing?"

    Me: "Pretty good."

    Him: "Great!  Praise God!  Anything exciting going on in your life?"

    Me: "No, not really.  We just came from home.  Had a nice spaghetti
         dinner."

    Him: "Praise God!"

    Me: "?????"

    You get the picture!

    Anyway, I remember mentioning him at a bible study one time.  Not in a
    bad way, just commenting how he always behaved this way.  The pastor of
    our church turned to me and said, "You know, Ron, sometimes I wish I
    had some of that excitement in my attitude."  Shut me up right there on
    the spot!

    So, where am I going with this???  Beats me, I've just been typing away
    as the thoughts came into my mind!!!

    No, I think the point I am trying to make is that there are different
    types of charismatic behavior.  For some it is pure emotion and nothing
    else.  For others it is nothing but genuine reaction to their feelings
    for the Lord and His love for them.  In our church we have several
    members who frequently are lifting their hands during the song service.
    I can genuinely see in them a love for the Lord and responding to Him
    as such.  Be careful.

    As far as AWANA is concerned, I believe they are mainly looking out for
    the emotional charismatic behavior.

    By the way, AWANA is structured similar to the Boy and Girl Scouts
    where there are special shirts and patches and such to be earned.  My
    daughter had been involved in it in the past and loved it.

    Ron

Ha, Ha!

Thank you, Greg.  :-)

My wife did a sermon a few weeks ago about the subject of praise, and of our
forms and expressions of it.

One of her main texts was Psalm 148, which exhorts all of creation to praise
the Lord, including:

"Praise the Lord from the earth, you great sea creatures and all ocean depths,
 lightning and hail, snow and clouds, stormy winds that do His bidding,
 you mountains and all hills, fruit trees and all cedars,
 wild animals and all cattle, small creatures and flying birds,
 kings of earth and all nations, you princes and all rulers on earth,
 young men and maidens, old men and children." PS 148:7-12

So how does a fruit tree praise the Lord?  For one thing, it doesn't worry
about what the other fruit trees are doing, or what the flying birds or hills
are doing.  It is ITSELF before the Lord, and in the case of a fruit tree,
that's pretty quiet and contemplative, at least compared with lightning and
hail.  I think that most important part of praise is a lack of self awareness
and a lack of self-consiousness, a state of offering all that we are to our
creator.  And what that means differs for all of us.  For some, the person we
are is more outwardly exuberant, and an outward expression is what is natural
for us.  For others who are more contemplative, quieter praise is an expression
of who we are created to be.

In note 190 I entered a word study of the word Allelujah, which is the most
common word used for Praise in the Old testament.  It carries the connotation
of making fools of ourselves in our praise. Though I don't think it is
necessary that we actually make fools of ourselves, I think that an attitude of
not worrying if anyone thinks we're being foolish - either because we're
raising hands and they aren't or because we aren't and they are - is condusive
to praise.

I think the best possible atmosphere we can create for praise is where people
feel free to be themselves and don't feel self conscious about what that means.
That also means that we don't try to make our praise showy to other people,
which is where I think some of the wild praise you were talking about comes
from.  Even then, though, David dancing before the Ark was exuberant to the
point that his wife was very embarrased, but the Lord delighted in that
spontaneous praise.

Paul

I was one of the people who was very uncomfortable with the raising of hands. 
About 9 years ago, some people in our church started doing it very
occasionally, and it made me uncomfortable.  At least it certainly didn't seem
like it was for me.

Then I went to church on October 27, eight years ago, just about 10 hours after
our first son was born.  I came into the service late and sat up front, and the
first hymn was Holy, Holy, Holy.  We started to sing that hymn and I was lost
in praise - I was just overwhelmed by the majesty of our creator and of His
grace to me.  And in that moment, what felt totally right for me to do, what I
felt *called* to do, was raise my arms to Him in submission and praise.

I didn't do it.

I was right in the front row, and I felt very self-conscious.  For many years
after that I had no occasion where I felt called to raise hands in worship, and
I'm not now nor may I ever be a big-time hand raiser, though I feel more
comfortable with it now.  But in that moment, because of self consciousness, I
didn't do that which I was called by the Lord to do, I wasn't the person He
called me to be.

I pray that we may create an atmosphere of acceptance that allows us to praise
as the Lord calls us, and that not one person will either participate in, or
not participate in, an aspect of praise because of what other people will think.

Paul

><<< Note 306.16 by EVMS::PAULKM::WEISS "Trade freedom for security-lose both" >>>

>I pray that we may create an atmosphere of acceptance that allows us to praise
>as the Lord calls us, and that not one person will either participate in, or
>not participate in, an aspect of praise because of what other people will think.

    Paul,

    A great big AMEN to that!

    That reminds me.  While at that Carman concert, a very charismatic girl
    sitting next to my wife decided that my wife needed to praise God and
    so she grabbed my wife's hand and raised it for her!  Caught my wife by
    surprise.

    Ron

    Thank you, authors of notes .13 & .15 for expressing yourselves in
    the manner that I could not.  I have been in similar situations as 
    both of you.
    
    Could someone explain what AWAWH (?) stands for?
    
    Thanks,
    Karen
    

>                      <<< Note 306.20 by POWDML::MOSSEY >>>

>    Thank you, authors of notes .13 & .15 for expressing yourselves in
>    the manner that I could not.  I have been in similar situations as 
>    both of you.

    You are welcome!
    
>    Could someone explain what AWAWH (?) stands for?

    AWANA

	A pproved
	W orkmen
	A re
	N ot
	A shamed

    Ron

�                      <<< Note 306.19 by YIELD::GRIFFIS >>>
�    	BTW, if the notion of roots seems far out, please check out ...

You *can't* omit Jeremiah 17:7-8 ... ;-)

btw - Ron, have you ever read "I dared to call Him Father" by Bilquis
Sheik? -  About a high-born moslem woman living in Pakistan, who comes to
know the LORD, at personal risk to her (physical) life. 

Towards the end of the book, she travels by plane to Australia, to a large 
convention, which is, I guess, charismatic.  She is puzzled by the 
behaviour of many of the people on the plane, who react as you have found 
strange.  It's only when she gets to the convention that she realises that 
they are subconsciously trying to copy the behaviour and sense of 
atmosphere which accompanies a strong moving of the LORD.  In anticipation, 
like a kid excited over Christmas.

Without the LORD's moving, it rings false to those who don't realise that 
they are principally re-living the past in anticipation of the imminent 
future.

When the LORD moves powerfully amongst us, the motivation is from outside, 
not worked up, and the response is spontanious, not forced.  It's very 
different, but sometimes the compulsive 'Praise the LORD'ers don't realise. 
One of my favorite tape ministry teachers scatters them round somewhat at 
times, but his Bible teaching is so rich that it's worth it.  A bit like 
Psalm 136.  OK for most of the way, but you have to go steady to get true 
value from 'His love endures for ever" by about the 15th time... But it's 
verses 17-20 that you have to bne careful about, to make sure you're not 
inadvertently praising 'Sihon king of the Amorites' or Og king of Bashan'.

That sort of enthusiasm in scripture makes it easier for me to look at 
where people's motivation has come from at root, rather than stamp on the 
precise contect.

						God bless
							Andrew

        The Holy Spirit's first name is "Holy".

        From personal observation, and not to generalize or accuse, the
        search for experiential charisma seems to be inversely proportional
        to the search for holiness and obedience.

	Grace to you all,
		Tony
		

>    	the fruit of the Spirit, i.e., ( Galatians 5:22 ), and the gifts
>    	of the Spirit, ( 1 Corinthians 12-14 ).  i.e., that one grows out
    
    once again, I Cor. 12 *doesn't* contain the gifts of the Spirit. 
    They're *MANIFESTATIONS* of the Spirit!

    The word "gifts" doesn't exist in I Cor. 12:1 from the original MSS. 
    The gifts are in Romans 12.  I Corinthians 12 contains manifestations
    of the Holy Spirit.

    "Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit." - I Cor. 12:4

>    		  "the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every 
>    	man to profit withal" gives _every_ person _good_ Biblical 
>    	justification for telling the Good Lord:  Thankyou, Lord! You 
>    	said 'for _every_ man to profit withal', and I fit into the set 
>    	of 'every man', therefore, that must be for me, too!  Thankyou, 
    
    Greg,
    
    Since "we're" considering the details of the original language a lot in
    here, I would suggest a consideration of what the original language
    contains in the phrase "to profit withal".  From what I have seen, it
    would better be translated "for the common good", i.e., for the good of
    the body, and not for "private" enjoyment or personal benefit of the
    individual.
    
    Also, spiritual gift is not a smorgasborg -- we can't look at the
    available choices, and say "I'll take some of that1, and I *really*
    want to load up on that2, but I don't want any of that3."  This is
    because: 1 Corinthians 12:11 "But all these worketh that one and the
    selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally *as he will*."  It is
    the sovereign determination of the Holy Spirit as to what the "gift(s)"
    of an individual is/are to be.  It is our part to recognize and be
    excercised in the gift(s) that He gives us.
    
    Mark L. 

>    	Now, the Bible says, "ye may _all_ prophesy".  And, "let
>    	every man prophesy according to his faith"...  And, "I would
>    	that ye all spake in tongues"
    
    Greg,
    
    It appears that you have abbreviated the texts to suit your
    interpretation.  Let's look at what the *real* meaning of these texts
    is (or is not).
    
    Romans 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that
        is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the
        proportion of faith;
      7 Or ministry, let us wait on our ministering: or he that teacheth,
        on teaching;
      8 Or he that exhorteth, on exhortation: he that giveth, let him do
        it with simplicity; he that ruleth, with diligence; he that
        sheweth mercy, with cheerfulness.
    
    Romans 12 can never be used as a basis for anyone claiming by faith to
    "choose" to have the gift of prophecy, or that "every man" should
    prophesy.  It is an exhortation for *each* to be excercised in the gift
    that he has.  It is interesting that the gift is determined by the
    grace that is given.
    
    1 Corinthians 12:29 Are all apostles? are all prophets? are all
        teachers? are all workers of miracles?
     30 Have all the gifts of healing? do all speak with tongues? do all
        interpret?
     31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a
        more excellent way.
    
    1 Corinthians 14:5 I would that ye all spake with tongues but rather
        that ye prophesied: for greater is he that prophesieth than he
        that speaketh with tongues, except he interpret, that the church
        may receive edifying.
      6 Now, brethren, if I come unto you speaking with tongues, what
        shall I profit you, except I shall speak to you either by
        revelation, or by knowledge, or by prophesying, or by doctrine?
    
    
    In 1 Cor. 12 Paul is posing the questions in a hypothetical
    sense, and anyone reading can recognize that the answer to the
    questions is an obvious "No".  In 1 Cor 14, it doesn't say that all
    should prophecy, but rather that it would be better if all prophesied
    rather than all speaking in tongues.
    
    Mark L.

>    		"For ye may ALL prophesy one by one, that all may
>    	learn, and all may be comforted."
    
    Another text taken out of context (which results in a pretext).
    
    1 Corinthians 14:29 Let the prophets speak two or three, and let the
        other judge.
     30 If any thing be revealed to another that sitteth by, let the
        first hold his peace.
     31 For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all
        may be comforted.
    
    The "all" in verse 31 is clearly referring to "all the prophets", and
    not all the church.
    
    Mark

>    		Well... in .27 you said that 1 Cor. 12 doesn't contain
>    	the gifts of the Spirit, but rather they're *MANIFESTATIONS* of 
>    	the Spirit.  But... "pneumatikos charisma", or Spiritual gifts
>    	is indeed contained in 1 Cor. 12.  I do not want to seem nit
>    	picky, but it is important.  The manifestation of the Spirit 
>    	often operates through the gifts of the Spirit, just like the
>    	juice flows from the container.  Certain gifts are given to
>    	certain people so that they can minister to, build up, and
>    	edify the body of Christ.  To help others.  These gifts get
>    	transferred through laying on of hands, or by a faith trans-	
    
    Every believer is given *1* gift from Romans 12 (see later epistles by
    Paul where he always refers to your gift in the singular).  Your gift 
    marks your place and contribution to the body.  However, the 
    manifestations in I Corinthians 12 are available to any one of the Romans 
    12 gifts.  God will work through you, depending on the situation and God's 
    will, and manifest the Holy Spirit through you per the manifestations in I 
    Cor. 12.
    
    To think gifts are enabled through the "laying on of hands" is false
    doctrine.  Man has NOTHING to do with it.

>    			"wherefore let him that speaks in an unknown
>    	tongue pray that he may interpret".
    
    Sounds to me like Paul is saying that the one who was given the gift
    needs to excercise it according to the direction given in 1 Cor 14.

>    	I believe your interpretation is wrong, Mark.  Agabus had 3 
>    	daughters.  They *all* prophesied.  
    
    Sounds like Agabus' daughters had been given the gift of prophecy.
    Again, the "all" is referring to a particular group (Agabus'
    daughters), not all the church.
    
    To take every scripture that uses the word "all", and try to say that it
    is inherently speaking of all believers, would produce results that are
    laughable, at best.
    
    Again, the *obvious* answer to the list of questions ("Are all
    prophets") in 1 Cor 14 is "NO!" -- the context leaves no other
    interpretation.
    
    Mark L.

    Greg,
    
    I think the Scriptures are quite clear.
    
    Mark

    Great discussion.
    
    This conference has indead been a blessing for me in this issue, thanks
    to each and every one of you that have been praying for our church.
    
    The meeting went well, 2 1/2 hours worth, but that is not that unusal
    at this church (I once sat through 2 hours of business meeting to
    determine if the sign commitee could design the sign and order it or if
    they had to submit the final plans to the church for approval).
    
    The church seems unified in this, the major concern of many was that
    they would not be seen as "less" spiritual if they didn't raise hands
    etc.  One intresting side note, several of the people who stated their
    fear of what was happening kept saying how important this church was to
    them, how this church has helped them through tough times, how the
    church supported them, never mentioning how much they love the Lord, or
    how the Lord provided.  Intresting.
    
    The previous debate is one I have had in my mind before.  Is a person
    given a (some) gifts, and that is the one they have, or does the Holy
    Spirit give the gifts as needed by the body.  At my last church we took
    a test to see what our gifts were, I had a little problem with that, I
    don't like to put God in a box, and say this is what you can do.  (BTW
    my test came back I had the gift of Giving and Hospitality).  I
    personally feel I have at this time the gift of discernment, I can
    sense when people are hurting and separated from the Lord immediately
    when I meet them, I also can determine the sincerity of an individual
    usually upon initial meeting.
    
    thankyou all so much for the time you spent reassuring me, and the
    prayers.
    
    Glenn  Who_hopes_to_have_time_to_participate_more_often
    

    Glenn,
    
    Thanks *so* much for the feedback, it is marvelous to see how God moves
    in each of our lives giving us just what we need as we need it.
    
    I believe that God has given us natural talents, areas in which we excel, 
    that I believe are gifts as well.  I also believe he adds to those
    gifts as we give him the firstfruits of those talents.  I also believe
    that he can take away gifts that are not used for Him.
    
    But like you, I don't think we should limit ourselves to just areas we
    excel in for our service to God.  I believe the more surrendered we
    become, the more God allows our Spiritual gifts to enhance.  As I
    stated above, He knows what we need and he gives us what we need.
    
    Nancy

BTW, the answer to the question in I Cor 12 not only seems
obvious in English, it is explicit in the Greek.  There are
two ways of asking questions in Greek:  one which assumes a
negative response and one which assumes a positive response.
The assumption here is a negative response.

Collis

    The whole purpose behind I Corinthians 12 was to NOT GET HUNG UP ON THE
    GIFTS or MANIFESTATIONS of the HOLY SPIRIT. :-)
    
    Why?  So as not to cause a schism in the Body of Christ.
    
    So that every person in the Body of Christ would know they are 
    irreplaceable in His church.  And that no *person* was elevated over 
    another.  Sorta like how we try to treat our children so as to control 
    sibling rivalry.
    
    In Him,
    Nancy
    
    

    Here's a latecomers contribution.  The experiences of your church are
    becoming common, I think, as many of us want to experience all that God
    has for us.  If it's from God, I'll take it (knowing that this is a
    two-edged sword!)
    
    Here's a challenge:  The title of the note is half about gifts, half
    about intimacy with God.  I'd submit that the gifts get all the press -
    things like tongues, prophesy, etc. are flashy and some people want all
    the signs and wonders and manifestations of the Spirit that they can
    take.  What about intimacy with God?  Gifts, when they are used, can
    produce some intimacy, but to me, intimacy with God is found by study
    and meditation in His Word, and in the work of prayer.  I mean work! 
    Experiencing and worshiping God is great.  But developing intimacy with
    God is much more rewarding, and important.  That's what changes lives.
    
    - Don Randall

 Great note, Don, and welcome!





 Jim

    re .53
    
    Another way you can put it is this:  spiritual gift is no sign of
    spirituality.  The church at Corinth demonstrates the fullest exercise
    of spiritual gift of any church we see in the New Testament.  The
    church at Corinth was also the most carnal of any church we see in the
    New Testament.  We *can* conclude that gift does not equate to
    spirituality.  (Of course, we *can't* conclude that gift equates to
    carnality.)
    
    Mark L.

    Does anyone know if there is any point in the AWANA program where you
    have to sign a paper saying you don't "speak in tongues"?
    
    thanks,
    Mike

    I've never heard of such a thing occurring. I also asked a friend who's
    had AWANA at their church for several years, and he's never heard of
    such a thing. I would be *highly* surprised if it were true, and even
    at that would believe that it may be a policy implemented by some local
    church.
    
    	BD�

    The AWANA program is simply a curriculum, the program itself requires
    NOTHING to be involved.  The church presenting the program may require
    anything that suits them and add it to the curriculum.
    
    Nancy

>    <<< Note 306.59 by JULIET::MORALES_NA "Sweet Spirit's Gentle Breeze" >>>

>    The AWANA program is simply a curriculum, the program itself requires
>    NOTHING to be involved.  The church presenting the program may require
>    anything that suits them and add it to the curriculum.

    I'm not sure if that is true.  My understanding was that they require
    you NOT to be a charismatic church.  If that is true, it would stand to
    reason that they wouldn't allow speaking in tongues.

    Ron

    Ron... hmmm, I don't know.  My church dropped the program when they
    left the KJV. :-) :-)
    
    Nancy... we now have our own program called Pastor's Pals during the
    school year and Summer Chums, well during the summer. :-)  Same kind of
    thing, but our own curriculum.

 We use the program and still use the KJV.

>LILCPX::THELLEN "Ron Thellen, DTN 522-2952"          11 lines   2-DEC-1993 14:09
>--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>    I'm not sure if that is true.  My understanding was that they require
>    you NOT to be a charismatic church.  If that is true, it would stand to
>    reason that they wouldn't allow speaking in tongues.
>
>    Ron
>

	Sheesh, what if an angel appreared and started blabbing?  Would
they kick him out too?


Bob_who_prays_in_tongues_but_isn't_understood_even_when_he_speaks_in_English


P.S. No, I've never seen an angel (that I am aware of :) ), but I'm
pretty sure they mostly speak in Polish.

    
    >My church dropped the program when they left the KJV. :-) :-)
    
    
     That's too bad, I know of other churches who have done the same thing.
     More accurately stated AWANNA changed their memory verses from KJV to
     I think the NIV.  Actually if I am not mistaken both versions were
    offered.

Whew!  I'd misread that to mean that the *church* had left the KJV, not AWANA!

							Andrew

    A local pastor I recently spoke with said they dropped the program when
    they were asked to sign documents stating that they don't speak in 
    tongues.

    
    
    
    Hello,
    
    I am involved as a leader for the Awana program (also the author of the
    base note).  There is a charter that you must sign to do the Awana
    program.  It doesn't speak specifically of speaking in tongues, but it
    does ask you to sign that you are not involved in the Charismatic
    movement.  They don't define what this movement is exactly.  If it is
    speaking it tongues then our church may indead loose it's charter, if
    it based on the concept of a second baptism then we will not.  So far
    no problems from Awanas, keep praying.
    
    The Awanas offer the choice of KJV or NKJV, not NIV or NAS.  The
    material can be ordered in either or a mixture.  It is a tremendous
    program, and I would not let the version used, or a statement about
    Charismatic movement keep me from investigating the possibility.
    
    Glenn Sparks

    Glenn, that's a great surname for an AWANA person ;-)
    
    I agree it's a great program, and the manifestation of tongues
    shouldn't be a hinderance, but I wish they didn't feel that way.

    Yes, the kids get a great kick out of it.  Both my wife and I work with
    the "Sparkys" group.
    
    For the rest of you the Sparkys are ages 5-7 I think.
    
    You would be amazed at how much scripture these kids have memorized and
    understand.
    
    Glenn Sparky  Who_goes_by_Sparky_much_of_the_time