Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    I can't remember where it is the Bible, maybe somebody can help, but
    what verse states "the dead know nothing".  My question is this:
    What is the Catholic viewpoint on death?
    
    My second question is this?  Is it supported by scripture and if it
    is where.  Once we die, do we go straight to heaven or hell.
    
    I'm asking these questions in order to clarify for my behalf, others
    viewpoints.
    
    thanks, Kent

    It is my belief (not thoroughly backed by direct scripture references
    yet, but I'm working on it) that;
    
    1) when christians die, they experience no time between that instant
    and their presence in heaven,
    
    2) all christians will arrive in heaven at the same time for judgement
    (the gate will be sufficiently wide ;-) ),
    
    3) therefore the souls (or "essential" identities) of dead christians
    do not actually exist in our space and time, they are non-existent at
    this point, but will exist again at the time of judgement.
    
    God pulls them out of space/time when they die and puts them back in
    for judgement.  God is outside time, so he can do this.
    
    Scriptural yays or nays welcome...
    
    James
    
    (ps; off topic; tongue in cheek; We can pray to ask God to change a
    future event that hasn't happened yet, but can we (successfully) pray
    to God in order to enforce a past event that we might or might not have
    heard the details of?)

    
    re 236.
    
    thanks for commenting.

RE:   <<< Note 276.236 by AUSSIE::CAMERON "and God sent him FORTH (Gen 3:23)" >>>

>>    1) when christians die, they experience no time between that instant
>>    and their presence in heaven,

	Agreed, scripture says "to be absent from the body is to be present
	with the Lord".
    
>>    2) all christians will arrive in heaven at the same time for judgement
>>    (the gate will be sufficiently wide ;-) ),
>>    3) therefore the souls (or "essential" identities) of dead christians
>>    do not actually exist in our space and time, they are non-existent at
>>    this point, but will exist again at the time of judgement.

        I Don't think this is scriptural.  The rich man in Luke 16 died and
        awoke in Hell.  He lifted up his eyes and spoke, which implies time
        lapse (dx/dt).  He saw Lazarus in Abraham's bosom in Paradise.  His
        brothers were still alive on the earth, indicating that his time
        frame and ours is the same.  Another example, is Satan walking
        about the earth as a roaring lion seeking whosoever he may destroy,
        because he has little time left.  I don't remember where this
        scripture is, and I hope I have paraphrased it accurately.  Anyway,
        Satan is a spirit creature and exists in time.  I could be wrong,
        as I have never studied this, but it appears that God alone exists
        outside of time.

	Cheers,
		Tony

>        I Don't think this is scriptural.  The rich man in Luke 16 died and
>        awoke in Hell.
    
    Sorry to extend the digression, but I just wanted to point out one
    thing.  The KJV translates two words as "hell" -- the one being used
    in this passage is not referring to a permanent place of torment, but
    rather a temporal one.  To me, there is *nothing* in the passage to
    indicate that the rich man was not a believer, and some things to
    suggest that he may have been.  Take a careful look at the passage, and
    you may see some interesting possibilities.
    
    Mark L.

Re: 276.235 DEBUG::HUMPHRY -< Dead know nothing? >-

Kent, I was getting ready to answer this one too, but...  (You know the way 
it is!).  I also thought it was worth a topic of its own.  Maybe I'll move 
it, but now, at last, I'm, replying....

�    I can't remember where it is the Bible, maybe somebody can help, but
�    what verse states "the dead know nothing".  My question is this:
�    What is the Catholic viewpoint on death?

I can't answer for the Catholic viewpoint, but I can try to give some 
pointers here.  Your text "the dead know nothing" is in Ecclesiastes 9:5. 
Ecclesiastes was written by King Solomon, who lived in material wealth, but 
regressed to spiritual poverty..  It is recorded how he disobeyed the 
commands set for the king to obey in Deuteronomy 17:16-17, and it looks as 
though he must have ignored the command to write and read his own copy of 
God's law also, because of the way he turned after the false gods of his 
wives.

The book of Ecclesiastes was written from the perspective of humanity; not 
the perspective of eternity, which most of the Bible represents. This can 
be seen by the continual stressing of the phrase 'under the sun', which 
occurs some 26 times in the 12 chapters.  When Ecclesiastes is seen in this 
light, its apparent conflictions with the general message of the Bible can 
be understood.  And 'even' Ecclesiastes has many gleams which pierce the 
curtain :

3:11  "He has set eternity in the hearts of men..."
3:15 "God will call the past to account..."
5:1-7...

I'm not denigrating one of God's books! - Just saying we have to understand 
where it is coming from, to see its place in scripture.

�    My second question is this?  Is it supported by scripture and if it
�    is where.  Once we die, do we go straight to heaven or hell.

The most definitive statement on this I know is Paul's dilemma in 
Philippians 1:23

 "I am torn between the two: I desire to depart and be with Christ, which 
  is better by far; but it is more necessary for you that I remain in the 
  body...."

Paul's options are between 'here', and 'with Christ'.  No interim state.
ie - for the Christian it is straight to heaven.

This is also supported by Jesus' promise to the dying thief in Luke 23:43 
"I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

[Oh boy!!!  IMAGINE if He were to say that to me ... you...  fantaatic! ]

There are, of course, complications ;-}

In Luke 16:19-31 is the record of the rich man and Lazarus, who both die,
and go to torment, and 'Abraham's bosom' respectively (and also,
immediately) [ some take this as a parable, I take it as a record of the 
actual state of things then ].

I understand from other verses etc that the area known as 'Abraham's
bosom', or paradise, was opened up into heaven when Jesus rose from the
dead.  Whereas before Jesus' death and resurrection, saved people resided
in paradise, afterwards, they went straight to God's presence, according to
Paul's anticipation. 

The other principle indication is in Revelation 20:11-15, at the Great
White Throne judgement, where the unrighteous are brought from hell to the
judgement; death and hell are dispensed with, and the doomed then occupy
the lake of fire called gehenna, often misnamed hell. 

But then, that's a nonconformist view for a start...

						God bless
								Andrew

    
    Re: -1 Your right, this belongs in another topic if it doesn't exist
    already.

    I realize that this is not specifically Christian, so for those who aren't
    interested, please just use 'next unseen'.  
    
    I found a recently written book entitled, "The Tibetan Book of Living 
    and Dying" by Sogyal Rinpoche to be excellent.  The foreward is written
    by H.H. The Dalai Lama, and it was reviewed in the New York Times Book
    Review.  
    
    Cindy

    
    RE: .6
    Phillipians 1:23
    I am torn  between the two; I desire to depart and be with Christ,
    which is better by far; but, it is necessary for you think that I
    remain in the body.
    
    You quoted this as proof that the Christian goes straight to heaven
    upon death.
    
    I look at this verse in this manner.  It is true that Paul upon his
    death would see Christ, only after his resurrection at the time of
    Christ's second coming.  
    
    See how easy it is to get different meanings out of the same verse.
    It just depends what your doctrinal beliefs are.
    
    But anyway, my contention is that the dead (both good and evil) are
    temporarily asleep awaiting to be resurrected.  They are not in heaven
    or hell.  
    
    I sense a long discussion on this one.
    
    thank, Kent

    
    The rich man? In HELL is where he lifted his eyes - "BEING TORMENTED".
    Rich man asked: "Can Lazerus dip his finger in some ice water to cool
    my tounge - These FLAMES are tormenting me." (In my words).
    
    Laz. on the other hand, was carried away by the angels and placed in
    Abraham's bosom - (symbolically, resting place). Jesus also referred to
    his other friend Laz. as sleeping.
    
    Revelations views the Lake of Fire as 'The Second Death' - which "Hell"
    will e dumped into. So, those who don't accept Yahweh grace, through
    Jesus Christ, will make their bed in hell fire.
    
    Those who believe and accept Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior WILL
    have eternal life with the Creator. Those who fall asleep, (die) in Christ
    will have a little R&R until the rapture to meet Jesus in the air.
    
    
    Lorenzo
     

I hope most of us can agree that "what happens between death and the second
coming" is _not_ clear from the Bible, and that most of what will be posted
in this topic is what is known as "speculative theology".

Many people have said that the dead are "sleeping".  Of course, we all know
that "sleeping" is not "unconscious".  While asleep, most of us have dreams.
In those dreams, we can even be tempted, and our responses may not be actually
sinful, since they are not necessarily voluntary.

Thus, if the dead are sleeping, they could very well be dreaming, and those
dreams may very well be affected by outside influences.

Episcopalians in the United States (unlike their Anglican brethren in the
Church of England or the Anglican Church of Canada) pray in the "Prayer for
the Whole State of Christ's Church":

	And we also bless thy holy Name for all thy servants departed
	this life in thy faith and fear; beseeching thee to grant them
	continual growth in thy love and service...

What is this "continual growth in [God's] love and service?"

Certainly we must think about what heaven is -- a place where everything good
exists, and nothing bad.  So it seems that from the time of our death until
the second coming, we must be purged of everything bad, until we are able to
stand face to face with God and with out fellow Christians, in perfect love,
without any anger or resentment for things that other people may have done to
us or disagreements we may have had with them in this life, as well as of any
resentment we may have had about God's will for us.

I think C.S. Lewis has expressed this process as God saying "Come to me" and
the penitent person saying "Please let me wash up first."

/john

    John,
    
    I'm not familiar with Lewis' quote as you provided in .11, but if G-d
    extends an invitation, it would be foolish for man to refuse to be
    "cleaned up".
    
    Certainly, G-d knows man needs cleaning; enter Yeshua.
    
    Not being familiar with Anglican prayer, I can't comment on that view
    of Scripture one way or the other.  I guess I view the Scriptures as
    recognizing man's need of cleansing, and G-d Himself seeing to it that
    the job was done properly, once and for all.
    
    BTW - I fully agree that the Bible is somewhat unclear on the time
    between physical death and His return.  I liked your comment about
    "speculative theology".
    
    Thanks,
    
    Steve

    If we are asleep when we die, what happens to those who's body has been 
    mutilated or burned to ashes ? 


    Jim

    Re: .13
    
    Your soul rest in the etherial (spiritual) plane of existance - that is the
    existance beyond gross matter, (the earth). Sometimes it takes your
    soul a little longer to leave your body than others; depending on how
    attached you are to the material world / your body. That could be how
    Jesus was able to call Laz. back from the grave, because he knew the
    Laws of creation.
    
    Lorenzo

    
    Re: 13
    
    If we are asleep when we die, what happens to those who's body has been
    mutilated or burned to ashes?
    
    Good question:  When we die, once our physical bodies in the grave also
    begin to rot and thus return to dust?  What word can be used when you
    are dead and awaiting to be resurrected?.  Sleeping is the closest I
    can come to.  I agreed with the previous replies that this is
    speculative. 

    A few thoughts to add some fuel to the fire:  I agree that the place of
    eternal torment is reserved for the unbelieving.  However, I believe
    that there is a real possibility of a temporal state of suffering which
    a careless or disobedient believer may experience.  Consider:
    
    1 Corinthians 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the 
         day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and 
         the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 
      14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall 
         receive a reward. 
      15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he 
         himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 
    
    Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit
        saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of
        the second death.
    
    I do not believe that every believer qualifies as an "overcomer".  The
    overcomers are those who endure, are faithful, diligent.
    
    Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the
        thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
      6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
        on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests
        of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    
    A reading of the text indicates that the first resurrection is a
    resurrection of reward.  Nowhere does the Bible indicate that every
    believer will be included in this resurrection.  In fact, a careful
    reading will indicate that many of the rewards are conditional and can
    be forfeited through carelessness and/or disobedience.  Note that those
    in the first resurrection are granted "immunity" from any effect of the
    second death.  What is this second death?
    
    Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire.
        This is the second death.
    
    Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable,
        and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and
        all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with
        fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    
    As I read this, it seems that it will be necessary for some believers
    to undergo some amount of purification to purge away those things which
    are unacceptable.  Again, this is a temporal punishment, and there will
    be a loss associated with it.  However, it is to the end of entering
    into something glorious:
    
    Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first
        heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more
        sea.
      2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God
        out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
      3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the
        tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and
        they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and
        be their God.
      4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there
        shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall
        there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
     27 And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth,
        neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they
        which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
    
    
    Mark L.

>    If we are asleep when we die, what happens to those who's body has been 
>    mutilated or burned to ashes ? 
    
    It makes no difference, HALLELUJAH!  Whether we are the paragon of
    human physique, or the frailest, feeblest of the race.  Whether we are
    perfectly "preserved" by the undertaker, or whether we are buried at
    sea (consider what becomes of such a one).
    
    Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the
        firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within
        ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our
        body.
     24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for
        what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
     25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait
        for it.
    
    Philippians 3:20 For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also
        we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
     21 Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like
        unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is
        able even to subdue all things unto himself.
     
    Note: the translation "vile body" is really a poor one -- it would be
    better renderered "body of our humiliation".  Paul is referring to our
    present human frailty.
    
    Mark L.

I think that we can see in Revelation that there are at least some of the dead
in Christ in heaven, and I would assume that if some of the dead in Christ are
conscious in heaven now, they all are.

REV 4:2  And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in
heaven, and one sat on the throne.

REV 4:3  And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: 
and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.

REV 4:4  And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the 
seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they 
had on their heads crowns of gold.

REV 4:10  The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the 
throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns 
before the throne, saying,

REV 4:11  Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for 
thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

REV 5:5  And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the
tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose 
the seven seals thereof.

REV 5:8  And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty 
elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden 
vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

REV 5:9  And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, 
and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God
by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

REV 5:10  And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign
on the earth.

REV 5:11  And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the 
throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand 
times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;

REV 5:12  Saying with a loud voice, Worthy is the Lamb that was slain to receive 
power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing.

REV 5:13  And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the 
earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying,
Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the 
throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

REV 5:14  And the four beasts said, Amen. And the four and twenty elders fell 
down and worshipped him that liveth for ever and ever.

REV 6:9  And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls
of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they
held:

REV 6:10  And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and
true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

REV 6:11  And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said 
unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their 
fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, 
should be fulfilled.
=================

now this is before the Resurrection.  I don't think one could argue that the
living saints in heaven are either only symbolically alive, or that this period
is after the Resurrection.  Therefore I think this is strong evidence that the
dead in Christ are in heaven, worshipping God and consciously awaiting the
Resurrection.

Eric

    Eric,
    
    1) I see no evidence of there being other than angelic beings
    (excepting, of course, the Lamb) spoken of as being present in heaven
    in the texts you posted from Rev 4 and 5.
    
    2) What is interesting to note in Rev 6 is the character of those who
    are spoken of as being present in heaven that that time.  It never says
    that it was all those who were "dead in Christ".  In fact, it appears
    that it was a rather select company.
    
    Paul wrote "That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and
    the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his
    death; If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the
    dead.  Not as though I had already attained, either were already
    perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which
    also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus" (Phil 3:10-12)  The word for
    "resurrection" in verse 11 is literally "out-resurrection", which some
    translators have translated as an "earlier resurrection out from among
    the dead."  Paul seemed to think that this was something that needed to
    be strived for, something he was willing to pay the cost to obtain.
    
    Mark L.

The question is a good question and it deserves a more complete reply.

We can start with Eccl 9:5 - "For the living know that they will die, but
the dead know nothing."

This means exactly what it says.  When you are dead you are not alive, and
that you do not know anything because you are dead.

The New Testament Christians, even Christ himself, understood this.  Notice
the story of Lazarus.

After he had said this, he went on to tell them, "Our friend Lazarus has
fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.  His disciples replied,
"Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better." Jesus had been speaking of his
death, but his disiples thought he meant natural sleep.  So then He told
them plainly, "Lazarus is dead."

When Lazarus was asleep/dead he was in the grave - Hades or Hell in old
English.

The King James translators used the old English word "Hell" as a translation
for three Greek words: Hades, Gehenna and Tartaros.  Hades means the grave;
buried in the ground, Tartaros is used for a holding place for angels (2Pet
2:4), and Gehenna is the Valley of Hinnom just outside of Jerusalem.  This
was the place where the city of Jerusalem burned their trash -- the dump!

Look up 1 Cor 15:12-18, and notice especially verse 18, "Then those who have
fallen asleep in Christ are lost." The topic of this chapter is the
resurrection from the dead.

Now look at Verse 51, (this is really exciting!), "Listen, I will tell you a
mystery; We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed -- in a flash, in
the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For the trumpet will sound ,
the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed."

The reason we are Christians is because we have the hope of the resurrection
*from the dead*.  Otherwise we are the most foolish people on the earth.

Here is the sequence:

1.  Christ is resurrected first (1 Cor 15:20).

2.  Those who have fallen asleep/died in Christ will be resurrected (1Cor
    15:52, Rev 20:4).

3.  All who have ever lived will be resurrected back to life (Rev 20:5, Ez
    37:5).

The dead will be raised (point 2) at the return of Christ, as some of you
pointed out was in 2 Thes 4:16.  But where?  On earth, not in heaven.

>    1) I see no evidence of there being other than angelic beings
>    (excepting, of course, the Lamb) spoken of as being present in heaven
>    in the texts you posted from Rev 4 and 5.

Then who are the twenty-four elders?  I think it can be argued that they are
the Twelve Patriarchs and the Twelve Apostles.  They are not angels.  In fact,
Revelation specifically mentions that some of these who were in heaven were
martyrs, which means that they had to be human beings (but I suppose that's
Rev 6).

>    2) What is interesting to note in Rev 6 is the character of those who
>    are spoken of as being present in heaven that that time.  It never says
>    that it was all those who were "dead in Christ".  In fact, it appears
>    that it was a rather select company.

Granted they are select -- but the question is not, are some dead in Christ
conscious in heaven now, but are all of them, or none of them?  If you argue
that those who die in Christ are all asleep and unconscious, then this is
contradicted even by Rev. 6, despite the fact that it is a "select company."
It proves that at least some of the dead are conscious.  And if this is so, I
see no compelling reasons to insist that some of the dead in Christ are un-
conscious -- we've already disproved the exegesis that all who die in Christ
are unconscious, so there is no further reason to argue that _any_ are.

Eric

    
    In addition to reply number 20 I have this.
    
    1 Thes 4:13
    
  13) Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall
      asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope.
  14) We believe that Jesus died and rose again and we we believe that
      God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him.
  15) According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are
      still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will not
      certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.
  16) For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud
      command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call
      of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
  17) After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught
      up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
      And so we will be with the Lord forever.
    
      This correlates with
    
      1	Cor 15:51-52
    
  51) Listen, I tell you a mystery, we will not all sleep, but we will
      all be changed -
  52) in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet.  For
      the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable and
      the mortal with immortality.
    
      The "Last Trumpet" is the 7th trumpet in Revelation.  The scriptures
      listed describe the First Resurrection of those that belong to
      Christ.  The noter in .20 stated the dead know nothing until the
      time of thier resurrection, whether its the first,second or third.      

    Re: the 24 elders
    
    Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and
        four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one
        of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the
        prayers of saints.
      9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the
        book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast
        redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue,
        and people, and nation;
     10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall
        reign on the earth.
    
    I would point out that the rendering of the pronouns "us" and "we" in
    the above passages is probably not correct, and should be rendered
    "them" and "they" i.e., the 24 elders are not making a proclamation
    about themselves, but about the redeemed.
    
> ... we've already disproved the exegesis that all who die in Christ
> are unconscious, so there is no further reason to argue that _any_ are.
    
    Eric, I certainly hope that you do not take an exegetical stand that if
    somthing is spoken of any, that it can automatically be extrapolated to
    mean all.  To do so would open more cans of worms than all the fish in
    the sea could consume.
    
    Mark L.

Hi Kent - and Jim R, in .13...

My point raised about Paul's statement in Philippians 1:23 was that Paul 
saw the two places as alternatives for the next moment.  'depart = be with 
Christ, which is far better", or the alternative, "remain in the body" - ie 
for further service.  If 'depart' meant 'hang around waiting until the 
resurrection of the body', there wouldn't be the choice as he stated it.

I believe there may be some confusion around where we are between death and 
the resurrection of the body.  We 'are' the soul, which lives in the body 
(from Genesis 2:7).  The soul lives in the body which is the vehicle for 
this life.  1 Corinthians 15 and 2 Corinthians 5 are key passages on the 
transition.  2 Corinthians 5:2-4 says 
  "...we groan, longing to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling, because
   when we are clothed we will not be found naked.  For while we are in 
   this tent, we groan and are burdened, because we do not wish to be 
   unclothed, but to be clothed with our heavenly dwelling so that what 
   is mortal will be swallowed up by life."

ie - the physical body is our mortal 'home', but we will have a heavenly 
'home' too.  This is related to our earthly body (so be careful how you
use it!), but is not that same flesh.  This is clarified in 1 Corinthians 
15, from verse 35.

:42 "...so it will be with the resurrection of the dead ... sown a natural 
body, raised a spiritual body.." vs 50-53 stress this also :

1 Corinthians 15:50-53
  "Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom 
   of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.  Behold, I shew you 
   a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,  In a 
   moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet 
   shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be 
   changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal 
   must put on immortality."

ie in this era, the 'real us' goes straight to the LORD's presence on
death, to await the next stage of events, when we will receive the 
spiritual body [related to our physical body], in which we will dwell for 
eternity.

My view corresponds to yours on the last trumpet correlation, but there 
are, of course, other views ;-)

Just to confuse the issue further ( ;-) ) the verses you quote from 1
Corinthians 3:13, Mark, concern a believers works, and are therefore
related to rewards, rather than salvation.  The believer isn't subjected to
suffering in order to supplement the work that the LORD Jesus completed on
the cross, or to sort of etch his image in.  "When we see Him we shall be 
like Him" (1 John 3:2).

							God bless
								Andrew

    Re: .24 (Andrew)
    
    I realize that we've already introduced a tangent into this stream,
    that of death and resurrection.  However, I am kind of puzzled, trying
    to conceive how it is possible for the unressurrected to coexist with
    the resurrected until they (the unresurrected) are resurrected. 
    (Whew! :-) )
    
    I realize that 1 Cor. 3 is speaking of reward, not salvation.  I
    believe in the gift of eternal life, and I don't believe that God is an
    Indian giver (hmm, maybe that statement's not PC any more).
    
    Re: .22 (Kent)
    
    I see nothing in the Scriptures to indicate that *all* believers will
    "participate" in the first resurrection.  In fact, I see clear
    indication to the contrary.  The first resurrection is a resurrection
    of reward, and not all believers will receive that reward.
    
    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and
        judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that
        were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God,
        and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither
        had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and
        they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
      5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years
        were finished. This is the first resurrection.
      6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection:
        on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests
        of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
    
    Part of the reward for the faithful is to reign in the millenial
    kingdom.  It is explicit that there are those who are not raised at
    this time, who will wait until after the millenial kingdom to be raised
    (to the era of the eternal kingdom).  Note that at the second
    resurrection there is a determination as to whether one's name is
    written in the book of life or not:
    
    Revelation 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before
        God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which
        is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things
        which were written in the books, according to their works.
     15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast
        into the lake of fire.
    
    Now, consider those who have already been reigning in the millenial
    kindgom.  They, too, will enter into the eternal kingdom, but their
    entrance will be of a different nature -- they are entering via the
    time of reward.  Compare this with:
    
    2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make
        your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye
        shall never fall:
     11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into
        the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
    
    It appears that the faithful will have an "abundant" entrance into the
    everlasting kingdom, as if it is clear and open to them, and they enter
    in (to my thinking) ladened with the honors from their time of rewards.
    
    Mark L.

    
    re: .25
    
    Hi Mark, how was Colorado?  Let me see if I can claify things for
    you better regarding my previous entry.
    
    What I mean by the First Resurrection is this, at the second coming
    of Chirst, those who have died in Christ through the ages will be
    resurrected to be with Christ.  Together with those who are presently
    alive and are his will reign with Christ during the millenium.
    What's stated in Rev. 4-6 is the future of those saints that partake
    in the first resurrection.
    
    Now Rev 20:5 refers to those who have died, meaning all of mankind.
    
    Is this clearer?

Hi Mark...

� However, I am kind of puzzled, trying to conceive how it is possible for
� the unressurrected to coexist with the resurrected until they (the
� unresurrected) are resurrected. (Whew! :-) ) 

I'm not at all sure that *I* followed that! ;-)  It doesn't sound at all
like what I was trying to say! 

I'll try to paraphrase how I understand what 1 Corinthians 15 &
2 Corinthians 5 are saying :

On death we leave our physical bodies (contraversial stuff here! ;-)

We (spirit) reside with the LORD, and eventually receive our new, eternal
'resurrection' bodies, as the LORD Jesus returns to earth for the rest of
the saved.


Interesting ... we also have a different perspective on 'overcomers'. These
are flagged as receiving particular rewards in each of the letters to the
churches in Revelation 2-3.  To identify who 'overcomers' are, I turn back 
a couple of pages to where John also wrote in 1 John 5:4-5

 "...everyone born of God overcomes the world.  This is the victory that
  has overcome the world, even our faith.  Who is it that overcomes the
  world?  Only he that believes that Jesus is the Son of God." 

 - so I believe that all true Christians are 'overcomers'.


Kent,

I recently read a WWCG article which expounds 3 resurrections, the second 
being a 'second chance' for those who didn't hear the gospel in their 
lifetime.  I don't want to raise a red herring, nor confuse the issue - 
rather to understand the ground we're coming from.  I do not subscribe to 
'the second of the three' - but is that still your understanding?

							Andrew

    
    Re: -1
    
    Yes thats correct.  
    
    We believe everyone who has lived will get a chance at salvation.
    They who have died will get this chance at the end of the millenium
    when they are resurrected.  This what we call the second resurrection.
    
    What really is the purpose of the millenium?  It is not to lay around
    doing nothing relishing our rewards.  One of its purpose we believe
    is to prepare the Earth for the billions of people who have died to
    be resurrected.
    
    You are not opening any red herrings, this is just a doctrinal discus-
    sion between you and me, thats all.  We can both benefit from each
    others viewpoints.
    
    regards, Kent

Some back about dismembered bodies and such:  I saw NT references, but want
to add this OT reference about the power of God.  Nothing is too difficult.

Ezekiel 37:1  The hand of the LORD was upon me, and carried me out in the
spirit of the LORD, and set me down in the midst of the valley which was full
of bones,
  2  And caused me to pass by them round about: and, behold, there were very
many in the open valley; and, lo, they were very dry.
  3  And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O
Lord GOD, thou knowest.
  4  Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O
ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD.
  5  Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I will cause breath to
enter into you, and ye shall live:
  6  And I will lay sinews upon you, and will bring up flesh upon you, and
cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and ye shall live; and ye shall
know that I am the LORD.
  7  So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a
noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone.
  8  And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and
the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them.
  9  Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and
say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath,
and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.
 10  So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and
they lived, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army.
 11  Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of
Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are
cut off for our parts.
 12  Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O
my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your
graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.
 13  And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O
my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
 14  And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you
in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and
performed it, saith the Lord.

    
    Re: .29
    
    Excellent Point.

      Hi,
    
        Just want to suggest that the cross and what took place 
        there is also considered.
    
        One other interesting point is that Paul does equate there
        being no hope without the resurrection.  What is resurrection?
        Is it the uniting of a body with an already alive 'soul' or
        is it the raising of death to life?  When Peter spoke of David
        in Acts, did he say that David's body was in the grave or did
        he say that _David_ was in the grave?
    
        Does the Bible ever say the unsaved will live forever?  Nope.
    
        Just a couple thoughts on a subject that's been discussed a 
        lot of times!!
    
                                                 Tony

>        Does the Bible ever say the unsaved will live forever?  Nope.

Let's not start this again.
(It says they will die forever.)

	Welcome back Tony..... :-)



Glen

      Thanks Glen!
    
        I hope I'm up for it!
    
                                         Tony

                          Today is November 2nd
                              All Souls' Day
                                    or
                The Commemoration of all Faithful Departed

Because of a generous gift from a parishioner, the Parish of The Advent
has been able to arrange for a 20-piece orchestra to accompany soloists
and the Choir of the Church of the Advent in a performance of the Mozart
Requiem in the context of the Liturgy of All Souls' Day, tonight at 6:30 pm.
We are located at 30 Brimmer Street in Boston.

I prepared the following information for some friends who are not Anglicans
who plan to attend, and I thought I would share it with you.

Classical requiem masses differ from other classical masses in a number
of ways:  1. A requiem includes the Kyrie, Sanctus, Benedictus qui venit,
and Agnus Dei, but neither the Gloria nor the Creed.  These parts of the
mass are known as the "Ordinary".  2. The words of the Agnus Dei are changed
from "have mercy upon us" to "grant them rest".  3. The composer provides
musical settings for some or all of the mass Propers: the Introit, the
Gradual, the Tract, the Sequence, the Offertory, and the Communion.  The
Mozart Requiem (and possibly most classical requiems; I'm not an expert
in this area) does not include the Gradual and Tract.  When compositions
for propers are not provided, the propers are sung by the choir in their
traditional plainsong modes, as with other masses.  The times from one
particular recording of the Mozart Requiem are shown below.

A requiem is a service of thanksgiving (eucharistia) to God for his
redemption of earthly lives that have come to an end.  It is an offering
in which joy and sorrow are mixed, for while we say an earthly farewell,
we know that the dead live in Christ.  In the Holy Eucharist, which
transcends all of time and space, the Church on Earth is joined with
the Church in Heaven, and we join our prayers and praises to theirs.
We pray for them, as we believe that they pray for us, so that all may
be strengthened in their lives of service to God.

The basic structure of a Requiem Mass and an English translation follows:

Introit:	Rest eternal grant unto them, O Lord:
		and let light perpetual shine upon them.
[5:26]		Thou, O God, art praised in Zion, and		(Psalm 65)
		unto thee shall the vow be performed in
		Jerusalem: thou that hearest the prayer,
		unto thee shall all flesh come.
		Rest eternal grant unto them, O Lord:
		and let light perpetual shine upon them.

Kyrie:		Kyrie eleison		Lord, have mercy upon us.
		Christe eleison		Christ, have mercy upon us.
[3:08]		Kyrie eleison		Lord, have mercy upon us.

[Opening prayer, known as a "collect" in Anglican usage.]
[Epistle reading, typically 1 Cor 15:51-57]

Gradual:	Rest eternal grant unto them, O Lord:
		and let light perpetual shine upon them.
		The righteous shall be had in everlasting	(Psalm 112)
		remembrance: he will not be afraid of any
		evil tidings.

Tract:		Absolve, O Lord, the souls of all the faithful
		departed from all the chains of their sins.
		And by the help of thy grace, may they be worthy
		to escape the judgement of condemnation and
		enjoy the bliss of everlasting light.

Sequence:	Day of wrath, and doom impending,		(Dies Irae)
		  David's word with Sibyl's blending:
[23:46]		  Heaven and earth in ashes ending.
		O what fear man's bosom rendeth,
		  When from heaven the Judge descendeth,
		  On whose sentence all dependeth.
		Woundrous sound the trumpet flingeth,
		  Through earth's sepulchres it ringeth,
		  All before the throne it bringeth.
		Death is struck, and nature quaking,
		  All creation is awaking,
		  To its Judge an answer making.
		Lo! the book exactly worded,
		  Wherein all hath been recorded,
		  Thence shall judgement be awarded.
		When the Judge his seat attaineth,
		  And each hidden deed arraigneth,
		  Nothing unavenged remaineth.
		What shall I, frail man, be pleading?
		  Who for me be interceding,
		  When the just are mercy needing?
		King of Majesty tremendous,
		  Who dost free salvation send us,
		  Fount of pity, then befriend us.
		Think, kind Jesu, my salvation,
		  Caused thy wondrous Incarnation,
		  Leave me not to reprobation.
		Faint and weary thou hast sought me,
		  On the Cross of suffering bought me,
		  Shall such grace be vainly brought me?
		Righteous Judge! for sin's pollution
		  Grant thy gift of absolution
		  Ere that day of retribution.
		Guilty, now I pour my moaning,
		  All my shame with anguish owning:
		  Spare, O God, thy suppliant groaning.
		Like the sinful woman shriven,
		  And the dying thief forgiven,
		  Thou to me a hope hast given.
		Worthless are my tears and sighing:
		  Yet, good Lord, in grace complying
		  Rescue me from fires undying.
		With thy sheep a place provide me,
		  From the goats afar divide me,
		  To thy right hand do thou guide me.
		When the wicked are confounded,
		  Doomed to flames of woe unbounded,
		  Call me, with thy Saints surrounded.
		Low I kneel, with heart-submission:
		  See like ashes my contrition!
		  Help me in my last condition!
		Ah that day of tears and mourning!
		  From the dust of earth returning,
		  Man for judgement must prepare him.
		Spare, O God, in mercy spare him:
		  Lord all-pitying, Jesus blest,
		  Grant them thine eternal rest.  Amen.

[Gospel reading, typically John 5:25-29]
[Sermon]
[Prayers of the People]
[Confession of sin and absolution]
[The Peace]

Offertory:	O Lord Jesus Christ, King of Majesty, deliver
		the souls of all the faithful departed from the
[10:05]		hand of hell, and from the pit of destruction:
		Deliver them from the lion's mouth, that the
		grave devour them not; that they go not down
		to the realms of darkness: but let Michael,
		the holy standard-bearer, make speed to
		restore them to the brightness of glory:
		Which thou hast promised in ages past to
		Abraham and his seed.  Sacrifice and prayer
		do we offer to thee, O Lord: do thou accept
		them for the souls departed, in whose memory
		we make this oblation: and grant them, Lord,
		to pass from death unto life: which thou hast
		promised in ages past to Abraham and his seed.

[The Great Thanksgiving begins with the Sursum Corda: Lift up your hearts]

Sanctus:	Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God of Hosts:
[1:56]		Heaven and earth are full of thy glory.
		Glory be to thee, O Lord Most High.
Benedictus:	Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
[5:47]		Hosanna in the highest.

[The Prayer of Consecration]
[The Lord's Prayer]
[The Fraction]

Agnus Dei:	O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
		  grant them rest.
[3:40]		O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
		  grant them rest.
		O Lamb of God, that takest away the sins of the world,
		  grant them rest eternal.

[Invitation to Communion: Behold the Lamb of God]

Communion:	May light eternal shine upon them, O Lord:
		With thy Saints for evermore: for thou art gracious.
[6:29]		Rest eternal grant unto them, O Lord:
		and let light eternal shine upon them:
		With thy Saints for evermore: for thou art gracious.

[Reception of Communion: all baptised Christians may come forward to
 kneel at the altar rail and receive Christ's Body and Blood; noone who,
 for any reason, does not wish to come forward is required to do so.]
[Postcommunion Prayer]
[Dismissal]

Jesus, Son of Mary,                     Often were they wounded
 Fount of life alone,                    In the deadly strife;
Now we hail thee present                Heal them, Good Physician,
 On thine altar throne.                  With the balm of life.
Humbly we adore thee,                   Every taint of evil,
 Lord of endless might,                  Frailty and decay,
In the mystic symbols                   Good and gracious Saviour,
 Veiled from earthly sight.              Cleanse and purge away.

Think, O Lord, in mercy                 Rest eternal grant them,
 On the souls of those                   After weary fight;
Who, in faith gone from us,             Shed on them the radiance
 Now in death repose.                    Of thy heavenly light.
Here 'mid stress and conflict           Lead them onward, upward,
 Toils can never cease;                  To the holy place,
There, the warfare ended,               Where thy saints made perfect
 Bid them rest in peace.                 Gaze upon thy face.