Conference yukon::christian_v7

    AMEN Jim!!!,
    
    In the last several years my participation in this conference has also
    been reduced for many of the same issues Jim raised, though I'm not
    Catholic. But I have felt the brunt of not being "the right faith" from
    all different positions. Jim's right, this attitude of attack and the
    need to change people to "the right faith" (ie. your own faith) is
    wrong. Change doesn't come via compromise but by showing the love of
    God through our words, actions and examples. This conference has not
    been for me a place of refuge, rest, peace, and love instead I've
    "walked away" from it feeling more batter and abused than loved and
    cared about over the years. 
    
    Now don't get me wrong, please!, there are some very loving and caring
    people within this conference. BUT there are also a lot of people
    (people who profess to be believing Christians) who just love to bring
    in strife, conflict, and all sorts of bad emotions. I've often wondered
    how they believe they can truely be a witness for the Lord when the
    example of their walk leaves many battered and bruised people behind. 
    
    Well that's my 2 cents. Jim thanks for raising this issue. 
    
    nancy

You have a very valid point here Jim.  I am going to think on it deeply.
Fortunately for me, this notes conference is not the only bridge I have 
with people of other Christian churches: Catholics, Protestants, and others.
So that though I've read, and even written in some of the arugmentive notes 
a little bit, I have still been able to see what brings us together - faith 
in God, Jesus the Messiah promised in the O.T. and an adherence to the Bible 
as God's revelation to us.

I'm taking a class on prophecy right now which is taught by a professor from 
Gordan-Conwell Seminary.  Something he has stressed is do not base fellowship 
on interpretations of prophecy - do not make adherence to your particular
viewpoint a test of whether or not you will fellowship with someone else.  I 
think the same can be applied to some of the doctrinal arguments that go on in
here.  Our fellowship with one another should be based on God's love for us
and nothing less.

Thanks for your note.

Leslie

    
    Even though I am not Catholic, I agree with the base note and previous
    replies.  These attitudes are part of human nature, not of love as in
    Christian love.  
    
    I guess this one of the problems of having so many denominations in
    the world teaching different doctrines, it can only lead to wrong at-
    titudes between denominations.  

>    If there is something you disagree with Catholicism, Mormonism, Jehovah 
>    Witnesses or other religious expressions, be silent and pray about it. 
>    God will show you the way to handle it in time, HIS way. Jesus doesn't 
    
    We're also called to defend the truth.  The Watchman in Ezekiel also
    gives us a picture of God leading a messenger to warn the flock of
    untruths.  I refuse to whitewash the truth in the spirit of valuing
    differences and trying to get along with other faiths.  Christian
    denominations are one thing.  Cults are another.
    
    But no matter what I say, I'm sure to stick out like a sore thumb. 
    This world will continue to walk down this path in order to fulfill the
    prophecy of the Great Harlot in Revelation.
    
    Mike

    
    I think Jim's comments are insightful.  However, I believe that the
    conference has apparently been fairly successful in achieving its
    goals. This is proven, in part, by the "conflicts" that have arisen as
    the standard of the Bible has been kept central to all discussions.
     
    As long as Protestants and Catholics are both committed to Jesus Christ
    there will be conflicts about the extent of that commitment and about
    the ways in which that commitment is expressed.  It is only when either
    lose their commitment that conflict will cease, in my opinion.
    
    I've been around in this conferences for a long time now.  I believe it
    has improved with each version in content and in spirit. 
    
    Unfortunately, it does seem that people are often one-dimensional in
    their relationship to other Christians.  Also, there seems to be any
    number of reasons people participate here, some inscrutable.  At any
    rate, our resistance to conflicts is not good for us, we should let 
    our ideas about God be challenged and be like the Bereans.  We should
    struggle with our beliefs and attitudes until breakthrough, seeking
    God's will and not our own.  Our relationships with other Christians,
    regardless of the sect, are integral in this process.
    
    rambling,
    jeff

Hi Jim, 

Thank you for that refreshing reflection.  I have seen it coming both ways,
where things which are offensive to many are entered, like dripping wearing
away at a stone ;-} 

I agree that there can be discussions where differences which are not
essential salvation issues are honestly aired in a non-confrontational way,
and both sides continue to believe as they did before, but are left with a
warmth to the 'other' side, as they understand a little better where they
are coming from, and their love for the LORD.  Those are of infinitely more
value than discussions which leave someone hurt, whether anyone is
persuaded or not. 

I believe we have had discussions of the beneficial sort here, but they are
difficult to ensure, because people (not necesarily the original
participants) easily feel threatened if things they believe as important
(if not quite essential) are not defended rigorously, at the expense of
peace between fellow-believers.

We all need to be ready to search ourselves before the LORD, and be ready 
to apply Romans 14:13 in our communications:

"...let us stop passing judgement on one another.  Instead make up your 
mind not to put any stumbling block or obstacle in your brothers way..."

					In Jesus' love
							Andrew

    I've refrained from comment in here for several reasons... one Jim, I
    disagree with you about the conference.  Two, I don't believe that we
    aren't allowed to struggle with our faith... iron sharpens iron...
    and Three.. I don't wish to cause more hurt feelings.  But I feel I
    must comment... so here goes.
    
    I know that my participation in here has at least offended one person,
    I also know that my participation has at least helped one person.  And
    beyond a shadow of a doubt this conference even with its flaws has
    helped me beyond words can describe.
    
    Two years ago, fresh out of marriage, wounded in my soul in many ways,
    I came into this conference to share .. and be strengthened at work. 
    I've suffered dreadfully from the need to be accepted in the past.  And
    this fear of rejection [need to be accepted] kept me quiet about my
    Christianity.  Oh, a few knew who were Christians... but my close co-workers
    mostly saw me as just like them... no difference... even to the point
    of my joining in on questionable activities.  To most in here those
    activities were not bad ones.. I mean I drank a glass of wine at a
    banquet... I boogalooed with the band... 
    
    In the two years I've been in here... my faith has strengthened, my
    testimony is more consistent and my love for the Lord has grown 
    incredibly.  I no longer worry a��bout being accepted or rejected.  I 
    just do as the Spirit leads.
    
    Also, let me bring a point that this conference is not a church or
    rented hall... and there are believers and non-believers who peruse
    and/or participate.  We are all co-workers, we are not all one church's
    members [tho' one day we will be], and as a result each individual must
    take responsibility for how they participate... but to name a topic
    "*conference* is not conducive to Spiritual Growth" is to wave too
    big a brush.  If it said, This Conference is not Conducive to MY
    Spiritual Growth.. I'd have no beef with it.  I may not like it, but I
    certainly wouldn't feel as offended.
    
    Your note content was marvelous... your topic choice imho was/is an
    insult to those of us who pour our hearts into this place in hopes that
    our experiences and our questions will edify another.  I think of poor
    Charlie who came in here with his hurt,�� I think of Jim Henderson who
    came in here hoping to find his way back to Christ, I think of my own
    wounded self who has been strengthened....and many others.
    
    Individual conflicts in this diverse an environment in a religious
    notesfile is bound to have its flames... its inevitable.  Jim, 
    ... I asked you a question that was very honest about my
    ex-husband's beliefs that he claims he was taught in the catholic
    church...that positions him in place of possible eternal peril.  That was
    ignored...I think because of the intensity of the discussion... but if
    you would go back read that note... and offline answer its questions, I
    would appreciate it.  I am concerned about Rafael, regardless of our
    divorce, he is the father of my children and I care deeply about him.
    
    I know we disagree... and I understand your sentiment about feeling
    bashed...but I hope you'd take a broader look at the good that
    struggles can have... even doctrinal struggles.  
    
    In His Love,
    Nancy
    

	Love can be confrontational.
	People in this conference are praying for one another.
	We are called to seek the truth.

	"Faithful are the wounds of a friend, but the kisses of an enemy
	are deceitful."

	Peace to you all,
		Tony
		

	I have to agree with Nancy.  I find the title of this topic
	quite stinging.  

	I have found this version of the conference to be much freer
	from some of the doctrinal debates of the past.  Granted, there
	are one or two topics that do get into doctrinal debate, but as
	said before, iron sharpens iron.

	Through this conference, I have been led to examine some of the
	teachings I have had, and have stopped listening to certain
	teachers where there just wasn't a peace about what they were 
	preaching.  If the notes hadn't been entered, I may not have
	even questioned the teachings.  

	This group *is* made up of individuals, and the opinions expressed
	by one are not to be assumed to be the opinions of all.

	Agreed, not all entries are beneficial, but I wouldn't trash the
	whole group/conference based on individual opinions.

	Karen

    I read a prime example of what I was trying to convey in my last entry
    here.  Some of you may recall me mentioning the Parliament of World
    Religions meeting in Chicago during the month of September.  There have
    been some interesting developments out of this meeting, all of which I
    take very seriously.
    
    "To believe one has the only true faith can cloud rational thinking." -
    Dalai Lama, September 10, 1993 - Parliament of World Religions meeting
    
    "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father,
    but through me." - Jesus Christ, John 14:6
    
    Over 6,000 people from 120 different religions were at this meeting. 
    Not only major religions, but various sects, neo-pagan groups, and even
    witches.  Each evening a religion were perform a ritual to "enlighten"
    the attendees.  One evening, the Wiccans performed a full moon ritual.
    
    This is prophecy being fulfilled.  The religions of the world will
    unite under a 1-world church, which is called in Revelation 17:1, "The
    Great Harlot."  In order for this to happen we will continue to hear
    such things as "religious diversity" among all faiths, "paradigm
    shifts toward global consciousness", and zero tolerance for those
    believing that their faith is the only true faith.  Doctrine will be
    thrown to the wind.
    
    According to news reports, this meeting laid the groundwork for a
    "United Nations of Religions."  Dalai Lama, whose title means "Ocean of
    Wisdom" presented the closing address.  He cautioned against all forms
    of fundamentalism before declaring the quote above.  He said, "Under
    certain circumstances...there is a danger if you have a fundamentalist
    attitude.  Because this religion involves emotion...there is a danger
    if someone gets so much emotion it hardly leaves any room for reason."
    
    Dalai Lama wants diversity among all faiths, which denies the
    "fundamental" doctrines of the Bible.  There are at least 16 references
    in the NT to "the" faith (i.e., singular - Jude 3).  John 14:6 expands
    on the emphasis of singularity.  
    
    The "Ocean of Wisdom" is all wet.  He and every religion, philosophy, 
    sect, Satan worshipper, witch, and warlock there deny that what the God 
    of the Bible says is true.  
    
    This is why I refuse to compromise The Truth, The Way, and The Life on
    any level and in here.  I will watch them fulfill Revelation 17:1.
    
    Mike

    
    Re.11
    
    I was hoping someone would mention the Second Parliament of World
    Religions here.
    
    The First Parliament of World Religions was held 100 years ago in 1893. 
    One of the participants was Swami Vivekananda, and below are two of his
    speeches to the Parliament - his first and last (in next message.)
        
    Does anybody have a record of who represented Christianity and what
    they said back at the former gathering?                           
    
    Cindy
    
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    
    
Swami Vivekananda:  1893 Chicago Addresses 
------------------------------------------

Swami Vivekananda at the First World Parliament of Religions, Chicago

11th September 1893 - Response to Welcome

"Sisters and Brothers of America,

It fills my heart with joy unspeakable to rise in response to the warm 
and cordial welcome which you have given us.  I thank you in the name of 
the most ancient order of monks in the world; I thank you in the name of 
the mother of religions; and I thank you in the name of the millions and 
millions of Hindu people of all classes and sects.  My thanks, also, to 
some of the speakers on this platform who, referring to the delegates 
from the Orient, have told you that these men from far-off nations may 
well claim the honour of bearing to different lands the idea of 
toleration.  I am proud to belong to a religion which has taught the 
world both tolerance and universal acceptance.

We believe not only in universal toleration, but we accept all religions 
as true.  I am proud to belong to a nation which has sheltered the 
persecuted and the refugees of all religions and all nations of the 
earth.  I am proud to tell you that we have gathered in our bosom the 
purest remnant of the Israelites, who came to the southern India and 
took refuge with us in the very year in which their holy temple was 
shattered to pieces by Roman tyranny.  I am proud to belong to the 
religion which has sheltered and is still fostering the remnant of the 
grand Zoroastrian nation.  I will quote to you, brethren, a few lines 
from a hymn which I remember to have repeated from my earliest boyhood, 
which is repeated by millions of human beings: 

    'As the different streams having their sources in different 
     places all mingle their water in the sea, so, O Lord, the
     different paths which men take through different tendencies,
     various though they appear, crooked or straight, all lead
     to Thee.'

The present convention, which is one of the most august assemblies ever 
held, is in itself a vindication, a declaration to the world, of the 
wonderful doctrine preached in the Gita: 'Whosoever comes to Me, through 
whatsoever form, I reach him; all men are struggling through paths which 
in the end lead to Me.'  

Sectarianism, bigotry, and its horrible descendant, fanaticism, have
long possessed this beautiful earth.  They have filled the earth with
violence, drenched it often and often with human blood, destroyed
civilization, and sent whole nations to despair. Had it not been for
these horrible demons, human society would be far more advanced than it
is now.  But their time has come; and I fervently hope that the bell
that tolled this morning in honour of this convention may be the
death-knell of all fanaticism, of all persecutions with the sword or
with the pen, and of all uncharitable feelings between persons wending
their way to the same goal. 

27th September 1893 - Swami Vivekananda's Address At The Final Session

The World's Parliament of Religions has become an accomplished fact, and 
the merciful Father has helped those who laboured to bring it into 
existence, and crowned with success their most unselfish labour.

My thanks to those noble souls whose large hearts and love of truth 
first dreamed this wonderful dream and then realized it.  My thanks to 
the shower of liberal sentiments that has overflowed this platform.  My 
thanks to this enlightened audience for their uniform kindness to me and 
for their appreciation of every thought that tends to smooth the 
friction of religions.  A few jarring notes were heard from time to time 
in this harmony.  My special thanks to them, for they have, by their 
striking contrast, made the general harmony the sweeter.

Much has been said of the common ground of religious unity.  I am not 
going just now to venture my own theory.  But if anyone here hopes that 
this unity will come by the triumph of any one of the religions and the 
destruction of others, to him I say, 'Brother, yours is an impossible 
hope.'  Do I wish that the Christian would become Hindu?  God forbid.  
Do I wish that the Hindu or Buddhist would become Christian?  God forbid.

The seed is put in the ground, and the earth and air and water are 
placed around it.  Does the seed become the earth, or the air, or the 
water?  No.  It becomes a plant, it develops after the law of its own 
growth, assimilates the air, the earth, the water, converts them into 
plant substance, and grows into a plant.

Similar is the case with religion.  The Christian is not to become a 
Hindu or a Buddhist, nor a Hindu or a Buddhist to become a Christian.  
But each must assimilate the spirit of the others and yet preserve his 
individuality and grow according to his own law of growth.

If the Parliament of Religions has shown anything to the world, it is 
this:  It has proved to the world that holiness, purity, and charity are 
not the exclusive possessions of any church in the world, and that every 
system has produced men and women of the most exalted character.  In the 
face of this evidence, if anybody dreams of the exclusive survival of 
his own religion and the destruction of others, I pity him from the 
bottom of my heart, and point out to him that upon the banner of every 
religion will soon be written, in spite of resistance:

                'Help and not fight.
                 Assimilation and not Destruction.
                 Harmony and peace and not Dissension.'

    
    I have expressed what Jim has expressed in .0 throughout quite a few
    years.  I have been mostly read only in this conference for that very
    reason.  There are some in this conference who, it appears, have a hold
    on the truth.  Their's is the only way.  Cannot God work differently in
    everyone's life?  Cannot we be patient with one another in our striving
    to build our relationship with Jesus?  There is one way and that is
    Jesus, however there are many roads that lead to him.
    
    Peace in Christ,
    
    Mike
    

RE: .15 & .16

>>    'As the different streams having their sources in different 
>>     places all mingle their water in the sea, so, O Lord, the
>>     different paths which men take through different tendencies,
>>     various though they appear, crooked or straight, all lead
>>     to Thee.'

        Please, Cindy, be aware that Jesus said that the path (only one)
        that leads to the Father is straight and narrow, but wide are the
        paths (many) that lead to destruction.

        Also, "There is a way which seemeth right unto man, but the ends
        thereof are the ways of destruction."

	And, of course, "..none cometh unto the Father but by me."

	Jesus is either Liar, Lunatic, or Lord.
	I believe He is Lord.

        Much of what was said at these wolrdwide religious gatherings is
        based on the belief that man continues to evolve.  The truth is
        that man is becoming more depraved, is devolving, which is more in
        keeping with the physical laws of the universe (entropy, for one). 

        The relativistic dogma of evolution is responsible for more murder
        and war by orders of magnitude than all the religious wars put
        together.  

	Did you know that the complete title of Charles Darwin's work was,
        "The Origin of Species and the Emergence of Superior Races by the
        Process of Natural Selection"?

        Enter Karl Marx, Kaiser Wilhelm, Vladimir Lenin, Adolf Hitler,
        Joseph Stalin, Mao Tse Tung, John Dewey, Margaret Sanger, and Pol
	Pot, to name just a few.  All of these attribute their beliefs as
	predicated upon the "survival of the fittest" law of the jungle
	promulgated by Darwin.  We call it social Darwinism or humanism.

        In recent years, who is the "fittest" has been changed from what
        race you are, to what age you are and what you think.  
	
        The only thing that can reverse a person's direction is salvation
        through faith in Jesus Christ.   I invite you, Cindy, to ask Jesus
        into your heart to be the Lord of your life.  You will find that
        JOY is an acronym for "Jesus first, then Others, and, lastly,
        Yourself."

	Tony	

    I think the base note is a good reminder that we are not always
    successful at keeping our focus on the one important thing we have in
    common, our precious Lord Jesus and our desire to serve him with our
    whole being. I've found some of the exchanges that have gone on here
    very informative about others beliefs, views, etc.. What I find though -
    and have always found - in this conference, in the Church, etc. is that
    the things which people become the most heated over, are those things
    which are likely the least important to our Lord and Savior. It's
    interesting to speculate on what happens when we die, or Jesus'
    childhood, or any number of things, but if they were important in the
    scheme of eternity, we would have been given a clear message regarding
    them. God is practical and free from disguise. How we are to treat one
    another, who we, as Christians, are to be on a day-to-day,
    moment-to-moment basis, is very clear. Satan is likely delighted when
    we begin straining gnats over doctrinal differences, instead of
    uplifting and encouraging one another in the work which Jesus has
    plainly given us to do.
    
    Rebecca

    Rebecca,
    
    I do agree with you.  Well written and causes pause for thought.
    
    Nancy

RE: .19

        I disagree at least in part.  God is a perfectionist.  He is not a
        relativist.  He has given us His Holy Word with which to diligently
        seek out the details of who He is, what he expects from us, and
	what we can expect from Him.

        The Bible is His complete guide to faith and practice.  We cannot
        know God's specific will in our lives without first knowing His
        general will.  And we cannot be of much use until we have at least
        understood and put into practice His general will for us and are
        seeking His specific will.

        God's general will is that we all understand and accept His plan of
        salvation.  This is a very simple plan, intentionally, that none
        would misunderstand.  Yet there are those who would add something
        or delete something or replace something in this very simple plan.  
        Jesus said that there would be those who would not only refuse to
        understand salvation themselves, but would work to prevent others
        from understanding and accepting same.

        It is God's general will that once we are saved we must bear
        witness of His salvation to others.  How can we do this if we
        cannot accurately answer their questions about our origins, life
        and death, calamity and suffering, eternity, and the ultimate
        destiny of this world?

	To find God's specific will for our lives, we must then seek to be
	holy.  "Be ye holy for I am holy," saith the Lord.  Here is where
	we must seek to understand and obey the moral laws that God has
	provided in His bible.

        I believe that this is a good forum for seeking God's truth.  Let
        us continue to "provoke one another unto good works", leaving the
	pride of life behind, that our feelings not be hurt.

	Respectfully,
		Tony	
	

    
    Re.18
    
    Tony,
    
    I have to give you credit...your attempt at witnessing is far 
    kinder than many I've encountered here before.
    
    Many people here could learn something from your entry...not
    the words so much, but the approach.
    
    I do not believe exactly what you believe, and simply see what
    you believe as a subset of what I know to be true, but I respect 
    your presentation and your gentle sincerity.
    
    God bless,
                                           
    Cindy

RE:  .22

	Hi, Cindy.

	I once believed much as you do now, only with less grace than you
	portray.  I went from being an atheist to being an agnostic to
	being a theist, believing in an impersonal, relativistic god.

        While I believed this way, from time to time the thought of death
        would enter my mind.  I would be filled with immeasurable dread.
        Would my death be painful or violent?  Would I never see any of my
        kin again? Would I just be swallowed up in some big impersonal,
        all-encompassing oneness with no sense of any personal identity of
        my own?

	This struggle would leave me in a state of terror until I was able
	to replace it in my mind with some worldly distraction.

        After I learned of the one true Living God, who is also God of the
        living, I surrendered myself and accepted peace on His terms, as He
        laid them out for all to see in His Word.  Shortly after that, I
        was driving down the road, and that thought came into my mind
        again, "Boy, some day you are gonna die."  Well, instead of my old
        reaction of dread, I was filled with Joy, knowing that I would meet
        my kin in the Lord who had gone on before me, and would follow me,
        knowing that I would retain my identity, knowing that I would have
        the everlasting arms of Jesus to uphold me and wipe away all my
        tears.  I yelled out loud, "Glory!"

	I have never since been troubled by the specter of death.

        I will continue to pray for you, Cindy.

	Tony

    
    Re.23
    
    Hi Tony,
    
    And I will pray for you too.  By your entries, I can tell you
    have the peace of Christ in your heart and mind.
    
    I haven't really mentioned many of my beliefs here, so I'm not that 
    sure you have a true idea of what all my beliefs entail.  If you're 
    familiar with the Advaita Vedantic perspective though, then perhaps 
    you do...I don't know. 
      
    However, one thing we do have in common is that death holds no fear
    for me either.  Not so much because of belief, but because of my
    direct experiences.
    
    God bless,
    
    Cindy  

NOTE:  Hinduism is the religion of Vedanta.  Vedanta is an Eastern philosophy.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

From: "Vedanta - Voice Of Freedom", by Swami Vivekananda. pp.27-28

In nondualistic Vedanta, Brahman is the Ultimate Reality, Existence-
Knowledge-Bliss Absolute.  The world is shown to be nothing but name and
form, all of which is apparent, not real, having only relative existence.
But from the absolute standpoint, everything is Brahman - one without a
second.  The individual soul is nothing but Brahman. Name and form evolve
and dissolve, but the Self, the real nature of every being, is immortal
and unchanging.  After realizing one's identity with Brahman through
meditation, a person then sees Brahman, or God, in everything. 

In the beginning it was hard for Vivekananda to accept the nondualistic
view that 'everything is really Brahman', because he was a staunch
follower of Brahmo Samaj, which taught a theistic philosophy.  As he said
to Sri Ramakrishna:  "It is blasphemous, for there is no difference
between such philosophy and atheism.  There is no greater sin in the
world than to think of oneself as identical with the Creator.  I am God,
you are God, these created things are God - what can be more absurd! The
sages who wrote such things must have been insane."  Because Sri
Ramakrishna knew how to train a mind, the young man's outspokenness did
not deter him.  Smiling, he said, "You may not accept the views of these
seers.  But how can you abuse them or limit God's infinitude?  Go on
praying to the God of Truth and believe in any aspect of His that He
reveals to you." 

According to the Vedantic tradition, one must reach an understanding of
the philosophy with the help of 'shruti (the scriptures), 'yukti'
(reason), and 'anubhava' (experience).  Vivekananda's rebellious nature
did not surrender easily.  He was a votary of Truth.  Whatever did not
tally with reason and experience, he considered false, and it was his
nature to stand against falsehood. 

One day at Dakshineswar, while chatting with one of his friends,
Vivekananda sarcastically remarked concerning the Vedantic experience of
oneness: "How can this be?  This jug is God, this cup is God, and we too
are God!  Nothing can be more preposterous!"  Sri Ramakrishna heard
Vivekananda's laughter from his room.  He came out and inquired: "Hello! 
What are you talking about?"  He then touched Vivekananda and entered
into samadhi.  Preachers merely talk about religion, but Incarnations
like Buddha, Christ, and Ramakrishna, can transmit religion through a
glance or by a touch.  Vivekananda graphically described the effect of
that touch: 

    The magic touch of the Master that day immediately brought a wonderful 
    change over my mind.  I was stupefied to find that there was really 
    nothing in the universe but God!  I saw it quite clearly, but kept 
    silent, to see if the idea would last.  But the impression did not abate 
    in the course of a day.  I returned home, but there too, everything I 
    saw appeared to be Brahman.  I sat down to take my meal, but found that 
    everything  - the food, the plate, the person who served, and even 
    myself - was nothing but That.  I ate a morsel or two and sat still.  I 
    was startled by my mother's words: "Why do you sit still?  Finish your 
    meal," and began to eat again.  But all the while, whether eating, or 
    lying down, or going to college, I had the same experience and felt 
    myself always in a comatose state.  While walking in the streets, I 
    noticed the cabs plying, but did not feel inclined to move out of the 
    way.  I felt that the cabs and myself were of one stuff.  There was no 
    sensation in my limbs, which, I thought, were getting paralyzed.  I did 
    not relish eating, and felt as if somebody else were eating.  Sometimes 
    I lay down during a meal, and, after a few minutes, got up and again 
    began to eat.  The result would be that on some days I would take too 
    much, but it did no harm.  My mother became alarmed and said that there 
    must be something wrong with me.  She was afraid that I might not live 
    long.  When the above state altered a little, the world began to appear 
    to me as a dream.  While walking in Cornwallis Square, I would strike my 
    head against the iron railings to see if they were real or a dream.  
    This state of things continued for some days.  When I became normal 
    again, I realized that I must have had a glimpse of the Advaita state.  
    Then it struck me that the worlds of the scriptures were not false.  
    Thenceforth I could not deny the conclusions of the Advaita philosophy.

As time passed and Vivekananda went through various kinds of experiences,
his rebellious attitude, intellectual skepticism, and argumentative
nature were gradually transformed into self-surrender, faith and
devotion.  Brajendra Nath Seal, one of his friends who later became a
well-known professor, watched this change and remarked, "A born
iconoclast and free thinker like Vivekananda, a creative and dominating
intelligence, a tamer of souls, himself caught in the meshes of what
appeared to me an uncouth, supernatural mysticism, was a riddle that my
philosophy of Pure Reason could scarcely read at the time." 

        I did believe very much like Vivekananda taught, but I was never as
        well read or disciplined as you are, Cindy.  However, I don't
        remember any writing that indicated Brahman loved me personally.

	My brother in law went on a pligrimage to India to Meher Baba's
	tomb.  When he returned, his Christian brother asked him if Baba's
	body were still in its tomb.  Indeed, it is.

        Many belive that the apostles or somebody worked a hoax, stealing
        Jesus' body to provide basis for a bizarre sect of Judaism.  I used
        to believe this.  If this were true, why would these men, who
        cowered and hid during and after the crucifiction of their leader,
        be changed so much that they were willing to suffer torture and
        death for their belief?

        You know, I never did get to know Vivekananda personally, nor any
	other swami, living or dead.  However, Jesus is my personal saviour
	and friend.  Would that I were as much a friend to Him.

	The creation was perfect, flawless.  The indroduction of sin
	brought decay and death (entropy).  God, in His loving mercy,
	became manifest as a man to redeem His creation.  How else could
	justice be served?

	Christianity does not teach that we become God, but that God became
	one of us, in an act of self-sacrificial love.  You can come to
	know God personally, Cindy, not just intellectually.  We can easily
	be misled by our experiences, and God warns us in His Word to trust
	only in Him.

        The hurts in life can harden our hearts, such that we seek
        fulfillment by way of the intellect, or experience.  My heart was
        thus hardened by the hurts in my life, too.   Listen to your heart,
        Cindy.  Let the Holy Spirit of God speak to your heart.  He loves
	you beyond your deepest hope.  I'm available off-line if you want
	to talk.

	Prayerfully,
		Tony
	

�           <<< Note 303.25 by TNPUBS::PAINTER "remembering Amber" >>>

Hi Cindy,

Vedanta - or Hinduism - apparently does not perceive the immensity of the
boundary between time, and the infinity of eternity; or between frail human
fallibility, and the .absolute. peace, perfection and holiness of God's
immutable righteousness.  The way in which the gap is bridged for us to
pass from one to the other takes an eternal investment - which is where
Jesus comes in.  No amount of human effort can take us beyond humanity. 
But God's work does it. 

But then, it comes to a discussion of Christianity and Hinduism, which is
much too big to side track to in this note!  I feel your .25 is not really
in an appropriate place...  Particularly as it uses words and concepts 
which are very specific to Vedanta / Hinduism, which we (or at least most 
of us here) will be unfamiliar with.

							andrew

        
    Re.26
    
    Tony,
    
    I do have one question for you - if we can be misled by our
    experiences, then how is it that you also say we can get to
    know God personally.  Is that not an experience?  
    
    I'm also not quite sure of your reference to the physical
    body of Meher Baba, and the hoax regarding Christ's body, and
    how that fits into this discussion.  While it appears they
    matter to you, these things don't matter so much to me. 
    
    Also, your references to being an atheist, agnostic, theist, and
    then coming to where you are today - I never experienced any of
    these things.  For me, I've always felt/known/believed in God.
    
    I was also raised a Christian, and have no feelings whatsoever 
    of any kind of bitterness toward Christians or Christianity. 
    
    Your offer is very kind, and I know you are sincere.  Therefore, 
    just to put your mind at rest (;^), I'll admit that many (many) 
    years ago, I was indeed 'saved'.  It was a minister in my Girl 
    Scout camp.
    
    It's just that since then, I've had the kind of experience that 
    Vivekananda had, and after that, my perception of God -  while 
    a subset of what you and most Christians believe - was expanded 
    beyond the boundaries of any religion, philosophy, or belief system.
    
    Cindy

    
    Re.27
    
    Hi Andrew,
    
    Sorry 'bout that - point taken.  I put it in for the story for
    Tony, and probably should have deleted the sections that had the 
    potentially confusing terms in it.
    
    To address your point, then I'll refrain from further mention:
    
    Actually, Vedantic Hinduism does perceive the immensity of the 
    boundary between time, etc.  In Dualistic Vedanta, the concept/
    reality exists of a Personal God coming to humankind and bridging 
    the gap.  For Christians, it is Christ.  To Hindus, Christ is 
    recognized as one of these Incarnations of God - it's just that
    He is not recognized as the *only* Incarnation of God, hence the
    major gap between what Christians and Hindus believe, and why
    Hindus cannot be called Christians (obviously).
    
    Even in nondualist (Advaita) Vedanta, still Vivekananada required
    the presence and touch of his guru Sri Ramakrishna, to have the
    nondualistic experience and bridge the gap.
    
    Cindy

        Knowing God personally is not an experience.  It's like the way you
        know a friend.  A friend isn't an experience, he's a person, with
        likes and dislikes, joys and sorrows, reason and intellect, loving
        and sharing.  There is a depth in personal interaction that
        transcends experience, even a whole array of experiences.

        I have had many experiences in which I believed that I had come to
        know God.  None of them compares to what I have now.  What have you
	got to lose by giving Christ a chance to show you what He can do
	for you, personally?

	Praying for you, personally,
		Tony
	
	

                                                           
    Re.30
    
    Tony,
    
    Are you referring to the 'beingness' of interacting with a person,
    rather than the 'doing' of experiences'?
    
    If so, then our definitions are different, and yes, I know the 
    'beingness' of God.  I've been referring to it experientially, 
    however it does transcend a time-bound experience, as it is also 
    with me all the 'time'.  It is more the depth that changes over 
    time, and that is where spiritual growth comes in.  Much like a
    friendship that deepens as experiences/interactions go on over
    time as you get to know each other better.  These interactions 
    have nothing to do with beliefs, words on paper, theories, or
    whatever.
    
    (Re: your continuing attempts at conversion - Did you miss my 
    admitting that I've been 'saved' already?  And if so, how is it 
    you assume you know that I don't know Christ personally?)
    
    Praying for you also.
    
    May God bless,
    
    Cindy

RE:           <<< Note 303.31 by TNPUBS::PAINTER "remembering Amber" >>

        I'm sorry, Cindy, I mean no offense.

        As long as you believe that the biblical account of the life and
        teachings of Jesus Christ is not authoritative, it will continue to
        look like just words on paper to you.  However, as the prophecies
        in the books of Daniel, Revelation and others continue to unfold,
        you may want to revisit your thinking on the Bible's authenticity.

        It may be that you accept some of what the Bible says, but not all
        of it.  I can understand this.  I have come to understand the Bible
        as the user's manual for the tool of life.  Like any user's manual,
        there are things in there that just don't make sense - until you
        run into a problem and see the application.

        Ever put a kid's swing set together?  Whew!  The instructions are
        so convoluted and seem to be in reverse order a lot of times.  It's
        even worse if they were written with English words in a foreign
        language syntax. But if you don't make the effort to follow the
        instructions as they are written, trusting that they are in the
        correct order, you will be disappointed with the results.

	Peace,
		Tony
                                                   

            
    Re.32
    
    Tony,
    
    I know you mean no offense.  None taken.
    
    There is a wonderful Unitarian Universalist brochure out that sums
    up quite nicely how I feel about the Bible.  The title is, "There 
    Are Bible Thumpers and Bible Bashers - We Are Neither".  (I belong
    to the Unitarian Universalist religion, in case you are not aware.)
    One of the last sentences in the brochure says, "When we stop our
    thumping and bashing, and listen to the message [of the Bible], we 
    can hear God."
    
    Anyway, no, I don't take the Bible literally, because there have
    been far too many 'edits' throughout the centuries for me to do so.
    I do see it as a very good rule book to follow especially if you don't 
    have any rule book at all, for living one's life.  
    
    I prefer to live by the spirit of the Bible, which, very briefly,
    I see as:  "God is Love" (somewhere in I John), and the overall message
    of Revelation which is:  "God Wins".  The Ten Commandments and the
    Golden Rule (a takeoff of a Micah verse which goes something like, 'Be 
    kind to one another.") are also very good rules to live by, and I do my 
    best to follow.  But then, I would follow these anyway, regardless of 
    their presence in a book.
    
    A dear friend, and minister emeritus of the church I attend, wrote a
    wonderful book entitled, "Truth Is Stranger Than Dogma", where he
    presented these rules as they appear in 10 different religions of the
    world, including Christianity of course.  It is remarkable how they say
    almost exactly the same things.
    
    About the only thing you and I do not entirely agree on, is that Christ
    is the *only* Son of God.  I know it says it in the Bible, however I
    don't believe that...which is a key reason why I don't call myself a
    Christian (nor would many here.)   However, to put your mind at rest, 
    if you believe the 'once saved always saved' idea, then you can be
    assured that I'm saved.
    
    And, as I wrote earlier, I hold no bitter feelings toward Christianity 
    or Christ whatsoever, and fully recognize Christianity as a valid path 
    to God.  In fact, so did Sri Ramakrishna, Swami Vivekananda's guru,
    much to the amazement of his fellow Hindus at the time (this was 100+
    years ago.)  
    
    Cindy 

    Thanks for sharing as you have, Jim (.0).  It's not always easy to
    acknowledge our vulnerabilities in such a public place.  For what it's
    worth, I am sorry that you have felt attacked in your faith here. 
    
    For all, I guess I see some varying communication (which includes
    listening) skills here -- which contributes to a divisive spirit.  I
    include myself in the following statement when I say "Zeal is never an
    excuse for rudeness."  Let us always work to speak the Truth in love,
    understanding that no one has the complete handle on interpretation of
    Scripture.  And in matters where doctrine or denomination cause
    difference of opinion, let us remember that simple thought:
    
    "In essentials -- unity,
    	In non-essentials -- liberality,
    		In all things -- charity"
    
    I, too, am zealous for the Truth and for our Lord Jesus.  But let me
    remember that while "iron sharpens iron"...it is also true that "a
    soft answer turns away wrath."  I'm not advocating a mass change in
    everyone's personality, but exhorting us all to listen to the Father
    before dealing with His children.  It's an awesome (=read sobering)
    thought to remember that we are accountable for every word we speak.
    
    In His love,
    
    -greta

RE:   <<< Note 303.33 by TNPUBS::PAINTER "remembering Amber" >>>

	Hi, again, cindy.

	The reason that you find this commonality (be ye kind to one
	another) in all religions, is that God promised that He would write
	His law upon our hearts.  Indeed God is love.  However, the notion
	of love today is that which has been popularized by Hollywood and
	the press.  Hollywood's version of love is lust, the press version
	of love is anything goes.  Let's have a look at God's love, and
	what He says that love is.

        Essentially, love is what you do for someone, not what you feel for
        that one.  The feeling should be a result of the doing, not the
        other way around.  If you love your friend, you would not allow him
        to drive drunk.  If you love your daughter, you would not allow her
        to date a boy who has a reputation as a "spoiler".  When your son
        comes home from school with a colorful new epithet, do you smile
        warmly and say, "How cute!" ?  If you love him, you'll correct him. 

        Is it love to approve of foolishness or to yield to foolish lusts? 
        God says that love is perfected in obedience to His commandments.

        1 John 5:3  For this is the love of God, that we keep his
        commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

        If you love your mom and dad, you'll obey them, trusting completely
        that they know what's best for you.  If one is rebellious, he does
        not love his mom and dad, because he doesn't care if what he does
        hurts them.  He is only interested in what pleases himself.  The
        person that seduces another into an adulterous relationship does
        not love that one, but himself, that he may please himself at the
        other's expense.  Love is patient, love gives warning, love brings
	confrontation.  If you see someone backing towards a cliff, out of
	genuine concern you would yell, "Stop!"

        Love is applying the necessary action for the immediate and long
	term good of another.  It is love to lock up a serial murderer,
	better that he does not do it again, and to protect others.
	Anger is as much a legitimate expression of love as is a caress.
	Do not confuse anger with hate, else you would have to say that
	your parents hated you when they were angry at some foolish thing
	you said or did.

        It is love to diligently seek God's law that we may obey it, and
        then to diligently seek His will for our lives.

	Indeed, the overall message of Revelation is "God wins."  But
	against what?  What does He win?  Who are the losers?  The one
	thing that differentiates the Bible from all the other scriptures,
	is that the prophecies of the Bible come true.  The only ones yet
	to be fulfilled are those of the translation of the church and the
	great tribulation.  Revelation is not the only prophetic book in
	the Bible.  If you would like to discuss this in more detail
	off-line, I would be happy to do so.

	You know, if a person commits a murder, he is a murderer.  He only
	has to commit one murder to be a murderer.  One rape is enough to
	earn the title rapist.  It is not a leap of logic to say that one
	lie is enough to make one a liar.  One theft to make one a thief.
	One tryst to make one an adulterer or fornicator.

        It takes only one sin to make one a sinner.

        Do you believe that God is perfect in all His ways?  Perfectly
        just, perfectly knowing, and perfectly loving?  Because He is
        perfectly just, He cannot tolerate the presence of sin, as you
        would not tolerate a dirty restroom. Because He is perfectly
        knowing, He gave us His laws to warn us against our weaknesses,
	that our lives would not be burdened beyond the ordinary trials of
	life.  Because He is perfectly loving, He came manifest as a man to
	offer Himself in our place, that in Him we might be justified.
	
	You say that you have been "saved."  Well, I don't know how much of
        the Bible you believe, but here goes.

        2 Corinthians 5:17  Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new
        creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become
        new.

        1 John 2:19  They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if
        they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
        but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were
        not all of us.

        1 John 2:5  But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love
        of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

	Peace,
		Tony
		

    
    Re.35
    
    Hi Tony,
    
    What the Bible says about Love is what other religions say as well.
    I wasn't referring to the Hollywood/press version.
    
    As for 'winning', it means that God's Love triumphs in the end.  
    
    However, the way I see this happening verses the way you see this
    happening, is different.  
              
    Cindy

 Last night our Pastor gave us a survey to take, not to be turned in, but
 a "self assessment" of our growth in the Lord.  I didn't bring it with me
 today, but if anybody's interested, I'll try to post it tonight.

 For me, it was quite eye-opening, and pointed out where I really need to
 grow.



 Jim

	Jim, please post it.