Conference yukon::christian_v7

Thank you Greg.  Will be remembering that troubled people before the LORD...

							Andrew

    I've felt a special call by God to pray for Russia since mid-October.
    ....Thought I'd add this as a spiritual confirmation.

   Thanks Greg and Mary for the reminder to pray for our brothers and sisters
around the world.



   I pray for friends, various other folks and their situations, but sometimes
I tend to forget about people and nations elsewhere.  This note, and our recent
missions conference has served as a wake up call for me.




Jim

Many thanks to all for reminding us of this urgent subject for prayer.

I go quite often to Moscow in my Digital work on buildings and interiors, and
I'm terribly impressed by the rapid growth of other religions and New Age there.
We have urgent work to do there to support our Russian brothers and sisters in
carrying forward the banner of Christ.

However, I want to take this opportunity to share a topic for prayer which is one 
I've been distressed about for some time.  Quite often, in hotels and airports, 
I come across western Christian missionaries who are busy doing things in Russia,
mainly in the big cities (almost exclusively in Moscow and St Petersburg). My 
innocent questions have revealed that in very many cases, perhaps most, these
missions are operating as one-shot, independent operations.  To illustrate, I
summarise a conversation I had with a group of western students who were getting
on the same plane as me at Moscow Sheremetyevo:

Me: "What are you doing in your missionary work in Moscow?"

Them: "Spreading the Word of God in schools and colleges in the city - we've got
the support of the city authorities to go in there."

Me: "How many people have you been able to address?"

Them: "Several thousand, mostly in meetings, some individually."

Me: "Have many responded positively?"

Them: "Yes, thousands."

Me: "How do you handle follow-up?"

Them: "We're sending one person for a week, six months from now".

Me: "What contact have you arranged with local churches?"

Them: "None."

What is clear is that there are many sincere and committed groups doing "hit-and-
run" evangelism, making no provision for introducing people to local churches,
and no provision to ensure continuing spiritual growth of people who commit
themselves.  This is already getting Christianity a name for being 
opportunistic, and the lack of contact with local churches is alienating the
very churches that form the already existing foundation in Russia. Christians in 
that country have already suffered physically and mentally far more than most of
us can imagine.  Many of them are terribly scarred in many ways, but they see an 
infusion of newcomers as an answer to 70 years of prayer and suffering under the
old regime. To find themselves excluded from the (to them) lavishly funded
actions of western missions is a cruel disappointment, and some individuals and 
congregations have already decided to have nothing to do with foreign missions.
This is a very serious issue which has not been made public in the west (to my
knowledge). The national and local authorities are also beginning to restict the 
action of missions because they perceive as having little relevance and connection 
to the local churches. There is a real possibility of the door being closed to 
foreign missions, especially as the head of the Russian Othodox church has taken
the extraordinary line that only his church has the right to evangelise in Russia
(and he and President Yeltsin have close connections).

I would ask all those of you who are committed to prayer for Russia to
lift this subject also to the Lord, in the hope that He will not let the willing
sowing of the word fall on stony ground.

Yours' in Jesus' Name,			Richard.

The basic problem is that there ARE no local churches, or certainly not enough
of them.

Our church has had some amount of contact with a sister city in Russia,
Cherpovyets (spelling is surely wrong, pronunciation would be worse :-).  We
have definitely received a call as a body to be involved in establishing the
Word there.  But it is precisely the problem of follow-up that is currently
holding us back.

Cherpovyets is an out-of-the-way, industrial city of about 300,000 people, and
there are **THREE** churches there.  First there is the Russian Orthodox
church, which many people have difficulty relating to, and which wants nothing
to do with us or any non-orthodox organization.  Then there is a small (~100
people) wildly charimatic church which we have had some amount of contact with.
Again, people have difficluty relating to this church.  Lastly, there is
another small (~100 people) Baptist church, that has been there for years. 
They existed under the communist persecution, so they are in the poorest part
of town, because they could get no jobs or houses due to their beliefs.  That
church carries a stigma that holds people off.

There is NOWHERE, in this city of 300,000, where the Word is preached in a way
that meets people where they are and encourages them to grow from there.  We
would love to go create or take part in an evangelizing event, but we are
stuck- where do we send these people for follow-up?  We are currently
investigating whether there is any way WE can be involved in follow-up, but
anything less than someone there full-time to shepherd and care for people is
really insufficient.

Anyone have any ideas on where to go from here?  Know anyone who wants to live
in Russia for a few years and establish a church?

Paul

Thank you Richard.  An awesome task indeed.  Overwhelming for any
individual to consider, but in our LORD's hands, it needs only willing
hearts to respond.  Willing to pray, and willing to be [a part of] the
answer to their prayers.  It bites when it implies changing our personal
lifestyle.

						God bless
							Andrew

    As mentioned in an earlier note, I have felt led by the Lord to
    pray for Russia and I have been doing so since the 'call' in
    mid-October. 
    
    Despite this, I have not looked upon it with the highest level of
    priority since I have understood that the Lord has wished me to
    be praying for the conversion of America. 
    
    All last week I was, again and again, drawn to pray for Russia.
    Last night in prayer the urgency for this was emphasized by the Lord,
    and I was 'infused' with an understanding that to pray for the
    conversion of Russia IS to help America. I do not know how this is so,
    but the Word that I received was full of God's authority, clarity and
    came with His Peace. [To 'pray for Russia' means to pray for her 
    conversion to Jesus Christ.]
    
    Of course I continue to pray for America and a multitude of other 
    intentions [particularly the Church], but now I understand that the
    prayer for Russia is most urgent and that the state of her conversion
    [or lack thereof] will impact America and, perhaps, the world.
    
    Peace of Jesus,
    
    Mary
    

> The basic problem is that there ARE no local churches, or certainly not
> enough of them.

> First there is the Russian Orthodox church, which many people have difficulty
> relating to, and which wants nothing to do with us or any non-orthodox
> organization.

I am fairly confident that there are a large number of Russian Orthodox
churches in Russia, certainly more than other kinds of churches.

I dispute, however, your assertion that people "have difficulty relating to"
the Orthodox Church.

Western Protestant missionaries "have difficulty relating to" the Russian
Orthodox Church, though; first of all, because they wholly reject its doctrine,
and second of all, most of them honestly believe that there haven't been any
Christians in Russia for 70 years and that Russian Orthodox believers certainly
aren't Christians.  You wonder why the Orthodox church is upset when a flood of
foreigners comes in, declares the Orthodox churches apostate, and starts
spreading (from their perspective) a foreign gospel.  Western missionaries have
virtually zero respect for Orthodox Christians.  (Many Orthodox Christians
in Russia seriously resent the way foreign missionaries behave in Russia.)
Let's not forget how many groups you would consider cults have also converged
on Russia, and it is probably very difficult for Orthodox to distinguish
evangelical Protestants from the pseudo-Christian cults.  

What the Russians "have difficulty relating to" is Western religion,
specifically the Protestant religions, which are entirely foreign to their
culture.

Russian Orthodoxy is truly THE SOUL OF RUSSIA.  Russia has been Orthodox for
over one thousand years.  The Russian Orthodox church is thoroughly imbued with
Russian culture.  The Russian Orthodox Church preserves a national identity and
a historic culture for Russians.  Remember that before Communism, church and
state were virtually one for hundreds of years, and so there is virtually no
distinction between what is Orthodox and what is Russian.  The Protestant faith
is incomprehensible and wholly foreign to Russians, while Russian Orthodoxy
appears to them like a long lost babushka (grandmother) with open arms who
brings back fond memories and is part of your heritage and patrimony.  Russian
culture is so imbued with Russian Orthodoxy that the Protestant missionary
opposition to Russian Orthodoxy is really an opposition to the culture that
Russians hold near and dear, and indeed the culture they need to cling to to
form a post-Soviet identity.

As an example, consider icons -- considered even by unbelievers to be a proud
part of Russian culture.  Icons are treasured by Russians as part of their
culture, and have always been treated with respect.  Certain icons are
considered very holy and have even been credited with bringing God's grace to
save entire cities in times of distress.  In come the iconoclasts who inform
them that icons are idolatrous and must be rejected by believing Christians.
Not very endearing to Russians.

Russian Orthodox churches need help -- they don't need to be replaced. I might
also add that because of the role Russian Orthodoxy has always played in
unifying the Russian people, the introduction of thousands of Protestant sects
into Russia would instead bring division at the worst possible time.  There is
enough religious violence among Orthodox, Catholics, and Moslems in the Slavic
republics without bringing 28,000 other churches in as well.  It's no wonder,
then, that Yeltsin issued a decree to stem the influx of non-indigneous
religious missionaries. (This, incidentally, is not a blow to Christianity, but
only to Protestant Christianity; Orthodoxy and Catholicism do not fall under
this decree.)

So in reality, the Russian people -- except perhaps those indoctrined by
western missionaries -- far from finding Russian Orthodoxy "hard to relate to",
relate to it much better than they do the foreign faiths flooding in.  Until
the Western missionaries understand the role of Russian Orthodoxy in Russian
culture, they are going to do more harm than good (especially with the
aforementioned shotgun evangelism approach, which is inherently ineffective and
destructive anyway.)

Eric

Quite the set of sweeping generalities about the "Russian People," Eric.  Even
if you were from Russia yourself, I'd question the way you paint such an
absolute picture about what Russians believe, about what is "incomprehensible
and wholly foreign" to them, and what is "like a long lost grandmother ... that
brings back fond memories."  Certainly there are some people in Russia, perhaps
many, who fit this description.  To say that "Russians" as a group are all
alike in this regard doesn't follow, however.

I don't claim to know anything more about Russia than a few things about one
city.  Sorry for the extrapolation in my prior note, but it seemed reasonable
to assume that some of the things that were going on in that one city might be
happening elsewhere.  Everything I said is based on interactions with people in
the Russian city of Cherpovyets.  From those interactions, there exists a clear
need for an alternative to the Christian options chich currently exit in that
city.  I concluded that similar conditions may be found elsewhere.  But I
certainly would not attempt to make such broad definitive statements as you did
in your reply.

Our church's involvement with this city began when one of our members became
involved in a basketball team exchange - a totally non-religious setting.  He
came to know several people from this city, and to know some of what was
happening on the religious scene because he was interested in it.  He did not
become involved as a missionary, or with any idea of evangelism at all.  I
didn't make up the statement about people not relating to the orthodox church,
I'm simply relating a fact: he was told that again and again.  It is simply the
relating of fact to say that there are 300,000 inhabitants in the city, and
only three churches.  I don't know the size of the orthodox church, but it is
not large, certainly much less than one percent of the population.  It is
simply the relating of fact to say that many, many people we have spoken to in
the city feel they have nowhere to turn for a ministry of the church that meeds
them where they are.

Yes, the Russian orthodox church WAS the soul of Russia for many long years,
but it seems that the long night of communism has birthed whole generations of
people who don't know much about it, and it seems to be an anachronism to many
people.  A few people from the city have attended our church here, and many of
them have independently said "if only there was a church like this at home."

It's in that context that we have begun to think about how to help spread the
gospel in that city.  We have no issue at all with the orthodox church.  So
long as Christ is glorified and people are empowered by the claiming of His
blood to transform their lives, the rest of the doctrine is entirely secondary.
We would LOVE to help the orthodox church in Cherpovyets to spread the gospel,
we would LOVE to help in evangelism and send the people who turn their lives
over to Christ to the orthodox church for ongoing support.  But they want no
part of it.

We're simply looking for a way to fill a need that has been expressed to us.

Paul

> Certainly there are some people in Russia, perhaps many, who fit
> this description.  To say that "Russians" as a group are all alike
> in this regard doesn't follow, however.

You are right that what I say should not be taken as a generalization; but
neither should what you say be taken as a generalization! :-)

> From those interactions, there exists a clear need for an alternative to the
> Christian options chich currently exit in that city.  I concluded that
> similar conditions may be found elsewhere.  But I certainly would not attempt
> to make such broad definitive statements as you did in your reply.

Maybe my statements were too broad, but what I said is the impression _I_ get
from my Russian Orthodox friends, a few of whom are recent emigres.

> I didn't make up the statement about people not relating to the
> orthodox church, I'm simply relating a fact: he was told that again
> and again.  It is simply the relating of fact to say that there are
> 300,000 inhabitants in the city, and only three churches.

According to a Russian emigre (Orthodox) friend of mine, There are about 15,000
active Russian Orthodox parishes in Russia; another approximately 10,000 are
closed.

A city of half a million people might have an average of 5-8 open Russian
Orthodox parishes, and 20-30 closed ones.

> I don't know the size of the orthodox church, but it is not large,
> certainly much less than one percent of the population.  

About 15% of Russians are practicing Orthodox.  About 75% of Russians were
baptized into the Orthodox church.

> It is simply the relating of fact to say that many, many people we have
> spoken to in the city feel they have nowhere to turn for a ministry
> of the church that meeds them where they are.

Well, naturally Protestants aren't going to think that an Orthodox church
"meets them where they are," for a number of reasons. On top of this the
Russian Orthodox church doesn't have the money or resources to really minister;
they are poor.

To Orthodox Christians and Catholic Christians, whether a church is satisfying
or exciting or dynamic is not of foremost importance.  Christ is there
regardless of the unworthiness of the minister; the Holy Mysteries (or
sacraments) are the same no matter how poor a preacher the priest may be.  The
Orthodox tend to focus much more on finding a church that teaches right
doctrine rather than finding a church which they like or which satisfies them.

> Yes, the Russian orthodox church WAS the soul of Russia for many long years,
> but it seems that the long night of communism has birthed whole generations
> of people who don't know much about it, and it seems to be an anachronism to
> many people.

My friend says that this attitude is mainly among the young, and limited to
a small percentage of the population (maybe 15%).  Don't forget how many
people say that about all the churches here.

> gospel, we would LOVE to help in evangelism and send the people who turn
> their lives over to Christ to the orthodox church for ongoing support.  But
> they want no part of it.

Well, the problem is that from the Orthodox perspective, you are spreading a
false gospel.  Doctrine is everything for the Orthodox; in fact, the name
"Orthodox" means right doctrine or right worship. Unfortunately this really
means that you cannot treat Orthodox Churches as you do other churches or have
the same expectations of them.  Their perspectives on the Christian faith are
much different from yours, although they do preach the transforming power of
the blood of Christ and faith in his death and resurrection.  Because they
approach the Christian faith so much differently, they would probably not
believe it was beneficial to have you evangelize for them.

Eric

I heard an excerpt of a news program about western missionaries in Russia
and the other day as I was driving home.

One Russian that was interviewed said that they found the western 
missionaries more 'down to earth', easier to relate to, warmer, more 
real than the Orthodox services and ceremony.  On the other hand,
a portion of one missionary group's meeting was also broadcast and 
to my ears the way the man spoke sounded so condescending, so much
like he was talking to children, and not intelligent adults.  He
spoke in English, and an interpreter translated to Russion.  But when
a hym was sung, it was done in English and related probably not very
much to the real experiences of those people.

I think the intent of people going to Russia as missionaries and converters
is sincere and commendable, but I also think that in many cases our 
sensitivity level is woefully inadequate.  Our regard for these people 
should not come from above, like we're smarter, better, somehow, but shoulder 
to shoulder as peers.

Leslie

 Recent political events in Russia make it even more urgent to
be praying for our brothers and sisters over there.  While it appears
change could take awhile, it would seem that the peace and relaxation
of the cold war could be a very limited thing.





Jim