Conference yukon::christian_v7

    
    What I meant in the first paragragh of my base note that I am a
    member and don't consider myself belonging to a cult.

Thank you for sharing that.  It would be helpful if you could
provide references from Worldwide Church of God literature
that state these beliefs and that clearly renounce the former
beliefs that are very well documented.  You are presumably well
aware that what you are claiming are now official doctrines
are in violent disagreement with their historical doctrines.

Herbert Armstrong wrote things such as, "You are setting out on
a training to become CREATOR - to become GOD!" (Why were you
Born?  pages 21, 22) and "I suppose most people think of God
as one single individual Person.  Or, as a "TRINITY."  THIS
IS NOT TRUE."  (Just What Do You Mean - Born Again?  pages 17,
19).

I'd love to believe that the Worldwide Church of God has
renounced these beliefs in favor of traditional Christian
beliefs.  I'm skeptical of believing this claim, however, without
knowing the official pronouncements from the ruling body of the 
church.

Collis

    
    Re -1.  Yes I fully aware of what it is print, most of this literature
    is being revised to reflect the doctrinal changes that the church is
    presently undergoing.  But these changes are taking place, the church
    is growing and moving on past Herbert W. Armstrong.  
    
    Some people have come to believe that Mr. Armstrong was a false
    prophet,  I don't believe Mr. Armstrong ever claimed to be a prophet
    but one who had a commission to start a church based on Godly
    principals, not one based man's tradition.  Mr. Armstrong was not
    infalliable.  
    
    These changes in doctrine have occurred and have caused an uproar
    in the church itself, many people have left the church do these
    changes.  They were unwilling to grow, unwilling to accept the
    spiritual knowledge that revealing to truths.  Fortunately,
    Mr Tkach (present pastor general) has seen to it that these changes
    in doctrine are taking place.
    
    For me to type in the churches reason for the changes in doctrine
    as outline in the churches newspaper / updated literature would take
    up to much space.  However, I believe you can write the church and
    ask them for the publication called "Statement of Beliefs" but
    this may also be in the process of being updated.
    
    thanks, Kent

Thanks Kent,

A man who attends my church also gets The Plain Truth, and has been asking 
many questions - some basic to Christianity, and some about where the WWCG 
stands.  I've looked up the position from a reference book I have, and then 
gone through the latest PT.  I had the impression of one of the following:

	� My reference book and the PT copy were distinclty out of step in 
	  certain issues.
	� Some facets were played down in the PT (maybe to be brought out 
	  only later, when was committed to their general teaching).
	� Some postions were clearly changed to conform to a more 
	  traditional orthodox view of Scripture.

I thought of mailing you offline to ask if this was so, but as you've 
referred to it in .3, it seemed unnecesary.

Some points I had heard of WWCG belief, which you may be able to confirm or 
refute - or even to indicate a [pending] change of position on - are:

	� The Holy Spirit is seen as a force, not as a co-equal part of the 
	  Godhead.
	� Salvation is not complete in this life, but relies upon us 
	  staying in a state of grace following conversion.
	� We progress towards becoming Gods ourselves, which is completed 
	  only upon death.
	� God is a family, not a trinity.

Not trying to be confrontational - just interested to know where this 
church stands in these matters.

							thanks 
								Andrew

    
    RE -1  Its okay your not being confrontational.  Yes your reference
    material is probably out of date and will not agree with the latest
    issues of the PT.
    
    If the doctinal changes the church is undertaking is more mainstream,
    then so be it.
    
    I'll attempt to answer your questions and any other questions you may
    have.
    
  * The Holy Spirit is seen as a force, not as a co-equal part of the
    Godhead.
    
    God consists of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit, God is one.
    The Holy Spirit can be construed(sp) as a force when its being
    described in the Bible.  But the word force, is indeed a poor choice
    of words.
    
  * Salvation is not complete in this life, but relies upon us staying in
    a state of grace following conversion.
    
    If your referring to once saved always saved, the Church does not teach
    this.  We believe that salvation (eternal life) is a gift from God and
    was made available through the sacrifice of his Son.  Salvation is not
    obtain by works.  The church believes that you can lose your salvation
    by being disobedient and rebellious to the ways of God after
    conversion (baptism).
    
  * We progress towards Gods ourselves, which is completed only upon death.
    
    As a Christian, God expects us to become more like Christ, in other
    words to grow in Christian love.  This process is completed at the
    2nd coming of Christ.  We don't believe that we will become God,
    but will be like him, can you differentiate between the two.
    
  * God is a family, not a Trinity.
    
    This is an old teaching.  The church believes that the words family
    and Trinity doesn't accurately describe the nature of God.  The church
    believes that there is one God, the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit,
    distinct but not separate.  We don't use the word persons to describe
    the seperation because it also fails to describe the nature of God.
    
    Hope this helps, Kent

Thanks Kent - that's helped a lot.  I can see how the stance has moved 
some.  I might well ask some more, but just now it's the end of the day 
here in the UK, so I'll leave it until later.

						God bless
							Andrew

    
    The lateest issue of Christianity Today reports that the WCOG is
    moving towards the more orthodox Biblical doctrines, which includes
    recognition and belief in the Trinity.   Also, the Levitical food
    practices will no longer be required, celebrations of birthdays
    and such will be allowed.
    
    They are expecting to lose 10-50% of its members.  (If I remember
    the percentages correctly.)
    

    
    As a member of the Church I will answer the statements as outlined
    in .7
    
    Recognitiion and belief in the Trinity:
    God is one and consists of the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit.
    Not separate but yet distinct.  We don't like to use the word
    Trinity but because we feel it doensn't acurately describe the
    nature of God.
    
    Levitical food practices:
    Haven't heard about this one,  Its still my understnding that
    we are not suppose to eat unclean meats (ie. pork).
    
    Celebration of birthdays:
    Since I been a member (6 yrs) the observance of birthdays has always
    been allowed.  But celeberation is to be done in moderation, for
    example, no drunken brawl.

    
    A snipet from the article that I referred to in .7.  This is just
    for informational purposes not debate.  I read the article at home
    and came across the topic here and thought I'd share the info.
    
    "Up to 100,000 members of the Worldwide Church of God (WCG) - which
    has moved toward orthodoxy after 60 years of rejecting basic Christian
    beliefs - may bolt following the latest round of doctrincal changes,
    observers and former members say.... A survey of articles written
    by WCG pastor-general Joseph W. Tkach reveals the most likely shift
    will involve a new view of the Godhead that embraces trinitarian
    doctrine heretofore rejected by the church (CT, Nov 9, 1992, p.57)...
    Church observers also believe the group will drop a requirement that
    members adhere to Levitical dietary laws on 'clean' and 'unclean'
    foods.  In earlier moves, the WCG said it would stop setting dates for
    propheised events and drop prohibitions against medical care, the
    celebration of birthdays, and interracial marriages..." 
    (Christianity Today, Nov 8, 1993, p.59                

	Does anyone know why interacial marriages weren't allowed?



Glen

    
    re: -1
    
    I feel its best not to get into a discussion of that particular topic.
    
    Kent