Conference yukon::christian_v7

    I believe that the holidays are what you make of them.  My kids will go
    to a church based "un-Halloween" party Sunday afternoon and trick-or-
    treating when they come home.  We are involved in this tradition as
    kids who dress up (their choices of costumes are limited to non-
    threatening, non-pagan) and visit all their close neighbors (we live in
    a small community) completely for fun.  Much like Christmas in our
    house - it is a time when Santa showers this kids with presents and we
    spend time with family and friends. 
    
    You see - as Christians we celebrate Christ's life on a daily basis -
    we do not single out any day of the year for his birth,life,death.  We
    impress the non-religious aspect of these holidays upon our children. 
    We explain that some religions celebrate those special times of year
    and even for some people that's the only time they go to church or even
    think about God/Jesus.
    
    -sandy
    

    This has been a topic (or several topics) of discussion in every
    version of the conference since (I think) V3.  There is a rather long
    note about the history of Halloween in ATLANA::CHRISTIAN_V5 note 166.0
    which I won't repost here.  Many found that note to be quite
    "enlightening".
    
    Mark L.

If Halloween were still just a chance for kids to dress up in costumes and go
knock on their neighbors doors, then I would probably still be of the opinion
that it was harmless.

But with the witches on the Salem Council of Churches, and with all the New
Age stuff on the rise, and with pagans actually celebrating it as Samhain,
I think it's time for Christians to stay away from it.

For those Christians who observe the Feast of All Saints on the next day, the
Eve should be a time to think about, read about, and pray for inspiration from
the examples of all the faithful Christians who have gone before us and done
God's will.

/john

	I really don't think Halloween should be made that big a deal. I agree
if you're Christian that choosing a costume that has nothing to do with evil,
pagins, etc is the right thing to do. Angels, Jesus, Moses, etc are acceptable
costumes. We see the evil that is there from some of the costumes, why not
counter it with good? It's supposed to be a night for the kids to go out and
have a good time. You have to admit it can be equally as fun for both the
child and parent when getting the child ready to go out and the reactions
people have when they see the child all dressed up. 

	John, while you may be right about witches using this night, why can't
God? To turn your back and walk away from it seems more like you are giving in
to them. If it bothers you so, dress the kid up in any of the many acceptable
and or religious costumes that there are. Then you're trying to make it God's
night and not letting it be the other guys night.

	Just my 2�.....


Glen

   RE: Note 295.1 by DELNI::DISMUKE 
                          
	Sandy Hi,

	My church also offers some "un-Halloween" party/activities for that
    night.  No costumes, but usually thereare prepared candy bags for the kids.
    I find it an interesting thought of how you handle it at home.  At least 
    you seem to have come to terms on it.  I agree with what you said below 
    about celebrating Christ's life on a daily basis but I still find it 
    difficult to be a partaker of such an un-Godly holiday.  Granted there may 
    be cases where God can/has used a Christian/Church during this time to do 
    a work in someones life, but I feel following the customs of that holiday 
    may send the wrong picture to children.

    >You see - as Christians we celebrate Christ's life on a daily basis -
    >we do not single out any day of the year for his birth,life,death.  We
    >impress the non-religious aspect of these holidays upon our children. 
    >We explain that some religions celebrate those special times of year
    >and even for some people that's the only time they go to church or even
    >think about God/Jesus.
    
    I know my kids are under a certain amount of peer pressure from their 
    school mates.  I even sense at times a certain amount of excitement from
    my 7 year old.  They say they understand why 'we' don't celebrate Halloween,
    but I can see a certain amount of hurt... How do other parents deal with 
    keeping their children from Halloween?  Also, is there anyone out there that
    has gone through this and who's kids have grown up and keep there kids from
    trick-or-treating?  Just curious..

	Shalom,

		Richard
    

 Halloween is something that up until this year hasn't really bothered me.
 At least as I was backslidden I didn't give it a thought.  This year, however
 it is bothering me and I've been at a loss as to what to do.  My youngest
 son who is the only one who would do the costume thing, lives with his
 mother and I expect that she will be taking him out.  It has been something
 of a tradition that my kids went with friends of the family who are Christians
 and it never occurred to me to be a problem.


 I would prefer that he not go out this year, but I think since my kids haven't
 come all the way back into a relationship with Christ I'm not going to push it
 right now.  The whole concept of their dad being back in church and active
 is still kinda foreign to my youngest anyway (and really foreign and wierd to
 my 17 year old) and I'd hate to push him away from something he has always
 been involved in.  However, over the next year I hope to get him back into
 church regularly, and perhaps next year into a Christian school.



 Jim

When I was growing up, I think many people in my parents' generation viewed
the occult as some sort of myth, like they way we were taught in junior
high about Greek mythology: legends made up by people.  They just didn't see 
its relevance to life, spiritual or otherwise.  Consequently, as a child, 
I participated in the trick or treat tradition in innocence, completely niave 
as to its origins or any relationship to the occult.  It was simply a time 
to dress up as some other character, go around the neighborhood with my 
friends at dusk, and collect a bag of candy.

As I've grown older, and have become more aware of how the struggle between
good and evil permeates all of life, know that on one side lies God and life,
and on the other side is all that leads to corruption and permanent death, 
and have seen a shift in the general public's awareness of, interest in, and 
participation in the occult, I've grown more and more uncomfortable with 
participating in anyway in Halloween.

I wish there was a way children could have a grand game of make-believe and
dress up that whole neighborhoods participated in, without the connection
to the occult and demonic forces, but I perceive that the connections to the
occult are increasing, not decreasing, and my uneasiness about it has grown
to such an extent, that I have a difficult time with all the Halloween 
advertising, the huge volume of horror movies and television shows that are 
shown at this time of year, and decorations that include witches, graveyards, 
ghosts, black cats (not for the sake of the cat, but its associations with 
witchcraft), etcetera.  Its not the innocent event I once thought it was.  

I wonder if the Israelites in Biblical times thought the same thing about 
dancing around, and joining the celebrations to pagan gods as people have
thought about celebrating the occult at Halloween - oh its nothing, its not
real, its just having a good time ?  God surely didn't view it as okay !

But what about children, what do you tell them, what do you do, do they
still have the same innocence about it that I once did about trick or 
treating ?  Can you allow them join their peers in trick-or-treating without
compromising your family's relationship to God ?  Certainly you can't keep
them from seeing all the hoopla over this night, because it is all around,
everywhere.

Leslie

RE:          <<< Note 295.7 by KAHALA::JOHNSON_L "Leslie Ann Johnson" >>>
                     -< Growing awareness and uneasiness >-


.As I've grown older, and have become more aware of how the struggle between
.good and evil permeates all of life, know that on one side lies God and life,
.and on the other side is all that leads to corruption and permanent death, 

 We'll have only to read the newspapers or watch the news on TV the day after
 to see how true this is. 

.occult are increasing, not decreasing, and my uneasiness about it has grown
.to such an extent, that I have a difficult time with all the Halloween 
.advertising, the huge volume of horror movies and television shows that are 
.shown at this time of year, and decorations that include witches, graveyards, 

 I'm bothered by all of this, but I'm really irritated by the movie out
 now called "The Nightmare before Christmas"..



.But what about children, what do you tell them, what do you do, do they
.still have the same innocence about it that I once did about trick or 
.treating ?  Can you allow them join their peers in trick-or-treating without
.compromising your family's relationship to God ?  Certainly you can't keep
.them from seeing all the hoopla over this night, because it is all around,
.everywhere.



 This is where I am right now...from what I can see, my son Scott still
 has a certain innocence about it, though I'm not too pleased with the
 costume he's wearing.  As long as we've lived in New England it has been
 a tradition to gather with this family, and though we are now divorced
 the tradition remains and it was always a pleasant evening. I believe it
 is possible to let the kids join their peers without compromising their
 relationship to God, though perhaps others disagree with me.  I'm praying
 that once I have my son more involved in church that other things will
 take the place of this.




 Jim

    re: .7
    
    I like what you said about the Israelites!
    
    In general:
    
    What do y'all (yes, I'm a Texan) do as an adult Christian when invited
    to Halloween parties and similar situations?
    I've been invited to one being thrown by a coworker, tho it is a
    Halloween/Birthday party for her husband (who I don't know).
    
    I'd be interested in what others think/do.
    
    peace
    phil
    (aka p)

Up until about 5 years ago, Halloween "celelebrations" in Australia were 
pretty much unheard of, apart from among enclaves of Americans. Now even the 
day-care centres are into it "educating" kids about witches, vampires, ghosts 
etc. 
Last year was not so graphic - I had David go in a Batman suit (Batman being 
a 'goodie') - he was asked why he wasn't dressed up as something scary! 
My son is staying HOME on Friday. And I have told his carers WHY - ie it is 
not a Christian celebration, is not even remotely in accordance with our 
beliefs.
The cemetary attached to the church we attend is almost always desecrated on 
Halloween - there is reportedly a coven that meets there regularly. The Elders 
of the church are trying to get the cemetary "de-tombstoned" and turned into a 
park. (It has not been used as a cemetary for over 100 years) Hopefully that 
would make it more attractive to people, and less attractive to nutters.

Chele

    Re: Note 295.10 by GIDDAY::BURT
    
>The cemetary attached to the church we attend is almost always desecrated on 
>Halloween - there is reportedly a coven that meets there regularly.
    
    Suggest that a bunch of your church's christians guard the place
    overnight.  Take flash cameras, tape recorders, and dress in white.
    Inform the local police that you will be holding a prayer vigil.  If you
    need any help, I'd be glad to come along and support you.  (Subject to
    Petria agreeing of course...)
    
    James

	Richard,

	My husband and I have ceased any recognition of Halloween for
	the past 3 years.  We typically go out to dinner during trick-or-treat
	time.  

	Now that we have a child, friends will ask me what Emily is doing
	for Halloween, and I take that opportunity to explain that I
	don't care for Halloween or what it represents.  I've found that
	most friends leave it there.  Some ask if I celebrated as a child,
	and I tell them I did.  I think that stands as further witness to
	the changes the Lord has brought about in my life.

	Oddly enough, I've had the most difficulty with family.  My sisters
	seem to respect my decision, though one *did* have a costume party
	on Sunday to celebrate her daughter's late October birthday.  After
	being assured that this was *not* a Halloween party (no decorations,
	no Halloween theme, just costumes), I allowed my mother to make Emily
	a clown costume.  All the children there were under 5, and the costumes
	came off after about 1/2 hour.  I don't know that I'd allow it again
	in the future, because I think the potential is there for this to
	evolve into a Halloween party as my neice ages.

	My mother has a real problem with our position.  She can only see
	it as us depriving Emily of a fun time.  At one point in the past week,
	she said, "Well, Christmas is a Pagan holiday!".  I was a bit hurt
	by her disrespect for my Christian beliefs, but didn't bother to go
	into a long explanation as to why I celebrate Christmas and not 
	Halloween (she wouldn't have been receptive to the talk at the time,
	and much of it has already been said).  Needless to say, I'm praying
	for her.

	I don't know how we'll handle the years ahead, as Emily gets old
	enough to notice the hoopla, but I do know that Halloween will not
	be a holiday as far as the Jennison family is concerned.

	Karen

That's tough, Karen.  I know my parents had a lot of flack from their
relatives (especially my live-in grandparents) because they didn't deceive
us into thinking an obese old man would come crawling down our chimney
around the end of the year.  We coped just fine by knowing our gifts came 
from real people who actually cared...

Like those in Oz, halloween hasn't much here until the last 8 or so years, 
so we've never had that problem with our kids / relative, etc.  Though
the habit is growing, we've never had more than one bunch of little kids 
around knocking for sweets.  I told them we don't worship that god (the 
devil), but the real one, and they left rather subdued...

								Andrew

Elaine and I have contributed in this discussion in the past versions
of this conference and our position has not changed.

Laura is now almost 14 and has never done holloween. Since she was old
enough to try and understand the reasons why, we have explained it to
her. Now she will admit to anyone, with or without us being around that she
has not missed out on anything and fully understands and agrees with the
position we had taken. 

Was it easy??  Mildly complicated at times, but yes it was easy. If you
have convictions, you can follow them. If you are uneasy or uncomfortable
about holloween, it's probably cause it's wrong. You have to listen to
that little voice in you questioning things, cause it is probably right.

Did I do holloween when I was young. Sure, but I was ignorant of the facts
then. Once my mind and heart was opened, I had no excuse.

Cheers,

John I.

RE: Note 295.12 by CNTROL::JENNISON "John 3:16 - Your life depends on it!" 

Karen,

Thankyou for sharing about how deal with Halloween.  My wife and I also made 
a decision about 5 years ago not to participate as a family in halloween. My
family, especially my mother and my wifes mother was quite adiment (sp?) about
the whole thing, but in time they seemed to have gotten over it.  I think that 
grandparents that don't recognize halloween as antichristian do feel that 
there kids are a bit fanatical in their beliefs if they don't allow their 
grandkids to participate in trick or treat!  As for Christmas well 'JESUS IS 
THE REASON FOR THE SEASON', I always use John 3:16 "For God SO loved the World
that He gave..." well thats another topic. 

Shalom,
	Richard

RE: Note 295.14 by GENRAL::INDERMUEHLE "Stonehenge Alignment Service"
                      -< Knowledge should change things >-

John Hi!

Thanks so much for confirming what I believe the desired outcome of this
can be.

> Laura is now almost 14 and has never done holloween. Since she was old
> enough to try and understand the reasons why, we have explained it to
> her. Now she will admit to anyone, with or without us being around that she
> has not missed out on anything and fully understands and agrees with the
> position we had taken. 

My youngest has never participated in halloween and he is also the one that 
seems to get a little excited about the idea of trick or treating.  You have 
encouraged me and I pray that my two sons will have the same testimony as your
daughter Laura. 

Shalom,
Richard

    I was wondering about what everyone does about those that visit their
    house. Our kids 8 yrs and 3yrs dont trick or treat. Last year we went
    out for dinner, the year before we handed out candy. I felt kind of
    driven out of my house last year. I was thinking of passing out tracks
    and candy together this year.
    
    what does everyone else do?
    
    Dennis (mostly Read Only)
    

 I rarely have any any trick or treaters, living in an apartment.  This
 year, however, I'll be in church :-)




Jim

    good point about church but I'm home around 7:30-7:45 from our evening
    worship. Just enough time for a couple of door bangers.
    
    Any practical ideas?
    
    Dennis

Hi Dennis, and good to see you!  We were 'out' one Halloween, I think the 
tract and candy idea is good.  I know someone handed out gospels too.  
Trouble is, the kids who come round are very young, and in a totally 
flippant mood.  Difficult to get through to them, while specially targetted 
tracts could be read later with value...

							Andrew

 Hmmm...tell the pastor to s  t  r  e  t  c  h the message a little? :-)



 Good question.  I think if I were home, and trick or treaters had access to
 my apartment, I'd probably hand out a bit of candy, and tracts..or, perhaps
 Macdonald's coupons and tracts.  




Jim


Btw..Welcome to Christian!




Jim

    When we've been at home during the "Trick or Treat" hours, we've
    usually handed out some sort of treat with an attached tract (I
    remember one title was "God Has a Treat for You").
    
    Our village limits the hours for trick-or-treating to something like
    3:00pm to 5:30pm.
    
    Mark L.

� Macdonald's coupons and tracts.  

trick  * and * treat ? ;-)

					Andrew

    Handing out tracts is a good idea. This is my second year of 
    non-participation. Last year I just kept the porch light off and I
    did not get many bells ringing, which I ignored.
    
    Some of my Catholic friends with children have organized parties in
    which the children are encouraged to pick a Bible character or a 
    Saint to portray. In a gathering of Christians this could be not only
    fun for the children, but used instructionally.  
    
    I think it would send an improper signal to the world if our children
    went door to door in religious costumes; this could be misinterpreted
    as making Jesus and the Stars of our faith just another mythical 
    character.....it could be unintentionally blasphemous in the context of
    the meaning of Halloween and it might encourage those who wish to 
    tear down the faith to wear Christian costumes as an intentional 
    blasphemy. [Like Madonna and others blasphemously wearing crosses.]
    
    As Christianity developed and a date was chosen to focus on Christ's
    Incarnation and Birth, part of the choice for the date may have been
    to divert converts from a pagan day of celebration. In this way, 
    Christians in a sense have 'redeemed' a day on the 'pagan calander' and
    redirected focus to Jesus Christ. [I have not read up on how or why
    the date was selected or determined to be the date of His Birth.] 
    The Incarnation of Jesus is a historical fact and therefore the 
    assertion that "Christmas is a pagan holiday" is incorrect. It is
    established to honor and recognize the great Mystery and Grace of
    Jesus' Birth; therefore, it is Christian.
    
    Mary
    
    
    
    

| <<< Note 295.24 by JUPITR::MNELSON >>>



| Last year I just kept the porch light off and I did not get many bells 
| ringing, which I ignored.

	I bet my mother wishes she did this. One of the kids costume had a
metal piece that they carried. When the kid got to the door he turned around to
say something to his friends and the metal piece hit the window in the door and
cracked it. :-(   

| Some of my Catholic friends with children have organized parties in which the 
| children are encouraged to pick a Bible character or a Saint to portray. In a 
| gathering of Christians this could be not only fun for the children, but used 
| instructionally.

	I agree that this is a good idea. It would be a blast to do stuff like
this with the kids.

| I think it would send an improper signal to the world if our children went 
| door to door in religious costumes; this could be misinterpreted as making 
| Jesus and the Stars of our faith just another mythical character

	I can see your point, but it's one that I am having trouble with. Does
it matter what the other people think? If God knows why you have dressed your
kids up in religious costumes, isn't that all that matters? Isn't He the only
one we are to please?

| it could be unintentionally blasphemous in the context of the meaning of 
| Halloween and it might encourage those who wish to tear down the faith to 
| wear Christian costumes as an intentional blasphemy. 

	Mary, couldn't this also be said of anything a Christian does? If one
worries what the world will think of their actions or are worried that someone
or many people will do satire about your actions, then we might as well give up
religion or praising God all together. Yes, these things are going to happen.
But if we stop or decide to not do something for God because others may do
satire on it, then aren't we doing one (or many) thing less for the name of
Christ? 

| [Like Madonna and others blasphemously wearing crosses.]

	I think I know why you mentioned Madonna, but just to clarify, it is
based on her actions on stage, right?



Glen

    Our church started something this year to make it up to the kids since
    we don't celebrate this holiday.  We now celebrate the Feast of Purim!
    All the girls get to dress as Queen Esther, the boys as Mordecai, and
    they all make fun of Haman.  Hebrew treats (i.e., authentic cookies)
    were also provided.  The kids really seemed to enjoy it.
    
    Mike

    While we were going through the book of Esther, I once asked a Jewish
    co-worker if the feast of Purim was still celebrated.  He said "Oh,
    yeah -- it's a biggie."  He described it as akin to Halloween, with the
    kids all dressing up, etc. :-)
    
    Mark L.

    Exactly why we do it now.  The spiritual lessons are important too, the
    kids learn as they act out the story (Deuteronomy 6:7).  It's a good
    idea to know some Hebrew folks familiar with the celebrations too.
    
    Mike

>   -< even I almost dressed up >-
    
    Mike, why don't you dress up as Haman.  I'm sure you'd get lots of
    attention from the kids. :-)
    

    I would've, but I didn't like the triangular hat he wore.

Better not eat those Hamantaschen if you're likely to have to take a drug
test anytime soon.

The poppy seeds will make you show up positive for heroin.

/john

    a Jewish guy in my group was talking about Purim and said that it was
    the one festival where you were supposed to get blind stinkin'
    plastered or something to that effect...
    
    May not want to take it quite that far...
    :-)
    
    

>    a Jewish guy in my group was talking about Purim and said that it was
>    the one festival where you were supposed to get blind stinkin'
>    plastered or something to that effect...

I imagine that this is an individual "celebration" not unlike how some
people celebrate New Year's Eve.  I doubt this is the cultural norm,
though revelry is likely to be part of the celebration.

MM

>Better not eat those Hamantaschen if you're likely to have to take a drug
>test anytime soon.
    
    well he had a substitute made of sugar cookie dough and filled with
    fruit.  I'm assuming you're talking about the triangular shaped
    cookies.

>>    a Jewish guy in my group was talking about Purim and said that it was
>>    the one festival where you were supposed to get blind stinkin'
>>    plastered or something to that effect...
>
>I imagine that this is an individual "celebration" not unlike how some
>people celebrate New Year's Eve.  I doubt this is the cultural norm,
>though revelry is likely to be part of the celebration.

There is at least something to this.  I don't know how prevalent it is, but
there was some real encouragement in this direction.  When we studied Esther,
I remember that there was a Talmudic exhortation to drink until "You can no
longer distinguish between 'Blessed be Mordecai' and 'Cursed be Haman.'"

That's nearly an exact quote.

Paul

Hi Paul,

I've heard that over in the UK too.  And illustrations around it.  It got
this far.  Or maybe came from here.  Sad.

								Andrew

What is commonly called "Halloween", i.e. the running around in costumes,
has nothing to do with its name, which everyone reading this conference
knows means "The Eve of the Feast of All Saints".  [BTW, there's a major
liturgical blow-out at All Saints � Ashmont, Dorchester -- Solemn High
Lord's Supper with Mozart's Missa Brevis, Britten's Te Deum in C, guest
soloists, strings, and the new Fisk Organ on Wednesday, 1 November at 7:30pm.
Contact me if you're interested.  But I digress.]

Thirty years ago, Halloween was just a fun dress-up day.  Now we have people
who practice Satanism as their religion and look forward to this annual
celebration.  If you own a cat, especially a black one, and hope to keep it,
I suggest you keep it indoors for the next two weeks.  There is a major
increase in missing cats during late October.

It's time for other people to step back from this celebration.  Replace it
with parties for children where the only approved costumes are positive role
models.  Have your children represent heroic ideals rather than exalting evil
anti-heroes.

Running around in evil costumes -- dressed as O.J. or Dracula or the like --
is not good for developing young minds.

Evil is real, and the cult that has developed around Halloween is a way for
the devil to "wander through the world seeking the ruin of souls", i.e. anyone
it can get its evil hands on.  Stay away from it.

(Followers of Wicca also observe a revitalization of the old pagan festival
called "Samhain" at this time, but claim that their celebration has naught to
do with the evil which has entered the commercial celebration of Halloween.
Yet they worship "the Goddess," a false god placed in their minds by the
deceiver of souls.)

/john

    
    The trappings of commercial Halloween are all around us - in all the 
    stores, decorations on people's front yards, print advertisments, 
    posters for horror movies in video shops next to the pizza place.  
    It is impossible to not avoid all this. What do we do for our children? 
    On the one hand, it hardly feels right to promote the day (or season 
    as it sees to be becoming) by doing anything at all. Yet do we make our 
    children feel left out, alone amongst their peers by not allowing them 
    to go door to door in the neighborhood or to dress up in a costume or 
    attend any of the parties?  If we're not home-schooling, do we keep them
    home on the days when Halloween activities are going on?

    My husband and I disagree on this. I say we explain what its all about, 
    discourage drawings and activities that deal with ghosts, ghoblins, 
    black cats, witches, etcetera, but allow the child to dress up as a 
    princess, bunny rabbit or whatever other non-occult thing they want 
    to be, and go to the party (within reasonable limits) and go door to 
    door collecting candy. My husband feels none of this should be allowed.
    I wish this holiday did not exist, but it does. What do we do about it?

    Along similar lines, are there any of you with young children who do not 
    do the usual practicies such as tooth fairy, easter bunny, and santa claus?
    How does it affect your children to be set apart from their peers in this
    way? Have they talked about it all to you?

    Leslie

    .38
    
    I agree with you Leslie.  We have in my church led our families to
    celebrate a "Harvest Time" during the entire month of October.  We have
    a costume party which only allows positive role models, no goblins,
    ghosts or witches.
    
    It is a wonderful time for all of us, beginning with an Old Fashioned
    Sunday, we get to wear our late 1800's early 1900's costumes, which is
    then followed by Friend Day, and next is Pumpkin Sunday and lastly is
    Harvest Sunday, which is a day we spend in an all out effort to reach
    the lost with the gospel.
    
    Do my kids get caught up in the "ugliness" of this commercial
    celebration, yes.  They're boys; boogers, snot and gas are fun to them
    too!  I don't spend a lot of effort Bible beating the evils of
    holloween to my children.  I simply make the ground rules and as they
    have questions, I answer them.
    
    Nancy

    John, October 31st has been a Satanic holiday for hundreds, maybe even
    thousands of years.  As I said in the LitterBox, it is 1 of 3 of their
    high "holy" days that occur this time of year.  And it's not just black
    cats, it's also children.  They even have "surrogate mothers" who's sole
    purpose is to give birth to a sacrifice.  The "black mass" handbooks
    are full of rituals all calling for detestable and unmentionable things
    to be done to all sorts of animals and children.  They even spend the
    month of October praying that Christian clergymen are hindered and fall 
    into immorality.  The *LEAST* we should be doing is pleading the
    precious blood of Jesus as a hedge of protection around our families
    and pastors, ministers, or priests.
    
>    Along similar lines, are there any of you with young children who do not 
>    do the usual practicies such as tooth fairy, easter bunny, and santa claus?
>    How does it affect your children to be set apart from their peers in this
>    way? Have they talked about it all to you?
    
    Leslie, my 4 children are of ages 11, 10, 8, and 5.  They have never
    participated in these holidays.  Instead we celebrate Advent and
    Hannakah during the Christmas season and focus on Yeshua.  In our house 
    it is Resurrection Sunday or the Feast of Firstfruits, not Ishtar Sunday.  
    For costume celebrations, we have the Feast of Purim (in February) instead 
    of Halloween.  In the past, we would take the kids out to eat for
    Halloween.  Typically it was a local pizza place with all sorts of
    arcade games.  This year, our church is starting a worship service on
    Halloween night so that is where we will be.  At school, so many kids
    were staying home on Halloween that they were forced to compromise and
    provide something special for the kids in the media center on that day.
    Finally, they know that the tooth fairy is me. ;-)
    
    btw - my pastor did a special service on Halloween a few weeks ago. 
    We've been supplying all the major bookstores in the valley metro area
    free copies of it and the "History of Halloween" article.  About 5,000
    have been given out so far and response has been tremendously positive.
    
    Mike

    
    	We do not celebrate Halloween.  We handed out candy the first
    	year of our marriage, but not since then.  We have always gone
    	out that night instead.  (side note: now the waitresses are
    	dressing up - hard to get away!)  It has been more difficult
    	for us now that we have kids, because there are 8 cousins that
    	all celebrate, and we have to always explain.  My mother is
    	the worst, every year challenging us to allow dressing up.
    
    	I have a neice whose birthday is October 26th.  My sister has
    	had Halloween parties for her birthday the past two years (why
    	a 3 year old needs a theme party is beyond me ...), and we did
    	allow Emily to wear a clown costume, as it was a birthday party
    	first and foremost.  We hope that as she gets older, *she* will
    	chose not to dress up.  Happily, this year, my sister is having
    	a non-Halloween party at a pizza parlor!
    
    	Emily is quite bothered by the ghosts.  People have them up all
    	over the place, and Emily keeps telling me, "I don't like
        Halloweens" and points to the ghosts.  I just tell her I don't
    	like them either.  When her doctor asked her Friday what she was
    	going to be for Halloween, she said, "I'm not going to be a
        Halloween!"  The concept is still foreign to her, Thank God!
    
    	I'd have to say, Leslie, that I chose not to have Emily participate
    	in trick-or-treating, as it then comes down to having to choose
    	where to draw lines.  I'd rather keep it as little a part of our
    	lives as possible.
    
    	For Christmas, Emily knows that this is the celebration of Jesus'
    	birth.  She is intrigued by the Santa Claus character, but does not
    	"believe" in Santa.  We basically don't mention him at all, and if
    	he comes up, we talk about him like we'd talk about Winnie the Pooh
        - as though he's some sort of cartoon character.  We don't give
    	gifts from Santa, and if people sign gift tags as Santa, we don't
    	follow along.  We just say, "this is from Nana" or whoever.
    
    	There is no Easter Bunny, Easter basket, Great Pumpkin, or Tooth
    	Fairy.  Emily delights in all the holidays as time to get dressed
    	up, go to church, worship God, and be with family.  She doesn't
    	seem to be showing signs of feeling left out.  Hopefully, our
    	omission of such things from an early age will make it natural
    	and easy for Emily to exclude them from her life as she gets older.
    
    	Karen                              

We do some of the 'pretend' people, but we told our kids up front that they
were pretend.  Like Santa, we told the kids right at the beginning that there
was no such person as Santa Claus, but that it was fun to pretend about
Santa.  This let them deal with Santa in their own way, while knowing it was
only pretend, and without ever having been deceived by us.

We've found that in many cases, just stating disapproval works better for the
KIDS process than outright forbidding things, though of course there are many
things that do need to be forbidden.  But giving the kids the chance to
reject things on their own has more lasting effects.  Power rangers was an
example.  When those things first started, our son got a few power rangers
things - like power ranger trading cards.  When I began to be aware of what
they were, I watched the show with them one Saturday, and then told them that
we would no longer watch that show.  I didn't brand it as evil and horrible,
I just said that the power rangers called on higher powers other than God to
help them, and that was a very bad idea.  My son asked if he had to throw
away the power ranger cards he already had, and I said no, since he already
had them he could keep them.  About two weeks later he came to me on his own
initiative and told me that he was throwing them away because he didn't want
to call on higher powers other than God either.

We've done the same with Haloween.  We have allowed them to do some dressing
up, etc (healthy costumes), but I've said that I'm not into Haloween, that
there really are people who worship Satan and this is their special holiday,
and I don't want to participate.  I haven't been really hostile to it, but
they are gradually getting more and more hostile to it on their own.

Kids *ARE* intelligent.  We need to prohibit some obviously harmful things. 
But in many cases, simply presenting them with the information, like what
Haloween really is, enables them to see the truth for themselves and choose
it.  That stays with them much better than if we just force them.

Paul

 A friend of mine took his daughter (then 4) to the grocery store right around
 Christmas.  as they were going through the store a woman came up and started
 talking to the little girl asking her if Santa was coming soon..the little
 girl looked at her and said "Santa's not real"!  The woman looked at the
 father as if he was the worst form of abuser on earth.  He and his wife
 raised their kids to know the *real* reason for Christmas.



 Jim

    We had a bunch of flourescent orange signs made up at church for people
    to put in their windows.  The black writing surrounding a cross says,
    "Because of our Christian beliefs and our love for the Lord Jesus
    Christ, we do not celebrate Halloween."  The bottom of the sign quotes
    Ephesians 5:11
    
    And praise God a couple witches were saved last night!  They need lots
    of prayer still because of the spiritual and physical battles.  
    
    Mike

I think this sort of thing has much more of a grip in the U.S. than it has
in the UK.  Especially halloween.  Kids have been round the doors maybe 3
times over the past 5 years, but I explain that we don't worship the devil
etc, and dont' celebrate his evil ways, and they just move on.  Usually a
bit mind-blown, but the first time (only), the daughter of a local
Chirstian was with them...  Some people give out small Testaments, which is
a good idea if you're more oraganised than I am. ;-} 

As for Father Christmas - we told our lads the truth, that we give gifts to
celebrate Jesus being born - God coming into the world, and the practise
was started by a man called [St.] Nicholas, who gave presents to poor
children without them knowing who they came from.  They get the fun of
running St Nicholas into Santa Claus, without the uncomfortable feeling
that the central heating is liable to get clogged up by an overweight
bearded stranger crawling in uninvited.  They know it's me ("It's just dad
stuck in the central heating again..."). 

I woudn't have the face to teach them consistent lies, and expect them to 
exercise faith in areas where they cannot see evidence either.

I don't think we have any other fictitious figures here.  The 'Easter 
Bunny' hasn't got a grip - it's just a word on seasonal cards, which we 
ignore as irrelevant.

Oh!  And I *am* the tooth fairy.  Regard all other claimants as imposters.
At least, in my house ;-)  I nearly blew the bank when my parents left
their dentures in a glass by the bed some years back, but was bailed out
when they bought them back the next morning! 

Now that my youngest is 21 (next Sunday), I no longer have those queries
about "What *do* you do with all those teeth?" 


							Andrew

p.s.  Anyone want a packet of second hand (only one previous owner) milk
teeth, in good condition?  Any reasonable offers considered, could post... 

Praise the LORD, Mike!  that's tremendous!  1 Corinthians 6:11 ...

							Andrew

    We just heard the news that one of our churchs is doing a different
    kind of haunted house.   It has all the blood and guts that normally
    appears but at the end it has a cofin and talks about all the evils of
    halloween and this voice speaks.  Arise.  And A thirteen year old
    rises up and jesus stand by her confin turns his back to her and the
    voice says depart from me I never knew you.  The girl let out a hidious
    scream begging for a second chance.  Then you are escorted out where
    counselors are waiting to minitry to you.  Its been doing wonders.. 
    Many people have giving there hearts to christ because of this so forth
    haunted house.  
                                                  

    
    	Paul,
    
    	We aren't really at a point of needing to forbid.  We basically
    	just avoid the things that other parents do that build up the
    	fantasies of Santa et al.  For example, my sister-in-law once
    	told me how incredibly excited her kids were for Santa, in OCTOBER!
    
    	At the ages of 3 and 5, most of the excitement had come from
    	her talking about Santa frequently.  When her son was 2, they
    	would "call Santa" to tell him how well he was progressing with
    	potty training.  We just omit all references, and if "Santa" comes
    	up, we explain the legend of Santa.  
    
    	When Emily has had outside influences (esp. references to Power
    	Rangers from cousins), we just state, "I don't like Power Rangers."
    
    	It only took about 2 mentions for Emily to stop even saying the
    	name.
    
    	Karen
    

    Re: .47
    
    today's 700 club did a special on this church's dramatic Gospel
    presentation.

 I'm not sure if I support that sort of evangelism.  We had a play at our
 church about 18 months ago that had a similar approach..and it wound up
 offending many people, including church members.




 Jim

    Mike did you by in chance get the name of that church.  I couldnt find
    it?

    I think it was Hope (something?) Chapel and may have been in the Ohio
    area.
    
    Mike

    Thanks alot bro.  My wife saw the same program and heard colorado
    springs right after it so she thinks there is a church here also that
    is doing that.  Did you hear anything relating to that?

    no, I went back to work after that

    OH well. Thanks anyway.  May God bless you in everything you set your
    hand to do today.