Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Hi Bob,
    
    Sounds you like you have a *thinker* on your hands.  I have one too,
    but he's artistic, so he draws while the teacher is teaching... we've
    tried everything to pull Matthew into reality, but when he daydreams,
    the world is at his feet and he just doesn't respond.
    
    :-) :-)
    
    Nancy

    Nancy, I know what I'm about to write here should probably be placed
    somewhere else, but in response to you comments on "thinker"...
    
    Ya, a thinker... we've tried to get him to stay focused, but... he just
    stays in his world. What is most amazing is, he still passes the tests
    on the subjects he had been day-dreaming through..! He'll tell us, he's
    heard every word spoken..!?!
    
    My oldest son does his day-dreaming through drawings.. His drawing
    capabilities are incredible.. Unfortunately, if what he draws is what
    he's thinking, he needs to be re-channeled quickly.. I'm talking doom
    and gloom, blood and goar, dark and colorless...
    
    When he wants to, he creates incredible and beautiful drawings. BUT, in
    school, while he's suppose to be listening, these creaters of doom come
    out, onto the paper...
    
    He has created some beautifully Christian pieces as well, for his youth
    group. 
    
    If only we could get him to tell us what he feels, when he draws what
    he draws, when he draws.. (if you know what I mean)..
    
    

Excerpts from _Please_Understand_Me_, David Keirsey & Marilyn Bates,
Gnosology Books Ltd., 1984

About Thinking vs Feeling Children

When asked to obey in a situation he does not quite understand, does
the child tend to ask for reasons or does the child tend to seek to
please?

The child who prefers the "thinking" way (T) is likely to want rea-
sons for being asked to do something, while the child who prefers the
"feeling" way (F) is apt to want to know that he is pleasing the other
person by his obedience. The F child tends to be more aware of [oth-
ers'] physical and social comfort or discomfort. The F child is apt
to provide small services for his parents or teachers and needs to know
that these services are recognised and appreciated. The F child is most
sensitive to the emotional climate of his home, perhaps becoming phys-
ically ill if subjected to constant conflict and insecurity. The F child
is apt to enjoy listening to adults discuss family and neighborhood
happenings, while the T child would soon turn to other activities. The
F child is likely to show facial mobility and to verbalize reactions...responds
easily to expression of physical affection...is more likely to cry more
easily than the T child...

The T child seems more capable of detaching himself from unfavorable
emotional climates, even being blithely unaware of distress of those
around him. The T child is likely to ask for objective explanations
for everything and is also as likely to be dismayed and impatient with
such answers as, "Because I said so!" The F child is more likely to
accept the "because" answer, and, although not content, apt to go on
about his business as if his questions had been answered. The T child
is likely to block off facial expressions of emotion in crisis...may
not want to be touched and may have difficulty in approaching a par-
ent with affection...apt not to display a reaction when scolded or pun-
ished.

Although the F child seems more vulnerable than the T child to the ap-
proval or disapproval of a parent or teacher, this is usually mere ap-
pearance. The T child only seems indifferent and unresponsive. Inside,
he may be hurting just as much as the more expressive F child.

           <<< YUKON::DISK$ARCHIVE:[NOTES$LIBRARY]CHRISTIAN.NOTE;1 >>>
                               -< CHRISTIAN-V7 >-
================================================================================
Note 19.45                        Poet's Corner                         45 of 48
BSS::GROVER "The CIRCUIT_MAN"                        36 lines   4-OCT-1993 09:52
                      -< An interesting "almost poem"..! >-
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I've got a short poem (somewhat of a), I'll not reveal the author until 
    the end..!

    It goes like this;


    			Confusion

    	There was anger in his heart
    	But love in his tears,
    	Acceptance came,
    	But forgiveness was to late

    AND the author is; (flip the page)
    

    My twelve year old son..!

    I had seen this on the wall, in his classroom, at a parent's night. I
    had asked the teacher for it, when she was done. She informed me she
    had to keep it, cause she loved it so much... So, I copied it onto a
    piece of paper... I had stuck it into my wallet.. and just found it
    this morning, after about a year..!

    I remember asking the teacher if she was sure he wrote it.. She insists
    she was watching him. She saw no books or other material. She even
    looked through countless poetry books and such, to be sure he hadn't
    plagiarized from something already written. She even asked some "poetry
    freak teachers" if they had ever seen those words... They had not..

    I asked my son about it.., his answer was... "I was day-dreaming and
    the words just popped into my head, I was suppose to be listening, but
    I just thought of these words, so I wrote them down"..

    Bob G.

    

     Notes 284.1 - 284.4 have been moved from topic 19.45 - 19.48.
    
    Continue discussion here.
    
    Nancy
                                               
    

    
    		The Keirsey / Bates book was pretty good, but, they
    	are not Christians.
    
    		For Christian psychology, the Littauers are exellent,
    	particularly w.r.t. molestation victims.  Their book "Freeing
    	the Mind from Memories that Bind" was exellent, and they do
    	tests in it similar to the Myers-Briggs.
    
    							/Greg

>    		The Keirsey / Bates book was pretty good, but, they
>    	are not Christians.

Have you spoken with them?  Don't you mean their book is not geared
for just the Christian audience?

Their material is certainly NOT anti-Christian, Greg, but thanks for 
your assessment and recommendation.

MM

    Hi Mark,
    
    I read your extract and am curious does the book say anything about
    FEELING THINKERS... because that is EXACTLY how Matthew is.  He is a
    thinker and artistic, but he also feels things very deeply and has
    great empathy for those around him. [except his brother :-) :-)]
    
    Nancy

    Bob,
    
    BTW, I think your son's dark side of art is a matter of prayer.  Prayer
    for wisdom and discernment for you and your wife as parents and prayer
    for your son that he can express himself verbally at some point.
    
    Now not in reference to your son at all, I need to clarify a little bit
    about Matthew's personality and where some of his traits were
    developed.
    
    My ex-husband and I often had loud abusive arguments in the home, and
    while not "in front" of Matthew, he certainly could hear them.  At
    around age 3 he developed an imaginary companion, "Little Matthew" he
    called him.  Little Matthew became a friend to which Matthew could
    escape with while arguments were going on between his father and I. 
    Matthew virtually blocked out and doesn't remember much about that
    period of his childhood, because he lived in a "safer world" then that
    which was around him.  Now each child's sensitivities vary.  
    
    I know a boy who did the same thing with *normal* parents.  But because
    his father's authoritarian figure in the home was very strong, he chose
    to block out his father in his world.  Yet, to hear this same boy talk
    today as an adult, you'd say, he had the BEST home parents could offer.
    
    To further discuss these diversities, dream worlds, sensitivities,
    Matthew also feels a great deal, while he may not show it READILY, he
    does show it and his behavior towards others and his compassionate view
    of life is demonstrated by his ACTIONS.
    
    Yet, he still daydreams, it's become a habit when something is
    uncomfortable, he knows where to go.  How do you deal with this from
    the biblical point of view to a young Christian man who loves God, but
    still retreats?
    
    Nancy

I'm not an expert and my book is loaned out.  What i do know is that
this isn't an either/or proposition, but that people are a composite 
of both in varying degrees.  In other words, we all are thinker-feelers,
or feeler-thinkers.  Some of us are right-handed, but can still use
our left hand.  Those who are equally composed of thinker-feeler are
akin to the ambidextrous persons who use their left and right hands equally.
The point of this being that you son can be a strong thinker and have
deep feelings, or a deep feeler and think things through.

The T-F grouping is one of four major groupings which make up a composite 
picture of a person's temperament.

Mark

    	Hi Mark,
    
    		I read the book and it is neither pro nor anti-Christian.
    	The problem is this, Mark: scripture tells us that we do not walk
    	by sight, we walk by _faith_.  This book would help you to
    	determine what type of personality category that you would fit
    	into, i.e., thinker, judgemental, emotions based, etc. but...
    	it would give you no practical scriptural advice about what to do 
    	about it.  It would help identify weaknesses to watch out for.  
    	If you are the feelings-based kind of person, then you have to
    	watch out for getting embroiled in your emotional realm.  I.E.,
    	Letting your emotions affect your judgement.  That  is part of 
    	your psuche.  Similarly, if you are a "thinker", you have to watch
    	out for making bad conclusions based upon insufficient or erroneous
    	information.  You have to watch out for your intellect, - another
    	part of your psuche.  Both like to be fed, and relate to the tree
    	of the knowledge of good and evil.  We are not psuches.  We are 
    	spirits, and we _have_ a psuche.  Therefore, we have to be Spirit
    	-conscious, and feeding off of the tree of life, which is Christ.
    	Psuche-consciousness can be dangerous.  There Were Two Trees In the
    	Garden, written by Rick Joyner is an exellent book about that.
    	Also, the Lester Sumrall 4-book series about the Total Man.
    
    			The other thing, too, Mark, is that I always watch
    	out for trying to categorize people because every person is unique
    	and different.  If we try to categorize, we run the risk of making a
    	mistake.
    						Regards,
    								/Greg

>    Yet, he still daydreams, it's become a habit when something is
>    uncomfortable, he knows where to go.  How do you deal with this from
>    the biblical point of view to a young Christian man who loves God, but
>    still retreats?

Examine how others behave when something is uncomfortable.  My guess is that
each person has their own "habit" and is not something to deal with unless
it crosses [an undefined] line where the child is actually withdrawing for
real life (and not just discomfort).

Miranda had an imaginary friend "Hame" and Hame stayed when we moved in
1984.  Miranda was 4.  She wasn't withdrawing; but if I *had* to pin something
on it, I'd guess that she needed a playmate.

MM

.11>    	into, i.e., thinker, judgemental, emotions based, etc. but...

Important correction - not judgmental - judging.  Big difference.

>    	The problem is this, Mark: scripture tells us that we do not walk
>    	by sight, we walk by _faith_. 

I see no conflict between reading and using this book and maintaining 
a Christian walk.

>    			The other thing, too, Mark, is that I always watch
>    	out for trying to categorize people because every person is unique
>    	and different.  If we try to categorize, we run the risk of making a
>    	mistake.

But the book you recommended in .6 says that they do "tests in it similar 
to the Myers-Briggs."  I guess I don't understand how your recommendation
relates to this statement about categorizing people.

The thrust of the categorization is to help people of other categories 
(temperaments) understand why people do what they do; what are the motivational
forces behind a decision, attitude, or action.  For example, someone might
do something that rubs me the wrong way.  If I understood this someone to 
have done what he did based on temperament, I would be better able to 
communicate why what was done rubbed me the wrong way.  The point being
coming to an understanding.

Mark 

    Mark,
    
    You are absolutely correct.  Understanding the motivations or character
    behind actions of others, can bring about an understanding where we
    separate ourselves from taking responsible from others
    actions/reactions or taking responsibility when we know we've hit a
    button on that individual.
    
    There is nothing unbiblical about knowing others more intimately.
    
    Nancy

    Nancy,
    
    My son (oldest) only displays/draws these bizaar pictures during school
    or during homework time, at home...
    
    So, it would be safe to say the drawings are as a result of some major
    hastility toward school... We also know he is having an awefully hard
    time with most subject, for which he is in a special program (help
    sessions) to assist him with his studies/work...
    
    I think we are slowly getting a handle on this problem. We are working
    with the school and the youth minister at the church (He and my son get
    along REALLY well)...
    
    We are also enrolling him into an art school. A member of the church
    works at this place, and says they usually can channel misguided art
    talent onto the correct course.
    
    Bob G.
    

    Fantastic Bob!!!
    
    I also just realized it hasn't been that long since your return to
    Christ.  Which I know has had an impact [positive] on your children.
    :-) :-)  
    
    Amen!  Now I need to find something *affordable* for Matthew as far as
    Art school is concerned. :-)   I hope someday Matthew uses this talent
    for the Lord.
    
    Nancy

    re.: My return to Christ

    Ya, it was last Feb., BUT my wife and children had always been going.

    I suppose my joining them in Christ might be slowly effecting them to
    the [positive]!

    My son does drawings for youth group. Presently, they are decorating
    "their wall"... He is drawing pieces to place there.

    We also have let him play football, in school. to take out some of his
    frustrations in a positive manner. He's not real good at the game, but
    the effect on his temper has been good. He's much more mellow..! I've
    got to remember to get over to watch his game today (intramural).

    OH the challenges of being parents. Now if I could only figure out my
    17 year old daughter... BUT, we can't have everything.. A big smile
    here!!!!! I can't figure her out, BUT I love her anyway! She's really a
    great kid TOO..!!! So I'm just kid'in..
    
    Bob G.
    
    
    

    Hi everybody,
    
    I didn't know where to put this, so I figured that topic would
    be pretty good.
    
    My son, Nathan, is 7 years old.  Much like the other children
    in this topic he is a deeply feeling thinker.  He is extremely
    kind hearted and loving and performs above average in school
    for his age.  He is also very tall for his age - almost 5 feet.
    
    The problem is that older kids find him an easy target because
    they want him to prove that he is so tough (assuming he thinks
    he is tough because of his size).  They are constantly on him
    to fight.  He will not.  The only time he will get into a 
    scuffle with someone is when he is defending someone smaller
    than himself but if someone is picking on him he follows the
    turn the other cheek rule.
    
    This is causing him to become a victim.  Last year, when he
    was 6, a 12 year old beat him up on the bus and then told 
    another boy that he was going to come after Nathan with a gun.
    I talked to the school, but they did not resolve the problem to
    my satisfaction, so I took him off the bus and drove him to school.
    Feeling that keeping him safe was more important than keeping him
    on the bus.
    
    That by is in another school now and Nathan is back on the bus.
    He was doing well until I found out yesterday that a 10 year
    old has been picking on him at the bus stop.  I plan on talking
    to the boy and his parents but want to know what is the Biblical
    teaching on defending yourself.  I don't want him to grow up
    with the all-too-common victim philosophy that manifests itself
    in violence in later years but I don't want to make him feel
    that he is not good enough either.
    
    He has very low self esteem and that is not what I want for
    my child.
    
    Question is how to build him up and keep him from being a victim
    at the same time?  Does anyone else have any experience with this
    type of problem?
    
    Thanks for your help and prayers are requested,
    Pam

    The scripture that I'm always reminded of in these instances was when
    Paul had been imprisoned and his captors were in violation of the law
    because he was a Roman citizen. I remember that he refused on that
    occasion to quietly accept the situation and demanded a public apology,
    as was his right.
    I don't think God wants us to be victims and to deny ourselves of our
    rights. Sometimes it is good to turn the other cheek if we feel that
    the situation demands it, but I don't see this as being one of those
    situations because Nathan is being badly affected by it.

Hi Pam,

Some of my lads got picked on, in the same sort of problem.  They didn't 
retaliate, and were looked on as easy meat.  Two of them have low 
self-esteem.  One severely so (we had a difficult session on the phone 
last night).  I know on one occasion the oldest replied to verbal abuse in 
german (which was part of his course).  I'm not sure what it was he said, 
but it totally confused the opposition.

Interesting about Paul insisting on his legal rights in that case, because
he didn't object at the time of the flogging, etc (though he did on a later
occasion, in Acts 22:25).  I am left with the conclusion that Paul was led
by the Spirit, and in Philippi, the Spirit took him to the jailor, who was
ready for salvation, while in Jerusalem, he was 'just' delivered from the 
flogging...

The 'turn the other cheek', and 'do not resist an evil person' of Matthew 
5:39 etc is a difficult one, especially to know how to apply in Nathan's
sort of context.  I have heard this restricted to the response between
Christians, but that doesn't quite match up with the 'evil person', and
other scriptural instructions.  I would try to resolve the instruction by
'making a friend' of the bully - taking the wind out of his sails until
he's embarrassed out of his ways.  Not necessarily easy to apply that at
all!  If he could be invited round the house casually (maybe without any
reference to the bus-stop incidents - or just a tongue-in-cheek "I believe
you play together in queue..." ;-), he would see Nathan in another light,
as an individual, with a character, family, background and context, instead
as just a disconnected victim. 

Just an idea, and it might not click - it woud certainly need Nathan's 
buy-in for a start, otherwise he might see it as spoiling his home...

I'll be praying.

								Andrew

    Andrew,
    
    Your idea is worth a try.  The older boy is also in Cub Scouts
    and Nathan used to look up to him, so feels betrayed.  We
    will be having a Pack Meeting on Monday with all of the
    boys there.  I will talk to Nathan and see if we can do
    something about having that boy help out with our den during
    the party, putting in a position of leadership  and
    responsibility.  This may help the older boy with his self
    esteem also - my theory is that bullies pick on other to make
    themselves feel better.
    
    I never went through this when I was young.  My older brother
    was picked on because he was small for his age and I always
    stood up for him and beat up the other boys.  My brother did
    not appreciate this at all but I thought it was cool to 
    beat up older boys (I thought I was tough at the time - now
    I know it was not cool at all and it worked to distance myself
    and my brother because I made him look bad)
    
    Thanks for your input and prayers,
    Pam

	Andrew, have you been watching that show on Fox where 5 kids are
orphaned and are being brought up by their oldest brother? I think it's
called, "The 5 of us" or something like that. This weeks episode talked
about a similar thing, where they invited the bully over (who happened
to be a girl) and the bully and daughter became friends. Hmmmm.... any
connection? 


Glen

 I'm not sure FOX is available in Andrew's neck o' the woods.




Jim

Pam,

And don't forget that the bully is still just a 10-year-old
also.  In addition to defending your son, it is important to
teach the bullies not to act this way.  There may not be a
pleasant way, but Andrew's sounds as good as any.  You may
have to confront the school or parents.

Praying for you and your son,

Lew

P.S.  Hi, all.  Leaving once-a-week read mode as of tonight.
See chit-chat.

Hi Glen,

You're beyond me there.  I'm in the UK, and presume that 'Fox' is a 
television station or program?  They hadn't consulted me, anyway... ;-)

						Andrew