Conference yukon::christian_v7

    .0
    
    ::Marcos  What is your first name? Sorry, I don't remember.  And what
    would you like to discuss about these verses?
    
    Nancy

These verses (Matthew 7:21-27) are often quoted.  

Briefly in the first section applies to those
who call themselves followers of Christ (saying "Lord, Lord").  The persons
who proclaim their Lord, but do not do what the Lord says, will be banished
from the Lord's presence.

In the second section, you quote another section; another sotry about a 
centurion coming to Jesus to ask for healing for a servant.  When the 
Centurion showed great faith, Jesus said in Matthew 8:11-12:

 11  And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and
shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven.
 12  But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness:
there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

All this says is that people will come to Jesus Christ, the Messiah, while
the children of the kingdom, who claimed their inheritance based on relation
to Abraham, rather than to God, were going to miss out on the inheritance.
(Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our 
father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up 
children unto Abraham.)

See also the parable of in Luke 14:16-23ff.

Lastly, one must also take into account two things: (1) those "many shall 
come from the east and the west" shall come to and THROUGH Jesus (John 14:6)
(2) Man is not saved by works, but faith without works is dead, therefore
the emphasis on those who *do* the work of the Lord as opposed to those
who claim the Lord as their Lord.

Matthew 21
 28  But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first,
and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
 29  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
 30  And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said,
I go, sir: and went not.
 31  Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The
first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and
the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.


Now, Mr. Marcos, what do *you* think?

Mark

    BTW, I still didn't catch your first name.
    
    Salvation requires a "personal relationship" with God, not just
    knowledge of him.  I believe that many will come with a head knowledge
    of Christ but never truly know him.
    
    Example, you got a headache, you know that aspirin in the cabinet will
    take care of the headace, however, if you don't go and ingest that
    aspirin knowing that it's there won't do you any good.
    
    I believe the same goes for our relationship with God.  We can read the
    bottle's instructions [the Bible], we can profess great wisdom about
    the ingredients [memorize scripture], but without opening the bottle
    [ACCEPTING Christ as Savior] and ingesting [RECEIVING him into your
    heart] the aspirin, you will remain with your headache [LOST].
    
    Nancy
    
    

    To add to Nancy's entry in -1:
    
    The Bible is a spiritual book and can only be understood by those that
    are spiritually alive.

    >doeth'
    >'east and west'
    
    Okay putting these two together you get "doeth east and west"...
    
    careth to expoundeth a bitteth? :-) :-)
    
    Nancy

    -1
    
    :-) :-) :-)
    
    Oh, Romeo, Romeo wherefore art thou Romeo??? 
    
    Sir, whyest our they being so las vagueth?
    
    Juliet

>> Now, Mr. Marcos, what do *you* think?
>
>In the first string of verses the key word appeared to be 
>'doeth'
>
>In the second string of verses the key words appeared to be 
>'east and west'

Would I be correct or incorrect to assume that you may take this to mean
that it won't be only Christians (those who not only say "Lord, Lord" but 
also do His Word) but also those who "come from the east and the west" 
that will make it to heaven?

If so, you'll need to add something to this scripture because the
many that will come from the east and the west shall also come to
Someone in the process.  Test Scripture with Scripture.  Who will that 
someone to Whom these people from the east and the west come?
The answer is in Matthew 8 that you provide for us.  Since the story
is about a Centurion's faith, (as opposed to a "child of the kingdom"; 
see also Matthew 15:26 about the reference to the children being 
those of Israel - I'll reprint it below), the centurion is one who comes
from the east and the west to Christ (verse 5).

Test Scripture with Scripture.

Matthew 15
 22  And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried
unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is
grievously vexed with a devil.
 23  But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him,
saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
 24  But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the
house of Israel.
 25  Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
 26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's
bread, and to cast it to dogs.
 27  And she said, Truth, Lord: yet the dogs eat of the crumbs which fall
from their masters' table.
 28  Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be
it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very
hour.


See also Acts where the Gentiles receive the Holy Spirit (In regards to 
coming from the east and the west).

Mark

    re :    <<< Note 282.11 by VAXRIO::MARCOS >>>
    
    
    John 14:6 comes to mind.  
    
    Also, Paul writes in Ephesians 2:8,9 that we are saved by faith alone,
    not by works (all the good stuff we do) so that noone may be able to
    boast.
    
    Just off the top of my head.
    
    Jim()
    

>Sorry I am not sure I understood. By the sequence of words that you used it 
>seemed to me that you're trying to show that no matter what one does or how
>well one behaves if one does not worship Jesus one never makes it to heaven. 
>Is that correct? If it is I couldn't see how the subsequent verses that you 
>quoted corroborate this concept of yours. Are there any Biblical verse where
>Jesus demands that people worship him as a pre-requisite to enter heaven?

I mean to say that the Bible says that "no one come to the Father but by Me" 
and "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ 
is Lord."

Now, how one gets to heaven is simple: through Jesus.  What "through" means
is subjected to debate by many Christian factions, let alone those who
would postulate that Jesus doesn't figure into the question at all.

I will say that no matter what someone does (action), or is (relation by
birth such as the children of Abraham, or those who call themselves Christian),
these things don't punch your ticket to heaven.  Who Jesus is is very specific;
how Jesus is revealed to people is not so specific.  We have the sure foundation 
in the Word, and it says that God is just, that Jesus is the way to the Father,
and that it is through Jesus that people are saved.

Acts 4:12  Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other
name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

If God is just, then we must leave those who never hear of Christ to God
to deal with justly, while we go about teaching all nations.  We, to Whom
the Savior is presented and revealed, are responsible to that knowledge
and are NOT responsible for the fate of those who have not heard.  God is
responsible for them, and the overriding principles of God's love and
justice will ascertain whether those who never hear come to the Father
by The Way.

It is the age-old question to ask "what about those who never hear" and
the answer is to (a) leave God's responsibility with God and (b) leave
our responsibility with us ("Go and teach").  But what about those who never
hear?  Answer first, but what about those who have heard?

Be ye doers of the Word, as .0 says, so that when you say "Lord, Lord"
He will know you and you will know Him.  Come to Christ, whether you are
from the east or the west - come.

Mark

    
    >Then the requisite to enter heaven is that one bows to the vanity of
    >someone who demands to be called Lord?
    
    >Or that one realizes that acceptance of Jesus' doctrine of love and
    >forgiveness
    >is the way to the Father?
    
    No, this is just a statement that *EVERYONE* regardless of your
    spiritual condition, will bow their knee and confess that Jesus is
    Lord. 

>Or that one realizes that acceptance of Jesus' doctrine of love and forgiveness
>is the way to the Father?
    
    If this were so, why was it of such importance to Jesus that He go to
    Jerusalem, where He knew He would be crucified?  According to Jesus, it
    was necessary that He die, in order that we would be able to enter
    heaven.  Clearly, it is more than a matter of a doctrine of love and
    forgiveness that Jesus concerned Himself with.
    
    Mark L.

>> I mean to say that the Bible says that "no one come to the Father but by Me" 
>
>What's the 'Me' here? A person or a doctrine? 

Since Jesus was speaking this himself, Me refers to the Person, not the doctrine.

>> and "every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ 
>> is Lord."
>
>Then the requisite to enter heaven is that one bows to the vanity of someone
>who demands to be called Lord? 

This is not showing a requisite.  It is stating a future fact.  Every knee
shall bow and every tongue shall confess, whether they are judged for
heaven or destruction.  Everyone will see the Truth of the fact that
Jesus *IS* Lord, and has no basis in vanity whatsoever.

>Or that one realizes that acceptance of Jesus' doctrine of love and forgiveness
>is the way to the Father?

It is NOT Jesus' doctrine of love and forgiveness, but Jesus HIMSELF who
is the way to heaven.  Jesus is God.

>Thanks for your opinion.

The opinions I have are worth nothing, except where founded in what the
Bible SAYS.  The Bible's "opinions" are life and death and their words 
are found to be certain and reliable.

Mark

Hi Mark and (?) Marcos,

As usual I come in late on this, but it offers an interesting perspective
in this case.  Mark, in .3 you quoted (among others):

Matthew 21
 28  But what think ye? A certain man had two sons; and he came to the first,
and said, Son, go work to day in my vineyard.
 29  He answered and said, I will not: but afterward he repented, and went.
 30  And he came to the second, and said likewise. And he answered and said,
I go, sir: and went not.
 31  Whether of them twain did the will of his father? They say unto him, The
first. Jesus saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That the publicans and
the harlots go into the kingdom of God before you.

which I feel is quite germane to this topic as it developed, but never got
further mention.  So if I may presume to elaborate for you:

The second son had good intentions perhaps.  He is not able to carry out 
those intentions - or worse, he only gave them lip service.  The point of 
worshiping Jesus, equated with faith as noted by others, is the ability 
it alone gives us to do what we, as humans, would not do otherwise.  By 
actions and our natures alone, we all fall short.

One of the basic things the Bible tells us is that this life is not like
a ledger in which our good and bad acts will be tallied.  Time and again
the "heart" or "faith" overrides all else.  Moses was punished severly
for brief lapses of faith, David is favored even after "horrible" acts,
the Centurian is blessed for his faith, not acts.  One of the clearest
wordings of this is Genesis 22 in which:

"Now it came to pass after these things that God tested Abraham..."
(NKJ)

In which faith is demonstrated to be so dominant that it makes an act
"good" that would otherwise be considered "bad".  By the Bible, the
faith so discussed is faith in the God described, the God personified by
Jesus.

Lew

>So if I may presume to elaborate for you:

Presume anytime, Lew.  And thanks.

 ~                     <<< Note 282.20 by VAXRIO::MARCOS >>>
~> One of the basic things the Bible tells us is that this life is not like
~> a ledger in which our good and bad acts will be tallied.  Time and again
~> the "heart" or "faith" overrides all else.  Moses was punished severly
~> for brief lapses of faith, David is favored even after "horrible" acts,
~> the Centurian is blessed for his faith, not acts.
    
~Am I right to infer then that to some the atractiveness of this perspective is
~in that it allows all sort of misdemeanours which are magically forbidden by 
~simply professing that Jesus is the Lord.
    
	not exactly. What it is being said is that God looks at each of us
    from the inside, where men look, (and judge [incorrectly]), from the
    outside. God knows each one of us personally. He tells us this.
    Therefore He can rightly admonish and commend.
    
~I think that's not what the basenote says.
    	you are quite correct!
    
     PDM
    
                                                  

 ~                     <<< Note 282.20 by VAXRIO::MARCOS >>>
~> One of the basic things the Bible tells us is that this life is not like
~> a ledger in which our good and bad acts will be tallied.  Time and again
~> the "heart" or "faith" overrides all else.  Moses was punished severly
~> for brief lapses of faith, David is favored even after "horrible" acts,
~> the Centurian is blessed for his faith, not acts.
    
~Am I right to infer then that to some the atractiveness of this perspective is
~in that it allows all sort of misdemeanours which are magically forbidden by 
~simply professing that Jesus is the Lord.

(I think you mean forgvien and not forbidden)

Forgiveness and grace do not allow for misdemeanors, that is to say,
that misdemeanors and sins are okay.  They are NOT okay and will have
eternally dire consequences.  

That David was forgiven his crimes was the result of a repentant heart.
He was forgiven his sins, but you should take note from the texts that 
his sin had earthly consequences as well, so that even though his sins
were forgiven Him by God, the result of his sins tore his kingdom in
two, a man and a baby were also killed, not to mention other judgments
that followed.

Now as for what forgiveness does do is to remove the guilt of your sins
from you.  Grace is unmerited favor; you can't earn it; it is granted or
bestowed upon you.  God extends His grace to all who will seek it in belief
of Christ's atonement for sin on the cross.  The sins that you and I commit
are not magically forgiven; they are supernaturally forgiven.  The just 
punishment for sin is death - that is, we deserve death for our sins.
This is considered our debt that we owe - our lives for our unrighteousness.
Jesus died on the Cross to pay that debt for you and for me, so that
we did not have to.  So forgiveness isn't something magical and free;
it cost something very dear; but the not-free part was on Christ's tab.
He paid the bill.  All we have to do is accept Christ's payment by faith;
if we reject Christ's payment (atonement), then we still owe our debt.

Phil was right to point out that God looks from the inside.  Word such as
"God forgive me" are not magical to erase the sins of a person unless the
heart attitude is based solidly in repentance and yieldedness to God.
When the heart attitude is there, the words will bear fruit, and though
we may suffer the consequences of our foolish actions here on earth, we
have no record of these wrongs held against us on Judgment Day.

Mark

re.0

	Well this seems to have died down a bit, let me reopen the
discussion with a spin of my own. 8*)

	Firstly, the verse says nothing "going to heaven". Understanding
that is essential to understanding the entire subject. To enter into the
kingdom of the heavens is to put yourself under the ruling of the heavens. To 
enter into the "kingdom of heavens" requires us to do two things: 1) call on the
Lord and 2) to do the will of the heavenly Father. The first suffices us to be
saved (Romans 10:13), but to enter into the kingdom of the heavens we also must
do the will of the heavenly Father. Since entering into the kingdom of the
heavens also requries doing the will of the heavenly Faher, it is clearly
different from entering into the kingdom of God by being regenerated 
(John 3:3,5). Entering the kingdom of God is by birth, entering the kingdom of
the heavens is by living the Life of that birth.

Ace