Conference yukon::christian_v7

    Hi Steve,
    
    A few quick thoughts I have on this subject:
    
>    But what about when the non-believing husband is verbally abusive and
>    threatens physical harm and/or death to the believing wife?
    
    "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister
    is  not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace."
    (1 Cor. 7:15)  I think this is the passage you are referencing.  The
    passage primarily is addressing the matter of the unbelieving spouse
    departing, but yet it also points out that God has called us to peace. 
    I don't believe that God requires a believing spouse to remain in an
    abusive situation.  I agree that
>    Perhaps the believer need not divorce, but separate? 
    is a real possibility in such cases.  (1 Pet. 3:1-2 also is good to
    consider.)  The Lord must give wisdom -- I know one dear sister whose
    (unbelieving) husband forbids here to come out to any of our meetings
    (except on very rare occasions), yet he could not be accused of being
    abusive.  Now, the general "obedience" for Christians is to "not
    forsake the assembling of ourselves together".  In her situation, she
    has not forsaken our gatherings, but rather is prevented coming because
    of her unbelieving husband (yet, I *know* that she is with us in
    spirit).  In this case, she is following 1 Pet 3.
    
>    as I wonder how often our obedience to
>    our government (wherever we live) is disobedience to G-d?
    
    This is exactly the point where we are to obey God rather than man.
    We are told to obey govenment for conscience sake (Rom. 13:5), but when
    we can not in good (Christian) conscience obey government, we are
    called to obey God.
    
    In addition to the obvious examples in the early chapters of Acts,
    consider the book of Daniel.  There are some wonderful examples there.
    1) Daniel and his companions not defiling themselves with the king's
    meat.  To obey God rather than man does not mean that we have to raise
    our fists in defiance of man -- a meek request for favor won the day in
    this case.
    2) Not bowing down to the image -- a bold, defiant stand was called for
    (and honored by God)
    3) Refusing to obey the injunction against prayer to God -- again, a
    bold stand taken by Daniel, not in public display, but by maintaining
    of personal devotion.  Again, God honored his servant.
    
    Mark L.

    	Hi Steve,
    
    			Smith Wigglesworth once locked out his wife
    	out of the house for attending a Christian meeting.  She slept
    	on the steps, and when he opened the door, she woke up, entered
    	with a big, bright smile, - and made him breakfast.  In fact, 
    	that was  what resulted in his conversion, - a chaste conversation,
    	and a loving witness demonstrated in the fear and the reverence
    	of Almighty God.  She did what the Bible says to do:  She won
    	her husband.  I do not know whether or not you are familiar with
    	the ministry of the Wigglesworths, -but there are many books about
    	them.  Most of them focus on Smith because of his powerful faith,
    	but without the loving, caring, Christian witness of his wife,
    	- he might have remained a plumber. 
    
    			I believe that the appropriate thing to do is
    	to pray for him, and to make specific intercessions pertaining 
    	to areas in his life where you know that he is weak and pray 
    	for his salvation.   There is also the possibility of crisis 
    	intervention, i.e., the couple separating temporarily in order 
    	to provide a "time-out" for working the issues out.  
    
    							     	/Greg

    Hi Steve,
    
    Bet you'd guess I have somethings to say about this one. :-) :-)  I'll
    try and write it up and put it in the conference soon.
    
    Nancy

    Steve,
    
    I believe that God gave us minds to think and reason with. Likewise I
    don't believe that we can directly take scripture and apply it to
    issues like this. Instead we need to look at all of God's word as a
    guidance for our actions. So based on that here's my view:
    
    1) God loves HIS people and wants what is best for them, not just to
    follow some rules and regulations. If we can not be that for which God
    has called us to be (a healthy person - mentally and physically) we
    need to consider changing our situation. If God has not given her the
    grace and patience to deal with this man she should leave. Also she
    needs to recognize that the presence of abuse shows that he is not well
    and as is usual in abuse cases the wife rarely is able to cause him to
    change be hanging in there. He needs help and she need to get herself
    into a healthy environment.
    
    2) The woman needs to look at the situation and evaluate her ability
    (given all that is going on) can in some way be a positive influence to
    her husband to draw him to God or cause him to change. If the answer to
    both is no then I believe she should leave her husband (either separate
    or divorce..depending on what is up). 
    
    3) The woman should consider that maybe "tough love" is what is called
    for here..as in leave her husband. 
    
    4) If there is no repentant heart in the man that God could touch than
    she should leave him to the folly of his own sin. 
    
    Whether her "leaving" him should mean divorce or separation should
    depend on what God is telling her (in her heart) and her circumstances.
    Sometimes periods of separation are excellent times of rest to help her
    see what actions she should really take.
    
    Finally, sometimes divorce is the right thing. And sometimes it even
    ends up good. I have a friend who ended up in a marriage where he was
    not treating her well. On top of that she had family dysfunctions that
    she brought into the marriage. After a year of marriage they divorced.
    My counsel to her was supportive of her needs and that the issue was to
    not do things out of rebellion and anger but to try to get grounded in
    God and doing things as he might do them. They did divorce, but after 3
    years God opened the door for their re-marriage. During that time
    period he was able to work on understanding his role as a husband and
    she was able to work through the many issues that she had with her
    family. Today they are happily married with 2 children. 

Note 281.0                       Stay for abuse?                       3 replies
POWDML::SMCCONNELL 
    
    >    I am aware of the Biblical instruction for believing spouses to stay 
>    married to non-believing spouses (how do you know that you [believer] 
>    won't be the vessel used to bring salvation to your non-believing spouse?).
    
>    But what about when the non-believing husband is verbally abusive and
>    threatens physical harm and/or death to the believing wife?

This question hits very close to home.  My ex-husband was very abusive 
and very alcoholic and an unbeliever.  And to some extent still is. :-(
However, as I struggled with the decision of leaving my ex-husband, I 
went to counsel with my Pastor.  My Pastor advised that I not leave 
Rafael or even separate, but to let him leave.  One year later Rafael 
pulled a gun on me [that was loaded], slapped me down a flight of stairs, 
broke my glasses on my face and verbally abused me whenever he came home 
drunk and felt like it.

I began sleeping in the boys bedroom because I knew he wouldn't bother 
me in there [because by this time he wasn't coming home until 2 or 3 in 
the morning].  My children were beginning to show signs of emotional 
suffering.  Matthew my oldest often witnessed his father's abuse towards 
me.  My youngest just kept asking why Papa was never home.

During one emotional outburst Rafael declared he wanted a divorce as he 
was tired of putting up with me and *my* insanity.  *My* insanity, I 
thought... he's right... this situation has effected me as well.
I was very unstable at the time... bitter, angry and most of all  
believing God didn't care one iota about me.

When Rafael said he wanted the divorce with so much hatred in his voice,
I just responded, "Okay."  Simple answer,huh?  The next day I 
made an appointment with an attorney and filed.  ... oops, I filed.  
Hmm, does that mean I unscripturally divorced?  I don't think so, he 
told me to go and do it.  

Then, when he was served the papers, he did everything he possibly could 
to stop the divorce from going through, except one thing... stop 
drinking which was the main source of our problem.  No, I'll go one step 
further it was the only problem.  Rafael is a professional, he has 
charisma, is very handsome and has a very strong presence about him.  
He's the ultimate gentleman and a great father ... WHEN HE'S NOT 
DRINKING! I began to feel guilty, confused and once again as though I 
and the kids were unimportant, only Rafael mattered.  Condemnation began 
to creep in when other believers began to "gossip" about me.  Gossip 
always comes around to the person being gossipped about... ya know :-),
and as a result I found myself thinking some very self condemning 
thoughts... 

Now, on the day we went to court for the preliminary custody/support 
agreement, I begged God for His mercy and if this was sin or out of His 
will for me, to not grant me the custody agreement that I sought [I 
sought full physical custody, due to Rafael's drinking and in California 
men have just as many rights as the woman for custody..this was not 
going to be cut and dry].

At that time it was my habit to read a Proverb a day.. corresponding to 
whatever day it was in that month.  This happened to be 5/21 and in the 
courtroom I sat and opened the scriptures:

Proverbs 21:1  The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the 
rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
  2  Every way of a man is right in his own eyes: but the LORD pondereth 
     the hearts.
  3  To do justice and judgment is more acceptable to the LORD than
     sacrifice.
  
In my case the King was the Judge and I felt comfort that God was in 
control.  My prayer was answered before it was even uttered.  That God 
would control the outcome.

Verse 3 gave me great comfort in knowing that sacrifice was not always 
what God demanded.  The woman has traditionally been taught that no 
matter what, you "Stand by your man, give him two arms to cling to" 
[Tammy Wynette in 196?].  And many women have been severely abused as a 
result of this tradition.

Each circumstance is delicate... each circumstance unique.  Therefore, 
each circumstance *must* be handled individually as the will of God is 
individual.  

If a woman and her children are in an emotional or physical abusive 
environment I wouldn't suggest hastily leaving unless it's life 
threatening [that would include the woman feeling suicidal without any 
physical abuse from the husband].  Why?  Because I believe that Pastoral 
counsel is always the first step to resolve marital difficulties, even 
when abuse is involved.

If the person whom is being abusive has not committed adultery or is 
unsaved, then a divorce is permitted, but remarriage becomes another 
issue.... and another topic... which we went round and round in the lat 
version of CHRISTIAN.

Divorce is always permitted, but the consequences of the action depend 
on the individual situation.  

>    I believe the same principle applies in marriage with the injunction
>    for believers to stay married to non-believers.  I think that at the
>    moment the non-believer becomes abusive (and very real death threats
>    are certainly abusive!), the believing spouse is freed from the
>    injunction to stay.  Again - I'm not talking about one heated argument,
>    I'm talking about a consistent pattern of verbal threats and abuse.
 
I would take issue with this... because the scripture states let him/her 
depart.  Now if the believer wishes to leave and not remarry, then so be 
it.  

>    Perhaps the believer need not divorce, but separate?

That would be my suggestion.  If then the unbeliever wished to divorce 
at a later time, the believer is not in bondage.

    
Nancy
    

    I can't imagine God expecting anyone to tolerate an abusive situation.

    -1
    
    Mike, 
    
    Did you think my note indicated such?

>    I can't imagine God expecting anyone to tolerate an abusive situation.

There would be some who might consioder otherwise, citing Job as a primary
example.

MM

    Hi Mark,
    
    If you hadn't written this, I would have forgotten writing this topic.
    
    After getting some considered advice off-line and in the "prayer-line",
    I understand things a bit different than when I wrote .0.
    
    Not much time to explain, other than to say, perhaps the L-rd doesn't
    gurantee even physical well-being in exhange for our obedience....
    
    Ultimately, each person *must* be clear with G-d what to do and not to
    do.  There is no way to make blanket statements either way in a forum
    like this....
    
    More later perhaps...
    
    Steve

>    Not much time to explain, other than to say, perhaps the L-rd doesn't
>    gurantee even physical well-being in exhange for our obedience....
    
    {%INCLUDE 'SARCASM'}
    
    Well that's not what Ken Hagin, Ken Copeland, John Avanzini, and the
    rest of the Health & Wealth Co. say!

>    Ultimately, each person *must* be clear with G-d what to do and not to
>    do.  There is no way to make blanket statements either way in a forum
>    like this....

Blanket statements don't often cover one's toes on a cold night, do they?  :-)

Your statement is sound wisdom, Steve.